Kargil war a disaster, Musharraf tried to cover it up

[ReluctantT]

Debunking Pakistan's claims about the Kargil [ Images ] conflict, Lieutenant General (Retired) Shahid Aziz, then head of the Inter Services Intelligence’s Analysis Wing, has said regular soldiers, not rebels fighting for Kashmir [ Images ]’s independence, took part in the "meaningless" 1999 war.

The former officer also accused the then Pakistan Army [ Images ] chief General Pervez Musharraf [ Images ] of a "cover-up".

The Pakistani officer said whatever little he knew, took a while to emerge, "since General Musharraf had put a tight lid on Kargil".

To say that occupying empty spaces along the Line of Control [ Images ] was not a violation of any agreement and came under the purview of the local commander is astounding. This area was with the Indians as a result of the Shimla Agreement, and there had been no major violation of the Line of Control since 1971," he said.

He said the “boys” were comforted by their commander's assessment that no serious response would come.

“But it did -- wave after wave, supported by massive air bursting artillery and repeated air attacks. The enemy still couldn't manage to capture the peaks, and instead filled in the valleys. Cut off and forsaken, our posts started collapsing one after the other, though the general publicly denied it," he said.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/kargil-was-a-disaster-musharraf-tried-to-cover-it-up/20130127.htm



Is there any truth in this or just another publicity stunt from a ex ISI man??

 

[the Great Khan]

partially..bit of sensationalism there but some truth to it.

no doubt Mushy sahib completley mis calculated the response but even then the PA were a mere 10 or 20 days away from a spectacular victory. But again the further response of the indians was also not factored in. also one must understand the indians had been making aggressive manouvers on the front for weeks before hence the response.

Mushy also did not consult the airforce or the navy even though he should have...

read Shuja nawaz's crossed swords for more..also shireen mazari wrote a treatise on the subject too..

 

[Jeetu111]

Musharaff exposed for his lies in past . I am surprised some of my Pakistani friends here think he was good for their nation ....on the flip side,some pp'ers call him Busharaff which is a apt name

 

[velu]

pakistan do this to us time and again and then they claim we have smaller hearts

 

[the Great Khan]

pakistan do this to us time and again and then they claim we have smaller hearts

Yes yes..becharay indians have never done anything to pakistann..becharay indians..

 

[cricketjoshila]

The whole article came out in some Pakistani newspaper today.Well Mussharaff and his.hysterionics.I wonder how many times these generala miscalculate?48,65,99?

Why not let there be peace couple.of decades and that will.help develop trust and may be resolve the issues.I mean its near damn impossible for Pakistan to attack and then conquer India.

 

[Down2Earth]

there are conflicting stories from both sides of the border and we'll never know the real truth

 

[Jeetu111]

there are conflicting stories from both sides of the border and we'll never know the real truth

what conflicting stories ? Indian govt said PA were the kargil perps & Mushy & your govt denied it- today they are exposed again .

 

[Down2Earth]

what conflicting stories ? Indian govt said PA were the kargil perps & Mushy & your govt denied it- today they are exposed again .

indian soldiers also said how they were unorganized and got badly hurt in the war, so what do you want to believe?

 

[Jeetu111]

indian soldiers also said how they were unorganized and got badly hurt in the war, so what do you want to believe?

cannot understand your post at all buddy .

 

[Down2Earth]

cannot understand your post at all buddy .

just trying to emphasize how all the stories are conflicting and we will never know which one's accurate. likewise, i cannot say for sure if musharraf covered this up...

 

[the Great Khan]

The whole article came out in some Pakistani newspaper today.Well Mussharaff and his.hysterionics.I wonder how many times these generala miscalculate?48,65,99?

Why not let there be peace couple.of decades and that will.help develop trust and may be resolve the issues.I mean its near damn impossible for Pakistan to attack and then conquer India.

yes lets have peace from both sides, simply blaming one side for all the ill's doesnt generally bring peace. I wont go into the miscalcualtions thing youve presented since it's factually incorrect!

with regards to kargil ,the right operation at the wrong time is how I look at it.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Pakistan cannot afford a full fledged war with India. This is not chest thumping but a proven and well understood fact. In that regard, any attempt to take on India through aggression is gonna bring tremendous loss of life and wealth. Kargil is not the only one, in fact all wars have been disastrous for Pakistan if you only start counting what you lost rather than counting how many Indian fighter jets you shot down or army men killed. To acknowledge the might of a bigger country is not cowardice. India has issues with China but we don't engage them in battle and vice versa the Chinese don't do it either despite having larger military than ours and having more resources to back up a full fledged war.


Pakistan needs to be more responsible for it's own people. So far the attitude has been that if you will sink, you'd take us down with you. That's a shame.

 

[Bhaijaan]

^

The above comment did not take into account divine intervention.

 

[Jeetu111]

^

The above comment did not take into account divine intervention.

lol. you are funny but what divine intervention ?


ps: f_c : why not a mod anymore ?

 

[jeetu]

yes lets have peace from both sides, simply blaming one side for all the ill's doesn't generally bring peace. I wont go into the miscalculations thing you've presented since it's factually incorrect!

with regards to kargil ,the right operation at the wrong time is how I look at it.

I think the timing was perfect but operation was foolhardy.
Pak Army was getting marginalized before Kargil and India-Pak peace was on upswing.
Army ruled Pakistan soon after Kargil.

 

[Bhaijaan]

lol. you are funny but what divine intervention ?

Seems like you are unaware of the prophecy.

ps: f_c : why not a mod anymore ?

Happily retired.

 

[Bhaijaan]

PA were a mere 10 or 20 days away from a spectacular victory.

How?

 

[Jeetu111]

How?

just an excuse imo .

 

[Wazeeri]

Pakistan needs to be more responsible for it's own people. So far the attitude has been that if you will sink, you'd take us down with you. That's a shame.

If there is ever going to be peace then both sides need to acknowledge their mistakes and faults. The Indian citizen's reasoning is drowned by the sensationalist chanting and background music of a typical indian new channel.

Pakistan did not attempt anything which India had not done before. India started the cross border terrorism by supporting and training the Mukta Bahnis who were going around killing non-bengalis. Pakistan started supporting the Kashmiris as late as the 80s. India used the tactic of taking over vacant positions in Siachen, Pakistan's Kargil adventure was in the very late 90s.

As for the cost of war, all wars cost something to all participants. India's wars with Pakistan cost them decades of internal peace with one separatist movement after another sponsored probably by us.

This new age of missile war doesn't care for the relative size of the two countries. It's not going to leave any winners.

 

[Wazeeri]

How?

India's army in Siachen could not last too long without supplies. 20 days is far too long, they would have surrendered a lot earlier.

Pakistan should have engaged fully.

 

[Itachi]

If there is ever going to be peace then both sides need to acknowledge their mistakes and faults. The Indian citizen's reasoning is drowned by the sensationalist chanting and background music of a typical indian new channel.

Pakistan did not attempt anything which India had not done before. India started the cross border terrorism by supporting and training the Mukta Bahnis who were going around killing non-bengalis. Pakistan started supporting the Kashmiris as late as the 80s. India used the tactic of taking over vacant positions in Siachen, Pakistan's Kargil adventure was in the very late 90s.

As for the cost of war, all wars cost something to all participants. India's wars with Pakistan cost them decades of internal peace with one separatist movement after another sponsored probably by us.

This new age of missile war doesn't care for the relative size of the two countries. It's not going to leave any winners.

let me ask a simple question. How many times pakistan officially attacked india and india attacked pakistan? Put emphasis on officially. Just the numbers.

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

Diplomatic Disaster.....
Vajpayee dubbed it War-like situation....

 

[Itachi]

India's army in Siachen could not last too long without supplies. 20 days is far too long, they would have surrendered a lot earlier.

Pakistan should have engaged fully.

assumptions.

India could have taken karachi in 1971. You know the reason why indira gandhi asked army to fall back?

