Slog
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anyone on this thread saying what happened wasnt wrong? Or making excuses?
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Contact the PP Team
Mashal Khan lynching: Shooter Imran Ali sentenced to death, 5 given 25 years in jail [Update #280]
- Thread starter Adil_94
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Is this what you are referring to?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial
Holocaust denial, the denial of the systematic genocidal killing of millions of ethnic groups in Europe by Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 1940s, is illegal in 14 European countries.
Of the countries that ban Holocaust denial, some, such as Austria, Germany, Hungary, and Romania, were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust,
Adil_94
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[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] no one will kill you for criticising Zionism or Israel in the U.K or lock u up.
In Pakistan u criticise Islam what happens to people ? Atheists in places like Pakistan have to speak out because religion is everywhere in their life and can be used to oppress them especially with the Mullahs openly spreading their vitriol in society against freedom of religion . so atheists shouldnt complain about religion so they dont get attacked ? that sounds like you are victim blaming. whats next Indian Muslims shouldnt eat Beef to reduce attacks on themselves.
Or people who live in the West shouldnt criticise western foreign policy should be quiet so that they dont get attacked
No one is saying Muslims being killed should be ignored but when people are using Islam to persecute people that shouldnt be brushed under the carpet just because Muslims are being killed.
Again cases of violence against those who are atheist or critics of Islam in Pakistan or even places like Bangladesh are well documented. To be an open atheist in Pakistan is a death sentence if someone wants to criticise religion thats their right your faith should be strong enough that u dont resort to violence. If this mentality that people who criticise Islam or "blaspheme" deserve to be killed wasnt prevalent then u wouldnt get mob attacks like this. When u have people like Nawaz sharif saying blasphemy isnt tolerable then to a populace like Pakistan where mob mentality is common that is just inciting violence. Like Hindutva goons who say beef eating isnt tolerable and then lo and behold some Muslim is beaten for alleged beef eating a few days later.
Muslims are being killed in the MENA partly due to foreign interventions and also because of the spread of religious extremism especially sectarianism. Pakistan has also suffered from this increase in Islamic extremism by spread of extremist propaganda throughout the country in the last 30 years.
.Any society where u give Mullahs political influence its one that doesnt value human rights. If people will carry on increasing religious influence in politics then extremism will remain.
In Pakistan u criticise Islam what happens to people ? Atheists in places like Pakistan have to speak out because religion is everywhere in their life and can be used to oppress them especially with the Mullahs openly spreading their vitriol in society against freedom of religion . so atheists shouldnt complain about religion so they dont get attacked ? that sounds like you are victim blaming. whats next Indian Muslims shouldnt eat Beef to reduce attacks on themselves.
Or people who live in the West shouldnt criticise western foreign policy should be quiet so that they dont get attacked
No one is saying Muslims being killed should be ignored but when people are using Islam to persecute people that shouldnt be brushed under the carpet just because Muslims are being killed.
Again cases of violence against those who are atheist or critics of Islam in Pakistan or even places like Bangladesh are well documented. To be an open atheist in Pakistan is a death sentence if someone wants to criticise religion thats their right your faith should be strong enough that u dont resort to violence. If this mentality that people who criticise Islam or "blaspheme" deserve to be killed wasnt prevalent then u wouldnt get mob attacks like this. When u have people like Nawaz sharif saying blasphemy isnt tolerable then to a populace like Pakistan where mob mentality is common that is just inciting violence. Like Hindutva goons who say beef eating isnt tolerable and then lo and behold some Muslim is beaten for alleged beef eating a few days later.
Muslims are being killed in the MENA partly due to foreign interventions and also because of the spread of religious extremism especially sectarianism. Pakistan has also suffered from this increase in Islamic extremism by spread of extremist propaganda throughout the country in the last 30 years.
.Any society where u give Mullahs political influence its one that doesnt value human rights. If people will carry on increasing religious influence in politics then extremism will remain.
Adil_94
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[MENTION=217]in_cutter[/MENTION] the term was in academic literature before 9/11. Islamist groups have been around since early 1900s but wasnt well known in the mainstream media until.9/11
KingKhanWC
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No it's much worse.
Recently the UK government pretty much stated any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, ie .racist.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38281950
KingKhanWC
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This is not true. You clearly are not up to speed with antisemitic laws. If I was to openly stand in public and state Israel is against Judaism and continue to rant about it in various ways, I would get arrested.
Look if you're going to debate, please respond to my points which I made previously and do some research before writing what you've heard on Sky or Fox News.
Please try to read what I wrote carefully. I didn't justify attacks on athiests because they should shut up but pointed to the lack of law and order. Also there is no need for an atheist to criticise Islam in a 99% Muslim majority country. Esp Pakistan where the real problem is corruption and poor criminal justice system. A lot of atheists are militant (not physical) but in their approach to criticism, they start off mild but then lead to attacks on the Prophet(pbuh). This is will rile up hot head naturlly and this not comparable to eating beef because Indians from all religions eat beef. Heck India exports more beef than most.
Before 911 there was nothing on this level of what you claim Muslims are becoming extremists. All you are doing is regurgitating what is said in the mainstream media. I asked a number of questions and made some points which you have ignored. When you can respond to those , I will go into more details.
