Mohammad Abbas is yet to perform against top opposition!

[Buffet]

Yes we agree on this. Abbas bowled better than Anderson, bowled better than Steyn, bowled better than Starc, bowled better than Broad. That is all I am asserting. But lets' then see how long the idea that he is not as good as them can hold. Are you outraged that he sits so close to them in the ICC rankings? What if he goes past Anderson too?

To be honest, getting among top rank is very good, but being there for a long period is far more difficult. If he performs even remotely close to what he has done in his first 10 test, then he will stay near top for a long period. You are pretty sure that he will keep doing what he is doing, and many other posters are not too sure about. Let's see where he stands after 2-3 years.

Not too long ago, many posters in PP used to argue that Ali is the best ODI bowler because he got to rank 1 quickly. Now he is at rank 8. Example is not to show that Ali is a poor ODI bowler, but it's very hard to remain at top and if you can remain at top for a long period then you belong in elite category. It's early days for Ali and he has time.

You are convinced that Abbas belongs to that category. Many international players also think the same so you are not alone, but many want to see more than 10 tests to come to that conclusion. It's just difference in opinion and we are always going to have that.

I will not put him anywhere close to Steyn based on 10 tests. Let's see if I am am proven wrong or right in coming years.

 

[Buffet]

In 10 Tests, Abbas has thrice taken 3 for 98 against Windies, 3 for 107 against Lanka and 2 for 78 against England. Those are poor returns if we a looking at wicket per match ratios, in a full 30% of the matches he has already played.

Poor series will be averaging 35-40 in 2 test series( 6-8 tests) . When 3 tests makes 30% of career then you are not getting a benefit of sample size.

 

[New Yorker]

Poor series will be averaging 35-40 in 2 test series( 6-8 tests) . When 3 tests makes 30% of career then you are not getting a benefit of sample size.

Well I agree that if he has 6-8 Tests in which he averages 35-40 his average might worsen. No sense in arguing with tautology. But it rather depends on on how much he averages in the other series too. He just came out one in the UAE in which he averaged 9. So you have to explain why we should assume that he will do so poorly overall in the future, when he has already played on the worst pitches in the world. Again, I do think it is likely that he will do worse, but I also feel there is a good chance he keeps himself below 20. And that his average goes down even more after the SAF series before it goes up.

 

[CricketDon]

That is true.

But you're still missing the point.

Point is this ain’t boxing or to an extent ufc were the individual can pick and choose their opposition. It’s down to the board.

 

[Hawkeye]

In 10 Tests, Abbas has thrice taken 3 for 98 against Windies, 3 for 107 against Lanka and 2 for 78 against England. Those are poor returns if we a looking at wicket per match ratios, in a full 30% of the matches he has already played. So he has plenty of off days. But he has still managed to average 15. In other words, variable form is already built into the sample. Will he have even worse returns? Well you seem confident you know the future. But you would have to help us understand why the returns would be so much worse that his average would balloon by 7 some points. Where is the opposition that will lay him even lower? Where are pitches even more dead than the UAE? And note that he will most likely never play in India. Most of the pitches he will play on outside of the UAE will be far more helpful to him, not less. By comparison, Rabada has bowled almost exclusively on bowling paradises, in SAF and New Zealand. So I expect Abbas average to become better before it eventually becomes worse.

We're just going to agree to disagree.

"pitches even more dead than the UAE" . I see where you're coming from when you state this. But also understand that previous great Pak bowlers have done very well in the subcontinent, on the so-called dead pitches.

Also, the opposition he was facing was hopeless. You think the likes of Kohli or Smith or Williamson on flat tracks will leave him alone?

What you're talking about is a statistical anomaly of the magnitude of Bradman's average.

You know, even Malcolm Marshall, considered the greatest of all time, averages ~21. McGrath averages ~22. Steyn too.

So, if Abbas was to average less than 20 over a good sample size, it will be equivalent of a batting average above 80 at a good sample size.

It just won't happen, or very unlikely to happen. Opposition and their tactics will evolve.

 

[Buffet]

Well I agree that if he has 6-8 Tests in which he averages 35-40 his average might worsen. No sense in arguing with tautology. But it rather depends on on how much he averages in the other series too. He just came out one in the UAE in which he averaged 9. So you have to explain why we should assume that he will do so poorly overall in the future, when he has already played on the worst pitches in the world. Again, I do think it is likely that he will do worse, but I also feel there is a good chance he keeps himself below 20. And that his average goes down even more after the SAF series before it goes up.

Some one averaging 70 in first 10 test has a very slim chance of keeping that average if he plays for 60 tests.

