Mashal Khan lynching: Shooter Imran Ali sentenced to death, 5 given 25 years in jail [Update #280]

[Third Man]

My family (minus my father) and one extremely close friend know. At some point you have to tell someone because it starts eating at you if you keep it to yourself. In the US it should be even easier because you wouldn't have to worry about your safety or any of that stuff. Life definitely won't be the same again but its worth it because the longer you keep it to yourself, the more isolated you feel and I say from experience that it can drive you crazy pretending to be something you're not day in and day out.

I feel you bro. I've been through all this. Luckily I've found a group of like minded friends who share my beliefs and we gather from time to time to keep our sanity somewhat.

 

[DW44]

I feel you bro. I've been through all this. Luckily I've found a group of like minded friends who share my beliefs and we gather from time to time to keep our sanity somewhat.

In Peshawar? My entire extended family on both parents' sides lives there and this is something I wouldn't even share with them let alone friends. I know what you mean though and I have my own coping mechanisms just like every person in such a position in Pakistan does because otherwise you just go insane. In the past there was cyberspace where we had a decent sized community of atheists and agnostics who used to meet from time to time and provided a very good support structure for fellow atheists/agnostics in need but all of that was reduced to nothing when the cyber crime law was passed and the abduction of the bloggers earlier in the year along with the much less publicized abductions of more bloggers subsequently completely shut off whatever space we had on the internet too. I have literally had to shut down my social media accounts because some of the people abducted in the second round had a lower profile than me and if they could get picked up, so could I.

 

[Madplayer]

In Peshawar? My entire extended family on both parents' sides lives there and this is something I wouldn't even share with them let alone friends. I know what you mean though and I have my own coping mechanisms just like every person in such a position in Pakistan does because otherwise you just go insane. In the past there was cyberspace where we had a decent sized community of atheists and agnostics who used to meet from time to time and provided a very good support structure for fellow atheists/agnostics in need but all of that was reduced to nothing when the cyber crime law was passed and the abduction of the bloggers earlier in the year along with the much less publicized abductions of more bloggers subsequently completely shut off whatever space we had on the internet too. I have literally had to shut down my social media accounts because some of the people abducted in the second round had a lower profile than me and if they could get picked up, so could I.

This is really scary. Nothing is more important than your life. The world has come to a point where you never know what can offend other people to the level of insanity. You write something online and Next thing you know somebody is knocking on your door to teach you a lesson. There was a time when we joked about religion quite openly and everyone joined in and had a laugh. sometimes the elders would smile and tell us that we shouldnt do it. That was the most anyone would do. Today people get offended over petty issues..its almost like you cant say anything without offending someone or the other.

 

[DW44]

This is really scary. Nothing is more important than your life. The world has come to a point where you never know what can offend other people to the level of insanity. You write something online and Next thing you know somebody is knocking on your door to teach you a lesson. There was a time when we joked about religion quite openly and everyone joined in and had a laugh. sometimes the elders would smile and tell us that we shouldnt do it. That was the most anyone would do. Today people get offended over petty issues..its almost like you cant say anything without offending someone or the other.

There's a facebook group here that has about 100'000 members(for comparison the largest atheist facebook group from Pakistan had 2000 members at it's peak) that has an entire army of hackers at their disposal and they're dedicated to identifying atheists and blasphemers on the internet and making their details public, including sharing them with the authorities. At one point, they actually had a guy(a Pakistani) attacked in Malaysia, in his home no less in front of his wife and kids, and circulated videos of the attack on their page as a rousing success.

 

[Moiza]

And people stood by and watched?

Where was the security?

No blame on the people who stood by and watched and on the security personnel. Anyone who would've sympathized with Mashal at that point in time would have died the same death. These religious folk of Pakistan are extremely dangerous and lack the logic centre of the brain.

 

[JaDed]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] Hindu right wing are defn propagating violence in India and at times against rationalist but believe me I can openly be an atheist here(I'm not),degrade superstition/organized religion.

Many pages in fb from sarcasm society to Indian atheists are openly atheist.And yes it was much easier to be an atheist/rationalist before but this third world region sadly has taken a U turn atleast in rural areas.

 

[DW44]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] Hindu right wing are defn propagating violence in India and at times against rationalist but believe me I can openly be an atheist here(I'm not),degrade superstition/organized religion.

Many pages in fb from sarcasm society to Indian atheists are openly atheist.And yes it was much easier to be an atheist/rationalist before but this third world region sadly has taken a U turn atleast in rural areas.

That's because their ire is directed more at Muslims than at atheists. That said, while I don't know much about the dynamics of Indian society, a fellow poster from there recently stated here that West Bengal and the South are the only places where an openly atheist ex-Hindu is completely safe. Not sure if that's the case but either way, the difference between the Hindu right and Muslim right here is one of kind, not degree.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

There's a facebook group here that has about 100'000 members(for comparison the largest atheist facebook group from Pakistan had 2000 members at it's peak) that has an entire army of hackers at their disposal and they're dedicated to identifying atheists and blasphemers on the internet and making their details public, including sharing them with the authorities. At one point, they actually had a guy(a Pakistani) attacked in Malaysia, in his home no less in front of his wife and kids, and circulated videos of the attack on their page as a rousing success.

Wow...just wow.

But then I am not surprised by this thread's news at all.

If a nation makes draconian laws, they have to face the consequences.

Too bad its always the innocents who pay the price.

I see Pakistan falling down this slippery slope with no end in sight.

Either they turn secular (or atleast remove all such crazy laws and have strict punishments for offenders) or watch the nation go up in flames.

 

[Moiza]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73layvqQTI8

Interview of Mashal's father

I request everyone to listen to this. I could never imagine such calmness from a father who just lost his son. The things he said are very true. Very dark times for Pakistan ahead.

I hope PTI shows that they are different from the rest and bring all those involved to justice, which would be a death sentence for everyone involved.

 

[Third Man]

In Peshawar? My entire extended family on both parents' sides lives there and this is something I wouldn't even share with them let alone friends. I know what you mean though and I have my own coping mechanisms just like every person in such a position in Pakistan does because otherwise you just go insane. In the past there was cyberspace where we had a decent sized community of atheists and agnostics who used to meet from time to time and provided a very good support structure for fellow atheists/agnostics in need but all of that was reduced to nothing when the cyber crime law was passed and the abduction of the bloggers earlier in the year along with the much less publicized abductions of more bloggers subsequently completely shut off whatever space we had on the internet too. I have literally had to shut down my social media accounts because some of the people abducted in the second round had a lower profile than me and if they could get picked up, so could I.

I'm actually from Charsadda. Some of the friends I refer to are from here, others from Peshawar, Chitral, Waziristan. I can't share my beliefs with my family either but I've been lucky to find these friends with whom I can talk freely about such things. You're right about the fb stuff. I used to be be active in some groups of the sort you mention but those are now closed for reasons you stated.

What you said about bloggers being abducted is scary. I think I'll have to dig into my activity log to delete some of the comments I might have made with my real name.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

I am very opposed to Blasphemy laws but seems like practically speaking Blasphemy laws can't be touched in Pakistan . The people of Pakistan seem to be very sensitive and emotional when it comes to this subject .
So practically speaking instead of scraping teh law we should aim to make it mush more difficult to prosecute someone under teh law. We can do the following :

A law that makes its really difficult to prosecute for Blasphemy , Make the burden of proof much higher than just hearsay and strict punishment for those who falsely accuse other of Blasphemy or those who take law in their own hands .

We can get the important Islamic scholars/Mullahs on board and have them justify these new laws through their interpretation of the Blasphemy laws.