Adil_94
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[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] If u say Zionism is racist then no u wont get arrested. Thankfully Ken Livingstone hasnt been locked up yet or George Galloway or Salma Yaqoob. Or even others like Asghar Bukhari there are plenty of anti Israel protesters who say Zionism is racist and colonialist You go to any pro Palestine rally and u see these signs. Or people calling Israel an apartheid state. No one will arrest you for expressing these views. and anti israel criticism is allowed in Papers plenty of articles in the Guardian and independent criticising Israel. If the U.K govt does move to actually criminalise all criticism of Israel then that is no better than Pakistans blasphemy law.
No i am not regurgitating what i hear in the media. Theres plenty books on the history of Islamism and sectarianism and its origins are in the 70s and the spread of petro Islam after the 73 Oil Crisis. To say that extremism never existed before 9/11 is untrue. John Espositos book Islam and Politics and Mohammed Ayoob the many faces of political islam are good books on Islamism. Bassam Taibis Islamism and Islam is good one too. Forget Fox News Islam and Politics together ends up in violations of human rights. Be it freedom of religion , womens rights and minority rights.
There was a long standing Islamist insurgency in Egypt and in Algeria. The first suicide bombings by Islamist groupa started in the 80s by Hezbollah in the and also lets not forget Afghanistan and the emergence of Al Qaeda in the 80s.
even before 9/11 there was the World Trade Centre bombing in 1993 and the bombings of the U.S embassies in Kenya and Tanzania by AQ. 9/11 was what brought this type of.terrorism to the West in a major way but it was around in the Middle East for 20-30 years before that.
For a lot of Hindus someone eating cow or killing a cow for slaughter is not acceptable and BJP are catering to that now if they say India is a Hindu majority so minorities should accept that killing cows hurts our feelings and no one should eat it. is that acceptable ? Just because Pakistani is 99% Muslim doesnt mean an Atheist should be quiet just because it will hurt peoples feelings to see their religion to get criticised.
Atheists are militant in their criticism last time i checked it was religious extremists who were killing minorities in Pakistan not atheists who were engaged in militancy. Some atheists might say some offensive things about the Prophet but most just focus on the negative effect mullahs have on Pakistani society.
Yes Pakistans biggest problem is poverty corruption and religious extremism.
Thats why focusing on blasphemy witchunts and asking Facebook to help is pointless and its just being done by Nawaz to appease Maulvis. Because forget development but lets eliminate a few atheist or liberal bloggers thats what will help Pakistan.
The mentality of the nation is summed up when 20 people turn up to Mashal Khan's funeral his local Imam refused to do his Janaza yet tens of thousands line the streets to celebrate a killer like Mumtaz Qadri led by the Maulvis who were lionising him as a Hero of Islam And this was endorsed by plenty of U.K ulema too when people like that are celebrated by prominent clergy in Pakistan then u can get why critics of Islam in Pakistan will fear for their lives.
No i am not regurgitating what i hear in the media. Theres plenty books on the history of Islamism and sectarianism and its origins are in the 70s and the spread of petro Islam after the 73 Oil Crisis. To say that extremism never existed before 9/11 is untrue. John Espositos book Islam and Politics and Mohammed Ayoob the many faces of political islam are good books on Islamism. Bassam Taibis Islamism and Islam is good one too. Forget Fox News Islam and Politics together ends up in violations of human rights. Be it freedom of religion , womens rights and minority rights.
There was a long standing Islamist insurgency in Egypt and in Algeria. The first suicide bombings by Islamist groupa started in the 80s by Hezbollah in the and also lets not forget Afghanistan and the emergence of Al Qaeda in the 80s.
even before 9/11 there was the World Trade Centre bombing in 1993 and the bombings of the U.S embassies in Kenya and Tanzania by AQ. 9/11 was what brought this type of.terrorism to the West in a major way but it was around in the Middle East for 20-30 years before that.
For a lot of Hindus someone eating cow or killing a cow for slaughter is not acceptable and BJP are catering to that now if they say India is a Hindu majority so minorities should accept that killing cows hurts our feelings and no one should eat it. is that acceptable ? Just because Pakistani is 99% Muslim doesnt mean an Atheist should be quiet just because it will hurt peoples feelings to see their religion to get criticised.
Atheists are militant in their criticism last time i checked it was religious extremists who were killing minorities in Pakistan not atheists who were engaged in militancy. Some atheists might say some offensive things about the Prophet but most just focus on the negative effect mullahs have on Pakistani society.
Yes Pakistans biggest problem is poverty corruption and religious extremism.
Thats why focusing on blasphemy witchunts and asking Facebook to help is pointless and its just being done by Nawaz to appease Maulvis. Because forget development but lets eliminate a few atheist or liberal bloggers thats what will help Pakistan.
The mentality of the nation is summed up when 20 people turn up to Mashal Khan's funeral his local Imam refused to do his Janaza yet tens of thousands line the streets to celebrate a killer like Mumtaz Qadri led by the Maulvis who were lionising him as a Hero of Islam And this was endorsed by plenty of U.K ulema too when people like that are celebrated by prominent clergy in Pakistan then u can get why critics of Islam in Pakistan will fear for their lives.
So nothing tangible. a dog whistle by a politician.
You want to equate that to the blasphemy laws and the resultant murders?