Some one averaging 15 has a very slim chance of keeping that average if he plays 60 tests.

Notice the word, slim chance. It's not impossible, but chance is extremely low. That's what some posters are saying.

In both cases, newness combined with unique circumstances may result in anomaly for a short period. It has happened before as well, not necessarily in first 10 tests, but 10 successive tests.

This is based on long history of cricket. You are convinced that this time it's different, but others are not. We just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Buffet]

his average goes down even more after the SAF series before it goes up.

Let's see if that happens. It can happen because many bowlers have averaged in low teens in SA in past in one test series. So not impossible, but let's wait for SA series. He should do well in SA conditions.

 

[New Yorker]

Some one averaging 70 in first 10 test has a very slim chance of keeping that average if he plays for 60 tests.

Some one averaging 15 has a very slim chance of keeping that average if he plays 60 tests.

Notice the word, slim chance. It's not impossible, but chance is extremely low. That's what some posters are saying.

In both cases, newness combined with unique circumstances may result in anomaly for a short period. It has happened before as well, not necessarily in first 10 tests, but 10 successive tests.

This is based on long history of cricket. You are convinced that this time it's different, but others are not. We just have to agree to disagree.

No I'm not convinced, at all, but I'm interested in making the argument. I'll be the first to acknowledge the unlikelyhood of someone like Abbas appearing, but once he appears, I'd like to sit and think with it a bit. The law of averages is not a law, it is statistically speaking nothing at all. That is precisely why someone like Bradman can exist. But we can also look to less spectacular anomalies, like Adam Voges, who retired with a batting average of 61 after 20 Tests, or Mickey Hussey, who if he had retired earlier could have done something similar.

Now, as to the points you make. Someone who averages 70 after 10 Tests probably won't play any more tests. But if he is really that awful for that many Tests, I don't think it is unlikely that he will continue to be that awful. We can probably find hundreds of examples of batsmen who bowled occasionally with little result and thus carried averages of around 70 across their careers.

There is a difference between predicting the outcome of a dice roll, in which any side has equal chance to come up, and you would expect all outcomes to equalize over time, and predicting the outcome of something like a bowler's performance, where every incremental performance actually tells you something more about the bowler's abilities, and thus shifts the entire distribution. By the time Bradman was half way into his career you would not have bet against him continuing to average 100.

As for someone averaging 15 in Tests over a long period of time, it is of course as per the available evidence extremely unlikely, and has not been achieved even by all time great bowlers. But since it has actually happened that someone has managed to get to 10 Tests with this average, one would have to ask, how often has that happened? If we are already inside the anomaly, do the usual likelihoods apply, or do we have to recalibrate? Can we find parallels to Abbas' case?

I can only think of one pacer myself, Philander, who sat at 15 and thereabouts after 10 Tests, and he managed to sustain an average of 18 until 20 Tests. So it doesn't seem completely implausible that Abbas could do the same. Particularly since Philander's initial burst was done on extremely helpful South African and New Zealand pitches.

That is why I think it is a fair gamble that Abbas sustains his average or even pushes it lower over the SAF series, before it starts to rise again. If he only plays 30 something Tests, which is also not unlikely, given his age and Pakistan's schedule, I don't see why he couldn't stay below 20.

 

[Buffet]

No I'm not convinced, at all, but I'm interested in making the argument. I'll be the first to acknowledge the unlikelyhood of someone like Abbas appearing, but once he appears, I'd like to sit and think with it a bit. The law of averages is not a law, it is statistically speaking nothing at all. That is precisely why someone like Bradman can exist. But we can also look to less spectacular anomalies, like Adam Voges, who retired with a batting average of 61 after 20 Tests, or Mickey Hussey, who if he had retired earlier could have done something similar.

Now, as to the points you make. Someone who averages 70 after 10 Tests probably won't play any more tests. But if he is really that awful for that many Tests, I don't think it is unlikely that he will continue to be that awful. We can probably find hundreds of examples of batsmen who bowled occasionally with little result and thus carried averages of around 70 across their careers.

There is a difference between predicting the outcome of a dice roll, in which any side has equal chance to come up, and you would expect all outcomes to equalize over time, and predicting the outcome of something like a bowler's performance, where every incremental performance actually tells you something more about the bowler's abilities, and thus shifts the entire distribution. By the time Bradman was half way into his career you would not have bet against him continuing to average 100.

As for someone averaging 15 in Tests over a long period of time, it is of course as per the available evidence extremely unlikely, and has not been achieved even by all time great bowlers. But since it has actually happened that someone has managed to get to 10 Tests with this average, one would have to ask, how often has that happened? If we are already inside the anomaly, do the usual likelihoods apply, or do we have to recalibrate? Can we find parallels to Abbas' case?