 

[oyei]

^^^ altaf hussain was born in 1971

 

[Jeetu111]

let me ask a simple question. How many times pakistan officially attacked india and india attacked pakistan? Put emphasis on officially. Just the numbers.

no one will answer these questions in a straight forward manner .

 

[ReluctantT]

Hope Mushy gives a interview to Arnab now

 

[Garuda]

Hope Mushy gives a interview to Arnab now

Mushy will change the objective of the Kargil war in a moment. Then he will declare that the objective achieved and hence he is better than Alexander the Great.

 

[the Great Khan]

let me ask a simple question. How many times pakistan officially attacked india and india attacked pakistan? Put emphasis on officially. Just the numbers.

Pakistan attacks India officially = none
India attacks Pakistan officially= 3

 

[Nitin Tomer]

Pakistan attacks India officially = none
India attacks Pakistan officially= 3

You live in an alternate universe?

 

[Senman]

What happened to Namak_Halal? its very sad to see a potential 10-page thread struggling like this.

 

[the Great Khan]

You live in an alternate universe?

really why is that?

 

[Senman]

Indians should appreciate Pervez Musharraf, before 1999 world opinion was divided when it comes to India-Pakistan but Mr. Musharraf singlehandedly turned the world's support towards us.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Indians should appreciate Pervez Musharraf, before 1999 world opinion was divided when it comes to India-Pakistan but Mr. Musharraf singlehandedly turned the world's support towards us.

Typical Indians always looking for support from others, a scavenger policy. But this is understandable since you have the Red Dragon on one side and the Green Army on the other. It must be hard being hated in your own neighbourhood.

 

[insaftak]

This is some high level politics by Nawaz Sharif and CO..


Lol Successfully diverted attention away from PPP's BJP Province

 

[Singham]

Good to see Pakistanis accepting their mistakes and I hope current Pakistan politicians learn from their past mistakes.

 

[Bhaijaan]

PA were a mere 10 or 20 days away from a spectacular victory. ..

How?

Bump for tGK.

 

[Senman]

Typical Indians always looking for support from others, a scavenger policy. But this is understandable since you have the Red Dragon on one side and the Green Army on the other. It must be hard being hated in your own neighbourhood.

Mr. Musharraf, not a hero? he was for us, according to me. People like Mr.Musharraf gave us confidence to look only at 'Red Dragon' because you don't often see a retired general running away from his own country )

 

[carbon11]

This is some high level politics by Nawaz Sharif and CO..


Lol Successfully diverted attention away from PPP's BJP Province

At the height of the Kargil conflict, former Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is said to have told then US President Bill Clinton that he was prepared to help resolve the crisis if India committed to settle the ‘larger issue’ of Kashmir in a specific time-frame, but the American leader snubbed him saying it would amount to a ‘nuclear blackmail.’ When Sharif visited Washington in 1999 to discuss Kargil with Clinton, he insisted, ‘I am prepared to help resolve the current crisis in Kargil but India must commit to resolve the larger issue in a specific time-frame,’ former US deputy secretary of State Strobe Talbot writes in his new book Engaging India – Diplomacy, Democracy and the Bomb. ‘Clinton came as close as I had ever seen to blowing up in a meeting with a foreign leader,’ and told Sharif, ‘If I were the Indian Prime Minister, I would never do that. I would be crazy to do it. It would be nuclear blackmail. If you proceed with this line, I will have no leverage with them. If I tell you what you think you want me to say, I will be stripped of all influence with the Indians.’ ‘I am not – and the Indians are not – going to let you get away with blackmail, and I will not permit any characterization of this meeting that suggests I am giving in to blackmail,’ Talbot writes, adding, Clinton also refuted Sharif’s accusation that the Indians were the instigators of the crisis and intransigents in the ongoing standoff. When Sharif insisted he had to have something to show for his trip to the US beyond unconditional surrender over Kargil, Clinton pointed to the dangers of nuclear war if Pakistan did not return to its previous positions. Seeing they were getting nowhere, Clinton told Sharif he had a statement ready to release to press that would lay all the blame for the crisis on Pakistan . ‘Sharif was ashen.’ ‘Clinton had worked himself back into real anger – his face flushed, eyes narrowed, lips pursed, cheek muscles pulsing, fists clenched. He said it was crazy enough for Sharif to have let his military violate the Line of Control, start a border war with India, and now prepare nuclear forces (U.S. had received intelligence Pakistan was preparing nuclear forces for attack against India) for action,’ Talbot says in his book. ‘Sharif seemed beaten, physically and emotionally’ and denied he had given any order with regard to nuclear weaponry. Taking a break, Clinton spoke to then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee over phone and told him what had happened until then. ‘What do you want me to say?’ Vajpayee asked. ‘Nothing,’ Clinton replied, he just wanted to show he was holding.”

 

[carbon11]

Talbott writes that Nawaz Sharif a number of times asked Clinton to mediate on Kashmir between India and Pakistan as America did between Israel and Egypt but Clinton would express his inability saying that for mediation both the parties should approach the mediator. In this case India was not interested. But it seems that Clinton was definitely interested in easing out situation between the two nuclear neighbors as he mentioned to his advisors. They had a solution of the problem by dividing Kashmir along the LOC and giving more autonomy to Indian –held Kashmir. Clinton might have personally helped in its solution but according to Talbott, Kargil episode was yet another event that disappointed Clinton enormously. He has written in details what happened between Clinton and Nawaz Sharif on that occasion under the heading From Kargil to Blair House. He writes about the Lahore Summit between Vajpai and Sharif and Musharraf’s elevation as Chief of Army Staff in these words,” It quickly became apparent that the new chief of the army staff Parvez Musharraf had even less regard for Sharif and the civilian leadership than his predecessor Karamat. In particular Musharraf found the Lahore Summit galling” About Kargil he writes,”The American Government followed the conflict with growing alarm which could easily become a nuclear cataclysm…Tony (Zinni) warned Musharraf that India would cross the LOC itself if Pakistan did not pull back. Musharraf professed to be unimpressed. Back in Washington the administration let it be known that if Sharif did not order a pullback we would hold up $ 100 million IMF loan that Pakistan sorely needed….. We did not know whether Sharif had personally ordered the infiltration above Kargil (doubtful) reluctantly acquiesced in it (more likely) or not even known about it until after it happened (possible). But there was no doubt that he now realized that it was colossal blunder.”


Talbott writes that “through our ambassador in Islamabad Sharif begged Clinton to come to his rescue with a plan that would stop the fighting and set the stage for a US-brokered solution to Kashmir,” In reply to Sharif’s phone call Clinton said that he would consider it only if Pakistan first unilaterally withdrew. ”The next day Sharif called to say that he was packing his bags and getting ready to fly immediately to Washington--- never mind that he has not been invited. ‘This guy‘s coming literally on a wing and a prayer ,’said the president,” Sharif was not given the proper protocol and was received by Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia and brought to Blair House who informed the Americans that ‘they should be prepared to deal with a man who was not just distraught about the crisis but terrified of the reaction from Musharraf and the military if he gave in to American pressure.’

 

[the Great Khan]

Bump for tGK.

ok maybe im exaggerating but if seen from a purely military objective point of view they were 10-20 days away from achieving their primary aobjective of cutting the highway. If the Indian army were unable to dislodge the combined mujahideen /PA forces from the heights and posts , India would have faced a major dilemma: Attack the international border at Sindh, sialkot etc or sit back and let the PA dictate terms in kashmir.

Benazir in a famous meeting in 1996 was prsented with what eventually became the kargil plan by Mush when he was in MO. And after she listended to the plan asked him " well after you ahve achieved your objective what is going to happen the next day?"

Mush as is his wont replied that they would see the chand sitara over srinagar. BB simply said she thought he was naive in the extremme if he thinks the americans and everyone else would let Pakistan do that. That plan was shelved. In its place the kargil plan was developed with modifications. I have no idea what the modifications were.

