Making sense of the Salman Butt debate

[Junaids]

I have been profoundly surprised by the oversimplification of the debate in recent days, and by the consistent failure to ask the questions that have to be answered in order to formulate a coherent response.

The relevant questions are:

1. What actually happened in 2010 with Salman Butt, Kamran Akmal and Wahab Riaz?
2. What punishment did the ICC pass?
3. If that punishment is to be varied, what are the grounds for doing so?
4. What have the teams that Pakistan plays against done in terms of investigating and punishing their own alleged offenders?

QUESTION 1: What actually happened in 2010 in terms of Pakistan and fixing?
I will answer this solely by relying upon the ICC report which convicted Amir, Asif, Butt and their erstwhile agent Mazhar Majeed, and by the evidence given by prosecuting counsel in the court case which convicted them.

1. There were accusations that other members of the team had thrown 2 Test matches in Sri Lanka the previous year.
2. Mazhar Majeed gave evidence that players in the Pakistan team - but NOT Akmal, Amir, Asif or Butt - had taken bribes from him to lose the Sydney Test in January 2010.
3. The prosecution produced evidence in court that there were two fixing rings in the Pakistan dressing room in 2010, fixing matches, not no-balls, and that Amir, Akmal, Butt and Wahab were not part of either fixing group.
4. The prosecution alleged in particular that ODIs had been fixed in the West Indies 4 months earlier, but that it was outside the scope of a British criminal case so they had not interviewed any of the players about this.
5. The prosecution was clear that the News of the World video of Mazhar Majeed boasting about fixing was the basis of its case. The News of the World approached Majeed and asked him to get Asif and Amir - the only two famous players in the team - to bowl no-balls on demand to prove that he could control the players for a future match fix.
6. There was never any suggestion that the 3 no-balls were for betting purposes - they were ordered by the News of the World for the purpose of exposing corruption.
7. Amir and Butt readily accepted the fix. Asif repeatedly refused and in the end bowled one unpaid no-ball as a favour to the persistent Majeed.
8. Marked banknotes from the News of the World were found in the possession of Amir and Butt, but not Asif.
9. There is no evidence that anyone ever investigated the allegations of two matchfixing cliques in the Pakistan dressing room. The English Police had no inclination to do so because the NOTW videos of Majeed gave them a clear path to convictions for all parties.
10. It appears to have suited all parties to let the case be closed with the convictions of Asif, Amir and Butt, rather than trying to catch whoever Majeed used to fix the Sydney Test.

QUESTION 2: What punishment did the ICC pass?
The ICC Tribunal was at pains to state that this was not a matchfixing case, that the fixing was a newspaper sting which ordered that certain players be used - the captain and the two most famous players - and that a 5 year sentence was only passed because it was the mandatory fixed sentence.

The ICC report goes further, in section 242, by complaining that this minimum 5 year sentence led it to pass a longer sentence than the offences of Amir, Asif and Butt actually merited.

Section 231, relating exclusively to Salman Butt, explicitly comments upon his leadership skills, and his previous good record, and actually states that it would be a loss TO CRICKET if he should not resume his cricket career. It is extremely clear that the ICC intended for Salman Butt to resume his career once his sentence was served.

QUESTION 3: If the ICC sentence is to be varied (extended), what are the grounds for doing so?
As both the ICC Tribunal and the English court case observed, two fixing groups were in operation in the Pakistan dressing room in 2010 - and Amir and Butt were not members of either. Nobody appears to have ever made any attempt to investigate the real fixers.

It is effectively double jeopardy to add an extrajudicial additional punishment to any person without them being able to defend themselves. I cannot see why it should happen at all, but if it did, surely it should be when there are significant exacerbating aspects to the offence.

The eminent ICC Tribunal found no such exacerbating factors. Actually, it found the reverse - that the minimum sentence of 5 years suspension was excessively harsh for the relatively minor offences which were commissioned by a newspaper, not a fixing ring.

Salman Butt has just been obstructed from becoming a selector 13 years after he started a ten year suspension of which 5 years were suspended. (Which means that he was banned for 5 years and had to behave well for 5 more years, which he did.)

Compare this with the cases of the former England and Australia Chairmen of Selectors David Graveney and Trevor Hohns.

Both Graveney and Hohns had been banned from international cricket for violating the Commonwealth's Gleneagles Agreement by participating in Rebel Tours to Apartheid South Africa. At the fall of Apartheid we learned what was common knowledge all along - they were paid by the Apartheid government, using money which should have been spent on the Black population which suffered from minimal investment in healthcare, education and anything else.

Graveney and Hohns both profited at the expense of impoverished South Africans who died prematurely because of their taking resources from them. Their offences are clearly vastly more serious than those of Salman Butt, yet nobody bats an eyelid at their being promoted to chair their national selection panels.

QUESTION 4: How do other countries manage such situations?
Pakistan seems to have a weirdly puritanical approach to cricketing crime and punishment.

Does anybody seriously believe that Mark Waugh and Shane Warne simply gave weather descriptions to the Indian bookie they met with? Does anyone believe that Shane Warne took a thiazide diuretic to make his double chin look smaller?

