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Lessons from England's loss to Pakistan in ICC World Cup 2019

AamchiMumbaikar

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Chasing above 6 rpo in a wc is different from jamodi

Even centuries can't help you all the time when Target is above 300

Don't take things for granted and leak runs assuming pitch is good

Batting depth means zilch when you don't take wickets or restrict opposition.

Do not keep playing spinners who bowl flat on backdoor.

Staying focused when things go wrong in field, mis field's and over throws costed dearly.

Finally it just takes 1 ball to get anyone out so focus on specialist bowlers to too many all rounders.
 
Last but not least do not under estimate Pakistan in an ICC event. They are now one of the favs after yesterday victory.
 
There are no lessons for England to learn. It is a long tournament, and just because they are favorites, it doesn’t mean that they have to win every match.

It was just an off-day for England, and the fact that they came very close to winning in spite of 4-5 key players not performing shows that they are the best side in the world.
 
Last but not least do not under estimate Pakistan in an ICC event. They are now one of the favs after yesterday victory.

A team that has won only 1 World Cup since 1975, hasn’t made a World Cup final since 1999, has lost 12 out of 13 matches and 20 out of 25 since 2018 deserves to be underestimated.

England had an off-day. Not every day will Roy, Bairstow, Morgan, Stokes and Archer fail together. Had any of them performed, England would have won.
 
Like Mamoon said, teams will lose games along the way. England despite losing 4 wickets under 120, reached within 14 runs of Pakistan. They are a good batting side but their bowling is a concern, which hasn't changed. Pakistan bowled well to restrict by taking crucial wickets.
 
There are no lessons for England to learn. It is a long tournament, and just because they are favorites, it doesn’t mean that they have to win every match.

It was just an off-day for England, and the fact that they came very close to winning in spite of 4-5 key players not performing shows that they are the best side in the world.

I can’t wait :hasan
 
There are no lessons for England to learn. It is a long tournament, and just because they are favorites, it doesn’t mean that they have to win every match.

It was just an off-day for England, and the fact that they came very close to winning in spite of 4-5 key players not performing shows that they are the best side in the world.

You can say whatever you want. However, fact is England won meaningless ODI games against PAK, but come the crunch time they failed miserably not once but twice. There is a good chance they might not even make the semis now. I can see them losing against IND, AUS, or even NZ. Remember, these guys let IRE chase the highest runs in WC history lol.
 
Sarfraz needs to stop being a darpok and keep a slip as an option until the 40th over.
 
You can say whatever you want. However, fact is England won meaningless ODI games against PAK, but come the crunch time they failed miserably not once but twice. There is a good chance they might not even make the semis now. I can see them losing against IND, AUS, or even NZ. Remember, these guys let IRE chase the highest runs in WC history lol.

People are putting too much stock in the “England are chokers” notion and think that it is a foregone conclusion that they will stutter in the knockouts.

England have choked in the past, but those teams have no bearings on this current English team. Since their transformation in 2015, they have played two tournaments - they made the final and the semifinal.

In comparison, South Africa have not even been able to make the finals since 1998 in spite of having highly acclaimed sides.

This England team must have learned their lessons from the last two tournaments and unless they fall short again, calling them chokers in not justified.

It seems that they have to win every single match by 200 runs or 9 wickets to avoid getting called chokers.

The confirmation bias is so strong that in the South Africa match where they eventually thumped them, people started to play the choker card when England had an underwhelming spell of 4-5 overs.
 
I don't think England will change much on the basis of one result.

Had Morgan not removed the 3rd slip for Archer before he zings a lifter off Imam's outside edge moments later then the middle order & tail would have been exposed earlier & outcome may have been different.

Pakistan deserved the win but it was a close game & I don't think it necessarily showed a definitive way ti beat England or exposed the- other perhaps than the weight of expectation is higher & heavier in a WC & England feel that more than most.

On that I agree with the OP. Ponting's theory was always bat first in big WC games- runs on the board weigh heavy in a pressure game & anytime you can jag a wicket or bowl a maiden that scoreboard looks heavy again all of a sudden.
 
Sarfraz needs to stop being a darpok and keep a slip as an option until the 40th over.


I honestly thing you win that game by 50 runs is Sarfraz has the nerve to keep a slip. Not only was it the catches (& runs!) going through there but you energise the bowler & show belief in him by keeping the slip. Amir & Wahab are guys who thrive when they get that tail up.
 
I don't think England will change much on the basis of one result.

Had Morgan not removed the 3rd slip for Archer before he zings a lifter off Imam's outside edge moments later then the middle order & tail would have been exposed earlier & outcome may have been different.

Pakistan deserved the win but it was a close game & I don't think it necessarily showed a definitive way ti beat England or exposed the- other perhaps than the weight of expectation is higher & heavier in a WC & England feel that more than most.

