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Mike Hesson deserves appreciation for strengthening a strong all-rounder core for Pakistan in T20Is

RyanRyan10

RyanRyan10

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Saim Ayub has become the No.1 all rounder in the ICC T20I rankings. Shaheen Afridi, already a proven world class bowler, has started delivering game-changing knocks with the bat as well. Faheem Ashraf 2.0 is making his presence felt in both departments. Mohammad Nawaz 3.0 has also been a valuable addition to the team. He won Pakistan the tri series final with the ball and produced crucial knocks against Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Hussain Talat too chipped in with a match winning performance against Sri Lanka. Mike Hesson deserves appreciation for building Pakistan’s allrounder depth.
 
Mike Hesson is from Nzl where they have a limited pool of players with whom they try to maximize talent. For example Glen Phillips can bowl handy part timers but also keep. In subcontinent such issue is not there; plenty of options available.

Saim Ayub was a mercurial batting talent for Pakistans standards. His bowling should be a bonus. As a spinner I can bet there are 10 better ones in Pak itself and on current form can score more than Saim. So his improvement in bowling is not really a big deal.

His challenge would be to make a raw talent like Hassan Nawaz an all format batter. Then I will admit he is a great coach.
 
All I see are bits-and-pieces cricketers being hyped up as “all-rounders.” Let’s be real if you’re a dud in either batting or bowling, you’re not an all-rounder, you’re just half-baked.

And Saim Ayub is the the most overrated batter in Pakistan’s history. Forget being an all-rounder, he wouldn’t even get into the UAE playing XI as a pure batter. That’s the level we’re talking about.
 
I've never been in favour of these bits and pieces allrounders. For me the definition of an allrounder has to be someone who can contribute regularly in both disciplines. If they're a Star in one, that's a bonus but if not, they should at least be useful in both. Pandya, Stokes, Andre Russell are obvious examples.

To be honest, I'm changing my mind since they do seem to work when used as horses for courses in T20s. Shivam Dube is a prime example in India. He rarely bowls, bats only in specific situations (especially since we rarely have to go down that low) but somehow seems very useful when used right.

Pakistan's got too many for my liking though. There's a whole bunch who go through games not contributing in either discipline. Either Hesson's a genius and he's figured out something other teams haven't or he's taking this idea too far.
 
RainStopsPlay said:
All I see are bits-and-pieces cricketers being hyped up as “all-rounders.” Let’s be real if you’re a dud in either batting or bowling, you’re not an all-rounder, you’re just half-baked.

And Saim Ayub is the the most overrated batter in Pakistan’s history. Forget being an all-rounder, he wouldn’t even get into the UAE playing XI as a pure batter. That’s the level we’re talking about.
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Which UAE batter can produce a series winning performance against SA?
 
RyanRyan10 said:
Hesson's win% is 66.67
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Look at the quality of the opposition in those games. How many of those wins are against SENA and India?

The harsh reality is this:

9 straight losses against India (across ODI and T20Is)

Record against SENA is something like 4/25 during the past couple of years or so
 
Was impressed with Nawaz and Faheem’s late contributions in the last couple of months in the tri-series and Asia cup. They would have really solidified that if they had batted out the remaining overs in the final. Even if we had two overs of these two batting together, could have been matchwinning. Nawaz less at fault than Fahim who holed out immediately.

Shaheen - I’m sorry, is just a slogger. Useful, but if he wants to be taken seriously as a late order reliable hitter, really needs to use a bit of sense against spinners. Good against pace obviously.

Saim, I’m not overly convinced by his bowling and I would much rather have his batting form back.

Hesson should have concentrated on having the regular spinners be more effective than having to resort to Saim.
 
Lol, Nawaz and Faheem went missing with the bat against India under pressure, could not read, pick Kuldeep at all and didn't have the right technique to attach and defend against him.
 
Hesson is good with on-field strategies but not so effective at selecting the right player for the right role, maybe that selection process is controlled by PCB. The strangest part was him calling Nawaz the best spinner in the world, yet not even allowing him to bowl.
 
What all rounder core you are talking about? Nawaz ? who is proven failure at international level in crunch moments. Or Faheem ? Who because of slow pitches took some wickets. Where even Dubey and Talat looked like Mcgrath.
 