More to the point, Pakistan is about to encounter an Australian bowling attack of Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Lyon. I wrote a match report from Durban on PakPassion in 2018 - two Tests before the team was caught ball-tampering - in which I effectively accused them of ball-tampering. But Cricket Australia was going to really struggle commercially for years if it had to ban its entire bowling attack which had been bowling the doctored balls. Cricket Australia ended up electing to set Terms of Reference for its investigation which started only at the lunch break on the day in question when Cameron Bancroft was caught with sandpaper in Cape Town.

Australia's bowlers have never been formally questioned about any tampering which took place prior to the Cape Town Test, and indeed they were only ever asked formally if tampering was discussed with them on that day. They have gone on to win the Ashes twice and the World Test Championship and the 50 over World Cup.

The spotfixing debate in Pakistan gets dumbed down to "they sold their country", with no attempt being made to get to the bottom of who was actually fixing matches. Meanwhile other countries appoint selectors who did much worse things, and deliberately craft toothless investigations so that they can continue to pick their strongest teams.

 

[MenInG]

Thanks for recap @Junaids

But here is what I know.

Salman Butt continued to insist about his innocence until a time when he guessed the only way (like Amir) was to come clean and he them apologized.

This was as cynical as it gets.

 

[zarak]

Thanks for recap @Junaids

But here is what I know.

Salman Butt continued to insist about his innocence until a time when he guessed the only way (like Amir) was to come clean and he them apologized.

This was as cynical as it gets.

That's a fair point and should be factored in.

 

[FearlessRoar]

I think people should not be too harsh on him. Let him breathe too. Yes, he should not serve in PCB decision-making roles. He can spend time in commentary and as an analyst.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Get him into the commentary team for the PSL and Pakistan’s home matches. He’s miles better than Bazid, Wasim and Waqar.

 

[hitthestump]

Thank you for the post Junaids.

But it shouldn't really matter what other countries do. Yes, cheating is not confined solely to Pakistan. But we need to worry about getting our own house in order.

Salman did sell his country. He put two of the best and brightest talents in the country into the firing line for the sake of his own personal gain. It would be a completely different story if he did this with Rao Iftikhar and Mohammad Khalil.

Salman deserves to carry the magnitude of what he did with him for the rest of his life and the rest of us need to ensure he acts as a stark example to others not to do the same.

 

[msb314]

Thank you for the post Junaids.

But it shouldn't really matter what other countries do. Yes, cheating is not confined solely to Pakistan. But we need to worry about getting our own house in order.

Salman did sell his country. He put two of the best and brightest talents in the country into the firing line for the sake of his own personal gain. It would be a completely different story if he did this with Rao Iftikhar and Mohammad Khalil.

Salman deserves to carry the magnitude of what he did with him for the rest of his life and the rest of us need to ensure he acts as a stark example to others not to do the same.

Well one of the “best and brightest” talents actually quit on us when we have him a second chance citing “workload” and issues with the team management even though it is blatantly clear he is pursuing UK citizenship for monetary gain..

Did Salman Butt force him to do that too? Probably not I think.

Less said about Asif the better but you probably know about his drug issues in 2006 as well as being caught in Dubai for further drug related issues after IPL 2008. Point is he was on the verge of being banned anyway before the spot fixing scandal..

I do not condone what Salman Butt did but Amir / Asif knew what they were getting into and fully complicit in those crimes.. They ruined their own careers but Amir still is the same way even today.. Not sure about Asif though..

 

[hitthestump]

Well one of the “best and brightest” talents actually quit on us when we have him a second chance citing “workload” and issues with the team management even though it is blatantly clear he is pursuing UK citizenship for monetary gain..

Did Salman Butt force him to do that too? Probably not I think.

Less said about Asif the better but you probably know about his drug issues in 2006 as well as being caught in Dubai for further drug related issues after IPL 2008. Point is he was on the verge of being banned anyway before the spot fixing scandal..

I do not condone what Salman Butt did but Amir / Asif knew what they were getting into and fully complicit in those crimes.. They ruined their own careers but Amir still is the same way even today.. Not sure about Asif though..

Yes i agree with you. Amir and Asif are disgraced individuals and far from innocent.

But this doesn't take away the magnitude of what Salman did. He was the ringleader. He was bestowed the responsibility of national team captain and abused it for himself. He did this knowing that the consequences of losing Asif and Amir would resonate throughout Pakistan for decades but still used them as his lackeys.

Despite that, i don't think we should stop Salman from making money from cricket now he's served his sentence. But in a top level administrative role with high responsibility? Not in a million years. Nobody who did what he did should get to do that.

If anyone thinks it's harsh...good. The outcome was harsh for Pakistan cricket. Yet the solution is simple. Don't fix.

 

[emranabbas]

PCB should implement a CRB check before employing anyone
should check for criminal records, as well as any rumours any sort in the past just to be on the safe side.
should also look for if someone looks dodgy and could potentially harm Pakistan cricket in future.

 

[Junaids]

A person’s failure to admit their guilt is factored in to their original sentence: it led to Butt getting a longer ban (5 years plus 5 years suspended) plus a longer prison sentence.