I can only think of one pacer myself, Philander, who sat at 15 and thereabouts after 10 Tests, and he managed to sustain an average of 18 until 20 Tests. So it doesn't seem completely implausible that Abbas could do the same. Particularly since Philander's initial burst was done on extremely helpful South African and New Zealand pitches.

That is why I think it is a fair gamble that Abbas sustains his average or even pushes it lower over the SAF series, before it starts to rise again. If he only plays 30 something Tests, which is also not unlikely, given his age and Pakistan's schedule, I don't see why he couldn't stay below 20.

If he plays only 30 tests, he will have a higher chance to end below 20. I agree with that.

70 average example was for a batsman. I forgot to add that.

 

[New Yorker]

We're just going to agree to disagree.

"pitches even more dead than the UAE" . I see where you're coming from when you state this. But also understand that previous great Pak bowlers have done very well in the subcontinent, on the so-called dead pitches.

Also, the opposition he was facing was hopeless. You think the likes of Kohli or Smith or Williamson on flat tracks will leave him alone?

What you're talking about is a statistical anomaly of the magnitude of Bradman's average.

You know, even Malcolm Marshall, considered the greatest of all time, averages ~21. McGrath averages ~22. Steyn too.

So, if Abbas was to average less than 20 over a good sample size, it will be equivalent of a batting average above 80 at a good sample size.

It just won't happen, or very unlikely to happen. Opposition and their tactics will evolve.

I would be curious if any Pakistani pacer has averaged 10 or so over a series. Imran probably did during his golden years. But UAE pitches aren't just subcontinental pitches. No fast bowler has ever taken a 10 fer on UAE pitches before Abbas. And this is not about whether someone can do well, in a general sense, but this well. A bit of more precision is required. If Imran is the example, consider that he actually averaged 16 or so over a few years, if I recall, bowling against very good batsmen.

I don't see his opposition as hopeless at all. Khawaja is very good, as is Finch, who deserves to remain a regular opener for Australia. Abbas will never face Kohli in Tests. Williamson should be an interesting confrontation. But we are not talking about T20 cricket here. If I were Williamson, or any reasonably intelligent batsman, the last thing I would do is to go after a Abbas in the UAE, when he is the oppositions' only Test class pacer. I would just play him out and milk the other bowlers. So Abbas could still be economical against Williamson.

As to the Bradman anomaly, I have answered that in an earlier post. The thing is, once you enter far enough into the anomaly, the odds start to shift. After a certain number of Tests, the good odds would have been on Bradman remaining an anomaly, not falling back to median performance.

 

[jnaveen1980]

How does he do with Kookaburra?

 

[Xoib]

How does he do with Kookaburra?

Thr last series was with kookaburra

 

[alized]

Abbas should be rested for NZ series. Imminent Bore fest white wash. Pakistan will run these soft kiwis over in their sleep.

 

[Hawkeye]

Well I agree that if he has 6-8 Tests in which he averages 35-40 his average might worsen. No sense in arguing with tautology. But it rather depends on on how much he averages in the other series too. He just came out one in the UAE in which he averaged 9. So you have to explain why we should assume that he will do so poorly overall in the future, when he has already played on the worst pitches in the world. Again, I do think it is likely that he will do worse, but I also feel there is a good chance he keeps himself below 20. And that his average goes down even more after the SAF series before it goes up.

So, here is your answer [MENTION=139754]New Yorker[/MENTION]

Like I said, what he was averaging was not going to be sustained. Teams will watch him, work him out, set plans, etc.

And his average will be affected.

So far he's averaging 45 in this series.

Of course, he can make a comeback and make counter plans, plus conditions in South Africa will be massively in his favor.

But, the average will return to statistical 'normal' if he plays 50-60 Tests. Will not always remain under 18 - 20, over a long period.

 

[Abid Z]

We sure do like our hype trains.

Abbas has seen a phenomenal entry into Test cricket, but so far his performances have been either against minnows, or depleted low morale lineup of Australia. That too not in Australia.

His England tour was good, but those were ideal seaming conditions and NOVELTY was also a factor - opposition did not know how to counter him, had not watched or studied him.

So, before we start claiming Abbas is better than Rabada, Steyn, Asif, et. al. , calm down and get a reality check.

He can do good, and nobody says after 20-30 Tests he cannot become a good to great bowler.

But he cannot be compared to greats at this stage. Has a lot to prove, now that opposition will study him. Will either fade away or come out on top.
.