Red-Indian said:
I've never been in favour of these bits and pieces allrounders. For me the definition of an allrounder has to be someone who can contribute regularly in both disciplines. If they're a Star in one, that's a bonus but if not, they should at least be useful in both. Pandya, Stokes, Andre Russell are obvious examples.

To be honest, I'm changing my mind since they do seem to work when used as horses for courses in T20s. Shivam Dube is a prime example in India. He rarely bowls, bats only in specific situations (especially since we rarely have to go down that low) but somehow seems very useful when used right.

Pakistan's got too many for my liking though. There's a whole bunch who go through games not contributing in either discipline. Either Hesson's a genius and he's figured out something other teams haven't or he's taking this idea too far.
Click to expand...
I would like to see him grilled on this point and asked to explain because it does appear he has taken it too far, especially when at times the bits and pieces players don't even bowl.
 
TheSultan said:
Was impressed with Nawaz and Faheem’s late contributions in the last couple of months in the tri-series and Asia cup. They would have really solidified that if they had batted out the remaining overs in the final. Even if we had two overs of these two batting together, could have been matchwinning. Nawaz less at fault than Fahim who holed out immediately.

Shaheen - I’m sorry, is just a slogger. Useful, but if he wants to be taken seriously as a late order reliable hitter, really needs to use a bit of sense against spinners. Good against pace obviously.

Saim, I’m not overly convinced by his bowling and I would much rather have his batting form back.

Hesson should have concentrated on having the regular spinners be more effective than having to resort to Saim.
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Obviously different bowlers (righty and lefty) but Saim is a better bowler than Mohammed Nawaz. There really isn't room for Saim, Nawaz and Agha all in the side. Between them ( at the moment) they make one player.
 
AZulfi said:
Look at the quality of the opposition in those games. How many of those wins are against SENA and India?

The harsh reality is this:

9 straight losses against India (across ODI and T20Is)

Record against SENA is something like 4/25 during the past couple of years or so
Click to expand...
Most of these losses came before his tenure.

Hesson has taken up the job in the transition phase. You can't expect him to turn Pakistan into a top-tier side within months.
 
RyanRyan10 said:
Pakistan had lost to the USA, Ireland, Zimbabwe before his arrival
Click to expand...

The Pakistan coach during that time was Gary Kirsten who made India and South Africa No.1 and won a worldcup though.

I think Heeson’s skill is man-management.
Mickey Arthur did a good job of creating some good players- Babar Azam was his project. I think Shaheen, Nawaz, Faheem and Hasan Ali too. Heeson dropped Hassan Nawaz who I still think needs a lot of fixes but there is some talent here.
 
RyanRyan10 said:
Saim Ayub has become the No.1 all rounder in the ICC T20I rankings. Shaheen Afridi, already a proven world class bowler, has started delivering game-changing knocks with the bat as well. Faheem Ashraf 2.0 is making his presence felt in both departments. Mohammad Nawaz 3.0 has also been a valuable addition to the team. He won Pakistan the tri series final with the ball and produced crucial knocks against Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Hussain Talat too chipped in with a match winning performance against Sri Lanka. Mike Hesson deserves appreciation for building Pakistan’s allrounder depth.
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Agree with all except Talat. Talat is useless if he isn't bowling which he 90% isn't. Talat should be in odi tbf. But credit to him for Sri lanka win.

Muhammad Nawaz improved by leaps and bounds though. He proved me wrong and im glad to be proven wrong.

Shaheen was MVP of the tournament.

He clearly improved the lower order.

The weakest link is the middle order.

Strong opening, and strong lower order. Middle order needs to be fixed
 
RyanRyan10 said:
Pakistan had lost to the USA, Ireland, Zimbabwe before his arrival
Click to expand...
Did you not understand my question? I asked which game Number one allrounder has won in Asia Cup for Pakistan where he reached the number 1 ranking? I didn't asked what was happened earlier.

Answer my question instead talking nonsense.

:klopp :kp
 
mominsaigol said:
Agree with all except Talat. Talat is useless if he isn't bowling which he 90% isn't. Talat should be in odi tbf. But credit to him for Sri lanka win.

Muhammad Nawaz improved by leaps and bounds though. He proved me wrong and im glad to be proven wrong.

