What's new

Modi parades his hatred of Muslims — and makes a mockery of India’s constitution

1. Read UIDAI act. Aadhar is not proof of citizenship.

2. What documents will be used as oroof of citizenship for nationwide NRC have not been notified.

3. Home ministry put out a FAQ on NRC. Read it.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....-releases-faq-on-nrc-and-caa-4750891.html/amp

4. We are not thekedaars of what will happen to XYZ person of neighbouring country. We are doing them a favour by giving them an option of getting indian citizenship. You are talking as if we are bound to provide for people from BD and Pak.

Huh?

Not sure where you got that from.

I am talking for people of India.

Many indians (regardless of religion) will struggle to provide all proof.

The protest, debate and everything revolves around PROTECTING Indian citizens.
 

It says proof of religion.

From the article you posted:

The Citizenship (Amendment) Act (CAA) rules are expected to seek “proof of religion” as mentioned in government records, a senior official of the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) said on Monday.

Yeah ok...just religion.

How does this change anything in the discussion?

Also from the same article

The West Bengal Legislative Assembly on Monday passed a resolution opposing the CAA. The Rajasthan, Kerala and Punjab Assemblies had passed a similar resolution. Punjab Chief Minister Capt. Amarinder Singh wrote an open letter on January 3 that the CAA could be misused for infiltration in the country as “any person claiming to be of the six religions could simply apply in terms of the amended law, prove entry on/before the cut off date and be eligible for citizenship.”

I see.

An official said that all applications under the CAA would have to be made online and the final decision to grant citizenship rested with the MHA

In other words, discretionary.

---

What exactly does this article prove?
 
Huh?

Not sure where you got that from.

I am talking for people of India.

Many indians (regardless of religion) will struggle to provide all proof.

The protest, debate and everything revolves around PROTECTING Indian citizens.

So someone has lived all his life in India but has never voted, never got ration, never went to any govt office to get any document. Same is the case with his entire family on both sides extending to two generation back.

Please tell me if i go to any country tommorow and say i have no documents, but i am your citizen will i be given citizenship.
 
It says proof of religion.

From the article you posted:



Yeah ok...just religion.

How does this change anything in the discussion?

Also from the same article



I see.



In other words, discretionary.

---

What exactly does this article prove?

It shows that there is no blanket case of giving citizenship. They have to prove by documents that they entered India before 2014 and are from one of the six religions.

So everyone has to show documents.

See what?
 
So someone has lived all his life in India but has never voted, never got ration, never went to any govt office to get any document. Same is the case with his entire family on both sides extending to two generation back.

Please tell me if i go to any country tommorow and say i have no documents, but i am your citizen will i be given citizenship.

People could be voting, using ration and do all the stuff and STILL could be denied citizenship.

That's the issue.

Not why you are making it as if people have no CURRENT documents.
 
People could be voting, using ration and do all the stuff and STILL could be denied citizenship.

That's the issue.

Not why you are making it as if people have no CURRENT documents.

Have you read the citizenship act?

Anyone born in India till 31 dec 1986 is an Indian. So all you have to show is your document with date of birth. Thats mentioned in passport PAN Voter Id 10th or 12th pass certificate and so on.

Those born after 1987 have to prove that one of their parents is Indian. Again all documents mentioned above have parents name.
 
It shows that there is no blanket case of giving citizenship. They have to prove by documents that they entered India before 2014 and are from one of the six religions.

So everyone has to show documents.

See what?

I can see this development is new with timeline showing 10 hours to 1 day.

Ok then...

Let me know what's this (Indian Express has quoted it)

“For example, if someone has enrolled his/ her children in a government school, he/ she would have declared their religion. If someone has acquired Aadhaar before December 31, 2014 and has declared his/ her religion as being from among the six mentioned in the Act, it would be acceptable… Any form of government document declaring religion will be accepted,” said the official.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/caa-rules-proof-of-religion-home-ministry-6238539/

If this is true...do you see the problem with the national rollout?

