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Major DNA ancestry database now correctly lists Pakistanis as Central Asian

Cypher

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In line with scientific research findings, people of Pakistan origin are now listed as Central Asian in one of the largest and most reputed commercially available ancestry DNA testing databases.

AncestryDNA now lists all ethnic Pakistanis in the Central Asia - South category, as this is now the accepted norm in scientific research papers. Following the same norms, Afghanistan and Tajikistan are also included in the same category. I had earlier also reportedthe scientific research findings and papersconcerning Pakistan, but seeing it now included in a major commercial ancestry genetic test is quite interesting.

The personal DNA testing company adds the following specific details for the region:Between the foothills of the Himalayas and the Arabian Sea lies our Central Asia—South region, which includes much of Afghanistan and Pakistan. An important crossroads for ancient civilizations, the Silk Road’s Khyber Pass is located on the Afghan-Pakistani border. The region’s modern-day culture was shaped by the Arabic-Persian civilizations who arrived approximately 1,000 years ago, beginning its rich literary heritage. Today, it is an ethnically and linguistically diverse region that includes Punjabi, Pashtun, Tajik, and other peoples. However, many of its inhabitants share the practice of Islam, strong kinship ties, and a strong sense of familial honor.Screenshot_20191025-203351_Samsung Internet.jpgScreenshot_20191025-203134_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
Congratulations.

The more Pakistanis mix with Afghans and other central asian, middle east ethnic people, the farther they get away from Indian DNA.

To me,
Pakistanis = Predominantly Central Asians + some hunter/gatherer(Australoid) blood from India.
Indians = Predominantly Hunter/Gatherer (Australoid, Negrito) + some Central Asian blood.

However, I do think there are a ton of Indian looking people in both Sindh and Punjab regions of Pakistan. Saw a lot of videos of common Pakistanis on streets and many look complete Indian. Its only a matter of time before they also start looking like central asians. :wasim
 
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What does indian DNA even mean???
India wasn't even a thing before the British came. It was just a culmination of different kingdoms
 
We should be proud of our Indian origins and not ashamed of it. Other than 14% Pashtuns (in Pak) and 3-4% Balochis, the rest are all of “Indian” origin. If we ourselves are ashamed of our own identity, how can we expect others to treat us well?

These are the factual figures.

Indians (esp. North indians) are our blood brothers (Fully or partially).
 
We should be proud of our Indian origins and not ashamed of it. Other than 14% Pashtuns (in Pak) and 3-4% Balochis, the rest are all of “Indian” origin. If we ourselves are ashamed of our own identity, how can we expect others to treat us well?

These are the factual figures.

Indians (esp. North indians) are our blood brothers (Fully or partially).

Come on mate
It's not my opinion

It's a fact that we're not the same
 
We should be proud of our Indian origins and not ashamed of it. Other than 14% Pashtuns (in Pak) and 3-4% Balochis, the rest are all of “Indian” origin. If we ourselves are ashamed of our own identity, how can we expect others to treat us well?

These are the factual figures.

Indians (esp. North indians) are our blood brothers (Fully or partially).

As seen from the diagram above, even some Indian punjabis can be considered "central asians". India wasn't even a country before the British came
There's no such thing as us being of "indian" origin
 
If you ve ever seen Iranians, Tajiks and Azerbaijanis closely, you would know that many of us dont look like them. Plus They have a different culture, food and language.

As for OP’s article above, it does not cite any scientific data or details of the research. Also there is no source for it anywhere.
 
If you ve ever seen Iranians, Tajiks and Azerbaijanis closely, you would know that many of us dont look like them. Plus They have a different culture, food and language.

As for OP’s article above, it does not cite any scientific data or details of the research. Also there is no source for it anywhere.

There are many brown central asians as well you know
 
It makes sense because I have light brown skin and dark brown hair. My brother is even lighter than me.
 
pakistanis are fairly mixed race, so many people have come via pakistan to conquer india they all left a genetic imprint. pakistanis are not indian, even indians arent "indian", theres way too much variety in india.

pakistanis are generally a mixture of central asian, iranic, and northern indian people in varying degrees.

punjabis and kashmiris on both side of the border look fairly similar.

eventually when western dna agencies have enough data on pakistanis to analyse they will break it down into further sub groups.

when i did 23andme it said likely punjab (pak/ind) somewhat likely gujrati (india).

either way, we are a mixture of genetics dictated by our history, and we should be proud of all elements of it, whether central asian, persian or indian.
 
Iranians themselves are mixture of caucasians and Mongoloid. Tajiks, Kazaks, Uzbeks and Azerbaijanis have even more genetic influence of Mongoloids. Whereas in Northern subcontinent’s population its to much lesser extent.

As for skin colour its not necessarily/fully indicative of genetics. There is much more to it.
 
Congratulations.

The more Pakistanis mix with Afghans and other central asian, middle east ethnic people, the farther they get away from Indian DNA.

To me,
Pakistanis = Predominantly Central Asians + some hunter/gatherer(Australoid) blood from India.
Indians = Predominantly Hunter/Gatherer (Australoid, Negrito) + some Central Asian blood.

This "blood" distribution may be to you the above, however the modern scientific research in population genetics and haplogroup frequencies show that the two major Indian ancestries from the Y-chromosome are Indo-European (Y-haplogroup R) and Dravidian (Y-haplogroup H).

By "Negrito" I assume you mean Black African, and their predominant haplogroups Y-haplogroups B and E are entirely absent from India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Sub-Saharan_Africa

Nor are significant Central Asian Y-haplogroups C, N and Q present in India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Central_and_North_Asia

Other than Indo-European and Dravidian, East India also has significant "Chinese" Y-haplogroup O.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175

Study population genetics if you are interested in learning about the real world instead of some archaic stereotypes.

However, I do think there are a ton of Indian looking people in both Sindh and Punjab regions of Pakistan. Saw a lot of videos of common Pakistanis on streets and many look complete Indian. Its only a matter of time before they also start looking like central asians. :wasim

I would say that most of the Pakistani cricket team (at any given point 9 or more out of the 11) have looked quite Indian to me.
 
What does indian DNA even mean???
India wasn't even a thing before the British came. It was just a culmination of different kingdoms

The same can be said of any country. South Asians, due to geographical boundaries (Himalayas and the ocean) share more common ancestry with each other than with others.

The most typical "Indian DNA" are the two major ancestries Indo-European and Dravidian traced by population frequencies of the Y-chromosome haplogroups. The mtDNA haplogroups on the other hand show that while males were mobile, females were more static. Hence the male Y-chromosome haplogroup R (or R1) stretches from Europe (and in the last 500 years the US) to Eastern Indian, but the mtDNA haplogroups are more geographically confined.

Indo-European languages dominate in areas where Y-chromosome haplogroups R1a and R1b are frequent, so it doesn't take much analysis to understand the link.

The highest frequencies of R1a are found in West Bengal Brahmins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a

The highest frequencies of R1b are found in the Western edge of Europe (Irish, British, Spanish and French).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b
 
Apart from Indo-Iranians such as Pashtuns and Baloch, almost every Pakistani is of predominantly South Asian ancestry.

My brother took a DNA test on 23andme 3 months back and got around 80% Northern Indian and Pakistan and only 4% Central Asian. (We’re Punjabi Rajputs from Jhelum).

This seems odd tbf.
 
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Apart from Indo-Aryans such as Pashtuns and Baloch, almost every Pakistani is of predominantly South Asian ancestry.