On that I agree with the OP. Ponting's theory was always bat first in big WC games- runs on the board weigh heavy in a pressure game & anytime you can jag a wicket or bowl a maiden that scoreboard looks heavy again all of a sudden.

Had Babar take that Root catch it would be different

Buttler would have not score hundred if Sarfaraz call for a slip fielder before that 4
 
Had Babar take that Root catch it would be different

Buttler would have not score hundred if Sarfaraz call for a slip fielder before that 4

Yes. I am not saying Pakistan did not deserve to win- my point was that it was a close game with several moments from either side (as you point out) which could have turned the game.

It's not the kind of game England will walk away from thinking they have major lessons to learn or key changes to make. That is my point, relevant to the thread title.
 
Yes. I am not saying Pakistan did not deserve to win- my point was that it was a close game with several moments from either side (as you point out) which could have turned the game.

It's not the kind of game England will walk away from thinking they have major lessons to learn or key changes to make. That is my point, relevant to the thread title.

They do. How a useless hack like Moeen Ali play so many games for them is beyond me.
 
It’s important that England reflect on their loss today and look to tweak their approach in several areas. I don’t think this result exposes them nor is it particularly alarming - it was a close game and these things happen - but it needs to be utilised properly and learned from.

England’s now face Bangladesh, West Indies, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka (after this they have Australia, New Zealand and India) - so before those “big beast” fixtures roll around at the business end of the qualifying stage, they will ideally want to aim for maximum points from the next four fixtures to ensure that they have a cushion in place, in case they come unstuck later on.

The result yesterday was great for Pakistan and good for the tournament. England now need to turn it into a positive for themselves as well.
 
There are no lessons for England to learn. It is a long tournament, and just because they are favorites, it doesn’t mean that they have to win every match.

It was just an off-day for England, and the fact that they came very close to winning in spite of 4-5 key players not performing shows that they are the best side in the world.

Its always an off day when a team loses against Pakistan. :ua
 
I kind of agree with what [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] said. Eng were close to win the match despite they were 100 odd for 4 in 18 overs. This shows they are very strong batting side no doubt and any team who has to beat them will have to make sure they put up a big score and take early wickets.
 
Most of the OP is general for all teams .

For England specifically....

Be ready for the openers to play spin up front after Tahiti & Shadab did the damage .

Don’t try to copy the Windies , English bowlers are smaller and won’t make the short ball rise sharply , will end up with half trackers or wides.

Bat first against teams who quality spin unless it’s a greentop or rainy day .

England are far from the finished article everyone thought.
 
They do. How a useless hack like Moeen Ali play so many games for them is beyond me.

He was by far the best English bowler yesterday, with 3 key wickets and a superb economy rate of 5.
 
Jofra Archer is not the answer to their bowling troubles.

Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. He had one poor game.

Just a few days ago, Archer took three big wickets against South Africa, and also disrupted the run chase with his hostile short pitched fast bowling against the openers. England fans have rarely been treated to such a display of extreme pace and aggression.

This was one game ago. And the lad is a teenager. It is a big learning curve for him. Give him a chance!
 
Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. He had one poor game.

Just a few days ago, Archer took three big wickets against South Africa, and also disrupted the run chase with his hostile short pitched fast bowling against the openers. England fans have rarely been treated to such a display of extreme pace and aggression.

This was one game ago. And the lad is a teenager. It is a big learning curve for him. Give him a chance!

Not knee-jerk I’ve been saying it since before the WC, he’s way to inexperienced to do well at this stage against top teams. They way people have been reacting to him getting selected as if all is good with English bowling now makes it seem like he it’s Wasim Akram getting selected not Archer.
 
Not knee-jerk I’ve been saying it since before the WC, he’s way to inexperienced to do well at this stage against top teams. They way people have been reacting to him getting selected as if all is good with English bowling now makes it seem like he it’s Wasim Akram getting selected not Archer.

Did you watch his performance against South Africa? Or did you miss that one?
 
Like Mamoon said, teams will lose games along the way. England despite losing 4 wickets under 120, reached within 14 runs of Pakistan. They are a good batting side but their bowling is a concern, which hasn't changed. Pakistan bowled well to restrict by taking crucial wickets.

Butler is Viv-like, but such innings wont happen in each game. Pk played very well and no other side has a Butler. Pk can take huge confidence from this.
 
england is a top batting side but their bowling is just average , thats why i believe they wont win the world cup.
 
Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. He had one poor game.

Just a few days ago, Archer took three big wickets against South Africa, and also disrupted the run chase with his hostile short pitched fast bowling against the openers. England fans have rarely been treated to such a display of extreme pace and aggression.

This was one game ago. And the lad is a teenager. It is a big learning curve for him. Give him a chance!

Archer is not even English. He is West Indian.
 
Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. He had one poor game.

Just a few days ago, Archer took three big wickets against South Africa, and also disrupted the run chase with his hostile short pitched fast bowling against the openers. England fans have rarely been treated to such a display of extreme pace and aggression.

