Muslim man told 'this is a Christian country' in racist attack for reading Quran on London Tube

[Saj]

A London Underground passenger was left shocked after a stranger started shouting at him for reading the Quran.

In a video capturing the tirade, you can hear the stranger say: "Let me tell you, this is a Christian country. You behave in our manners and the way we do things."

The incident happened on the District line near Tower Hill, at around 6.40am on Saturday, November 27.

According to the passenger at the receiving end of it all, he was reciting the Quran softly.

The man can also be heard saying: "That's your problem, you have no respect," adding, "I was here and you didn't even have the decency to ask if you could do it."

The victim spoke to MyLondon about the incident but wished to remain anonymous.

He said: "I was in shock at first. Then he continued and that’s when I felt attacked and humiliated.

"He got everyone’s attention and he tried to deny me of my basic right.

"I tried to ignore him many times. All I wanted was to read my Quran as I do every morning."

He continued: "Nobody seemed bothered but him to be fair.

"I told him to move if he was that pressed or to shut up, but he did neither."

British Transport Police have said they are investigating the incident but released no further statement.

The passenger continued: "It’s hard to describe how I felt. It was shocking and scary but I had to keep my composure, ignore him and continue reading.

"My priority was to read my Quran and finish it before I arrive at work, because of him I was unable to do that."

He added: "I genuinely don’t think me reciting the Quran out loud was the problem, I believe that was an excuse to express his feelings and get me to STOP reading the Quran because he believes, 'we shouldn’t be allowed to read our prayers (read Quran) on TfL'.

"There’s more (racist things) he said that was not caught on camera, but I don’t wanna get into that.

"Anyways, I’m calm and collected alhamdulilah but I think his ideology and actions can have a huge affect on others. I hope he realises his mistakes and changes his ways. May Allah guide him to the right path."

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/othe...eading-quran-on-tube/ar-AARis9p?ocid=msedgntp

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Southern African accent there but he has a point... You're on a public transport, not your living room. If he's quiet then it's an issue but he's obviously git an issue with Islam

 

[Saj]

Surely this man can read his Quran on public transport or are people right to have an issue with this?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

100% the guy reading the Quran has only recently found religion and is over compensating.

There is no need to read out loud in public. The quran can be read silently. He is deliberately aggravating people and I think the angry south African is well within his rights to challenge it.

 

[Ryw]

100% the guy reading the Quran has only recently found religion and is over compensating.

There is no need to read out loud in public. The quran can be read silently. He is deliberately aggravating people and I think the angry south African is well within his rights to challenge it.

In public transport people sing songs also, never seen such hostile response towards them?

 

[cricketjoshila]

If he was quietly reading the quran,what was the issue? People read books all the time on a train or bus.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

In public transport people sing songs also, never seen such hostile response towards them?

If someone was singing loudly infront of me I may not say anything id sure as hell want to punch that persons lights out.

The Quran is a work of art and a majestic text. It shouldn't be weaponised in this way and used to show off.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

It’s wrong and should be condemned but the Muslim guy was leading very loudly and it seems he was looking for a confrontation or some sort of trouble

 

[PakLFC]

There is no law in reading the Qur'an or any religious book anywhere. How many Britishers really call themselves Christian may surprise many people. If the UK media keeps going on about Islamic terrorism then such things are bound to happen. Also depends on how "softly" he was reciting our Holy book. In these days it is better for one's own safety to read it in your heart.

 

[finalfantasy7]

100% the guy reading the Quran has only recently found religion and is over compensating.

There is no need to read out loud in public. The quran can be read silently. He is deliberately aggravating people and I think the angry south African is well within his rights to challenge it.

hes not reading loudly, just because his phone microphone right next to him - which will pick his voice up.

deliberately, how would the muslim man deliberately aggravate him, does he know the south African is a Christian - by just sitting thr.

You've claim to many things above, yet no one knows u sat thr first christian/ muslim, if it was the Muslim the Christian should have moved - that train carriage was busy at all - vice versa if it was the Muslim who sat after .

 

[saeedhk]

The Muslim guy was being nuisance and he got called out for it. Unfortunately, these sort of attention-seeking antics are not uncommon. We are not really sure of the circumstances but my hypothesis is that the Muslim guy was looking for some attention.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If someone was singing loudly infront of me I may not say anything id sure as hell want to punch that persons lights out.

The Quran is a work of art and a majestic text. It shouldn't be weaponised in this way and used to show off.

If anyone is making loud noises in a public place, others have the right to object.

 

[cricket4all]

The guy was reading softly according to the article. It's a free country, people sing (especially footy fans), talk loud and all sorts on public transport. Reading softly and not disturbing anyone is his right if he wishes to. If he was reading out aloud and disturbing others that would be different. It's obviously a hate prejudiced reaction by that chap because of what he said. If he was that bothered, he could have asked nicely that please read quietly as he is being disturbed.

And, the nonesense people saying about noises. There's a difference between noises (loud disturbing) and reading quietly. What next, nobody can talk in public transport and will have to mime.

 

[Itachi]

No offense intended towards Muslims who are living and let others live in their own way without creating any conflicts with others but, I've seen that in public clashes like this, one party is always Muslim.

The reaction from non muslims..... Is it due to Islamophobia or is it something that some muslims bringing upon themselves?

One more question, why such cases are more seen in UK than any other country? Is it because Muslims in other countries are more well behaved than in UK?

 

[Itachi]

The guy was reading softly according to the article. It's a free country, people sing (especially footy fans), talk loud and all sorts on public transport. Reading softly and not disturbing anyone is his right if he wishes to. If he was reading out aloud and disturbing others that would be different. It's obviously a hate prejudiced reaction by that chap because of what he said. If he was that bothered, he could have asked nicely that please read quietly as he is being disturbed.

And, the nonesense people saying about noises. There's a difference between noises (loud disturbing) and reading quietly. What next, nobody can talk in public transport and will have to mime.

In the video, it seemed the person was agitated and the video starts at the middle. The person probably have asked in mild manner before the video starts.