Hindus will escape via CAA.

But Muslims will not.

----

Also what is this whole deal about this official said and that official said which articles are quoting?

Why isn't it all set in stone?

Anyways, let's chuck that for now and get to it later.

---

Let me know how ACCEPTING Aadhar before 2014 as proof of religion makes this a fair deal for all?
 
Have you read the citizenship act?

Anyone born in India till 31 dec 1986 is an Indian. So all you have to show is your document with date of birth. Thats mentioned in passport PAN Voter Id 10th or 12th pass certificate and so on.

Those born after 1987 have to prove that one of their parents is Indian. Again all documents mentioned above have parents name.

Have you read the citizenship act?

Anyone born in India till 31 dec 1986 is an Indian. So all you have to show is your document with date of birth. Thats mentioned in passport PAN Voter Id 10th or 12th pass certificate and so on.

Those born after 1987 have to prove that one of their parents is Indian. Again all documents mentioned above have parents name.

There are 2 issues here.

Let's define them.

Issue 1 - One set (non Muslims) gets away with NOT having to prove their citizenship by just waving their Aadhar.

They get protected by CAA which was designed for prosecuted minorities but the way its structured, it could help any non Muslim. Don't you see anything discrimination here?

Issue 2 - Muslims having to prove citizenship.

They can do it via 2 ways:

Way 1 - Prove you are born before 1986.

Now for most people it should be ok. However date of birth for poorest of poor people is going to be hard.

1. 10th or 12th certificate is all not even applicable cos we are talking about the super poor.
2. Passport - obviously not possible
3. PAN, Voter ID - this is possible for active voters but I am really not too sure how many can furnish this.

But yeah this is a good point and I will think it over.

Way 2 - Prove parents are Indian.

If parents are super poor hence didn't have date or birth documents, what course of action do these people have cos their documents won't work? Floods in chennai DESTROYED the USA VISA documents of my family and we had to get it all again. Think about poor people.

----

Regardless of whether they can furnish or not...there are 2 things here:

1. Discrimination based on religion

2. Having to go through a cumbersome process where you COULD be a victim of beareucratic screw ups (you could become stateless ) or you would have to fork out money (bribe) to get it sorted (it doesn't matter who heads this - on a national scale things are going to get messy)...

---

Let me know your thoughts and I will get back to you tomorrow.
 
I can see this development is new with timeline showing 10 hours to 1 day.

Ok then...

Let me know what's this (Indian Express has quoted it)



https://indianexpress.com/article/india/caa-rules-proof-of-religion-home-ministry-6238539/

If this is true...do you see the problem with the national rollout?

Hindus will escape via CAA.

But Muslims will not.

----

Also what is this whole deal about this official said and that official said which articles are quoting?

Why isn't it all set in stone?

Anyways, let's chuck that for now and get to it later.

---

Let me know how ACCEPTING Aadhar before 2014 as proof of religion makes this a fair deal for all?
They are accepting aadhar as proof of religion. Not proof of citizenship.
 
They are accepting aadhar as proof of religion. Not proof of citizenship.

Religion proof + date of entry opens pathway for citizenship (for non Muslims).

You responded to #78 (where links and quotes about CAA are mentioned) with a link to Hindu article.

It really changes nothing as an Aadhar can solve the issue for non-Muslims.
 
Religion proof + date of entry opens pathway for citizenship (for non Muslims).

You responded to #78 (where links and quotes about CAA are mentioned) with a link to Hindu article.

It really changes nothing as an Aadhar can solve the issue for non-Muslims.

Date of birth in Aadhar also proves the citizenship of those who were born before 1987.
 
Date of birth in Aadhar also proves the citizenship of those who were born before 1987.

Good point.

So what's the purpose of NRC if this is all is needed.

Aadhar is enough to prove your citizenship if you are born before 1987.

Voter ID of your parents is enough to prove your citizenship.

Govt has all the data so it can round up those who are not registered and question them.

Why NRC?