Ultimatley Kargil as a military operation was brilliant in its execution and would have achieved its objectives. Politically we were soundly defeated and sent packing.

The PA learnt a very painful lesson from this. Future wars willl not be won on the battlefield but in the boardroom.

It also demonstrated the futility of a war between India and pakistan and should have hastened both sides to sit down and talk. As we are locked in a stalemate and cannot afford a war. Paksitan cannot fight a conventional conflict for logner than maybe 2 weeks before we go nuclear. India could fight for maybe three 4 or 5 months at full pelt before it starts to wear down. Hence our nuke threshhold is so low.

also the 99 coup against nawaz, Mush had no idea what the hell was going on. Abd I know this because I have spoken to some of the officers involved in that. Also spoke to some sipahis who fought in kargil and they said and I quote " India buri dalari kay saath luray thay" .. they also blamed nawaz for giving the orders to retreat etc. I remember one sipahi told me he was ordered to move out and the mujahids simply said you cna go, we are not moving from our positions. So being the sympathetic chap he was he left them his provisions and moved out. The mujahids then fought till they ran out of ammunition. There are other stories too.

One of the things the PA guys noticed was how the Indians just kept on sending bodies into the way of obvious machine gun nests. They mowed down plenty. Was brutal and very uneccessary.

 

[the Great Khan]

Talbott writes that Nawaz Sharif a number of times asked Clinton to mediate on Kashmir between India and Pakistan as America did between Israel and Egypt but Clinton would express his inability saying that for mediation both the parties should approach the mediator. In this case India was not interested. But it seems that Clinton was definitely interested in easing out situation between the two nuclear neighbors as he mentioned to his advisors. They had a solution of the problem by dividing Kashmir along the LOC and giving more autonomy to Indian –held Kashmir. Clinton might have personally helped in its solution but according to Talbott, Kargil episode was yet another event that disappointed Clinton enormously. He has written in details what happened between Clinton and Nawaz Sharif on that occasion under the heading From Kargil to Blair House. He writes about the Lahore Summit between Vajpai and Sharif and Musharraf’s elevation as Chief of Army Staff in these words,” It quickly became apparent that the new chief of the army staff Parvez Musharraf had even less regard for Sharif and the civilian leadership than his predecessor Karamat. In particular Musharraf found the Lahore Summit galling” About Kargil he writes,”The American Government followed the conflict with growing alarm which could easily become a nuclear cataclysm…Tony (Zinni) warned Musharraf that India would cross the LOC itself if Pakistan did not pull back. Musharraf professed to be unimpressed. Back in Washington the administration let it be known that if Sharif did not order a pullback we would hold up $ 100 million IMF loan that Pakistan sorely needed….. We did not know whether Sharif had personally ordered the infiltration above Kargil (doubtful) reluctantly acquiesced in it (more likely) or not even known about it until after it happened (possible). But there was no doubt that he now realized that it was colossal blunder.”


Talbott writes that “through our ambassador in Islamabad Sharif begged Clinton to come to his rescue with a plan that would stop the fighting and set the stage for a US-brokered solution to Kashmir,” In reply to Sharif’s phone call Clinton said that he would consider it only if Pakistan first unilaterally withdrew. ”The next day Sharif called to say that he was packing his bags and getting ready to fly immediately to Washington--- never mind that he has not been invited. ‘This guy‘s coming literally on a wing and a prayer ,’said the president,” Sharif was not given the proper protocol and was received by Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia and brought to Blair House who informed the Americans that ‘they should be prepared to deal with a man who was not just distraught about the crisis but terrified of the reaction from Musharraf and the military if he gave in to American pressure.’

from the military point of view Nawaz simply lost his cahoona's. If he had the balls in the first place he would have stopped Mushy from authorising it in the first place. But once he was on board he should have had the gumption to go ahead all the way! Clinton couldnt do a damn thing other than clench his fist. Nawz if he had the guts could simply had said we are involved in a defensive operation and will call for a ceasefire in a few days time. This is usual stuff on the LOC etc etc. But alas he bottled it. and then was removed for his stupidity.And to think we may have this fool as our PM again is disturbing!

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

Bump for tGK.

Views from V P Malik. Tgk is right. They lost it on table. Just like we lost on Shimala agreement. But atleast we got UN out because of Shimala agrement. Pakistan got nothing except irresponsible naughty boy medal

Militarily, for Pakistan, this situation could not have been better. Its troops were inside India and had occupied strategic heights along the highway. Had they stayed, they could have cut off the supply route to Leh, seriously affecting our ability to move, re-deploy or augment troops from one sector to another.

They were poised to launch operations in Turtuk close to southern Siachen glacier and re-draw the LoC in Dras-Kargil-Batalik-Turtuk sectors. Intensified, enlarged or prolonged fighting would have enabled them to draw the world’s attention to Jammu and Kashmir and a war between two nuclear nations.

 

[the Great Khan]

Views from V P Malik. Tgk is right. They lost it on table. Just like we lost on Shimala agreement. But atleast we got UN out because of Shimala agrement. Pakistan got nothing except irresponsible naughty boy medal

exactly. Militarily we were in a very strong position. V P Malik is right and I have read this before. Also from speaking from PA chaps.

See now turn this the other way. Wht if it was india who were the ones who had initiated kargil etc. I can guaranteee you one thing Vajpayee would have told clinton to go jump in a river and would never have gone against his brass. All branches would have been united and would have dealt with issues behind close doors after the event.

But when you have dumb ***** like ch. Nisar and Nawaz ganja in charge youve got no chance.

A strong central govt would have a) probably not green lighted the op because they would have calculated the int mood and held off for a more appropriate time.
b) once given the green light would have fully backed the operation and not dithered.

Im telling you Clinton couldnt do anything. They would have had to sue for a ceaefire within 10 days and by then we would have met many of our objectives. At worst we would have gotten the kashmir situation on the agenda and perhaps a durable agreement could have been reached? who knows. Nawaz bottled it and vajpayee wiped sweat off his brough knowing he had just dodged a massive bullet!

 

[Zarrar]

The above passages from Talbot's book proves once and for all, Mush's main motivation in signing Pakistan up for US war of Terror that has literally sent Pakistan back to stone age, was his own international legitimacy...everybody knew his insidious role in the Kargil War, and when he over threw Sharif, his stock sank even further in the eyes of the global leaders...nobody respected and/or willing to give him any benefit of doubt...

It was this approval of the global lot he was seeking, not the phantom threat by an undersecretary, Armitage of stone age...

What a fraudster this Mush was...

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

Yes, But didn't Benazir once claimed in a interviewthat Mush came to her as well with same plan and she bluntly refused?
I blame Nawaz Sharif for war and then putting the blame on Mush while he was in charge....

 

[cricketjoshila]

The thing is Pakistan couldnt have stayed on those peaks without a full fledged support from Pak Army which would have made the Pak Army visible.Remember in those days all day light talks were of Mujhadeens on peaks supported by Pak Army.A full fledged Pak Army support would have meant India drawing the battle lines in other sectors as well and a full war.In case of ceasefire remember in history neither India or Pak have been able to hold each other's territories and Vajpayee would have told that a ceasefire would mean complete withdrawl by Pakistan else India would continue the war.

So Pakistan's hope for any territorial gains would have been dashed.As i said Pakistani Generals have been miscalculating India's response since 1948.and Benazir Bhutto was right that plan was flawed and naive.How can you expect a Nuclear power with conventional superiority of almost 2:1 sit back and watch its territories being taken and not do anything?

Regarding Nuclear Threshold,India knows full well that Pakistan's threshold is low and may pre empt any strikes.Also possesing nuclear weapons and using them are totally different things.No country except perhaps USA has the leverage to launch an attack.Unless of course there is a hint that you are yourself facing an inevitable nuclear attack and want to pre empt it.

