Mohammad Abbas and Vernon Philander

[Fahdi]

2 of a kind it seems.

When Abbas first came on and put up a few good performances I thought he can be an inferior version of Philander for us. They both were similar sort of bowlers though Vernon was clearly ahead in skill level.

Now I think its time to reevaluate the initial assessment. Abbas since the county stint has seemed to me as a different bowler altogether. His seam position, the way he uses the crease and the attacking lines he bowls now he seems to me as either on par with Philander.

Abbas at the moment has a test average of 16 and Philander had a similar average when he first burst on to the scene. Philander has had the luxury of being partnered with 2 extremely capable bowlers who complemented him well, first Dale Steyn and now Rabada. Abbas on the other hand is having to carry the pace attack it seems. While guys like Abbas and Vern prove that you don't need pace to get wickets having speed through the air is inevitably an asset and opens up new avenues for wicket taking. While Philander focuses on keeping things tight and probing away at the batsmen his partners on the other end can go after the batsmen with the short stuff, in other scenarios with Vern keeping things tight the other bowler gets the license to attack the batsmen and can risk going for a few.

Bowlers hunt in pairs is how the saying goes. Sooner or later teams are going to start figuring Abbas out and while I have no doubt over Abbas's capabilities he can be negated if the other end doesn't pose enough of a threat. Pakistan needs to find a partner for Abbas and, if South Africa's example is anything to go by, one with a bit a of pace as well as the skill so that they can pose a different sort of threat as compared to Abbas. Perhaps Shaheen but he is too raw, Hassan Ali showed good signs early on but he seems to be fading away a little, Amir has shown to be more hype than real substance.

Though I would be the last person to turn away another bowler like Abbas in an ideal scenario I would rather have bowler in the mould of someone like Rabada, Steyn or Mitchel Johnson. Someone with skill and discipline yes but also some pace as it will give us more options for attack.

Your Views?

 

[Savak]

One thing I notice and like about Abbas is how quickly he cleans up the tail with his reverse swing even though he operates at 127-132 km/hr. Just goes to show some people know how to get wickets regardless of pace.

 

[Justcrazy]

Abbas is a very steady bowlers , sticks to the basics most of the times , that is his strength.

 

[Fahdi]

One thing I notice and like about Abbas is how quickly he cleans up the tail with his reverse swing even though he operates at 127-132 km/hr. Just goes to show some people know how to get wickets regardless of pace.

Any successful bowler who operate in the lower speed category has good bowling acumen. They don't survive otherwise. Asif, Philander, Abbas, McGrath are prime examples.

 

[WengerOut]

Abbas has performed better than Philander in unresponsive pitches.

 

[giri26]

Abbas has performed better than Philander in unresponsive pitches.

Not a fair comparison. Mohammad Abbas has just played 9 Tests. Philander has good record in Australia, India and UAE. I would wait for Abbas to play at least 30-40 Tests before making such judgements. He is a good young bowler though and is very talented.

 

[Itachi]

I'll hold my horses before comparing him to the arguably 2nd most prolific bowler in current generation.

 

[WengerOut]

Not a fair comparison. Mohammad Abbas has just played 9 Tests. Philander has good record in Australia, India and UAE. I would wait for Abbas to play at least 30-40 Tests before making such judgements. He is a good young bowler though and is very talented.

14 wickets in 8 matches in Asia at an avg of 32. I guess it is a fair sample. He just seems benign on those pitches.

 

[The Viper]

Abbas’s ability to clean of the tail so easily makes him such a good bowler.

 

[the_outsider]

Comparing a bowler with 46 wickets to a bowler with 205 wickets.

Hmm...

Abbas is bowling well, no doubt. But at this point we don't even know if he will even reach 200 wickets let alone match Philander.

 

[barah_admi]

Abbas is a terrific bowler to have in a bowling line up with Yasir, hopefully a second spinner, if Hasan becomes a better test bowler and someone like Amir with pace and swing. Great foundation to build on in tests and...who knows, maybe even ODIs.

 

[Fahdi]

Comparing a bowler with 46 wickets to a bowler with 205 wickets.

Hmm...

Abbas is bowling well, no doubt. But at this point we don't even know if he will even reach 200 wickets let alone match Philander.