We should also have a separate department in the justice system that can hear these cases and provide swift justice. It should be made a condition that if the alleged person is deemed innocent than the party falsely claiming Blasphemy should be punished in all cases.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Are you actually this thick or just putting on an act? By now it has been firmly established that you don't know the first thing about Pakistan, whether it's the state or the society, so I don't see why you keep inserting yourself in the middle of exchanges between actual Pakistanis who know what the hell they're talking about. You can't forget religion in Pakistan and yes the state absolutely does ask about your religious beliefs, not to mention society that shoves religion in your face all day long every day of the week. This is something several Pakistan based posters have repeatedly told you over the years but apparently you're an authority on Pakistan and these people who actually live in this Islamofascist state don't know what they're talking about.

Pakistan's problems boil down to pathetic law and order but that takes nothing away from the fact that Pakistani laws are pretty pathetic to begin with and that's primarily on account of their Islamic roots.

You call Pakistan an Islamofascist state and at the same time claim to have the superiour knowledge of Pakistan. It's actually you that are thick if you believe your own nonsense.

You divert every other thread , looking for attention. This thread is about the incident not about you. Yes your life is at risk, you wear a fake mask when going out, your house if bugged, extremists have put up wanted posters all over Islamabad for you and every day you live, is a surprise. We've heard it all , stop boring people with the same old stories and stop seeking attention.

 

[waqar goraya]

I am quoting a very religious Quaid-e-Azam university scholar/professor here.

Our job as Muslims is not send people to Hell by killing them, but to send them to Heaven by making Dawa to them in the BEST of all possible ways, by returning hate with LOVE and COMPASSION. The Prophet himself was consoled by ALLAH -- WIll you KILL yourself with Sorrow if they (the Kuffar) do not accept the guidance - The prophet was so concerned about the fate of the disbelievers that his heart was full of pain for them. Are we following HIS footsteps or the footsteps of Abu Jahl?

If you kill one man, it is as if you have killed the whole world. Islam has a system, which is called the Shari'a, this is the legal code of Islam. Muslims follow the Sharia, not their emotions

 

[DW44]

You call Pakistan an Islamofascist state and at the same time claim to have the superiour knowledge of Pakistan. It's actually you that are thick if you believe your own nonsense.

You divert every other thread , looking for attention. This thread is about the incident not about you. Yes your life is at risk, you wear a fake mask when going out, your house if bugged, extremists have put up wanted posters all over Islamabad for you and every day you live, is a surprise. We've heard it all , stop boring people with the same old stories and stop seeking attention.

I don't see anyone else complaining, I just see several other people sharing similar stories, all of which are relevant to the topic of this thread and most of which rarely if ever get discussed here. If it bothers you so much and the idea of people who reject your religious beliefs offends you so much, just do what I do with the likes of you which is to pay no heed and get on with your life. I don't come to your "poor muslim got punched threads" and accuse you of playing victim because I could care less about your poor muslims in the west sob stories, the same way whatever's been discussed in this thread so far doesn't concern you and in any case you lack even the most rudimentary knowledge to be useful in a discussion concerning Pakistan's social issues so I don't see why you insist on inserting yourself in a discussion you have no business being a part of and one no one asked for your input on.

 

[Muhammad10]

Mardan university takes action against victims; launches probe into 'blasphemous activity'

In a bizarre move, Abdul Wali Khan University, Mardan (AWKUM) has decided to probe three students for alleged "blasphemous activity", a notification posted to their website said Friday.

Of the three students named in the notification, one was killed and another severely injured after being brutally assaulted by an enraged mob a day earlier.

The university's notification on a probe into 'blasphemous activities' allegedly committed by three students.

The notification, dated April 13, did not mention any details of the incident or a condemnation of the student's killing, even though the university's provost, Fayyaz Ali Shah, said it had been issued after the lynching.

"I [the assistant registrar] am directed to notify that ... [an] Inquiry Committee has been constituted to probe into the matter of blasphemous activities carried [out] by [three] students of Department of Journalism," the notification read.

"Further, the mentioned students are hereby rusticated and their entry into the premises of the University (all campuses) is banned until further orders," it added.

When asked why the school administration had also rusticated the deceased student, Shah said: "it is a clerical error which is being revised".

Horrific attack
23-year-old AWKUM student Mashal had been killed and another student, Abdullah, seriously injured a day earlier by a vigilante mob for allegedly "publishing blasphemous content online", local police had said Thursday.

No case had been filed against the two students prior to the incident and police had not been investigating the two on blasphemy charges.

The mob instead seems to have been incited by rumours circulating among the university's student body.

An eyewitness said the mob had first surrounded Abdullah and forced him to recite verses from the Holy Quran, then proceeded to beat him bloody.

The police, when alerted, reached the site of the incident and rescued Abdullah, after which the mob turned on Mashal, who was in his hostel at the time, the eyewitness said.

Mashal was first shot, then beaten with wooden planks till he succumbed to his injuries. The mob had also wanted to burn his body before police intervened, a senior police official had said.

The incident had occurred within the university premises.

The campus was shut down indefinitely and its hostels vacated to avoid a further escalation of violence.

One of Mashal's teachers later told Reuters that he was a passionate and critical student.

“He was brilliant and inquisitive, always complaining about the political system of the country, but I never heard him saying anything controversial against the religion,” the teacher said.

Funeral prayers for Mashal were offered early Friday in Kalu Khan, Swabi District, where he was laid to rest.

'Police unable to control the situation'
Students had said police was alerted when the incident happened and was present on campus at the time.

A university administration official confirmed that over 20 police officers had arrived at the scene after being summoned for help, but were unable to control the situation because of the number of students involved.

When asked why they didn't intervene, police said there were "too many people" in the mob for them to take on.

However, at least 45 people had been arrested in connection with the incident by Thursday evening.

A First Information Report (FIR) was registered by police on Friday in the Sheikh Maltoon police station against 20 suspects, eight of whom had been arrested.

The suspects were identified through video footage of the incident. Police had formed three teams to arrest the remaining suspects.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1326944/m...tims-launches-probe-into-blasphemous-activity

 

[KingKhanWC]

I don't see anyone else complaining, I just see several other people sharing similar stories, all of which are relevant to the topic of this thread and most of which rarely if ever get discussed here. If it bothers you so much and the idea of people who reject your religious beliefs offends you so much, just do what I do with the likes of you which is to pay no heed and get on with your life. I don't come to your "poor muslim got punched threads" and accuse you of playing victim because I could care less about your poor muslims in the west sob stories, the same way whatever's been discussed in this thread so far doesn't concern you and in any case you lack even the most rudimentary knowledge to be useful in a discussion concerning Pakistan's social issues so I don't see why you insist on inserting yourself in a discussion you have no business being a part of and one no one asked for your input on.

I don't divert topics towards myself and I've never played the victim role, nobody has as much as you.

You called Pakistan an Islamofacist state. How about you start a new thread, explain what Islamofacism, prove this exists and prove this is Pakistan. You can also add this Islamofacism is keep you up at night. We are very different, I have no problem sleeping.

 

[DW44]

I don't divert topics towards myself and I've never played the victim role, nobody has as much as you.

If you bothered to actually read through the thread, you'd notice that any mentions of my personal circumstances are in response to questions from other posters and even then most are relevant to the issue in the OP.

You called Pakistan an Islamofacist state. How about you start a new thread, explain what Islamofacism, prove this exists and prove this is Pakistan. You can also add this Islamofacism is keep you up at night. We are very different, I have no problem sleeping.

Read the post right before yours. That's what Islamofascism is.

 

[Major]

And people stood by and watched?

Where was the security?