But it is a fundamental part of the western system of crime and punishment - including sporting offences - that once the sentence is completed, the person should be treated as having restored their good standing.

I absolutely despise the players who sold themselves to Apartheid’s wicked racist regime. But I have had to watch the likes of Gooch, Gatting, Emburey, Alderman and Hohns return to play for their country once their bans were completed.

I remain angry at Amir and Butt. But it’s lazy and misleading to say that they “sold their country”.

The prosecution - not the defence - was very clear in court about why they took the spotfixing money. They were in a team which was lurching from defeat to defeat for two reasons. Firstly, many or most of their teammates were matchfixing. Secondly, the PCB was blatantly causing endless defeats by its vindictive pursuit of vendettas, such as refusing to pick Younis Khan for the England tour.

Even the prosecution argued that Amir and Butt understood themselves to be engaging in a “victimless crime” which was harmless given that both their teammates and the PCB were effectively losing the series on purpose anyway.

 

[Junaids]

Yes i agree with you. Amir and Asif are disgraced individuals and far from innocent.

But this doesn't take away the magnitude of what Salman did. He was the ringleader. He was bestowed the responsibility of national team captain and abused it for himself. He did this knowing that the consequences of losing Asif and Amir would resonate throughout Pakistan for decades but still used them as his lackeys.

Despite that, i don't think we should stop Salman from making money from cricket now he's served his sentence. But in a top level administrative role with high responsibility? Not in a million years. Nobody who did what he did should get to do that.

If anyone thinks it's harsh...good. The outcome was harsh for Pakistan cricket. Yet the solution is simple. Don't fix.

To be precise, the PCB had got rid of Younis Khan as captain and had appointed Shahid Afridi as Test captain.

Afridi then ran away in mid-tour and Salman Butt became the skipper due to Afridi deserting his post and his country.

If anyone betrayed his country and caused this whole mess it was actually Shahid Afridi.

What Butt did was the equivalent of an army officer being caught stealing small amounts of supplies, which would lead to a dishonourable discharge.

Whereas what Afridi did was the equivalent of that officer deserting his post, which would lead to his execution.

But the judgment of people who understand Pakistan’s social system always seems to get clouded at this point. They want to crucify the spoiled posh boy, while they completely ignore the treachery of the man-baby who ran away from a tour he was officially leading.

 

[Junaids]

The selective memories of people shock me.

Nobody else has mentioned that the captain had run away in mid-tour.

Just like people were character-assassinating Haris Rauf last week for skipping a Test series. Even though the Pakistan captain Imran Khan refused to play home Test series against Australia in 1988-89 and against New Zealand in 1989-90 because it was too hot.

 

[Stewie]

Thanks for recap @Junaids

But here is what I know.

Salman Butt continued to insist about his innocence until a time when he guessed the only way (like Amir) was to come clean and he them apologized.

This was as cynical as it gets.

I remember that, the whole thing was terrible. For years he kept saying "there is no proof" and usually would not outright say "I am innocent". but he would vociferously deny any wrongdoing. I am almost inclined to say his lawyers and people around him advised him badly, because I am sure he was getting advised from somewhere to never admit to his crimes. His own personal lack of moral fiber may have something to do with it too. I think as Pakistanis, mostly we tend to never admit if we are wrong or have done something wrong. But Butt just took it to another level.
Then it was almost like someone flipped a switch inside him and he started issuing apologies. He thought if Amir got away with it, maybe he could too.

Throughout the years, he has appeared to have very low moral fiber.

 

[Technics 1210]

The selective memories of people shock me.

Nobody else has mentioned that the captain had run away in mid-tour.

Just like people were character-assassinating Haris Rauf last week for skipping a Test series. Even though the Pakistan captain Imran Khan refused to play home Test series against Australia in 1988-89 and against New Zealand in 1989-90 because it was too hot.

You are the one with a selective memory.

Khan retired from international cricket at the end of the World Cup in 1987 only for Zia Ul Haq to persuade IK to come back for the 1992 WC. Then there is the likes of Kohli, who also bailed mid Test series vs Australia. Haris Rauf is a nobody in Tests, Imran Khan was a bonafide superstar by the late 80s and had earned the right to be selective and even come out of retirement.

As for your analogy comparing Butt with an army officer being caught stealing small amounts of supplies, leading to a dishonourable discharge, oh boy, how wrong you are. What Butt did is the equivalent of an army officer selling secrets to the enemy, only to defect later.

What Afridi did was spot on, otherwise who knows how far Butt & Co would have infiltrated the Pakistan team.

 

[Major]

It was not a match fixing case, it was a spot fixing case.

Evidence was there, and investigation was also done by Scotland yard. The culprits admitted to what they did.

Case closed.

 

[ads101]

The selective memories of people shock me.

Nobody else has mentioned that the captain had run away in mid-tour.

Just like people were character-assassinating Haris Rauf last week for skipping a Test series. Even though the Pakistan captain Imran Khan refused to play home Test series against Australia in 1988-89 and against New Zealand in 1989-90 because it was too hot.

