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Mohammad Amir proving he's the leader of Pakistan's pace attack

Amir definitely is Paks best pace bowler outside SC . On flat pitches though he needs to get his pace up , but from a batsmen’s perspective I would rather face Abbas than Amir cos as harmless he seems can produce those unplayable deliveries which I can’t see any other pak pacer produce currently. That said he needs to do better if he’s to make an impact on results
 
Leader of the attack just needs to man up and play UAE tests as well. Can't afford to lose another series in the UAE. Aamir has a responsibly as leader to ensure that UAE becomes a fortress again .
 
Ugh, so who else is the leader? :misbah

... I Guess Abbas who is wicketless since NZ series?.... OK, yes, 1 wicket.

Of course, in such a situation, a person who is actually taking wickets need to 'justify' being the leader. Yeah right.

Can you please confirm what formula was used here to carry out the calculation to reach this conclusion? :afaq

Never have I ever said, that Abbas is the leader of Pakistan’s pace battery.
He still needs to perform against top oppositions but has shown good potential.

Hasan and Shaheen Shah are still new in the Test team and they have to establish their places in the first XI.

And then comes Amir, Amir has all the ingredients to become an ATG and is currently the most experienced bowler in this team. He rightfully gets called the leader of our fast-bowling attack by many of us including me.

But in my opinion, Amir has to take more wickets to be “really” get called the leader of the pace attack. Sometimes he lacks it when the team is in need of wickets.
 
Abbas in the first innings and Hasan are failing overseas where they are expected to perform.

So the leader needs others to fail to justify himself as leader. If he is the leader, and I am not convinced that he is, then the state of Pakistan bowling can only be described as sorry.

Firstly a bowler who doesn't make the playing 11 on slow pitches cannot justify himself as the leader of the pace attack since half the times he wouldn't even play.

Secondly it's amazing how this thread was quite for 4 sessions! for 4 sessions Amir picked one wicket in total. Thread gets bumped after he does a clean up job, though granted he did a very good job. Actually I even bumped the 2018 thread yesterday where we had this discussion before but no one could reply.

People are just reading the final figures and going on how great Amir bowled. Amir has got 4/88 and Steyn got 4/85, Amir has a better average than Dale Steyn this series. But can anyone seriously say with a straight face that Amir bowled better than Dale Steyn?

Amir's performances remind me of how Anderson went about last time in the UAE. He would bowl extremely economical spells and come back with ultimate figures like 3/57-average 19, what that doesn't show is that he took would usually take 25 overs for that and Pakistan would score 400+. Exactly the same thing as Amir here. Great figures but utterly without impact. These are the sort of bowling performances you get from support bowlers. That has how Amir has bowled like, a very good support bowler.

The thing is though Abbas isn't a strike bowler as well. He follows the formula of Philander but Philander has 2 great strike bowlers on his side(btw Big Vern only managed 2 wickets at 43 this match at a ground where he averages 16, might not have been the pitch for these bowlers). But Abbas earned the position of leader of the attack by being the best bowler for over an year and delivering at all venues and not just playing when conditions suit. Abbas has failed in a grand total of 2 matches, second NZ test where he went wicketless and this match. NZ test was where he picked up his injury and didn't bowl too much as well and this test was his first match on bouncy tracks with no practice right after the injury lay-off and that too on a pitch where Philander himself averaged 43. 2 matches aren't enough to take away his hard earned title especially when he has no experience of these conditions.

If Pakistan means to get the most out of Amir and Abbas then they need a Strike bowler. Pakistan's best bet in that regard is Hassan Ali as Shaheen is still too raw. When Pakistan needed to defend 149 the supposed leader of the pace attack did absolutely nothing but his usual stuff of containment. The inexperienced Hassan Ali was the one who struck and almost had SA 2 down for less than 20 only for Fakhar to shell the chance. But people who can't be bothered to look past averages won't understand the worth of impact and intent. Meanwhile Amir was bowling his usual defensive lines and came back wicketless.


And about that "expected to perform". Amir was the one who was expected to perform and bowl like a strike bowler because he has the experience of 2 tours of Australia and 2 tours of NZ. He is the guy who should know how to run through sides but instead he hasn't even managed 6 wickets in a match in the past 12 months where he bowled in England, Ireland and South Africa despite being an experienced campaigner.
 
