Koh-i-noor diamond not part of King Charles III’s coronation - Should UK return this?

[KingKhanWC]

LONDON (AP) — The Koh-i-noor diamond won’t be used during King Charles III’s coronation, allowing Buckingham Palace to sidestep the controversy surrounding a gem acquired during the age of Empire.

Camilla, the queen consort, will not to use the diamond in her coronation crown. Rather than commission a new crown, as is customary, Camilla will modify Queen Mary’s crown using diamonds from Queen Elizabeth II’s personal collection, the palace said in a statement Tuesday.

Some observers had speculated that Camilla would be crowned with the crown made for Queen Elizabeth, the queen mother, in 1937, which had the Koh-i-noor diamond as its centerpiece.

That reportedly sparked concern from some people in India, who said using the Koh-i-noor in the coronation could be an uncomfortable reminder of Britain’s oppressive past.

Seized by the East India Company after its victory in the Second Anglo-Sikh War of 1849, the gem was given to Queen Victoria and has remained part of the Crown Jewels ever since. But countries including India, Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan have all claimed ownership.

https://apnews.com/article/queen-el...-the-consort-87978101474eb8561927c05b68185844

@mods please can we have a poll?

I used to agree it should be returned but now I feel it shouldn't. Too many nations are claiming ownership. If given to India, it wont help the masses of poor there.

What is your view?

 

[sweep_shot]

I say sell it and distribute the money to the poor.

It is just an object. There is no point in preserving it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I say sell it and distribute the money to the poor.

It is just an object. There is no point in preserving it.

Good idea, its estimated to worth upto $400 million.

Check out this debate, both are poor debaters imo but interesting how heated people are getting due to patriotism. One is an Indian far righter and the other a Brit.

 

[Robert]

Yes. It would go a little way to apologising for the human rights abuses of the Raj. At least it would start a dialogue.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes. It would go a little way to apologising for the human rights abuses of the Raj. At least it would start a dialogue.

Hi Robert. Which human rights are you alluding too? Also forgive my ignorance, has the UK apologised in writing or a statement?

My view is its better here than in the hands of religious extremists in India.

 

[Technics 1210]

Well if you are going to start returning a diamond for the sake of apologising, then start returning land that was stolen. Yeah, thought so. Liberals will not agree to this because it would mean Putin will then have full justification to reclaim land that was stolen from Russia - oh wait . . .

This lunacy must end, it's just a sparkling rock, that can also be created in a lab, and $400M is pittance compared to the so called amount of money that India earn in a day!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well if you are going to start returning a diamond for the sake of apologising, then start returning land that was stolen. Yeah, thought so. Liberals will not agree to this because it would mean Putin will then have full justification to reclaim land that was stolen from Russia - oh wait . . .

This lunacy must end, it's just a sparkling rock, that can also be created in a lab, and $400M is pittance compared to the so called amount of money that India earn in a day!

I dont think India has a credible claim and tbh they should be embarrassed begging for it. The Brits came with a total armed force of 40,000 over most of its time in India. Surely India should accept, they were ruled easily and accept history. It was taken from Lahore, which is in Pakistan. As you say its only a diamond, not Ghandis stick.

 

[Local.Dada]

The Kohinoor adds nothing to UK. It’s just a reflection of its colonizing past and reminiscent of some of the atrocities they committed on the locals. Sure it might be a museum attraction but that’s about it. Even the attraction is mostly visited by Indian tourists anyways.The cons outweigh the pros

It should be handed over to India.

What better time with a strong, stable and capable leadership in India and a UK Pm who probably has some amount of emotional association even if minimal to the horrific past of colonialism due to his origins. Time to set things right and start a great new relationship in the new era as the 5th and 6th largest economies in the world. Sky is the limit. Trade, combating internal security issues etc a lot can be accomplished. Modi can make it happen if he takes the initiative.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

The Kohinoor adds nothing to UK. It’s just a reflection of its colonizing past and reminiscent of some of the atrocities they committed on the locals. Sure it might be a museum attraction but that’s about it. Even the attraction is mostly visited by Indian tourists anyways.The cons outweigh the pros

It should be handed over to India.