But we also seem to get statements like Aadhar, voter ID are not citizenship documents yet seems like this is enough to prove citizenship.

---

I did a quick search and seems like I am not the only one wondering this:

Technically speaking, if all one has to do is, say, provide a birth certificate to have his/her name entered in the Citizens Register, the same needed to get an Aadhaar card or be on the voters' list, why this process at all? After all, the government says more than 120 crore Indians‚ pretty much the entire adult population, has an Aadhaar card, so surely it has the data it needs anyway. In a way, that would render the whole NRC exercise self-defeating.

The government in its clarification indicated that "citizenship can be proved by submitting any documents related to date of birth and place of birth" and these documents are "likely to include voter cards, passports, Aadhaar, licenses, insurance papers, birth certificates, school leaving certificates, documents relating to land or home or other similar documents issued by government officials".

This is bizarre because the Supreme Court in its Justice KS Puttaswamy (Retd) and another ..... Petitioner(s) And Others said, "An Aadhaar number also does not, by itself, constitute a conferment of a right of citizenship, or domicile." The verdict also said that "Section 9 of the (Aadhaar) Act, 2016 is also unconstitutional in as much as the Aadhaar number is de facto serving as proof of citizenship and domicile."

Aadhaar was always said to be a proof of residence, a bit like a US social security card, and not citizenship. However, the government has now mentioned the same documents that will yield proof of citizenship.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/f...leaves-some-questions-unanswered-2431307.html
 
What scares me is how alot of World Leaders these days have a shameless an open hatred for Muslims
- Trump
- Bo Jhonson
- Modi
- Aung San Suu Kyi
- Netanyahu (but I guess that has always been by default)
 
Absence of legacy data

The whole NRC exercise in Assam was based on proof of citizenship. "All the names appearing in the NRC, 1951, or any of the Electoral Rolls up to the midnight of 24th March, 1971 together are called Legacy Data," the official Assam NRC website said.

The legacy data was critical for the citizens residing in the state "in order to prove linkage with parent or ancestor" through "any legally acceptable document which establishes the relationship in clear terms between (1) the member of the family, and (2) the name of person whose name appears Legacy Data or any of the admissible documents issued upto midnight of 24th March, 1971". Without Legacy Data, NRC is at best a futile exercise.

It is surprising that the government said that unlike Assam, "for the rest of the country, the NRC process is completely different and under The Citizenship (Registration of Citizens and Issue of National Identity Cards) Rules, 2003." However, the NRC process in Assam as mentioned above was also under The Citizenship (Registration of Citizens and Issue of National Identity Cards) Rules, 2003.

The absence of "pre-1971 genealogy" like Assam actually weakens the very purpose of having a register of citizens.

The rules in The Citizenship (Registration of Citizens and Issue of National Identity Cards) Rules, 2003 say: "particulars of such individuals, whose citizenship is doubtful, shall be entered by the Local Registrar with appropriate remark in the Population Register for further enquiry and in case of doubtful citizenship, the individual or the family shall be informed in a specified proforma immediately after the verification process is over".

While it is clear that simply handing in documents isn’t enough, the local registrar will scrutinise them and make a list of doubtful entries. Secondly, there is no listed criteria for the basis on which the registrar may make such a determination. Many Muslims fear, rightly or wrongly, that local authorities will discriminate against them, which, given experience in Assam, isn’t entirely paranoiac.

In addition, there is the even more well-founded fear of administrative arbitrariness and bribe-seeking. Finally, the rules nowhere say how the registrar will determine the legitimacy or otherwise of a claim. The local registrar, after all, is not a trained investigator.


It may be mentioned that on 22 November, 2017, the apex court had said that the certificate of residency issued by the gram panchayat is not a document of citizenship and is "meaningless" unless supported by some other valid record to make a claim for inclusion in the NRC process that was going on then in Assam. However, on 5 December, 2017, the Supreme Court reversed its observation that certificates issued by panchayat secretary or an executive magistrate can be used for claiming citizenship only if they have been issued after conducting proper enquiries. But the apex court issued no guidelines on how to conduct proper enquiries.