Shaheen was MVP of the tournament.

He clearly improved the lower order.

The weakest link is the middle order.

Strong opening, and strong lower order. Middle order needs to be fixed
Click to expand...

Shaheen is a great hitter and has hand eye coordination but he is extremely limited. Won’t come off all the time. He has 0 batting temperament. He connects a couple on his day, will boost the team, that’s about it.

Nawaz is as an excellent cricketer but it amazes me how he hasnt improved as a cricketer. I felt he had Jadeja level potential as a proper all format cricketer.He is still the same mercurial one day on one day off. Cricketer.
 
On the PCB podcast with Bazid Khan, Hesson was explicit about wanting players to contribute in more than one area and finds the notion of specialists outdated. He also said the all-rounders are needed for batting depth if we're to go hard with the bat. That's his philosophy whether we like it or not.

The problem is our all-rounders are generally mediocre and inconsistent. When was the last time we had a world-class all-rounder in any format ?
 
Devadwal said:
Did you not understand my question? I asked which game Number one allrounder has won in Asia Cup for Pakistan where he reached the number 1 ranking? I didn't asked what was happened earlier.

Answer my question instead talking nonsense.

:klopp :kp
Click to expand...
I understand fans want change. But not losing to USA who gave even India run for their money is a very low bar. Also even the current Indian team lost to Zimbabwe. Sa lost to Netherlands twice. Both ODI and T20. INln 2022 England lost to Ireland and went on to win the tournament. These kind of anamolies shouldn't be used as a criteria to build a team.
 
Red-Indian said:
I've never been in favour of these bits and pieces allrounders. For me the definition of an allrounder has to be someone who can contribute regularly in both disciplines. If they're a Star in one, that's a bonus but if not, they should at least be useful in both. Pandya, Stokes, Andre Russell are obvious examples.

To be honest, I'm changing my mind since they do seem to work when used as horses for courses in T20s. Shivam Dube is a prime example in India. He rarely bowls, bats only in specific situations (especially since we rarely have to go down that low) but somehow seems very useful when used right.

Pakistan's got too many for my liking though. There's a whole bunch who go through games not contributing in either discipline. Either Hesson's a genius and he's figured out something other teams haven't or he's taking this idea too far.
Click to expand...
Dube is a monster player.

6'5" hulk who can hit sixes at will without needing to get settled. Also decent bowler for non flat wickets.

Has improved his hitting vs pace and also has upped his own pace.

He has a near 30 average at a near 140 SR.

Pakistani ones are hardly as good as him.
 
saimayubera said:
Dube is a monster player.

6'5" hulk who can hit sixes at will without needing to get settled. Also decent bowler for non flat wickets.

Has improved his hitting vs pace and also has upped his own pace.

He has a near 30 average at a near 140 SR.

Pakistani ones are hardly as good as him.
Click to expand...

Have a newfound respect for sir Dube. Those 6s against Rauf and Saim were monstrous. Even his mistimes almost go for 6 lol.

Bowling thanks to Pakistan batters has shades of Hazelwood but feel one of England or Aus batsmen or Klassen will give him a phainta of a lifetime one day 😭
 
Local.Dada said:
Have a newfound respect for sir Dube. Those 6s against Rauf and Saim were monstrous. Even his mistimes almost go for 6 lol.

Bowling thanks to Pakistan batters has shades of Hazelwood but feel one of England or Aus batsmen or Klassen will give him a phainta of a lifetime one day 😭
Click to expand...
On flat pitches he will go for runs.

Pitches with a bit of help can use his height and change of pace.
 
saimayubera said:
Dube is a monster player.

6'5" hulk who can hit sixes at will without needing to get settled. Also decent bowler for non flat wickets.

Has improved his hitting vs pace and also has upped his own pace.

He has a near 30 average at a near 140 SR.

Pakistani ones are hardly as good as him.
Click to expand...
Sure. He's a luxury though

Out of the 41 games he's played for India
He's only batted 30 times in which he's made 581 runs. Strike rate is also not fearsome - 139
He's only bowled in 29 games and that too a total of 363 balls or 30 overs

So essentially we need 1 over bowled and maybe 15 runs off 11 balls from him in an average game. Obviously averages hide the real utility like when we got 3 overs out of him in the final but even so.