Heisenberg
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[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]
I'm a lurker here. Do you live in Pakistan or a country where the majority is Muslim? You have no idea about the ground realities do you?
Also, an observation I've made. Why should there be any blasphemy law? Who cares if it protects the minorities from getting their religion abused. People need to make a distinction between criticising ideas and people. I hate the term and significance of Islamophobia. You can't criticise what you think is dangerous in the religion. How does society progress when you can't debate and argue? Islamophobia should strictly be about Muslims and not their beliefs. As long as you aren't personal you can criticise any beliefs I hold.
I'm a lurker here. Do you live in Pakistan or a country where the majority is Muslim? You have no idea about the ground realities do you?
Also, an observation I've made. Why should there be any blasphemy law? Who cares if it protects the minorities from getting their religion abused. People need to make a distinction between criticising ideas and people. I hate the term and significance of Islamophobia. You can't criticise what you think is dangerous in the religion. How does society progress when you can't debate and argue? Islamophobia should strictly be about Muslims and not their beliefs. As long as you aren't personal you can criticise any beliefs I hold.
Slog
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Mods can we please let this thread be about condolences for the poor guy killed by a terrorist mob.
Doesnt sit well to see the usual suspects play the deflection game
Doesnt sit well to see the usual suspects play the deflection game
IAJ
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Very sad to see this. You have the blasphemy law so it should be up to the judges to decide after a fair trial. How on earth can a Mob just attack a guy on mere allegations? Only in Pak.
Can we please stick to the topic guys.
There has been some very positive progress with hundreds of people from Mashal's hometown marching in his support and plenty of arrests have been made with IG and CM KPK providing updates on the progress.
There has been some very positive progress with hundreds of people from Mashal's hometown marching in his support and plenty of arrests have been made with IG and CM KPK providing updates on the progress.
Gabbar Singh
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Which British laws stop you from criticising Israel or Zionism in public? Do you have any examples of people who have been arrested for criticising Israel in public?
KingKhanWC
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[MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION]
As this is going off topic now, I will leave it but when you're ready to respond to this as it's part of the topic.
"But u still believe people who criticise your religious ideology should be sentenced and locked u "
As this is going off topic now, I will leave it but when you're ready to respond to this as it's part of the topic.
"But u still believe people who criticise your religious ideology should be sentenced and locked u "
I don't know if Pakistanis can claim they don't like the Blasphemy law, there is so much support for this law, that even IG policy who is suppose to investigate is scared, he is worried some of his subordinate will kill him. You cannot get lawyer if excused of Blasphemy(if one ever survive the mob). This culture is not restricted to any particular part of the country or ethnicity, its pretty much everywhere, as we have seen Higher Educational institutions are not safe, politicians are not safe, liberals are not safe, even modern or middle ground Mulvis (Ghammdi) are not safe...
We all saw Qadari funeral, that was biggest funeral we ever had in of all place Pindi/ISB, he was martyr and hero in entire country. Nobody dare to speak out against Blasphemy,
People forget that Prophet himself committed Blasphemy in the culture he was living in. Its not intellectual honesty that you can praise God and Prophet all you want but cannot Criticize them. Laws are made quoting religious literature, how can you not have debate on that material?
If you cannot debate political and social policy matters in a civic manner than what's the point of democracy or education. Hand over the Government and society to whoever can best interpret the religious Book, which itself is very subject to the needs of the person interpreting...
Imagine we apply same principles to everything else in life. Why we go to Doctors, Modern Biology is based on principle that are Blasphemic in nature, why just kill poor students stop treating people using modern medicine than....Its not just medical Science pretty much entire Enterprise of Science and Technology is developed by Scientist and scholars who are agnostic and atheist, why not block everything, lets see how long society will survive...Lets not have cheap talk, lets see if Pakistanis are ready to walk the talk
Why just go after poor and helpless minorities in Pakistan, that is the whole reach of Islam and its Scholar in modern times. West, Science is too far from their reach
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Adil_94
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[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] you said u support the blasphemy law in Pakistan so is that not an endorsement of criminalising people who criticise religion or satirise it. What should the punishment be for those who break the blasphemy law in Pakistan according to you ? Unless i am completely wrong about u supporting the blasphemy law.
KingKhanWC
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I've never stated I support such a law but have only said since it is a reality it should be also implemented properly. Equal rights for minorities not just for the majority. So you're wrong , next time before accussing someone of hypocrisy, I suggest you try to understand what is being said
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Adil_94
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[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] you said if it is implemented properly it will safeguard minorities thats an endorsement of the law and that u agree with it.
Lets say someone is convicted of blasphemy by the courts what should the punishment be.
The law is a reality but so were Jim Crow Laws in america or even our own blasphemy laws against the Church in the U.K but they have been abolished. Surely a law that is unjust should be amended or abolished then rather than just accepting it. But then again we see what happens to those who say the Blasphemy Law needs to be amended or abolished in Pakistan.
Salman Taseer found out after he was gunned down in cold blood. So did Shahbaz Bhatti. And Taseers killer was called a Hero of Islam and his funeral was attended by tens of thousands and supported by many scholars not just in Pakistan but in the U.K too and these guys are teaching young kids. When you see the way Qadri was celebrated then u see just how deep the rot is in Pakistan especially amongst so called moderates like Barelvis and Sufis and not just the usual extremists.