My brother took a DNA test on 23andme 3 months back and got around 80% Northern Indian and Pakistan and only 4% Central Asian. (We’re Punjabi Rajputs from Jhelum).

This seems odd tbf.

Doesn't seem odd to me in the least. DNA is science, and you either believe science or you don't. Science says most South Asians have shared ancestry, which implies that Muslim South Asians are mainly descendants of Hindus. Not sure if many Pakistanis think themselves to be descendants of the Muslim conquerors (Arabs, Mongols and Iranians), if they do they are mistaken.

You can see the DNA Y-chromosome haplogroup distributions of South Asian communities in the article below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

Interestingly, Chamars (a formerly "untouchable" caste) have 38.9% R1a ancestry, while Chaturvedis (Brahmins versed in all 4 Vedas) have only 23.9%.

R1a is the Aryan haplogroup, found in ancient populations which used the word Arya, that is the Greeks, Indians and Iranians. So Chamars have significantly more Aryan ancestry than Chaturvedis!

Science does force us to re-evaluate many of our stereotypes.
 
We should be proud of our Indian origins and not ashamed of it. Other than 14% Pashtuns (in Pak) and 3-4% Balochis, the rest are all of “Indian” origin. If we ourselves are ashamed of our own identity, how can we expect others to treat us well?

These are the factual figures.

Indians (esp. North indians) are our blood brothers (Fully or partially).

You're not Pakistani bud lol
 
Congratulations.

The more Pakistanis mix with Afghans and other central asian, middle east ethnic people, the farther they get away from Indian DNA.

To me,
Pakistanis = Predominantly Central Asians + some hunter/gatherer(Australoid) blood from India.
Indians = Predominantly Hunter/Gatherer (Australoid, Negrito) + some Central Asian blood.

However, I do think there are a ton of Indian looking people in both Sindh and Punjab regions of Pakistan. Saw a lot of videos of common Pakistanis on streets and many look complete Indian. Its only a matter of time before they also start looking like central asians. :wasim

What's the typical indian look though? Every indian i meet tells me there's no one indian look and there's a night and day difference between north and south indians lol.
 
Apart from Indo-Iranians such as Pashtuns and Baloch, almost every Pakistani is of predominantly South Asian ancestry.

My brother took a DNA test on 23andme 3 months back and got around 80% Northern Indian and Pakistan and only 4% Central Asian. (We’re Punjabi Rajputs from Jhelum).

This seems odd tbf.

I don't think you understand what the OP saying, your brother was put under "Pakistani/North indian" but that category has changed from south asian to central asian, regional naming category are actually very arbitrary, DNA companies change them quite often so you shouldn't take it literally.
 
I have always felt the link with Indians is overrated. We were only together with them during the Mughal and British era. Big blow to Zaid Hamid who is desperate to have Arab blood in him:ssmith
 
I feel like Pakistan is a region of it's own. We certainly aren't Indian, nor are we Central Asian or Iranian, we're at the meeting point of all three of these regions, and have our own unique cultures and identity.
 
I did one of these DNA tests once and my ancestry came in as mostly North Indian, Punjab and Central Asian. Weirdly enough there was small part of British also in there, so a few hundred years ago one of my ancestors must have been getting too comfortable with the Brits. :sarf2
 
This comes as welcome relief. I’ll sleep easier tonight. No, I’m not being sarcastic.

Notice also how all of GB, AJK, Occupied J&K and the populated parts of Occupied Kargil are included in this Central Asian designation.
 
I did one of these DNA tests once and my ancestry came in as mostly North Indian, Punjab and Central Asian. Weirdly enough there was small part of British also in there, so a few hundred years ago one of my ancestors must have been getting too comfortable with the Brits. :sarf2

Nope, they just randomly name certain components after some ethnic groups but that doesn't indicate ancestry, same reason why a lot of people score "Baloch" on their ancestry tests but that doesn't mean they have a single drop of Baloch blood in them just that they may have a shared ancestors tens of thousands of years back before the metamorphosis of these ethnic groups. Also if anything is less than 5% then it's considered "statistical noise" on these tests and can be disregarded.
 
Eh? What about the Mauryan Empire?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire

Or the Gupta Empire?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta_Empire

Or the Kushan Empire?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire

Don't they teach you your country's history in schools?

During these Hindu empires Muslims were few and far between. Our history is much more impartial then that of India and it's silly fantasies. These Hindu empires ruled mostly what is India today and were often under the Mughals too. What empire did Akbar's Jodhaa belong too?
 
During these Hindu empires Muslims were few and far between. Our history is much more impartial then that of India and it's silly fantasies. These Hindu empires ruled mostly what is India today and were often under the Mughals too. What empire did Akbar's Jodhaa belong too?

Your post doesn't make much sense, all the Indian empires I mentioned preceded Islam.

I will note that current day South Asian Muslims are mostly descendants of the Hindus who lived in these empires according to the DNA evidence that we now have. If you want to know what science says, read up about the Y-chromosome and mtDNA haplogroup frequencies of different South Asian communities.

No more replies!
 
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Your post doesn't make much sense, all the Indian empires I mentioned preceded Islam.

I will note that current day South Asian Muslims are mostly descendants of the Hindus who lived in these empires according to the DNA evidence that we now have. If you want to know what science says, read up about the Y-chromosome and mtDNA haplogroup frequencies of different South Asian communities.

No more replies!

My post makes perfect sense. Your view is a typical Indian one that all brown people of the subcontinent are one and Indian Hindu's too begin with! Well of course as Islam came much after Hinduism our forefathers could have been Hindu's or Buddhists, big deal. Indian Hindu's just can't get over that they willingly left Hinduism. What is this rubbish you people go on about Hindu blood and things like that as if during a transfusion these things matter? Why don't you reconvert the 200 million Indian Muslims first and foremost or accept Islam?. The word "Hindu" is nowhere to be seen in your good books by the way. You have obviously not heard of the "six degree of separation theory".
 
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During these Hindu empires Muslims were few and far between. Our history is much more impartial then that of India and it's silly fantasies. These Hindu empires ruled mostly what is India today and were often under the Mughals too. What empire did Akbar's Jodhaa belong too?

What fantasies? Lol. :msd

And where did you read that Guptas and Mauryas were under the Mughals?

I'd love to read that book. :yk
 
My post makes perfect sense. Your view is a typical Indian one that all brown people of the subcontinent are one and Indian Hindu's too begin with! Well of course as Islam came much after Hinduism our forefathers could have been Hindu's or Buddhists, big deal. Indian Hindu's just can't get over that they willingly left Hinduism. What is this rubbish you people go on about Hindu blood and things like that as if during a transfusion these things matter? Why don't you reconvert the 200 million Indian Muslims first and foremost or accept Islam?. The word "Hindu" is nowhere to be seen in your good books by the way. You have obviously not heard of the "six degree of separation theory".

You're getting worked up for no reason buddy.

He just said that most south Asian Muslims are of Hindu ancestry and it's even backed up by DNA testings. Nothing derogatory in that. Or is that your insecurities speaking ?
 
Your post doesn't make much sense, all the Indian empires I mentioned preceded Islam.

I will note that current day South Asian Muslims are mostly descendants of the Hindus who lived in these empires according to the DNA evidence that we now have. If you want to know what science says, read up about the Y-chromosome and mtDNA haplogroup frequencies of different South Asian communities.