Consideration goes both ways. The Muslim man also didn't address his co passengers even seeing that they were agitated.

 

[cricket4all]

In the video, it seemed the person was agitated and the video starts at the middle. The person probably have asked in mild manner before the video starts.

Consideration goes both ways. The Muslim man also didn't address his co passengers even seeing that they were agitated.

Sorry I hadn't seen the video before. Just seen it now. Now seeing it your right that the muslim man seems to be reading loud because he can read much quiter than that. It is not compulsory to read out loud in public. It should be almost whispering to himself when reading. Furthermore, when the other guy was agitated and complained he should have addressed him better and said he didn't mean to disturb and will read quietly. Instead of getting into an 'argument' he should have shown to be considerate but instead carries on reading loud. That's not on. He has a right to read in his mind or whispering but shouldn't disturb others. (The country (UK) is more atheist than Christian lol)

 

[shaz619]

Not a major issue reading Quran, there are those who sing and even play music out loud on the bus or train and no one really will attack someone for it. I agree, you should try not to disturb others, but clearly, the problem here is with the facist / racist bloke.

Christian country lol people only go to Church to marry or for funerals these days and a good Christian wouldn’t behave like an absolute mongrel anyway.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Not a major issue reading Quran, there are those who sing and even play music out loud on the bus or train and no one really will attack someone for it. I agree, you should try not to disturb others, but clearly, the problem here is with the facist / racist bloke.

Christian country lol people only go to Church to marry or for funerals these days and a good Christian wouldn’t behave like an absolute mongrel anyway.

Singing and being overtly religious have different connotations

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No offense intended towards Muslims who are living and let others live in their own way without creating any conflicts with others but, I've seen that in public clashes like this, one party is always Muslim.

The reaction from non muslims..... Is it due to Islamophobia or is it something that some muslims bringing upon themselves?

One more question, why such cases are more seen in UK than any other country? Is it because Muslims in other countries are more well behaved than in UK?

Just because you start off your diatribe with "No offense intended towards Muslims" doesn't mean your offensive assumptions will be let go. Public clashes like this don't always have one party as Muslim, we have also seen many videos from India where public clashes have led to deaths. Actually those often have Muslim victims so in one sense you are right.

As for UK, we see more incidents because there is more freedom of expression here. In third world countries or totalitarian regimes a person would think twice before recording a video on their phone, they might end up getting lynched by a mob or hauled off by the police. Too many variables to make such crass assumptions.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The guy was an idiot for reading aloud. Yes he was within his rights, but he should have enough sense to realise that it might generate a hostile response. Maybe he did it on purpose and that was actually his intention.

 

[street cricketer]

Funny that a Saffer immigrant says this is his country to person who was probably born and brought up in the UK.

Have seen a lot of Aussies say Saffer immigrants tend to be the most racist of immigrants in Australia and tend to be quite explicit with their racism in western countries. I thought it was quite telling coming from the Aussies, who can indulge in a bit of casual racism themselves

 

[Kroll]

The guy was obviously a bigot, he could have requested it politely but had to come out with his bigoted and racist diatribe.

 

[street cricketer]

The guy was an idiot for reading aloud. Yes he was within his rights, but he should have enough sense to realise that it might generate a hostile response. Maybe he did it on purpose and that was actually his intention.

That's a bit harsh. Not sure if he was looking for trouble. I don't think he was actually that loud tbh.

I don't know about you but if I had someone chanting the Bible or Quran verses next to me, it wouldn't bother me. Perhaps because everything goes in India and the concept of "personal space" is not really well developed in India, it might be different in Britain.

Besides, I'm not religious and so it would just be someone chanting verses to me. Maybe it's different for religious people and they see it as a threat to their religious beliefs and so take offence to the act like the bloke in the video did. But even looking from a religious pov, I don't think it should bother someone if he's firm in his own beliefs.

 

[Itachi]

Just because you start off your diatribe with "No offense intended towards Muslims" doesn't mean your offensive assumptions will be let go. Public clashes like this don't always have one party as Muslim, we have also seen many videos from India where public clashes have led to deaths. Actually those often have Muslim victims so in one sense you are right.

As for UK, we see more incidents because there is more freedom of expression here. In third world countries or totalitarian regimes a person would think twice before recording a video on their phone, they might end up getting lynched by a mob or hauled off by the police. Too many variables to make such crass assumptions.

So.... US Muslims are in a restrictive environment than the Muslims in UK.

I'll ask American Muslims to shed light on this aspect. Since they are in that "restrictive" environment, they may answer in a better way.

 

[Itachi]

That's a bit harsh. Not sure if he was looking for trouble. I don't think he was actually that loud tbh.

I don't know about you but if I had someone chanting the Bible or Quran verses next to me, it wouldn't bother me. Perhaps because everything goes in India and the concept of "personal space" is not really well developed in India, it might be different in Britain.

Besides, I'm not religious and so it would just be someone chanting verses to me. Maybe it's different for religious people and they see it as a threat to their religious beliefs and so take offence to the act like the bloke in the video did. But even looking from a religious pov, I don't think it should bother someone if he's firm in his own beliefs.

The way he replied and conflict progressed, it seemed like he was doing it for triggering people and expose discrimination against Muslims via the reactions.

 

[street cricketer]

The way he replied and conflict progressed, it seemed like he was doing it for triggering people and expose discrimination against Muslims via the reactions.

Well even if exposing racism against muslims was his real intention, I'd say he succeeded in doing so in this instance.

 

[Itachi]

Well even if exposing racism against muslims was his real intention, I'd say he succeeded in doing so in this instance.

Nope. Most Muslims will disagree with this approach as we've seen in this thread. The person may have a phobia but in this instance, it more point towards triggering someone again and again until he breaks down. That shows immaturity rather than anything else.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That's a bit harsh. Not sure if he was looking for trouble. I don't think he was actually that loud tbh.

I don't know about you but if I had someone chanting the Bible or Quran verses next to me, it wouldn't bother me. Perhaps because everything goes in India and the concept of "personal space" is not really well developed in India, it might be different in Britain.