This was one game ago. And the lad is a teenager. It is a big learning curve for him. Give him a chance!

24 years old teenager? Thats afridi teenager.
 
Pakistan's bowling is above average. Batting is below average. Batsmen performed beyond expectation on a belter pitch.

England's batting is best in the world. Bowling is mediocre. Dropped catch & fielding lapses were big factors in England's defeat.

Pakistan need to win against Australia to prove yesterday's victory wasn't a one-off thing like Champions Trophy final.
 
Someone on this forum really should take a backseat and eat some crow. England is heavily dependent on root and buttler. Plus most of them still cant play spin properly. The way they fell apart in the field really showed the pressure got to them . And we are only in group matches with them already having won the opening game
 
There are no lessons for England to learn. It is a long tournament, and just because they are favorites, it doesn’t mean that they have to win every match.

It was just an off-day for England, and the fact that they came very close to winning in spite of 4-5 key players not performing shows that they are the best side in the world.

England lack the grit in tournaments. Australia are superior for sure and a few sides are netter big evemt teams, despite being inferior overall sides.

England's entire rebuild was for WC19. It will amount to zilch if they mess this WC up. If this side doesn't win it - being a fine team, in form, at home and on flat-ish decks, they may never win it.

Aus I suspect will bt them, India too. England will thus be 6-3 (maybe 5-4 if they slip once) and in the mire. In a KO, their nerves will do them in.
 
Moeen ali's batting form is a cause of worry for England right now. Had he struck 10 more runs for the 20 odd balls he faced, the result might've been different. Apart from him, I don't think England need to fret too much.

However, there's a lesson from this game which Pakistan can take, i.e their best bet this WC would be to try & look to bat first, score >320-330, and then look to defend it. That's how they defeated India during CT, & that's how they caused the downfall of mighty England this WC. This is the recipe for success for Pakistan imo.
 
Pakistan's bowling is above average. Batting is below average. Batsmen performed beyond expectation on a belter pitch.

England's batting is best in the world. Bowling is mediocre. Dropped catch & fielding lapses were big factors in England's defeat.

Pakistan need to win against Australia to prove yesterday's victory wasn't a one-off thing like Champions Trophy final.

This is nonsense. JAMODI be damned, when it mattered most, Pk bt England. Pakistan are average and inconsistent but very capable.

Clearly England, Australia and India are the top sides. Bangladesh, NZ, RSA, WI and Pakistan in the next set (in that order), then the rest.
 
This is nonsense. JAMODI be damned, when it mattered most, Pk bt England. Pakistan are average and inconsistent but very capable.

Clearly England, Australia and India are the top sides. Bangladesh, NZ, RSA, WI and Pakistan in the next set (in that order), then the rest.

england australia india

newzealand



south africa west indies bangladesh

pakistan srilanka


afghanistan
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The defeat to Pakistan yesterday was England's first loss at home when batting second since 5th September 2015 <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ENGvPAK?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ENGvPAK</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CWC19?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CWC19</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1135804069669474304?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 4, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
There are no lessons for England to learn. It is a long tournament, and just because they are favorites, it doesn’t mean that they have to win every match.

It was just an off-day for England, and the fact that they came very close to winning in spite of 4-5 key players not performing shows that they are the best side in the world.

If Eng had a bad day then so did Pakistan too. We dropped catches and our lower order couldn't properly click.

With Root amd Buttler both scoring centuries you would have to be absolutely biased to say England had a bad day. Reality is that team Pakistan gave the English a tough competition and at the end were the deserving winners. We fought hard for our win and it wasn't handed in a plate.
 
I mean I said it before, you can't leak 350 runs every game and expect to chase it down especially in WC games where you will be caught out. Their bowling is completely average barring Archer.
 
England bowling attack is pathetic. Not taking credit away from Pakistan but their bowling 'attack' is one of the worst in the tournament. They let Scotland score 380 something for crying out loud.
 
Congrats to PCT and their fans. It was a brilliant match and a much needed victory for Pakistan. I didn’t like the way some commentators were making fun of them on various occasions. They’re not a Zimbabwe or a Lanka.

There are obviously several lessons for England and all other teams to learn from yesterday’s match. England did the right thing winning the toss and sending Pakistan in to bat. I don’t think the result would have been different had they batted first because the problem was with their planning.

Lesson #1: Always play to your strengths, never according to the perceived weakness of the opponent. I remember saying in another thread that I don’t think other teams would succeed in exploiting this perceived weakness against the short ball in Pak batting. It was just a combination of fast, bouncy pitch and the West Indian style of bowling that led to Pakistan’s batting collapse that day. Yesterday’s wicket was very different and the English bowling attack just couldn’t hit the right line or length.