 

[carbon11]

The above passages from Talbot's book proves once and for all, Mush's main motivation in signing Pakistan up for US war of Terror that has literally sent Pakistan back to stone age, was his own international legitimacy...everybody knew his insidious role in the Kargil War, and when he over threw Sharif, his stock sank even further in the eyes of the global leaders...nobody respected and/or willing to give him any benefit of doubt...

It was this approval of the global lot he was seeking, not the phantom threat by an undersecretary, Armitage of stone age...

What a fraudster this Mush was...

how the hell have u linked this with the war on terror

i'm not condoning what musharraf did after 2001

but to blame him for 1999 kargil is ridicolous

the kargil plan was excellent only executed at the wrong time


pakistan was already alienated by nuclear tests, the same book tells of clinton begging ganja, and pakistan generals not to respond to india nuclear test, ganja was offered all sorts of money packages weapons and was sweating to agree, but pakistan generals overuled him and said the nuclear test is the right of pakistan people they will never forgive us , if we do not respond to indian tests.


the kargil fiasco is 100% fault of the ganja.

although i agree timing was wrong and the pakistan armys commitment to carry on , imo the kargil plan should have been carried out in when the world got commited to iraq in 2003, so pakistan should have excuted the plan in december 2003 infiltrate and caught indians by suprise in june 2004.

The thing is Pakistan couldnt have stayed on those peaks without a full fledged support from Pak Army

those peaks could have easily been supplied from pakistan side of loc since they border the loc from pakistan side thats how pakistan occupied them in first place and still holds the most strategic peak 5353 right under indian noses.,

pakistan could have started using its artillery from skardu sector, on indian troops and also as cover fire to let infiltration and fighters take in supplies further.

india for 80 days attacked kargil peaks and could not remove around a thousand irregulars.

thats why they ran off to usa to put pressure on pakistan. who were threatening pakistan by removing the imf loan aid, saudi oil to pakistan.

talbot book is proof of that, how clinton bullied ganja into a corner and broke him in half.

with pakistan isolated ,ganja screwing things over on the political diplomatic front pakistan had no choice but to withdraw.

infact if pakistan had stayed on those peaks, india would have had to withdraw from siachen since they would have run out of supplies.
pakistan would have cut of the road to leh where siachen is supplied from.

the operation vijay would have had to be abandoned.
in kargil in oct-nov due to snow and arctic weather conditions.
that means india would have had had to return in june the earliest, by that time pakistan would have dug itself deeper into kargil and fortified its defences
with the bonus of having the advantage of high ground and cutting of the road to leh would have had the indians by the short and curlies.


at the same time infiltration from azad kashmir side in form of kashmir mujahideen into poonch area and kupwara keeping the indians engaged there, indian presence in kashmir would be in serious jeopardy.

as for indian nukes, jaswant singh said nuclear option even during kargil was never on the cards.
he said india did not have the means to deliver a nuclear bomb , since india had not developed the ability to fit a warhead on a missile during kargil war.


and if 1000 irregulars could cause so much problem for a large indian force, the indian force that attacked the pakistanis numbered 30000, indians invading the IB or crossing the loc is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

when indian aircraft tryed to violate pakistan loc they were shot down 2 fighter aircraft , 1 helicopter, and 1 canbera which had to make an emergency landing because it was damaged.


if pakistan had commited and not withdrawn it would have forced india to the table over kashmir issue.

threat of escalation on IB and nuclear war were empty notions.

 

[Garuda]

Kargil wouldn't have solved Kashmir at all.

What do you guys think India would have done if Pakistan had cut down the highway no 1 ? Do you think India would have just handed over Kashmir and people would have gone on their work next day ?

In a way, it was good that Mush's plan was failed. Otherwise it would have escalated into bigger war in other sectors.

 

[Zarrar]

how the hell have u linked this with the war on terror

i'm not condoning what musharraf did after 2001

but to blame him for 1999 kargil is ridicolous

the kargil plan was excellent only executed at the wrong time

Carbon11, or should I say Brig. Rashid Qureshi...you need to calm down and take off your Mush's moderately enlightened hogwash tinted glasses off...

You yourself are conceding that Pakistan was isolated for whatever reason around that time period...none more severly then Mush, with directly culpability on two of the major counts, Kargil fiasco and Military coup, besides nuclear tests...

Knowing his tacky attention seeking personality, he couldn't continue staying isolated...

His whole rationale for signing up for War of Terror was his personal gain...and that's what he did..

Kargil in insolation has very little to do with 9/11, but if you put Mush's myopic, selfish, and opportunistic gambits....there is a direct connection....

 

[cricketjoshila]

those peaks could have easily been supplied from pakistan side of loc since they border the loc from pakistan side thats how pakistan occupied them in first place and still holds the most strategic peak 5353 right under indian noses.,

pakistan could have started using its artillery from skardu sector, on indian troops and also as cover fire to let infiltration and fighters take in supplies further.

india for 80 days attacked kargil peaks and could not remove around a thousand irregulars.

thats why they ran off to usa to put pressure on pakistan. who were threatening pakistan by removing the imf loan aid, saudi oil to pakistan.

talbot book is proof of that, how clinton bullied ganja into a corner and broke him in half.

with pakistan isolated ,ganja screwing things over on the political diplomatic front pakistan had no choice but to withdraw.

infact if pakistan had stayed on those peaks, india would have had to withdraw from siachen since they would have run out of supplies.
pakistan would have cut of the road to leh where siachen is supplied from.

the operation vijay would have had to be abandoned.
in kargil in oct-nov due to snow and arctic weather conditions.
that means india would have had had to return in june the earliest, by that time pakistan would have dug itself deeper into kargil and fortified its defences
with the bonus of having the advantage of high ground and cutting of the road to leh would have had the indians by the short and curlies.


at the same time infiltration from azad kashmir side in form of kashmir mujahideen into poonch area and kupwara keeping the indians engaged there, indian presence in kashmir would be in serious jeopardy.

as for indian nukes, jaswant singh said nuclear option even during kargil was never on the cards.
he said india did not have the means to deliver a nuclear bomb , since india had not developed the ability to fit a warhead on a missile during kargil war.


and if 1000 irregulars could cause so much problem for a large indian force, the indian force that attacked the pakistanis numbered 30000, indians invading the IB or crossing the loc is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

when indian aircraft tryed to violate pakistan loc they were shot down 2 fighter aircraft , 1 helicopter, and 1 canbera which had to make an emergency landing because it was damaged.


if pakistan had commited and not withdrawn it would have forced india to the table over kashmir issue.

threat of escalation on IB and nuclear war were empty notions.

The Point 5353 is useless because its surrounded on all sides by India held peaks.According to the Army it was never occupied by the Indian Army but they tried to occupy it during the KArgil war where they captured two other peaks which were at the best disputed it seems,point 4875 and 4251.

If Pakistan Army would have directly started firing it would have given India the excuse of going for a full fledged war where India held a 2:1 conventional superiority.Indian Navy was already preparing to blockade the Karachi port and Nawaz Sharif accepted that Pakistan had only 6 days of supplies left in case a war had happened.

India couldnot remove the 1000 irregulars?What are you on?

1.They were not irregulars,they were your army men.

2.India had captured 70%-80% of peaks already

Yes of course your Army refused to take the body of their own slain men.Not even giving them the respect they deserved.

India could have easily opened a number of fronts along the LOC and the other sectors and run the Pakistani army thin.They did this in 1965 also.

And who told you that India had to withdraw by June?Dreamt of it?Did you?

Pakistan didnt have the means to fight a long war with India all it hoped for was that there would be a very short limited war and then UN/International pressure would allow a ceasefire and Pakistan would take the positions.Anther miscalculation by your generals(4th one i guess since 1947) on what would be India's response.India responded vehemently and IT WAS YOUR PM WHO WAS IN WASHINGTON NOT THE INDIAN PM.And as you so nicely point out that your generals overrule your PM why didnt they do it in this case?

India would do what it wants,its not malleable to International pressure as Pakistan.KAshmir issue would come to the table when India wants.Thats what has happened.Learn from History.