The issue isn’t the actual form of fixing. I accept ICC did put out short bans. That is what they do. But most countries in their position upgrades them to life bans. It is down to the country.

It also isn’t about the severity of the fixing. It is about discouraging future fixing, which can only be done if no tolerance is shown. I actually think a ban only in the players playing career is a good enough deterrent. I don’t particularly care about Butt’s appointment, more he’s just been thoroughly unlikable in his conduct in the media since the ban was over.

I suspect quite a few cricketers did not get caught and walked free. This is unfortunate, but we can only ban cricketers we have proof for. I do wonder actually whether there was enough to even convict asif on his own, and if he wasn’t lumped in with the rest, he may have gone free. But the other two there was enough, even if it wasn’t match fixing, but lesser spot fixing.

look how New Zealand handled it with Lou Vincent. They banned him from anything to do with cricket, I don’t think he can even set foot inside a stadium. And yet Lou Vincent did not make excuses or complain, but that he was sorry. That is more similar to the approach from both the board and the fixers themselves that I would like to see from Pakistan.

 

[kingusama92]

But it is a fundamental part of the western system of crime and punishment - including sporting offences - that once the sentence is completed, the person should be treated as having restored their good standing.

No, I disagree.

Let's say I sell corporate information to another company, get caught, and serve time in the West. I am not going to be welcomed back to my job.

I probably won't get a corporate job ever again because of my criminal record let alone the type of crime I've committed. This stuff follows you forever.

I can agree that none of them should have been allowed back. It should have been a consistent "no we won't select you" but then again Pakistan cricket is always absurd. Even now, the only reason they are keeping Salman Butt out has to do with the PR nightmare associated with this decision rather than an organization-wide refusal to work with him.

 

[MenInG]

No, I disagree.

Let's say I sell corporate information to another company, get caught, and serve time in the West. I am not going to be welcomed back to my job.

I probably won't get a corporate job ever again because of my criminal record let alone the type of crime I've committed. This stuff follows you forever.

I can agree that none of them should have been allowed back. It should have been a consistent "no we won't select you" but then again Pakistan cricket is always absurd. Even now, the only reason they are keeping Salman Butt out has to do with the PR nightmare associated with this decision rather than an organization-wide refusal to work with him.

Absolutely agree.

Banks, education etc - they do not allow convicted people back.

 

[Stewie]

Nice try by the op to do wordplay.

It was not a match fixing case, it was a spot fixing case.
Evidence was there, and investigation was also done by Scotland yard. The culprits admitted to what they did.

Case closed.

Rest is your wishful thinking.

Dont think you remember but Butt never admitted to it. Even after doing time, he said he was not at fault. It was only till he saw Amir making a comeback, he decided to come clean because he was desperate for a comeback.

Asif quietly accepted his fate and moved on.

The bigger point: Would you trust an individual who never came clean afer committing a crime to have a clear conscience?

 

[Major]

Dont think you remember but Butt never admitted to it. Even after doing time, he said he was not at fault. It was only till he saw Amir making a comeback, he decided to come clean because he was desperate for a comeback.

Asif quietly accepted his fate and moved on.

The bigger point: Would you trust an individual who never came clean afer committing a crime to have a clear conscience?

he did admit to the acu but to the public. By admitting they got the suspended sentence off their ban.

I dont want any fixer to be near Pakistan Cricket.

Asif, Amir and Butt sold out Pakistan just for a few pounds.

 

[MenInG]

Dont think you remember but Butt never admitted to it. Even after doing time, he said he was not at fault. It was only till he saw Amir making a comeback, he decided to come clean because he was desperate for a comeback.

Asif quietly accepted his fate and moved on.

The bigger point: Would you trust an individual who never came clean afer committing a crime to have a clear conscience?

One thing we will all admit to is that Salman Butt is very intelligent.

if only he had put his intelligence to better use.

 

[Stewie]

One thing we will all admit to is that Salman Butt is very intelligent.

if only he had put his intelligence to better use.

Thats the key problem. our people have intelligence in spades. Amir showed the intelligence of a seasoned quick when he was just 17. he still is pretty good to be honest.

just neve take proper advantage of it and put it to good use. We love using it to cut corners, scamming others, get rich quick, etc.

I think Asif's case has been the most tragic of them all. He just quietly drifted out in the wilderness and is currently playing in low level local leagues in the US. He openly rues over what he did now and how he killed his career.

 

[FearlessRoar]

He has 8 ODI hundreds. If he hadn't been involved in spot-fixing, he would have been one of the finest opening batters Pakistan ever produced.

 

[Major]

The selective memories of people shock me.

Nobody else has mentioned that the captain had run away in mid-tour.

Just like people were character-assassinating Haris Rauf last week for skipping a Test series. Even though the Pakistan captain Imran Khan refused to play home Test series against Australia in 1988-89 and against New Zealand in 1989-90 because it was too hot.

does that give justification to fix games?