Lesson #2: Never be a one trick pony. It didn’t look like England had a plan against Pakistan other than bowling short. It didn’t work for them. The wicket was on the slower side and seemed to have uneven bounce. To add to that the English bowlers failed to hit the right length. They were targeting the body of the batsmen which is alright but the length was never short enough to trouble the Pakistani batsmen. To their credit the Pakistani batsmen didn’t miss out on any loose delivery they got. The new ball was wasted. After 10 overs England looked clueless. They just didn’t know what to do. There wasn’t a single bowler in that attack who looked like he was going to pick up a wicket. The English bowling attack is somewhat weak and was made weaker by their poor planning.

Lesson #3: Always be wary of teams that play with a “we have nothing to lose” attitude. This is a very important point and should always be considered when playing against Pakistan. They’re a good batting and bowling side and on the day things click for them, it’s going to be difficult to beat them unless you remain calm. Yesterday’s match reminded me of the CT final. England expected a deer in front of the headlights but it turned out to be an elephant! They expected Pakistan to play defensively but instead had to face an onslaught they never expected. Their batsmen were literally throwing their bat at everything and it worked for them. This is exactly how they played in the CT final. Pakistan had nothing to lose yesterday and they played like it. This is what makes them different from other teams.

Lesson #4: Your strength will become your weakness if you get overconfident. England has been a bit overconfident about their chasing abilities lately. Yesterday they were like, “they’re going to score 300 here, which should be an easy chase” but Pakistan ended up getting a fair bit more than that. Unlike bowling there’s no second chance in batting. No matter how good your batting may be, you should always try to restrict the flow of runs. They tried to pull it back a bit towards the end but it was too late. They should try and watch the recap of the match between Bangladesh and South Africa. Bangladesh literally strangled the SA batsmen and made them forfeit their wickets.
 
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England lack the grit in tournaments. Australia are superior for sure and a few sides are netter big evemt teams, despite being inferior overall sides.

England's entire rebuild was for WC19. It will amount to zilch if they mess this WC up. If this side doesn't win it - being a fine team, in form, at home and on flat-ish decks, they may never win it.

Aus I suspect will bt them, India too. England will thus be 6-3 (maybe 5-4 if they slip once) and in the mire. In a KO, their nerves will do them in.

England have historically lacked pedigree in tournaments, but the incompetence of the past English teams should not be used to downplay the credentials of this side.

Since their resurgence, they have only played two tournaments and must have learned thief lessons from the WT20 final and CT semifinal.
 
If Eng had a bad day then so did Pakistan too. We dropped catches and our lower order couldn't properly click.

With Root amd Buttler both scoring centuries you would have to be absolutely biased to say England had a bad day. Reality is that team Pakistan gave the English a tough competition and at the end were the deserving winners. We fought hard for our win and it wasn't handed in a plate.

Only two English batsmen performed so it was clearly a bad day for them. We did drop catches, but we have been a poor fielding unit since Rixon left, so it was pretty much expected.

We played to our potential with the bat. 350 is pretty much our upper limit.
 
Lesson#1 never underestimate the opposition

#2 English were overconfident

#3 Pakistan are not minnows those calling it an upset
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], have you seen Eoin's post match talk? He was saying 349 was on par, with that attitude he was not actually bothered with runs conceded by ENG! This way they will never improve their bowling... it's like 'whatever you score, we will score more, you can never outscore us' attitude
 
Only two English batsmen performed so it was clearly a bad day for them. We did drop catches, but we have been a poor fielding unit since Rixon left, so it was pretty much expected.

We played to our potential with the bat. 350 is pretty much our upper limit.

Those 2 scored centuries, one being a freak one in 70 odd balls, this is not going to happen every match either. Pak's catching was also shambolic so even Pak did not have a perfect day to say it was just ENG's day off.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], have you seen Eoin's post match talk? He was saying 349 was on par, with that attitude he was not actually bothered with runs conceded by ENG! This way they will never improve their bowling... it's like 'whatever you score, we will score more, you can never outscore us' attitude

England would obviously like to produce an above par performance with the ball, i.e. to restrict teams to 300-310. That is what they did against South Africa.

The key to England restrict teams to below par totals is Archer, and he had his worst game in an England shirt yesterday.
 
We could have got 380+ plus. I think bat first is our best option.

England are very good but mentally I'm still not sure they are capable.
 
England have historically lacked pedigree in tournaments, but the incompetence of the past English teams should not be used to downplay the credentials of this side.

Since their resurgence, they have only played two tournaments and must have learned thief lessons from the WT20 final and CT semifinal.

The lessons from those 2 games is that in the heat of the contest, in global events, England crack. I like England, they are my 2nd team and it is my home, but evidence abounds
 
People are putting too much stock in the “England are chokers” notion and think that it is a foregone conclusion that they will stutter in the knockouts.

England have choked in the past, but those teams have no bearings on this current English team. Since their transformation in 2015, they have played two tournaments - they made the final and the semifinal.

