Kashmiri Pandits demand creation of separate township within Kashmir for them

[Hitman]

Some members of the Kashmiri Pandit community gathered at the Raj Ghat here Saturday to mark the 29th anniversary of their forced exile from Kashmir and demanded creation of a separate township in the valley for them.

They took an oath to return to Kashmir Valley and appealed to the government to fulfil its duty by facilitating their return.

They commemorated Kashmiri Pandit Exodus Day, the organisers said in a statement.

On this day in 1990 hundreds of thousands of protesters, along with armed militants, occupied streets of Kashmir shouting slogans against the minority community which eventually led to their exodus from the valley.

“Many Kashmiri Pandits were killed, raped and tortured before and after January 19, 1990 in a series of targeted killings of minority Pandits,” it said.

Remembering the night, Mona Razdan, one of the displaced Kashmiri Pandits, said that the night was “possibly the longest night of our lives”.

“Mobs from all over the valley had occupied every single road in Kashmir. They shouted slogans against Pandits asking us to either join them or leave the valley,” she said.

Regretting the current state of the exiled Kashmiri Pandit community, Vivek Raina, a young student, said, “More than 50,000 of our people perished in the inhabitable camps. They fell to snake and scorpion bites. There still is a refugee camp in Jammu that harbours more than 25,000 people and is no better than a concentration camp.”

Abhishek Thathoo, a young school student, said, “It is so painful that we are almost like this country’s stepsons despite the fact that we were the only people who upheld the values of Indian civilisation in Kashmir. We lost everything and got no justice. Don’t I have the right to live in my home.”

Link: https://indianexpress.com/article/i...ate-township-within-kashmir-for-them-5546395/

 

[PakLFC]

These people also deserve the right to return home. There demand could be plausible, a Hindu and Muslim Kashmir may not be a bad idea.

 

[Pakistanian]

They don't deserve an inch, if they want they should move back but most of the ones I've met have completely assimilated into Indian culture and have intermarried thus forsaking any claim to being Kashmiri.

They're no more Kashmiri than the millions of Koshur-descendants in Pakistani Punjab who were also driven out through persecution.

 

[troodon]

They don't deserve an inch, if they want they should move back but most of the ones I've met have completely assimilated into Indian culture and have intermarried thus forsaking any claim to being Kashmiri.

They're no more Kashmiri than the millions of Koshur-descendants in Pakistani Punjab who were also driven out through persecution.

Marrying Indian does not make them Kashmiri? : facepalm:

May be those marriages would not have happened if Kashmiri Muslims did not give death threats to their Hindu brothers.

Is it ok for Kashmiri Muslims in Pakistan marry a Punjabi and still remain a Kashmiri?

 

[Pakistanian]

Marrying Indian does not make them Kashmiri? : facepalm:

May be those marriages would not have happened if Kashmiri Muslims did not give death threats to their Hindu brothers.

Is it ok for Kashmiri Muslims in Pakistan marry a Punjabi and still remain a Kashmiri?

Hindu Kashmiris have been intermarrying and assimilating with Indians generations before the 90s lmao, most of them were already leaving the valley long before the rebellion.

 

[troodon]

Hindu Kashmiris have been intermarrying and assimilating with Indians generations before the 90s lmao, most of them were already leaving the valley long before the rebellion.

So?

 

[Pakistanian]

So?

All I'm saying is that most of them have put down roots in India and have nothing do with Kashmir anymore. These demands aren't even realistic, it's just a way to harm the kashmiri people. I bet none of them would even move back permanently even if they were donated a free house lmao.

 

[troodon]

All I'm saying is that most of them have put down roots in India and have nothing do with Kashmir anymore. These demands aren't even realistic, it's just a way to harm the kashmiri people. I bet none of them would even move back permanently even if they were donated a free house lmao.

Who are you to decide?

Anyways, it’s just your opinion.

 

[cricketjoshila]

All I'm saying is that most of them have put down roots in India and have nothing do with Kashmir anymore. These demands aren't even realistic, it's just a way to harm the kashmiri people. I bet none of them would even move back permanently even if they were donated a free house lmao.

They can marry anyone that doesnot mean their lands and houses and their right to live in Kashmir is forfeited.

Who are you to decide if they have anything to do with Kashmir or not.

Its very plausible that they do not trust the muslim Kashmiris anymore and want separate townships.

What do you mean by harm the Kashmiri people? Pandits are Kashmiris from the valley.

What you bet doesnot make any difference...Correct me if i am wrong but you claimed that Kashmiri hindus were not Kashmiri but migrants who settled there during pilgrimages.

 

[PakLFC]

If they are Kashmiri then should be allowed to return home. It's basic commonsense and humanity.

 

[PakLFC]

Kashmir and it's people are given to much emphasis that makes them feel they are the centre of the world. I always tell Kashmiris that remain with India if that is what you people want providing you all leave Pakistan forever. If you don't want to be part of Pakistan then leave our cities like Islamabad permanently as well. They cannot live in both India and Pak taking advantage of everything on offer yet demand a separate country as well, that's just plain stupid. It is not that beautiful a place that millions should unconditionally die over it. Stop feeding the over inflated ego of Kashmiris as if the world will collapse without them. I have observed how they get all defensive when told these plain facts.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Kashmir and it's people are given to much emphasis that makes them feel they are the centre of the world. I always tell Kashmiris that remain with India if that is what you people want providing you all leave Pakistan forever. If you don't want to be part of Pakistan then leave our cities like Islamabad permanently as well. They cannot live in both India and Pak taking advantage of everything on offer yet demand a separate country as well, that's just plain stupid. It is not that beautiful a place that millions should unconditionally die over it. Stop feeding the over inflated ego of Kashmiris as if the world will collapse without them. I have observed how they get all defensive when told these plain facts.

Some Kashmiris want independence, especially an independent valley. Majority of us favour union with Pakistan. It’s the younger generation and those from Srinagar who are more pro independence that make the headlines...

 

[PakLFC]

Some Kashmiris want independence, especially an independent valley. Majority of us favour union with Pakistan. It’s the younger generation and those from Srinagar who are more pro independence that make the headlines...