Security? Salman taseers own security personal was the one who killed him

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Whoever kills a person, it is as tho he has killed all mankind & whoever saves a life, it is as tho he had saved all mankind: Quran <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Mardan?src=hash">#Mardan</a></p>— Shoaib Malik (@realshoaibmalik) <a href="https://twitter.com/realshoaibmalik/status/853007724346568704">April 14, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Major]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Whoever kills a person, it is as tho he has killed all mankind & whoever saves a life, it is as tho he had saved all mankind: Quran <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Mardan?src=hash">#Mardan</a></p>— Shoaib Malik (@realshoaibmalik) <a href="https://twitter.com/realshoaibmalik/status/853007724346568704">April 14, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

good stuff from Shoaib Malik for speaking up this much atleast.


need more personalities to condemn this and get the govt to act against the involved.

 

[confused_amoeba]

Sad times for Pakistan, sad times for humanity.

Mohammad Hanif wrote a poignant article in BBC Urdu on this tragedy and the line that stood out to me the most was and I am paraphrasing in English

"If the problem with our nation is illiteracy as has been told to us by wise men through the generations, than salute to the millions of children who have never entered a classroom in their lives, maybe they are the ones who will save this country"

 

[Nostalgic]

You'd think University is the last place where you would see this barbaric behaviour. And this to a well rated University.

Can someone tell me how much has changed in Pakistan from 70s and 80s ? What happened ? and how did it happen ?

[MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] is probably the best person to answer this question.

A debate about what changed overall from the 70s to now would be too all-encompassing. Limiting it to educational institutes, several things spring to mind. The introduction of weaponry on campuses for one, which started in the 70s but really took off during the Soviet-Afghan war. The culprit for that has to be one Hussain Haqqani, these days persona non grata, back then Jamiat Nazim at Karachi University. Naturally, the likes of Jamiat were more likely to procure weaponry because the people who were selling it were more inclined to sell it to their ideological cohorts.

The clampdown on the vibrant student bodies is another. Talk to your family elders and you'll be surprised at just how engaged they had been in their day. They weren't the stereotypical student leader thugs that hold campuses in thrall these days. They were students, who participated in student politics. Once the bodies were done away with, the only people to engage in politics were those who didn't mind indulging in activities that were proscribed. That's where the Jamiat thugs i.e. Jamaati ghundas really came to the fore.

The vise grip that Jamiat developed is hard to overemphasize, or the impact that has had on the psyche of the average student in your average government-run university. There's hardly a campus that has been spared this, and the tales of their thuggery are legion, some of which I have related on other threads. Some of it is down to how the Jamiat boys are far more ideologically-trained than the more opportunistic thugs the other parties attract, some of it because for obvious reasons, the political environment in the 80's suited them, but the fact remains that they achieved political supremacy over campuses in that decade.

Last but not least, university students arrive on campus from schools and colleges, where they've been taught the curriculum we've talked about often enough, the curriculum penned by Jamaatias at Zia's behest, which hasn't really changed after Zia croaked. You put someone with that "educational" background in an environment where the Jamaatias run amok, and this is what you get.

 

[confused_amoeba]

Jamaatis are a "nasoor" on our country. I think this word is especially apt for them.

I should say that the mob culture is not just restricted to them. I have seen myself a mob of people from all walks of life and affiliations, beating a poor man silly right outside a mosque on suspicion for stealing shoes. I just came out of a tuition center and saw another student who studied their with me, jump right in without asking any questions to give a slap and a kick to that poor guy himself as if its going to earn him sawab.

Our society is full of pent up anger and frustration and just love beating people who cannot defend themselves, especially when it comes to doing it in the name of religion.

 

[Moiza]

Why is there a judicial commission made to investigate the details of the case, the main point being if Mashal actually committed blasphemy? What if he did? Will the attackers get away then?

I thought this was a shut case irrespective of whether blasphemy was committed or not, an ordinary citizen is not supposed to take law into his own hands.

The funniest thing is seeing the Muslims disassociating themselves from the attackers and claiming they are not Muslims. Talibans are not Muslims, isis are not Muslims, Iranis are not Muslims, suicide bombers are not Muslims, etc, tou bhai Muslim reh kon gaya?

 

[DW44]

Imam at Swabi mosque refused to read Mashal's last rites: locals

At Mashal Khan's funeral, the imam at the local mosque refused to read the last rites, according to Swabi resident Salman Ahmed. A technician who was asked to do so in the cleric's place was confronted by several people afterwards.

Mashal has since been buried, but his ransacked university hostel room still has posters of Karl Marx and Che Guevara still hanging on the walls, along with scribbled quotes including one that reads: “Be curious, crazy and mad.”

The day before his death, a heated debate over religion with fellow students broke out at the dorm and led to people accusing Mashal of blasphemy against Islam. That attracted a crowd that grew to several hundred people, according to witnesses.

The mob kicked in the door, dragged Mashal from his room and beat him to death, witnesses and police said.


Crowd gathered as Mashal is beaten to death. — DawnNews
Mashal's death is the latest violence linked to accusations of blasphemy in Pakistan.

Those who knew Mashal described him as an intellectually curious student who openly professed devotion to Islam but asked many questions.

“Whatever he had to say, he would say it openly, but he didn't understand the environment he was living in,” said one of Mashal's teachers at Abdul Wali Khan University, who declined to be named for fear of retribution.

Aziz ur Rehman, a caretaker at the hostel who witnessed Mashal's debate with his fellow students, said he brought up arcane subjects.

Crimes related to blasphemy are a serious offence in the country and penalties range from small fines to the death sentence.

At least 65 people have been murdered over blasphemy allegations since 1990, according to figures from a Center for Research and Security Studies report and local media, and dozens more convicted of the crime are currently on death row in local jails.

In March, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif issued an order for the removal of blasphemous content online, and said anyone who posted such content should face “strict punishment under the law”.

'Police could have saved Mashal's life'
Police say they have arrested 20 suspects involved in Mashal's murder and have found no evidence to substantiate blasphemy allegations.

Rehman, the caretaker, said Mashal was alive when the police arrived, but that they did not approach the hostel until it was too late.

“They could have easily saved his life but they stood away from the mob ... I heard one officer say it's good that they sent this non-believer to hell,” he said.

Mardan police chief Mohammad Alam Shinwari denied the allegation that officers did not do enough to save Mashal.

“When we entered the campus, he had already been killed and the mob was trying to burn his body,” he said.

In Mashal's home town of Swabi, around 60km south of Mardan, his father, Iqbal Shaer, said the accusations of blasphemy were unfounded. “First they killed my son and now they are adding salt to our wounds,” he told Reuters.

Shaer, who runs a small business selling biscuits and chocolates to local retailers, said he had always been a lover of poetry and literature and encouraged his children to express themselves and appreciate the arts.

He added: “My wife told me this morning that she spent her life taking care of her son, but those who killed him have wasted that long struggle.”

Still not fascism? The freaking police stood there and actually expressed joy that the blasphemer was being sent to hell instead of trying to prevent a murder from happening. This is Zia's Pakistan and TTPTI-JI's KPK and the police is as 'state' as it gets. Still not Islamofascism? Would it still not be that when the probe in the blasphemy allegations is ongoing while the murderers walk free because they're JI?

 

[kabbirann]

3 to 4 thousand students-the world is going crazy.
Always thought hyper-religiosty was another form of mental illness.
RIP to the young man.

