Mention any individual that you had wished to switch into your religion

[deltexas]

AFAIK, tax is always a compulsion by its very nature. Never heard of a voluntary tax. .
Please tell me which of the Jaziya or Zakat were voluntary?

Impose this tax on muslims in Ind and then see the outcome here or should I say the outcry !

 

[Stewie]

@CricketCartoons @hoshiarpurexpress @Bhaijaan (I think Bhaijaan might already be a Muslim based on his views though)
@Local.Dada

AFAIK, tax is always a compulsion by its very nature. Never heard of a voluntary tax. .
Please tell me which of the Jaziya or Zakat were voluntary?

Now we are getting into the semantics of it. It’s a tax which itself is a compulsion, yes. Not related to the compulsion in faith. From that point of view, it’s a non sequitur.

 

[Stewie]

Impose this tax on muslims in Ind and then see the outcome here or should I say the outcry !

On the flip side, subject Muslims to zakat rates and not any other tax. Would that be more agreeable?

But it can’t happen since India is not a Muslim state.

Like previously stated in history you can find examples where jaziya was cheaper than zakat.

With all that being said, in modern day world where interest is so deeply embedded in all sorts of trade, avoiding government mandated tax is unavoidable unless you live in one of the rich gulf states.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I would like all Muslims to leave Islam..and take up Sikhism or Hinduism..
So less of 'sar tan se juda' and more peace and love..

Thanks. I did put up a thread on here asking How to become a Hindu but the answers were all a bit muted and not very enthusiastic.

As for the peace and love, it's not what I feel from the posters of those religions who come here, I have to be honest.

 

[Stewie]

Let me add to the above, I was attempting to explain the merit of zakat and explain the fair concept of jaziya at the time it was implemented. I see there are already attempts to drag it to the modern day world where its application will be almost impossible thanks to the laws and regulations of modern day banking and international trade rules.

A more standard tax code for all citizens regardless of race/religion/etc is the most appropriate solution in modern day governance.

 

[Stewie]

Thanks. I did put up a thread on here asking How to become a Hindu but the answers were all a bit muted and not very enthusiastic.

As for the peace and love, it's not what I feel from the posters of those religions who come here, I have to be honest.

To add to that, he believes all Muslims are out to kill him, poor fella. He should really spend some time outside his comfort zone.

 

[JaDed]

Thanks. I did put up a thread on here asking How to become a Hindu but the answers were all a bit muted and not very enthusiastic.

As for the peace and love, it's not what I feel from the posters of those religions who come here, I have to be honest.

What about the Meek Hindus that you and other British Pakistanis have been talking about for years in UK.. surely they are peace loving.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

@CricketCartoons @hoshiarpurexpress @Bhaijaan (I think Bhaijaan might already be a Muslim based on his views though)
@Local.Dada

Now we are getting into the semantics of it. It’s a tax which itself is a compulsion, yes. Not related to the compulsion in faith. From that point of view, it’s a non sequitur.

Muslims earn brownie Holy points by Zakat, Where are the divine brownies for the Non-Muslims through Jaziya? The grand freedom to breathe?

 

[Stewie]

What about the Meek Hindus that you and other British Pakistanis have been talking about for years in UK.. surely they are peace loving.

I think he is asking about information on conversion to Hinduism. Nothing to do with being peace loving. I’m actually interested in finding that out myself.

According to Hinduism can one be a Hindu and believe in Muslim faith at the same time?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Let me add to the above, I was attempting to explain the merit of zakat and explain the fair concept of jaziya at the time it was implemented. I see there are already attempts to drag it to the modern day world where its application will be almost impossible thanks to the laws and regulations of modern day banking and international trade rules.

A more standard tax code for all citizens regardless of race/religion/etc is the most appropriate solution in modern day governance.

There is no concept of "at the time" with regards to divine diktats. That's what Religions imply.
There is no modern thing or ancient thing. The word of God is eternal and has been spoken, don't skew its meaning by your own interpretations for modern consumption.