What better time with a strong, stable and capable leadership in India and a UK Pm who probably has some amount of emotional association even if minimal to the horrific past of colonialism due to his origins. Time to set things right and start a great new relationship in the new era as the 5th and 6th largest economies in the world. Sky is the limit. Trade, combating internal security issues etc a lot can be accomplished. Modi can make it happen if he takes the initiative.

It was taken from sikh empire based in Lahore. Since there is no Khalistan right now who does it go to. Makes sense to send to Lahore

 

[Local.Dada]

It was taken from sikh empire based in Lahore. Since there is no Khalistan right now who does it go to. Makes sense to send to Lahore

who in their right mind will hand over a heritage artifact that too a million dollar diamond to the establishment in Pakistan? All it takes for some
loon to say it’s unislamic to keep diamonds.

In India maximum some guy will say the diamond has Hindu origins or whatever but we know how to value assets. The debate will stop there

Anyway most of it is rhetoric. There was no Pakistan before 1947 but Bharat, Hindustan has been around forever. Don’t waste time arguing with me, let the “intellectuals” of Pakistan and India debate this out if it’s an issue. We know how that will go denial or no denial.

 

[Robert]

Hi Robert. Which human rights are you alluding to? Also forgive my ignorance, has the UK apologised in writing or a statement?

My better here than in the hands of religious extremists in India.

Well this is a weird reversal. After telling us the Empire was evil for hundreds of posts you are asking me what human rights abuses took place under it.

No, HM Gov has not apologised to the Indians.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The Kohi-noor belongs to Indian region, it's a relic of British Empire. But how badly do India want it? If they really felt it belonged to them, surely they would have made far more vociferous demands? Shout louder India, don't shuffle your feet and whisper it. If you want it, challenge with some authority, maybe someone will then listen.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

who in their right mind will hand over a heritage artifact that too a million dollar diamond to the establishment in Pakistan? All it takes for some
loon to say it’s unislamic to keep diamonds.

In India maximum some guy will say the diamond has Hindu origins or whatever but we know how to value assets. The debate will stop there

Anyway most of it is rhetoric. There was no Pakistan before 1947 but Bharat, Hindustan has been around forever. Don’t waste time arguing with me, let the “intellectuals” of Pakistan and India debate this out if it’s an issue. We know how that will go denial or no denial.

There was no united Hindustan brother

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think it would be cool to let India and Pakistan both have it for short periods of time say 2-3 times each and then do a handover ceremony when it passed to the other side.

However, apart from in intellectual circles, I don't think many ordinary people from either country could give two hoots about the diamond.

 

[Local.Dada]

There was no united Hindustan brother

Wrong there was no India but this region has been called Bharat in our epics written thousands of years ago. Referred to names like Hindustan/ Bharat right from Alexander to British. British called it “British East India company” for a reason and Mughals and other Islamic invaders documented their conquests as conquest as Hindustan.

Sure there was no constitutions and supreme courts or democracy back in the day if that’s your benchmark for your conclusion.

Have you heard the term Indian subcontinent? This wasn’t a new invention.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Wrong there was no India but this region has been called Bharat in our epics written thousands of years ago. Referred to names like Hindustan/ Bharat right from Alexander to British. British called it “British East India company” for a reason and Mughals and other Islamic invaders documented their conquests as conquest as Hindustan.

Sure there was no constitutions and supreme courts or democracy back in the day if that’s your benchmark for your conclusion.

Have you heard the term Indian subcontinent? This wasn’t a new invention.

It's a geographical term.

That's why there were so many empires that fought each other over different regions, established their own kingdoms, laws and dominions.

If you can show me a time where there was one authority ruling over the the whole subcontinent then I would much appreciate it.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

who in their right mind will hand over a heritage artifact that too a million dollar diamond to the establishment in Pakistan? All it takes for some
loon to say it’s unislamic to keep diamonds.