It's such a stupid thing to say that all South Asian Muslims used to be Hindu.... That is straight out of Mera Bharat mahaan textbook of indoctrination.

Heck every single Muslim today has forefathers who practiced some other religion. Majority of those who comprised the first Muslims used to be pagan worshippers. The greatest general in Islamic history used to be staunch anti-Islam pagan and even defeated Muslims in battle before accepting Islam.


So it is stupid to say all South Asian Muslims used to be Hindus. Same way all Arab Muslims used to worship fire or stone idols.



But who am I talking to, a Modi lover with Mera Bharat mahaan delusions.


No replies till I see something intelligent.
 
It's such a stupid thing to say that all South Asian Muslims used to be Hindu.... That is straight out of Mera Bharat mahaan textbook of indoctrination.

Heck every single Muslim today has forefathers who practiced some other religion. Majority of those who comprised the first Muslims used to be pagan worshippers. The greatest general in Islamic history used to be staunch anti-Islam pagan and even defeated Muslims in battle before accepting Islam.


So it is stupid to say all South Asian Muslims used to be Hindus. Same way all Arab Muslims used to worship fire or stone idols.



But who am I talking to, a Modi lover with Mera Bharat mahaan delusions.


No replies till I see something intelligent.

He said "mostly" not "all".

And yes , it's true that all the Muslims have ancestry from some other religion. Heck every religious person in the world (Christian, jew , Hindu , Sikh, Buddhist) had forefathers who used to follow some other ancient religion. There shouldn't be any shame in accepting that. I'm a Hindu and I have no shame in accepting the fact that my ancestors were some nature worshippers of ancient India.

Therefore, Pakistanis (well most of them) shouldn't have any reservations in accepting the fact that there most recent non-Muslim ancestors were Hindus (some even Sikhs and Buddhist).
 
During these Hindu empires Muslims were few and far between. Our history is much more impartial then that of India and it's silly fantasies. These Hindu empires ruled mostly what is India today and were often under the Mughals too. What empire did Akbar's Jodhaa belong too?

Hain?? OMG... Can't believe the ignorance. Seriously.....
 
What fantasies? Lol. :msd

And where did you read that Guptas and Mauryas were under the Mughals?

I'd love to read that book. :yk

Often have heard the RSS say it! This is why they hate the Muslims so much:rp
 
You're getting worked up for no reason buddy.

He just said that most south Asian Muslims are of Hindu ancestry and it's even backed up by DNA testings. Nothing derogatory in that. Or is that your insecurities speaking ?

Did my reply upset you? Do you not know that there have been Buddhists in the subcontinent as well. Perhaps my ancestors were that or even atheists. I am trying to educate Indian people coz you need it badly from an intelligent man like me.
 
Just like you have Akhand Bharat comic books in India:imam Now you are even changing names of Muslim sounding cities.

We never read akhand bharat in our history books. You would be surprised we have read more about all empires irrespective of religion.
 
Did my reply upset you? Do you not know that there have been Buddhists in the subcontinent as well. Perhaps my ancestors were that or even atheists. I am trying to educate Indian people coz you need it badly from an intelligent man like me.

That's ok. Budhism , hinduism, sikhism etc are all bharat religions , dharmic religions. Even if your ancestors followed budhism still you won't be arab or turk. You and your coming generations would always be bhartiya, hindustani.
You should never be ashamed of your roots.
 
Often have heard the RSS say it! This is why they hate the Muslims so much:rp

Lol. RSS never said that Mauryas and Guptas were under the Mughal rule. You're just making up things now.

Mauryas and Guptas ruled the subcontinent even before Islam came into existence. Yet , they were under Mughals. LMAO. :msd

After effects of reading distorted history.
 
Just like you have Akhand Bharat comic books in India:imam Now you are even changing names of Muslim sounding cities.

There is are no such Akhand Bharat books in India. Stop projecting your myopic view of India formed by an online bubble.

Yes. We're changing the names to restore the ancient Dharmic originality lost due to foreign invasions, unlike a few who are still suffering from Stockholm syndrome and are not able to accept their Dharmic past.
 
Did my reply upset you? Do you not know that there have been Buddhists in the subcontinent as well. Perhaps my ancestors were that or even atheists. I am trying to educate Indian people coz you need it badly from an intelligent man like me.

Nah man. Not upset but a little sad, how people stay in denial of their own history to cover up their insecurities.

And yes , there is like 0.7% chance of your ancestors being Buddhist. So can't really eliminate that possibility.

And no thanks. We don't need to get educated by an "inteligent man like you" , who believe that Guptas and Mauryas were under Mughal rule. :rabada2
 
It's such a stupid thing to say that all South Asian Muslims used to be Hindu.... That is straight out of Mera Bharat mahaan textbook of indoctrination.

Heck every single Muslim today has forefathers who practiced some other religion. Majority of those who comprised the first Muslims used to be pagan worshippers. The greatest general in Islamic history used to be staunch anti-Islam pagan and even defeated Muslims in battle before accepting Islam.


So it is stupid to say all South Asian Muslims used to be Hindus. Same way all Arab Muslims used to worship fire or stone idols.



But who am I talking to, a Modi lover with Mera Bharat mahaan delusions.


No replies till I see something intelligent.

Depends on how far in history you want to go. But it's true, if you go back thousands of years then their might have been different religions other than Hinduism, Buddhism etc If you go back tens of thousands of years then might be some other religions that time.

I don't know why people care about such kind of history, at end of the day you are what you are now and it shouldn't matter what your ancestors practiced 1000s of years ago.
 
I ve have had opportunity to spend time with Arabs, Turks and Indians. I felt more comfortable and mentally connected with Indians than the other 2.

I m quite tall and look Middle eastern, so many ppl confuse me for being Turk/Arab but still the same connection isnt there. That makes me think that more than physical appeared, its the common culture, language, food and mentality that makes you feel a kinship to a group of people.
 
During these Hindu empires Muslims were few and far between. Our history is much more impartial then that of India and it's silly fantasies. These Hindu empires ruled mostly what is India today and were often under the Mughals too. What empire did Akbar's Jodhaa belong too?

Being Pakistani, please don't try prove a point without anything intelligent to say. All these empires were great, and far preceded Islam.

What does actually separate Pakistan from the rest of India though is that, aside from those few Indian empires, the region that is now Pakistan was often ruled by another empire that didn't also rule India. These empires include the Persian Empires, Diadochi Empires, Macedonian Empire (Alexander), Mongol Horde, Timurid Empire, Indo-Greek Kingdom, Muslim Caliphates, Afghan Empire. There were also points in time where the region of modern day Pakistan was independent.
 
Did my reply upset you? Do you not know that there have been Buddhists in the subcontinent as well. Perhaps my ancestors were that or even atheists. I am trying to educate Indian people coz you need it badly from an intelligent man like me.

Punjabi Jats are actually descended from Buddhists who converted to Islam. Other than that, most Punjabis are descendants of Hindus.
 
Congratulations to Pakistan! Finally the stigma of being close to Indians is cured.
 
What is this nonsense? Pakistan is a South Asian country. Now, if they only included KPK in Central Asia then there’s some room for debate.
 
People often underestimate vastness of subcontinent on maps. It is a massive massive chunk of land with literally billions of people living inside.

Even inside present day India, people from southern regions are different from people from North (racially religiously and culturally).

That said, in the end, we are all human beings.

And, as Prophet PBUH said:
... an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action ...

Personally, I don't feel myself superior over anyone and neither do I feel inferior.
 