Its the religious in Pakistan who are the emotional 12 year old girls who get so angry when they feel their religion has been insulted that they lash out in this way or they call for the death penalty to be applied to those who criticise their ideology.
Lets say someone is convicted of blasphemy by the courts what should the punishment be.
The law is a reality but so were Jim Crow Laws in america or even our own blasphemy laws against the Church in the U.K but they have been abolished. Surely a law that is unjust should be amended or abolished then rather than just accepting it. But then again we see what happens to those who say the Blasphemy Law needs to be amended or abolished in Pakistan.
Salman Taseer found out after he was gunned down in cold blood. So did Shahbaz Bhatti. And Taseers killer was called a Hero of Islam and his funeral was attended by tens of thousands and supported by many scholars not just in Pakistan but in the U.K too and these guys are teaching young kids. When you see the way Qadri was celebrated then u see just how deep the rot is in Pakistan especially amongst so called moderates like Barelvis and Sufis and not just the usual extremists.
Its the religious in Pakistan who are the emotional 12 year old girls who get so angry when they feel their religion has been insulted that they lash out in this way or they call for the death penalty to be applied to those who criticise their ideology.
KingKhanWC
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I've just explained to you my views in the clearest terms, not sure what is so difficult to understand? The law exists so therefore it should be implemented correctly. What is worse than a law which is not required is for this law not to be implemented or open to abuse.
Taseer's murder was obviously a big crime and his murderer has faced justice. People are gunned down in Pakistan for all sorts of reasons, being a certain sect, being a certain religion, being in a certain area or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. People use allsorts of reasons to kill others. He was seen as someone who opposed Islam itself not just this one law and some nutter took his life for it. This kind of thing happens all around the world, unless you think Pakistan is an extremist country?
Adil_94
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[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Pakistan itself has many good people. But so many of its clergy perpetuate this intolerant extremism and thats why this nutter as you say had tens of thousands turn out for his funeral and calling him a Hero.
The Pakistani govt did the right thing in executing Qadri but the reaction to his death just showed just how much the public opinion has been radicalised by clergy. That a murderer was being praised in such a way.
Even the killer of Asad Shah in Glasgow has had his family home in Mirpur visited by people praising him and honouring him for defending Islam.
When it comes to blasphemy or perceived violations of blasphemy law large sections of the population has a very extremist reaction to it and that needs to change.
The Pakistani govt did the right thing in executing Qadri but the reaction to his death just showed just how much the public opinion has been radicalised by clergy. That a murderer was being praised in such a way.
Even the killer of Asad Shah in Glasgow has had his family home in Mirpur visited by people praising him and honouring him for defending Islam.
When it comes to blasphemy or perceived violations of blasphemy law large sections of the population has a very extremist reaction to it and that needs to change.
KingKhanWC
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This is too ambiguous. Pakistan has a population of near 200 million. Mobs as per this story exist and supporters of Qadri exist but is Pakistan in general an extremist country? Yes or No?
inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon
Surely we belong to Allah and to Allah shall we return
I thought blasphemy law's purpose was to stop mob violence w.r.t religion but in this case people have just disregard this law. All those people should get capital punishment.
Surely we belong to Allah and to Allah shall we return
I thought blasphemy law's purpose was to stop mob violence w.r.t religion but in this case people have just disregard this law. All those people should get capital punishment.
Cpt. Rishwat
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I've seen funerals of local gangsters attract hundreds to praise what are essentially murderers and drug lords where I live in the UK. These don't even get a mention in the local press never mind worldwide coverage.
I'm not really sure what your point is here. Most people in Britain wouldn't know about Asad Shah, Mirpur or Qadri.
The latest news coming out of the incident is that the university was directly involved in the blasphemy accusation. Below is what was written in a article by parhlo
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According to The News International, Wajahat, the key accused in Mashal's death has said that the Abdul Wali Khan University officials are responsible for the murder, as he spread fake rumors of blasphemy on Mashal and his friends on their orders.
As per The News, "Sources said that Wahajat had held the administration of Abdul Wali Khan University Mardan responsible for the incident. He alleged that the university administration had forced him to do so.
Giving further details, the key accused said that he was called at the Chairman Office by the administration on April 13, where 15 to 20 people including Lecturer Zia Ullah, Lecturer Anis, Superintendent Arshad, Clerk Asad, Idrees and Asfandyar were already present.
The administration asked me to make public that Mashal Khan and others had committed blasphemy. Upon this, I delivered a speech alleging that Mashal and others had committed blasphemy. I told people that I had heard Mashal, Abdullah and Zubair uttering blasphemous words. On that occasion, Fahim Alam endorsed my allegations. In the meantime, security in charge Bilal arrived at the scene and warned that whoever tried to side with Mashal will be dealt strictly. He said that he himself would kill Mashal."
"
So corruption at university caused the death of a university student. Hope PTI takes strong action, for the moment it's just been twitter warrior stuff. I wish all the people involved from uni admin are hanged publicly.
"
According to The News International, Wajahat, the key accused in Mashal's death has said that the Abdul Wali Khan University officials are responsible for the murder, as he spread fake rumors of blasphemy on Mashal and his friends on their orders.