Never have I ever said, that Abbas is the leader of Pakistan’s pace battery.
He still needs to perform against top oppositions but has shown good potential.

Hasan and Shaheen Shah are still new in the Test team and they have to establish their places in the first XI.

And then comes Amir, Amir has all the ingredients to become an ATG and is currently the most experienced bowler in this team. He rightfully gets called the leader of our fast-bowling attack by many of us including me.

But in my opinion, Amir has to take more wickets to be “really” get called the leader of the pace attack. Sometimes he lacks it when the team is in need of wickets.

Yes in that regard he may be called the leader being the senior and experienced campaigner who should know his stuff. But by that regard Shafiq and Azhar are the leaders of our batting line up but are they really "leading" it?
 
Leader of the attack just needs to man up and play UAE tests as well. Can't afford to lose another series in the UAE. Aamir has a responsibly as leader to ensure that UAE becomes a fortress again .

He's lost his pace and he's not getting it back training at NCA. Mickey has to introduce him to specialists in South Africa.
 
He's lost his pace and he's not getting it back training at NCA. Mickey has to introduce him to specialists in South Africa.

What is the issue with him. Is it his knee? He doesn't seem to accelerate to the crease like he used to in 2009/10 season when he as at his fastest. It is it something else?
 
What is the issue with him. Is it his knee? He doesn't seem to accelerate to the crease like he used to in 2009/10 season when he as at his fastest. It is it something else?

His glutes are dead, he's lost his high arm load up and and he's just running in front on with a torso heavy bowling action which will fatigue him over time because he's getting nothing from his legs. That explosion is something that can be recovered because his genetics didn't change just because he didn't play for 5 years. I posted pictures of pre and post ban Amir to compare the technical differences, I can't remember the thread it was in. Maybe, [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] knows.
 
Never have I ever said, that Abbas is the leader of Pakistan’s pace battery.
He still needs to perform against top oppositions but has shown good potential.

Hasan and Shaheen Shah are still new in the Test team and they have to establish their places in the first XI.

And then comes Amir, Amir has all the ingredients to become an ATG and is currently the most experienced bowler in this team. He rightfully gets called the leader of our fast-bowling attack by many of us including me.

But in my opinion, Amir has to take more wickets to be “really” get called the leader of the pace attack. Sometimes he lacks it when the team is in need of wickets.

So if Amir picks up 8 wickets in 3 innings at an average of under 22 and economy of 2.6 he isn't the leader of the pack.

However, if he picks up 3 wickets tomorrow before SA score 41 he will be the leader of the back?

Bizarre criteria in my opinion...

Having said that, I think with Amir, Abbas, Hassan and Shaheen we have an extremely promising pace bowling attack alhumdullilah, which we should look to stick with. I don't care who the "leader" of the pack is as long as all 4 perform individually and as a unit. Yasir & Shadab should also support these 4 as and when required, depending on conditions.

The question is - who is capable of leading our batting? Since Mis-You retired we have really been missing leaders in the batting department - particularly in Test cricket. This has been the primary reason for our poor run of results in recent times.
 
Yes in that regard he may be called the leader being the senior and experienced campaigner who should know his stuff. But by that regard Shafiq and Azhar are the leaders of our batting line up but are they really "leading" it?
That is exactly the reason why we have ruined our best chance of winning a Test series in South Africa, because our so-called seniors (Asad, Azhar and Sarfraz) haven’t performed to their expectations.

However I’m very happy to see Amir perform and what I have is that he is getting his in swing to right hander back.
 
That is exactly the reason why we have ruined our best chance of winning a Test series in South Africa, because our so-called seniors (Asad, Azhar and Sarfraz) haven’t performed to their expectations.

However I’m very happy to see Amir perform and what I have is that he is getting his in swing to right hander back.

*seen
 
His glutes are dead, he's lost his high arm load up and and he's just running in front on with a torso heavy bowling action which will fatigue him over time because he's getting nothing from his legs. That explosion is something that can be recovered because his genetics didn't change just because he didn't play for 5 years. I posted pictures of pre and post ban Amir to compare the technical differences, I can't remember the thread it was in. Maybe, [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] knows.