That Omar Abdullah seems rather happy to be with India as do many Kashmiris I know. I have no problem with that, just leave Pakistan permanently. Kashmiris in Islamabad, Karachi etc are welcome to join their Indian Muslim brethren and be treated like them as well. The younger generation are the future, they are welcome too fight the Indian occupational forces. Pak soldiers should no longer die for the ungrateful and full of themselves Kashmiris. Then Kashmiris ask "why are so many Pakistanis turning against us as well". Answer is many of us real Pakistanis are fed up of Kashmir.

 

[PakLFC]

Kashmir as a whole has only bought death, tears and destruction to the entire subcontinent. More then beautiful it's a cursed valley of death where the people don't really know what they want. Kashmir is the real reason why the subcontinent remains so backward and under developed. Had it not been for this God forbidden place the entire sub continent would be much more prosperous. The problem is that Kashmiris want to live in both Pak and India but for the entire valley to exclusively belong to them. No matter how much they deny it this is what most Kashmiris really want, you can feel it when you talk to them. This is why I see aggression towards Kashmiri people has greatly increased even amongst Pakistani communities with some telling them to get out of Pakistan as they are "not really Pakistanis". I would happily let the place go in return for all Kashmiris leaving Pakistan, permanently. I noticed many Pakistanis agreed with me when I was last in Lahore and Islamabad last year. Unlike the Punjabis, Pathans, Baloch, Saraiki and Sindhis I have always felt in my heart of hearts that neither are Kashmiri Pakistanis and neither do they want to be. What is happening is they are using Pak fauj to fight their battle for freedom against India. We Pakistanis need to understand whats happening here.

 

[PakLFC]

Here is something I have always noticed about Kashmiris even in Europe or Pak. If you ask a Pathan, Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch or anyone else about their identity or country of ethnicity they will say "Pakistani" where as Kashmiris will say "Kashmir". Most Kashmiris in Pak or elsewhere like the UK of Pak origin do not consider themselves Pakistanis, that's fine by me. Let them form there own country so that soldiers of both Pak and India no longer have to kill each other and parent's on either side of the LOC stop losing their young sons. Kashmiris can never be loyal to Pakistan. Most independent polls both side of the LOC prove that they want complete independence. I am sure they understandif that were to be granted they can no longer use any Pakistani facilities after being thrown out. I have had some very intense rows with Kashmiri people over the months accusing them openly of disloyalty and over importance. Then they get all emotional to the brink of crying!

 

[Rafa]

Kashmir as a whole has only bought death, tears and destruction to the entire subcontinent. More then beautiful it's a cursed valley of death where the people don't really know what they want. Kashmir is the real reason why the subcontinent remains so backward and under developed. Had it not been for this God forbidden place the entire sub continent would be much more prosperous. The problem is that Kashmiris want to live in both Pak and India but for the entire valley to exclusively belong to them. No matter how much they deny it this is what most Kashmiris really want, you can feel it when you talk to them. This is why I see aggression towards Kashmiri people has greatly increased even amongst Pakistani communities with some telling them to get out of Pakistan as they are "not really Pakistanis". I would happily let the place go in return for all Kashmiris leaving Pakistan, permanently. I noticed many Pakistanis agreed with me when I was last in Lahore and Islamabad last year. Unlike the Punjabis, Pathans, Baloch, Saraiki and Sindhis I have always felt in my heart of hearts that neither are Kashmiri Pakistanis and neither do they want to be. What is happening is they are using Pak fauj to fight their battle for freedom against India. We Pakistanis need to understand whats happening here.

Agree, all your posts have hit the nail on it's head with regards to the Kashmir issue.

Their support for Pakistan Army is only to use them to free themselves from the Indian occupation. Had Afghanistan Army volunteered to free Kashmir from the Indian occupation , they will start cheerleading for the Afghans or if ISIS volunteered to free Kashmir from Indian occupation, they will start cheerleading for the ISIS. It has reached a saturation point where Pakistan doesn't have enough resources to feed it's own population but are expected to waste their depleting resources on Kashmir. What is so special about Kashmir and its people? Dont we have enough of our problems in Baluchistan where our people are not getting basic rights due to corrupt governments and Sardars ? The Pakistan Army's role should only be to secure the borders of Pakistan and deal with a threat inside it's borders , not even a single soldier is worth losing for the mess in Kashmir.


Besides, the people in Kashmir have massively inflated egos now and think very highly of themselves and expect India -Pakistan to go on a nuclear war for their happiness and then World War 3 would commence.

 

[Madplayer]

Link: https://indianexpress.com/article/i...ate-township-within-kashmir-for-them-5546395/

I, as a Kashmiri, on behalf of all Kashmiris reject the claims made in this article that Hundereds of thousands of Kashmiri muslims protested to get the minority out of Kashmir. We reject it and term it as pure propaganda of Indian state machinery to brainwash the gullible Indians, demonising Kashmiri muslims and maligning the Kashmiri struggle which was never communal in nature given the fact that the idea of independent Kashmir was first conceived by kashmiri pandit leaders themselves. Its a shame that educated Indians arent able to look through this facade and come to terms with the Machavellian policies of their various regimes. We maintain that the unfortunate incident of mass Pandit migration that took place happened due to numerous factors none of which was a concerted effort by muslim majority.

We also reject the idea of creating seperate township for pandits as that would give legitimacy to the claims of Indian propaganda machinery that pandits arent safe with muslims. Pandits have an equal right to live in Kashmir, among the people of Kashmir just like they always have. To provide seperate township would also mean paving way for socio-economic discrimination within the state. And looking at the long term picture, we dont want to give birth to an Israel-Palestine kind of scenario. Finally, Indians have no right to meddle in our internal issues because they are outsiders. They should fix their own issues and we know their motives behind this divide and rule policy.

 

[Madplayer]

Agree, all your posts have hit the nail on it's head with regards to the Kashmir issue.