Comparison had more to do with how similar the two bowlers are. Obviously you can't compare the record of someone with only 9 matches under his belt to Philander.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Perfect comparison. Abbas does look good enough to go onto take 200-250 test wickets. He's 28, at the peak of his bowling and can easily play for another 5-6 years. His FC stats suggest he should have great success at international level.

 

[proud_pakistani]

Why are we not playing Abbas in ODIs?

 

[Mir jibran]

Perfect comparison. Abbas does look good enough to go onto take 200-250 test wickets. He's 28, at the peak of his bowling and can easily play for another 5-6 years. His FC stats suggest he should have great success at international level.

easily should take 250 wickets

 

[the_outsider]

Comparison had more to do with how similar the two bowlers are. Obviously you can't compare the record of someone with only 9 matches under his belt to Philander.

Comparisons should be made between people who are comparable. At this point, Philander is so ahead of Abbas that there is no place for comparison.

If Abbas carries on his performance for another 2 years, then a case for comparison can be exist.

At this point, it makes no sense. We don't even know if Abbas will play for Pak 2 years down the line. We've seen so many fast bowlers from Pak recently who have faded away. So this comparison is premature.

 

[Fahdi]

Comparisons should be made between people who are comparable. At this point, Philander is so ahead of Abbas that there is no place for comparison.

If Abbas carries on his performance for another 2 years, then a case for comparison can be exist.

At this point, it makes no sense. We don't even know if Abbas will play for Pak 2 years down the line. We've seen so many fast bowlers from Pak recently who have faded away. So this comparison is premature.

Did you actually read the post? I haven't compared performances nor have I pointed out who is better or who is worse. I simply pointed out that Abbas is very similar to Philander and like Philander he needs capable partners with a different set of skills like Philander has had Steyn, Rabada, Ngidi and Morkel. There's a reason why I didn't put 'Abbas vs Philander' in the title because at this point there is no competition.

 

[Deewana Mastana]

Perfect comparison. Abbas does look good enough to go onto take 200-250 test wickets. He's 28, at the peak of his bowling and can easily play for another 5-6 years. His FC stats suggest he should have great success at international level.

Pakistan do not play enough Test cricket that he could reach 200-250 wickets.

 

[the_outsider]

Did you actually read the post? I haven't compared performances nor have I pointed out who is better or who is worse. I simply pointed out that Abbas is very similar to Philander and like Philander he needs capable partners with a different set of skills like Philander has had Steyn, Rabada, Ngidi and Morkel. There's a reason why I didn't put 'Abbas vs Philander' in the title because at this point there is no competition.

Yes I did. From your OP I post the following quote: "now [Abbas] seems to me as either on par with Philander."

You were talking about their skills being on par as well. What a lot of people on PP seem to severely undermine is the "consistency" part of skill. Being able to keep bowling well for 9 tests is very different to doing so for 55 tests. So no, skill-wise they aren't at par yet either because there's no way to tell if this is Abbas at his peak or if it's how things will be for most of his career.

So I will be sticking to my original point - that there is no scope of comparison with an established test player like Philander.

 

[gazza619]

It seems like the county stint has turned Abbass into a beast.

 

[Extra_Cover]

Abbas to us in tests is what Hasan Ali is to us in limited overs....a genuine wicket taker.

 

[Fineline]

Abbas to us in tests is what Hasan Ali is to us in limited overs....a genuine wicket taker.

Lol!There is no genuine wicket taker in our limited overs side!Hassan Ali of 2018 hasn't been impressive one bit.

 

[90MPH]

Yes I did. From your OP I post the following quote: "now [Abbas] seems to me as either on par with Philander."

You were talking about their skills being on par as well. What a lot of people on PP seem to severely undermine is the "consistency" part of skill. Being able to keep bowling well for 9 tests is very different to doing so for 55 tests. So no, skill-wise they aren't at par yet either because there's no way to tell if this is Abbas at his peak or if it's how things will be for most of his career.

So I will be sticking to my original point - that there is no scope of comparison with an established test player like Philander.

Well you have no idea what you are talking about.

Abbas moves the ball both ways, he’s got a conventional inswinger as well as just hitting the seam and darting it off the other way.

If anyone watched how he setup and got Mark Stoneman in the Lords Test match against England it was pure art and perfection.