Besides, I'm not religious and so it would just be someone chanting verses to me. Maybe it's different for religious people and they see it as a threat to their religious beliefs and so take offence to the act like the bloke in the video did. But even looking from a religious pov, I don't think it should bother someone if he's firm in his own beliefs.

So I watched the video, I was expecting the Muslim guy would be an immigrant, but he spoke flawless English and was quite smooth and confident in rebuffing the saffer who was losing his cool. The Muslim guy is either trying to wind people up, or might just be one of those all in fundamentalists who think the whole world belongs to them. Believe me, there are a good few out there.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Nope. Most Muslims will disagree with this approach as we've seen in this thread. The person may have a phobia but in this instance, it more point towards triggering someone again and again until he breaks down. That shows immaturity rather than anything else.

The approach was wrong, but he got the reaction he wanted, which means street cricketer is correct in his analysis. The saffer should have kept his cool and requested politely instead of shouting and losing control. That Muslim guy ended up owning him.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

100% the guy reading the Quran has only recently found religion and is over compensating.

There is no need to read out loud in public. The quran can be read silently. He is deliberately aggravating people and I think the angry south African is well within his rights to challenge it.

Can't speculate much as we don't know the entire story and we don't know what was his intentions but I think I have an idea of what you are saying.
And staying within that point of discussion, I think it could just be another example of our scholars have lost it all. They highly stress on READING quran and all the benefits and hasanaat thats come with it rather than stressing on letting the followers to know to UNDERSTAND the meaning of Quranic message and bring it in your day to day life.

The purpose of Quran is not to read it out loud on public transportation and put our entire focus on just reading it (many at times without knowing the meaning of what gets recited).

Quran is a message of guidance that you can read, analyze, understand and ponder upon it, put your faith in it (if you feel like it), and then try your best to live your life according to this guidance.

 

[street cricketer]

Nope. Most Muslims will disagree with this approach as we've seen in this thread. The person may have a phobia but in this instance, it more point towards triggering someone again and again until he breaks down. That shows immaturity rather than anything else.

You accept that the Saffer bloke has phobia but then go on to say that the muslim bloke is clearly wrong because he is triggering the Saffer guy's phobia.

What happens when two bearded muslim men talk in arabic or urdu in a public transport and a guy similar to the Saffer raises a hue and cry about invading his private space? Should the bearded muslims also stop talking to each other in their native language just because it's triggering the phobia of the white person?

Or if the person raises a hue and cry about them conversing in arabic or urdu, the two muslims should be submissive and accept the orders of the offended person? Sounds bizarre to me.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

You accept that the Saffer bloke has phobia but then go on to say that the muslim bloke is clearly wrong because he is triggering the Saffer guy's phobia.

What happens when two bearded muslim men talk in arabic or urdu in a public transport and a guy similar to the Saffer raises a hue and cry about invading his private space? Should the bearded muslims also stop talking to each other in their native language just because it's triggering the phobia of the white person?

Or if the person raises a hue and cry about them conversing in arabic or urdu, the two muslims should be submissive and accept the orders of the offended person? Sounds bizarre to me.

You know, what I am going to say may not make much sense and it's my personal opinion where I could be very wrong but one of the measures for all Muslims to judge their your action, is to imagine the scenario and ask yourself, "Would I do this same action in front of prophet (saw) if he was right here watching me"?
Or What would the prophet (Saw) if he was in my place?

If I am an Arab and my verbal speech or my loud recitation in public has triggered someone's phobia or has hurt someone then I may ask myself, "What if it was our prophet (saw) in my place? What he (saw) would've done?"

The gist of it all is, these small moments are actually a test of our patience and they come and go, so quickly that we can't even comprehend.

We should strike a fair balance between having patience and being wise.

In the Islamic theology, God values your patience more than your hot headed self righteous attitude.

 

[gazza619]

If I sit next to some one on the train who is reading the Quran and I hear the Quran, I would be very annoyed as I would class it as invasion of my personal space.

I am saying this as a Muslim.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

No offense intended towards Muslims who are living and let others live in their own way without creating any conflicts with others but, I've seen that in public clashes like this, one party is always Muslim.

The reaction from non muslims..... Is it due to Islamophobia or is it something that some muslims bringing upon themselves?

One more question, why such cases are more seen in UK than any other country? Is it because Muslims in other countries are more well behaved than in UK?

I think it shows where you are getting your information from and what type of information you are getting.

The majority of these types of cases usually involve people speaking a foreign language and being challenged, its usually American videos too.

Its a shame that you are subject to information from an anti-islam echo chamber. I think it has deeply affected you psychologically.

My advice is to keep an open mind and expose yourself to other information sources.

This obsession is not healthy and I think in a few years you may turn violent.

 

[street cricketer]

You know, what I am going to say may not make much sense and it's my personal opinion where I could be very wrong but one of the measures for all Muslims to judge their your action, is to imagine the scenario and ask yourself, "Would I do this same action in front of prophet (saw) if he was right here watching me"?
Or What would the prophet (Saw) if he was in my place?

If I am an Arab and my verbal speech or my loud recitation in public has triggered someone's phobia or has hurt someone then I may ask myself, "What if it was our prophet (saw) in my place? What he (saw) would've done?"

The gist of it all is, these small moments are actually a test of our patience and they come and go, so quickly that we can't even comprehend.

We should strike a fair balance between having patience and being wise.

In the Islamic theology, God values your patience more than your hot headed self righteous attitude.

I don't have the same religious obligations. For me it's a very simple rule, I would like to treat others the same way I would want others to treat me. I would want to treat the muslims (or other minorities) in my country the same way I would want to be treated if I happened to be born as a hindu in a muslim majority country, or a christian majority country for that matter.