Their support for Pakistan Army is only to use them to free themselves from the Indian occupation. Had Afghanistan Army volunteered to free Kashmir from the Indian occupation , they will start cheerleading for the Afghans or if ISIS volunteered to free Kashmir from Indian occupation, they will start cheerleading for the ISIS. It has reached a saturation point where Pakistan doesn't have enough resources to feed it's own population but are expected to waste their depleting resources on Kashmir. What is so special about Kashmir and its people? Dont we have enough of our problems in Baluchistan where our people are not getting basic rights due to corrupt governments and Sardars ? The Pakistan Army's role should only be to secure the borders of Pakistan and deal with a threat inside it's borders , not even a single soldier is worth losing for the mess in Kashmir.


Besides, the people in Kashmir have massively inflated egos now and think very highly of themselves and expect India -Pakistan to go on a nuclear war for their happiness and then World War 3 would commence.

Well i am not sure about inflated egos, but the question is that who is responsible for this condition of Kashmiris? Can you answer it? Who started it? Responsibility to end this human atrocity falls on the ones who are responsible for all of these countless deaths. Ofcourse, you can always shrug your shoulders and tell these oppressed people that you are fed up now because you couldnt finish what you started and that they are on their own now. But that would say more about the character of your nation than anything else.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Here is something I have always noticed about Kashmiris even in Europe or Pak. If you ask a Pathan, Punjabi, Sindhi, Baloch or anyone else about their identity or country of ethnicity they will say "Pakistani" where as Kashmiris will say "Kashmir". Most Kashmiris in Pak or elsewhere like the UK of Pak origin do not consider themselves Pakistanis, that's fine by me. Let them form there own country so that soldiers of both Pak and India no longer have to kill each other and parent's on either side of the LOC stop losing their young sons. Kashmiris can never be loyal to Pakistan. Most independent polls both side of the LOC prove that they want complete independence. I am sure they understandif that were to be granted they can no longer use any Pakistani facilities after being thrown out. I have had some very intense rows with Kashmiri people over the months accusing them openly of disloyalty and over importance. Then they get all emotional to the brink of crying!

That is overly harsh, especially on Azad Kashmiris.

There are some Pashtun people, Balochi people, Sindhis that want independence and that value their ethnicity over the Pakistani national identity.

So it isnt limited to Azad Kashmiris, which probably also has some people who want independence.

But to say majority of Azad Kashmiris want independence I dont think is accurate, which is why you dont see the type of independence movement as in IOK.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I, as a Kashmiri, on behalf of all Kashmiris reject the claims made in this article that Hundereds of thousands of Kashmiri muslims protested to get the minority out of Kashmir. We reject it and term it as pure propaganda of Indian state machinery to brainwash the gullible Indians, demonising Kashmiri muslims and maligning the Kashmiri struggle which was never communal in nature given the fact that the idea of independent Kashmir was first conceived by kashmiri pandit leaders themselves. Its a shame that educated Indians arent able to look through this facade and come to terms with the Machavellian policies of their various regimes. We maintain that the unfortunate incident of mass Pandit migration that took place happened due to numerous factors none of which was a concerted effort by muslim majority.

We also reject the idea of creating seperate township for pandits as that would give legitimacy to the claims of Indian propaganda machinery that pandits arent safe with muslims. Pandits have an equal right to live in Kashmir, among the people of Kashmir just like they always have. To provide seperate township would also mean paving way for socio-economic discrimination within the state. And looking at the long term picture, we dont want to give birth to an Israel-Palestine kind of scenario. Finally, Indians have no right to meddle in our internal issues because they are outsiders. They should fix their own issues and we know their motives behind this divide and rule policy.

Kashmiri pandits were killed and forced to leave the valley by the terrorists bevause the pandits were non muslims. Thats a known fact denying it wont change it.

Kashmiri hindus dont trust the muslim population nor the religious terrorist movement in kashmir. So its onlyogical that the persecuted lot get separate townships with security and other families. Who knows which terrorist next attacks them just because the pandits are non muslims.

The medieval religious persecuting mentality of the Kashmiri terrorists was revealed in 1990.


Finally, the Indian tricolor flies in Srinagar.Hence Indians will have their say on Kashmir. There is nothing you or anybody can do to stop it.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Well i am not sure about inflated egos, but the question is that who is responsible for this condition of Kashmiris? Can you answer it? Who started it? Responsibility to end this human atrocity falls on the ones who are responsible for all of these countless deaths. Ofcourse, you can always shrug your shoulders and tell these oppressed people that you are fed up now because you couldnt finish what you started and that they are on their own now. But that would say more about the character of your nation than anything else.

So who started this mess?

 

[Varun]

Is there a precedent for several POTWs being made within the same thread? Because [MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] - current Time Pass POTW holder might I add - deserves no less.

I too am bored of the eternal sookfest that is Kashmir. Screw them - Regards, India & Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

These people also deserve the right to return home. There demand could be plausible, a Hindu and Muslim Kashmir may not be a bad idea.

It might not be a bad idea to divide all Indian cities along religious lines for that matter. We have all read news articles that Mumbai is already unofficially partitioned so Hindus can live in vegetarian comfort, so I too will back Varun's praise for your contributions in this thread POTW role model!

 

[Madplayer]

Kashmiri pandits were killed and forced to leave the valley by the terrorists bevause the pandits were non muslims. Thats a known fact denying it wont change it.

Nope. You're wrong about it as always.

Kashmiri hindus dont trust the muslim population nor the religious terrorist movement in kashmir. So its onlyogical that the persecuted lot get separate townships with security and other families. Who knows which terrorist next attacks them just because the pandits are non muslims.

Many Kashmiri Pandits who never left are living in Kashmir already.

The medieval religious persecuting mentality of the Kashmiri terrorists was revealed in 1990.

Only brainwashed Indians or ones with an agenda believe it.

Finally, the Indian tricolor flies in Srinagar.Hence Indians will have their say on Kashmir. There is nothing you or anybody can do to stop it.

Tricolor is forced on Kashmir as of now, it being an Internationally accepted dispute. I can force my flag on you as well. Doesnt mean jack if you dont recognise it.

 

[Madplayer]

So who started this mess?