 

[Moiza]

"Speaker per elaan hua k 'Falan shakhs ne Toheen-e-Risalat kardi hai isy jahanum wasil karne k liye foran pohancho'. Yeh suntey hi doodh mei milawat karne wala Bhola Gujjar, Mirchon mei pissi hui eintein dalne wala ilam Deen Pansari, Sahab ko rishwat pohanchaney wala Babu Chaprasi, sari raat porn filmei dekh kar abhi abhi sone wala nojawan Sunny Prince, Dhanda karne wala Saaqa aur Khotey ka gosht bechney wala Majha Qasai baghair koi saboot mangay gustakh ko jahanum wasil karne dhorr parey!!!"

Truer words regarding the state of nation have not been said.

 

[Hamza_]

"Speaker per elaan hua k 'Falan shakhs ne Toheen-e-Risalat kardi hai isy jahanum wasil karne k liye foran pohancho'. Yeh suntey hi doodh mei milawat karne wala Bhola Gujjar, Mirchon mei pissi hui eintein dalne wala ilam Deen Pansari, Sahab ko rishwat pohanchaney wala Babu Chaprasi, sari raat porn filmei dekh kar abhi abhi sone wala nojawan Sunny Prince, Dhanda karne wala Saaqa aur Khotey ka gosht bechney wala Majha Qasai baghair koi saboot mangay gustakh ko jahanum wasil karne dhorr parey!!!"

Truer words regarding the state of nation have not been said.

This is deep.

 

[waqar goraya]

Imam at Swabi mosque refused to read Mashal's last rites: locals



Still not fascism? The freaking police stood there and actually expressed joy that the blasphemer was being sent to hell instead of trying to prevent a murder from happening. This is Zia's Pakistan and TTPTI-JI's KPK and the police is as 'state' as it gets. Still not Islamofascism? Would it still not be that when the probe in the blasphemy allegations is ongoing while the murderers walk free because they're JI?

And that one person makes the whole police department fascist, extremists and fundamentalists? If i remember the initial report correctly, the second student was saved because of Police presence.
Mashal died because of gun wound and generally Police don't enter universities with fire arms.

This extreme mindset pervades across different sections of society, literate or illiterate , affluent or poor. and police as well could have a few extreme mindset but generally they are not very religious over all.

Don't confuse professional ineptness and incompetency with fundamentalism or fascism.

 

[Moiza]

This is deep.

The language used isn't great but it perfectly describes the condition of "Muslims" now a days.

 

[DW44]

And that one person makes the whole police department fascist, extremists and fundamentalists? If i remember the initial report correctly, the second student was saved because of Police presence.
Mashal died because of gun wound and generally Police don't enter universities with fire arms.

This extreme mindset pervades across different sections of society, literate or illiterate , affluent or poor. and police as well could have a few extreme mindset but generally they are not very religious over all.

Don't confuse professional ineptness and incompetency with fundamentalism or fascism.

Come on, you and I both know it's not just the one person and any large enough group of people in Pakistan drawn from the general public is more likely than not to be fairly extremist on average. Even if the police did save the second guy, it doesn't take away from the fact that they stood by and said let them send him to hell when they could have intervened and saved him but lets not pretend that the fact that this was a religious case and the perpetrators were JI had no bearing on their actions.

I don't see where you get the idea that the police as a whole is not religious at all because ultimately, they come from the same public that they serve, the public that is more religious and fairly extreme at that than the general public in virtually any other country on the planet. There isn't much precedent for this in KPK because this is the first case of both blasphemy and lynching there but we both know what happens to blasphemy accused in Punjab's police stations where such cases are a regular occurences. Accused have been murdered in police stations, a policeman killed a governor for his views on the law(as opposed to actual blasphemy) and I find it hard to believe that KPK cops are less religious than their Punjab counterparts especially considering that a few from my family are in KPK police and what you're saying just doesn't hold up.

There's a difference between professional ineptitude and fundamentalism. Standing by and saying "let them send him to hell" falls squarely in the latter category.

 

[Moiza]

Imam at Swabi mosque refused to read Mashal's last rites: locals



Still not fascism? The freaking police stood there and actually expressed joy that the blasphemer was being sent to hell instead of trying to prevent a murder from happening. This is Zia's Pakistan and TTPTI-JI's KPK and the police is as 'state' as it gets. Still not Islamofascism? Would it still not be that when the probe in the blasphemy allegations is ongoing while the murderers walk free because they're JI?

cant blame the Imam for no offering the last rites. If the country's leaders dont have the guts to stand up to these Islamic extremists then how can you expect an unprotected village imam to offer the rites of someone accused of blasphemy. If tomorrow the allegations are proved true somehow then people will burn the Imam too. He probably did what was in his best interest.

 

[Hamza_]

The language used isn't great but it perfectly describes the condition of "Muslims" now a days.

Mostly pakistani, This is why I said educated or not, Doesn't matter.

 

[DW44]

cant blame the Imam for no offering the last rites. If the country's leaders dont have the guts to stand up to these Islamic extremists then how can you expect an unprotected village imam to offer the rites of someone accused of blasphemy. If tomorrow the allegations are proved true somehow then people will burn the Imam too. He probably did what was in his best interest.

Imams and molvis are some of the least, if not the least vulnerable people in the country when it comes to religious violence and are almost exclusively the perpetrators, not victims so I find it hard to believe that he did so out of concerns for his safety and not because of his personal convictions.

 

[Moiza]

Imams and molvis are some of the least, if not the least vulnerable people in the country when it comes to religious violence and are almost exclusively the perpetrators, not victims so I find it hard to believe that he did so out of concerns for his safety and not because of his personal convictions.

Imams are definitely the least vulnerable as long as they follow the status quo. The Imam probably didnt offer the rites because he considered Mashal as someone who committed blasphemy but if he wanted to offer the rites he wouldn't be able to do so without risking his life.

 

[saeedhk]

A very talented student who topped in college and was offered a scholarship to study engineering in Russia. He had come back to Pakistan and enrolled in a journalism course after completing his degree in engineering from a Russian institution.

A very good writer and a critical person. His poems on life, extremism in Pakistan are truly moving.

 

[fasihulhaq94]

Why is there a judicial commission made to investigate the details of the case, the main point being if Mashal actually committed blasphemy? What if he did? Will the attackers get away then?

I thought this was a shut case irrespective of whether blasphemy was committed or not, an ordinary citizen is not supposed to take law into his own hands.

The funniest thing is seeing the Muslims disassociating themselves from the attackers and claiming they are not Muslims. Talibans are not Muslims, isis are not Muslims, Iranis are not Muslims, suicide bombers are not Muslims, etc, tou bhai Muslim reh kon gaya?

lol so true! on each and every tragedy people go like: this is not islam, this is not pakistan, pakistan ka image, few people cannot represent all etc.

the denial is so strong it is mind boggling.

 

[shaykh]

I don't divert topics towards myself and I've never played the victim role, nobody has as much as you.

You called Pakistan an Islamofacist state. How about you start a new thread, explain what Islamofacism, prove this exists and prove this is Pakistan. You can also add this Islamofacism is keep you up at night. We are very different, I have no problem sleeping.

Gotta ask KKWC...why is your only contribution to this thread about attacking a guy speaking about discrimination in Pakistan...

Also as for the poster you attacked...he was asked questions and he answered them...and what is wrong with getting his view of events as someone who has experienced discrimination...while you simply speak so dogmatically behind a keyboard...

Out of interest what are your views on blasphemy?...should it be a crime or not?...did the mob have a right to do something here or not?...

Also just in general I find your nationalism bizarre...you play the Islam role a lot...and then the nationalist...two contradictory things...last time I checked Islam spoke against nationalism...

Btw when is it ok to criticise Pakistan iyo?...