In India maximum some guy will say the diamond has Hindu origins or whatever but we know how to value assets. The debate will stop there

Anyway most of it is rhetoric. There was no Pakistan before 1947 but Bharat, Hindustan has been around forever. Don’t waste time arguing with me, let the “intellectuals” of Pakistan and India debate this out if it’s an issue. We know how that will go denial or no denial.

There was no Bharat before 1947 either. There was British India and before them it was Mughals, Delhi Sumranate, Marathas, etc etc but no India.

 

[PakLFC]

There was British India before 1947. Before that Mughal India and prior to that the entire region was divided in to many small states. This is what many sane people like Amritpal Singh believe too. As for the Koh-i-Noor jewel it is better if the British keep it now. Even if it was commissioned by Muslim ruler Shah Jahan Pakistanis and Indian Muslim's will fight over it today over Shah Jahan's nationality. The Brit's know well that so many people are contesting this wonderful diamond. Better to let sleeping dog's rest permanently instead of making them fight.

 

[PakLFC]

To suggest India was once a big happy Hindu Raj with cows producing honey and streets made of gold is complete hearsay and a mythical fantasy. It was not the Hindu's but Muslim's that produced the Koh-i-Noor. It is impossible that other claimants Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran will let Hindu's or even Sikh's have the jewel, forget it.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Those making false claims forget that the historical fact is that the Kohinoor was mined from Kollur mines by the Kakatiya emperors and not produced by some invader from central Asia.

 

[cricketjoshila]

There was no Bharat before 1947 either. There was British India and before them it was Mughals, Delhi Sumranate, Marathas, etc etc but no India.

Incorrect.

Read the book Indica by Megasthenes. This area was always known as India among the greeks and Europeans.

Columbus went in search of India, found America and named it East Indies islands. Numerous european explorers went in search of a route to India.

For the Arabs Persians Central Asians the word Hind was used to denote the area.

Ancient Indian texts written thousands of years ago refer to the area as Bharat.

The idea of nation states is barely 200 years old but the idea of Calling a particular geographical area by a specific name is eons old.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Incorrect.

Read the book Indica by Megasthenes. This area was always known as India among the greeks and Europeans.

Columbus went in search of India, found America and named it East Indies islands. Numerous european explorers went in search of a route to India.

For the Arabs Persians Central Asians the word Hind was used to denote the area.

Ancient Indian texts written thousands of years ago refer to the area as Bharat.

The idea of nation states is barely 200 years old but the idea of Calling a particular geographical area by a specific name is eons old.

Yea it was a regional area made up of several entities. These entities were part of a region and didn’t see themselves as one entity or identity. Not a modern nation state as it is today.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well this is a weird reversal. After telling us the Empire was evil for hundreds of posts you are asking me what human rights abuses took place under it.

No, HM Gov has not apologised to the Indians.

I still do Robert but was pleasantly surprised you agree on this occasion.

Why would you want HM Gov to apologise? Which crimes are you referring too my friend?

 

[Robert]

I still do Robert but was pleasantly surprised you agree on this occasion.

Why would you want HM Gov to apologise? Which crimes are you referring to my friend?

Well, certainly the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre. That wasn’t incompetent famine management, that was flat out mass murder. Brigadier Dyer should have swung for that. Even Indian-hater Churchill called it “a monstrous event”.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well, certainly the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre. That wasn’t incompetent famine management, that was flat out mass murder. Brigadier Dyer should have swung for that. Even Indian-hater Churchill called it “a monstrous event”.

Fair call mate. Im just not sure this will be enough for India. It seems they are hell bent on wanting the diamond rather than an apology or even some other type of compensation. This is why I dont agree in returning it , its all going to be for show and bragging, the people will not benefit.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yea it was a regional area made up of several entities. These entities were part of a region and didn’t see themselves as one entity or identity. Not a modern nation state as it is today.

The idea of a nation state as we see today is barely 200 years old.

India as a region exists for long time.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Those making false claims forget that the historical fact is that the Kohinoor was mined from Kollur mines by the Kakatiya emperors and not produced by some invader from central Asia.

Nobody will dispute this. It is a historical fact.

But may I ask when Katakiyans fought against the Yadavas why were they fighting and who were they fighting against?