Certainly you are right, a player whether batsman or bowler is better judged after 20 tests. And yes he doesn’t have an outswinger to prise our wickets once batsmen decide to drop anchor, and yes he has suffered with poor bowling partners who leak any pressure he creates.

However, now he’s in a completely different Scenario. Our attack looks settled and New Zealand have enough knowledge about him and our other bowlers who are all amongst the wickets. His key moments will be the next test and South Africa where he will simply run amok.

 

[Stewie]

Just a few off games.. not because he bowled bad or anything.. just different circumstances.. you cant keep his wickets cloumn empty for long, i suspect..

 

[coy0607]

maybe drop him for third game and bring in Mir or Shaheen

 

[Amjid Javed]

Hes bowled with control and tied up an end, done thr job required, cant take all the wickets every game.

 

[Savak]

NZ have worked out that he doesn't have a quality outswinger and have been very watchful against him.

 

[Kashmirilion]

Some of you are unbelievable. On these pitches even mcgrath and Marshall would have failed to get wickets most innings these pitches are grave yards for bowlers. Haters will always hate no matter what.

 

[Greenstorm]

He needs to develop more control on his outswing (away from right handers). Even Asif mentioned that in his interview. Tight bowler nevertheless.

 

[Stewie]

Some of you are unbelievable. On these pitches even mcgrath and Marshall would have failed to get wickets most innings these pitches are grave yards for bowlers. Haters will always hate no matter what.

Our couch experts expect nothing less than excellence from our bowlers.. lol

 

[Bilal7]

Just a few off games.. not because he bowled bad or anything.. just different circumstances.. you cant keep his wickets cloumn empty for long, i suspect..

Nothing off about his performance. He's been superb without picking up wickets.

 

[Hasan123]

He will do well in South Africa.

 

[Stewie]

Nothing off about his performance. He's been superb without picking up wickets.

Agreed.. i used that word with a qualifier. Some because they played him well, the wickets suited spin and yasir was the pointman. He needed someone to hold the other end and abbas did that wonderfully...

Even mcgrath played that role sometimes for warne

 

[ikky47]

Superb bowler, but needs to work out on his out swinger then I think he will be the complete package.

 

[Xoib]

Whats this talk of outswing

He certainly has one its not his main weapon like the off cutter but he has a good outswinger in his locker case in point the test matches vs England and Ireland ofcourse these pitches are not supporting for seamers so he sticks to his main weapon even Boult struggled to get the ball of the straight in this series does that mean he cannot move the ball?

 

[Xoib]

Mohammad Abbas to Joyce (LH), OUT, Abbas draws another appeal for lbw, this time umpire Illingworth raises his finger. Full inswinger from Abbas, shapes back in, Joyce hangs back and plays all around it. This might have clipped leg stump but was the impact in line with leg stump? Tight, tight cal

Mohammad Abbas to NJ O'Brien (LH), OUT, pinned on the knee-roll and Ireland are in tatters! Caught on the crease, and a hostage to the late nip back off the seam

Mohammad Abbas to KJ O'Brien, OUT, width, slashed, gone! O'Brien is gone to his first ball of the morning! He forgot that he wouldn't necessarily still be seeing it like a planet today, and his feet weren't moving either. Big outswing

Mohammad Abbas to Stoneman (LH), OUT, bowled him! That is an absolute beauty and due reward for Abbas's diligence this morning. Full, threatening, seaming back through the gate, blasting the timbers with the batsman caught on the crease. Another failure for Stoneman, so here comes the skipper!

Mohammad Abbas to Stokes (LH), OUT, huge appeal for lbw and he's gone on review! Given not out and Sarfraz has called the review. Looks stone dead if it has pitched in line. Stokes playing back, struck on the knee roll. It's pitched on leg stump and this is gone! Just a fraction more than 50% of the ball inside leg stump and it's hitting the top of middle. Top call from Sarfraz

Mohammad Abbas to Bess, OUT, another one taken at second slip!. Another England batsman lured into a drive. The ball was full outside off, Bess sends a thick edge to Shafiq

Mohammad Abbas to Broad (LH), OUT, and he's given lbw! So Broad lasts just two balls. Abbas gets this fuller at the stumps and even Broad doesn't consider a review. Struck him low on the front pad.

