Mickey, Asia Cup survival rests on wicket-taking spinners | Send an SOS now for a Zafar/Asghar/Raza!

[Seen Sheen]

On these lifeless and laborious tracks in the desert, it was a travesty not picking even one genuine wicket taking spinner to begin with. With all due respect to Shadab, he's more of a run stifler than an attacking spinner right now.

Having seen all the games here and with totals predicted to be lower than modern ODI standards, you can only defend or restrict opposition with genuine spinners; spinners that look to take wickets and make life harder for the batsmen with their revs/control and variety.

All the sides remaining in the tournament are playing at least two front line spinners and look threatening only when their spinners come onto bowl (specifically in India and Afghanistan's cases). It really is a no brainer to atleast include one front line spinner along with Shadab.

I know Mickey backs his pacers to produce the goods in general but his stubbornness to rely on steamers on dead and slow UAE tracks has already cost us a test series in UAE and that too a highly embarrassing one (the most shameful result for me since dropping the test against Zimbabwe) & we are on our way to suffer another disastrous result here in Asia Cup. We can ill afford another selection howler which is frankly based on ego and ignorance.

You simply can't restrict decent batting oppositions on these tracks with only one spinner. Playing 4 pacers is utterly non-sensical and self-destructing. I am not implying we are going to definitely win with two spinners but you only increase your chances of winning by entering the field with the right combination for the given conditions.

So Inzi and Mickey need to wake up and send an SOS for a Zafar Gohar, Asghar Muhammad or Raza Hasan!

 

[PakLFC]

I don't think any team can make changes now.

 

[Seen Sheen]

Blasting out undercooked and mediocre Hong Kong batsmen with pacers might have augmented Mickey's oblivion.

This game has to serve as a wake up call for the selection committee/team management.

Yes, batting and shot selection need to improve but if the ego keeps dictating bowling selections then the former might have no real bearing on the outcome of the remaining games for Pakistan.

 

[Seen Sheen]

I don't think any team can make changes now.

It is possible if you really want. Somebody can be sent home citing injury scare.

 

[Pete Rose]

Team gets dismissed under 200, threads mushroom talking about spinners.

 

[Seen Sheen]

Team gets dismissed under 200, threads mushroom talking about spinners.

That's because we are not wrist slitters who focus on blasting the team and batting after one off day and making unnecessary hoopla about it. We are here discussing something that's not directly the reason of the defeat but was shown up to be a major area of concern. I am pretty sure batting will put up decent totals but it might be too late to talk about the subject at hand after 23rd.

Besides there are plenty of threads doing the dissection of batting already. I am not sure you can really do something drastic in the batting; you certainly can in the bowling department by admitting the ignorance and calling up a specialist spinner.

 

[Pete Rose]

That's because we are not wrist slitters who focus on blasting the team and batting after one off day and making unnecessary hoopla about it. We are here discussing something that's not directly the reason of the defeat but was shown up to be a major area of concern. I am pretty sure batting will put up decent totals but it might be too late to talk about the subject at hand after 23rd.

Besides there are plenty of threads doing the dissection of batting already. I am not sure you can really do something drastic in the batting; you certainly can in the bowling department by admitting the ignorance and calling up a specialist spinner.

No. We have no way of knowing whether we are short of spinners. We have not put up enough runs here. We played hong kong with this attack and dismissed them easily, and Hong Kong nearly pulled off an upset against India, despite their spinners.

There is no need for any spinners to be added to this squad. The only discussion should if we can bring in Nawaz in place of someone.

Pakistan's issue was poor batting.

 

[MMHS]

Team gets dismissed under 200, threads mushroom talking about spinners.

See it as a tactical blunder. Even with Shane, Murali & Saq teams won't defend 160 against IND here, but what if batsmen put 260? Still, with Shadab injured, I am sure IND would have chased the target, which won't be the case if there were couple of genuine finger spinners.

Getting all-out for 160 doesn't happen often and whichever bowling combination is picked, it won't defend that total; but foolish is not to prepare with enough resources to defend 260, in case.

 

[Pete Rose]

See it as a tactical blunder. Even with Shane, Murali & Saq teams won't defend 160 against IND here, but what if batsmen put 260? Still, with Shadab injured, I am sure IND would have chased the target, which won't be the case if there were couple of genuine finger spinners.