No matter how you try to spin it, the fact is those three spot fixed and admitted to it

 

[Saj]

Don't try to make sense of Pakistan cricket

I guess the question that should be asked is if some former players who were named and shamed in the Qayyum report have held roles in Pakistan cricket over the years then why can't Salman Butt.

 

[Bewal Express]

Don't try to make sense of Pakistan cricket

I guess the question that should be asked is if some former players who were named and shamed in the Qayyum report have held roles in Pakistan cricket over the years then why can't Salman Butt.

They weren't convicted. Qayyum and the govt( NS GOVT) needed to have prosecuted the named players. Qayyum was a corrupt judge, and no one knows if his report has credibility

 

[Saj]

They weren't convicted. Qayyum and the govt( NS GOVT) needed to have prosecuted the named players. Qayyum was a corrupt judge, and no one knows if his report has credibility

The interesting part was what the summary said about each player.

 

[Bewal Express]

The interesting part was what the summary said about each player.

There was lots of rumours about the likes of Wasim, Waqar etc but no prosecutions. Qayyum himself was corrupt to the core, so we will never now. Thankfully the trio were convicted in the UK and the judges and CPS can't be brought

 

[shamaan]

Should be no were near any role within pcb.

 

[Rana]

I have been profoundly surprised by the oversimplification of the debate in recent days, and by the consistent failure to ask the questions that have to be answered in order to formulate a coherent response.

The relevant questions are:

1. What actually happened in 2010 with Salman Butt, Kamran Akmal and Wahab Riaz?
2. What punishment did the ICC pass?
3. If that punishment is to be varied, what are the grounds for doing so?
4. What have the teams that Pakistan plays against done in terms of investigating and punishing their own alleged offenders?

QUESTION 1: What actually happened in 2010 in terms of Pakistan and fixing?
I will answer this solely by relying upon the ICC report which convicted Amir, Asif, Butt and their erstwhile agent Mazhar Majeed, and by the evidence given by prosecuting counsel in the court case which convicted them.

1. There were accusations that other members of the team had thrown 2 Test matches in Sri Lanka the previous year.
2. Mazhar Majeed gave evidence that players in the Pakistan team - but NOT Akmal, Amir, Asif or Butt - had taken bribes from him to lose the Sydney Test in January 2010.
3. The prosecution produced evidence in court that there were two fixing rings in the Pakistan dressing room in 2010, fixing matches, not no-balls, and that Amir, Akmal, Butt and Wahab were not part of either fixing group.
4. The prosecution alleged in particular that ODIs had been fixed in the West Indies 4 months earlier, but that it was outside the scope of a British criminal case so they had not interviewed any of the players about this.
5. The prosecution was clear that the News of the World video of Mazhar Majeed boasting about fixing was the basis of its case. The News of the World approached Majeed and asked him to get Asif and Amir - the only two famous players in the team - to bowl no-balls on demand to prove that he could control the players for a future match fix.
6. There was never any suggestion that the 3 no-balls were for betting purposes - they were ordered by the News of the World for the purpose of exposing corruption.
7. Amir and Butt readily accepted the fix. Asif repeatedly refused and in the end bowled one unpaid no-ball as a favour to the persistent Majeed.
8. Marked banknotes from the News of the World were found in the possession of Amir and Butt, but not Asif.
9. There is no evidence that anyone ever investigated the allegations of two matchfixing cliques in the Pakistan dressing room. The English Police had no inclination to do so because the NOTW videos of Majeed gave them a clear path to convictions for all parties.
10. It appears to have suited all parties to let the case be closed with the convictions of Asif, Amir and Butt, rather than trying to catch whoever Majeed used to fix the Sydney Test.

QUESTION 2: What punishment did the ICC pass?
The ICC Tribunal was at pains to state that this was not a matchfixing case, that the fixing was a newspaper sting which ordered that certain players be used - the captain and the two most famous players - and that a 5 year sentence was only passed because it was the mandatory fixed sentence.

The ICC report goes further, in section 242, by complaining that this minimum 5 year sentence led it to pass a longer sentence than the offences of Amir, Asif and Butt actually merited.

Section 231, relating exclusively to Salman Butt, explicitly comments upon his leadership skills, and his previous good record, and actually states that it would be a loss TO CRICKET if he should not resume his cricket career. It is extremely clear that the ICC intended for Salman Butt to resume his career once his sentence was served.

QUESTION 3: If the ICC sentence is to be varied (extended), what are the grounds for doing so?
As both the ICC Tribunal and the English court case observed, two fixing groups were in operation in the Pakistan dressing room in 2010 - and Amir and Butt were not members of either. Nobody appears to have ever made any attempt to investigate the real fixers.

It is effectively double jeopardy to add an extrajudicial additional punishment to any person without them being able to defend themselves. I cannot see why it should happen at all, but if it did, surely it should be when there are significant exacerbating aspects to the offence.

The eminent ICC Tribunal found no such exacerbating factors. Actually, it found the reverse - that the minimum sentence of 5 years suspension was excessively harsh for the relatively minor offences which were commissioned by a newspaper, not a fixing ring.

Salman Butt has just been obstructed from becoming a selector 13 years after he started a ten year suspension of which 5 years were suspended. (Which means that he was banned for 5 years and had to behave well for 5 more years, which he did.)