Mohammad Abbas to Cook, OUT (LH), pinned on the knee roll and that's a huge breakthrough! Fuller length, nips back from a tight off stump line, and Cook doesn't even consider reviewing that! There's the reward for challenging the stumps with every delivery. The slightest deviation off the pitch, and you're in business

These are all dismissals by Abbas where he got the wickets on the English tour with the ball going away from right hander or the ball coming in to the left hander

 

[Hawkeye]

Some of you are unbelievable. On these pitches even mcgrath and Marshall would have failed to get wickets most innings these pitches are grave yards for bowlers. Haters will always hate no matter what.

Did you even read the posts here?

What I said is it's totally expected he'll have a bad series or two, maybe more.

The other poster was saying something about his average not ever going above 20. Which is very unlikely, so we're discussing that.

Teams will come up with plans to counter him, now the ball's in his court on how to deal with that.

Conditions will be massively in his favor in South Africa, where he can further build stats.

But over the long term, things will even out.

 

[Hawkeye]

Whats this talk of outswing

He certainly has one its not his main weapon like the off cutter but he has a good outswinger in his locker case in point the test matches vs England and Ireland ofcourse these pitches are not supporting for seamers so he sticks to his main weapon even Boult struggled to get the ball of the straight in this series does that mean he cannot move the ball?

This myth of outswing will be busted in South Africa.

We'll see.

So far it's just theory that he has it or has mastered it. IF he really had it, Asif would be the first person to know it.

They play together.

 

[Xoib]

This myth of outswing will be busted in South Africa.

We'll see.

So far it's just theory that he has it or has mastered it. IF he really had it, Asif would be the first person to know it.

They play together.

its not his main weapon but he has the capability especially with the new ball on responsive tracks see my post above where you can see how many lefties he has trapped in the England and Ireland series. He does not move it huge to consistently get nicks to the slips or keeper with the Right hander but he moves it enough to pin the lefties.

In the UK tour across 3 tests he got the lefties LBW six times of his 19 dismissals (5 times over the wicket) and you cannot do that without an outswinger

 

[New Yorker]

So, here is your answer [MENTION=139754]New Yorker[/MENTION]

Like I said, what he was averaging was not going to be sustained. Teams will watch him, work him out, set plans, etc.

And his average will be affected.

So far he's averaging 45 in this series.

Of course, he can make a comeback and make counter plans, plus conditions in South Africa will be massively in his favor.

But, the average will return to statistical 'normal' if he plays 50-60 Tests. Will not always remain under 18 - 20, over a long period.

Laws of averages do not apply to individuals, they apply to sample populations. It may be unlikely that any one player maintains an average under 20, but if one player is in in fact doing so, it must be accounted for. And the longer that he does, the more he is already shifting the probability distribution in favor of sustaining that average. If he keeps it up for 30 Tests the probability of him remaining below 20 at the 50 mark increases, not the other way around. So let's check back after South Africa.

 

[Hawkeye]

Laws of averages do not apply to individuals, they apply to sample populations. It may be unlikely that any one player maintains an average under 20, but if one player is in in fact doing so, it must be accounted for. And the longer that he does, the more he is already shifting the probability distribution in favor of sustaining that average. If he keeps it up for 30 Tests the probability of him remaining below 20 at the 50 mark increases, not the other way around. So let's check back after South Africa.

You also said that since he has done so well in UAE already, it's not likely that he will have bad days.

Well, things evolve, opposition make plans, now he will have a harder time than before to take wickets.

 

[Hawkeye]

So.. let's see how he does.

Wicketless in the series against NZ.

Wicketless so far in his first 10 overs in South Africa, also the most expensive. On a pitch that should support his type of bowling.

Hope he can bring us back into the game.

 

[Fahdi]

I think we were all expecting a bit too much in this match.

Thinking realistically what we saw in this match shouldn't come as a surprise. This is the first time Abbas is bowling on a bouncy track in a competitive match and that too immediately after an injury lay off. The consistency just wasn't there and he seemed confused about what length to bowl. The other bowlers didn't exactly do brilliantly when they first bowled in the warm up game.

 

[MMHS]

Of course the odds are against him, but it is a different thing to look at the question as if it were an inevitability. There is in fact no law of averages that has any relevance in the real world. There are just likelyhoods. What I wanted to point out were a few factors that pushed back a bit on the odds against Abba's favor, and the arguments made by [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] and others, which suggest that his performance must inevitably decline because he has enjoyed relatively easy opposition, in the future he will have failures and so forth. And those points were basically this:

He already has had failures; Tests in which he does not perform superlatively, takes few wickets etc, yet his average survives despite them, in part because he is very economical. So he may well not be able to do as well against team X vs team Y, but he does not necessarily have to in order to maintain his average. That variance is already built into the sample size we see today. Which includes not only different qualities of opposition, including some very good opposition, in England, but also different qualities of pitches. I think it is safe to say that what he has done in the UAE is quite remarkable, for a pacer. Steyn and Philander and Starc could not do half as well as him.