 

[Syed1]

"Speaker per elaan hua k 'Falan shakhs ne Toheen-e-Risalat kardi hai isy jahanum wasil karne k liye foran pohancho'. Yeh suntey hi doodh mei milawat karne wala Bhola Gujjar, Mirchon mei pissi hui eintein dalne wala ilam Deen Pansari, Sahab ko rishwat pohanchaney wala Babu Chaprasi, sari raat porn filmei dekh kar abhi abhi sone wala nojawan Sunny Prince, Dhanda karne wala Saaqa aur Khotey ka gosht bechney wala Majha Qasai baghair koi saboot mangay gustakh ko jahanum wasil karne dhorr parey!!!"

Truer words regarding the state of nation have not been said.

Well said deen imaan hai nahi quam ka aur chalay aye hain Islam ki izzat ki hifazat karne.

 

[saeedhk]

"Speaker per elaan hua k 'Falan shakhs ne Toheen-e-Risalat kardi hai isy jahanum wasil karne k liye foran pohancho'. Yeh suntey hi doodh mei milawat karne wala Bhola Gujjar, Mirchon mei pissi hui eintein dalne wala ilam Deen Pansari, Sahab ko rishwat pohanchaney wala Babu Chaprasi, sari raat porn filmei dekh kar abhi abhi sone wala nojawan Sunny Prince, Dhanda karne wala Saaqa aur Khotey ka gosht bechney wala Majha Qasai baghair koi saboot mangay gustakh ko jahanum wasil karne dhorr parey!!!"

Truer words regarding the state of nation have not been said.

This.Sums up the hypocrisy of current young Pakistani Muslims.

 

[saeedhk]

Three Mardan university employees arrested after they were captured on camera during the gruesome lynching which brings the total number of university employees arrested to 6.

 

[Specialisttailender]

A debate about what changed overall from the 70s to now would be too all-encompassing. Limiting it to educational institutes, several things spring to mind. The introduction of weaponry on campuses for one, which started in the 70s but really took off during the Soviet-Afghan war. The culprit for that has to be one Hussain Haqqani, these days persona non grata, back then Jamiat Nazim at Karachi University. Naturally, the likes of Jamiat were more likely to procure weaponry because the people who were selling it were more inclined to sell it to their ideological cohorts.

The clampdown on the vibrant student bodies is another. Talk to your family elders and you'll be surprised at just how engaged they had been in their day. They weren't the stereotypical student leader thugs that hold campuses in thrall these days. They were students, who participated in student politics. Once the bodies were done away with, the only people to engage in politics were those who didn't mind indulging in activities that were proscribed. That's where the Jamiat thugs i.e. Jamaati ghundas really came to the fore.

The vise grip that Jamiat developed is hard to overemphasize, or the impact that has had on the psyche of the average student in your average government-run university. There's hardly a campus that has been spared this, and the tales of their thuggery are legion, some of which I have related on other threads. Some of it is down to how the Jamiat boys are far more ideologically-trained than the more opportunistic thugs the other parties attract, some of it because for obvious reasons, the political environment in the 80's suited them, but the fact remains that they achieved political supremacy over campuses in that decade.

Last but not least, university students arrive on campus from schools and colleges, where they've been taught the curriculum we've talked about often enough, the curriculum penned by Jamaatias at Zia's behest, which hasn't really changed after Zia croaked. You put someone with that "educational" background in an environment where the Jamaatias run amok, and this is what you get.

Not surprising there. How did Pakistan become so religious how has things changed from 70s to now ? Is the society as a whole getting better or coming down?

 

[Pakpak]

Not surprising there. How did Pakistan become so religious how has things changed from 70s to now ? Is the society as a whole getting better or coming down?

We have to thank Bhutto for starting and Zia for finishing this ridiculous extremist mess.
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] can say more probably but as a whole the country is very religious compared to even a decade ago. In big cities in certain areas its okay but by and large a lot more conservative people than other way around.

 

[DW44]

Not surprising there. How did Pakistan become so religious how has things changed from 70s to now ? Is the society as a whole getting better or coming down?

How it got here is a very long story and not entirely relevant to this thread. It has however been covered in great detail on various threads here so a quick google search with siteakpassion.net will produce a lot of results. As for which way things are going, they're getting much worse extremely fast. Basically, look at it in terms of generations. I'm an older millenial(mid-late 20s) and in my generation, religious extremism is the rule rather than the exception. In younger millenials, i.e those under 20, extremism is even more prevalent than older millenials. In the generation before ours(those in their 30s-early 40s), the majority have extremist views but there's a sizable minority of moderates and even some liberals. In the generation before that one, moderation was the rule while extremism was the exception.

To give an example of how things have evolved before our very eyes(my go to example for illustrating this phenomenon on this forum), about 11-12 years ago when I was doing my A-Levels, there was a girl in our class who was openly atheist. Today, that girl would be murdered or charged with blasphemy if she was as open about it as she was from 2004-06. Luckily, she got a full ride to Princeton, went to MIT later and has a better life than any of these Jamiat goons could imagine in their wildest dreams.

 

[DW44]

We have to thank Bhutto for starting and Zia for finishing this ridiculous extremist mess.

Liaquat, not Bhutto. Objectives resolution is the where it all started.

 

[Moiza]

They only positive in this shameful incident in the fact that even the most conservative people are condemning the act as opposed to the Qadri case when even a majority of moderates were with him. There are still some fools who support what those goons did but they are a minority considering the trends we have had in the past on religious matters.

This is the first case where I think justice will be served to some, if not to all those involved.

 

[DW44]

They only positive in this shameful incident in the fact that even the most conservative people are condemning the act as opposed to the Qadri case when even a majority of moderates were with him. There are still some fools who support what those goons did but they are a minority considering the trends we have had in the past on religious matters.

This is the first case where I think justice will be served to some, if not to all those involved.

What are people saying on facebook? What is the general tone of comments on ET and Dawn's pages? Is most of the criticism unconditional or is it qualified with statements like "what they did was wrong but they didn't deserve to die"? The last part is important because that is basically code for "hell yeah, whopppeeee yeee haw - but I don't want to be marked as an extremist or apologist".

 

[Hamza_]

They only positive in this shameful incident in the fact that even the most conservative people are condemning the act as opposed to the Qadri case when even a majority of moderates were with him. There are still some fools who support what those goons did but they are a minority considering the trends we have had in the past on religious matters.

This is the first case where I think justice will be served to some, if not to all those involved.

There are still many people supporting the murder on Facebook.

 

[Specialisttailender]

How it got here is a very long story and not entirely relevant to this thread. It has however been covered in great detail on various threads here so a quick google search with siteakpassion.net will produce a lot of results. As for which way things are going, they're getting much worse extremely fast. Basically, look at it in terms of generations. I'm an older millenial(mid-late 20s) and in my generation, religious extremism is the rule rather than the exception. In younger millenials, i.e those under 20, extremism is even more prevalent than older millenials. In the generation before ours(those in their 30s-early 40s), the majority have extremist views but there's a sizable minority of moderates and even some liberals. In the generation before that one, moderation was the rule while extremism was the exception.

To give an example of how things have evolved before our very eyes(my go to example for illustrating this phenomenon on this forum), about 11-12 years ago when I was doing my A-Levels, there was a girl in our class who was openly atheist. Today, that girl would be murdered or charged with blasphemy if she was as open about it as she was from 2004-06. Luckily, she got a full ride to Princeton, went to MIT later and has a better life than any of these Jamiat goons could imagine in their wildest dreams.

That is sad to hear. I always though societies only progressed but then I learned that the societies always progress and regress in a cycle over long period of time. Hopefully better lessons are learned out of this situation.