Compare this with the cases of the former England and Australia Chairmen of Selectors David Graveney and Trevor Hohns.

Both Graveney and Hohns had been banned from international cricket for violating the Commonwealth's Gleneagles Agreement by participating in Rebel Tours to Apartheid South Africa. At the fall of Apartheid we learned what was common knowledge all along - they were paid by the Apartheid government, using money which should have been spent on the Black population which suffered from minimal investment in healthcare, education and anything else.

Graveney and Hohns both profited at the expense of impoverished South Africans who died prematurely because of their taking resources from them. Their offences are clearly vastly more serious than those of Salman Butt, yet nobody bats an eyelid at their being promoted to chair their national selection panels.

QUESTION 4: How do other countries manage such situations?
Pakistan seems to have a weirdly puritanical approach to cricketing crime and punishment.

Does anybody seriously believe that Mark Waugh and Shane Warne simply gave weather descriptions to the Indian bookie they met with? Does anyone believe that Shane Warne took a thiazide diuretic to make his double chin look smaller?

More to the point, Pakistan is about to encounter an Australian bowling attack of Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Lyon. I wrote a match report from Durban on PakPassion in 2018 - two Tests before the team was caught ball-tampering - in which I effectively accused them of ball-tampering. But Cricket Australia was going to really struggle commercially for years if it had to ban its entire bowling attack which had been bowling the doctored balls. Cricket Australia ended up electing to set Terms of Reference for its investigation which started only at the lunch break on the day in question when Cameron Bancroft was caught with sandpaper in Cape Town.

Australia's bowlers have never been formally questioned about any tampering which took place prior to the Cape Town Test, and indeed they were only ever asked formally if tampering was discussed with them on that day. They have gone on to win the Ashes twice and the World Test Championship and the 50 over World Cup.

The spotfixing debate in Pakistan gets dumbed down to "they sold their country", with no attempt being made to get to the bottom of who was actually fixing matches. Meanwhile other countries appoint selectors who did much worse things, and deliberately craft toothless investigations so that they can continue to pick their strongest teams.

Brilliant post

If I remember clearly, there was serious beef between Malik and Mohammad Yousuf during the Australia tour of 2010. That’s two names, that could be two factions

 

[Rana]

Just like people were character-assassinating Haris Rauf last week for skipping a Test series. Even though the Pakistan captain Imran Khan refused to play home Test series against Australia in 1988-89 and against New Zealand in 1989-90 because it was too hot.

Lol cornered tigers

 

[FearlessRoar]

135 appearances for Pakistan

5,209 runs including 11 centuries in international cricket

Happy birthday Salman Butt

 

[Kianig89]

This Fiixsar doing podcast from PCB official, disgusting

 

[Devadwal]

This Fiixsar doing podcast from PCB official, disgusting

Wasn't pakistan player's recently used Salman butt cricketing facility at the training

I don't know this is true or not but @Rana said

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This Fiixsar doing podcast from PCB official, disgusting

Giving this guy a platform is a pretty pathetic thing to do

 

[MenInG]

Giving this guy a platform is a pretty pathetic thing to do

There is a subliminal message in that move.

 

[Rana]

Wasn't pakistan player's recently used Salman butt cricketing facility at the training

I don't know this is true or not but @Rana said

Salman Butt is the head coach at Ghani institute. He calls all the shots there. A lot of Pakistan’s top players (including Babar Azam) are going there to practice during their off time instead of playing FC cricket

 

[Rana]

Salman Butt is the head coach at Ghani institute. He calls all the shots there. A lot of Pakistan’s top players (including Babar Azam) are going there to practice during their off time instead of playing FC cricket

It’s the reason why you will always see Salman Butt, like Tanvir Ahmed always defending Babar Azam.

Sab aik khet ki mooliya hain.

Aave ka Aava bigra hua hai

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

There is a subliminal message in that move.

Clearly. I guess in Pakistan people will forget anything over the passage of time. Luckily with Butt there is still plenty of public backlash , as evidenced by the bonehead decision to make him a selector

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Salman Butt is the head coach at Ghani institute. He calls all the shots there. A lot of Pakistan’s top players (including Babar Azam) are going there to practice during their off time instead of playing FC cricket

Butt is a very well connected guy, especially in Lahore. Probably how he keeps finding his way back into Pakistan cricket constantly whether its a commentary gig or being made a freaking selector

 

[Devadwal]

Clearly. I guess in Pakistan people will forget anything over the passage of time. Luckily with Butt there is still plenty of public backlash , as evidenced by the bonehead decision to make him a selector

But at one hand PCB and Pakistan fans supported the inclusion of Mohammad Aamir while other hand they were/are criticized butt.

Isn't this double standards?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

But at one hand PCB and Pakistan fans supported the inclusion of Mohammad Aamir while other hand they were/are criticized butt.

Isn't this double standards?

It isn't exactly that black and white. Butt's offense was much worse than Amir's. Because not only was he captain and a senior member of the team but he is also the one who masterminded the whole thing with Mazhar Majeed, and convinced Amir and Asif to deliberately bowl no-balls.