To these things counting in his favor I would add another factor. He started his international career at the peak of his power, and is not likely to have a very long career, given his age, and the number of Tests Pakistan plays. And there are certainly bowlers, like Imran, who have maintained averages in the mid teens for shorter periods of time. So I would not be surprised if he ends with an average below 20. But I fear that he will not have played enough Tests for it to count, a bit like Adam Voges, who retired, less we forget, with an average of 61 after 20 Tests, but is all but forgotten already. What I actually expect, and might bet on, is that Abbas' average actually goes down a bit more, in the SAF series, before it starts to go up again. So let's bump this thread then.

Since you tagged me - still on that bet?

 

[Savak]

I think we were all expecting a bit too much in this match.

Thinking realistically what we saw in this match shouldn't come as a surprise. This is the first time Abbas is bowling on a bouncy track in a competitive match and that too immediately after an injury lay off. The consistency just wasn't there and he seemed confused about what length to bowl. The other bowlers didn't exactly do brilliantly when they first bowled in the warm up game.

The decision to play him immediately after injury without any practice games was catastrophic in itself.

 

[Fahdi]

The decision to play him immediately after injury without any practice games was catastrophic in itself.

Almost every single poster here had him in his playing 11. Abbas created a lot of expectations and had he not been played there would have been a lot of questions asked. You can't blame the management for backing their best bowler.

 

[topspin]

There is the possibility that he bowls better on lower bounce wickets like in Asia and England rather than the ones in Aus and SA because getting lbws on faster wickets is a lot more challenging. Also he doesn't have the height like Asif does, so can he bring in slips into play on express highways like here in Cape Town and in Australia?

I won't jump to any conclusions as of yet because he has just come back from injury,also it is just one day's play and I'm not sure he is 100% fit but just note these type of surfaces with a Kookaburra might be a weakness of his. I hope he can rattle a few quick scalps tomorrow, so Pakistan can at least restrict them to 250 - 300.

 

[Majid Khan]

Abbas is a modern day Angus Fraser type bowler, he bowls decent wicket to wicket line and length, gets a few dibbly dobblies pass the bat, takes a few hard earned wickets here and there in most conditions and can look very lively on seaming tracks — please don’t compare him with McGrath, what separates Glenn McGrath from the Caddicks, Frasers, Prasads, Abbas’s and Guls of this world was that he was not just all maiden overs and two or three wickets but he was ferocious and destructive , and could rip apart a batting line up on his own at his best.

Vernon Philander is the only other so-called line and length bowler around who looks fearsome and can do some serious damage.. and briefly Mohammed Asif before his exit gave some glimpses of such brilliance.

 

[The Viper]

Think it will take him time to find his rhythm back.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Sarfraz should be willing to stand up to the stumps to get the best out of him. Markram was a foot outside the crease against him.

 

[Abdullah719]

Sarfraz should be willing to stand up to the stumps to get the best out of him. Markram was a foot outside the crease against him.

Can't trust the bounce on this pitch. It'll be pretty difficult to stand up to the stumps.

 

[Abdullah]

He will be fine. People's expectations getting warped after watching Pakistanis bat .
350 was probably a par score for normal batting unit which is why lot of saffers were surprised that SA bowled

 

[BaankeJi]

He will be fine. People's expectations getting warped after watching Pakistanis bat .
350 was probably a par score for normal batting unit which is why lot of saffers were surprised that SA bowled

I think Faf doesn't have confidence in his team's batting.

 

[Abid Z]

Abbas is a modern day Angus Fraser type bowler, he bowls decent wicket to wicket line and length, gets a few dibbly dobblies pass the bat, takes a few hard earned wickets here and there in most conditions and can look very lively on seaming tracks — please don’t compare him with McGrath, what separates Glenn McGrath from the Caddicks, Frasers, Prasads, Abbas’s and Guls of this world was that he was not just all maiden overs and two or three wickets but he was ferocious and destructive , and could rip apart a batting line up on his own at his best.

Vernon Philander is the only other so-called line and length bowler around who looks fearsome and can do some serious damage.. and briefly Mohammed Asif before his exit gave some glimpses of such brilliance.

This is a good post. But you’ve stopped short of elaborating why? That’s the question. Of course when considering line and length bowlers McGrath and pollock are head and shoulders above the rest.

Asif is well over 6ft and seams it both ways.
Philander is quite short but also seams both ways and bowls with a good attack so pressure is maintained from all four bowlers. Plus philander can hold a bat.