But above all his accuracy is just phenomenal, probably one of the most accurate Test seam bowlers in the world.

Now would it be helpful if he had an extra yard of pace and some height like Mohammed Asif ? Of course it would but it speak volumes that inspite of not having these features he’s had a unbelievable start.

In 10 Tests he’s averaging 16 with the ball is all that needs to be said.

It will go up but he will be an top Test bowler for years to come.

 

[the_outsider]

Well you have no idea what you are talking about.

Abbas moves the ball both ways, he’s got a conventional inswinger as well as just hitting the seam and darting it off the other way.

If anyone watched how he setup and got Mark Stoneman in the Lords Test match against England it was pure art and perfection.

But above all his accuracy is just phenomenal, probably one of the most accurate Test seam bowlers in the world.

Now would it be helpful if he had an extra yard of pace and some height like Mohammed Asif ? Of course it would but it speak volumes that inspite of not having these features he’s had a unbelievable start.

In 10 Tests he’s averaging 16 with the ball is all that needs to be said.

It will go up but he will be an top Test bowler for years to come.

I've seen people here be as entusiatic about Wabab, Amir, Irfan, etc after they played 10-20 games saying they are the next superstars. I don't need to remind you how they turned out. There is a reason why no Pak fast bowler has picked 200 test wickets since Wasim.

I'm not saying Abbas won't suceed. I'm not hoping against his success either, if that's what you are thinking. But I still maintain that it's preposterous to compare Abbas with Philander at this point. And I a completely right in doing so.

 

[Fahdi]

Yes I did. From your OP I post the following quote: "now [Abbas] seems to me as either on par with Philander."

You were talking about their skills being on par as well. What a lot of people on PP seem to severely undermine is the "consistency" part of skill. Being able to keep bowling well for 9 tests is very different to doing so for 55 tests. So no, skill-wise they aren't at par yet either because there's no way to tell if this is Abbas at his peak or if it's how things will be for most of his career.

So I will be sticking to my original point - that there is no scope of comparison with an established test player like Philander.

That was more of a comment on his skill. The way he has bowled recently he has been on par with Philander in my view. I don't comment on his career, how he does remains to be seen.

Consistently is an entirely different matter and no one should underestimate it. It is what defines the career of a player.

Like I said I don't mean to compare the two as players. The comparison may hold some substance after Abbas has played 20 tests but not now. I am comparing styles.

 

[MMHS]

At around 4.5 rate Abbas should require around 58 Tests to reach 250, or like another 48 to reach 200.

At PCB's rate, excluding injury, even if he plays every Test for PAK, it's about 7 years to reach 48 Tests ...... I can safely say guy won't reach 250 Test wickets, 200 might be a tight target.

But, say 48 Tests for 200 wickets at ~25 average is a brilliant career considering almost half of these Tests are likely to be in UAE. Vernon's figures in AUS is a bit misleading - he had 2 Tests at ideal condition (& very unlike traditional AUS wickets) at Hobart & Adelaide D/N Test, outside that his stats are poor in AUS. Having said that, Vernon Phi is almost unplayable on his type of wicket. He has 13 5fors & 2 10fors in 55 Tests and less than 3.8 wickets/Test @ <22, which actually indicates guy has highs & lows - on his favorable condition, he is king; while Captains don't use him much if the condition doesn't suit him much - that's protecting his outstanding average/SR, but wicket/match is suffering.

Closest comparison indeed.

 

[Hasan123]

I would like to see how Abbas does in Australia and South Africa. Philander has done well in Australia when not many thought he would.

 

[90MPH]

I've seen people here be as entusiatic about Wabab, Amir, Irfan, etc after they played 10-20 games saying they are the next superstars. I don't need to remind you how they turned out. There is a reason why no Pak fast bowler has picked 200 test wickets since Wasim.

I'm not saying Abbas won't suceed. I'm not hoping against his success either, if that's what you are thinking. But I still maintain that it's preposterous to compare Abbas with Philander at this point. And I a completely right in doing so.

It’s preposterous only from your point of view but you haven’t backed up your claims on the reason other than him not performing.

He’s played 10 matches and he matches Philander on everything including similar pace, similar skill and similar accuracy.