If there is anyone in this whole situation who should be forgiven, its Amir. Because he was 18 and someone who was young and immature enough to be manipulated.

 

[Devadwal]

It isn't exactly that black and white. Butt's offense was much worse than Amir's. Because not only was he captain and a senior member of the team but he is also the one who masterminded the whole thing with Mazhar Majeed, and convinced Amir and Asif to deliberately bowl no-balls.

If there is anyone in this whole situation who should be forgiven, its Amir. Because he was 18 and someone who was young and immature enough to be manipulated.

I was expecting exactly same reply.

Point is Aamir inclusion was a very bad example for others, showing them that they can get away with criminal activities if they are kids.

Its pakistani people's choice whoever they can support but i never supports any fixers to the national team again.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I was expecting exactly same reply.

Point is Aamir inclusion was a very bad example for others, showing them that they can get away with criminal activities if they are kids.

Its pakistani people's choice whoever they can support but i never supports any fixers to the national team again.

Good for you, I guess. That's your opinion. Btw Pakistanis never elected a match-fixer as a member of the parliament. So you would be better served getting off your high horse.

 

[Justcrazy]

Pakistan should have taken strong action against 90s stars as well. That could have been a deterrent.

 

[Devadwal]

Good for you, I guess. That's your opinion. Btw Pakistanis never elected a match-fixer as a member of the parliament. So you would be better served getting off your high horse.

Its seems like you're badly hurting with my reply so restore to whataboutery

Lots of politicians are/ were criminal backgrounds in every Country's

But we are talking about cricket and you're changing the entire narrative . LoL

 

[Devadwal]

Pakistan should have taken strong action against 90s stars as well. That could have been a deterrent.

How can they takes when pakistan fan's are openly supporting fixer in the team.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Its seems like you're badly hurting with my reply so restore to whataboutery

Lots of politicians are/ were criminal backgrounds in every Country's

But we are talking about cricket and you're changing the entire narrative . LoL

Your reply was a troll-worthy reply and it got a troll-worthy response. Whatever your opinion may be on the matter, what does it have to do with "Pakistanis"?

Since you decided to frame this debate from the perspective of Pakistanis, I decided to add the Indian perspective too, and pointed out a simple fact that a match-fixer, who was also once Indian captain and banned for life by the BCCI for match-fixing, was later elected to the Parliament. Do you think the Indian people forgave him?

 

[Devadwal]

Your reply was a troll worthy reply and it got a troll worthy response. Whatever your opinion may be on the matter what does it have to do with "Pakistanis"?

Since you decided to frame this debate from the perspective of Pakistanis, I decided to add the Indian perspective too, and pointed out a simple fact that a match-fixer, who was also once captain of the Indian team and banned for life by the BCCI, was elected to the Parliament. Do you think the Indian people forgave him?

Yes asking a sane question is trolling because its exposed the hypocrisy.

I give a damn about Azhar and never talked about him anywhere or respect the fixer. I didn't chose him the membar of parliament.

Nvm keep supporting the fixer or anyone you wanted to support.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yes asking a sane question is trolling because its exposed the hypocrisy.

I give a damn about Azhar and never talked about him anywhere or respect the fixer. I didn't chose him the membar of parliament.

Nvm keep supporting the fixer or anyone you wanted to support.

Oh so you're okay, taking shots at Pakistani people? but when someone takes shots at Indian people you get defensive? Talk about.....double standards


It was my opinion, there was no need for you to correlate it with all "Pakistanis." All Pakistanis don't think the same way, just as all Indians don't think the same way.

 

[Justcrazy]

How can they takes when pakistan fan's are openly supporting fixer in the team.

Look either you allow Salman Butt to play after the ban was over , or not even allow Amir.
Treatment would have been same for both individuals.

Fans views should not matter , when making such judgments.

For me , Match fixing is a serious crime , its like betraying your country , we all know what are laws against people who act against there countries.

 

[Justcrazy]

Oh so you're okay, taking shots at Pakistani people? but when someone takes shots at Indian people you get defensive? Talk about.....double standards


It was my opinion, there was no need for you to correlate it with all "Pakistanis." All Pakistanis don't think the same way, just as all Indians don't think the same way.

I do not think anyone in India who was related to fixing was allowed to play again.

 

[Devadwal]

Look either you allow Salman Butt to play after the ban was over , or not even allow Amir.
Treatment would have been same for both individuals.

Fans views should not matter , when making such judgments.

For me , Match fixing is a serious crime , its like betraying your country , we all know what are laws against people who act against there countries.

Agreed

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I do not think anyone in India who was related to fixing was allowed to play again.

If you think that electing someone involved in match-fixing as a public official is not as as bad, if not worse, then I can only laugh.

 

[ads101]

Pakistan should have taken strong action against 90s stars as well. That could have been a deterrent.

Thats why I’m so against fixing. If you don’t punish the current fixers properly you lose future talent to fixing as a result. If we had punished those in the 90s we wouldn’t have lost butt, Amir, asif. Maybe if the trio had received life bans we wouldn’t have lost Sharjeel, kaneria, Jamshed, Latif etc to fixing. It’s just an ongoing cycle. But we just think short term.