In comparison, South Africa have not even been able to make the finals since 1998 in spite of having highly acclaimed sides.

This England team must have learned their lessons from the last two tournaments and unless they fall short again, calling them chokers in not justified.

It seems that they have to win every single match by 200 runs or 9 wickets to avoid getting called chokers.

The confirmation bias is so strong that in the South Africa match where they eventually thumped them, people started to play the choker card when England had an underwhelming spell of 4-5 overs.

Funny how you say England have made it to semi final and final since 2015 and then go onto say S Africa haven't made it to finals since 1998? A bit misleading isn't it?
 
The lessons from those 2 games is that in the heat of the contest, in global events, England crack. I like England, they are my 2nd team and it is my home, but evidence abounds

Two tournaments are not really a good measure. The ATG Australia team failed in three consecutive Champions Trophies (2000, 2002, 2004) when they were at the peak of their powers. People don’t hold it against them or barely remember because they won three consecutive World Cup.

That is why, this generation of England should be judged based on how far they go in this World Cup. Writing them off because they didn’t win the WT20 2016 or the Champions Trophy 2017 is not right in my view.
 
Funny how you say England have made it to semi final and final since 2015 and then go onto say S Africa haven't made it to finals since 1998? A bit misleading isn't it?

Misleading how?

For the most part of 2000s and 2010s, South Africa have had a stellar team, and yet, they haven’t even been able to make a single final.

On the contrary, after England revamped their LOs cricket in 2015, they made it to the final of the very first tournament that they played (WT20 2016).

It is unfair to punish this English side for the sins of their predecessors. If they fall short of winning the World Cup, you can ask questions about their mentality, but not now.
 
You counted England's semi-final as being in the finals and yet denied S Africa of being in any finals since 98.
 
Should not have dropped Liam Plunkett, he has an even better SR in the middle overs than even Waqar Younis.

They lacked wicket-taking threat in the middle overs yesterday.
 
You counted England's semi-final as being in the finals and yet denied S Africa of being in any finals since 98.

I was talking about England making it to the final of the WT20 2016. South Africa have not made any finals since 1998 in spite of having excellent teams.
 
There are no lessons for England to learn. It is a long tournament, and just because they are favorites, it doesn’t mean that they have to win every match.

It was just an off-day for England, and the fact that they came very close to winning in spite of 4-5 key players not performing shows that they are the best side in the world.

England for all their ability is a deeply flawed unit. Regardless of the pitch, Pakistan is rarely known for posting mammoth totals like 340/350 plus. You just need one gun bowler not to allow that to happen regularly. once in a while fine. But Teams like West Indies, Scotland, Pakistan have all put up huge totals against them. Either it is poor captaincy or poor bowling. They just don't care about fielding mishaps, bad balls. You don't see Morgan yelling at his bowlers. Well for one thing he is an Irish guy. Morgan yelling at ARcher will be funny An Irish man yelling at West Indian man for not showing passion playing for England lol Aussies on the other hand even when they are down and out will have this over my dead body approach. I think England takes their fielding and bowling for granted. They have grown this bad habit because they are too cocky they can chase any total.
 
England for all their ability is a deeply flawed unit. Regardless of the pitch, Pakistan is rarely known for posting mammoth totals like 340/350 plus. You just need one gun bowler not to allow that to happen regularly. once in a while fine. But Teams like West Indies, Scotland, Pakistan have all put up huge totals against them. Either it is poor captaincy or poor bowling. They just don't care about fielding mishaps, bad balls. You don't see Morgan yelling at his bowlers. Well for one thing he is an Irish guy. Morgan yelling at ARcher will be funny An Irish man yelling at West Indian man for not showing passion playing for England lol Aussies on the other hand even when they are down and out will have this over my dead body approach. I think England takes their fielding and bowling for granted. They have grown this bad habit because they are too cocky they can chase any total.

England’s bowling is not as bad as people claim. Last summer, they won 7 out of 8 matches against India and Australia and restricted them to low totals on flat decks. They also bowled well against South Africa in the opening game.

Their bowling in general has been underwhelming this summer so far because Rashid has been off-color. He is their main wicket-taker in the middle overs but he has been largely innocuous.

England have accepted the fact that batting is their strength, and the fact that they game within touching distance of chasing 350 when Roy, Bairstow, Morgan and Stokes failed shows their incredible prowess.
 
England’s bowling is not as bad as people claim. Last summer, they won 7 out of 8 matches against India and Australia and restricted them to low totals on flat decks. They also bowled well against South Africa in the opening game.

Their bowling in general has been underwhelming this summer so far because Rashid has been off-color. He is their main wicket-taker in the middle overs but he has been largely innocuous.

England have accepted the fact that batting is their strength, and the fact that they game within touching distance of chasing 350 when Roy, Bairstow, Morgan and Stokes failed shows their incredible prowess.