Indians first and then Pakistanis also. If we had been left alone, none of this would have happened.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Kashmiri’s have been a failed community in every sense, Hindu and Muslim Kashmiri’s both. All these years of playing victim card in India and Pakistan. All that entitlement yet they haven’t had any great leaders neither their freedom movements have had any substance to capture world attention on a serious note.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Of all the people I have met in India, I must say the Kashmiri pandits have to be the most obnoxious and stupid lot.

They think they can get away with literally any insensitive and dumb comment they make just because blah blah what happened two decades ago blah blah.

I take a lot of pride in shutting them up in debates.

Comparatively I would say the Kashmiri Muslims are a lot more dignified.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Another failed promise by the central government in India - pre 2014 election they promised to resettle at least some Pandits back to the valley yet it didn’t happen. Ironically in recent years it has been easier for outsiders like rohingyas to settle in Kashmir compared to the Pandits.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

5 years on how many of the 38,119 families has the government resettled?

"Special efforts will be made to ensure that Kashmiri pandits return to the land of their ancestors with with full dignity, security and assured livelihood," the President said while outlining the agenda of Modi government for the next five years.

The BJP had mentioned return and rehabilitation of Kashmiri migrants to the Valley in its manifesto.

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Meanwhile.....

Rohingya refugees find safe haven in Kashmir
Hundreds of persecuted Rohingya families have found refuge in Kashmir after fleeing Buddhist attacks in Myanmar.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/i...efugees-find-safe-h-20141223163741968194.html

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

That Omar Abdullah seems rather happy to be with India as do many Kashmiris I know. I have no problem with that, just leave Pakistan permanently. Kashmiris in Islamabad, Karachi etc are welcome to join their Indian Muslim brethren and be treated like them as well. The younger generation are the future, they are welcome too fight the Indian occupational forces. Pak soldiers should no longer die for the ungrateful and full of themselves Kashmiris. Then Kashmiris ask "why are so many Pakistanis turning against us as well". Answer is many of us real Pakistanis are fed up of Kashmir.

It’s a little irresponsible to state that a collaborator who was one of 87 MLAs in J and K Parliament, without these people there is no India in Kashmir.

I’m a proud Pakistani who happens to be from Kashmir, but I find your lack of understanding in parts slightly bizarre, despite your decent understanding in other areas.

There is propaganda promoted by Indian media which has succeeded in diverting some of the pro Pakistani people from Kashmir into pro independence.

The U.K. and Europe based ones are mainly pro Pakistan as are people back in Kashmir (valley and AJK).

Srinagar is the hub of pro independence and they get the headlines. Fact is 8/10 districts in valley (minus Srinagar and Budgam)
and AJK are pro Pakistan.

I’m also fed up of a few nationalist Kashmiris but let’s not tarnish all of us with the same brush.

Ps since 90s, lack of Kashmir policy caused diversion of some pro Pak into nationalists..but pro Pak still majority

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Kashmiri’s have been a failed community in every sense, Hindu and Muslim Kashmiri’s both. All these years of playing victim card in India and Pakistan. All that entitlement yet they haven’t had any great leaders neither their freedom movements have had any substance to capture world attention on a serious note.

People in Azad Kashmir are mainly pro Pakistan so people aren’t as fussed about what’s happening in Kashmir valley...

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Is there a precedent for several POTWs being made within the same thread? Because [MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] - current Time Pass POTW holder might I add - deserves no less.

I too am bored of the eternal sookfest that is Kashmir. Screw them - Regards, India & Pakistan.

Don’t lump Pakistan into it. As a proud Pakistani from Kashmir, sign on India behalf only.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

It’s a little irresponsible to state that a collaborator who was one of 87 MLAs in J and K Parliament, without these people there is no India in Kashmir.

I’m a proud Pakistani who happens to be from Kashmir, but I find your lack of understanding in parts slightly bizarre, despite your decent understanding in other areas.

There is propaganda promoted by Indian media which has succeeded in diverting some of the pro Pakistani people from Kashmir into pro independence.

The U.K. and Europe based ones are mainly pro Pakistan as are people back in Kashmir (valley and AJK).

Srinagar is the hub of pro independence and they get the headlines. Fact is 8/10 districts in valley (minus Srinagar and Budgam)
and AJK are pro Pakistan.

I’m also fed up of a few nationalist Kashmiris but let’s not tarnish all of us with the same brush.

Ps since 90s, lack of Kashmir policy caused diversion of some pro Pak into nationalists..but pro Pak still majority

What I meant to say is it’s irresponsible to use Omar as an example.

 

[Varun]

Don’t lump Pakistan into it. As a proud Pakistani from Kashmir, sign on India behalf only.

You're from Kashmir - that's the whole point.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

You're from Kashmir - that's the whole point.

The important point is that this is framed as an independence movement by some when this is not the case at all.

 

[Varun]

The important point is that this is framed as an independence movement by some when this is not the case at all.

At this point I don't care what it is.

Leave us alone.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

At this point I don't care what it is.

Leave us alone.

No Varun. India should leave us alone. We didn’t ask for their occupation from 1947. Let Muslim majority areas of J and K join Pakistan and other areas join India. It’s a fair call.

 

[PakLFC]

That is overly harsh, especially on Azad Kashmiris.

There are some Pashtun people, Balochi people, Sindhis that want independence and that value their ethnicity over the Pakistani national identity.

So it isnt limited to Azad Kashmiris, which probably also has some people who want independence.

But to say majority of Azad Kashmiris want independence I dont think is accurate, which is why you dont see the type of independence movement as in IOK.

They don't want independence from Pak like Kashmiris do. It is fiine to be proud of your Punjabiat and Pathaniat however the country comes first. Burst the Kashmiri bubble and let them go and in no time will they be begging to return. Those in India will be begging Delhi after all the money stops as well.

 

[PakLFC]

It’s a little irresponsible to state that a collaborator who was one of 87 MLAs in J and K Parliament, without these people there is no India in Kashmir.

I’m a proud Pakistani who happens to be from Kashmir, but I find your lack of understanding in parts slightly bizarre, despite your decent understanding in other areas.

There is propaganda promoted by Indian media which has succeeded in diverting some of the pro Pakistani people from Kashmir into pro independence.

The U.K. and Europe based ones are mainly pro Pakistan as are people back in Kashmir (valley and AJK).

