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MS Dhoni and Shoaib Malik have cost India and Pakistan this World Cup, respectively!

Pakistan made amends but it was too late.

Dhoni was playing on past reputation and trust of the juniors who revered him. Malik was playing on the basis on nothing really.
 
Kaptan said:
No. Kohli lost us the world cup.
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Not as a batsman. But as I have felt and said before, along with several others here, India will not win a big tournament with him as captain. He is similar to Tendulkar - they are so desperate to win, it eludes them when they're leading.

Unfortunately don't see him stepping down or the BCCI giving captaincy to Rohit who has that weird winning touch that Dhoni had as captain.
 
Insult to Dhoni ... a Big time insult to compare him with a ***** called Malik.. I will take the non performing or out of form dhoni over him any time any day..:jimmy
 
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I think both played to their abilities, blame the management of both countries who persisted with them despite their performances over the last one year.
 
Seniority culture really hurts subcontinental teams. Hafeez, Malik and Dhoni shouldn't have been anywhere close to their teams. Same with Mashrafe Mortaza for Bangladesh. Either you perform or you perish.
 
How is Dhoni being mentioned in the same sentence as Malik-Mash, he was good today they were taking the match to the last, hit a 50 when our famous top order crumbled.
 
Plumb said:
Insult to Dhoni ... a Big time insult to compare him with a ***** called Malik.. I will take the non performing or out of form dhoni over him any time any day..:jimmy
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There was no comparrison made of dhoni and malik in relation to each other!
The thread is about both dhoni and malik, independently, costing their team the world cup!!
 
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JaDed said:
How is Dhoni being mentioned in the same sentence as Malik-Mash, he was good today they were taking the match to the last, hit a 50 when our famous top order crumbled.
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And couldn't accelerate when needed.
 
Malik was dropped before he could cause more damage, so he can't be blamed. Hafeez who played all matches was more responsible, along with Fakhar.
 
Captain caveman said:
There was no comparrison made of dhoni and malik in relation to each other!
The thread is about both dhoni and malik, independently, costing their team the world cup!!
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No Dhoni didnt cost... He may have won a match or two behind the stumps with his wise moves... take him off the keeping and you will see how it affects the game!!! He is the genius behind the stumps making a huge impact in the game which scoreboard will never tell you
 
I have to say that Dhoni cost India the match. Had Jajedja come in earlier probably in many games it might have been a different story
 
Plumb said:
No Dhoni didnt cost... He may have won a match or two behind the stumps with his wise moves... take him off the keeping and you will see how it affects the game!!! He is the genius behind the stumps making a huge impact in the game which scoreboard will never tell you
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So you say no to dhoni costing india the wc?
 
i would take 1 eyed, 1 legged, 1 armed Dhoni over our "so-called senoior" malik .... but yes... both of them cost us the game ....
cant believe indians blaming Kholi ? how abt KL Rahual or "only score when dropped" sharma ? wat abt Kartick?
 
aloo paratha said:
Seniority culture really hurts subcontinental teams. Hafeez, Malik and Dhoni shouldn't have been anywhere close to their teams. Same with Mashrafe Mortaza for Bangladesh. Either you perform or you perish.
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And you have won the prize!!
Sorry, i forgot to mention mortaza in the thread!!
 
JaDed said:
True but that was dependent upon Jaddu , Dhoni nowhere cost us this match if anything stayed on to help Jaddu.
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But there was a phase where he should have accelerated along with Jaddu, cannot leave everything at last overs.
 
Captain caveman said:
So you say no to dhoni costing india the wc?
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NO WAY!!! top order cost India this game plain and simple.. Dhoni saved from having embarrassing defeat if not for him ind would have lost by 100+ runs.. He is the one who kept JAdega going and took the game deep. On the other hand having MAlik in the team means you playing with 10 players:jimmy
 
JaDed said:
How is Dhoni being mentioned in the same sentence as Malik-Mash, he was good today they were taking the match to the last, hit a 50 when our famous top order crumbled.
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Well todays innings was still questionable, he was something like 40 off 65 when Jadeja got out, he really put a lot of pressure on him. Batting slowly is okay until the last 6-7 overs but he still wasn't able to help Jadeja.
 