Any decent fielding unit would have reduced England to a much lesser total. Losing wickets to Hafeez, Malik under pressure don't exactly say much about them. Already they have shown their weakness against spin upfront by losing 2 wickets to leggies in 2 matches. This team is essentailly Butler dependent. Take him out they are not going to be confident of posting 350 every time. Honestly tell me when was the last time Pakistan has scored so many big scores against one team? I am not sure you would back Pakistan to score 350 against Afghanistan this many times on the same pitches. You just need one good bowler to prevent that from happening. I don't say it is utterly impossible. But doing it over and over against means there is something wrong with the bowling. Even now they don't admit it. Hussain just blames the fielding not the bowling.
 
There are no lessons for England to learn. It is a long tournament, and just because they are favorites, it doesn’t mean that they have to win every match.

It was just an off-day for England, and the fact that they came very close to winning in spite of 4-5 key players not performing shows that they are the best side in the world.

That’s exactly what a stubborn spoilt brat would say. In any defeat or failure, you can glean a lot of lessons. Heck even in victory.

Here is what England did wrong:

1. Fielded bad.. maybe an off day but they can certainly take that lesson forward. Field better

2. Don’t under estimate anyone.. And never Pakistan. From Morgan’s face, to team selection, to decision to bowl first, you could tell they had already made up their mind they were winners before they even stepped on the field

3. Don’t experiment thinking it’s an easy game. Plunkett the regular mid overs bowler was dropped.. and England struggled in the mid overs.

4. If a trick worked for one team on a particular day, don’t think it will keep on working for you as well. Pakistanis did their homework on the short ball. England thought they could just roll them over but it didn’t happen.

5. Last but not least.. scoreboard pressure of a World Cup game is entirely different from a regular game.
 
That’s exactly what a stubborn spoilt brat would say. In any defeat or failure, you can glean a lot of lessons. Heck even in victory.

Here is what England did wrong:

1. Fielded bad.. maybe an off day but they can certainly take that lesson forward. Field better

2. Don’t under estimate anyone.. And never Pakistan. From Morgan’s face, to team selection, to decision to bowl first, you could tell they had already made up their mind they were winners before they even stepped on the field

3. Don’t experiment thinking it’s an easy game. Plunkett the regular mid overs bowler was dropped.. and England struggled in the mid overs.

4. If a trick worked for one team on a particular day, don’t think it will keep on working for you as well. Pakistanis did their homework on the short ball. England thought they could just roll them over but it didn’t happen.

5. Last but not least.. scoreboard pressure of a World Cup game is entirely different from a regular game.

I still won't say fielding was horrible. Woakes pulled off a few catches that many Asian teams woul have made a meal of it. At best an average fielding effort. Pakistan also shelled a catch. They all even out in the end. Their bowling has no plan, no skill, no smartness. Not enough analysis against each batsman from the opposition. They hit the same length for all. You bowl yorkers in your last over not half vollies, half trackers in the name of bouncers. They conceded 8 runs in the process to Shadab. They basically don't think they need to bowl well to win a match.
 
This is a long tournament. We can't make too much out of this win. I am just relieved the 12 ODI losing streak is over. More importantly how will Pakistan deal with India, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka going forward?

This WC is not about flukes, its about momentum and peaking at the right time.
 
Regardless with what [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] says about england, fact is whenever the pressure has been on they have wilted like a deck of cards.

England is clearly a soft team. They complain whenever things dont go their way.

Their players succumb to the slightest pressure. As we've seen before in the wt20 and CT. And again we will this WC.

If the pitches dont supprt their style of play they dont have the mental strength to adapt.

I do think they will make it to the semis, but they will not make the finals.
 
Jofra Archer is not the answer to their bowling troubles.

The last thing England have is bowling trouble, Willey was dropped from the squad and would probably walk into any of the other teams, not to mention the curran brothers and plunkett, they will be fine
 
A team that has won only 1 World Cup since 1975, hasn’t made a World Cup final since 1999, has lost 12 out of 13 matches and 20 out of 25 since 2018 deserves to be underestimated.

England had an off-day. Not every day will Roy, Bairstow, Morgan, Stokes and Archer fail together. Had any of them performed, England would have won.

So England with 0 semi finals since 1992 and 0 World Cups doesn’t deserve to be underestimated but reigning Champions Trophy winners do. Great logic
 
Regardless with what [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] says about england, fact is whenever the pressure has been on they have wilted like a deck of cards.

England is clearly a soft team. They complain whenever things dont go their way.

Their players succumb to the slightest pressure. As we've seen before in the wt20 and CT. And again we will this WC.

If the pitches dont supprt their style of play they dont have the mental strength to adapt.

I do think they will make it to the semis, but they will not make the finals.