I think respecting people's privacy is very important, but at the same time, it's also very important to stand up for our rights. If the muslim in the video was shouting or chanting the verses very loudly, then others would have every right to object to that. But from the video, it looked like the muslim was chanting the verses in the same decibel level as two people speaking with each other. Let's be clear, the Saffer person was not outraged because the muslim was chanting loudly. He was outraged because he was chanting the Quran. If the same muslim was just reading for his exam in the same loudness, I doubt he would have even bothered.

And most definitely, if two people talking in a foreign language invokes phobia in people, then the right course of action is to not stop it and allow the phobia to fester, but counter the phobia of the people. I would like to think myself as not a racist, but I remember years back when I first encountered two Arabs alone in a lift in a popular hospital in India speaking Arabic with each other. I don't know why but I felt very nervous for some reason for the duration I was in the lift. It's not like I have never been around muslims, there are plenty of muslims in India and they all talk either the local language or hindi/urdu, and I've never been nervous around an Indian muslim. But I had bought into the whole mainstream media narrative of Arabs, extremism, terrorism trope and that's not the fault of the Arabs in the lift with me but mine because of a phobia I had developed unknowingly from the media representation of Arab muslims. I think it's absolutely vital to counter such phobia and subconscious biases within people, and you don't do that if you don't make an effort to do so.

 

[Itachi]

You accept that the Saffer bloke has phobia but then go on to say that the muslim bloke is clearly wrong because he is triggering the Saffer guy's phobia.

What happens when two bearded muslim men talk in arabic or urdu in a public transport and a guy similar to the Saffer raises a hue and cry about invading his private space? Should the bearded muslims also stop talking to each other in their native language just because it's triggering the phobia of the white person?

Or if the person raises a hue and cry about them conversing in arabic or urdu, the two muslims should be submissive and accept the orders of the offended person? Sounds bizarre to me.

I stated the person "may" have phobia because I don't know that person and hence he may/may not have it. But for the argument sake, I have taken him having a phobia. But still that doesn't lead to anywhere.

Secondly if I am in a bus/train and someone is even speaking in my mother tongue non stop, it Will annoy me and I'll politely ask them to lower a bit. It has nothing to do with the language or the subject. It is simply giving consideration to what other people may want from you.

 

[street cricketer]

I stated the person "may" have phobia because I don't know that person and hence he may/may not have it. But for the argument sake, I have taken him having a phobia. But still that doesn't lead to anywhere.

Secondly if I am in a bus/train and someone is even speaking in my mother tongue non stop, it Will annoy me and I'll politely ask them to lower a bit. It has nothing to do with the language or the subject. It is simply giving consideration to what other people may want from you.

I watched the video and I don't think the muslim was anywhere near loud enough to cause a nuisance problem to others.

 

[Itachi]

I think it shows where you are getting your information from and what type of information you are getting.

The majority of these types of cases usually involve people speaking a foreign language and being challenged, its usually American videos too.

Its a shame that you are subject to information from an anti-islam echo chamber. I think it has deeply affected you psychologically.

My advice is to keep an open mind and expose yourself to other information sources.

This obsession is not healthy and I think in a few years you may turn violent.

If I am anti Islam sprouting hatred, I would have been banned by mods long time ago (10 years in PP here). I was simply asking questions.

I also disagree with flat earth believers. But that doesn't mean I'll be violent if I meet and talk with person who does believe that.

Except one para, your post doesn't address any of my questions to be honest. It was just a observation and hence I asked.

 

[Itachi]

I watched the video and I don't think the muslim was anywhere near loud enough to cause a nuisance problem to others.

Different people have different tolerance levels. What may nuisance for me, may not be nuisance for you. Moreover, for the same person, different state of mind can trigger different reactions at different times. If I'm already having a bad day, I'll be agitated more which wouldn't have been the case in any other day.

That's why, you need to sometimes study the room and apply common sense. There is "right" and there is common courtesy. Being aware of the environment goes a long way.

 

[Itachi]

The approach was wrong, but he got the reaction he wanted, which means street cricketer is correct in his analysis. The saffer should have kept his cool and requested politely instead of shouting and losing control. That Muslim guy ended up owning him.

I disagree with the conclusion. As a Muslim majority forum like PP, one can trigger Muslim demography again and again to a point where even a polite, humble Muslim man may get agitated and write some words which may be seen as aggressive.

But that doesn't conclude that, that man is aggressive or Islam promotes rudeness.

 

[LaLoco]

Different people have different tolerance levels. What may nuisance for me, may not be nuisance for you. Moreover, for the same person, different state of mind can trigger different reactions at different times. If I'm already having a bad day, I'll be agitated more which wouldn't have been the case in any other day.

That's why, you need to sometimes study the room and apply common sense. There is "right" and there is common courtesy. Being aware of the environment goes a long way.

It is a subway not a room, if the subway had people dancing, singing, moaning, clapping, or as Street Cricketer had mentioned, studying for his exam out loud, the bloke probably would have been okay, it was the reciting of Quran in his personal space that triggered.

Subtle Islamophobia doesn't get anyone banned.

 

[street cricketer]

Different people have different tolerance levels. What may nuisance for me, may not be nuisance for you. Moreover, for the same person, different state of mind can trigger different reactions at different times. If I'm already having a bad day, I'll be agitated more which wouldn't have been the case in any other day.

That's why, you need to sometimes study the room and apply common sense. There is "right" and there is common courtesy. Being aware of the environment goes a long way.

So we are talking about subjective experiences here, not objective. So it's quite possible that you might be a delicate darling and a snowflake, which others are not and hearing someone talk in an alien language in the slightest loudness is enough to cause a nervous breakdown with you.

In that case, it's best that you should leave the place and remove yourself from the environment causing such a nervous breakdown within you. You don't go like "Did you ask my permission before talking in an alien language.. Don't forget that you're in a Christian country, you have to play by our rules here..". I would imagine that's not common courtesy to talk to others like that.

 

[Itachi]

It is a subway not a room, if the subway had people dancing, singing, moaning, clapping, or as Street Cricketer had mentioned, studying for his exam out loud, the bloke probably would have been okay, it was the reciting of Quran in his personal space that triggered.

Subtle Islamophobia doesn't get anyone banned.