It's great to be able to afford such luxuries and we can do that because we're an incredible T20 team and he's the only one but Pakistan seems to have filled their middle order with such luxury players.
 
Red-Indian said:
Sure. He's a luxury though

Out of the 41 games he's played for India
He's only batted 30 times in which he's made 581 runs. Strike rate is also not fearsome - 139
He's only bowled in 29 games and that too a total of 363 balls or 30 overs

So essentially we need 1 over bowled and maybe 15 runs off 11 balls from him in an average game. Obviously averages hide the real utility like when we got 3 overs out of him in the final but even so.

It's great to be able to afford such luxuries and we can do that because we're an incredible T20 team and he's the only one but Pakistan seems to have filled their middle order with such luxury players.
Click to expand...

He is a tremendous 6 hitter. Kind of when he comes off can hit 2-3 6s in an over especially against spinners or get you that 20+ over and change the course of the game like he did somewhat the other day. His bowling surprised me. As a pure bat maybe not but he does have a lot of utility. He can get stuck on low surfaces usually but he can be totally destructive on his day.
 
This is what I hate about what t20 has done to the game. Class players show their worth the longer a game goes, but in t20s there’s like 5-7 mini battles to be won.

A bits n pieces cricketer at times can win a small battle and for the strategists it justifies their selection.

Unfortunately we’re going to get bits n pieces cricketers, dibbly dibbly trundlers and darting spinners.
 
There are very few genuine all rounders in the history of cricket. In modern cricket Pakistan or any team cannot afford tailenders from number 7 to 11.

You need to find ways to get better , may be have bowlers who can hold bat , or have some batters who can bowl a few overs. It is necessary evil.
 
Devadwal said:
Did you not understand my question? I asked which game Number one allrounder has won in Asia Cup for Pakistan where he reached the number 1 ranking? I didn't asked what was happened earlier.

Answer my question instead talking nonsense.

:klopp :kp
Click to expand...
I could not understand what you asked because of your English. Anyway, the answer to your question is that this set of players returned with a tri series win and a runners up finish in the Asia Cup from the UAE. This team is in a transition phase and cannot be expected to be a dominant side for now. It's a simple point but it seems you have difficulty grasping it.
 
Pakistan has no real allrounder. What it has are bits and pieces players who can neither bat nor bowl.

To call the travesty we saw in the Asia cup as “allrounder core” is truly an insult to genuine allrounders of the game.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Faheem will be absolutely useless on flatter tracks.
Click to expand...
Pakistan Does not have a team for flatter tracks. Period.

They tried that experiment in test and odi for 3+ years. In test they got mauled, and in odi they bashed minnows and simply lucked out vs NZ odi series.

It was NZ c team but even ignoring that, Fakhar pulled off 2 one hit wonders followed a decent score in the 3rd odi.

Pakistan only won the 4th odi where babar managed to perform.

Without Fakhar it would have been a 4-1 drubbing. That series where he was tonking 70, 114 and 180 was just his day.

By asia cup India and by some extension Sri lanka burst that bubble.

NZ at full strength mauled Pakistan 6x on flat tracks.

Pakistan's best bet is play on spin tracks where they can upset bigger teams except for India who are use to such tracks.

Or play on bouncy conditons. Historically Pakistan is terrible in test amd t20 on bouncy tracks but surprisingly does well in odi vs Aus.

Even During the old days the likes of Ijaz, Inzi really enjoyed batting in aus. Saeed Anwar didn't tbf.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hyperbole exaggerated, it seems Mike Hesson has made these rellu kattas into Mark Waugh, Andrew Flintoff and Yuvraj Singh , whereas the reality is these players occasionally step up and give an odd performance more than their calibre. Also OP failed to mention the Captain Agha who is also suppose to be an allrounder. What has Hesson turned him into :sree
 
RyanRyan10 said:
I could not understand what you asked because of your English. Anyway, the answer to your question is that this set of players returned with a tri series win and a runners up finish in the Asia Cup from the UAE. This team is in a transition phase and cannot be expected to be a dominant side for now. It's a simple point but it seems you have difficulty grasping it.
Click to expand...
You didn't understand my question yet giving the explanation now . Don't hide behind my weak English.