Other countries get this, but for some reason Pakistan has always been lenient. A lot of English pundits didn’t care Amir was let back after ban. Because it doesn’t affect their cricketing structure. If Amir was English? No way would he have played international cricket again. Countries are harsh on fixing to protect their own country from fixing. It’s not seeking out the banning of other countries players which is what they want. Same with Kaneria, England was so angry and Kaneria for recruiting fixers in their country they demanded a life ban.

I actually don’t even care about purely the punishment, I have forgiven the fixers. However the impact it has on the future generations letting them back into the fold isn’t worth it. I even don’t care what fixers do after their cricketing career be it pundit or whatever. I’m for second chances. But we have to have a lifetime ban on fixers representing internationals (at the very least) to have a proper deterrent to prevent future fixing. The ban of serve 5 years (or even 2.5 years with Sharjeel) and then you can come back to international cricket is a risk too many players will take, it’s not a strong enough deterrent.

 

[Justcrazy]

Thats why I’m so against fixing. If you don’t punish the current fixers properly you lose future talent to fixing as a result. If we had punished those in the 90s we wouldn’t have lost butt, Amir, asif. Maybe if the trio had received life bans we wouldn’t have lost Sharjeel, kaneria, Jamshed, Latif etc to fixing. It’s just an ongoing cycle. But we just think short term.

Other countries get this, but for some reason Pakistan has always been lenient. A lot of English pundits didn’t care Amir was let back after ban. Because it doesn’t affect their cricketing structure. If Amir was English? No way would he have played international cricket again. Countries are harsh on fixing to protect their own country from fixing. It’s not seeking out the banning of other countries players which is what they want. Same with Kaneria, England was so angry and Kaneria for recruiting fixers in their country they demanded a life ban.

I actually don’t even care about purely the punishment, I have forgiven the fixers. However the impact it has on the future generations letting them back into the fold isn’t worth it. I even don’t care what fixers do after their cricketing career be it pundit or whatever. I’m for second chances. But we have to have a lifetime ban on fixers representing internationals (at the very least) to have a proper deterrent to prevent future fixing. The ban of serve 5 years (or even 2.5 years with Sharjeel) and then you can come back to international cricket is a risk too many players will take, it’s not a strong enough deterrent.

I agree punishments should be strong enough to act as deterrent. Also , If PCB had punished big names , it would have been a much bigger impact.

 

[Justcrazy]

If you think that electing someone involved in match-fixing as a public official is not as as bad, if not worse, then I can only laugh.

Both are two different things.

In India there are several criminals who are contesting elections even in jails .
First of all Azhar was acquitted by court , so you cannot stop him from holding any office.

But BCCI did not allow any person involved in match fixing to play again in International match.

 

[RidiculousMan]

This Fiixsar doing podcast from PCB official, disgusting

I'm happy he is given a 2nd chance.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Both are two different things.

In India there are several criminals who are contesting elections even in jails .
First of all Azhar was acquitted by court , so you cannot stop him from holding any office.

But BCCI did not allow any person involved in match fixing to play again in International match.

So let me get this straight, you're not okay with a criminal playing cricket, but you are okay with a criminal being responsible for decisions that may potentially affect thousands of people? You have an interesting moral compass.

 

[IMMY69]

So let me get this straight, you're not okay with a criminal playing cricket, but you are okay with a criminal being responsible for decisions that may potentially affect thousands of people? You have an interesting moral compass.

Your posts have been so succinct and make complete sense that it really baffles me that some of these posters are even trying to argue...

More of a reflection on them and I doubt you'll make them see sense

 

[ads101]

So let me get this straight, you're not okay with a criminal playing cricket, but you are okay with a criminal being responsible for decisions that may potentially affect thousands of people? You have an interesting moral compass.

India and other countries do not ban cricketers from playing due to morality. People are given second chances in life, especially if it’s a different field. A lot of countries allow people to become politicians with a criminal record. Azharuddin’s case is even more complicated, he has been able to fight his ban legally in court and get it overturned due to lack of evidence. Our trio had greater evidence, and an admission of guilt. A person who fixed is very unlikely to fix again given the punishment they received. There’s no way the trio would dare fix again and risk the same treatment again, it’s really an awful experience. What’s more all eyes will be on them if they try to fix again. More likely someone who has never fixed yet is likely to fix than a repeat fixer. And if I was a corrupt bookmaker, I’m not exactly going back to the caught fixer to fix again, you’re going to target new people.

It is done as a deterrent for other cricketers to prevent future fixing. If you tell a cricketer they can have this amount of money, and the risk is a 2 and a half year ban (which is what Sharjeel got) some cricketers are going to realistically take that risk. Especially when the chance of getting caught isn’t too high. Some might make more in fixing than the span of playing 2 and a half years especially if they’re not international starters. Life ban on their whole career, the amount of cricketers that will take the risk is far smaller. Especially not an 18 year old like Amir was.

It is all to do with deterrent.