Unless you can show another instance where that same person is being OK with dancing, clapping.... It's just here say and doesn't point towards anything else.

 

[Itachi]

So we are talking about subjective experiences here, not objective. So it's quite possible that you might be a delicate darling and a snowflake, which others are not and hearing someone talk in an alien language in the slightest loudness is enough to cause a nervous breakdown with you.

In that case, it's best that you should leave the place and remove yourself from the environment causing such a nervous breakdown within you. You don't go like "Did you ask my permission before talking in an alien language.. Don't forget that you're in a Christian country, you have to play by our rules here..". I would imagine that's not common courtesy to talk to others like that.

I can be a delicate darling or a snow flake and there may many other person like me. That's why I stated that one should be aware of the environment. You may proceed with what you are doing but there may repercussions leading to a conflict which is natural progress of events here in this case.

 

[street cricketer]

I can be a delicate darling or a snow flake and there may many other person like me. That's why I stated that one should be aware of the environment. You may proceed with what you are doing but there may repercussions leading to a conflict which is natural progress of events here in this case.

I would have said the same if someone had any objection to a hindu chanting the Bhagavad Gita or a Christian chanting the Bible in public transport. As long as they're not loud enough to cause a public nuisance, they're free to do so and stand up for themselves if some racist idiot talks smack at them. The key here is no one in the train had an issue with the guy except one person.

Any 'conflict' that's arising here is due to the intolerance of the ranting person and if you keep being submissive because god forbid there might be repercussions, then there will come one day when a person might feel uncomfortable sitting next to you in a flight because you're coloured or the language you speak or the way you dress, and you'll perhaps give your seat away and get off the flight for fear of causing 'conflict and repercussions'.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Some lame responses lol.

There is NO law against reading anything aloud. He wasn't shouting or being aggressive.

Those who claim he is causing an issue or making trouble are the type who would bow down to bigotry very quickly.

If that was me, I'd have told the clown to try and stop me. Cowards can only talk.

 

[Technics 1210]

To the people who say religion is personal, keep it personal, and not public.

The problem is a few bad apples exploit and abuse their right to expression in the UK You will find such people in all ideologies. I have seen Hindus, Christians, Jehovah Witnesses shouted at on the tube.

You don't need to publicise your faith.

 

[KingKhanWC]

To the people who say religion is personal, keep it personal, and not public.

The problem is a few bad apples exploit and abuse their right to expression in the UK You will find such people in all ideologies. I have seen Hindus, Christians, Jehovah Witnesses shouted at on the tube.

You don't need to publicise your faith.

Its normally the Islamaphobes or those who are scared/ashamed who say this.

Hari Krishna guys are banging instruments and singing loudly in town centres all over the country.

Carol singers turn up to your house uninvited.

 

[Technics 1210]

Its normally the Islamaphobes or those who are scared/ashamed who say this.

Hari Krishna guys are banging instruments and singing loudly in town centres all over the country.

Carol singers turn up to your house uninvited.

Muslims also play Qur’anic verses aloud near Marble Arch/Hyde Park - no one says a thing.

It’s got nothing to do with being an Islamophobe. When out in the open, I can walk away, when in the tube, I have no option.

If religion is personal, no need to broadcast it (and I include all religions in this statement) - do you disagree with this statement? If so, why?

The only reason the OP is news is cos the climate for Islam in then in the past 2 decades has been hostile.

 

[Technics 1210]

Oh, and yes, the reason why the South African had a problem is the same reason why one would have a problem with carol singers on their door stop - no one wants religion rammed/forced down their throats.

Religion is personal - keep it that way.

 

[Buffet]

So we are talking about subjective experiences here, not objective. So it's quite possible that you might be a delicate darling and a snowflake, which others are not and hearing someone talk in an alien language in the slightest loudness is enough to cause a nervous breakdown with you.

In that case, it's best that you should leave the place and remove yourself from the environment causing such a nervous breakdown within you. You don't go like "Did you ask my permission before talking in an alien language.. Don't forget that you're in a Christian country, you have to play by our rules here..". I would imagine that's not common courtesy to talk to others like that.

Are you seriously equating two people chatting in a different language with one religious person chanting religious text? I don't think they are the same. I come across tons of people chatting in a language I don't understand. I can't understand it, no big deal. I may be slightly annoyed, but that's about it. If one person simply starts saying 1-100 and back to 100-1 loudly then I will get surely very annoyed. It's not remotely similar to two-person chatting with each other.

Both of them were idiots. The first idiotic act was to chant religious text in the tube and the second was saying that you can't do that due to being a Christian country. The second person could have requested the same without mentioning Christian country. Reading Bible loudly will be also an idiotic thing.

There is no law - That's a poor way to think. We don't do many things even if no law is broken. Counting 1-100 loudly won't break the law. Chanting religious text won't break the law, but it is not the way to behave inside a tube.

Now someone can ask, what about singing. The majority of people don't feel annoyed even if they don't recognize the song or language. Most humans like beats and tunes and have fun listening to them. That's the prime reason we can see many singers. The majority of travelers will be annoyed with religious chants or counting to 1-100. The majority are not likely to be annoyed with songs. If they were then it would have been as rare as chanting religious text.

Anyway, I agree that the best action is to simply move away. I would have done the same rather than trying to argue with a nut case.

 

[finalfantasy7]

Oh, and yes, the reason why the South African had a problem is the same reason why one would have a problem with carol singers on their door stop - no one wants religion rammed/forced down their throats.

Religion is personal - keep it that way.

sorry but were not in france - so keeping it personal -isnt the problem

 

[Waq]

Let me put a slightly different spin on this.

Many mainland trains in the UK have quiet zones / cabins where loud noise and talking on your phone is discouraged / prohibited.

The London underground to the best of my knowledge has not got any quiet zones / cabins.

What if the Muslim person was reciting the Quran on a train with a quiet zone, or even harder to endure, an 8 hour international flight? Is this fair on a fellow passenger? Would a complaint be justified?