As per The News, "Sources said that Wahajat had held the administration of Abdul Wali Khan University Mardan responsible for the incident. He alleged that the university administration had forced him to do so.
Giving further details, the key accused said that he was called at the Chairman Office by the administration on April 13, where 15 to 20 people including Lecturer Zia Ullah, Lecturer Anis, Superintendent Arshad, Clerk Asad, Idrees and Asfandyar were already present.
The administration asked me to make public that Mashal Khan and others had committed blasphemy. Upon this, I delivered a speech alleging that Mashal and others had committed blasphemy. I told people that I had heard Mashal, Abdullah and Zubair uttering blasphemous words. On that occasion, Fahim Alam endorsed my allegations. In the meantime, security in charge Bilal arrived at the scene and warned that whoever tried to side with Mashal will be dealt strictly. He said that he himself would kill Mashal."
"
So corruption at university caused the death of a university student. Hope PTI takes strong action, for the moment it's just been twitter warrior stuff. I wish all the people involved from uni admin are hanged publicly.
Watched the video, don't think they were students from same college/university nobody even tried to save him.
Nostalgic
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I would be interested in finding out what the affiliation of these admin types is. It will be revealed in the fullness of time, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are linked to two well-known outfits, one which terrorizes campuses countrywide, and the other which tries to lure students off on preaching picnics in exchange for grades and favors, all the while disparaging the very education which pays their salaries.
Those of us who've been at the receiving end of their attempts at character assassination (which in this case led to an actual assassination) will recognize their modus operandi.
Based on posts by folks living in pakistan and events, this comes thro' as a rhetorical question.
As per tweets from Jibran Nasir and other sources, most of them are affiliated with ANP.
Couch Cricketer
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Looks like a planned attempt to remove the guy from the university got out of the uni administrations control. They all should be tried under the terrorism court the instigators as well as the guys that killed him. What Mashal said or did is not relevant in any way or form.
Ok so you're fine with the state punishing people for 'blasphemy?'...I don't know your views hence I ask ...
You only criticise Pakistan when it allows you to take a jab at the Americans ...ie on drones or Afghanistan ...
But as Adil correctly points out your comments show your hypocrisy ...you got a little offended when a Pakistani on the ground said there was an issue with the treatment of minorities ...
If a group of white guys lynched a Muslim in the UK you would have been up in arms ...
Being a nationalist is fine by the way but you're not a true one when all you're interested in is misrepresentation ...rather than actually offering something constructive ...
You probably found Malala more offensive than the attack itself ...
Slog
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if you say No you've got your head in the sand
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PA9KkOkAt6w
Pakistan is doomed. I've never been ashamed of being a Pakistani but after this incident I am. Some people are still ignorant about the realities that they still consider this as an isolated incident and argue that this doesn't represent the true Pakistan or the true Muslims. Ignorant bunch.
Pakistan is doomed. I've never been ashamed of being a Pakistani but after this incident I am. Some people are still ignorant about the realities that they still consider this as an isolated incident and argue that this doesn't represent the true Pakistan or the true Muslims. Ignorant bunch.
If anyone say no then either he's living abroad and haven't been to Pakistan in so long that he has constructed his own reality or he's living in an isolated liberal bubble.
DW44
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Source? Jibran Nasir also claimed that Parvez Khattak instructed his underlings to have the KPK elementary school curriculum approved by Sipah Sahaba.
The comparison with Israel is a lazy one...
In reference to what KKWC said...criticism of the Israeli state and its policies is fine...publications like Haaretz etc...you can openly criticise the policies of the Israeli state as many Jews do...
Now how about those who say Israel is a heresy?...this is largely the domain of the ultra-orthodox...so the 'blasphemy' in this case is by the religious right who refuse Israels right to exist...but the state in no way advocates their arrest as you asserted in your post...
I'm sure you have heard of Neturei Karta...they attack Zionism and dont believe the Israeli state should be allowed to exist...
Moshe Hirsch had a Jewish funeral in Jerusalem...he prayed for the Arabs to win the wars they fought with Israel...Ahmadinejad liked him too...for being a 'real' Jew...he advised Yasser Arafat...
And guess what...he wasn't arrested...his organisation have burned Israeli flags in Jerusalem...
He is an extreme example but far from being the only anti-zionists in Israel...the Edah HaChareidis are a lot larger and are also anti-Zionist...they refuse state funding, refuse to serve in the army, and openly call the state heretic...
And these guys live OPENLY in Jerusalem...they have their own publications, and their own schools...
The Satmar too are anti-Zionist...you get the idea though I hope...
Internally Israel does have anti-Zionists who are openly anti-Zionist and don't end up getting lynched nor are they forced to be silent...
It's a lazy comparison especially since i'm sure you are aware of what I have stated above...
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https://tribune.com.pk/story/138694...-urging-crowd-mardan-not-name-mashals-killer/
PTI councillor says those who reveal Mashal's killer would be guilty of apostasy
PTI councillor says those who reveal Mashal's killer would be guilty of apostasy
dhump
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very very sad news I am speechless and can not get over this incident.
What makes it even more painful is that deep down inside we all know this is not the first nor the last.
What makes it even more painful is that deep down inside we all know this is not the first nor the last.