 

[Moiza]

What are people saying on facebook? What is the general tone of comments on ET and Dawn's pages? Is most of the criticism unconditional or is it qualified with statements like "what they did was wrong but they didn't deserve to die"? The last part is important because that is basically code for "hell yeah, whopppeeee yeee haw - but I don't want to be marked as an extremist or apologist".

90% of the moderates wont even agree that people committing blasphemy should not be killed, no one should be expecting that people will somehow want to eradicate the blasphemy law, it just won't happen.

This time people genuinely disagree with what the mob did as opposed to the qadri incident. I think it is due to the fact that Salman was considered a liberals by our general masses and hence it would be a logical conclusion that he committed blasphemy whereas Mashal comes from a conservative and a poor background, which makes him an unlikely candidate for blasphemy. Whatever the reason may be but this time round a big majority is against what was done.

 

[DW44]

That is sad to hear. I always though societies only progressed but then I learned that the societies always progress and regress in a cycle over long period of time. Hopefully better lessons are learned out of this situation.

Religion is the main factor here. Normally, the trend goes economic progress -> more accessible and higher quality education -> fall in levels of religiosity-> social progress. We messed up because we artificially raised levels of religiosity by forcing it from the top down and handing the education system, which is supposed to kill religion, to the religious right who tailored it to raise levels of religiosity at the expense of academic rigor and social development. Basically, social progress directly coincides with falling levels of religiosity in a given society butlevels of religiosity have been increasing exponentially here and hence the regression.

 

[Moiza]

There are still many people supporting the murder on Facebook.

From a population of 220+ million there will always be people who support such acts but those people are not a majority. When Qadri was killed the comment section of all major news outlets were full of support for him, even when he killed salman taseer many years back the situation was the same but this time almost 95+% of the comments I have come across are condemning what was done. Even a molvi ( IDK the name, saw him on tv) was condemning the act, a thing which has never been done before.

 

[Hamza_]

From a population of 220+ million there will always be people who support such acts but those people are not a majority. When Qadri was killed the comment section of all major news outlets were full of support for him, even when he killed salman taseer many years back the situation was the same but this time almost 95+% of the comments I have come across are condemning what was done. Even a molvi ( IDK the name, saw him on tv) was condemning the act, a thing which has never been done before.

I don't know backgrounds of this law as I'm not religion expert. In first place it is wrong to take up law in your own hands.

But it must be very painful for family and parents, They had invested in their boy, Raised him up, He probably would have been a contributor to economic development of country in some way as he was well educated.

The father and mother suffer alot, I cannot even imagine how it would be like for a father getting through this situation.

23 years of Investment and blown away in few minutes, You see a person as an infant, Then as a kid, A teenager and then a mature person going up, Suddenly this happens will be terrible feeling.

 

[waqar goraya]

Come on, you and I both know it's not just the one person and any large enough group of people in Pakistan drawn from the general public is more likely than not to be fairly extremist on average. Even if the police did save the second guy, it doesn't take away from the fact that they stood by and said let them send him to hell when they could have intervened and saved him but lets not pretend that the fact that this was a religious case and the perpetrators were JI had no bearing on their actions.

I don't see where you get the idea that the police as a whole is not religious at all because ultimately, they come from the same public that they serve, the public that is more religious and fairly extreme at that than the general public in virtually any other country on the planet. There isn't much precedent for this in KPK because this is the first case of both blasphemy and lynching there but we both know what happens to blasphemy accused in Punjab's police stations where such cases are a regular occurences. Accused have been murdered in police stations, a policeman killed a governor for his views on the law(as opposed to actual blasphemy) and I find it hard to believe that KPK cops are less religious than their Punjab counterparts especially considering that a few from my family are in KPK police and what you're saying just doesn't hold up.

There's a difference between professional ineptitude and fundamentalism. Standing by and saying "let them send him to hell" falls squarely in the latter category.

I was saying one man out of those 20 odd on duty.

I personally know a dozen policemen, few of them in close family, And to be honest religious extremists are very few, absolutely non-existent at officer level.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] people like KKWC are nothing but Islamist hypocrites. They are the same people who cry over anti Muslim bigotry in the West and people like Trump.

Or the plight of Muslims in India when a Hindutva extremist does something.

Anytime a Muslim is a victim they are first on the scene to cry and complain.

But when a Muslim is the aggressor and doing the persecuting be it killings like these or oppression of minorities they either dont comment cant even a comment an RIP or a condemnation. Or if they do comment its to start arguments with people like DW44 who is a minority living in Pakistan who is talking about the issues he faces. And telling them to be quiet and stop complaining because they cant see their beloved Pakistans reputation get besmirched and the Islamic extremism and radicalisation that is prevalent in the country be exposed.

Yet if someone did that to him or his ilk when they talk about anti Muslim bigotry they would call them a far right racist or a hindutva extremist.

complain about freedom of speech in the West support blasphemy laws in Muslim countries sums up this perennial victim mentality.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] Pakistan was created on the idea of Muslim Nationalism so for Pakistani Islamists there isnt a real conflict of interest.

 

[Badsha]

lol so true! on each and every tragedy people go like: this is not islam, this is not pakistan, pakistan ka image, few people cannot represent all etc.

the denial is so strong it is mind boggling.

Are you thick? Do you have basic understanding of statistics? Statistically, if this represented mainstream Islam everyone would be dead -- there are a billion of us!

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Shocking and deplorable act in the name of religion.... I hope the Pakistani authorities will go after the culprits with full might and make an example out of them...

 

[gkb101277867]

good stuff from Shoaib Malik for speaking up this much atleast.


need more personalities to condemn this and get the govt to act against the involved.

Very easy to quote a verse out of context like that tbh. What about all the parts that say kill all non-believars?

What about where it says that if you leave the religion of Islam you should be killed?

 

[Belawal2014]

Very easy to quote a verse out of context like that tbh. What about all the parts that say kill all non-believars?

What about where it says that if you leave the religion of Islam you should be killed?

And that bolded part is in which context?

 

[gkb101277867]

And that bolded part is in which context?

I'm just saying that if you start quoting stuff out of context you could also claim that the Quran says kill all unbelievers.

Tbh the apostacy part isn't really something to do with context. It's made clear in Islam that apostates should be killed.

 

[kukkad kamaal]

I'm just saying that if you start quoting stuff out of context you could also claim that the Quran says kill all unbelievers.

Tbh the apostacy part isn't really something to do with context. It's made clear in Islam that apostates should be killed.

Quran says kill all unbelievers?

 

[gkb101277867]

Quran says kill all unbelievers?

There are countless references in the Quran saying kill the non believers

 

[gkb101277867]

The truth is that the war between liberalism and Islamism will ALWAYS exist in Pakistan because liberalism and Islam DO NOT MIX.

For example Islam says that apostates should be killed. There are many people who live in fear because of this (including some in this thread from what I've read). So I ask the Muslims reading this post. Do they believe such people should be killed? And if they say no then they are going against the teachings of Islam.

That is just one example which proves that liberalism and Islamism can't co-exist. There are many other examples.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=74419]Badsha[/MENTION] the PEW Polls expose already what mainstream views are across the Muslim World.

The fact that not every Muslim does stuff like this doesnt mean a high proportion of Muslims especially in Pakistan dont endorse blasphemy killings.

Look at how the masses came out to show their love and support for Mumtaz Qadri it was only one man that did it but millions were right behind him supporting him in the streets and on social media. Same with the murderer of Asad Shah in the U.K. His murderers family home in Pakistan received many visitors praising him for being aashiq e rasool. This has happened with previous blasphemy vigilantes too. They get a cult of heroism built around them. This radical mentality towards anyone who is deemed to commit "blasphemy" is spread across the whole of society not just in Pakistan but many Muslim majority countries.