The white male who we can assume is a non Muslim in this incident could have been much more patient or kind with his words.

I guess the initial issue to be agreed regardless of racism is whether reciting Quran loudly is acceptable? If yes, where do you draw the line? What about a loud azaan (call to prayer) being played on a portable speaker on a hot summers day in Hyde Park with a carnival like atmosphere of salsa lessons, roller skaters etc?

Do I want somebody to read the bible out loud next to me? No I don’t.

 

[Shah]

I viewed a similar altercation once. I was in the waiting room of a medical clinic in Canada. There were many people there waiting for their appointments and it was relatively quiet. All of a sudden the azaan went off on one arab hijabi lady's phone and really loudly. Another lady asked her to turn it off as she did not want to hear it. The muslim lady said 'I don't care' and she did not leave the room with the phone or even turn the phone off or the volume down. Needless to say, the objecting lady and all the other people present were not impressed by the muslim lady who forced them to hear the full azaan loudly in a confined internal space and was also rude. She was not a good ambassador for Islam.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Muslims also play Qur’anic verses aloud near Marble Arch/Hyde Park - no one says a thing.

It’s got nothing to do with being an Islamophobe. When out in the open, I can walk away, when in the tube, I have no option.

If religion is personal, no need to broadcast it (and I include all religions in this statement) - do you disagree with this statement? If so, why?

The only reason the OP is news is cos the climate for Islam in then in the past 2 decades has been hostile.

The issue is about noise not religion being personal or not.

There is no law against talking, hymning, singing or reciting in a public place or on public transport.

I don't use public transport esp in London as its trash. UK's buses, trains, trams etc are a disgrace something out of the 3rd world.

I would suggest you do and others do what I do, buy some headphones when in public.

The clown obviously had an brainwashed Islamophobic mentality.

 

[street cricketer]

Are you seriously equating two people chatting in a different language with one religious person chanting religious text? I don't think they are the same. I come across tons of people chatting in a language I don't understand. I can't understand it, no big deal. I may be slightly annoyed, but that's about it. If one person simply starts saying 1-100 and back to 100-1 loudly then I will get surely very annoyed. It's not remotely similar to two-person chatting with each other.

Both of them were idiots. The first idiotic act was to chant religious text in the tube and the second was saying that you can't do that due to being a Christian country. The second person could have requested the same without mentioning Christian country. Reading Bible loudly will be also an idiotic thing.

There is no law - That's a poor way to think. We don't do many things even if no law is broken. Counting 1-100 loudly won't break the law. Chanting religious text won't break the law, but it is not the way to behave inside a tube.

Now someone can ask, what about singing. The majority of people don't feel annoyed even if they don't recognize the song or language. Most humans like beats and tunes and have fun listening to them. That's the prime reason we can see many singers. The majority of travelers will be annoyed with religious chants or counting to 1-100. The majority are not likely to be annoyed with songs. If they were then it would have been as rare as chanting religious text.

Anyway, I agree that the best action is to simply move away. I would have done the same rather than trying to argue with a nut case.

Why is it any different, as long as he's not doing it loud?

If someone is chanting the Quran next to me and he's not doing it loudly, why should I be bothered because I neither believe in them nor is it loud enough to bother me. Why would it be any different to two people talking next to me in a foreign language?

I reckon only when people are not firm in their own beliefs would they be bothered by someone chanting a religious verse next to them because they might perceive those religious verses as a threat to their own religious beliefs.

 

[Buffet]

Why is it any different, as long as he's not doing it loud?

If someone is chanting the Quran next to me and he's not doing it loudly, why should I be bothered because I neither believe in them nor is it loud enough to bother me. Why would it be any different to two people talking next to me in a foreign language?

I reckon only when people are not firm in their own beliefs would they be bothered by someone chanting a religious verse next to them because they might perceive those religious verses as a threat to their own religious beliefs.

I won't be annoyed the same way by hearing two people talking just because I can't understand their language. It's like comparing an apple to an orange. Two people talking in different languages is very expected and happens literally 10 times in a day where I live. I have not come across anyone chanting religious text or reading novels that I can hear.

All may be legal, but one is expected civil behavior and another is simply not.

Nothing to do with belief or faith here. No one is going to change their faith or belief because someone is chanting religious text in public transport. Religion is a non-issue, how about someone starts reading a novel loudly sitting next to you? Chanting religious text or reading novels loudly won't be civil behavior. Both can be read without making noise.

I am not even sure if you are arguing for sake of argument by drawing parallel with two people chatting. They are not similar at all.

 

[Buffet]

I viewed a similar altercation once. I was in the waiting room of a medical clinic in Canada. There were many people there waiting for their appointments and it was relatively quiet. All of a sudden the azaan went off on one arab hijabi lady's phone and really loudly. Another lady asked her to turn it off as she did not want to hear it. The muslim lady said 'I don't care' and she did not leave the room with the phone or even turn the phone off or the volume down. Needless to say, the objecting lady and all the other people present were not impressed by the muslim lady who forced them to hear the full azaan loudly in a confined internal space and was also rude. She was not a good ambassador for Islam.

No one expects to hear azaan in a hospital waiting room even with a regular voice. No one expects that someone will start reading a novel that others can hear even if it is in a regular voice. It will annoy anyone. But it will virtually certain that you will hear two people talk in a language which you don't understand in many multicultural countries.

Hardly a comparable situation.

 

[street cricketer]

I won't be annoyed the same way by hearing two people talking just because I can't understand their language. It's like comparing an apple to an orange. Two people talking in different languages is very expected and happens literally 10 times in a day where I live. I have not come across anyone chanting religious text or reading novels that I can hear.

All may be legal, but one is expected civil behavior and another is simply not.

Nothing to do with belief or faith here. No one is going to change their faith or belief because someone is chanting religious text in public transport. Religion is a non-issue, how about someone starts reading a novel loudly sitting next to you? Chanting religious text or reading novels loudly won't be civil behavior. Both can be read without making noise.

I am not even sure if you are arguing for sake of argument by drawing parallel with two people chatting. They are not similar at all.