The Tiger hill complex was already in Indian hands by July 7.So Pakistan couldnt have cut off any supplies anywhere any how.It was taking heavy losses and as most of your generals except Mussharaf has said,it was a BLUNDER.

Lets assume the war went nuclear.All of India's Eastern region and Southern region defences are beyond the reach of Pakistani missiles(Ghauri 2 was handed over only in 2003) India would have retaliated with its higher yield ThermoNuclear bombs delivered through AirCrafts.As you know in 1999 No Pakistani aircraft had BVR capability while Indian Airforce had BVR capability.So there was no question of Pakistan going nuclear and India not retaliating.

Pakistani Generals living in the Cuckoo land of 1 Pak soldier equals 8 Indians started something believing that they would occupy the territory of another nation which outguns them 2:1 conventionally and also posses higher yield ThermoNuclear device cmpared to Pakistan's HEU bombs and not to forget with significantly more economic clout and diplomatic leverage would sit quiet and watch.

So finally Musharaff had to run to Sharif and ask him to go to Washington and get a ceasefire and ask India to come to negotiation table.That was the only option left.But India refused to negotiate and said it will take the peaks back whether Pakistan withdraws or not.Your generals got what was coming to them,a PHAINTA.

BTW look up your history,see what has happened everytime a General has taken power in Islamabad.1965,71,1999,War againist Terror,Radicalization of Pakistan...who were in power during these times?

 

[Jeetu111]

top post ^

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

pakistan was already alienated by nuclear tests, the same book tells of clinton begging ganja, and pakistan generals not to respond to india nuclear test, ganja was offered all sorts of money packages weapons and was sweating to agree, but pakistan generals overuled him and said the nuclear test is the right of pakistan people they will never forgive us , if we do not respond to indian tests.



and if 1000 irregulars could cause so much problem for a large indian force, the indian force that attacked the pakistanis numbered 30000, indians invading the IB or crossing the loc is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

when indian aircraft tryed to violate pakistan loc they were shot down 2 fighter aircraft , 1 helicopter, and 1 canbera which had to make an emergency landing because it was damaged.


if pakistan had commited and not withdrawn it would have forced india to the table over kashmir issue.

The fact is we won the Kargil diplomatically doesnt by any means suggest that India didn't had military might and options available win in it back. Infact it is allways military which will get you peace if you have war mongering neighbour like Pakistan...
Some Pakistanis are living in cuckoo land when they claim that Pakistan can militarily achieve a solution to Kashmir.
Not only Pakistani generals but Indian generals could also assess that If we didnt start full fledged war we will be loosing a lot more territory. Thats why V P mlik wrote internally to the Army Jawans about getting prepared for full fledged war and Indian troop mobilzation all across the border.

I for a movement wouldnt think US cared about us Indians unless we made that absolutely clear that we wanted our land back. Nawaz visiting US uninvited and Atal snubbing the invitation very clearly meant to US/UN how serious Indians were about it.


If Pakistan snubbed US/UN for nuclear test it could have snubbed US and rest of world for Kargil too... But why it couldnt? Simply because India was ready to use all its three forces against Pakistan and pakistan gives a damn about Kashmiris when Pakistanis are at risk.

I dont think Nawaz and Mush are fools to think that they can wage and win a direct war against indian army. Their best bet while planning kargil must have been to ensure that rest of world sees as kashmiri militancy and no direct involvement of Pakistani army. Howwever they failed to maintain that diplomatic position with first few days because Indian army forced them to admit/involve in the war...

Its sad that we lost over 500 Jawans but we graciously took the Pakistani punch on our chin and PM dubbed it as WAR-LIKE situation. at all those dreams diplomatic possibilities and gains...

 

[Itachi]

I am a bit surprise people blindly supports kargil war.

Do some poster here, have any idea what would have happened had pakistan occupied indian land? There would have been full form war.... The rest of the world would have been watching this with popcorn.

Who would have got the damage? Both india and pakistan. Both country would have slipped back to decades back.

Geez, some people really do want war. If you are defending yourself, then it is ok. But in an pre planned attack? For what?

I can understand the motive of politicians, army but what common civilians interest here, attacking another country and blindly supporting it?

This is the reason why we are still poor 3rd world country. We try to get up by kicking others. Not helping each others. No wonder british could rule for centuries.

 

[carbon11]

The Point 5353 is useless because its surrounded on all sides by India held peaks.According to the Army it was never occupied by the Indian Army but they tried to occupy it during the KArgil war where they captured two other peaks which were at the best disputed it seems,point 4875 and 4251.

point 5353 is the most highest and strategic peak, allows pakistan to cut off 1-d.
it was occupied by indian and part of indian side. and its not surrounded on all sides by indians its right on the loc

While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.
The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as “untenable” given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.

for more disinformation indians have now named tiger hill as 5353 to fool the masses that pakistan doesn't still control a number of points belonging to the indians.

fyi in winter oct-nov when the snows start india would vacate its posts in kargil and come back in june.
your army was caught with its pants down and was in a state of panic.
they were alerted to presence of infiltrators by local shepherds and then sent 2 search parties in total numbering 300 troops who went to their deaths.

If Pakistan Army would have directly started firing it would have given India the excuse of going for a full fledged war where India held a 2:1 conventional superiority.Indian Navy was already preparing to blockade the Karachi port and Nawaz Sharif accepted that Pakistan had only 6 days of supplies left in case a war had happened.

all ifs buts
ganja had agreed to withdraw. full fledged war by indians was only a empty notion it was indians who had crapped their pants and was begging usa to bully pakistan, it was actually usa who was threatening pakistan with imf aid, saudi oil, etc our country was already isolated and sanctioned due to nuclear tests.

India couldnot remove the 1000 irregulars?What are you on?

1.They were not irregulars,they were your army men.

2.India had captured 70%-80% of peaks already

more bollywood rubbish, they were irregulars most were paramilitaries/ mujahideen
india had not captured nothing it threw everything at those peaks, even crossed the loc with its aircraft which were shot down.

He said the “boys” were comforted by their commander's assessment that no serious response would come.

“But it did -- wave after wave, supported by massive air bursting artillery and repeated air attacks. The enemy still couldn't manage to capture the peaks, and instead filled in the valleys

Yes of course your Army refused to take the body of their own slain men.Not even giving them the respect they deserved.

India could have easily opened a number of fronts along the LOC and the other sectors and run the Pakistani army thin.They did this in 1965 also.

maybe indian can finally give the correct account how many of its soldiers died, because false accounts and panic situation started from day 1 among the indians.

And who told you that India had to withdraw by June?Dreamt of it?Did you?

when did i say withdraw by june. india would have had to withdraw from kargil by nov due to winter, with the roads cut of by snow do u think operation vijay and so many troops and 10 squadron of iaf could have carried through winter , the operation would have had to be scaled back and abandoned with the indians having to retake the peaks in may-june 2000, by that time pakistan infilitrators would have strengthened their positions.

Pakistan didnt have the means to fight a long war with India all it hoped for was that there would be a very short limited war and then UN/International pressure would allow a ceasefire and Pakistan would take the positions.Anther miscalculation by your generals(4th one i guess since 1947) on what would be India's response.India responded vehemently and IT WAS YOUR PM WHO WAS IN WASHINGTON NOT THE INDIAN PM.And as you so nicely point out that your generals overrule your PM why didnt they do it in this case?

means? it was 1000 irregulars who were dug in who weren't armed with anything heavier than LMG .
and for 80 days u couldn't even dislodge them. it was u indians who had launched a full fledged campaign and committed so many troops resources in kargil, not pakistan.

it was the pm who ran off to washington on his own accord and failed , betrayed the military slagged of the military and isi , and agreed to withdraw troops.