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I think the people and countries who look towards the future are the ones doing well, you can learn from history's mistakes but trying to live in history makes you a useless relic. I dont see how the origins of Pakistani people is going to change what pakistan is today or what they will be in the future. It's you who can change things, not your ancestors
 
I think the people and countries who look towards the future are the ones doing well, you can learn from history's mistakes but trying to live in history makes you a useless relic. I dont see how the origins of Pakistani people is going to change what pakistan is today or what they will be in the future. It's you who can change things, not your ancestors

Unfortunately its a bigger problem in India, where ppl are marginalised based on their ancestors, religions etc Proper Secularism is needed to address the issues and religious extremism by RsS/Himduvitas.
 
We never read akhand bharat in our history books. You would be surprised we have read more about all empires irrespective of religion.

That's weird. I have often read how the educational books on history in India have changed.

That's ok. Budhism , hinduism, sikhism etc are all bharat religions , dharmic religions. Even if your ancestors followed budhism still you won't be arab or turk. You and your coming generations would always be bhartiya, hindustani.
You should never be ashamed of your roots.

Buddha was born in Nepal not India so Buddhism is not your religion where as most Sikh's also distance themselves from Hinduism . My coming generations will be Pakistani like me we were/will be born after 1947. That is like saying your coming generations will be Muslim's accept it or not, makes no sense. According to many historians Indian's have their roots in Africa! See I don't want to be a Turk neither do they in return want to be Arab's.
 
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Unfortunately its a bigger problem in India, where ppl are marginalised based on their ancestors, religions etc Proper Secularism is needed to address the issues and religious extremism by RsS/Himduvitas.

India has not had a ethnicity based war which ended up splitting the country into 2 in 72 years since independence that too when India has 100X more languages and culture than pretty much every country in the world. let us say everything is rosy with the Muhajirs,Pashtuns,Baloch etc etc and it is just Indian propaganda. Will believe you there is no problem there

However India having 1000's of languages,dialects,relion,culture seem to be doing fan. This so called RSS/Hindutva narrative might spread a phobia in some parts of Pakistan but it is business as usual for India the world's largest democracy. if no development is done, people will throw out the so called Hindutva party like it was done in 2004. So yeah despite all the problem's India's secularism is just doing fine. Thanks foe the concern though.

Unfortunately its a bigger problem in India, where ppl are marginalised based on their ancestors, religions etc Proper Secularism is needed to address the issues and religious extremism by RsS/Himduvitas.

India has not had a ethnicity based war which ended up splitting the country into 2 in 72 years since independence that too when India has 100X more languages and culture than pretty much every country in the world. let us say everything is rosy with the Muhajirs,Pashtuns,Baloch etc etc and it is just Indian propaganda. Will believe you there is no problem there

However India having 1000's of languages,dialects,relion,culture seem to be doing fan. This so called RSS/Hindutva narrative might spread a phobia in some parts of Pakistan but it is business as usual for India the world's largest democracy. if no development is done, people will throw out the so called Hindutva party like it was done in 2004. So yeah despite all the problem's India's secularism is just doing fine. Thanks foe the concern though.

Buddha was born in Nepal not India so Buddhism is not your religion where as most Sikh's also distance themselves from Hinduism . My coming generations will be Pakistani like me we were/will be born after 1947. That is like saying your coming generations will be Muslim's accept it or not, makes no sense. According to many historians Indian's have their roots in Africa! See I don't want to be a Turk neither do they in return want to be Arab's.

Well if you want to get into the specifics then, he got enlightened in what is the current day India. Bihar to be more specific and spread the religion from there. Not sure what you are trying to prove here.
 
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What is this nonsense? Pakistan is a South Asian country. Now, if they only included KPK in Central Asia then there’s some room for debate.

So science is nonsense? This is based on genetic studies of the people of the Indus plains (Punjab + Sindh + Kashmir) and they've always clustered further away from the people of south-central India and Bangladesh lol.
 
So science is nonsense? This is based on genetic studies of the people of the Indus plains (Punjab + Sindh + Kashmir) and they've always clustered further away from the people of south-central India and Bangladesh lol.

What does ancestry prove anyway? An African American might be the same race as a person from Africa but he is going to be culturally more close to say a White guy from the US than a person from Africa.

So what does prove? Also for example say someone like Sarfaraz Ahmed and I am not being vain and talking about his looks doesn't look Central Asian to me? He can pass of as an Indian,Srilankan,Pakistani or a Bangladeshi. Virat Kohli and Shehzad memes are famous because they look similar. Sure we all may be a mix of races,genes etc etc but at the end of the day people from the Subcontinent are culturally similar regardless of religion.

Sure some of you may take pride as a descendant of some genetic footprint left by a "settler"/ "invader".Great. I don't think it is a badge of honor.
 
So science is nonsense? This is based on genetic studies of the people of the Indus plains (Punjab + Sindh + Kashmir) and they've always clustered further away from the people of south-central India and Bangladesh lol.
The clustering of these genetic companies isn’t based on much science.

What does ancestry prove anyway? An African American might be the same race as a person from Africa but he is going to be culturally more close to say a White guy from the US than a person from Africa.

So what does prove? Also for example say someone like Sarfaraz Ahmed and I am not being vain and talking about his looks doesn't look Central Asian to me? He can pass of as an Indian,Srilankan,Pakistani or a Bangladeshi. Virat Kohli and Shehzad memes are famous because they look similar. Sure we all may be a mix of races,genes etc etc but at the end of the day people from the Subcontinent are culturally similar regardless of religion.

Sure some of you may take pride as a descendant of some genetic footprint left by a "settler"/ "invader".Great. I don't think it is a badge of honor.
Not that I agree with the clustering of these companies but Sarfraz’s roots aren’t from what’s included in Central Asia by AncestryDNA.
 
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Not that I agree with the clustering of these companies but Sarfraz’s roots aren’t from what’s included in Central Asia by AncestryDNA.

I was just making a point that some people may different genetic footprints but we are classified culturally more than anything else. I am not sure what is there to take pride in the fact that someone has Arab or Turkish ancestry.
 
What does ancestry prove anyway? An African American might be the same race as a person from Africa but he is going to be culturally more close to say a White guy from the US than a person from Africa.

So what does prove? Also for example say someone like Sarfaraz Ahmed and I am not being vain and talking about his looks doesn't look Central Asian to me? He can pass of as an Indian,Srilankan,Pakistani or a Bangladeshi. Virat Kohli and Shehzad memes are famous because they look similar. Sure we all may be a mix of races,genes etc etc but at the end of the day people from the Subcontinent are culturally similar regardless of religion.

Sure some of you may take pride as a descendant of some genetic footprint left by a "settler"/ "invader".Great. I don't think it is a badge of honor.

There are big cultural differences between some regions, like south india and sri lanka are extremely different from us.

Sarfaraz can easily pass as central Indian but Sri Lankans look so distinct from the rest of the subcontinent.

Zimbabwe.jpg


I was just making a point that some people may different genetic footprints but we are classified culturally more than anything else. I am not sure what is there to take pride in the fact that someone has Arab or Turkish ancestry.

It's not about being Arab or Turkish lol, the people of Pakistan and northern India have more Aryan and Neolithic Farmer ancestry from the Caucasus mountains, this ancestry dates back thousands of years before Islam came to subcontinent.

The clustering of these genetic companies isn’t based on much science.