Did the Katakiyans view them as invaders?

If we resurrect both those sides and interview them do you think they will both say we are Indians ?

 

[PakLFC]

Were Ashoka or/and Bharata invaders as well?. Lets get real here and remember when this jewel was found and by whom. Any country who wants it now can buy it from the British like any other product. The Ambani's are loaded with so much wealth beyond our imagination living in a fantasy castle and all.

When India has 166 billionaires folks there should be absolutely no problem in them buying it like Arab's do Football clubs or the mega rich do IPL clubs. No other country including Pak will then question India's purchase if they complete such a transaction. Hey, to the spoils go to the victor.

I think the Brit's will sell if the right offer is made. Many years back i watched a Bollywood film "The return of the jewel theif" with the late Dev Anand playing the lead role. There in he suggests what I am doing that India being much richer then Pak should just buy the Koh-i-Noor from the British if they want it that badly. After that Pak or anyone else will have absolutely no right on the Koh-i-Noor at all. So India put your money where your mouth is telling your billionaires that for the sake of one upmanship over Pak just buy it from the Brit's.

 

[PakLFC]

Google says that the Kohinoor diamond is worth between $140 and $400 million. This is absolutely nothing for mega wealthy Indian billionaires. Just buy it if they want it that badly leaving Pak to either make a counter offer or shut them up. With the economic situation in Pak we are told by the Indian media that even a roti in Pak is beyond the reach of everyday Pak's. They also tell us that the ISI is financially supporting Amritpal Singh , I don't know how both can be true!

Pak won't be making any counter offer for the jewel to challenge India. It's all your's Dev Anand saheb!

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

The idea of a nation state as we see today is barely 200 years old.

India as a region exists for long time.

Yea you are agreeing with me.

indian subcontinent as a region made up several entities at any given time existed for a long time. It was seen as a region not a single unifying entity. A subject of the Mughal empire saw himself as a subject of a Mughal empire or his own ethnicity. Same with a subject of the Maratha empire or Sikh empire. They didn’t see themselves as ‘Indian’.

But the modern Indian state is a new creation.

 

[rickroll]

It should be returned to Pakistan. It was taken from Lahore and so it belongs to Pakistan, not India.

 

[rickroll]

https://apnews.com/article/queen-el...-the-consort-87978101474eb8561927c05b68185844

@mods please can we have a poll?

I used to agree it should be returned but now I feel it shouldn't. Too many nations are claiming ownership. If given to India, it wont help the masses of poor there.

What is your view?

Disagree with this on 2 counts

1. It should be returned to Pakistan and not India because it was taken from LAHORE. Just because India has many voices asking for it does not mean it is theirs (loudest is not always right)

2. The bolded part - If it is established that it should be returned to the rightful owner then it is not the "looter's" right to determine what the original owner will do, how good their intent is, etc. What the original owner (Pakistan IMO) chooses to do with their own assets should be of no concern to the outsiders, especially the looters.

 

[Robert]

Fair call mate. Im just not sure this will be enough for India. It seems they are hell bent on wanting the diamond rather than an apology or even some other type of compensation. This is why I dont agree in returning it , it’sall going to be for show and bragging, the people will not benefit.

So you would keep it buried in a vault in the Tower of London, never to see the light?

 

[MenInG]

Poll added

 

[MenInG]

The decision for Queen Camilla not to wear a particular diamond at the Coronation has been branded "woke" by the family who gifted it to the British Empire. King Charles had wanted Camilla to wear the Koh-i-Noor diamond, gifted to Queen Victoria in 1849 by the family of a Sikh emperor. However, it was decided it would not be worn over fears it could anger those who want it returned to them. But a descendent of the previous owner said he feels "insulted" it won't be included in the ceremony.

Dr Jaswinder Singh Sukherchakia told MailOnline they would "not have had an issues" with Camilla wearing the diamond, which is placed in Queen Victoria's crown.

A descendant of the jewel's previous owner, he said: "I don't understand why people are being so over-sensitive because you cannot change history.