Getting all-out for 160 doesn't happen often and whichever bowling combination is picked, it won't defend that total; but foolish is not to prepare with enough resources to defend 260, in case.

As i replied to OP, Pakistan beat Hong Kong with this Squad. and Hong Kong nearly pulled off an upset despite india's spinners.
If shadab is fit, then they need to squeeze in Nawaz (possibly in place of Shinwari).

 

[Seen Sheen]

No. We have no way of knowing whether we are short of spinners. We have not put up enough runs here. We played hong kong with this attack and dismissed them easily, and Hong Kong nearly pulled off an upset against India, despite their spinners.

There is no need for any spinners to be added to this squad. The only discussion should if we can bring in Nawaz in place of someone.

Pakistan's issue was poor batting.

Unfortunately this burying the heads in sand mentality is what's prevalent amongst the team management as well - solely focusing on one suite of the team and thinking all is well about the other.

I mentioned in the other thread as well that dismissing a mediocre batting lineup like that of Hong Kong added to Mickey's delusion that the medium pacers are good enough for everyone in the tournament.


Hong Kong's performance against India was a one off thing but even if we talk about purely in terms of what happened in the second inns of that game then it was clear that Hong Kong's downfall was brought about by the spinners. They choked them even if they couldn't take wickets. Opening partnership was separated only when the captain felt the pressure to go big against Yadav and perished. We all saw how merrily were the opening batsmen going against Indian pacers till spinners were brought on. Even in the middle over with the oldish ball, Kumar and Thakur looked innocuous.

So the point is we might put enough runs against other teams in the upcoming matches but those runs might not be enough with this very bowling combination. If somehow this India/Hong Kong style of match plays out between Pakistan/Afghanistan, just remember India had Yadav and Chahal to stifle the run rate, we would have Shadab and at best Nawaz, both of whom are no way near as good as Chahal and Yadav.

 

[Pete Rose]

Unfortunately this burying the heads in sand mentality is what's prevalent amongst the team management as well - solely focusing on one suite of the team and thinking all is well about the other.

I mentioned in the other thread as well that dismissing a mediocre batting lineup like that of Hong Kong added to Mickey's delusion that the medium pacers are good enough for everyone in the tournament.


Hong Kong's performance against India was a one off thing but even if we talk about purely in terms of what happened in the second inns of that game then it was clear that Hong Kong's downfall was brought about by the spinners. They choked them even if they couldn't take wickets. Opening partnership was separated only when the captain felt the pressure to go big against Yadav and perished. We all saw how merrily were the opening batsmen going against Indian pacers till spinners were brought on. Even in the middle over with the oldish ball, Kumar and Thakur looked innocuous.

So the point is we might put enough runs against other teams in the upcoming matches but those runs might not be enough with this very bowling combination. If somehow this India/Hong Kong style of match plays out between Pakistan/Afghanistan, just remember India had Yadav and Chahal to stifle the run rate, we would have Shadab and at best Nawaz, both of whom are no way near as good as Chahal and Yadav.

thats all fine and well but the damage to Pakistan was caused by pacers and a part time spinner

 

[Seen Sheen]

thats all fine and well but the damage to Pakistan was caused by pacers and a part time spinner

The diabolical shot selection by the openers is what caused the initial damage. The pacers didn't bowl magic deliveries to get them out. Overs 5-10 showed that they were always coming onto the bat nicely and Fakhar-Imam just needed to bide their time.

Apart from initial disaster, the real damage was caused by Yadav first actually. He was the one who deceived Babar and had Malik dropped. Also, part time spinner flourished only after Yadav's breakthrough. Wicket taking spinner's effect made life easier for the part-timer.

In these conditions, who's more likely to bowl wicket-taking deliveries?

 

[Pete Rose]

The diabolical shot selection by the openers is what caused the initial damage. The pacers didn't bowl magic deliveries to get them out. Overs 5-10 showed that they were always coming onto the bat nicely and Fakhar-Imam just needed to bide their time.