It is and it supports history. The north and south parts of the subcontinent are dominated by two very distinct linguistic groups - Indo-Aryan and Dravidian.

Iranians themselves are mixture of caucasians and Mongoloid. Tajiks, Kazaks, Uzbeks and Azerbaijanis have even more genetic influence of Mongoloids. Whereas in Northern subcontinent’s population its to much lesser extent.

As for skin colour its not necessarily/fully indicative of genetics. There is much more to it.

That's quite a reach, most Iranians are over 90% Caucasian on these tests.
 
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It's not about being Arab or Turkish lol, the people of Pakistan and northern India have more Aryan and Neolithic Farmer ancestry from the Caucasus mountains, this ancestry dates back thousands of years before Islam came to subcontinent.

You are generalizing. There are plenty of people from the South India that can pass of North Indians and vice versa. I don't want to take names and classify someone as fair or dark, so I will let you look into that.

Sure people from different races might have inter-mingled in SC but you are going by the stereotype of people looking a certain way.

Sticking to the earlier example, regardless of what the ethnic origin aren't Afridi and Sarfaraz Ahmed culturally one not just on religion but culturally as well. Sure you can dissect what mountains Afridi's ancestors crossed on a camel/horse or what train from UP Sarfaraz family took, makes for good reading but at the end of the day people from SC have their own unique cultural identity.

The problem is in a country like USA this DNA ancestry is good for some random white due to know he has viking blood or his family migrated from Poland or escaped persecution from World War 2 but in SC for some reason in Pakistan especially and forgive me for generalizing I have noticed that people take pride that they are Iranian or from Arabia. Can't we just leave it alone saying that we all are the same culturally. Sure on religion lines we are obviously already divided.
 
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Being Pakistani, please don't try prove a point without anything intelligent to say. All these empires were great, and far preceded Islam.

What does actually separate Pakistan from the rest of India though is that, aside from those few Indian empires, the region that is now Pakistan was often ruled by another empire that didn't also rule India. These empires include the Persian Empires, Diadochi Empires, Macedonian Empire (Alexander), Mongol Horde, Timurid Empire, Indo-Greek Kingdom, Muslim Caliphates, Afghan Empire. There were also points in time where the region of modern day Pakistan was independent.

I wish you would do some reading before running your mouth. No empire is ever "great" including the Mughal one. All are bloody and have killed many innocent people so I don't see what according to you is "great" about any of them? What separates Pakistan from India more then anything else is Islam, like it or not. Even Indian Muslim's are very different to us in terms of how they see life. So if different people ruled both Pakistan and India then we were naturally never the same rather forced to be one by the Mughals and British like I always argue. Pakistan for most of it's history was always independent so it being formed as a separate country was the most natural thing to happen.
 
I wish you would do some reading before running your mouth. No empire is ever "great" including the Mughal one. All are bloody and have killed many innocent people so I don't see what according to you is "great" about any of them? What separates Pakistan from India more then anything else is Islam, like it or not. Even Indian Muslim's are very different to us in terms of how they see life. So if different people ruled both Pakistan and India then we were naturally never the same rather forced to be one by the Mughals and British like I always argue. Pakistan for most of it's history was always independent so it being formed as a separate country was the most natural thing to happen.

Islam was only a consequence of the different empires that ruled modern day Pakistan. Much of Pakistani culture is not shaped by Islam, but by the many people that ruled over the land.

Second of all, you can't hold all these empires to the standards of the 21st century. All of these empires achieved greatness relative the standards of their eras. I feel like I do significantly more reading than you, considering you believe that the Maurya Empire of 300BC was ruled by the Mughals.

By the way, why don't you read up about Ashoka the Great? He was a pacifist, brought stability and peace to the subcontinent, played a huge role in the spread of Buddhism. Or why don't you read up about Cyrus the Great? The great Persian emperor who united Iran, liberated many peoples, and is credited with inventing the very concept of human rights (over 1000 years before Islam). These people, among many others, ruled over what is now Pakistan, and yes they had flaws and probably did kill many innocent people, but again, you can't hold them to the standards of the 21st century. Much of what they achieved hold huge importance in the advancement of civilization.
 
Sad to see another thread fall into the Muslim v Hindu debate. Can't we stick to debating ancestries rather than religious identities?

P.S. I have my lineage tree all the way back to the 8th Imam Al Reza AS and his ancestry can be publicly found all the way back to Adam AS so I tend not to worry about DNA ancestries.
 
Islam was only a consequence of the different empires that ruled modern day Pakistan. Much of Pakistani culture is not shaped by Islam, but by the many people that ruled over the land.

Second of all, you can't hold all these empires to the standards of the 21st century. All of these empires achieved greatness relative the standards of their eras. I feel like I do significantly more reading than you, considering you believe that the Maurya Empire of 300BC was ruled by the Mughals.

By the way, why don't you read up about Ashoka the Great? He was a pacifist, brought stability and peace to the subcontinent, played a huge role in the spread of Buddhism. Or why don't you read up about Cyrus the Great? The great Persian emperor who united Iran, liberated many peoples, and is credited with inventing the very concept of human rights (over 1000 years before Islam). These people, among many others, ruled over what is now Pakistan, and yes they had flaws and probably did kill many innocent people, but again, you can't hold them to the standards of the 21st century. Much of what they achieved hold huge importance in the advancement of civilization.

I always found the similarities in the story of the prophet Muhammad and Cyrus.

Eventually, I came to know that one of his closest confidants was a learned Persian. Cyrus was seen by his subjects as the embodiment of perfection on earth and considered a prophet by some Jews.
 
It is said that the story of Dhul-Qarnayn in Surah-al-Kahf could be talking about Cyrus the Great. Cyrus is in fact credited for inventing the concept of human rights, and he actually liberated many people from the Babylonians, including the Jews, whom he allowed to return to Israel.

It is true, there are many parallels between Cyrus and Prophet Mohammad, especially how Cyrus united all the people of his region, and liberated others from oppression, bringing a new sort of law.
 
I always found the similarities in the story of the prophet Muhammad and Cyrus.

Eventually, I came to know that one of his closest confidants was a learned Persian. Cyrus was seen by his subjects as the embodiment of perfection on earth and considered a prophet by some Jews.

It is said that the story of Dhul-Qarnayn in Surah-al-Kahf could be talking about Cyrus the Great. Cyrus is in fact credited for inventing the concept of human rights, and he actually liberated many people from the Babylonians, including the Jews, whom he allowed to return to Israel.

It is true, there are many parallels between Cyrus and Prophet Mohammad, especially how Cyrus united all the people of his region, and liberated others from oppression, bringing a new sort of law.

Forgot to quote.
 
It is said that the story of Dhul-Qarnayn in Surah-al-Kahf could be talking about Cyrus the Great. Cyrus is in fact credited for inventing the concept of human rights, and he actually liberated many people from the Babylonians, including the Jews, whom he allowed to return to Israel.

It is true, there are many parallels between Cyrus and Prophet Mohammad, especially how Cyrus united all the people of his region, and liberated others from oppression, bringing a new sort of law.

Most Muslim commentators associate Dhul-Qarnayn with Alexander of Macedon. There are some who associate him with Cyrus, but most don’t.
 
Most Muslim commentators associate Dhul-Qarnayn with Alexander of Macedon. There are some who associate him with Cyrus, but most don’t.

Don't think any one of Alexander or Dhul-Qarnayn are confirmed for this ayat, could even be a completely different person, just saying that it could be Cyrus, since he's viewed in a positive light by Jews too. Reading over it, Alexander doesn't really make sense to me.
 