"If we wouldn't have been offended by it then I don't understand why anybody else would be. We wish Camilla and Charles all the best. I will be watching the coronation on television and was actually looking forward to seeing the Koh-i-Noor and feel quite insulted that it won't be there."

Dr Sukherchakia said the "world should get to see" the diamond which was gifted to the late Queen Mother by Maharajah Ranjit Singh.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle...p&cvid=97e80453a1184d6aa017514ac3b5230b&ei=12

 

[Champ_Pal]

Brits can keep the diamond. They will need it in the future to buy some food from other nations.

 

[MenInG]

Brits can keep the diamond. They will need it in the future to buy some food from other nations.

Brits aren't asking for it back!

 

[cricketjoshila]

The decision for Queen Camilla not to wear a particular diamond at the Coronation has been branded "woke" by the family who gifted it to the British Empire. King Charles had wanted Camilla to wear the Koh-i-Noor diamond, gifted to Queen Victoria in 1849 by the family of a Sikh emperor. However, it was decided it would not be worn over fears it could anger those who want it returned to them. But a descendent of the previous owner said he feels "insulted" it won't be included in the ceremony.

Dr Jaswinder Singh Sukherchakia told MailOnline they would "not have had an issues" with Camilla wearing the diamond, which is placed in Queen Victoria's crown.

A descendant of the jewel's previous owner, he said: "I don't understand why people are being so over-sensitive because you cannot change history.

"If we wouldn't have been offended by it then I don't understand why anybody else would be. We wish Camilla and Charles all the best. I will be watching the coronation on television and was actually looking forward to seeing the Koh-i-Noor and feel quite insulted that it won't be there."

Dr Sukherchakia said the "world should get to see" the diamond which was gifted to the late Queen Mother by Maharajah Ranjit Singh.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle...p&cvid=97e80453a1184d6aa017514ac3b5230b&ei=12

What lies!!!!

Maharaja Ranjit Singh ji never gifted the Kohinoor.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The decision for Queen Camilla not to wear a particular diamond at the Coronation has been branded "woke" by the family who gifted it to the British Empire. King Charles had wanted Camilla to wear the Koh-i-Noor diamond, gifted to Queen Victoria in 1849 by the family of a Sikh emperor. However, it was decided it would not be worn over fears it could anger those who want it returned to them. But a descendent of the previous owner said he feels "insulted" it won't be included in the ceremony.

Dr Jaswinder Singh Sukherchakia told MailOnline they would "not have had an issues" with Camilla wearing the diamond, which is placed in Queen Victoria's crown.

A descendant of the jewel's previous owner, he said: "I don't understand why people are being so over-sensitive because you cannot change history.

"If we wouldn't have been offended by it then I don't understand why anybody else would be. We wish Camilla and Charles all the best. I will be watching the coronation on television and was actually looking forward to seeing the Koh-i-Noor and feel quite insulted that it won't be there."

Dr Sukherchakia said the "world should get to see" the diamond which was gifted to the late Queen Mother by Maharajah Ranjit Singh.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle...p&cvid=97e80453a1184d6aa017514ac3b5230b&ei=12

There you go , it was a gift.

Camilla should wear it as she will wear many other gems from around the world.

I think its just India in their usual delusion as some sort of superpower which can give orders to the world.

 

[Technics 1210]

There you go , it was a gift.

Camilla should wear it as she will wear many other gems from around the world.

I think its just India in their usual delusion as some sort of superpower which can give orders to the world.

Agree, Camilla should wear it whilst Sunak has in wife pay homage to the great British rule of India.

Nothing more dangerous than a nation scorned.

 

[MenInG]

Queen Camilla wore a historic necklace during the coronation on Saturday.

Known as "the Coronation Necklace," it was originally created for Queen Victoria in 1858, according to The Court Jeweller. Made of a total of 26 diamonds, including a giant 22.48-carat pendant called the Lahore diamond.