This spell was bowled 6 years after he was banned. This was the only spell I have seen him bowl post ban where he looked not only explosive in terms of speed but he was getting extra bounce aswell as banana late swing.
 

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So the leader needs others to fail to justify himself as leader. If he is the leader, and I am not convinced that he is, then the state of Pakistan bowling can only be described as sorry.

Firstly a bowler who doesn't make the playing 11 on slow pitches cannot justify himself as the leader of the pace attack since half the times he wouldn't even play.

Secondly it's amazing how this thread was quite for 4 sessions! for 4 sessions Amir picked one wicket in total. Thread gets bumped after he does a clean up job, though granted he did a very good job. Actually I even bumped the 2018 thread yesterday where we had this discussion before but no one could reply.

People are just reading the final figures and going on how great Amir bowled. Amir has got 4/88 and Steyn got 4/85, Amir has a better average than Dale Steyn this series. But can anyone seriously say with a straight face that Amir bowled better than Dale Steyn?

Amir's performances remind me of how Anderson went about last time in the UAE. He would bowl extremely economical spells and come back with ultimate figures like 3/57-average 19, what that doesn't show is that he took would usually take 25 overs for that and Pakistan would score 400+. Exactly the same thing as Amir here. Great figures but utterly without impact. These are the sort of bowling performances you get from support bowlers. That has how Amir has bowled like, a very good support bowler.

The thing is though Abbas isn't a strike bowler as well. He follows the formula of Philander but Philander has 2 great strike bowlers on his side(btw Big Vern only managed 2 wickets at 43 this match at a ground where he averages 16, might not have been the pitch for these bowlers). But Abbas earned the position of leader of the attack by being the best bowler for over an year and delivering at all venues and not just playing when conditions suit. Abbas has failed in a grand total of 2 matches, second NZ test where he went wicketless and this match. NZ test was where he picked up his injury and didn't bowl too much as well and this test was his first match on bouncy tracks with no practice right after the injury lay-off and that too on a pitch where Philander himself averaged 43. 2 matches aren't enough to take away his hard earned title especially when he has no experience of these conditions.

If Pakistan means to get the most out of Amir and Abbas then they need a Strike bowler. Pakistan's best bet in that regard is Hassan Ali as Shaheen is still too raw. When Pakistan needed to defend 149 the supposed leader of the pace attack did absolutely nothing but his usual stuff of containment. The inexperienced Hassan Ali was the one who struck and almost had SA 2 down for less than 20 only for Fakhar to shell the chance. But people who can't be bothered to look past averages won't understand the worth of impact and intent. Meanwhile Amir was bowling his usual defensive lines and came back wicketless.


And about that "expected to perform". Amir was the one who was expected to perform and bowl like a strike bowler because he has the experience of 2 tours of Australia and 2 tours of NZ. He is the guy who should know how to run through sides but instead he hasn't even managed 6 wickets in a match in the past 12 months where he bowled in England, Ireland and South Africa despite being an experienced campaigner.

Hasan Ali has no performances to suggest he can be a leader, neither his wickets, average or economy are good on overseas tours to justify that, at least Amir has that. In the first Test his second innings performance was not good as Amir's 1st innings where he managed to restrict SA within 220 while Hasan was leaking runs, even in the second innings Amir was building pressure nicely and was nearly about to get a wicket which could have brought 2-3 quickly, when Hasan decided to serve half trackers on the legs and way offside offstump consecutively which released all the pressure that was built.

Hasan Ali is a good bowler and can develop into a leader and a World Class bowler if he manages to gain control otherwise he can't be an effective bowler on quick outfields out of UAE. As of now as per performances Amir has been the best bowler on away tours since last 2 years and he hasn't played much Test cricket inn UAE, maybe he can turn tides there as well come October if he gains some pace.
 
Hasan Ali is a good bowler and can develop into a leader and a World Class bowler if he manages to gain control otherwise he can't be an effective bowler on quick outfields out of UAE. As of now as per performances Amir has been the best bowler on away tours since last 2 years and he hasn't played much Test cricket inn UAE, maybe he can turn tides there as well come October if he gains some pace.

Lol Amir has been playing International Cricket for 3 years now, how much longer do we have to wait for him to get back to normal?

This is how he is.
 