The Tiger hill complex was already in Indian hands by July 7.So Pakistan couldnt have cut off any supplies anywhere any how.It was taking heavy losses and as most of your generals except Mussharaf has said,it was a BLUNDER.

ganja was in usa in july 4 where he agreed to withdraw, tiger hill only got in indian hands because pakistan withdrew, and all india did was occupy vacated pakistan positions and the bollywood machine went into overdrive

Lets assume the war went nuclear.All of India's Eastern region and Southern region defences are beyond the reach of Pakistani missiles(Ghauri 2 was handed over only in 2003) India would have retaliated with its higher yield ThermoNuclear bombs delivered through AirCrafts.As you know in 1999 No Pakistani aircraft had BVR capability while Indian Airforce had BVR capability.So there was no question of Pakistan going nuclear and India not retaliating.

the nuclear option was not on the card. india did not have the technology to mate the warhead to a delivery system.
as for aircraft india would have had to deliver the bomb on a heavy aircraft, you saw what happened when your aircraft tried to cross the loc they were shot down.
so less just agree with jaswant singh that nuclear option was not on the card

as for pakistan we had hatf-1 missile, hatf-2 abdali, and hatf-3 ghauri all tested and mated with warheads.
pakistan had obtained m-11 nuclear capable missiles from china since 1993, bottom line is is pakistan had a ready made package bought from the shelf already. and could target northern india , who cares about south and east if there is a mushroom cloud over dehli these are all lame arguments from you. but nuclear was never on the cards this was stated by musharraf afterwards and jaswant singh of india.

So finally Musharaff had to run to Sharif and ask him to go to Washington and get a ceasefire and ask India to come to negotiation table.That was the only option left.But India refused to negotiate and said it will take the peaks back whether Pakistan withdraws or not.Your generals got what was coming to them,a PHAINTA.

only phainta was for your troops, who were in state of panic right from the start.

musharraf did not ask sharif to go to washington, sharif went on his own accord read talbots account, if the pm ganja messed up the diplomacy and agreed to withdraw pakistan troops and agreed to pakistan involvement then that isn't the fault of the army, its just that ganja is a useless politician and negotiator.
hence the army rightly carried out a coup against ganjas corrupt goverment.

if pakistan had got a phainta, india would have pressed home the advantage and attacked pakistan. fact is military you were beaten, but you won on the political front.

. Clinton asked Sharif if he knew how advanced the threat of nuclear war really was? Did Sharif know his military was preparing their nuclear tipped missiles? …Sharif asked again to have me leave the room. The President dismissed this with a wave of his hand and then told Sharif that he warned him on the second not to come to Washington unless he was ready to withdraw without any precondition or quid pro quo….The President was getting angry. He told Sharif that he had asked repeatedly for Pakistani help to bring Usama bin Ladin to justice from Afghanistan. Sharif had promised often to do so but had done nothing. Instead the ISI worked with bin Ladin and the Taliban to foment terrorism. …Sharif was getting exhausted. He denied that he had ordered the preparation of their missile force, said he was against that but he was worried for his life now back in Pakistan. …

 

[carbon11]

Carbon11, or should I say Brig. Rashid Qureshi...you need to calm down and take off your Mush's moderately enlightened hogwash tinted glasses off...

You yourself are conceding that Pakistan was isolated for whatever reason around that time period...none more severly then Mush, with directly culpability on two of the major counts, Kargil fiasco and Military coup, besides nuclear tests...

Knowing his tacky attention seeking personality, he couldn't continue staying isolated...

His whole rationale for signing up for War of Terror was his personal gain...and that's what he did..

Kargil in insolation has very little to do with 9/11, but if you put Mush's myopic, selfish, and opportunistic gambits....there is a direct connection....

i'm not a roshani khiyali, neither i'm a mush supporter, and neither a muhajir
i am totally against wot, and invasion of tribal areas drone attacks.

but only a ganja supporter like u can misinterpret talbots passages to such a degree and somehow link it to war on terror where pakistan became fully involved in 2003 when it decided to move into s.waziristan.


it was your ganja who was ratting out about bin laden, badmouthing pakistan isi and military and taliban to clinton with bruce reidel(cia) in the room, and asking clinton to tell reidel to leave the room well before 9/11

and talking of musharraf wasn't it ganja who appointed him coas, by removing general karamat, general karamat was suspicious of ganja from day one it was he who overuled ganja over the nuke test.

You yourself are conceding that Pakistan was isolated for whatever reason around that time period...none more severly then Mush, with directly culpability on two of the major counts, Kargil fiasco and Military coup, besides nuclear tests..

pakistan was isolated due to the nuclear tests we were under all sorts of military and economic sanctions.

taking imf loans was the product off corrupt ppp and ganja goverments of the 90's who looted pakistan.


military coup was needed because ganja goverment was inept.

what happened after 2001, same ganja and bhutto would have done ten times worse than musharraf after 9/11 attack and world outrage. do u really think ganja would have told america to get lost after 9/11 attack?

 

[Blitzkrieg27]

^^^ Can I just say thanks for the laughs on a very tough day.

btw you might also want to read this,

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/218660-pakistan-india-never-got-close-nuclear-rift-says-musharraf.html

Participating in an Indian TV programme on Saturday night, Musharraf said “there was no finger on the nuclear button because the nuclear assets were not mated with the delivery systems”, a view endorsed by Singh.

You get high? If you are in London, hook me up bro

 

[Singham]

I did not bother read any of the posts by pakistanis. I have rather read what that Lieutenant General (Retired) Shahid Aziz, had to say on Kargil war. I guess he s got more knowledge and truth compared to Pak posters.

 

[Jeetu111]

lol . Blitz - your link will make carbon11 run away from this thread

 

[Jeetu111]

I did not bother read any of the posts by pakistanis. I have rather read what that Lieutenant General (Retired) Shahid Aziz, had to say on Kargil war. I guess he s got more knowledge and truth compared to Pak posters.

absolutely

 

[the Great Khan]

I think we've veered off slightly..alot of carbons post is accurate..but we are talking about the events leading upto kargil...also I can say for a fact that Mush had no idea about the coup..and I know because I have spoken to those who wete directly and indirectly involved on the day..

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

^ Agree... I dont think that you must mate the nuke with say a missile to use it is correct.. You probably can still use it as a standalone bomb.... Nuclear option was definitely open and discussed by Pakistan as bargaining tool.
What Genearl and Nawaz later said was either a political stunt or face saving exercise or aman ki aashaa thing

 

[waqar goraya]

Neither this man Gen Shahid Aziz who owns a farm house worth millions near Murree and has done political victimisation as NAB chairman has any credibility nor hypocrite and corrupt Ganja has any credibility who laid the foundations of this corruption as chief Minister Punjab back in 80s is a truthful persons....And i am not sure about mush's view...but Mush's version also has some insightful points..

 

[the Great Khan]

^ Agree... I dont think that you must mate the nuke with say a missile to use it is correct.. You probably can still use it as a standalone bomb.... Nuclear option was definitely open and discussed by Pakistan as bargaining tool.
What Genearl and Nawaz later said was either a political stunt or face saving exercise or aman ki aashaa thing

I cant verify the nuke thing but there are conflicting reports with regards to this. Personally from what Ive read and analysed it wasnt on the table. However there is no doubt that strategic forces were on alert due to the possibility of the Indians crossing the international border in sindh and punjab.

coming back to the main crux of the details, the ISI did not have a major role in Kargil. They knew what was going on and of course were involved in briefings etc but their role was limited. The PA were front and centre with the NLI and MI.

Like I said earlier militarily the plan was eniterly workable but it required political backing and gumption, because if you agree to go all the way then you must agree to do so. Not back out when the going gets tough.

Benazir in 1996 was invovled in a war game that predicted a kargil type scenario(there were some differences etc) but she insisted that politically she would not be able to back the PA. That was one of the conclusions of the war game. NS knew this. He was fully briefed but agreed to sign off on the new op. If he had the cahoonas he could have shut it all down and warned Mush that he would face a court martial if he went through with it. He didnt. He let the PA go ahead and then stabbed them in the back with his humiliating theatrics in america! Suffice it to say we have never really recovered politically from that farce!