Don't think any one of Alexander or Dhul-Qarnayn are confirmed for this ayat, could even be a completely different person, just saying that it could be Cyrus, since he's viewed in a positive light by Jews too. Reading over it, Alexander doesn't really make sense to me.

Alexander lifted and adopted a lot of the mythology of Cyrus, just like the early Muslim movement did, so it’s feasible that they could be alluding to either, especially when we consider the role Salman the Persian, possibly played.
 
Islam was only a consequence of the different empires that ruled modern day Pakistan. Much of Pakistani culture is not shaped by Islam, but by the many people that ruled over the land.

Second of all, you can't hold all these empires to the standards of the 21st century. All of these empires achieved greatness relative the standards of their eras. I feel like I do significantly more reading than you, considering you believe that the Maurya Empire of 300BC was ruled by the Mughals.

By the way, why don't you read up about Ashoka the Great? He was a pacifist, brought stability and peace to the subcontinent, played a huge role in the spread of Buddhism. Or why don't you read up about Cyrus the Great? The great Persian emperor who united Iran, liberated many peoples, and is credited with inventing the very concept of human rights (over 1000 years before Islam). These people, among many others, ruled over what is now Pakistan, and yes they had flaws and probably did kill many innocent people, but again, you can't hold them to the standards of the 21st century. Much of what they achieved hold huge importance in the advancement of civilization.

Of course Pak culture is shaped by Islam and unfortunately now Arab ism as well. I am no fan of the latter so it depends on what you consider as Islamic culture. You can not put Islamic culture in a box then say this is it!

Rather I feel most people here like you follow a common culture and opinion where as I consider all points of views. So from where I am standing oppression has always been a part of every empire including today when the American's are busy murdering anything that movies. I am sure you don't consider all that is going on in the world to be an extension of their empire coz the media paints them as the "good guy's". As for the Gupta empire and whatever else the Moghul's did dominate over them, thing is there was nothing Islamic about the Moghuls at all. To maintain their power over thee subcontinent they'd do anything.

Where did Ashoka running around in his lungi with t-rex as his best buddy come from? He was a Hindu who converted to Buddhism? So what point are you making by telling me of all these kings and queen's of ancient times? If it is that there were great civilisations pre Islam then you are only stating the obvious. Don't forget the Greek's by the way whilst on your world tour! One thing that is interesting is how the west only undermines Islamic history by calling it violent whilst ignoring far bloodier empires that came and went including the British one.
 
Don't even know where to start with this mess of a post. All I'll say is to stop looking at things from the perspective of Islam vs everyone else.

Of course Pak culture is shaped by Islam and unfortunately now Arab ism as well. I am no fan of the latter so it depends on what you consider as Islamic culture. You can not put Islamic culture in a box then say this is it!

Of course Pakistan is shaped by Islam to some extent, but not by as much as people tend to think. There is a reason why Indian and Pakistani Muslims are culturally different, it's because Pakistan has Persian, Afghan, Turkic, and Greek influences that India does not have.

Rather I feel most people here like you follow a common culture and opinion where as I consider all points of views. So from where I am standing oppression has always been a part of every empire including today when the American's are busy murdering anything that movies. I am sure you don't consider all that is going on in the world to be an extension of their empire coz the media paints them as the "good guy's". As for the Gupta empire and whatever else the Moghul's did dominate over them, thing is there was nothing Islamic about the Moghuls at all. To maintain their power over thee subcontinent they'd do anything.

Don't think I called America the "good guys", the violence they cause all around the world is simply unacceptable considering humanity has come to a point where we now value human rights, liberties, and freedoms more than ever. However, once again, calling out the rulers of past empires based on your 21st century moral code makes absolutely no sense. The likes of Julius Caesar, Ashoka, Cyrus, and even Akbar may not live up to 21st century morals, but they certainly did great things for their people, things that stood out as highly progressive for the time similar to how us Muslims have great reverence for Prophet Mohammad, who brought about things that are normal now, but were considered extremely progressive in the 6th century.

And once again, please stop stating things that you're totally unaware of. The Gupta Empire ended in the 6th century, the Mughals came into existence in the 16th century after fighting against the Delhi Sultanate, who were Muslim.

Where did Ashoka running around in his lungi with t-rex as his best buddy come from? He was a Hindu who converted to Buddhism? So what point are you making by telling me of all these kings and queen's of ancient times? If it is that there were great civilisations pre Islam then you are only stating the obvious. Don't forget the Greek's by the way whilst on your world tour! One thing that is interesting is how the west only undermines Islamic history by calling it violent whilst ignoring far bloodier empires that came and went including the British one.

The West collectively does not undermine Islamic history, you're talking more about White Supremacists. From my interactions, people here in the West are generally quite aware of how bloody European Imperialism was.
 
Don't even know where to start with this mess of a post. All I'll say is to stop looking at things from the perspective of Islam vs everyone else.



Of course Pakistan is shaped by Islam to some extent, but not by as much as people tend to think. There is a reason why Indian and Pakistani Muslims are culturally different, it's because Pakistan has Persian, Afghan, Turkic, and Greek influences that India does not have.



Don't think I called America the "good guys", the violence they cause all around the world is simply unacceptable considering humanity has come to a point where we now value human rights, liberties, and freedoms more than ever. However, once again, calling out the rulers of past empires based on your 21st century moral code makes absolutely no sense. The likes of Julius Caesar, Ashoka, Cyrus, and even Akbar may not live up to 21st century morals, but they certainly did great things for their people, things that stood out as highly progressive for the time similar to how us Muslims have great reverence for Prophet Mohammad, who brought about things that are normal now, but were considered extremely progressive in the 6th century.

And once again, please stop stating things that you're totally unaware of. The Gupta Empire ended in the 6th century, the Mughals came into existence in the 16th century after fighting against the Delhi Sultanate, who were Muslim.



The West collectively does not undermine Islamic history, you're talking more about White Supremacists. From my interactions, people here in the West are generally quite aware of how bloody European Imperialism was.

Not possible for a Muslim to look beyond Islam, just by suggesting this to a Muslim exposes your ignorance.

So what if Pak people are influenced by other cultures? Islam is according to the Qur'an and Hadith according to most believers not any culture. What you on about here? I am saying that most people especially the west calls America the good guys, did I accuse you off that? Pot calling kettle black here where you tell me how wonderful human right are today compared to centuries back as if you were living 500 years back! You fail to understand that warfare has changed now where armies kill millions with a few weapons compared to then when people were on horseback taking much longer to take the same number of lives. You get me? I don't think so!

So Akbar and his cronies often married to non Muslims were great Muslims according to your weird theory?? Yeah they also killed many non Muslims as well for the sake of their empire just like all empires did to strengthen their hold on everything. Simple point I am making once again that be it the Akbar's empire or today's America might has always ruled by force over weaker people. Khilfat-e-Rashida period during the time of the Prophet(saw) was the only really Islamic period where Muslim's excelled as Hassan Nisar has often argued.

Now understand this ace that even the Gupta empire you are obsessed with killed many innocent people not coz of religion but what power does to people. The west today is a much better place to live then anywhere else, I am not holding white people responsible for the sins of their forefathers. What?? There are so many writers in the west who have attacked the Prophet of Islam(SAW) in their blasphemous books, they are not white supremacists but humanists of Christian evangelists why ignoring their own atrocities.
 