Captain caveman said:
50 odd from 70+ deliveries!!
What a finisher!!
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If the great Kohli and even greater Rahul, would have scored even half of that. We would have easily won the match.

I am not even asking for run a ball century.
Just 20-30 of 50 would have worked.
 
Dhoni might be past his best but he kept one end locked when the team was 5 down and then 6 down.. That was the reason Jadeja could hit so freely..
In the end he should have batted at a much better SR but hes not the reason India lost
 
Comparing Malik and Dhoni... A mediocre burden all his career vs someone whos past his best but still an asset nonetheless.
Light and day between the class of these two gentlemen.
 
This is an easy one ..Top 3 cost India this match by scoring 3 runs between them . Dhoni took it deep all be it slow start however it was not a huge total 240 and 9 out of 10 times i back India to get it . They simply Choked!!

One thing I would also like to add . Kane Williamson attacking field setting was brilliant.
 
I dont think the thread its really a comparison of two players. Its how both were under performers and deadweights for their own teams. I feel that Dhoni had a larger part to play in regards to the downfall
 
classic said:
This is an easy one ..Top 3 cost India this match by scoring 3 runs between them . Dhoni took it deep all be it slow start however it was not a huge total 240 and 9 out of 10 times i back India to get it . They simply Choked!!

One thing I would also like to add . Kane Williamson attacking field setting was brilliant.
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Na jadeja almost won it for india with a brilliant innings!
Dhoni was a passenger!!!
 
imrankhannsu said:
I dont think the thread its really a comparison of two players. Its how both were under performers and deadweights for their own teams. I feel that Dhoni had a larger part to play in regards to the downfall
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Yes sir you are correct!
Thank goodness some people understand the crux of this thread!
 
Even though Dhoni should've retired ages ago, I would much rather have him than Sarfraz.
 
Rana said:
Pakistan made amends but it was too late.

Dhoni was playing on past reputation and trust of the juniors who revered him. Malik was playing on the basis on nothing really.
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thats what you get when you hire illiterates as selectors, malik has an average of 13 in england, *** were they selecting him?
 
Grunge101 said:
Dhoni might be past his best but he kept one end locked when the team was 5 down and then 6 down.. That was the reason Jadeja could hit so freely..
In the end he should have batted at a much better SR but hes not the reason India lost
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Thats one way of looking at it, another way would be dhoni put all the pressure on jadeja to score the runs, while he himself took a back seat and looked after his own interest, himself!!!
 
Age-old problem of Asian cricket where so-called seniors will not move on when their time is up. Instead they hang around taking up the place of a better and younger player.
 
Dhoni was not as bad as Malik was. Its real hard to sail the ship once your workhorse top order goes 5/3.
 
Dhoni quite possibly the first cricketer to knock out 2 teams in one tournament.
 
Captain caveman said:
50 odd from 70+ deliveries!!
What a finisher!!
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Target was 240 not 340. Nothing wrong with a 70 ball 50 especially when the team is 24/4.

If it wasn't for Dhoni and Jaddu the match would have been over inside 35 overs.

Even a 37-year old Dhoni could play at 70 but Hardik Pandya couldn't go beyond a SR of 50!

Stop comparing an ATG like Dhoni to a nobody like Malik. Malik can play for another 20 years and still wouldn't be 10% of the cricketer Dhoni has been.
 
pillionrider said:
Not as a batsman. But as I have felt and said before, along with several others here, India will not win a big tournament with him as captain. He is similar to Tendulkar - they are so desperate to win, it eludes them when they're leading.

Unfortunately don't see him stepping down or the BCCI giving captaincy to Rohit who has that weird winning touch that Dhoni had as captain.
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Lol. That is just superstition. No professional team will make anybody captain because of his magical ‘winning touch’. Tendulkar was a poor captain and never won any. Kohli won ODI series in all SENA countries except England. Our bowling has really blossomed under him. So I dont think so there is any need to replace him as captain. He need to work on his nerves/ego during knockout matches though.
 
ak619 said:
Target was 240 not 340. Nothing wrong with a 70 ball 50 especially when the team is 24/4.

If it wasn't for Dhoni and Jaddu the match would have been over inside 35 overs.

Even a 37-year old Dhoni could play at 70 but Hardik Pandya couldn't go beyond a SR of 50!