Srinagar is the hub of pro independence and they get the headlines. Fact is 8/10 districts in valley (minus Srinagar and Budgam)
and AJK are pro Pakistan.

I’m also fed up of a few nationalist Kashmiris but let’s not tarnish all of us with the same brush.

Ps since 90s, lack of Kashmir policy caused diversion of some pro Pak into nationalists..but pro Pak still majority

Many Pakistanis are now giving Kashmiris the right to complete freedom which is what most want!! You can be united with your long lost brethren across the LOC and fight the Indian forces on your own. This means that the choice to merge with Pakistan has been revoked giving Kashmiri people only two choices now! I am afraid my experiences are from talking to many Kashmiris and not Indian news channels, I too once believed that most Kashmiris wanted to join Pak but now realise my error. If India wants Kashmir then they are welcome to it, at least Pak soldiers will no longer have to die for what is a unsolvable quagmire.

As for Kashmiris burying their dead in Pak flags it is simply a ploy to upset India and it's troops. It's like me carrying an Aussie flag in a India-Aussie Cricket match to make clear that I am not supporting India, it is not to be seen as I wanting to join Australia or being Australian! If Pakistan wants to prosper then we must get the Kashmir blood sucking vampire of our back then see Pak go! Most independence loving Kashmiris will be crying tears of blood when Indian forces land on what is currently Pakistani administered Kashmir. Let India spend billions in occupying that land and fighting Kashmiri youth! Most Kashmiris are like Omar, he speaks in front of thousands. Pak should call their bluff and let it go!

 

[PakLFC]

Kashmiris much like the Palestianians are full of themselves thinking there is no life beyond them. This is due to both the Pakistani and Indian journalists telling them how important they are that the subcontinent will collapse without them. No! It is the Kashmiris who are nothing without India or Pakistan which they'll realise when they are thrown out, their passports confiscated, educational institutions closed to them and their money stopped by Islamabad and Delhi. They can then have their "free Kashmir" and do whatever they want with it! Pak will prosper without it, most Pakistanis like me have not even seen Kashmir and have no desire to do so then what do we care! Pakistan is for those who want to be Pakistanis not a egotistic community who change their minds every day.

 

[PakLFC]

So who started this mess?

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION]

The British did! If Kashmiri people want to deal with the root cause of this conflict then take it up with the Brits. Deliberately did they leave it unresolved so that Pak and India keep fighting over it. It was for them to resolve this issue before they departed.

 

[ExplicitAI]

Majority of people from Azad Kashmir aren't even ethnically Kashmiri, they're pure Punjabis belonging to either Jatt, Gujjar, Rajput clans (there's more) but the actual proper Kashmiris live way further up the map. They're literally the exact same race as Indian Punjabis but with a different dialect. But to answer the OP, the demand for a separate state seems like it would take effort, I'm just praying that no more innocent lives are lost.

 

[Varun]

No Varun. India should leave us alone. We didn’t ask for their occupation from 1947. Let Muslim majority areas of J and K join Pakistan and other areas join India. It’s a fair call.

Sounds like a plan. Just make me PM. I'd remove our troops - and by consequence - save billions of ₹₹₹ - the day after. No more Siachen glacier, Aksai Chin or all that jazz. We'll keep Jammu and Ladakh though.

No hanky panky on either side after that. Capiche?

 

[Adijazz1706]

Sounds like a plan. Just make me PM. I'd remove our troops - and by consequence - save billions of ₹₹₹ - the day after. No more Siachen glacier, Aksai Chin or all that jazz. We'll keep Jammu and Ladakh though.

No hanky panky on either side after that. Capiche?

Cool, let's shake on it bro

 

[Banter]

No Varun. India should leave us alone. We didn’t ask for their occupation from 1947. Let Muslim majority areas of J and K join Pakistan and other areas join India. It’s a fair call.

You need to go ask your elders about how the tribal "liberators" treated the Kashmiris during the initial incursion into J&K in 1948. For an entire generation, the Kashmiris were singing a very different tune then. Wonder why that was.

 

[Pakistanian]

Majority of people from Azad Kashmir aren't even ethnically Kashmiri, they're pure Punjabis belonging to either Jatt, Gujjar, Rajput clans (there's more) but the actual proper Kashmiris live way further up the map. They're literally the exact same race as Indian Punjabis but with a different dialect. But to answer the OP, the demand for a separate state seems like it would take effort, I'm just praying that no more innocent lives are lost.

I wouldn't call them Punjabis, they Paharis or Potoharis and share similarities with the Hindko people in Abbotabad and the Potohari speakers in Rawalpindi.

They aren't the exact same as Indian Punjabis, they're exactly like people from Indian Jammu.

 

[amax]

Majority of people from Azad Kashmir aren't even ethnically Kashmiri, they're pure Punjabis belonging to either Jatt, Gujjar, Rajput clans (there's more) but the actual proper Kashmiris live way further up the map. They're literally the exact same race as Indian Punjabis but with a different dialect. But to answer the OP, the demand for a separate state seems like it would take effort, I'm just praying that no more innocent lives are lost.

even many mainland Pakistani Punjabis are not exactly same as Indian Punjabis(tribes like arains) let alone people of AJK , they are Paharis and have unique identity closely related to people of Murree though.

 

[amax]

Constitutional Status of GB , biggest causality of Kashmir Dispute in my opinion

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1878504/6-conundrum-called-gilgit-baltistan/

"In 1846, after years of war, Gilgit-Baltistan, or for brevity’s sake G-B, became a part of the state known as Jammu and Kashmir. At that point, who could have known that this singular act would create the ripples that would prevent G-B from ever officially becoming a part of Pakistan."

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Sounds like a plan. Just make me PM. I'd remove our troops - and by consequence - save billions of ₹₹₹ - the day after. No more Siachen glacier, Aksai Chin or all that jazz. We'll keep Jammu and Ladakh though.

No hanky panky on either side after that. Capiche?

We will take Rajouri, Doda, Bhaderwah etc in Jammu that are mainly Muslim. So yeah, split down lines on religion then draw a proper border.