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And he is arrested by KP Police thats PTI govt for you in KP. In Punjab and Sindh police officers are removed for arresting even a councillor of PMLN and PPPP while KP Police got a history of arresting sitting MPs of PTI.
Enigma_
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People will disagree here but the blasphemy law needs to go. We can keep on pretending that a few harsh words and imprisonments are going to solve the issue but it isn't! The state advocates such a primal approach to anyone that insults islam. It is beyond stupid.
dhump
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Also very brave of Imran khan to go to his family and speak against his murder in public and vowing to change the name of university on his name. I am happy that somoene in Pakistan didnt cared about mass extremist vote bank and took the right step.
Kudos to Imran Khan
JaDed
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That's good to know sadly people including myself always catch only the negative news.
Mostly from people on social media who know uni administration.
Mian
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This is going to really hurt his vote bank and popularity in conservative regions of KP and Punjab and that yahoodi agent card will be used against him once again when elections ate not far away but sometimes you have to take the right step even if majority is against you. Kisi ko to step lena he pehla verna things will remain same forever
DW44
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How is it brave? Public opinion is in the kid's favor because the blasphemy allegations have proven false and even conservatives are supporting him(because the murderers made conservative Islamists look bad by killing a known innocent in the name of the conservatives' ideology) so this does absolutely no harm to his far right vote bank. The man is still in an electoral alliance with ASWJ(aka Sipah Sahaba aka Lashkar e Jhangvi) and it's all well and good expressing outrage after the fact, condemning the act of barbarity but it does not whitewash his role in creating an environment of intolerance in the first place. Why was his chief minister seeking Sipah Sahaba's approval for schoolbooks? Do you think Sipah Sahaba approved textbooks in elementary schools don't produce extremists who would lynch alleged blasphemers? Why has there been no word on Jamaat e Islami's role in all this? Both IJT and ISF members were part of the lynch mob. What action has been taken against the two ruling parties in KPK whose youth wings were at the forefront of the lynching? Imran Khan seems to have developed this pattern where he will toe the extremist line until something happens after which he'll condemn it in strong words without actually taking any action and then it's business as usual.
Him going to the family's home is meaningless unless it is followed by concrete action including but not limited to cleansing KPK's school curriculum which creates the kind of mindset that leads to such incidents, dissolving the alliance with JI(if you're allied with them, you can condemn such incidents all you want, you're still part of the problem and action against the police force and university administration for being complicit in the murder. This old PTI tactic of verbally condemning extremism while supporting it through their actions has run its course and people don't buy it any more. If he wants to be taken seriously, lets see him put his money where his mouth is instead of just visiting the victim's home while his party's policies continue to be aligned with those of the perpetrators.
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dhump
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First of all public opinion is not at all clear if you move out of social media even on social media there is a lot of Ifs and but's in Mishals case. I am also not a supporter of Imran Khan nor I agree with his policies about Sipah Sahaba and JI, but this does not make his every step wrong.
You know as much as I do that this topic will be raised in election rallies where tons of people will chant against Mishal and IK also we must not let it go that he is the only leader of mainstream party who at least took this step so credit where its due this is a step in the right direction. If he follows his words with action this we have to wait and see, but let's wait and support right steps taken by anyone.
DW44
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Public opinion seems to be divided into two camps: those who see the lynching as a heinous crime, a minority, and those who see it as more of an operational error than a crime i.e. it would have been justified had the victim actually been guilty of blasphemy but in this case it isn't because the blasphemy allegation has been proven false conclusively. The latter case accounts for the bulk of public opinion. There's very little outright support for the lynching and the perpetrators like there was in Salman Taseer's case.
This topic will be raised in election regardless of what IK does because that's how politics work. The same people who will raise it now would have raised it in a different way if he hadn't visited the victim's family. My point is that it's ultimately a meaningless gesture when his party's policies and their network of alliances is still very much in line with the far right in the same way that Nawaz Sharif condemning a Lashkar e Jhangvi attack in Quetta is meaningless when his party is in an electoral alliance with them and make policies that enable their actions. I wouldn't hold my breath on his rhetoric being followed by actions because this isn't the first time IK has verbally expressed outrage in the aftermath opf an Islamist attack while retaining policies that favor the Islamists heavily. JI needs to go and the litmus test of IK's true intentions will be how the school curriculum issue is dealt with from here on because he can condemn the "operational error" all he wants, if his government is still allowing JI to dictate school curicullum and getting it approved by Sipah Sahaba for good measure, his condemnation is meaningless because through his actions(or inaction), his schools are producing a hundred more mobs like the one that killed Mashal.
In short you just simply don't want to give any credit because disagree with him on some other points.
Public opinion is in kid's favour? Did you really follow what happened? Imran Khan was the first key politician to totally stand behind Mashal and his family and went as far as saying that "Ye jungle ka qanoon nahi chalega" knowing very well what it could mean in a blasphemy case. This was within few hours after this incident and many people criticised Imran's statement for being blunt. All the Bilawals and Sharifs took couple of days to condemn this after finding out what exactly had happened.
Beyond statements and condemnations, key culprits had been arrested within hours, CM KPK had adddressed the media, parliament and made it clear that Mashal was innocent. Imam who refused janza prayer was arrested and even PTI's councillor has been arrested. Imran Khan has since visited the family and completely stood behind the innocent person from beginning to now.