In America in the early twentieth century in parts of the South lynching of blacks happened now it was only a few people who actually committed these acts but most in society implicitly condoned it or turned a blind eye to it. So when that person would go the courts they would get a lenient sentence by the judges or sometimes not even punished.

These blasphemy killings are endorsed by certain scripture too which the Maulvis use to instill this mentality within people.

Just because people dont support ISIS or Al Qaeda or suicide bombings doesnt mean they dont hold other radical views.

 

[Adil_94]

Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!.
The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
Except for those who (having fled away and then) came back (as Muslims) with repentance before they fall into your power; in that case, know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

This is the full passage regarding the verse Malik posted.

So the punishment for those who commit war against Allah or the Prophet or those who commit corruption in the land these are the punishments listed for them.

And someone who is deemed to have committed blasphemy or open apostasy would be classed as a corrupter.

 

[gkb101277867]

Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!.
The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
Except for those who (having fled away and then) came back (as Muslims) with repentance before they fall into your power; in that case, know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

This is the full passage regarding the verse Malik posted.

So the punishment for those who commit war against Allah or the Prophet or those who commit corruption in the land these are the punishments listed for them.

And someone who is deemed to have committed blasphemy or open apostasy would be classed as a corrupter.

If a muslim decides to become an atheist does Islam say he should be killed? And if the answer is yes then surely it proves that Islamism and liberalism cannot coexist together

 

[mani1]

Whilst there are many muslims that support this kind of barbaric behaviour.

This is not just prevelant in Muslims.

Look at them Christian barbarians such as Milosovich.

He is considered a hero amongst many in the Christian Ummah.

More closer to home Christian Fundo Tony Blair and his Master Bush and there Crusades and Christian battles in which god told them to go to War etc etc

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The truth is that the war between liberalism and Islamism will ALWAYS exist in Pakistan because liberalism and Islam DO NOT MIX.

For example Islam says that apostates should be killed. There are many people who live in fear because of this (including some in this thread from what I've read). So I ask the Muslims reading this post. Do they believe such people should be killed? And if they say no then they are going against the teachings of Islam.

That is just one example which proves that liberalism and Islamism can't co-exist. There are many other examples.

You could say the same thing about liberalism and Christianity, liberalism and Judaism and basically many of the world's religions. The difference is that those religions have been subjugated or adapted over time to modern life so that they are no longer prevalent as a political force. All religious texts are medieval and by today's standards barbaric if taken at face value.

Why do you think there is a new testament? Isn't it because the old one became unpalatable for the more progressive rulers at the time? The challenge for the Islamic world is to curb the religious authority in the same way as was done in the Hindu, Christian and Judaic worlds.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=142303]gkb101277867[/MENTION] According to traditional Sunni Madhabs and Twelver Shia Ja'fari fiqh yes the death sentence is the punishment is prescribed for apostasy. Its classed as one of the Hadd crimes against God. Only amongst certain sects like Ismailis Ahmadis and Quranists is there no death sentence for apostasy.

The madhabs arent compatible with liberalism over many issues.

 

[Pakpak]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] people like KKWC are nothing but Islamist hypocrites. They are the same people who cry over anti Muslim bigotry in the West and people like Trump.

Or the plight of Muslims in India when a Hindutva extremist does something.

Anytime a Muslim is a victim they are first on the scene to cry and complain.

But when a Muslim is the aggressor and doing the persecuting be it killings like these or oppression of minorities they either dont comment cant even a comment an RIP or a condemnation. Or if they do comment its to start arguments with people like DW44 who is a minority living in Pakistan who is talking about the issues he faces. And telling them to be quiet and stop complaining because they cant see their beloved Pakistans reputation get besmirched and the Islamic extremism and radicalisation that is prevalent in the country be exposed.

Yet if someone did that to him or his ilk when they talk about anti Muslim bigotry they would call them a far right racist or a hindutva extremist.

complain about freedom of speech in the West support blasphemy laws in Muslim countries sums up this perennial victim mentality.

He is a massive hypocrite. In a thread where someone posted that an atheist in Pakistan has been sentenced to death for 'blasphemy' his reply, instead of condemnation and outrage was 'what did he say?'. As if any WORDS uttered deserve a death sentence.

Turn the tables and the guy cries about bigotry.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Gotta ask KKWC...why is your only contribution to this thread about attacking a guy speaking about discrimination in Pakistan...

lol. Point out his regular method of turning a topic into his life events is hardly attacking.

Also as for the poster you attacked...he was asked questions and he answered them...and what is wrong with getting his view of events as someone who has experienced discrimination...while you simply speak so dogmatically behind a keyboard...

There are plenty of people in Pakistan who don't pray or believe in God. Unless you go out of your way and shout from the rooftops against religion, nobody will ever know or care.

Out of interest what are your views on blasphemy?...should it be a crime or not?...did the mob have a right to do something here or not?...

What a ridiculous final question. Of course nobody has the right to take the law in their own hands or break the law. I've mentioned my views on blasphemy many times.

Also just in general I find your nationalism bizarre...you play the Islam role a lot...and then the nationalist...two contradictory things...last time I checked Islam spoke against nationalism...

Btw when is it ok to criticise Pakistan iyo?...

lol. I dont play any role. I give my views per the subject. Unlike the poster you are defending , I have no personal agenda here. I criticise Pakistan like many others, I don't understand this daft line of questioning.

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] people like KKWC are nothing but Islamist hypocrites. They are the same people who cry over anti Muslim bigotry in the West and people like Trump.

Or the plight of Muslims in India when a Hindutva extremist does something.

Anytime a Muslim is a victim they are first on the scene to cry and complain.

But when a Muslim is the aggressor and doing the persecuting be it killings like these or oppression of minorities they either dont comment cant even a comment an RIP or a condemnation. Or if they do comment its to start arguments with people like DW44 who is a minority living in Pakistan who is talking about the issues he faces. And telling them to be quiet and stop complaining because they cant see their beloved Pakistans reputation get besmirched and the Islamic extremism and radicalisation that is prevalent in the country be exposed.

Yet if someone did that to him or his ilk when they talk about anti Muslim bigotry they would call them a far right racist or a hindutva extremist.

complain about freedom of speech in the West support blasphemy laws in Muslim countries sums up this perennial victim mentality.

You don't even understand the word Islamist. Care to define it and explain where this word originated from? Where is the historical presence of this term in Islamic tradition? If you weren't ignorant and uneducated you would know the blasphmey law is a British law which was implemented to help stop communal violence. You are just embarrasing yourself with you final statement.

I don't need to condemn something which obviously henious. I did mention the reason why such crimes continue, lack of law and order in Pakistan. You're just coming across as someone who is ashamed of his ethnicity, background and culture. I would suggest you change your name from Adil to Anthony.

 

[Specialisttailender]

Learned a lot, thanks for all your interests.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] i aint ashamed of anything see me on threads when Muslims are being oppressed in Burma and China or wherever i criticise the oppressors just as much then.

im just not a hypocrite like you. Who is a big hypocrite who cries about Muslims being oppressed yet are conspicious by your absence when Muslims are the ones doing the oppressing.

I am against bigotry against Muslims but i also dont turn a blind eye when Muslims are doing the oppressing.

Yes the British created this blasphemy law to maintain communal harmony but why is Pakistan 70 years on still keeping this law when it has created this mentality in the country where anyone who criticises the mullahs views or "deviates from what is acceptable" has a target it on his head. It stunts any real discussions on the role of religion or tenets of the ideology itself.