Without 'old documents' NRC will be of no value

The government assurance on the relaxation of rules on the need for "old documents" that "the rules and instructions will be made for it in such a way that no one will face any trouble" is only a precursor to a pointless exercise that the government may undertake in the future. Simply put, without proper documentation however hard it may be to collect them, the authenticity of the NRC will be under question.

It is also unclear how an application for inclusion in the NRC can be made purely on the basis that the head of the family has his inclusion in the voter rolls. It doesn’t say how the registrar will determine whether or not that individual is a citizen of India.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/f...leaves-some-questions-unanswered-2431307.html

If someone can simplify this for me, I would be grateful. :)
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Yesterday, speaking to Indian Express about CAA-NRC, Minister Javdekar said "Everybody has an Aadhaar card now. This is enough"<br><br>Two days ago, speaking to Times Now, Shah said "Aadhaar card is not enough"<br><br>This is both Incompetency & Malice. BJP is purposefully confusing people. <a href="https://t.co/SIUO3EGsBF">pic.twitter.com/SIUO3EGsBF</a></p>— Srivatsa (@srivatsayb) <a href="https://twitter.com/srivatsayb/status/1208278193074913280?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 21, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
What scares me is how alot of World Leaders these days have a shameless an open hatred for Muslims
- Trump
- Bo Jhonson
- Modi
- Aung San Suu Kyi
- Netanyahu (but I guess that has always been by default)

Simple cos it works.

While these people are crazy no doubt, the issue is that what they speak connects with the lizard brain of others.

Muslims make a huge hue and cry about their religion and that rubs people the wrong way. Of course, I am not talking about all muslims or even most muslims but this is the issue.

Which opens them up to be victims of this psychological trigger:

“People will do anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions, and help them throw rocks at their enemies.”
 
Modi will publicly order the killings of Muslims, but you can bet that his supporters will come here defending him with all sorts of mental gymnastics.
 
UP: Muslim Families Put up ‘For Sale’ Signs Outside Homes in Shamli, Some Flee, Citing Police Brutality

Lucknow: In a development reminiscent of the Kairana exodus, over two hundred Muslim families of Taprana village in Shamli town in Muzzafarnagar district, Uttar Pradesh, have alleged that they were being persecuted for being a religious minority by the local police at the behest of the Yogi Adityanath government. They have threatened to leave the area where they were born, grew up and built their homes.

Ever since the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) formed the government in the state in 2017, and Yogi Adityanath assumed the office of Chief Minister, there has been a history of allegations of police discrimination. This is not the first time when Muslims have threatened an exodus due to alleged police persecution in the state.

According to local Muslim residents, Shamli has seen repeated incidents of harassment and alleged one-sided action by the police, inciting communal tensions, in clashes between Hindus and Muslims. The local Muslims have put up 'for sale’ signs outside their houses, requesting people to buy the properties so that they could vacate them. “Yeh makan bikau hai. Hum police aur uske mukhbir dwara ki gayi tod-fod se pidhit ho kar gaon se palayan par majboor hai! Hamare bacchey aur aurtein mansik taur par pidhit ho kar gaon chodne par majboor hain. (This house is for sale. We are suffering due to vandalism by the police and its informers and are forced to flee. Our children and women are mentally disturbed and forced to leave the village)," read posters and banners that have appeared on several dozen houses in the Taprana area, part of Shamli city.

"On May 25, a team of Uttar Pradesh police came here to arrest a person called Afzal, who had been accused of cow slaughter, and was in jail for a year in 2019. When he stepped out from jail, he was banished from the city and district for six months. When the period was over, he returned home to celebrate Eid with his family. An informer told the police about Afzal. The very next day, the police landed up at his home and wanted to arrest him again since the six-month period was not over and a few days were left. When villagers opposed the arrest, a scuffle broke out between cops and local residents," Nasir, a resident of the area, told NewsClick.