Stop comparing an ATG like Dhoni to a nobody like Malik. Malik can play for another 20 years and still wouldn't be 10% of the cricketer Dhoni has been.
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No one is comparing malik to dhoni, try to understand the thread and then post!

Dhoni was taking singles in the last 4 overs, when the required run rate was 10.
As commentators at the time, gangully and ian smith said, 10 runs an over for 4 overs is quite gettable in this age!
He left it all on jadeja to do and even ian smith said that dhoni was putting too much pressure on jadeja and should try to hit some boundaries, instead of taking singles!
 
Malik wasnt as costly as Dhoni. He got our cheaply. He should not have been in the squad. Dhoni has batted for long periods in 2 games and the way he has batted has played some part in the defeat.

Dhoni needs to retire. His reflexes are gone. He still has the aura but I don't think teams are fearing him as much as they once did.
 
Hasan123 said:
Malik wasnt as costly as Dhoni. He got our cheaply. He should not have been in the squad. Dhoni has batted for long periods in 2 games and the way he has batted has played some part in the defeat.

Dhoni needs to retire. His reflexes are gone. He still has the aura but I don't think teams are fearing him as much as they once did.
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True! But india had batting after dhoni, we had no more batsman after malik, remember imad was also dropped!
 
Captain caveman said:
True! But india had batting after dhoni, we had no more batsman after malik, remember imad was also dropped!
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To be fair for today's defeat Indian top 3 need to take responsibility. If one of them even got to 50, India would have won today.

India have Pant to replace Dhoni. They probably wanted his experience for the WC. Don't think they will be making this mistake again. I think he will announce his retirement in a few weeks.
 
Captain caveman said:
No one is comparing malik to dhoni, try to understand the thread and then post!

Dhoni was taking singles in the last 4 overs, when the required run rate was 10.
As commentators at the time, gangully and ian smith said, 10 runs an over for 4 overs is quite gettable in this age!
He left it all on jadeja to do and even ian smith said that dhoni was putting too much pressure on jadeja and should try to hit some boundaries, instead of taking singles!
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Pant and Pandya played out Santner for 5 overs giving 5 runs.

Why aren't you holding them to the same yardstick? Is it just because Dhoni is older that his dot balls are being highlighted?

Pandya faced Santer for 17 balls and scored only 2 runs. How come his dot balls are being excused?

Dhoni was playing the way he has always played. That's always been His strategy. His game has always been about taking it down to the last 2-3 overs. He was doing exactly the right thing.

Jadeja shouldn't have gone for that shot against Boult. As we saw, just before Dhoni got run out, the equation was down to 25 off 11 balls. If Dhoni didn't get run out, India would have probably gotten those runs. If Jadeja was still there at 25 off 11, India would have won 100%.
 
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Na,

Dhoni definitely had a major contribution to Indias loss today and generally batted just a little slow throughout this tourney, he was one of the players that cost India there tournament , but lets not forget the fact that he is Dhoni, and even well past it he played sensible knocks like the one today, if only he had batted a little faster then India imo were through to the final.

Malik on the other hand made two ducks, each time he barely wasted deliveries and those matches weren't vital in the sense that we were expected to lose them, we won the matches that we should have bar WI (in which Malik if I recall didn't play), and it was that match which unfortunately cost us the tourney both in terms of run rate and points.

So no, Malik didn't cost us the tournament, we got rid of him before he may have.
 
came across a lot of people blaming Dhoni badly off late .Just can't understand .... Team was reduced to 5/3 with 2 senior top order batsmen who always get oppertunities at the top back in the pavilion. Even new comers couldn't play freely .It is there that all the blame is put on Dhoni..... just can't digest...
 
ak619 said:
Pant and Pandya played out Santner for 5 overs giving 5 runs.

Why aren't you holding them to the same yardstick? Is it just because Dhoni is older that his dot balls are being highlighted?

Pandya faced Santer for 17 balls and scored only 2 runs. How come his dot balls are being excused?

Dhoni was playing the way he has always played. That's always been His strategy. His game has always been about taking it down to the last 2-3 overs. He was doing exactly the right thing.