 

[Garuda]

I cant verify the nuke thing but there are conflicting reports with regards to this. Personally from what Ive read and analysed it wasnt on the table. However there is no doubt that strategic forces were on alert due to the possibility of the Indians crossing the international border in sindh and punjab.

coming back to the main crux of the details, the ISI did not have a major role in Kargil. They knew what was going on and of course were involved in briefings etc but their role was limited. The PA were front and centre with the NLI and MI.

Like I said earlier militarily the plan was eniterly workable but it required political backing and gumption, because if you agree to go all the way then you must agree to do so. Not back out when the going gets tough.

Benazir in 1996 was invovled in a war game that predicted a kargil type scenario(there were some differences etc) but she insisted that politically she would not be able to back the PA. That was one of the conclusions of the war game. NS knew this. He was fully briefed but agreed to sign off on the new op. If he had the cahoonas he could have shut it all down and warned Mush that he would face a court martial if he went through with it. He didnt. He let the PA go ahead and then stabbed them in the back with his humiliating theatrics in america! Suffice it to say we have never really recovered politically from that farce!

I am not very sure there because

What is the objective of that ? To get whole Kashmir away from India I guess ?

If their objective was to gain few sq miles of peak then may be, but then they should have been ready for long time conflict in that region. Which is not good for PA and Pakistan state. Without International support India will take it back as they can afford long time conflict. With election coming the Govt would have gone for it with all it's force to show it's nationalism.



Pakistan will never use nuclear arms for Kashmir. They may think of it if the danger is to mainland Pakistan. But I can't believe they will use it for getting Kashmir.

If they were ready for all out war (including nuclear), then also their objective won't achieve as it will just destroy all. It's like I will die and try to kill other. So donno what gain they will get ?

Pakistan Can't get whole Kashmir in anyway militarily. So any millitary tactic in that region is not going to give any strategic advantage. Especially from Pakistan side.

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

secretary of State Strobe Talbot writes in his new book Engaging India – Diplomacy, Democracy and the Bomb. ‘Clinton came as close as I had ever seen to blowing up in a meeting with a foreign leader,’ and told Sharif, ‘If I were the Indian Prime Minister, I would never do that. I would be crazy to do it. It would be nuclear blackmail. If you proceed with this line, I will have no leverage with them. If I tell you what you think you want me to say, I will be stripped of all influence with the Indians.’ ‘I am not – and the Indians are not – going to let you get away with blackmail, and I will not permit any characterization of this meeting that suggests I am giving in to blackmail,’ Talbot writes,

Above is from Carbons post... I would believe American on this compared to a Indian or Pakistani leader/general. I do not know how serious Pakistanis would have been when they put nuclear option on table but making such a threat without actual intention of executing it, would have been dumbest thing to do.....
I wouldn't say its irreparable diplomatic damage but It will take several years for Pakistan before it can be really justify itself to be trusted on nuclear Club.

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

@Garuda... We have negated outside interferrence in Kashmir by making Pakistan sign Shimala agreement.... Pakistan can not take Kashmir to UN or involve any other country in resolving the issue or ask us to speed up resolution as long as Shimala agreement is present..
Its like doing something which may be ethically in-correct but leagly unquestionable. Pakistan signed Shimal agreement in distress.... It would like it to be re-written....

 

[carbon11]

^^^ Can I just say thanks for the laughs on a very tough day.

btw you might also want to read this,

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/218660-pakistan-india-never-got-close-nuclear-rift-says-musharraf.html



You get high? If you are in London, hook me up bro

like i said nuclear war, and escalation of the conflict away from kargil theatre are all empty notions.
the nuclear claim on pakistan was from the cia i.e the nuclear tipped missile m11, hatf 1 and 2 and 3 came from usa. and ganja was grilled on this issue in usa.

since pakistan had bought the ready made technology of the shelf from china

mush is not gonna admit to this since pakistan nukes have bad press already, and the aq khan issue has not helped us.

double standards on nuclear issue is when india tested, usa was stopping and blackmailing ganja from testing.

as for india jaswant singh concurred with musharraf on nuclear abilty.

the issue of delivery systems, pakistans missile ability was ahead of india and still is today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2197782/Indias-nuclear-arsenal-failed-dud-missiles.html

 

[Garuda]

@Garuda... We have negated outside interferrence in Kashmir by making Pakistan sign Shimala agreement.... Pakistan can not take Kashmir to UN or involve any other country in resolving the issue or ask us to speed up resolution as long as Shimala agreement is present..
Its like doing something which may be ethically in-correct but leagly unquestionable. Pakistan signed Shimal agreement in distress.... It would like it to be re-written....

well, in this kind of scenarios, one side always wants something to change. And Pakistan would like that too.

But question is will India allow any change ? I guess not.

So diplomatically, economically and millitarily India is in an advantage position on Kashmir.

Hence my point was how superior the military move happens from Pakistan, the problem is they can't sustain their hold even if they gain some territory to start with.

Till the time, Pakistan has unilaterial international support on Kashmir and economic advantage, doing anykind of millitary move is just plain stupidity.

 

[Anfield]

I think some Indian General also claimed that they lost the Kargil War

 

[Anfield]

ndia actually lost Kargil war: Indian Gen Pal

Here you go

* Indian general says what his country gained from war has not been consolidated

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: An Indian general, who commanded troops during 1999 Kargil war, on Sunday broke his 11-year silence to say that India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

Lieutenant-General (r) Kishan Pal, the then head of Srinagar-based 15 Corps, told a private channel that he did not speak because he was never convinced about this war.

“We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories, but lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily,” he said, when was asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later.

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh. An armed forces tribunal has indicted Pal for showing bias against Brigadier Singh; former 70 infantry brigade commander, and belittled his achievements in the war besides falsifying accounts of battles during the Kargil operations.

Meanwhile, a Chandigarh-based former army major has also come out with a revelation that his inputs on Kargil ‘intrusion’, sent to his seniors as early as January-February 1999, were ignored and he was asked to stop sending such reports in writing.

Major Manish Bhatnagar, who participated in the Kargil war, said not only were his inputs ignored, later, when a full-scale conflict broke out, he was court martialled on another pretext and made to leave the army.

He said he had informed his senior officers about the heavy presence of hostile forces and had also apprised them of the large number of bunkers and occupation of vital points by them during his posting. “Later, when the strength of ‘intruders’ was found to be more than the perceptions of the top generals — resulting in mass causalities of soldiers — officers like me were persecuted to hide their wrongs,’” Bhatnagar said.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\05\31\story_31-5-2010_pg7_6

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

@Garud... I dont think Pakistan Army have been a failure. Militancy started when India started claiming for POK during discussions. So PA armed and funded JKLF. Soon they realise that JKLF is becoming a monster which they might themselves not be able to deal with.
So that is it....
Well we will keep seeing such desperate attempts till issue is resolved.

On humourous note I think Pakistani are dealing with Indian babus.... If only they would have asked Indian population how the Babus work and treat them, they would have never signed the Shimala agreement..The babu will never bother to look on the file cos he doesnt like to start the work without some tea Mawa and Gutakhaa....

 

[Smiling Creed]

^^

What you have written is true especially the part where early signs on intrusion were ignored. Inputs from field officers and even from cattle grazers were ignored, as India was high on Lahore bus trip and Mr. Vajpayee was eyeing for Nobel Prize.

The bombshell came from China, when Mush went to trip and from Beijing he didn't used a secure line, as he was confident that Chinese won't tap to his line. Chinese promptly shared evidence with US, and then in turn it was shared with India.

 

[Garuda]

@Garud... I dont think Pakistan Army have been a failure. Militancy started when India started claiming for POK during discussions. So PA armed and funded JKLF. Soon they realise that JKLF is becoming a monster which they might themselves not be able to deal with.
So that is it....
Well we will keep seeing such desperate attempts till issue is resolved.