The stone was originally part of the Lahore Treasure in the Punjab region of what is now Pakistan until 1849, when the area was taken over by British colonists and "presented to Queen Victoria in 1851," according to the Royal Collection.

https://people.com/royals/queen-camilla-coronation-necklace-everything-to-know/

 

[Major]

Serves no purpose. You give it to Pakistan, India would keep whining about it for the rest of the lives. Just an artifact. What UK can do is pay Pakistan it's price.

In future, if Pakistan and India have friendly relations it could be a symbol of friendship where both countries give the diamond after every 3 years to each other with a ceremony; But thats far fetched.

 

[Rajdeep]

I don't speak for all Indians here* but as far as I know majority don't care about Kohinoor. It is just a piece of stone for us and has no symbolism at all with the idea of India. Queen Camilla can keep it with her as long as she wants.
#NoOneCaresAbtKohonoor





*or perhaps I do

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Agree, Camilla should wear it whilst Sunak has in wife pay homage to the great British rule of India.

Nothing more dangerous than a nation scorned.

Sunak and his wife saluting their King certainly brought some nostalgia and ceremony to the occasion. A more fitting tribute to the British Raj would be hard to imagine.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I don't speak for all Indians here* but as far as I know majority don't care about Kohinoor. It is just a piece of stone for us and has no symbolism at all with the idea of India. Queen Camilla can keep it with her as long as she wants.
#NoOneCaresAbtKohonoor





*or perhaps I do

Indian Twitter seems to think otherwise. Plus this topic comes up everytime there’s a British PM visiting India. So clearly people care enough to make a hoopla about it

 

[Technics 1210]

India to force Britain into colonial 'reckoning' with treasure demands

India will wage a diplomatic campaign to reclaim the Koh-i-Noor diamond and thousands of other treasures from Britain in a “reckoning” with the colonial past, the Telegraph can reveal.

Officials in New Delhi are preparing what would amount to the largest repatriation claim faced by the UK, on a scale that would dwarf Greece’s demands for the Elgin Marbles.

India’s ministerial and diplomatic staff will be mobilised to secure the return of potentially thousands of artefacts taken to Britain during the days of empire, in what one source described as a “reckoning with the past”.

It is understood that their goal is to secure the return of the Koh-i-Noor diamond, which is one of the Crown Jewels held in trust for the King.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/12/india-demand-colonial-treasures-koh-i-noor-britain/

India, along with Modi have zero chance of achieving this goal. It is not happening for love nor money. I wonder what UK's unelected PM, Sunak, will make all of this.

The article is quite lengthy, and should be posted in full if mods approve.

 

[Major]

its funny how Indians are claiming the treasure when they never paid what they owned Pakistan.

Trust hypocrites

 

[Rajdeep]

India will wage a diplomatic campaign to reclaim the Koh-i-Noor diamond and thousands of other treasures from Britain in a “reckoning” with the colonial past, the Telegraph can reveal.

Officials in New Delhi are preparing what would amount to the largest repatriation claim faced by the UK, on a scale that would dwarf Greece’s demands for the Elgin Marbles.

India’s ministerial and diplomatic staff will be mobilised to secure the return of potentially thousands of artefacts taken to Britain during the days of empire, in what one source described as a “reckoning with the past”.

It is understood that their goal is to secure the return of the Koh-i-Noor diamond, which is one of the Crown Jewels held in trust for the King.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/12/india-demand-colonial-treasures-koh-i-noor-britain/

India, along with Modi have zero chance of achieving this goal. It is not happening for love nor money. I wonder what UK's unelected PM, Sunak, will make all of this.

The article is quite lengthy, and should be posted in full if mods approve.

Sunak is a fan of Modi and almost consider him as his political idol, so he won't say anything. He will simply adhere to what Modi says.

Having said that, if this article is true its poor stuff from Indian govt. Not sure what is the point of Kohinoor diamond and what purpose it serves in modern India. As I said before, for most Indians Kohinoor is a piece of stone and they couldn't care less. I think its a political strategy by BJP and if they manage to get back Kohinoor from England, they can use it in election rallies next year with nationalistic pitch. 'Jo Congress na kar saka in 70 years...we did in 10' kind of narrative will be built.

There is no other purpose this piece of stone serves.