Jadeja shouldn't have gone for that shot against Boult. As we saw, just before Dhoni got run out, the equation was down to 25 off 11 balls. If Dhoni didn't get run out, India would have probably gotten those runs. If Jadeja was still there at 25 off 11, India would have won 100%.
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Look every batsman who got out cheaply or wasted lots of deliveries are to blame for the defeat.
But what you must realise, if you have played any type of cricket, is that the batsman who are out are history, all that matters is the batsman left at the end.
42 runs fom 4 overs was very achieveable, as ganguly and ian smith said on commentary. But dhoni kept taking singles and put all the pressure on jadeja to score boundaries to keep up with the run rate, a point ian smith made. Dhoni needed to help jadeja by trying to score some boundaries, he didn't and jadeja got out. The required runs went to 25 of 11, and thats only because dhoni finally hit a six! Then he got out, leaving an impossible target for the tailenders!
 
Captain caveman said:
Look every batsman who got out cheaply or wasted lots of deliveries are to blame for the defeat.
But what you must realise, if you have played any type of cricket, is that the batsman who are out are history, all that matters is the batsman left at the end.
42 runs fom 4 overs was very achieveable, as ganguly and ian smith said on commentary. But dhoni kept taking singles and put all the pressure on jadeja to score boundaries to keep up with the run rate, a point ian smith made. Dhoni needed to help jadeja by trying to score some boundaries, he didn't and jadeja got out. The required runs went to 25 of 11, and thats only because dhoni finally hit a six! Then he got out, leaving an impossible target for the tailenders!
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I don't understand why people are surprised by this now, though. Dhoni has been doing this since 2012!

Go check back footage from the VB series in Australia. Even back then, Dhoni took the game down to the last over with 14 to get and won the game.

That's his formula. His formula hasn't been as successful in the recent past but today I think he played it very well.

It's unfortunate for India that Dhoni got run out by what is the best run out of this WC.

Dhoni's funda has always been this - if it's the last over and 20 runs are needed, pressure is on the bowler not on the batsman.

India didn't lose because they weren't scoring fast enough. They lost because they lost wickets. If India played out 50 overs with either Dhoni or Jajeda at the crease, then 8 or even 9 times out of 10, India would have won in this scenario.
 
Captain caveman said:
Look every batsman who got out cheaply or wasted lots of deliveries are to blame for the defeat.
But what you must realise, if you have played any type of cricket, is that the batsman who are out are history, all that matters is the batsman left at the end.
42 runs fom 4 overs was very achieveable, as ganguly and ian smith said on commentary. But dhoni kept taking singles and put all the pressure on jadeja to score boundaries to keep up with the run rate, a point ian smith made. Dhoni needed to help jadeja by trying to score some boundaries, he didn't and jadeja got out. The required runs went to 25 of 11, and thats only because dhoni finally hit a six! Then he got out, leaving an impossible target for the tailenders!
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Don't agree with this point or with Ian Smith and Ganguly.

Those last two balls from Boult went for 1 run (and Jadeja's) wicket. Even after that the equation came down to 25 off 11.

So it's not like there weren't enough balls left. If Jadeja had not played that shot in the air and got out, the equation would have remained the same - 25 off 11.

And it was very obvious what Dhoni was trying to do - target Jimmy Neesham. Which was the smart thing to do.

Imagine if you're the 5th/6th bowler in the side and you had to defend 20 runs off the final over of a WC semi final and you are bowling to Dhoni and Jadeja.

How confident would you think Neesham would have felt in that situation?

Lesson for all cricketers - in 50 overs cricket there is always more time than you think. All you have to do is not throw your wicket away. Play all 300 balls and you will win more often than not. Dhoni is living and breathing proof of that. Hopefully guys like Pant, Hardik and Jadeja have realised this after today's match.
 
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Dingolfy said:
Lol. That is just superstition. No professional team will make anybody captain because of his magical ‘winning touch’. Tendulkar was a poor captain and never won any. Kohli won ODI series in all SENA countries except England. Our bowling has really blossomed under him. So I dont think so there is any need to replace him as captain. He need to work on his nerves/ego during knockout matches though.
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It's not superstition. There exists a concept of the touch. If you want to rationalize it, there are plenty of things that go into it. The gut instinct that makes you give the ball to a certain bowler, making selection changes that people question but work for you. But most important for me in a Rohit vs Kohli debate - I seriously believe Rohit holds his nerve as captain far better than Kohli when an assault from the opposition is on.
 