That solution would suit everyone

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

You need to go ask your elders about how the tribal "liberators" treated the Kashmiris during the initial incursion into J&K in 1948. For an entire generation, the Kashmiris were singing a very different tune then. Wonder why that was.

There were some idiots but India were already in Kashmir when the Poonch rebellion started.

 

[Banter]

There were some idiots but India were already in Kashmir when the Poonch rebellion started.

I'm not interested in dueling narratives with you - the facts of history are there for all to see.

Partition was a messy divorce and there were a lot of border disputes that were settled in violence. Kashmir's geography meant that neither side could manage to get total control over the entire territory quickly enough. At that point, Kashmiris should have chosen to use their special status to act as a bridge connecting the 2 brother nations that were carved out. Instead of succumbing to the ethno-religious divisive nonsense. I'm an optimist. I still believe that a couple of generations from now, this can happen.
India-Pakistan can be just other neighboring countries, and J&K residents can have a 'normal' existence.

But for that to happen, my Pakistani brothers will have to succeed in getting their own right to "self-determination", freedom and self-governance, by escaping the clutches of a military elite that is forcing an unnecessary hostility for its own purposes. This will take some time.

 

[ExplicitAI]

even many mainland Pakistani Punjabis are not exactly same as Indian Punjabis(tribes like arains) let alone people of AJK , they are Paharis and have unique identity closely related to people of Murree though.

What if you're Jatt (Chaudhry)? I'm not Arain myself I only found about their existence couple months ago.

 

[ExplicitAI]

I wouldn't call them Punjabis, they Paharis or Potoharis and share similarities with the Hindko people in Abbotabad and the Potohari speakers in Rawalpindi.

They aren't the exact same as Indian Punjabis, they're exactly like people from Indian Jammu.

Wiki says that majority of people from Azad Kashmir are not ethnically Kashmiris by blood, they're ethnically Punjabis. Some people love this obsession with having minor differences and making them seem bigger than they really are; my caste is Jatt (Chaudhry) and my parents refer to ourselves as Punjabis from Azad Kashmir.

 

[Pakistanian]

Wiki says that majority of people from Azad Kashmir are not ethnically Kashmiris by blood, they're ethnically Punjabis. Some people love this obsession with having minor differences and making them seem bigger than they really are; my caste is Jatt (Chaudhry) and my parents refer to ourselves as Punjabis from Azad Kashmir.

You're missing the point. Of course people in Azad Kashmir aren't "ethnic Kashmiris", they're paharis and they're not living in the kashmir valley which is in India and home to ethnic Kashmiris. I already stated if you could read.

And no they are not Punjabis, they speak pahari which is similar to standard to Punjabi but more closer to Hindko, it would be like calling people from Abbotabad "Punjabis". If you identify as Punjabi, that's your choice.

Btw it's officially Azad JAMMU & Kashmir, mirpur is located in the jammu part but people shorten it to "Azad Kashmir". Kashmir starts north of the kohala bridge and lies between the himilayas and pir panjal mountains.

 

[Bilal_103]

Wiki says that majority of people from Azad Kashmir are not ethnically Kashmiris by blood, they're ethnically Punjabis. Some people love this obsession with having minor differences and making them seem bigger than they really are; my caste is Jatt (Chaudhry) and my parents refer to ourselves as Punjabis from Azad Kashmir.

There are also people with Afghan/Pashtun ancestry especially in poonch district. My point is people of Azad Kashmir choose to be called Kashmiris. Identities are based upon political and historical narratives as much as they are based upon cultural or linguistic ones.

 

[ElRaja]

a genuine question for indians, do you believe all those kashmiri pandits who left the valley really want to be sent back?

i imagine nearly 30 years is a long enough time for you to settle into where ever you have moved to.

would they really want to leave their communities, jobs, friends, etc to move back to a valley which has socio economic problems of its own?

fwiw afaik if your an ethnic kashmiri you can move back, so whats stopping them?

 

[Romali_rotti]

fwiw afaik if your an ethnic kashmiri you can move back, so whats stopping them?

Ohh geez I don't know, maybe those psycho muslims who drove em out still live there ?


inB4

The denial brigade come out of the woods...

 

[Napa]

a genuine question for indians, do you believe all those kashmiri pandits who left the valley really want to be sent back?

i imagine nearly 30 years is a long enough time for you to settle into where ever you have moved to.

would they really want to leave their communities, jobs, friends, etc to move back to a valley which has socio economic problems of its own?

<b>fwiw afaik if your an ethnic kashmiri you can move back, so whats stopping them?</b>

The same thing that caused them to leave in the first place, the threat of a terrorist bullet in the head.

 

[ElRaja]

The same thing that caused them to leave in the first place, the threat of a terrorist bullet in the head.

Ohh geez I don't know, maybe those psycho muslims who drove em out still live there ?

im glad you both said that, and i was hoping you would. so how do u re settle them? how will they ever get the confidence that their psycho, terrorist neighbours wont pull a bullet in em as long as there are muslims in the valley.

i specifically asked that because there is no practical way you can address a perception. as long as the valley muslims are perceived as psycho terrorists there is no solution, and there is no objective way you change a perception.

 

[Pakistanian]

The same thing that caused them to leave in the first place, the threat of a terrorist bullet in the head.

No, it's cause of money. Hindus were gradually leaving the valley before partition and it increased after India's independence. I don't think most Hindu kashmiris will quit their jobs, businesses, cut the new roots they've put down, their social lives etc and move back to a now foreign land. That is like expecting Indian-Americans born and raised in America to move to India, it isn't reasonable.

 

[Pakistanian]

Ohh geez I don't know, maybe those psycho muslims who drove em out still live there ?


inB4

The denial brigade come out of the woods...

Nah, it's more like the children and grandchildren of those hindu migrants don't want to move to a land they didn't grow up in.

 

[Romali_rotti]

No, it's cause of money. Hindus were gradually leaving the valley before partition and it increased after India's independence. I don't think most Hindu kashmiris will quit their jobs, businesses, cut the new roots they've put down, their social lives etc and move back to a now foreign land. That is like expecting Indian-Americans born and raised in America to move to India, it isn't reasonable.