"The next day, at around 3 a.m., a heavy contingent of police entered the village to arrest Afzal. When the villagers confronted the police and tried to stop the detention, the cops deliberately ransacked Muslim homes, misbehaved with women, looted cash and jewellery. Those who opposed them were beaten mercilessly by the police," he added.

According to the residents, the washbasin, bathroom, bed, furniture, fridge, utensils and other items were broken and strewn all over. “We assured the police that we will hand over Afzal and they can take whatever action they please, but the police did not pay any heed as they had already planned to target us, using Afzal as a pretext," another resident of the area, who wished to remain anonymous, said. He added that they were being targeted because “we are Muslims. A group of policemen came to our homes, they abused us, harassed the women and threatened the children.”

Hamid Miftani, another resident of Taprana, had a similar story to tell. “At least 150 Muslim families have migrated to other places due to police high-handedness, a day after the police went on a rampage. Ever since the lockdown was announced by the Prime Minister, police raids in our village have become routine. This is the fourth such incident in two months. Before this incident, three people were taken into custody in a different case," he added.

A woman, whose home was looted, and her household items smashed, told NewsClick on the condition of anonymity that they did not know who Afzal was and what crime he had committed. “But the way policemen were furious and beat us up, it seemed they came with a target, which was to kill us. There were no female police officers in sight and they were brutalising women," she said.

Fear and anxiety have gripped the Muslim community in Taprana, a Muslim-majority area of western Uttar Pradesh. Tensions have mounted after over 28 people were sent to jail.

"The police do not act like a neutral agency, they tend to prosecute Muslims only. Many members of the community migrated to other places due to police high-handedness. This is not the first time that Muslims have been targeted either. Earlier, when nationwide protests against the CAA/NRC were ongoing, there were similar instances of harassment by the UP police," said Faiyaz Khan, another local from Taprana. “People are scared after the recent conduct shown by the police – the way policemen have treated women, children and vandalised our homes," he added.

A case has been registered against 100 people under various sections of the Indian Penal Code (IPC), and 30 people from among them have been arrested so far, Superintendent of Police, Vineet Jaiswal, confirmed to NewsClick.

"On May 26, a police team had gone to arrest two people who had been accused of cow slaughter, when some villagers started pelting stones and managed to free him," Jaiswal told NewsClick. He said that 26 people had been arrested and two had surrendered in court.

When questioned about the residents’ claims that the police barged into their houses and smashed their belongings, the SP rejected the accusation of police brutality. “The police were conducting a raid. They wanted to arrest those accused of cow slaughter who had been banished and returned home before the six-month period was over. We only wanted to take him into custody," he said.

This is not the first time that such an incident has been reported from western Uttar Pradesh. In 2017, a Muslim family in Meerut was forced to leave their house after the Hindu population in the hamlet objected to their presence.

https://www.newsclick.in/UP-Muslim-...ide-Homes-Shamli-Flee-Citing-Police-Brutality
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Taprana residents said that, on 27 May, around 200 UP police and PAC personnel ransacked and looted their homes, and severely beat up dozens of Muslim villagers—including a 13-year-old girl and a 30-year-old man with a mental disability. <a href="https://twitter.com/SunilK07638741?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@SunilK07638741</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/shahidtantray?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@shahidtantray</a> in: <a href="https://t.co/9HJtPCz42n">pic.twitter.com/9HJtPCz42n</a></p>— The Caravan (@thecaravanindia) <a href="https://twitter.com/thecaravanindia/status/1273593807620263936?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The head of European Parliament’s panel cautioned India against targeting religious minorities in the country, particularly Muslims and urged the Narendra Modi government to meet its pledge to promote and protect human rights.<a href="https://t.co/78gPayCZ6X">https://t.co/78gPayCZ6X</a></p>— IndianAmericanMuslimCouncil (@IAMCouncil) <a href="https://twitter.com/IAMCouncil/status/1315087415888023555?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Back
Top