Exactly the reason why they haven't won a 50 over World cup. Pakistan may be criticized for winning 1 tournament in however long, but England are being hyped even though they have not won anything??
 
This is a long tournament. We can't make too much out of this win. I am just relieved the 12 ODI losing streak is over. More importantly how will Pakistan deal with India, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka going forward?

This WC is not about flukes, its about momentum and peaking at the right time.

Beating England after scoring their 4th 300+ score in 5 ODIs is a fluke? Can you explain that to me?

As for England, of course there are lessons to learn. The openers and in fact, almost the entire line up, has to be better against spin. They also have to learn how to play shots on a pitch which is not a complete road (the pitch yesterday may have been high scoring but there was variable bounce and the ball stuck just enough for the cutters to work) and that the lower order can not just go out there and smash it from ball one.

Then there are the selection dilemmas which were being papered over because the batting looked so impregnable for so long but will now need to be addressed. Does Ali warrant a place in the side on his bowling alone because his batting in recent times has been terrible? What about Archer, Wood and Plunkett? Who plays and who gets dropped? What happens if other sides take apart Rashid? Are bowlers averaging 35 and upwards reliable if the batting side does not hit a monster score?

There is a long way to go and if England want the trophy, these questions will need to be answered and lessons learned.
 
Selfish hundreds from root and butler didn’t help the team to win
It’s a team game and the team didn’t field as a collective either

Players like rasheed, Bairstow and root need to play for the team and not for their own selves
 
A fluke win and now all of a sudden alot of threads
England are overconfident, We are back, we are tigers, we are big match team, lessons for England blah blah blah
What is this?
England are hot favorite and they doesn't need any lesson from this fluke victory.
 
So England with 0 semi finals since 1992 and 0 World Cups doesn’t deserve to be underestimated but reigning Champions Trophy winners do. Great logic

England are the number 1 ranked team and have won an ODI series against every opposition in the last 4 years. If Pakistan go into a World Cup with a track-record like that, no one will underestimate them and they will be rightly regarded as favourites.
 
Regardless with what [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] says about england, fact is whenever the pressure has been on they have wilted like a deck of cards.

England is clearly a soft team. They complain whenever things dont go their way.

Their players succumb to the slightest pressure. As we've seen before in the wt20 and CT. And again we will this WC.

If the pitches dont supprt their style of play they dont have the mental strength to adapt.

I do think they will make it to the semis, but they will not make the finals.

Exactly the reason why they haven't won a 50 over World cup. Pakistan may be criticized for winning 1 tournament in however long, but England are being hyped even though they have not won anything??

England have never won a 50 over World Cup because they haven't been good enough. This is the first time ever that they have gone into a World Cup as favourites, and if they fall short, people will be justified in criticising them but it is too early now.

Since revamping their Limited Overs cricket, they have played two tournaments - they made a final and a semifinal. Even the legendary Australian team failed in three consecutive Champions Trophies, but no one remembers now because they won World Cups. We should wait and see how England ends this World Cup before calling them a soft team full of chokers.
 
Not to take any team lightly and take every match seriously, ENG were over confident thats what cost them the match.
 
Time will tell if there’s anything to change for England.
But I think Morgan was typically astute when he pointed out that bowlers or batsmen can have an off day or be challenged by a better team on the day, but the fielding shouldn’t suffer, because that’s a defensive skill.
Having said that given England are such a red hot team there will be endless amounts of print and opposition camp analysis dedicated to whether there was an issue of nerves.
It’s the nature of sport, whenever David beats Goliath to consider if stage fright was at play.
On thing that is indisputable is that Faf has exposed something that every team will look to exploit.
 
That’s exactly what a stubborn spoilt brat would say. In any defeat or failure, you can glean a lot of lessons. Heck even in victory.

Here is what England did wrong:

1. Fielded bad.. maybe an off day but they can certainly take that lesson forward. Field better

2. Don’t under estimate anyone.. And never Pakistan. From Morgan’s face, to team selection, to decision to bowl first, you could tell they had already made up their mind they were winners before they even stepped on the field

3. Don’t experiment thinking it’s an easy game. Plunkett the regular mid overs bowler was dropped.. and England struggled in the mid overs.

4. If a trick worked for one team on a particular day, don’t think it will keep on working for you as well. Pakistanis did their homework on the short ball. England thought they could just roll them over but it didn’t happen.

5. Last but not least.. scoreboard pressure of a World Cup game is entirely different from a regular game.

If you forcefully want to create lessons for England and explain what went wrong, why stop at 5? you can come up with a dozen. However, the points that you are raised are heavily based on assumptions except the first one.

1. England fielded poorly:

Yes they did, but their fielding has largely been excellent in recent years. In fact, they took a couple of stunners against Pakistan as well, but Roy dropped a sitter because for some reason he decided to field without his sunglasses with the sun in his eyes.