This spell was bowled 6 years after he was banned. This was the only spell I have seen him bowl post ban where he looked not only explosive in terms of speed but he was getting extra bounce aswell as banana late swing.

Give him a few months rest and he'll be able to bowl that speed for a week before tiring out. The mechanics aren't there to maintain that speed.
 
I'd like to know that too. And then plug in stats of other bowlers we have. :najam



Point is, even if you think he's harmless, he's still the best we have.

So that makes him the leader. Others aren't even matching him.

Considering our bowling heritage these guys are barely bareable. He is ok and so are the others but none are even close to what we should expect. The PCB as an organisation are a gravy train for the connected mafia and this is the result.
 
He should be leader of PAK ODI team in next WC. I guess, now I don't need to tell that Captaincy is a personality trait - 12 years Captaincy in domestic from U19 level doesn't make a thick tool suddenly sharp at higher level of International cricket.
 
Give him a few months rest and he'll be able to bowl that speed for a week before tiring out. The mechanics aren't there to maintain that speed.


Post Ban and before that T20 match Amir had played :


1. 5 three day matches for Omar Associates

2. 4 Four day matches for SSGC

3. 16 T20 matches (Cool & Cool T20 Cup + PSL)




So He had considerable number of overs under his belt post 5 years Lay off.




You are an learned Expert on Fast bowling & it's technical/scientific side hence I hope those who matter work it out and he revives himself.
 
His glutes are dead, he's lost his high arm load up and and he's just running in front on with a torso heavy bowling action which will fatigue him over time because he's getting nothing from his legs. That explosion is something that can be recovered because his genetics didn't change just because he didn't play for 5 years. I posted pictures of pre and post ban Amir to compare the technical differences, I can't remember the thread it was in. Maybe, [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] knows.

Remember the post, but don't know how to find it... will add here if I come across it.

Edit: maybe this one - http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...Mohammad-Amir-s-rebirth&p=9205323#post9205323
 
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I think those 5 years out of him done him some real damage mentalty and more importantly technically as CD has mentioned.

He more produce a magical spell here or there , but he is a support bowler and not someone who can lead an attack.
 
So if Amir picks up 8 wickets in 3 innings at an average of under 22 and economy of 2.6 he isn't the leader of the pack.

However, if he picks up 3 wickets tomorrow before SA score 41 he will be the leader of the back?

Bizarre criteria in my opinion...

Well, I guess [MENTION=133920]Fahdi[/MENTION] thinks to be the leader, you have to average 15. And 22 isn't good enough. ;)

Not to forget, averaging 22 last year (2018) with an excellent batting average too.

Nah.

Hasan Ali is the leader! The guy who can't buy a single wicket and can't move the ball or pitch in the right areas, at least for the last several months.
 
Leaders of bowling attacks run through sides. Not get 4-5 wickets for 100 runs with the opposition scoring 400
 
Well, I guess [MENTION=133920]Fahdi[/MENTION] thinks to be the leader, you have to average 15. And 22 isn't good enough. ;)

Not to forget, averaging 22 last year (2018) with an excellent batting average too.

Nah.

Hasan Ali is the leader! The guy who can't buy a single wicket and can't move the ball or pitch in the right areas, at least for the last several months.

Have you been living under a rock? Can't move the ball? Did you even watch his opening spells? He took out their most dangerous batsman twice and had Amla gone as well if not for the drop.
 
I think those 5 years out of him done him some real damage mentalty and more importantly technically as CD has mentioned.

He more produce a magical spell here or there , but he is a support bowler and not someone who can lead an attack.

Not really, his body and fitness has been exposed with the large no of overs he has had to bowl bw 2015 and now, bowlers slow down with time as they go through a decent body of activity but Amir is 25-26 years old and hasn't had anywhere near the activity as the likes of bowlers who have been playing the game for the last 14-15 years and still bowling at 140 km/hr plus inspite of suffering some serious injuries ie Steyn.