Now it remains to be seen if he maintains this amazing start but so far it looks good.

 

[Last Monetarist]

If Abbas were to tour Australia, he'd get hammered like every other fast bowler that isn't Australian. That's not a slight on him either, it's just the way those pitches are these days. They are worse than UAE pitches, in general.

I reckon that he might do well in South Africa this winter though.

 

[the_outsider]

That was more of a comment on his skill. The way he has bowled recently he has been on par with Philander in my view. I don't comment on his career, how he does remains to be seen.

Consistently is an entirely different matter and no one should underestimate it. It is what defines the career of a player.

Like I said I don't mean to compare the two as players. The comparison may hold some substance after Abbas has played 20 tests but not now. I am comparing styles.

Yes, stylistically they are similar. They have similar strengths.

 

[the_outsider]

It’s preposterous only from your point of view but you haven’t backed up your claims on the reason other than him not performing.

He’s played 10 matches and he matches Philander on everything including similar pace, similar skill and similar accuracy.

Now it remains to be seen if he maintains this amazing start but so far it looks good.

Do you remember the Pakistani pacer from circa 2003 named Shabbir Ahmed? He took 51 test wickets in 10 test matches. And then he was never heard from again.

Like I said before, since Wasim/Waqar no Pakistani fast bowler has breached the 200 wickets barrier. Pakistan has lost the art of developing and maintaining their fast bowlers. There is no knowing whether Abbas can continue doing this for the next 50 tests or whether he will fizzle our like most that have come before him.

So for you to compare a 9-test match old Abbas to a bowler who has already taken 200 wickets and in all probability will take another 100 before retirement, is indeed preposterous. Not just in my eyes - but it flies against cricketing intelligence.

There is no knowing where Abbas will end up. If and when he has a 100-120 wickets, then a comparison can be made. But not right now when his career is not even 17% as long as Philander's is.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Any successful bowler who operate in the lower speed category has good bowling acumen. They don't survive otherwise. Asif, Philander, Abbas, McGrath are prime examples.

McGrath wasn't that slow. He looked slow because of his height. McGrath bowled 135km/hr even when he was old. You should replaced McGrath with Vaas.

 

[Pete Rose]

He looks good and we need him stay fit and find him a new ball partner for south africa. Comparisons with philander are inevitable.

 

[ali2220]

someone here mentioned shabbier Ahmed, shabbir was a chucker and as such got banned. Wahab riaz has never done anything great in test and was never expected to do wonders .The only bowlers who couldn’t deliver were Asif and aamer and it had to do with non cricketing reasons.
Unless Abbas breaks down due to injury , I don’t see why he will falter, and as for waiting for him to get 100 wkts, I think we won’t have to wait much longer for that.

 

[wrongun]

McGrath wasn't that slow. He looked slow because of his height. McGrath bowled 135km/hr even when he was old. You should replaced McGrath with Vaas.

True, he could operate at 140-145 if he needed to for the first half of his career.

 

[alized]

Mir Hamza sounds like a good partner option for Abbas.

 

[IAJ]

Comparing a bowler with 46 wickets to a bowler with 205 wickets.

Hmm...

Abbas is bowling well, no doubt. But at this point we don't even know if he will even reach 200 wickets let alone match Philander.

Yeah even I was surprised to see a pakistani poster posting/comparing players like Indian posters so I kind of agree with you.

 

[Fahdi]

He looks good and we need him stay fit and find him a new ball partner for south africa. Comparisons with philander are inevitable.

That's the main thing. Ideally we need to pair him up with someone with a bit of pace as that presents a different sort of threat. Amir hasn't worked out unfortunately.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

True, he could operate at 140-145 if he needed to for the first half of his career.

Yeah, McGrath would easily be fast medium today. He also seemed slow because he bowled when the likes of Lee and Akhtar was around. Even 140km/hr was average in that time. Even Kallis used to bowl around 145km/hr in late nineties.

 

[Abdullah719]

 

[Fahdi]

They both had similar starts to their careers as well it seems.

 

[Plumb]

Can't wait to see Abbas in SA against philander. Abbas is doing the tricks on UAE pitches while philander played all his games in seaming conditions.

Not taking away anything from the great line and length of philander but it will be a great matchup in SA.