But again your explanation is in wrong direction.

Here asking you again same question.

How many games Number one allrounder have won for Pakistan in Asia cup where he achieved the number one ranking .

For example - Abhishek achieved his highest ever T20 ranking points during the Asia Cup, but his ranking was also justified because he single-handedly won multiple matches for India in the Asia Cup.

:kp
 
mominsaigol said:
Middle order needs to be fixed
Click to expand...
Le Hasan Nawaz in Asia Cup

Pick Me

cat-cat-jumping.gif
 
Well done Mike Hesson for unearthing Shaheen, Saim, Faheem, Nawaz & Talat. All these debutants were given a chance by Hesson and Pakistan lost 3-0 to India
👏
 
Devadwal said:
You didn't understand my question yet giving the explanation now . Don't hide behind my weak English.

But again your explanation is in wrong direction.

Here asking you again same question.

How many games Number one allrounder have won for Pakistan in Asia cup where he achieved the number one ranking .

For example - Abhishek achieved his highest ever T20 ranking points during the Asia Cup, but his ranking was also justified because he single-handedly won multiple matches for India in the Asia Cup.

:kp
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Babar and Rizwan used to be no.1 and no.2 t20i batters. What was Pakistan winning then?
 
Hesson's coaching has been the only bright spot for this team so far. It's refreshing to see a coach that atleast has plans and tries to get players to play according to those plans. Whether they are tactically the right plans is another queation.

He was visibly agitated when Rauf didn't follow the bowling plan of bowling wide Yorkers. His thinking behind including Talat in the lineup was also right. He picked horses for courses. Not his fault if those horses aren't good enough
 
RyanRyan10 said:
Babar and Rizwan used to be no.1 and no.2 t20i batters. What was Pakistan winning then?
Click to expand...
Yar Babar/ rizwan kha se aa gye ? 🤣🤣 Wo to Asia cup khele hi nahi hai.

We are talking about allrounders here . Apni thread ke titles to pad le ek bar ?

Stop Babar/ rizwan obsession for once and answer my question without hiding my weak English or RizBar.

:kp
 
Markhor said:
On the PCB podcast with Bazid Khan, Hesson was explicit about wanting players to contribute in more than one area and finds the notion of specialists outdated. He also said the all-rounders are needed for batting depth if we're to go hard with the bat. That's his philosophy whether we like it or not.

The problem is our all-rounders are generally mediocre and inconsistent. When was the last time we had a world-class all-rounder in any format ?
Click to expand...
The all rounders did bail out Pakistan on more than one occasion

I think Hesson’s strategy is fine.

The specialist batters need to pull their weight though.
 
Kianig89 said:
Hyperbole exaggerated, it seems Mike Hesson has made these rellu kattas into Mark Waugh, Andrew Flintoff and Yuvraj Singh , whereas the reality is these players occasionally step up and give an odd performance more than their calibre. Also OP failed to mention the Captain Agha who is also suppose to be an allrounder. What has Hesson turned him into :sree
Click to expand...
Teri bhi jall rahi hai?

Why? Because he doesn’t believe in your King and Queen??

Shakhsiyat parast!
 
Devadwal said:
Yar Babar/ rizwan kha se aa gye ? 🤣🤣 Wo to Asia cup khele hi nahi hai.

We are talking about allrounders here . Apni thread ke titles to pad le ek bar ?

Stop Babar/ rizwan obsession for once and answer my question without hiding my weak English or RizBar.

:kp
Click to expand...
Saim Ayub bowled well in every match. He can't win you games single handedly with his bowling. Cricket is a team sport.
 
RyanRyan10 said:
Saim Ayub bowled well in every match. He can't win you games single handedly with his bowling. Cricket is a team sport.
Click to expand...
Not just his bowling but both with batting and bowling like number one allrounder Pandya has won for india .

You can't be number one allrounder if you can't win the match single Handley either with bat / ball or both.

:kp
 
Devadwal said:
Not just his bowling but both with batting and bowling like number one allrounder Pandya has won for india .

You can't be number one allrounder if you can't win the match single Handley either with bat / ball or both.

:kp
Click to expand...
So, you are hurt with Hardik losing the no.1 spot. I understood it now.
 