So the question is about loudness. Let's forget about the chatting example.

My opinion is that the person chanting the verses wasn't loud at all. Definitely not loud enough to cause an emotional outburst. It would be no different to me if someone was revising for his exams in the train on the way to the exam hall, while sitting next to me. Bear in mind that the Saffer was sitting opposite to the person, not even next to him. I fail to see how the loudness was bad enough to cause him an emotional outburst.

 

[Itachi]

I would have said the same if someone had any objection to a hindu chanting the Bhagavad Gita or a Christian chanting the Bible in public transport. As long as they're not loud enough to cause a public nuisance, they're free to do so and stand up for themselves if some racist idiot talks smack at them. The key here is no one in the train had an issue with the guy except one person.

Any 'conflict' that's arising here is due to the intolerance of the ranting person and if you keep being submissive because god forbid there might be repercussions, then there will come one day when a person might feel uncomfortable sitting next to you in a flight because you're coloured or the language you speak or the way you dress, and you'll perhaps give your seat away and get off the flight for fear of causing 'conflict and repercussions'.

If I am putting music in my flat at 10 pm and my neighbor asks to lower the volume.... And upon the request if I do lower the volume, it doesn't mean I am being submissive. It's just reciprocating and respecting the feelings of the other people.

You may become a person who lives isolated socially and exercise every rights in the book regardless if it creates nuisance for others but I choose not to do so.

Generally it goes both ways. If you respect others feelings, the people around you also gets comfortable enough to respect your requests to. It's just a give and take situation.

In a public place, people shouldn't go around treating it like their private home. You may think differently and that's your prerogative but my perspective differs from you in this case.

 

[street cricketer]

If I am putting music in my flat at 10 pm and my neighbor asks to lower the volume.... And upon the request if I do lower the volume, it doesn't mean I am being submissive. It's just reciprocating and respecting the feelings of the other people.

You may become a person who lives isolated socially and exercise every rights in the book regardless if it creates nuisance for others but I choose not to do so.

Generally it goes both ways. If you respect others feelings, the people around you also gets comfortable enough to respect your requests to. It's just a give and take situation.

In a public place, people shouldn't go around treating it like their private home. You may think differently and that's your prerogative but my perspective differs from you in this case.

Well yeah, I do think if the muslim was using speakers to sound the Quranic verses in the train, he would have been definitely at fault.

 

[Itachi]

Well yeah, I do think if the muslim was using speakers to sound the Quranic verses in the train, he would have been definitely at fault.

Nuisance doesn't trigger from the loudness. It more deals with the frequency. Our ears are habituate to listen to natural harmonics and melodies coming from it.

That's why, even if someone is singing in a speaker in subway, as long as he or she is singing good, it won't be a nuisance.

But when someone reads in a flat tone, the monotonous nature will start to annoy. If someone is Whispering near me, it will annoy me too. Because human ears doesn't take these notes as the "pleasent" one.

In the same Arabic language, if someone is singing, rarely people would complain but if someone is reading out a novel (not in a dramatic way) or the verses, it will be nuisance.

 

[Buffet]

So the question is about loudness. Let's forget about the chatting example.

My opinion is that the person chanting the verses wasn't loud at all. Definitely not loud enough to cause an emotional outburst. It would be no different to me if someone was revising for his exams in the train on the way to the exam hall, while sitting next to me. Bear in mind that the Saffer was sitting opposite to the person, not even next to him. I fail to see how the loudness was bad enough to cause him an emotional outburst.

Why in the world will you read a novel which others can hear in a public space like a tube? You simply read it in your mind. You can also read the religious text in your mind. If I can hear very little due to voice being too low then it will not annoy me, but any regular tone reading which I can hear clearly will be annoying.

 

[street cricketer]

Why in the world will you read a novel which others can hear in a public space like a tube? You simply read it in your mind. You can also read the religious text in your mind. If I can hear very little due to voice being too low then it will not annoy me, but any regular tone reading which I can hear clearly will be annoying.

Why do you keep talking about the novel example, I was not using it in my post. Since when did people start reading novels for exams unless they're taking a literature exam.

I was talking about a student reading for any exam that has to do with academics.

 

[street cricketer]

Nuisance doesn't trigger from the loudness. It more deals with the frequency. Our ears are habituate to listen to natural harmonics and melodies coming from it.

That's why, even if someone is singing in a speaker in subway, as long as he or she is singing good, it won't be a nuisance.

But when someone reads in a flat tone, the monotonous nature will start to annoy. If someone is Whispering near me, it will annoy me too. Because human ears doesn't take these notes as the "pleasent" one.

In the same Arabic language, if someone is singing, rarely people would complain but if someone is reading out a novel (not in a dramatic way) or the verses, it will be nuisance.

See here is where we differ. Who I think is a good singer might not be a good singer for you. What you think is pleasant music might not be pleasant music for me. Different people have different tastes.

What would you say to the Hare Krishna troupes singing loudly in trains?

 

[Itachi]

See here is where we differ. Who I think is a good singer might not be a good singer for you. What you think is pleasant music might not be pleasant music for me. Different people have different tastes.

What would you say to the Hare Krishna troupes singing loudly in trains?

Its not about whether I think of someone as good or not. It's about tolerance. I don't like jazz music but I can tolerate it because it follows the same natural harmonics and melodies in the scales that our ears perceive as pleasent. It may not be my taste but it will be within my tolerance range.

You have avoided the crux of my post which deals with sound frequency that are perceived as pleasent by human ears. It doesn't depend upon taste/what music you listen because whether it be classical or rap or pop or hip hop or heavy metal or take any other genre, they follow the same scales and keys.

In ISCKON temple, they also follow the same pattern and stays within the melodies. If you have studied theories of musics, you will realize the first introduction deals with the difference of "music" and "talking".

 

[street cricketer]

Its not about whether I think of someone as good or not. It's about tolerance. I don't like jazz music but I can tolerate it because it follows the same natural harmonics and melodies in the scales that our ears perceive as pleasent. It may not be my taste but it will be within my tolerance range.