Abbas is our no1 bowler but this isn’t saying much as he’s a little one dimensional right now but he has to improve. Most balls come into a right hander, not much of a bouncer not many seam away and with his comparatively short height does get disconcerting bounce. So outside edge is not threatened, and lbw can be out of play if batsman stands well forward and nullify swing/seam.

Wish him the best but others need to step up.

 

[MenInG]

 

[amax]

Bowled beautifully

 

[Hawkeye]

Feeling like his honeymoon period is getting over.

[MENTION=139754]New Yorker[/MENTION] what do you think?

 

[Rayyman]

Feeling like his honeymoon period is getting over.

[MENTION=139754]New Yorker[/MENTION] what do you think?

He bowled decently today, not as well as Amir, but good enough.

 

[jnaveen1980]

For some reason his seam movement reminds me of ABdul Razzaq.

 

[Plumb]

To all the snow flake fans... he needs time if he is fit for 3rd test you will see him ripping through SA batting. Also he needs support from other end too.

I believe he gets better the more he bowls.. wait and watch!!!!

 

[Outswinger]

He bowled much better than his figures suggests. Just needs a tearaway quick from the other end to complement him.

 

[Hawkeye]

What's going wrong with him? These kind of pitches were tailor made for him.

No zip, no pace, and certainly no wickets. :S

 

[Buffet]

What's going wrong with him? These kind of pitches were tailor made for him.

No zip, no pace, and certainly no wickets. :S

Amir was the leader of attack with 1 wicket in SA's first 100 overs in first inning.

Abbas was the leader of attack in second inning with 1 wicket.

Both leaders need to step up a bit.

 

[Hawkeye]

Amir was the leader of attack with 1 wicket in SA's first 100 overs in first inning.

Abbas was the leader of attack in second inning with 1 wicket.

Both leaders need to step up a bit.

It's not quite comparable though.

Amir: 70 overs! Average: 23.

Abbas: 38 overs, average: 57.

Whole series so far.

 

[Buffet]

It's not quite comparable though.

Amir: 70 overs! Average: 23.

Abbas: 38 overs, average: 57.

Whole series so far.

Abbas didn't get to play in more bowler friendly pitch. 3rd test will determine who is the leader

In all seriousness, both need to pick up wickets upfront to put pressure on weak SA batting. 3rd test is going to be even weaker.

 

[Hawkeye]

Abbas didn't get to play in more bowler friendly pitch. 3rd test will determine who is the leader

In all seriousness, both need to pick up wickets upfront to put pressure on weak SA batting. 3rd test is going to be even weaker.

Agreed.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Abbas didn't get to play in more bowler friendly pitch. 3rd test will determine who is the leader

In all seriousness, both need to pick up wickets upfront to put pressure on weak SA batting. 3rd test is going to be even weaker.

He relies on getting wickets by decking the ball back off the seam to the right handers. If batsmen decide to see him off they can do unlike Asif who could nibble the ball around the edge of your bat constantly. He is more like Abdul Razzaq. Dare i say if Abdul Razzaq had played in this era he would have been a premiere bowler for Pakistan. Standard of batting has regressed a lot.

 

[Abid Z]

He bowled much better than his figures suggests. Just needs a tearaway quick from the other end to complement him.

He doesn’t need a tear away quick to leak runs and release pressure. He needs a couple of very good line and length bowlers to keep pressure on and most importantly he needs to seam the ball away from rhb so that he can bring outside edge into play for the forward defensive push and therefore become both an attacking and defensive option.

 

[Buffet]

He relies on getting wickets by decking the ball back off the seam to the right handers. If batsmen decide to see him off they can do unlike Asif who could nibble the ball around the edge of your bat constantly. He is more like Abdul Razzaq. Dare i say if Abdul Razzaq had played in this era he would have been a premiere bowler for Pakistan. Standard of batting has regressed a lot.

Well, he has his limitations, but not really Razzaq.

 

[aukhan]

Very disappointed with him.

 

[Fahdi]

Do keep in mind that Philander himself only got 2 wickets at 43. Philander is the closest thing to Abbas and averages 16-17 on this very ground. Abbas also had 2 catches put down. If Philander can't pick up wickets here then it may not have been the conditions for these sort of bowlers.

Regardless counting this match Abbas has failed in 2 matches total. Not enough for anyone to pin him a failure.

 

[Bewal Express]

He is a solid bowler, lets not rubbish him. His strengths are his control and movement in, but needs a little more to take wickets against the better players by getting the ball to either hold its line or better move away.