On humourous note I think Pakistani are dealing with Indian babus.... If only they would have asked Indian population how the Babus work and treat them, they would have never signed the Shimala agreement..The babu will never bother to look on the file cos he doesnt like to start the work without some tea Mawa and Gutakhaa....

I have never said Pakistan Army has been a failure.

Actually, they have been a success for them (from Army point of view). They have the biggest pie in their country, they have the say in everything in Pakista. A COAS has more power than anyone in Pakistan.

They have busiess which is spread across all sectors.

So they have a successful organisation


With money and arms backing from US, they had no issues in supporting millitants in Kashmir which they did. But can they continue that when USA backed off ?

Again what did they achieve ? Forget about what loss they did to India. A Pakistani or Kashmiri will look at what they achieved that what India lost.

To me, they lost more than gaining by this millitary struggle.

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

Sorry, I meant PA's policy towards Kashmir. Not PA as a whole. Its because of their relentless pressure to internationalize Kashmir that now Indians think that they will never get back POK and accept that best bet is LOC.
Also its support to JKLF was stopped long back once they realised their mistake that they are creating a Monster which was asking to become a party in negotiation talks.It had nothing to do with 9/11. So instead they started supporting militancy in pockets. Small groups.. They dont need US to fund such activities/organisations. Its dirt cheap...
Last part of your para has too many difficult question....Dont ask it....

 

[Senman]

North’s missiles tied to Musharraf blunder
KYODO

ISLAMABAD – A retired Pakistani nuclear scientist has claimed that former Pakistani leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf’s 1999 military adventurism in the Kargil region of divided Kashmir failed in part because the North Korea-aided, nuclear-capable Ghauri missiles he wanted to deploy then had a faulty guidance system.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the scientist said that during the Kargil crisis of May-July 1999, Musharraf, who was then army chief, “wanted to deploy Ghauri missiles, but air went out of his balloon when the top general in charge of the missile program told him the missile had a faulty guidance system.”

Over a year earlier, on April 6, 1998, Pakistan had carried out what it described as a successful first test of the intermediate-range ballistic missile, developed by Khan Research Laboratory with North Korean assistance.

Even Musharraf, who witnessed that Ghauri launch as a local corps commander, had been led to believe it was a success then, according to the nuclear scientist, who until recently had long been closely associated with the country’s nuclear and missile programs.

The truth, he said, is that the ballistic missile failed to reach its predesignated impact point in Pakistan’s southwestern province of Baluchistan and its debris could not be found — something that would have undermined the missile’s deterrent effect if it were made public.

Military experts and strategists have pondered why Musharraf, immediately after he became chief of the army staff in October 1998, began planning the ill-fated incursions across the volatile Line of Control in disputed Kashmir, sparking the worst outbreak of fighting since the India-Pakistan war of 1971 even though he knew Pakistan could not prevail in an all-out conventional war with its neighbor.

During the May-July 1999 conflict, the two sides fought a two-month limited war in Kargil that led to over 1,200 fatalities and added to fears of a nuclear showdown before then-U.S. President Bill Clinton helped broker a ceasefire and Pakistani withdrawal.

Musharraf’s gamble in Kargil has since been interpreted by many as an effort by Pakistan, aside from gaining a tactical advantage by occupying dominating positions in the Kargil Heights, to test the deterrence value of its nuclear weapons.

The untold story, according to the scientist, is that Musharraf was unaware of the Ghauri missile’s faulty guidance system even as he oversaw the covert occupation by Pakistan troops and mujahedeen “freedom fighters” of the inhospitable, snowbound outposts in Kargil that the Indian Army had vacated for the winter.

He said Musharraf only learned the truth in March 1999 from Lt. Gen. Zulfikar Khan, who then commanded the army’s Combat Division.

Musharraf then ordered another Ghauri test, which took place on April 14, 1999, just three days after India tested its Agni-2 intermediate-range ballistic missile and several weeks before India detected the extent of the Pakistani side’s penetration in Kargil.

But this test also failed, with the missile overflying its target and falling across the border in the Sistan region of southeastern Iran, the scientist said. It, too, was publicly declared a success, however.

The scientist’s remarks were corroborated by two other nuclear scientists and another knowledgeable source who confirmed that the two missiles tested in 1998 and 1999 both failed to impact at the predesignated points in Baluchistan.

While Pakistan claimed the Ghauri missiles were designed and produced indigenously, they were actually Nodong missiles supplied by North Korea and re-engineered in Pakistan to extend their strike range.

The scientist claimed that after the second test, North Koreans were invited to a meeting at army headquarters in Rawalpindi, where they were confronted with the fault in their technology.

“The North Koreans started talking left and right but were told to open their eyes and take care of the guidance system in their Nodong missiles,” said the scientist, who was privy to the meeting.

Musharraf, he said, initially wanted to return the Nodong missiles to North Korea, from which it had imported 40 in knocked down condition in the mid-1990s. But then the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission undertook to replace the guidance with that of the country’s Chinese-aided Shaheen missile, he said.

Last Nov. 28, the improved version of Ghauri was test-fired and the government — true to form — declared it a success. Soon afterward, however, it was found to have exploded in midair and rained metal debris over parts of Sindh Province.

Pakistan’s disgraced nuclear scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan, whose laboratory develops nuclear warheads for Pakistan’s missiles, concedes there was a row about the Ghauri’s accuracy.

But he ridicules the assertion that Musharraf wanted to return them over their faulty guidance system, saying, “What difference does it make if a nuclear-tipped missile falls 1 km left or right of the predetermined impact point?”

Khan claims Musharraf merely sought to return them because Pakistan had insufficient funds to pay back what it owed for them.

The Kargil crisis happened in the wake of six nuclear tests carried out by Pakistan in May 1998, which triggered sanctions against the country and led a drastic fall in foreign exchange reserves.

Pakistan suffered a serious military and diplomatic setback after successful Indian military action and intense international pressure forced it to unconditionally pull back behind the Line of Control as part of the U.S.-brokered ceasefire.

In his autobiography, published in 2006, Musharraf called it a “myth” that the two sides had come to the brink of nuclear war during the conflict and dismissed as “preposterous” speculation that Pakistan was preparing for a possible nuclear strike on India then.

“I can also say with authority that in 1999 our nuclear capability was not yet operational. Merely exploding a bomb does not mean that you are operationally capable of deploying nuclear force in the field and delivering a bomb across the border over a selected target,” he wrote.

Critics of Musharraf’s action often refer to the Kargil conflict as a “misadventure,” saying it was badly conceived and executed, while he wrongly assumed the world would sit back idly.

Instead of considering the Kargil as a blunder, Musharraf, who has been living in exile since quitting politics in 2008, claims it actually brought the Kashmir issue back into international focus and helped pave the way for a solution.

However, tension between the nuclear-armed neighbors, which have fought three wars since partition in 1947, two of them over Kashmir, has remained high since the Kargil conflict.

Source: japantimes.co.jp

 

[HaMmy FinE LeG StriKeR]

what conflicting stories ? Indian govt said PA were the kargil perps & Mushy & your govt denied it- today they are exposed again .

you occupied the siachen and why dont you speak on it??

 

[HaMmy FinE LeG StriKeR]

Indians should appreciate Pervez Musharraf, before 1999 world opinion was divided when it comes to India-Pakistan but Mr. Musharraf singlehandedly turned the world's support towards us.

well you did siachen, we did kargil, our leaders got bowed down to international pressure

 

[Senman]

well you did siachen, we did kargil, our leaders got bowed down to international pressure

Kargil was a major diplomatic victory for India, it worth more than any wars we fought before. We have to thank your Musharraf for that, any other general would have had common-sense.

 

[PetroDollars]

)
People actually taking General (Retarded) Shahid Aziz seriously, this guys an idiot and chumcha of Ganja who has come out after 13 years only to help Ganjas election campaign.

Its a fact India got battered hard by Pak army in kargil even the guy that led you in war says so, but ofcouse indians will always remain in denial.