You have avoided the crux of my post which deals with sound frequency that are perceived as pleasent by human ears. It doesn't depend upon taste/what music you listen because whether it be classical or rap or pop or hip hop or heavy metal or take any other genre, they follow the same scales and keys.

In ISCKON temple, they also follow the same pattern and stays within the melodies. If you have studied theories of musics, you will realize the first introduction deals with the difference of "music" and "talking".

So you're saying you're okay with this because they're singing hymns:

But not okay with a person chanting his religious verses which is far silent than the Hare Krishna group singing very loudly in the train?

 

[Itachi]

So you're saying you're okay with this because they're singing hymns:

But not okay with a person chanting his religious verses which is far silent than the Hare Krishna group singing very loudly in the train?

Those aren't chants. If you go to ISKCON temple, you will realize how it actually performed. They are also whistling and God knows what. This will create nuisance of course.

Secondly you still didn't grasp what I wrote. It's not about how loud or silent is. It's about the frequency which human ears perceived as pleasant which is in built. You can whisper yet you can be a nuisance but on the other hand, you can be loud yet you can be pleasent. It depends upon what frequency you emit.

 

[Technics 1210]

The issue is about noise not religion being personal or not.

There is no law against talking, hymning, singing or reciting in a public place or on public transport.

I don't use public transport esp in London as its trash. UK's buses, trains, trams etc are a disgrace something out of the 3rd world.

I would suggest you do and others do what I do, buy some headphones when in public.

The clown obviously had an brainwashed Islamophobic mentality.

Singing is not allowed on TfL trains.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/london-underground-tube-illegal-laws-17347875

Certain carriages on underground and overground are also designated as 'Quiet Carriages', where talking isn't allowed.

The guy reciting the Qur'an loudly should be the one getting the headphones if he wants to hear the recitation. In the same way if I want to hear music on the trains I won't use a ghetto blaster or turn on the phone speakers, I use headphones. It's called etiquette.

As for the SA guy, he might be brainwashed, but this case isn't a unique case against Muslims; Christians, Jews, and Hindus also face abuse on TfL.

 

[the Great Khan]

Firstly he clearly says he was reciting softly. I used to read quran on the train softly. Never had an issue.

I was on the tube the other day..had groups of non Muslims screaming and talking loudly..one guy brought his dog on board..filthy animal. Another smelled like he hadn't bathed in years..young women talking loudly about their exploits etc. Another individual had Music on loud via his headphones.

Didn't see anyone react. Everyone just got on with it..but lo and behold a guy recites the Quraan and Ppers start losing their marbles..it actually says alot about the type of posters we have on this forum. For those of you who are Muslim I would simply say if you don't practice sit down and shut up. Sort yourselves out first then start commenting on someone else.

For those of you who are non Muslims well all I will say is I'm advised not to talk about your religion and your practices so please kindly refrain from commenting on mine.

Finally that white guy was a racist piece of ..and if he said that to me I would have been way more harsh than the brother. Clearly has issues and I pity him.

 

[Itachi]

So.... Some muslims believe that they are "better" Muslims than some other Muslims?

Is this concept valid though?

 

[psb07158]

This is as much our country as anyone else's and if we want to read the Qur'an on the train we can read the Qur'an on the train.

People around me don't ask my permission before they go on their mobile phones (when they have reception) or talk loudly to their friends about their night out the past weekend etc etc etc or kiss their partners.

 

[James]

There is always an expected/acceptable level of noise in public. The aggressor here was a massive bigot, I don’t think that can be skirted around. He should be called out for it.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I can be a delicate darling or a snow flake and there may many other person like me. That's why I stated that one should be aware of the environment. You may proceed with what you are doing but there may repercussions leading to a conflict which is natural progress of events here in this case.

These mental gymnastics are pretty hilarious to read

 

[LaLoco]

These mental gymnastics are pretty hilarious to read

Hilarious, have used almost every angle to make "the bigot" appear less bigot.

 

[Local.Dada]

Religion and prayer is so personal, don’t know why people are compelled to make a public display of their faith in public. Especially in foreign countries, there is a thin line between carrying your faith/ culture with dignity and rubbing it in someone’s face almost like a taunt.

Anyway to each his own. That’s only a small pet peeve compared to the bigotry of that racist man.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

So.... Some muslims believe that they are "better" Muslims than some other Muslims?

Is this concept valid though?

That belief makes them worse as only God can judge though that has been used to appease sin

 

[KingKhanWC]

Singing is not allowed on TfL trains.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/london-underground-tube-illegal-laws-17347875

Certain carriages on underground and overground are also designated as 'Quiet Carriages', where talking isn't allowed.

The guy reciting the Qur'an loudly should be the one getting the headphones if he wants to hear the recitation. In the same way if I want to hear music on the trains I won't use a ghetto blaster or turn on the phone speakers, I use headphones. It's called etiquette.

As for the SA guy, he might be brainwashed, but this case isn't a unique case against Muslims; Christians, Jews, and Hindus also face abuse on TfL.

Those dumb laws are not policed.

He wasn't loud.

If you're so upset by some noise, its you who should use headphones or better still pay for a limo and chauffer.

 

[Technics 1210]

Those dumb laws are not policed.

He wasn't loud.

If you're so upset by some noise, its you who should use headphones or better still pay for a limo and chauffer.

By your own admission you do not use public transport in London, thus are ignorant of the etiquette and the rules.

Go play the gallery elsewhere.

 

[KingKhanWC]

By your own admission you do not use public transport in London, thus are ignorant of the etiquette and the rules.

Go play the gallery elsewhere.

etiquette on the underground )

I do not use them now but have done many times in the past.

The underground isn't your Tory politician friends private carriage where everyone is dressed in suits and top hats, sipping teas and whisppering. Its full of all kinds of ordinary people, lower class mostly inc drunks, crackheads, criminals, louts. If you want etiquette use a limo and chauffer.

Your post was Gold, one of the best