 

[Sherlock]

If anyone's watched the current Test, especially the 1st innings, you'd realise how unlucky he's been. Obviously not Amir unlucky but he bowled better than the numbers suggest.

 

[Abdullah719]

If anyone's watched the current Test, especially the 1st innings, you'd realise how unlucky he's been. Obviously not Amir unlucky but he bowled better than the numbers suggest.

Yeah he bowled pretty well specially on Day 2. Could have been a touch fuller maybe, but he is bowling in South Africa for the first time...

Of course he hasn't performed in the past couple of games so his career is basically over. Or he might be the best in the world after the next match, let's see

 

[barah_admi]

I guess performing against England and New Zealand no longer counts, neither does Australia. So what next, he had to play against the dothraki?

 

[AlizeeFan]

I guess performing against England and New Zealand no longer counts, neither does Australia. So what next, he had to play against the dothraki?

What did he do against NZ?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Hes just come back from injury and had no warm up game in these conditions. He slow adjusted line and lengths to what was required in 2nd half off the 1st inns.

Lets see how he fairs in last test before crticizing him.

 

[Abid Z]

He bowled much better than his figures suggests. Just needs a tearaway quick from the other end to complement him.

Are you crazy!! He doesn’t need a tear away quick to leak runs and release pressure. He needs a couple of very good line and length bowlers to keep pressure on and most importantly he needs to seam the ball away from rhb so that he can bring outside edge into play for the forward defensive push and therefore become both an attacking and defensive option.

 

[Hawkeye]

Do keep in mind that Philander himself only got 2 wickets at 43. Philander is the closest thing to Abbas and averages 16-17 on this very ground. Abbas also had 2 catches put down. If Philander can't pick up wickets here then it may not have been the conditions for these sort of bowlers.

Regardless counting this match Abbas has failed in 2 matches total. Not enough for anyone to pin him a failure.

Let's not resort to justifications and excuses.

It's also unfair to call him a failure, which nobody has said here so far. So, not sure why you're saying that.

But, it's also a bit concerning as he's on a decline since the NZ series. Well, he has a very small sample set so far anyway, so there's no real decline or rise.

It's only the fans who had started calling him the next McGrath or Asif after just a few matches. So everyone started having high expectations. We like to go overboard.


Been saying we need a large sample set to judge him.

 

[Mp812]

Abbas should be rested for NZ series. Imminent Bore fest white wash. Pakistan will run these soft kiwis over in their sleep.

NZ won the series

 

[Hasan123]

Whilst his numbers were great in his first few games , he wasn’t likely to have such numbers forever. He was always going to have a spell where batsmen figure him out. He needs to find a way to adapt.

 

[topspin]

I guess performing against England and New Zealand no longer counts, neither does Australia. So what next, he had to play against the dothraki?

Ah you genius how many wickets did Abbas take against NZ? Please enlighten us dear.

 

[BaankeJi]

Whilst his numbers were great in his first few games , he wasn’t likely to have such numbers forever. He was always going to have a spell where batsmen figure him out. He needs to find a way to adapt.

Adapting is the key. It was obvious that batsmen will work him out at some point of time.

 

[Sherlock]

One game back, and no matches before it and on top of being unlucky and we have users talking about how Abbas needs to adapt

 

[Hawkeye]

One game back, and no matches before it and on top of being unlucky and we have users talking about how Abbas needs to adapt

So, what's wrong in saying he needs to adapt?

it's not abnormal - new bowler comes on to the scene, and due to that novelty factor takes many wickets.

That lasts a few matches. And then they have to do something different to be effective against the counter plans made by batsmen.

 

[barah_admi]

What did he do against NZ?

2 wickets, in the first innings of one of the first test, in which he went for 1 run an over. The second test, Pakistan batted once and Shah picked up almost all the available wickets. Even then, carrying an injury, he bowled an immaculate line and never went for more than 2 runs an over.

 

[hadi123]

He wasn't great in the 2nd match but it was his first match in 1.5 months and he had no match practice going into it. I wouldn't worry about his form as of yet.

 

[Sherlock]

So, what's wrong in saying he needs to adapt?

it's not abnormal - new bowler comes on to the scene, and due to that novelty factor takes many wickets.

That lasts a few matches. And then they have to do something different to be effective against the counter plans made by batsmen.

Nothing wrong with adapting, but for heavens sake at-least give him time to get back to full fitness.

We must have the biggest/quickest judgemental fans in cricket. We want instant success or that particular player has somehow regressed.

I understand the issue we have at the moment, but that doesn't mean jumping on every small issue when the biggest issue we have is the batting unit and captain being mentally weak.