2. England underestimated Pakistan:

There is no reason to believe that England underestimated Pakistan. Unless you are an expert in interpreting facial expressions, Morgan's presser didn't imply that England were taking this game lightly. In fact, he explicitly stated that they were preparing for Pakistan's best.

In fact, England have been one team that has hyped Pakistan up leading into the World Cup because of the Champions Trophy.

As far as the decision to bowl first was concerned, it was influenced by England's brilliant chasing record at home. It is not about overconfidence, it is about sticking to their strengths.

Had England batted first and lost, people would have used hindsight to criticise England for being overconfident and not sticking to what was working with them. A classic example of damned if you, damned if you don't.

3. Don’t experiment thinking it’s an easy game:

Picking Woods over Plunkett was a mistake, but again, we are speaking in hindsight. Plunkett played 3 games against Pakistan in the recently concluded series and he was ineffective. Mark Wood is quicker and gets extra lift from the pitch. Anyone captain would have probably opted for him over Plunkett after seeing how uncomfortable Pakistani batsmen were against WI's short-pitched bowling.

4. If a trick worked for one team on a particular day, don’t think it will keep on working for you as well.

Again, the convenience of hindsight. If a trick works against a particular team and you don't try to implement that trick and fail, people will criticise you for not learning. Had England not tried the short-ball tactic and lost the game, you would most likely criticise Morgan for not taking a leaf out of WI's book.

Besides, one match has not made our batsmen Pontings and Viv Richards against short-pitched bowling. We are still very weak and teams will still try to exploit our weakness.

5. Last but not least.. scoreboard pressure of a World Cup game is entirely different from a regular game.

Pressure is ultimately self-created. England's best chance of winning the World Cup is to stick to what has worked for them for four years. If you have a bad day, you have a bad day and there is nothing you can do about it.

They lost the semifinal of the Champions Trophy batting first, and they don't need to fall into the trap of doing things differently because it is a World Cup. They have to stick to what they are doing, because it works.

If England try to do things differently and change their strategy because it is a World Cup, they will put themselves under enormous pressure, but if they stick to their tactics, they will be able to play with a clear head. The last four World Cups have been won by teams that were touted as the pre-tournament favourites, and they were able to do it because they stuck to what worked for them instead of trying different strategies because it's the World Cup.

Finally, along with trying to do different things because of self-inflicted pressure, the worst thing England can do right now is panic, which leads back to trying different things when they shouldn't.

In the 2011 World Cup, in spite of being the favourites and playing at home, India lost to South Africa and tied with England in its first few games, but they didn't panic and they stuck to their guns, eventually succeeding.

England need to do the same, because it gives them their best possible chance of winning the World Cup.
 
A fluke win and now all of a sudden alot of threads
England are overconfident, We are back, we are tigers, we are big match team, lessons for England blah blah blah
What is this?
England are hot favorite and they doesn't need any lesson from this fluke victory.

This country thrives on sensationalism. Everything is a drama and a part of a story for us.
 
"England lost because they were overconfident"

"You can never underestimate Pakistan"

etc. etc.

This is exactly the type of arrogance that has not helped Pakistan cricket in the past and will not help Pakistan cricket in the future. No team can lose against Pakistan because well, they played poorly.

It is either because of the we are unpredictable and cornered tigers rubbish, or because the other team underestimated us.

England lost because five key players underperformed, and they have to make sure that they don't collectively underperform again in the same match. It is has nothing to do with Pakistan.
 
England would obviously like to produce an above par performance with the ball, i.e. to restrict teams to 300-310. That is what they did against South Africa.

The key to England restrict teams to below par totals is Archer, and he had his worst game in an England shirt yesterday.

I have to say I was amused to find a few posters calling him overrated and thought he got exposed after one bad performance.
 
Lets not get ahead of our selves, wait and see what happens in the next few matches.

This is really annoying, all it takes is one match for people to start overreacting at everything.
 
i think this hype about flat wickets is wrong, pakistan need to be careful and not hope that they need to make 300+ all the time, today the 227 runs against India may have been enough had they another seamer playing.

Interesting world cup so far, shame fridays game will be washout.
 
"England lost because they were overconfident"

"You can never underestimate Pakistan"

etc. etc.

This is exactly the type of arrogance that has not helped Pakistan cricket in the past and will not help Pakistan cricket in the future. No team can lose against Pakistan because well, they played poorly.

It is either because of the we are unpredictable and cornered tigers rubbish, or because the other team underestimated us.

England lost because five key players underperformed, and they have to make sure that they don't collectively underperform again in the same match. It is has nothing to do with Pakistan.
Isnt that obvious that when 5/6 players of one underperform that they loose?

You forgot the fact that they had 2 centurians.

Credit needs to be given when due and Pakistan played well to win the match.

It does not make Pakistan a better team than England but in sport you enjoy even your weaker team wins against a stronger team. Otherwise there is no point in following your team if it is not favourite.
 
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