 

[Stewie]

Muslims earn brownie Holy points by Zakat, Where are the divine brownies for the Non-Muslims through Jaziya? The grand freedom to breathe?

The Janiya is actually an agreement. I shared a detailed research article on that. It entitles non Muslims to rights within the state. Protection, welfare, etc. you could actually look that up yourself as to what it offered/offers.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I think he is asking about information on conversion to Hinduism. Nothing to do with being peace loving. I’m actually interested in finding that out myself.

According to Hinduism can one be a Hindu and believe in Muslim faith at the same time?

You have been an expert on Hinduism for quite sometime. I am surprised you don't know the answer to this simple query.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

The Janiya is actually an agreement. I shared a detailed research article on that. It entitles non Muslims to rights within the state. Protection, welfare, etc. you could actually look that up yourself as to what it offered/offers.

Where are my Holy brownie points??

 

[Stewie]

There is no concept of "at the time" with regards to divine diktats. That's what Religions imply.
There is no modern thing or ancient thing. The word of God is eternal and has been spoken, don't skew its meaning by your own interpretations for modern consumption.

I never said the concept itself is “flawed”
It’s just not practical in today’s world for reasons already mentioned.

 

[Stewie]

You have been an expert on Hinduism for quite sometime. I am surprised you don't know the answer to this simple query.

Just like you are an expert on Islam and Muslims, right?

The mature way to discuss such things is to learn from each other rather than engage in a game of one upmanship. There are political differences (Hindus vs Islamic extremism) and there are philosophical truths (Islam vs Hinduism). A more educated man can delineate the two.

 

[Itachi]

I never said the concept itself is “flawed”
It’s just not practical in today’s world for reasons already mentioned.

In other words, can we call it outdated with reference to modern society?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Just like you are an expert on Islam and Muslims, right?

The mature way to discuss such things is to learn from each other rather than engage in a game of one upmanship. There are political differences (Hindus vs Islamic extremism) and there are philosophical truths (Islam vs Hinduism). A more educated man can delineate the two.

I tend to start from that but you have considerably failed to live up to the this very post in the past with fantastic flair.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

In other words, can we call it outdated with reference to modern society?

How can a divine law by God be "outdated" ??

 

[Stewie]

In other words, can we call it outdated with reference to modern society?

Absolutely! Modern day economics, trade, taxation is all based on Jewish interest based philosophy. They are deeply embedded in banking, finance, pretty much everywhere. Because they were deeply embedded in the western world and trade, with the overall monopoly of those nations, colonization, and now in the post colonial era, there is absolutely no room for the Islamic taxation laws to survive in the modern day world and a nation or state to be able to survive. I think only the gulf states that are super rich have those laws, but I could be wrong. I am sure they also vary from state to state.

But lets say for a country like Pakistan or India, it is just not feasible. So those Indian Muslims who want that sort of thing in India, I think they are wrong and barking up the wrong tree, if that's what you were trying to get at.

 

[Stewie]

How can a divine law by God be "outdated" ??

I don't know if outdated is the right word, I would say applicable or feasible, would be more appropriate perhaps

It is important to understand the law applies on a "state" or those who "run the state" and not individual Muslims. They can continue to pay zakat, but the concept of running the whole state on zakat and Jaziya like the Muslim states of bygone eras did, is not feasible today, which is why I always say there are no proper "Islamic" states that exist today. They all use interest based trading practices, there is monarchy in KSA (which is not legal in Islam) amongst other things, which a proper Islamic state is not supposed to have.