The first of the denial crew has arrived... That didnt take long lol

 

[Romali_rotti]

Nah, it's more like the children and grandchildren of those hindu migrants don't want to move to a land they didn't grow up in.

That's not what the OP is indicating...

 

[Pakistanian]

That's not what the OP is indicating...

It only indicates that "some migrants", most likely a small subset of the older generation who have any ties to the valley. Every passing generation the less connected they will feel to kashmir.

 

[Pakistanian]

The first of the denial crew has arrived... That didnt take long lol

It's just a realistic undestanding. Hindus that left kashmir 3 decades ago have put down roots elsewhere, they have jobs, businesses, built a social life away from kashmir - nobody's gonna give that up just cause of some sentimental value lmaoo otherwise the descendants of immigrants from around the world would be moving back to the land of their grandparents. You live in australia and I doubt you or any indian expat would give up their career and everything they've build in a new land to move to India just out of patriotism.

 

[Romali_rotti]

It's just a realistic undestanding. Hindus that left kashmir 3 decades ago have put down roots elsewhere, they have jobs, businesses, built a social life away from kashmir - nobody's gonna give that up just cause of some sentimental value lmaoo otherwise the descendants of immigrants from around the world would be moving back to the land of their grandparents. You live in australia and I doubt you or any indian expat would give up their career and everything they've build in a new land to move to India just out of patriotism.

You are comparing apples and oranges here, I have lived all over the world. Part of me wants to be back in the US, I grew up there, loved the American culture..... However I wasn't forced out of India by evil, had I been, I would definitely want to be back to correct the injustice that was done to me (my personal perspective on this).... No amount of denial will take away what was done to the Pandits....

 

[GBK_Fan]

a genuine question for indians, do you believe all those kashmiri pandits who left the valley really want to be sent back?

i imagine nearly 30 years is a long enough time for you to settle into where ever you have moved to.

would they really want to leave their communities, jobs, friends, etc to move back to a valley which has socio economic problems of its own?

fwiw afaik if your an ethnic kashmiri you can move back, so whats stopping them?

Do you have the same question for the Palestinians? Will your opinion be the same if say you are forcibly and wrongly evicted from your home, under threat of violence?

 

[ElRaja]

Do you have the same question for the Palestinians?

its a poor attempt at deflecting the question but ill entertain you.

yes, if resettlement in currently occupied Jewish lands is what they desire. i would ask exactly the same questions because it is what separates the actual requirement to return versus (justifiable) revanchism.

Will your opinion be the same if say you are forcibly and wrongly evicted from your home, under threat of violence?

no, but that would be my emotions getting the better of me. Im thirty odd, and if i thought about it practically once the red mist settled, assuming i was kicked out of my home as a kid and spent my whole life somewhere else, id like those who kicked my parents out to be served justice, and i would like to visit as and when i pleased, but there is no way id quit my job, leave my friends, and move to an economically worse off place.

ive answered honestly, now your turn, would you?

 

[gazza619]

India is in grave danger by these extremists.

 

[GBK_Fan]

its a poor attempt at deflecting the question but ill entertain you.

yes, if resettlement in currently occupied Jewish lands is what they desire. i would ask exactly the same questions because it is what separates the actual requirement to return versus (justifiable) revanchism.



no, but that would be my emotions getting the better of me. Im thirty odd, and if i thought about it practically once the red mist settled, assuming i was kicked out of my home as a kid and spent my whole life somewhere else, id like those who kicked my parents out to be served justice, and i would like to visit as and when i pleased, but there is no way id quit my job, leave my friends, and move to an economically worse off place.

ive answered honestly, now your turn, would you?

It’s not deflection. It’s a honest question whether you have the same standards for all people. There are many here including Kashmiris themselves who cry hoarse for Palestinians but then walk away when we talk about the Pandits.

As for your other part, it depends really if you actually are economically well off. You may yearn for the ancestral land/property, take pride in your identity or simply be the stand up for what’s right kind. Who are we to stop people from reclaiming what’s rightfully theirs?

 

[Napa]

im glad you both said that, and i was hoping you would. so how do u re settle them? how will they ever get the confidence that their psycho, terrorist neighbours wont pull a bullet in em as long as there are muslims in the valley.

i specifically asked that because there is no practical way you can address a perception. as long as the valley muslims are perceived as psycho terrorists there is no solution, and there is no objective way you change a perception.

It is not a "perception", it is a "reality". Obviously the plea to have a separate township is in the hope that if the populations are separated, they Pandits will be safer.

I assume that you don't advise the Palestinians that there is no "objective way" in which the Israelis will change their behavior so they should accept their current circumstances.

 

[Napa]

No, it's cause of money. Hindus were gradually leaving the valley before partition and it increased after India's independence. I don't think most Hindu kashmiris will quit their jobs, businesses, cut the new roots they've put down, their social lives etc and move back to a now foreign land. That is like expecting Indian-Americans born and raised in America to move to India, it isn't reasonable.

Pardon me for accepting what the Kashmiri Pandits are saying their motivations are, rather than accepting your opinion of what their motivations are.

 

[Pakistanian]

Pardon me for accepting what the Kashmiri Pandits are saying their motivations are, rather than accepting your opinion of what their motivations are.

and who exactly speaks for them? they're individuals like everybody else.

 

[Napa]

and who exactly speaks for them? they're individuals like everybody else.

Their organizations of course, just like PLO and Hamas speak for the Palestinians.

 

[Balthazar]

WTH. What were our army doing around this time and beat the heck out of these terrorists?

 

[ElRaja]

It is not a "perception", it is a "reality". Obviously the plea to have a separate township is in the hope that if the populations are separated, they Pandits will be safer.

wait, are u saying its ok to describe the valley muslims as psycho terrorists?

As for your other part, it depends really if you actually are economically well off. You may yearn for the ancestral land/property, take pride in your identity or simply be the stand up for what’s right kind. Who are we to stop people from reclaiming what’s rightfully theirs?

and theres the crux of it, i am not saying stop anyone. but if they are to go back and they want government resources and military protection i would assume that it would be on the grounds of an immediate need.

I assume that you don't advise the Palestinians that there is no "objective way" in which the Israelis will change their behavior so they should accept their current circumstances.