So quite clear that NOTHING is ever going to be enough for people like you.
waqar goraya
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Imran had also condemned killing of Salman Taseer.
By the way, Shireen Mazari spoke in favour of amending blasphemy law to ensure those who level wrong blasphemy accusations are severely punished. This was not the first time she spoke in favour of amending this law, she raised this couple of years ago alongwith couple of other PTI leaders in NA but got no support from so called liberal parties.
Salman Taseer himself said that Imran Khan agrees with him on amendments to blasphemy law and IK has not only condemned his murder but spoke against Qadri as well. As i mentioned in previous thread, PTI has also presented suggestions in National Assembly to amend the blasphemy law to ensure those who level wrong accusations are severely punished which is most practical way to stop the abuse of this law.
DW44
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No of course not, why would I follow what happened, I have no interest in such incidents and pubblic response to them. /sarcasm
I refuse to give credit because I refuse to look the other way on the massive gulf between his rhetoric and actions. The political issue that I disagree with him on happens to be central to this issue and you know it. On the one hand his party is busy tailoring the school system to produce such mobs and on the other they issue verbal condemnations when those mobs act because their urban voters expect these condemnations. Bilawals and Sharifs are not a benchmark here and being better than them is not an achievement, that's like the owner of a 1994 Mehran bragging about his car being better than a 1982 FX.
Oh wow, he made it clear that Mashal was innocent, how magnanimous of him to tell us what we already knew. How many police officials have been disciplined for their negligence and inaction? What percentage of the hundreds of people who were part of the mob have been arrested? Has any formal action against ISF and IJT been taken?
Yes, it isn't enough. I have had enough of these hypocrites issuing condemnations when an issue they helped create blows up. Where's the follow up? I don't want something is better than nothing, it's all or nothing when it comes to extremism and regardless of how much any politician, including IK, condemns these acts, their actions are responsible for these incidents in the first place.
DW44
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As did every mainstream politician. That's my issue with his ilk. Condemnations are well and good but where's the action? On the one hand he condemns every incident like this one and on the other his government has thrown it's weight behind policies that produce more Qadris and mobs, not Taseers and Mashals.
This is what an independent analyst from Dawn news just said. Zarrar is known to be moderate, liberal and runs one of the most unbiased tv show "Zara Hut kay".
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Say what you will, Imran khan's reaction on mashal has been the strongest among political leaders so far</p>— Zarrar Khuhro (@ZarrarKhuhro) <a href="https://twitter.com/ZarrarKhuhro/status/854273451657498624">April 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Pretty much proves some people have absolutely no idea but still act like experts with their extremely biased views.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Say what you will, Imran khan's reaction on mashal has been the strongest among political leaders so far</p>— Zarrar Khuhro (@ZarrarKhuhro) <a href="https://twitter.com/ZarrarKhuhro/status/854273451657498624">April 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Pretty much proves some people have absolutely no idea but still act like experts with their extremely biased views.
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Slog
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Disagree.
The camps are:
1) Those who see it as a heinous crime regardless
2) Those who see it as a heinous crime due to the lynching aspect but would have supported a judicial process for punishment of blasphemy, if it so happened
The people who support lynching is a tiny tiny minority regardless of whether blasphemy happened or not. This is my reading on this case. In Taseer's case a large portion were satisfied with the actions of Qadri
Slog
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wrong.
most mainstream politicians, including PPP's own leadership cadre, stayed away from public comment on Taseer murder and most certainly did not condemn Qadri outright.
Stop rewriting history
DW44
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And I agree. Imran's reaction has been strong and I have already said as much. It always is in the aftermath of tragedies such as this one. Issue is with his actions and his party's policies. They always condemn extremism after national tragedies but at the same time, through their policies, strengthen and enable extremists and that has always been the case with every political party in Pakistan, be it the supposedly liberal PPP who created the Afghan Taliban and were ASWJ's electoral allies until not too long ago, N-League who essentially sanctioned this execution when their brain dead interior minister said blasphemy will no longer be tolerated(what message does that send to the public when it's already a capital offense?) or PTI who allowed JI to use KPK's education system to promote exactly this kind of intolerance, going so far as to take input from proscribed terrorist outfits in drafting their education policy. They can't feign ignorance about the policy being untested since JI had already produced two generations of extremists through their hold on the education system and they were still allowed to have their way in KPK by PTI despite that precedent on a national level.
Zarrar Khuhro said a lot more than just that tweet in his show the day of the lynching and one thing that stuck with me is his prediction that once the issue cools down a little, Mashal's family will be pressured by the government and the public prosecutor may throw his case. I'll be following up to see if that happens because it wouldn't be the first time in Pakistan and if it does, the government(both federal and provincial) can go jump off a cliff for all I care.
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Slog
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This is true
IK and PT govt came out with public statements immediately whereas the other mainstream parties took their time to see what the public opinion is before taking a public position
DW44
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I was not in Pakistan at the time of his assassination and wasn't for another year almost so wasn't aware of the reaction at the time but after my return, over the years, I have seen many politicians from virtually every party bar the religious outfits condemn it at some point.
Mian
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Some of these liberals only criticize to look cool and they can't appericiate anything good by someone they don't like just because they are too stubborn.