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Not possible for a Muslim to look beyond Islam, just by suggesting this to a Muslim exposes your ignorance.

So what if Pak people are influenced by other cultures? Islam is according to the Qur'an and Hadith according to most believers not any culture. What you on about here? I am saying that most people especially the west calls America the good guys, did I accuse you off that? Pot calling kettle black here where you tell me how wonderful human right are today compared to centuries back as if you were living 500 years back! You fail to understand that warfare has changed now where armies kill millions with a few weapons compared to then when people were on horseback taking much longer to take the same number of lives. You get me? I don't think so!

Yes, Islam is by Quran and Hadith/Ahlulbayt (whichever one you believe), but we're not talking about Islam, we're talking about Pakistanis. You said that Indian and Pakistani Muslims are different because of Islam, which makes absolutely no sense. The reality, once again, is the cultural influence. Second of all, no, most people do not call America the good guys, at least not where I live.

And yes, human rights right now are far better than they were 500, or even 100 years ago, there is absolutely no denying that. We right now are living in an era of unparalleled peace, despite the conflicts that we see happening in the Middle East and some other parts of the world. In the past, the world lived in a state of perpetual warfare because war was the way you enriched your nation in terms of both finance and prestige. Nowadays, you can count the number of major conflicts on your fingers, there are hardly any wars to speak of relative to the past.

Sure, you have a point that a few weapons can annihilate vast amounts of people now. But again, these weapons either only exist as deterrents, are only used sparingly, and are generally only used to target the opposing army. Above all, there are far fewer conflict areas than there were in the past, and there are now international laws around how wars should be conducted, with protections for civilians and bans on certain types of weapons. Hence peace largely prevails around the world.

So Akbar and his cronies often married to non Muslims were great Muslims according to your weird theory?? Yeah they also killed many non Muslims as well for the sake of their empire just like all empires did to strengthen their hold on everything. Simple point I am making once again that be it the Akbar's empire or today's America might has always ruled by force over weaker people. Khilfat-e-Rashida period during the time of the Prophet(saw) was the only really Islamic period where Muslim's excelled as Hassan Nisar has often argued.

If you're talking about spiritual or religious greatness, then sure, no parallel exists to the rule of Prophet Mohammad. However, we are not talking about spiritual greatness because it is a totally subjective type of greatness that only you, I, and other Muslims even find great. The fact is that plenty of other rulers and empires have achieved great things over the course of history that have contributed significantly to the advancement of human civilization, and hence, deserve to be recognized as great.

Cyrus, in his conquests, may have killed a vast number of people, however, he liberated swathes of people, introduced the concept of human rights, and created a legacy that lasts to this day, with him acting as an inspiration for all leaders. Caesar may have been a womanizer, and arguably quite autocratic, but he also brought about changes to the Republic that created greater equality between Romans and non-Romans, he reformed the Republic to make it work better for the people, and he showed mercy to his enemies, Caesar's actions led to the collapse of the Republic and beginning of the Empire, ushering in an era of great prosperity that shaped the Mediterranean and the whole World quite significantly, the effects of which we still feel today. The Abbasid Caliphate may not have been a shining beacon of true Islamic virtue, but it simply can't be denied that the Caliphate reached greatness due to the huge scientific contributions it made in the advancement of human civilization.

Now understand this ace that even the Gupta empire you are obsessed with killed many innocent people not coz of religion but what power does to people.

Maybe many people were killed by the Guptas, but under this empire tat existed during the Indian golden age, huge advancements were made in the fields of mathematics and astronomy. The very concept of 0, and that the Earth moves around the sun, were developed under this Empire.

The west today is a much better place to live then anywhere else, I am not holding white people responsible for the sins of their forefathers. What?? There are so many writers in the west who have attacked the Prophet of Islam(SAW) in their blasphemous books, they are not white supremacists but humanists of Christian evangelists why ignoring their own atrocities.

And there are so many Western writers who have praised our Prophet too, so what is your point? There are also many writers in our parts of the world who openly criticize other cultures and religions too. They don't hold the same regard for The Prophet as we do, they are allowed to critique him if they want to. Yes, there is a certain line that shouldn't be cross that has been crossed in recent times, but critiquing another religion and their religious figures is totally acceptable.
 
Not possible for a Muslim to look beyond Islam, just by suggesting this to a Muslim exposes your ignorance.

Now it makes sense why you earlier said "I have always felt the link with Indians is overrated. We were only together with them during the Mughal and British era."

According to you, as a Muslim, for you the Gupta Empire and the Maurya Empire didn't exist because they came before Islam.

For others who look at history objectively, the Maurya Empire was larger than the British Empire and the Mughal Empire, and the Gupta Empire lasted longer than the British Empire and the Mughal Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires_in_India
https://www.mapsofindia.com/history/indian-empire.html
 
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Yes, Islam is by Quran and Hadith/Ahlulbayt (whichever one you believe), but we're not talking about Islam, we're talking about Pakistanis. You said that Indian and Pakistani Muslims are different because of Islam, which makes absolutely no sense. The reality, once again, is the cultural influence. Second of all, no, most people do not call America the good guys, at least not where I live.

And yes, human rights right now are far better than they were 500, or even 100 years ago, there is absolutely no denying that. We right now are living in an era of unparalleled peace, despite the conflicts that we see happening in the Middle East and some other parts of the world. In the past, the world lived in a state of perpetual warfare because war was the way you enriched your nation in terms of both finance and prestige. Nowadays, you can count the number of major conflicts on your fingers, there are hardly any wars to speak of relative to the past.

Sure, you have a point that a few weapons can annihilate vast amounts of people now. But again, these weapons either only exist as deterrents, are only used sparingly, and are generally only used to target the opposing army. Above all, there are far fewer conflict areas than there were in the past, and there are now international laws around how wars should be conducted, with protections for civilians and bans on certain types of weapons. Hence peace largely prevails around the world.



If you're talking about spiritual or religious greatness, then sure, no parallel exists to the rule of Prophet Mohammad. However, we are not talking about spiritual greatness because it is a totally subjective type of greatness that only you, I, and other Muslims even find great. The fact is that plenty of other rulers and empires have achieved great things over the course of history that have contributed significantly to the advancement of human civilization, and hence, deserve to be recognized as great.

Cyrus, in his conquests, may have killed a vast number of people, however, he liberated swathes of people, introduced the concept of human rights, and created a legacy that lasts to this day, with him acting as an inspiration for all leaders. Caesar may have been a womanizer, and arguably quite autocratic, but he also brought about changes to the Republic that created greater equality between Romans and non-Romans, he reformed the Republic to make it work better for the people, and he showed mercy to his enemies, Caesar's actions led to the collapse of the Republic and beginning of the Empire, ushering in an era of great prosperity that shaped the Mediterranean and the whole World quite significantly, the effects of which we still feel today. The Abbasid Caliphate may not have been a shining beacon of true Islamic virtue, but it simply can't be denied that the Caliphate reached greatness due to the huge scientific contributions it made in the advancement of human civilization.



Maybe many people were killed by the Guptas, but under this empire tat existed during the Indian golden age, huge advancements were made in the fields of mathematics and astronomy. The very concept of 0, and that the Earth moves around the sun, were developed under this Empire.



And there are so many Western writers who have praised our Prophet too, so what is your point? There are also many writers in our parts of the world who openly criticize other cultures and religions too. They don't hold the same regard for The Prophet as we do, they are allowed to critique him if they want to. Yes, there is a certain line that shouldn't be cross that has been crossed in recent times, but critiquing another religion and their religious figures is totally acceptable.