Apart from initial disaster, the real damage was caused by Yadav first actually. He was the one who deceived Babar and had Malik dropped. Also, part time spinner flourished only after Yadav's breakthrough. Wicket taking spinner's effect made life easier for the part-timer.

In these conditions, who's more likely to bowl wicket-taking deliveries?

Hehe if you think that the openers just decided to randomly get dismissed and it had nothing to do with their opening bowlers then we are done here.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Having a lot of fast bowling options is good, but you also have to pick teams based on conditions.

You need a couple of fast bowlers who can stay in tight lines with the new ball (since the ball wont swing, atleast keep the run rate down), some spinners for the middle overs, and then the same fast bowlers who can also bowl reverse swing in the last few overs.

That should always be the formula for UAE.

 

[Seen Sheen]

Hehe if you think that the openers just decided to randomly get dismissed and it had nothing to do with their opening bowlers then we are done here.

It's pretty frustrating how you ignore rest of my post and focus on just a statement in isolation. I wrote that they didn't bowl any magical deliveries. They were just bowling tight lines and lengths, that's it. There was zero movement in the air or off the pitch. The openers could've easily reigned themselves in and focused on strike rotation. Sooner or later the pacers would've provided them with the opportunities to score (as we saw when Malik and Babar hit them for boundaries in the following overs).

Also, cross batted heaves against new ball on most pitches will land you in trouble. Low percentage option. Far better to go down the ground, over cover or even over point.

Again I will ask, who's likely to bowl "wicket-taking" deliveries on these pitches? 135-140 kph one dimensional pacers (1,2,3, 4 of them) or genuine spinners?

Another way of asking the question :

Who is more likely to get assistance off these tracks? Fast medium bowlers or spinners?

Our fast bowlers bowled tightly for first five overs but you saw afterwards how low the margin of error is on these pitches for 139-142 kph pacers. Slight width and batsman will flay you through point. Slightly full and he'll put you away through covers.

 

[Seen Sheen]

Having a lot of fast bowling options is good, but you also have to pick teams based on conditions.

You need a couple of fast bowlers who can stay in tight lines with the new ball (since the ball wont swing, atleast keep the run rate down), some spinners for the middle overs, and then the same fast bowlers who can also bowl reverse swing in the last few overs.

That should always be the formula for UAE.

Exactly. Just what I have been trying to say. Nobody is advocating to oust the pacers permanently from the team. You need them here as well in the team to tie things up and bowl stifling lines and lengths without too much experimentation. In other words, pacers have to complement the spinners here. And you need wicket taking spinners, not just some spinners to dart and attempt to block the flow of runs. No wickets, no stopping of run flow eventually.

In SA and next year during the World Cup, the pacers will rightly take the centre stage and spinners will take the back seat. But in these conditions, you are already handicapped when you take the field with pace heavy and spin light attack. That's like handing the advantage prior to the start of the game to your opposition with poor bowling combination.

 

[Seen Sheen]

New day, new game but the same old pattern - spinners wreaking havoc in UAE.

Too late to get someone for Afghanistan game but still have got time to send an SOS for a genuine spinner.

Mickey, if you keep disrespecting the conditions, sooner or later the barren and dead pitches will become a graveyard for your current bowling combo.

 

[Asif321]

Doesn’t matter we will get YO YO trophy
We don’t need skills we need fitness

 

[Markhor]

I remember people cried about Misbah "killing our pace bowling legacy" by adopting spin heavy attacks in UAE.

But on these slow, worn decks that's exactly what you need.

I've made it clear I'm no fan of Nawaz but UAE is one place where his selection makes sense, especially without Imad or a specialist spinner in the squad. He has to be the 2nd spinner - not Malik whose spin bowling hasn't been a threat since 2006.

 

[Seen Sheen]

I remember people cried about Misbah "killing our pace bowling legacy" by adopting spin heavy attacks in UAE.

But on these slow, worn decks that's exactly what you need.

I've made it clear I'm no fan of Nawaz but UAE is one place where his selection makes sense, especially without Imad or a specialist spinner in the squad. He has to be the 2nd spinner - not Malik whose spin bowling hasn't been a threat since 2006.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Misbah's selections as far as bowling was concerned. It was primarily poor batting choices that let the team down in ODI cricket during his era.