DW44
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We criticize because we actually give a crap what happens in our country. I'm not going to apologize to the hypocritical right for demanding more of my elected representatives than some empty rhetoric with not only zero follow up in the aftermath of national tragedies but doubling down on policies that actually enable and protect the perpetrators. If that hurts the feelings of any politician's fan club because they're too squeamish about criticism of whichever politician they worship, so be it, I could care less about their feelings when actual people are being killed day in and day out because of their heroes' policies.
marra i think u know pashto..mazgha ma kharabwa ik has done evrthing he could ,,os islami mulk k ba sa karona dasi ye u cant expect..i am reading ur evry comment and u want to get sympathy.....it will not happen in pakistan ..can u do blasphemous activity in europe????if not then how can u expect it in pak..even india has issues regarding these sorts of problems....this time kpk goverment has done what they could ..
Black Zero
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I am IK's critic but visiting Mishal's home is definitely a right step in right direction!
I wish that in future, he also realize that this law (and other such laws) are fundamentally backward and nation cannot progress with such laws.
he is a slow learner as we know that he was among the last politicians to condemn Taliban etc. but eventually he got that.
he was against operation but then he supported it (he had left no option)
I wish that in future, he also realize that this law (and other such laws) are fundamentally backward and nation cannot progress with such laws.
he is a slow learner as we know that he was among the last politicians to condemn Taliban etc. but eventually he got that.
he was against operation but then he supported it (he had left no option)
he was the first one who condemned mashal,s murder...while nooras did it after two days when the scenario was clear...u can watch dawn special program for that.....
DW44
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I'm so sorry to inconvenience you with my rants that clearly have no merit but like I said, I care what happens and I'm not OK with weekly executions, burning down of entire minority neighborhoods, bomb blasts and terrorist outfits being a part of all governments. What I ask for is the bare minimum to even start dealing with the root cause of all these issues but if the standard response is that the politicians have done all they can and you can't do X(insert any number of things here) because we're an Islamic country than there's not much left to be said except for good luck fixing any of those issues, don't hold your breath, and please at least have the decency not to insult people's intelligence by claiming we stand against extremism and terrorism while supporting and defending the policy framework that allows those issues to exist.
Black Zero
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- It happened in KPK so it was good for Federal govt to give KPK govt it's space.
- Pervaiz Khatak was ambiguous in his earlier statements.
- KPK's police role in the start of investigation was condemn-able.
- With CJ's involvement, now investigation is going in right direction.
Slog
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The mandatory death penalty on this black law was passed by Nawaz Sharif govt in 1991
Black Zero
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It's a shameful act.
but this is a result of the continuous radicalization of society that started in early 70s.
Personally, I consider free speech basis of modern civilization and no one should be above the criticism.
no the investigation was announced before cj did it..pervaiz khatak had alredy announced commission...and how much time it takees for PM to clarify himself in internal issues,,,,he was fearful and condemned it after it was clear that no blasphemous activity has occurred..i am following the story right from the start dont confuse people....kpk police response at that time was not upto the mark agree on that..
i am not saying that we are happy with the existing situation but u have to give credit when it is due..it was not ik fault to start with...who involved this nation in afghan war???ik???? how did these things happened?????ik is doing what he can and he is damn right regarding this incident...
DW44
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I did give credit where it's due i.e. for his condemnation. I won't give credit where it isn't due however and that's for concrete steps taken to tackle this issue, which he hasn't taken. People can downplay it all they want but allowing JI and Sipah Sahaba to dictate what goes in school books is one of the biggest reasons incidents like this happen regularly. It shouldn't even come as a surprise considering the exact same thing happened when JI and their ilk did the same thing the last time(Zia government). We have been involved with Afghanistan constantly since 1954 so any failures on that front are the responsibility of every government since then and the rise of extremism in Pakistan is also something that is the result of every government since Yahya Khan's, regardless of their political differences, fostering policies that were designed to promote extremism among the masses in Pakistan so let's not try to deflect blame on any one person or party, is hamaam may sab nangay hain.
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yess the problem is long and old.but ik not only condemened it but he said that it is the defining moment and we have to take some steps...lets wait what they do next..regarding
Black Zero
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Maybe you are following the story but definitely not my post.
Police was originally focused in finding connection of victim to blasphemous material.
CM was equally "fearful" as he also ensure that Mishal was "clean" .. a sample " I have been in contact with the police, and according to reports so far, nothing has emerged until now to suggest that he [Mashal Khan] committed blasphemy. We have taken out the student's mobile record, and it does not show any text or any such thing,"
Commission is a usual tool for politicians of third world.
DW44
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Again I'm not disagreeing with you over he said. I'm concerned about what he does from here on. Let's wait and watch, time will tell which one of us is right.
he may not do what u want<by seeing ur comments on the whole issue> ,,,but he is better than the lots.
uberkoen
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Separation of state and religion has become a necessity now. The infusion of religion within the state has resulted in radicalization and it has gone too far. Madrassa's should be shut down and the state should not be governed by religion.
This is the only solution.
This is the only solution.
Enigma_
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It is the only solution. The day this happens is the day Pakistan gets rid of all forms of extremism in my honest opinion. More than that it'll start to flourish.