 

[Stewie]

I tend to start from that but you have considerably failed to live up to the this very post in the past with fantastic flair.

well you know what they say, opinion are like ***** .. everyone has one.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I don't know if outdated is the right word, I would say applicable or feasible, would be more appropriate perhaps

It is important to understand the law applies on a "state" or those who "run the state" and not individual Muslims. They can continue to pay zakat, but the concept of running the whole state on zakat and Jaziya like the Muslim states of bygone eras did, is not feasible today, which is why I always say there are no proper "Islamic" states that exist today. They all use interest based trading practices, there is monarchy in KSA (which is not legal in Islam) amongst other things, which a proper Islamic state is not supposed to have.

So you mean to say Divine laws are somehow not applicable or become infeasible by acts of Non-believer humans??

 

[Stewie]

So you mean to say Divine laws are somehow not applicable or become infeasible by acts of Non-believer humans??

Correct. Non-believers and believers are both part of it. I think we are all part of today's society and one cannot live and survive without some of the modern day constraints in place. How can a state (Muslim or otherwise) survive in the modern day world without abiding by the rules of the modern day trade laws?

 

[Stewie]

at a personal level, for me, for instance, I live in the States. If I am not super rich, and make an even above average income, can I afford housing without paying interest? Can I afford a new car, college education for my children? What about my healthcare needs, what about insurance of any sort, what about investments and retirement, etc. They all involve interest, which is Haram. So unless I decide to become a hermit, live in a cocoon, or live in a country where interest is not in play, I cannot avoid any of it.

And you will be hard pressed to find a country in the world where interest is not in play.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Correct. Non-believers and believers are both part of it. I think we are all part of today's society and one cannot live and survive without some of the modern day constraints in place. How can a state (Muslim or otherwise) survive in the modern day world without abiding by the rules of the modern day trade laws?

They are empowered by the divine revelation of God. Why do they need to care about the laws created by mortal Kaffir humans?

 

[Stewie]

They are empowered by the divine revelation of God. Why do they need to care about the laws created by mortal Kaffir humans?

I tend to start from that but you have considerably failed to live up to the this very post in the past with fantastic flair.

I don't know if anybody has told you this about yourself but you pretty much engage in what you accuse others of. What is the point then?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I don't know if anybody has told you this about yourself but you pretty much engage in what you accuse others of. What is the point then?

I am limited here by patience of the moderation of this forum that allows a particular style of response from one side but will not tolerate a similar response in return. Many of my replies meet a sad demise before they reach the person I am having a conversation with.

 

[Stewie]

I am limited here by patience of the moderation of this forum that allows a particular style of response from one side but will not tolerate a similar response in return. Many of my replies meet a sad demise before they reach the person I am having a conversation with.

Too bad, we can go discuss this stuff on an Indian forum then. Send me the link to a more reasonable and neutral Indian forum than this one, when you find it. I will be happy to debate you there.

 

[Bhaijaan]

@CricketCartoons @hoshiarpurexpress @Bhaijaan (I think Bhaijaan might already be a Muslim based on his views though)
@Local.Dada

Now we are getting into the semantics of it. It’s a tax which itself is a compulsion, yes. Not related to the compulsion in faith. From that point of view, it’s a non sequitur.

Thanks brother for remembering me in your thoughts. Much appreciated.

Muslims or Hindus, let’s keep humanity in our heart and spread the seeds of love.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

@CricketCartoons @hoshiarpurexpress @Bhaijaan (I think Bhaijaan might already be a Muslim based on his views though)
@Local.Dada

Now we are getting into the semantics of it. It’s a tax which itself is a compulsion, yes. Not related to the compulsion in faith. From that point of view, it’s a non sequitur.

Bhaijaan is omnipresent..

 

[BouncerGuy]

There is no specific guy. Their own personal choice. All we can do is preach peace and humanity.

 

[Farhan The Man]

Where are my Holy brownie points??

The most interesting point of the debate is lost in rhetoric.

muslims pay zakat to earn holy right to jannat.

non-muslims only pay protection so muslims and alike don't pillage them in this world. Thereafter hellbound.

Comes across as bhata-khori, moajir qomi mint-like behavior in karachi.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Stay on topic guys. Do not talk about religions and comparisons here.