RyanRyan10 said:
So, you are hurt with Hardik losing the no.1 spot. I understood it now.
Click to expand...
Don't change your Goalpost when you can't answer my question. I don't care if Hardik Remain number one allrounder or not as long as he is winning the match for india

Whole cricketing World knows who is the Hardik Pandya. There is zero comparison between both of them. 🤣🤣

:klopp :kp
 
Devadwal said:
Don't change your Goalpost when you can't answer my question. I don't care if Hardik Remain number one allrounder or not as long as he is winning the match for india

Whole cricketing World knows who is the Hardik Pandya. There is zero comparison between both of them. 🤣🤣

:klopp :kp
Click to expand...

Hardik is obviously better. But why do you have a problem with me mentioning that Saim Ayub is the new no.1 allrounder in the rankings?
 
RyanRyan10 said:
Hardik is obviously better. But why do you have a problem with me mentioning that Saim Ayub is the new no.1 allrounder in the rankings?
Click to expand...
I don't have any problem but asked you how many games he have won for Pakistan in the process to becomes number one Ranking.

You ,@Rana & agenda brigades used to bashed Babar ,Rizwan for number one ranking but here you same brigade Praising saim Ayub for achieving The Number one ranking.

This only showed you guys have clearly a agenda against certain players. #Exposed

:klopp :kp
 
Devadwal said:
I don't have any problem but asked you how many games he have won for Pakistan in the process to becomes number one Ranking.

You ,@Rana & agenda brigades used to bashed Babar ,Rizwan for number one ranking but here you same brigade Praising saim Ayub for achieving The Number one ranking.

This only showed you guys have clearly a agenda against certain players. #Exposed

:klopp :kp
Click to expand...
We all are different people. You need to understand this first
:facepalm
 
He has the right idea but the skill-level of alot of these guys is not really up to the required standard. But that's just where Pakistan cricket is right now. They don't exactly have a vibrant pool of top-class talent, so they will have to make due with what they have. The best they can hope for is that these players get better with time and experience.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
He has the right idea but the skill-level of alot of these guys is not really up to the required standard. But that's just where Pakistan cricket is right now. They don't exactly have a vibrant pool of top-class talent, so they will have to make due with what they have. The best they can hope for is that these players get better with time and experience.
Click to expand...
He has spent enough time in IPL to know what works here what doesn't work here. Teams with depth always prevailed here. He has the right idea. But personnel that are available at his disposal are either unfinished or unqualified. I am not sure how these guys can learn T20 on the job. They need to be atleast 90% ready before getting their feet wet in the internationals. Most of these guys are barely 50% ready.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
He has spent enough time in IPL to know what works here what doesn't work here. Teams with depth always prevailed here. He has the right idea. But personnel that are available at his disposal are either unfinished or unqualified. I am not sure how these guys can learn T20 on the job. They need to be atleast 90% ready before getting their feet wet in the internationals. Most of these guys are barely 50% ready.
Click to expand...
What better place is there for them to learn T20 if not on the job? Not like they are playing the IPL. Heck, if PCB has their way they might not be playing in any major T20 leagues going forward.
 
Markhor said:
On the PCB podcast with Bazid Khan, Hesson was explicit about wanting players to contribute in more than one area and finds the notion of specialists outdated. He also said the all-rounders are needed for batting depth if we're to go hard with the bat. That's his philosophy whether we like it or not.

The problem is our all-rounders are generally mediocre and inconsistent. When was the last time we had a world-class all-rounder in any format ?
Click to expand...
Specialists are not overrated. The need for allrounders and batting depth is real enough though.

Problem for PAK is not the combination. It's the personnel or lack thereof.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Specialists are not overrated. The need for allrounders and batting depth is real enough though.

Problem for PAK is not the combination. It's the personnel or lack thereof.
Click to expand...
Yup. Structure is correct. No one plays w/o batting till 8.

Don't think anyone has won a T20 WC w/o batting till 8. Aus in 2021 played 4 bowlers but Starc+Cummins is one batsman in between them.

3 specialist wicket taking bowlers are good enough with 2-3 economical ARs who can be deployed according to phase/matchup.

Pakistan's issue is lack of quality.
 
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