Am pretty sure had he not been banned, there would have been a significant drop in performance from 2011 onwards as the amount of overs he bowled would have piled up
 
Hasan Ali has no performances to suggest he can be a leader, neither his wickets, average or economy are good on overseas tours to justify that, at least Amir has that. In the first Test his second innings performance was not good as Amir's 1st innings where he managed to restrict SA within 220 while Hasan was leaking runs, even in the second innings Amir was building pressure nicely and was nearly about to get a wicket which could have brought 2-3 quickly, when Hasan decided to serve half trackers on the legs and way offside offstump consecutively which released all the pressure that was built.

Hasan Ali is a good bowler and can develop into a leader and a World Class bowler if he manages to gain control otherwise he can't be an effective bowler on quick outfields out of UAE. As of now as per performances Amir has been the best bowler on away tours since last 2 years and he hasn't played much Test cricket inn UAE, maybe he can turn tides there as well come October if he gains some pace.

Did I mention Hassan is the leader? I said Hassan is a strike bowler and in that regard needs to be backed, in the future he can be the leader of this attack. He lacks discipline and experience but he is our best bet at a proper attacking bowler.

You mention the first innings of the first test but remind me what did Amir do with the new ball in the first innings? The answer is NOTHING just like in the second innings, Hassan was the one who struck whereas Amir bowled his usual support bowler stuff. Yes Amir has what it takes to be genuine strike bowler but the current Amir doesn't have the pace, the bite or the attacking mentality that he used to at one point.

A support bowler needs a strike bowler, you can see Amir was much better when he had Hassan to take the role. He got 4 wickets just like this match and didn't have to wait 4 sessions for it.
 
There's no leader. And its ok if there isn't one.

Abbas is good on one day, Amir the other, and then Shaheen the beacon of hope on some other day.
 
Well, I guess [MENTION=133920]Fahdi[/MENTION] thinks to be the leader, you have to average 15. And 22 isn't good enough. ;)

Not to forget, averaging 22 last year (2018) with an excellent batting average too.

Nah.

Hasan Ali is the leader! The guy who can't buy a single wicket and can't move the ball or pitch in the right areas, at least for the last several months.

His remarks weren't even directed at me.

I never even mentioned Hassan was the leader.

Your last remark isn't even factually correct. Hassan struck with the new ball in both innings whereas Amir aka Leader ji didn't.

You need to learn to read what's actually written instead of making stuff up.
 
Not really, his body and fitness has been exposed with the large no of overs he has had to bowl bw 2015 and now, bowlers slow down with time as they go through a decent body of activity but Amir is 25-26 years old and hasn't had anywhere near the activity as the likes of bowlers who have been playing the game for the last 14-15 years and still bowling at 140 km/hr plus inspite of suffering some serious injuries ie Steyn.

Am pretty sure had he not been banned, there would have been a significant drop in performance from 2011 onwards as the amount of overs he bowled would have piled up


The year he got banned the following year he was due to playing county cricket in England. That would have developed his bowling further. Would have learnt to bowl longer spells and would have made his bowling muscles stronger.

Maybe the England series in 2010 over hyped his potential but I'm sure he would have been better had he not got banned than he is now.
 
SA was closing on 400 with 115+ overs and Amir had picked up grand total of 1 wicket till then.

Not sure why this will be a good example of leading any bowling unit.
 
First Hasan Ali outperformed him in 2017 and now Shaheen looks well set to outperform him in 2019.

Even on these lively pitches he can't run through the opposition. The excuses of UAE dead pitches should end after this tour.
 
First Hasan Ali outperformed him in 2017 and now Shaheen looks well set to outperform him in 2019.

Even on these lively pitches he can't run through the opposition. The excuses of UAE dead pitches should end after this tour.

Hasan outplayed him in 2017, but isn't doing it currently, when we will have 3 pacers who are better than amir, then that will be the end of him.Currently we need him as faheem,hassan,Usman are poorer than amir.
 
Hasan outplayed him in 2017, but isn't doing it currently, when we will have 3 pacers who are better than amir, then that will be the end of him.Currently we need him as faheem,hassan,Usman are poorer than amir.

true but he still gets the special treatment for some reason. Our new big thing is Shaheen so its about time Amir gets the same treatment as other average bowlers.
 
35/36 year old Dale Steyn came back from a long injury layoff and can still bowl 145kph, while 26 yeah old Amir still struggles to touch 135kph.