I feel like Dhoni lost the world cup for Pakistan and India :yk
 
^ And with regard to Tendulkar being a poor captain - it was him expecting everyone in the team to play at his level and getting frustrated when they couldn't. More like, he lacked the ability to dumb things down.
 
ak619 said:
Don't agree with this point or with Ian Smith and Ganguly.

Those last two balls from Boult went for 1 run (and Jadeja's) wicket. Even after that the equation came down to 25 off 11.

So it's not like there weren't enough balls left. If Jadeja had not played that shot in the air and got out, the equation would have remained the same - 25 off 11.

And it was very obvious what Dhoni was trying to do - target Jimmy Neesham. Which was the smart thing to do.

Imagine if you're the 5th/6th bowler in the side and you had to defend 20 runs off the final over of a WC semi final and you are bowling to Dhoni and Jadeja.

How confident would you think Neesham would have felt in that situation?

Lesson for all cricketers - in 50 overs cricket there is always more time than you think. All you have to do is not throw your wicket away. Play all 300 balls and you will win more often than not. Dhoni is living and breathing proof of that. Hopefully guys like Pant, Hardik and Jadeja have realised this after today's match.
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I guess if jadeja had hit that ball for 6, you wouldn't be saying what you are about him!
You are not taking into account that it was the multiple 6s jadeja hit, that gave india a chance of victory. If jadeja did not hit those 6s, and dhoni plodding away taking singles, it would not have been 42 runs from 4 overs, but more like 70 runs fom 4 overs!
I understand dhoni has been a champion for india in the past, but he is well past it and definetly cost india this world cup!
Should have picked a youngster instead!
 
Inzi lost Pak the WC. From what I am seeing Indian players seem upset at Ravi as well so lets blame these two geezers. Shoaib did not play almost half of Pak's games, Dhoni is to blame as well with his slow batting. He is just past his best now and should respectfully retire. His white hair makes him look out of place now when playing.
 
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pillionrider said:
^ And with regard to Tendulkar being a poor captain - it was him expecting everyone in the team to play at his level and getting frustrated when they couldn't. More like, he lacked the ability to dumb things down.
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Na, he was a poor captain, just look at his field placements and bowling changes as captain, no need to defend him as a captain, very good batsman, we all know!
 
PakLFC said:
Inzi lost Pak the WC. From what I am seeing Indian players seem upset at Ravi as well so lets blame these two geezers. Shoaib did not play almost half of Pak's games, Dhoni is to blame as well with his slow batting. He is just past his best now and should respectfully retire. His white hair makes him look out of place now when playing.
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Inzi yes, but does ravi actually do anything?
I think kohli runs the show!!
 
PakLFC said:
Inzi lost Pak the WC. From what I am seeing Indian players seem upset at Ravi as well so lets blame these two geezers. Shoaib did not play almost half of Pak's games, Dhoni is to blame as well with his slow batting. He is just past his best now and should respectfully retire. His white hair makes him look out of place now when playing.
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About malik not playing half the matches, this is true, but he caused the damage by scoring 8, 0 and 0, from which pak could not recover!!!
 
pillionrider said:
It's not superstition. There exists a concept of the touch. If you want to rationalize it, there are plenty of things that go into it. The gut instinct that makes you give the ball to a certain bowler, making selection changes that people question but work for you. But most important for me in a Rohit vs Kohli debate - I seriously believe Rohit holds his nerve as captain far better than Kohli when an assault from the opposition is on.
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I see an imran khan/javed miandad situation with kohli/rohit.

Like imran, kohli is inspirational as a captain, but just like miandad, rohit is tactically a much better captain!!!

What to do?!!
 
Pakistanian said:
Malik barely played, lets not blame him.
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True malik hardly played with scores of 8, 0 and 0!!!i
India and WI battered us, but the aussie game was there for the taking, just needed maik to score 30/40 runs and we would have won, he gets out for a duck!!!
We could never make up for the points we lost due to malik playing!!!
 
When will asian teams realise that this is cricket, not a bus service, they can't carry passengers like malik, dhoni and mortaza!!!
 
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