There are many here including Kashmiris themselves who cry hoarse for Palestinians but then walk away when we talk about the Pandits.

since you both are roughly asking the same thing ill answer both points, [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] yes, as it is i think Palestinians need to wake up and realise Israel ain't going anywhere, they imo need to make peace with that and forget the idea of a two state solution.

do i understand where the demand for a separate state comes from, yes, do i understand why they fight for it, yes, do i think it is a practical possibility that is worth the cost in terms of lives, and economic well being the Palestinians pay for it? no.

you cant solve a problem until you at least identify it and Palestinians thinking they can compete against israel is fantasy bordering on delusion. imo they should work towards unification with and rights within the state of israel.

 

[GBK_Fan]

wait, are u saying its ok to describe the valley muslims as psycho terrorists?



and theres the crux of it, i am not saying stop anyone. but if they are to go back and they want government resources and military protection i would assume that it would be on the grounds of an immediate need.





since you both are roughly asking the same thing ill answer both points, [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] yes, as it is i think Palestinians need to wake up and realise Israel ain't going anywhere, they imo need to make peace with that and forget the idea of a two state solution.

do i understand where the demand for a separate state comes from, yes, do i understand why they fight for it, yes, do i think it is a practical possibility that is worth the cost in terms of lives, and economic well being the Palestinians pay for it? no.

you cant solve a problem until you at least identify it and Palestinians thinking they can compete against israel is fantasy bordering on delusion. imo they should work towards unification with and rights within the state of israel.

Think you mixed my posts with [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

Anyways if the Pandits do end up going to the valley we should support them by all means necessary:
1. The state actively failed them in the 90s
2. In recent times the separatists in the valley have resorted to all kinds of underhand tactics to reduce the Hindu majority districts. This includes settling the Rohingyas and giving them PR cards. The same cards which have been denied to refugees living in the state since partition. Now guess the religion of those refugees
3. We cannot have militants with guns driving away legitimate owners. The state ceases to exist in that case and we have been treating this issue with kid gloves for too long.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You live in australia and I doubt you or any indian expat would give up their career and everything they've build in a new land to move to India just out of patriotism.

I should have given you this example instead of my earlier post.

I have a close friend of mine who is Egyptian, he and his family had to leave Egypt due to the persecution by the local Muslims because he was Christian. His family was thrown out of their house and all their belongings taken from them. He came here at a young age of 18, now well into his 40s is quite a wealthy man due to his hardwork, however he still dreams of the day he could go back, at the end of the day he feels that is home and feels a deep rooted connection to the land...

 

[Napa]

wait, are u saying its ok to describe the valley muslims as psycho terrorists?

The Pandit's perception that they will be attacked and possibly killed.

and theres the crux of it, i am not saying stop anyone. but if they are to go back and they want government resources and military protection i would assume that it would be on the grounds of an immediate need.


since you both are roughly asking the same thing ill answer both points, [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] yes, as it is i think Palestinians need to wake up and realise Israel ain't going anywhere, they imo need to make peace with that and forget the idea of a two state solution.

do i understand where the demand for a separate state comes from, yes, do i understand why they fight for it, yes, do i think it is a practical possibility that is worth the cost in terms of lives, and economic well being the Palestinians pay for it? no.

you cant solve a problem until you at least identify it and Palestinians thinking they can compete against israel is fantasy bordering on delusion. imo they should work towards unification with and rights within the state of israel.

You sort of mixed up GBK's and my posts. Anyway, the Israelis do not want to unify with the Palestinians. The Kashmiri Muslims on the other hand would likely unify with the Pandits if the Pandits converted to Islam, which now has many more followers than Judaism as it encourages conversion.

 

[MenInG]

Srinagar: Protests are being held in several parts of Jammu and Kashmir since last evening as Kashmiri Pandits demand safety in the wake of the killing of a 36-year-old government employee from the community.
Members of the community left their transit camps, blocked roads and raised slogans against the central government and BJP, saying they have failed them.

Over four thousand Kashmiri Pandits are living in transit camps in various parts of Kashmir after they were given government jobs under a special employment package launched in 2010.

The angry protesters also raised slogans against Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Union Home Minister Amit Shah and Jammu and Kashmir Lieutenant Governor Manoj Sinha. At several places, candlelight marches were also held.

"We condemn this shameful incident. We ask the government, is this rehabilitation? Did they bring us here to get killed? There is no security here," said Ranjan Zutshi, a protester.

Another protester said, "We are here to work, we have nothing to do with anything else. Why are they killing us? Just tell us what is our crime? The administration has failed."

Sanjay, a protester, told NDTV that despite assurances by authorities, attacks targeting the community continue. "See the gravity of the situation, a tehsildar's office is meant to be a secure place. He (Bhat) was working at his table and bullets pierced his body. He was shot point-blank. The system has collapsed, security has collapsed, safety has collapsed."

At a protest at Shekhpora in Budgam, local Muslims joined the Kashmiri Pandits, serving them water and demanding justice and safety for members of the community.

In what appeared to be another targeted attack, terrorists barged into the Tehsildar's office at Chadoora village in Budgam district yesterday and shot Rahul Bhat. He was rushed to a hospital where he succumbed to his injuries.

The 36-year-old had been working in Budgam district for the past 10 years after his appointment under a special package to rehabilitate Kashmiri Pandits. His body was taken to Jammu for last rites.

Rahul Bhat is the third Kashmiri Pandit to be killed in the past six months. Two others have been injured.

Targeted killings in Kashmir started in October. The victims were mostly migrant workers who came in search of jobs and Kashmiri Pandits.

In October, seven civilians were killed in five days -- among them a Kashmiri Pandit, a Sikh and two migrant Hindus.

Shortly after, many Kashmiri Pandit families fled their homes in Sheikhpora - home to the minority community.

Rahul Bhat's killing has yet again brought to the fore the challenges to rehabilitating the Kashmiri Pandit community.

While the government has announced several schemes and made appeals to the members of the community to come back to the Valley, repeated attacks on Kashmiri Pandits raise the critical question of whether they will be safe if they return.

NDTV