Which shows how much of a harder worker Steyn (the SA system) compared to Amir ( the pakistan system)

Mentally Amir doesnt have the drive to improve his pace which is sad as I believe he physically is possible to bowl 145kph in tests.
 
35/36 year old Dale Steyn came back from a long injury layoff and can still bowl 145kph, while 26 yeah old Amir still struggles to touch 135kph.

Which shows how much of a harder worker Steyn (the SA system) compared to Amir ( the pakistan system)

Mentally Amir doesnt have the drive to improve his pace which is sad as I believe he physically is possible to bowl 145kph in tests.

What are you talking about? Have you even watched the match?

He has bowled every delivery over 135 Kph except the slower ball, consistently between 138-142 Kph.
 
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Post ban Amir is the most overrated player in the history of cricket, khoda pahad nikla chuha type case.
 
Lol lost the new ball duties now as well. Can't get any lower for him
 
Drop him. And don't pick him unless he work on his technique and get back in the side due to his performance in first class. He shouldnt have been selected so soon, as he should have been part of domestic circuit, honed his action and technique and then worked his way up.
 
He hasn't been needed in this series, but still is by far the best death bowler in the country. Definitely need him for the flat pitches that will be in UK.
 
Amir has not been able to swing the ball. But he is still very valuable player for Pakistan. Despite lack of wickets he is seldom expensive because of his control over line, length and awkward angles.

He stays calm in big matches, pressure situations. And he can give support to a lower order batsman for few overs as he has the ability to hang in there with the bat.
 
Amir has not been able to swing the ball. But he is still very valuable player for Pakistan. Despite lack of wickets he is seldom expensive because of his control over line, length and awkward angles.
He stays calm in big matches, pressure situations. And he can give support to a lower order batsman for few overs as he has the ability to hang in there with the bat.

Those qualities do not make up for his (lack of) primary role as an opening bowler.
 
Amir bowled well today. Happy with his form, we must also remember he is a decent no.9 batsman if needed. I would stick with him in the final ODI
 
Amir has not been able to swing the ball. But he is still very valuable player for Pakistan. Despite lack of wickets he is seldom expensive because of his control over line, length and awkward angles.

He stays calm in big matches, pressure situations. And he can give support to a lower order batsman for few overs as he has the ability to hang in there with the bat.

Spot on analysis here.
 
Congratulations to Amir and his fans, he took a wicket in today's match.
 
Those qualities do not make up for his (lack of) primary role as an opening bowler.

That's true. But there is also position of a third seamer. Not to mention, except Afridi no other bowler has recently shown enough consistency and form to be considered a relatively secure option as an opening bowler. Hasan Ali either gets wickets or gets hammered. Usman has played too little so far and has been injury prone lately.
 
That's true. But there is also position of a third seamer. Not to mention, except Afridi no other bowler has recently shown enough consistency and form to be considered a relatively secure option as an opening bowler. Hasan Ali either gets wickets or gets hammered. Usman has played too little so far and has been injury prone lately.

Hasan Ali and UKS at least pick up one or two wickets every other game.

Amir has just taken ONE wicket in the past five games.
 
Hasan Ali and UKS at least pick up one or two wickets every other game.

Amir has just taken ONE wicket in the past five games.

This was only his second ODI after the comeback, he was already sidelined and punished for his lack of performance before that. No bowler did anything with the ball in the first ODI and he did fine in his second match since the comeback.
So, counting his crimes, for which he has already suffered is not an estimate of his performance.

Usman and Hasan have their own credentials and Amir his own. Inshort, since the comeback, during the tests and these 2 ODIs, Amir has not done badly at all.
 
The loss of pace is alarming he was regularly in the 140’s just a year back now he consistently bowls130’s even in Odis
 
If your any specific bowler losing his pace it means that the bowler got some issue on his technique or fitness but if all bowlers are facing the same issue then surely it's gonna be something wrong with the coaching staffs, I am not a big fan of Amir but the way everyone is losing the pace is really alarming. We should forget about Champions trophy now or else they are going to start bowling with 125 - 130
 
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If i remember right, up until CT final many were not happy with Amer in the side. He just produced that one performance. On either side he was indifferent. Due to importance of the match some forgot his performance in the CT before the final. At this point inconsistent.
 
8 overs and 40 runs so far. More economical than others and picked up one wicket as well.
 
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