Indian Muslims follow a what they call "Ganga Jamna tehzeeb" that is a combo of Hinduism and Islam. This is something no other Muslim community does certainly not Pakistanis. There are many such difference between us an that annoying lot across the road. To them it is Islam not cultural difference in the sense that they claim to be true followers of the Deen!:sarf2 Yeah right marrying Hindu's and following their culture yet they are the same as us?? Who are you trying to kid?

Have you any idea how many people die from war and starvation every day that you are telling me how wonderful today's human rights are. What you mean are things are good in the west not other countries in Africa and the Gulf region who are still living in the dark ages. There are many conflicts around the world that receive no coverage at all due to it's supposedly lack of importance. This "out of sight, out of mind" impression gives a false sense of security to naive people like you. The truth is bitter, very bitter.

Sure supposed greatness has been achieved in many era's at the expense of human suffering in bucket loads. Only thing is this as a Muslim I can't out rightly rave about the accomplishments of the British empire even though they built most of the infrastructure still used in Pak. I am not saying that Muslim empires were any less bloodier then what the Brit's or Yank's have done or do in this present day and age. They still tell us that the invasion of Iraq was a good thing not bothering to ask all who suffered! So would you rather live in a poor country or have some powerful army invade you, beat you up, loot you then make it richer?. All examples you have mentioned point to exactly what I am saying.

Yeah I know Hindu folk know their arithmetic and would probably have excelled without the Gupta family murdering them. See I just don't buy this belief that we need to beat people up to a pulp in order to teach them:sarf2 Now if someone invades my home to make me a PhD then I want none off it at all. I have always had this problem of invading other countries then telling the people "loosen up folks your kid's will one day thank us!!".

My point in the last paragraph is that I am not holding white people responsible as whole as to what has occurred in history. I am not saying that Muslim's are free from blame either from how things are in the Gulf and other Muslim countries either. Not saying that we should attack the west for past sins committed by their ancestors either anymore then I am for 26/11. I am however a great critic of them first attacking things that Muslims hold dear then playing innocent when some nutter blows himself up so save the Prophet's honour as ih he received divine instructions. Obviously when someone praises Rasoolullah(saw) then there will bo no such reaction. What they say about the Prophet is more then criticism like publishing blasphemous cartoons thereby inviting a violent reaction. No one is asking them to believe that he was a Prophet at all, why then do they not allow people to question the holocaust as IK said in his speech for starters? What they do is far beyond common criticism.
 
Now it makes sense why you earlier said "I have always felt the link with Indians is overrated. We were only together with them during the Mughal and British era."

According to you, as a Muslim, for you the Gupta Empire and the Maurya Empire didn't exist because they came before Islam.

For others who look at history objectively, the Maurya Empire was larger than the British Empire and the Mughal Empire, and the Gupta Empire lasted longer than the British Empire and the Mughal Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires_in_India
https://www.mapsofindia.com/history/indian-empire.html

Where did I say that the Gupta and other Hindu empires didn't exist first show me this? I said that the Mughal's ruled India for 800 years dominating Hindu empires so get your facts right. Also I have said that Mughals killed many innocents as well particularly Hindu's yet married in their community as well to further their own agenda. I think it is natural for the Gupta empire to have a long life in a Hindu majority land!!:lara
 
What a load of nonsense. My family stems from UP on the banks of Gunga and none of my relatives practice the kind of Islam that you are portraying. Infact when i visited them last time, I realised that they are more religiously conservative than those living in Karachi.

Majority of Muslims in India live in their own biradari/ghetto areas amongst other muslims and their day to day life is not very different to us Pakistanis. Bollywood Khans are in no way indicative of Indian muslim culture.
 
Indian Muslims follow a what they call "Ganga Jamna tehzeeb" that is a combo of Hinduism and Islam. This is something no other Muslim community does certainly not Pakistanis. There are many such difference between us an that annoying lot across the road. To them it is Islam not cultural difference in the sense that they claim to be true followers of the Deen!:sarf2 Yeah right marrying Hindu's and following their culture yet they are the same as us?? Who are you trying to kid?

Have you any idea how many people die from war and starvation every day that you are telling me how wonderful today's human rights are. What you mean are things are good in the west not other countries in Africa and the Gulf region who are still living in the dark ages. There are many conflicts around the world that receive no coverage at all due to it's supposedly lack of importance. This "out of sight, out of mind" impression gives a false sense of security to naive people like you. The truth is bitter, very bitter.

I never said there is no conflict in the world, nor did I say the human rights situation is perfect. But can you honestly tell me human rights now are the same as they were 500 or even 100 years ago? Absolutely not. There are only small pockets of the world right now that live with a similar human rights situation as the past. Even most of Asia and Africa have relatively better human rights in this era, there are just a few pockets like Kashmir, Xinxiang, Yemen, and a few other places in the Middle East and Africa. Even countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, as extremely repressive they are, are more free than most societies of the past.

Sure supposed greatness has been achieved in many era's at the expense of human suffering in bucket loads. Only thing is this as a Muslim I can't out rightly rave about the accomplishments of the British empire even though they built most of the infrastructure still used in Pak. I am not saying that Muslim empires were any less bloodier then what the Brit's or Yank's have done or do in this present day and age. They still tell us that the invasion of Iraq was a good thing not bothering to ask all who suffered! So would you rather live in a poor country or have some powerful army invade you, beat you up, loot you then make it richer?. All examples you have mentioned point to exactly what I am saying.

Yeah I know Hindu folk know their arithmetic and would probably have excelled without the Gupta family murdering them. See I just don't buy this belief that we need to beat people up to a pulp in order to teach them:sarf2 Now if someone invades my home to make me a PhD then I want none off it at all. I have always had this problem of invading other countries then telling the people "loosen up folks your kid's will one day thank us!!".

The people living in these empires would not have achieved what they did without living in the right type of environment. Science flourished in the Abbasid Caliphate because it was promoted by the rulers, the mathematicians in Ancient India made those developments in maths and astronomy because the government of the time allowed such developments to happen. How did a Pakistani from a modest background like Abdus Salam achieve so much? Yes, he was extremely intelligent, but he had to go to the UK to realise his full potential. He would not have had the same achievements in Pakistan simply because Pakistan lacks the opportunities and environment available to him in England. Sure, the empires of the past were oftentimes brutal, but that was the reality of that time period. I don't excuse the Americans or British though, as their brutality came in a time of enlightenment, and greater awareness and value of human rights.
 
[MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION]

To add to the above, I have many Indian Muslim friends. While they are definitely culturally different, I absolutely disagree with what you are saying about them. They absolutely do not combine Hinduism into their beliefs, nor have I seen them marrying into Hindus as if it's a normal thing. I know many Indians that are much better Muslims than Pakistani Muslims in fact, your comment reeks of ignorance.
 
Where did I say that the Gupta and other Hindu empires didn't exist first show me this? I said that the Mughal's ruled India for 800 years dominating Hindu empires so get your facts right. Also I have said that Mughals killed many innocents as well particularly Hindu's yet married in their community as well to further their own agenda. I think it is natural for the Gupta empire to have a long life in a Hindu majority land!!:lara

As usual your numbers are a bit off. Mughal power lasted from 1527 to about 1717. 190 years and not 800 years.

Your ignorance of history is quite astounding.

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