You didnt come into this thread to even say RIP or condolences because for people like you maybe u disagree with the mob action. But u still believe people who criticise your religious ideology should be sentenced and locked up. Instead of expressing sympathy with the victim. You started just attacking DW44 who was answering questions what its like for someone who criticises Islamists and just Islam in general in Pakistan.

When you thankfully live in a liberal democracy where u can criticise who u want and believe what u want and practice your faith freely without fear of being killed. We know what happens in Muslim countries across the world for people who want to leave their faith openly it isnt a pretty sight.

Imagine if someone like Robert or James on a thread where a Muslim was attacked by some far right thugs in the U.k and they tell you to stop exaggerating about anti Muslim bigotry you wouldnt like it.

Yet u come here just to be the theykeydar of Islam.

when it comes to atheists and non believers Pakistan is one of the worst countries to live in i know quite a few online. So for you to downplay what its like for them is ridiculous.

But then again you have constantly showcased your mentality of always the victim.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Islamists range from the Muslim Brotherhood Jamat e Islami all the way to ISIS and Al Qaeda. They disagree a lot in Methodology and approach but their main goals are to have Muslim states run according to Sharia. Some groups like Hizb ut Tahrir want the whole world run according to Sharia and think Western countries should be Islamised while others think this only applies to Muslim majority states.


MB favour it via the electoral process as do Jamatis now though before Mawdudi saw democracy as shirk. Then u have Islamist Jihadists who support violent ovethrow of "kufr" or "apostate" Muslim regimes to implement their versions of Sharia. Islamism developed in the 19th and 20th centuries as a reaction to western colonialism. A lot of Islamist ideology is inspired by movements like fascism and communism especially in the works of Sayyid Qutb.

Basically anyone who supports Sharia as a model of governance is an Islamist.

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] i aint ashamed of anything see me on threads when Muslims are being oppressed in Burma and China or wherever i criticise the oppressors just as much then.

im just not a hypocrite like you. Who is a big hypocrite who cries about Muslims being oppressed yet are conspicious by your absence when Muslims are the ones doing the oppressing.

I am against bigotry against Muslims but i also dont turn a blind eye when Muslims are doing the oppressing.

I feel you are very ashamed through your posts but this is my opinion having read your posts over time. There are dozens of threads posted on a monthly basis where Muslims are attacked in some sort of way, whether this is by bombs from the air or by radicals who kill in the name of beef. I comment on such thread and I don't always condemn the attack. In fact I hardly condemn an act as often there should be no need to condemn killing as murder is obviously a vile crime. People like yourself who look out for others to condemn an act or to see if someone is consistent is a form of bigotry itself.

Yes the British created this blasphemy law to maintain communal harmony but why is Pakistan 70 years on still keeping this law when it has created this mentality in the country where anyone who criticises the mullahs views or "deviates from what is acceptable" has a target it on his head. It stunts any real discussions on the role of religion or tenets of the ideology itself.

It's called law and order pal. Without a strong criminal justice system from the police to the courts, all laws are lame. If Pakistan implemented the blasphemy law properly, minorities would gain a lot of protection against anyone who is abusing their religion. This guy wasn't murdered because of this law, i't's foolish to even suggest this. He was killed because mob mentality is common place in the sub-continent. It happens in India more regularly and by non-Muslims.

You didnt come into this thread to even say RIP or condolences because for people like you maybe u disagree with the mob action. But u still believe people who criticise your religious ideology should be sentenced and locked up. Instead of expressing sympathy with the victim. You started just attacking DW44 who was answering questions what its like for someone who criticises Islamists and just Islam in general in Pakistan.

I CHALLENGE YOU to prove your claim. Use the search function to find a single post where I have stated what you claim. If you cannot you have just fabricated this to further your arguments.

When you thankfully live in a liberal democracy where u can criticise who u want and believe what u want and practice your faith freely without fear of being killed. We know what happens in Muslim countries across the world for people who want to leave their faith openly it isnt a pretty sight.

I guess antisemitic laws are not something you are aware of.

Imagine if someone like Robert or James on a thread where a Muslim was attacked by some far right thugs in the U.k and they tell you to stop exaggerating about anti Muslim bigotry you wouldn't like it.

There is a difference between reputable news which confirms an incident and a poster on a public forum telling his stories. For all I know he could be trolling , exaggerating or simply making it all up. I doubt you have verified his stories but you're welcome to believe anyone on the internet.

Yet u come here just to be the theykeydar of Islam.

I speak against propaganda which leads to innocent people being butchered, it just happens to be Muslims at the moment who are being killed the most.

when it comes to atheists and non believers Pakistan is one of the worst countries to live in i know quite a few online. So for you to downplay what its like for them is ridiculous.

Online lol. You cannot know if someone is an atheist unless they themselves bring it to the fore. If an atheist abuses religion in the open instead of not worrying about something they don't believe in , this itself will help reduce attacks on them. Ideally nobody should be physically attacked for a belief they hold but a country with no law and order will allow some people to use violence to vent their anger.

Can you show some evidence to prove Pakistan is a hellhole for atheists (no pun intended)?

But then again you have constantly showcased your mentality of always the victim.

4 million Muslims have been killed within the last two decades due to the foreign policy of western nations. So if a Muslim tries to balance out the truth, it's hardly playing the victim. Even if they did, would it not be understandable? Unless you think the 4 million were not victims?

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Islamists range from the Muslim Brotherhood Jamat e Islami all the way to ISIS and Al Qaeda. They disagree a lot in Methodology and approach but their main goals are to have Muslim states run according to Sharia. Some groups like Hizb ut Tahrir want the whole world run according to Sharia and think Western countries should be Islamised while others think this only applies to Muslim majority states.


MB favour it via the electoral process as do Jamatis now though before Mawdudi saw democracy as shirk. Then u have Islamist Jihadists who support violent ovethrow of "kufr" or "apostate" Muslim regimes to implement their versions of Sharia. Islamism developed in the 19th and 20th centuries as a reaction to western colonialism. A lot of Islamist ideology is inspired by movements like fascism and communism especially in the works of Sayyid Qutb.

Basically anyone who supports Sharia as a model of governance is an Islamist.

I didn't ask you to give me the CNN version of the word. I'm well aware.


I'll try again.

Care to define it and explain where this word originated from? Where is the historical presence of this term in Islamic tradition?

 

[in_cutter]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Islamists range from the Muslim Brotherhood Jamat e Islami all the way to ISIS and Al Qaeda. They disagree a lot in Methodology and approach but their main goals are to have Muslim states run according to Sharia. Some groups like Hizb ut Tahrir want the whole world run according to Sharia and think Western countries should be Islamised while others think this only applies to Muslim majority states.


MB favour it via the electoral process as do Jamatis now though before Mawdudi saw democracy as shirk. Then u have Islamist Jihadists who support violent ovethrow of "kufr" or "apostate" Muslim regimes to implement their versions of Sharia. Islamism developed in the 19th and 20th centuries as a reaction to western colonialism. A lot of Islamist ideology is inspired by movements like fascism and communism especially in the works of Sayyid Qutb.

Basically anyone who supports Sharia as a model of governance is an Islamist.

I had never heard of the word Islamist before 9/11. It is a media created phrase.

 

[DW44]

Jibran Nasir absolutely ripping apart the state's policies w.r.t extremism and terrorism and offering a good crash course on how we got here, calling out the clergy on it's hypocrisy among other things. One thing that caught my attention was a claim that the KPK CM instructed an underling to consult with Sipah Sahaba regarding elementary school curricula, a claim he says he's willing to back with documentary evidence including minutes of the meeting in which it was said.