Naseem Shah - don't write him off just yet

[Saj]

I have a lot of sympathy for Naseem Shah.

I know a lot of people are already writing him off, but already in his short career he has had to deal with a lot of things, some in his control and some out of his control.

There are things which have happened during his career that he hasn't disclosed and may never disclose, but such is the way with Pakistan cricket.

Some of the things he has already had to deal with include:

3 stress fractures
Problems due to growing pains
His mother passed away
Struggled after contracting Covid-19 in New Zealand

Yes he was picked too early in his career, but that wasn't his fault.

Yes he hasn't delivered what people expected of him, but were expectations realistic?

My concern is that he doesn't become another Mohammad Zahid or Mohammad Sami and falls by the wayside.

Whilst he says he is mentally tough and has the resolve to bounce back, I just hope that he can do it.

 

[ataullah]

I feel he will be back with a bang. His new tweaks to action and run up are improving. The Naseem of New Zealand tour and PSL are quite different. In PSL he was faster and better rhythm. The more he bowls with these new tweaks the better he gets. After a season in domestic he will be ALOT better inshAllah. We just lack patience be it PCB or fans.

 

[Bilal7]

He's being giving all he needs to succeed, I believe. The rest is up to how hard he works and how badly he wants to become a great cricketer. With so many T20 and T10 leagues around, cricketers don't need to break their backs trying to make the international teams. They can take the easy way out and make a lot of money too.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Only the ignorant are writing him off. We have not seen his best yet. He was a different bowler in 2018/19 before he made his debut.

The fact that he is bowling 145 plus despite multiple back injuries and action changes illustrates that he is a natural fast bowler.

He needs proper guidance from a qualified bowling coach.
If he can manage it, Saj, please hook him up with Steffan Jones or any notable Australian or English bowling coach.

He is not sure how to bowl these days because his mind is cluttered with all the advice on his action.

 

[Shazzam]

For me its not about writing him off. Its about actually seeing anything special about him that makes me wanna follow him as a cricketer. So far I saw nothing but hype for the kid. Its to the point where I question where is it coming from? It feels similar to the Azam Khan situation. The dude has hardly done anything that it makes you question the hype.

 

[Titan24]

I personally dont believe in writing off any young player who performs at junior level, domestic cricket and in turn gets enough eyes rolling to play for national team in his teenage or early 20s. Yes if a player doesnt develop and keeps on repeating same mistakes well into his mid 20s then that window of opportunity starts to close pretty fast.

People find it easy to write off players as there would be 95% or even more chance that someone isnt gonna become a great player as very small number of cricketers tend to achieve those heights so if you write off every player you are going to be right more often than not and most fans and experts prefer taking this route until player turns the tide and everyone start flowing with it.

Naseem Shah is a young guy who has seen quite a few ups and downs in his pretty small career so far. He needs to start from the basics and the build from there. Young Pakistani pacers need to understand that just running and bowling fast is not enough, yes it might sound obvious but to me it looks like young pacers often forget that what exactly is the end result they are trying to achieve. End result, target, job of any pacer is to get the wickets for his side without conceding tons of runs and that cant happen if you are unable to ball consistently around the target spot (Based upon conditions and match situation) which is also important for the process of setting up a batsman in test cricket.

We have seen players with much worse starts to turn it around even late in their careers so there is no reason Naseem cant turn it around if he is willing to accept his shortcomings and apply his mind with regards to areas he needs to work on. He has around 3-5 years window to give the initial direction to his career and as said earlier I believe he needs to go back to the basics of bowling. His consistency of bowling in good areas with pace gave him the results at junior level and early domestic level, that is which got eyes rolling and he averaged 19 in QAE 2019 which was the best amongst pacers on surfaces which were pretty tough for pacers. Unfortunately his basics have gone haywire since his hattrick against BD, so needs to start from the beginning and he has time on his side to get his fitness, run up, action, direction to be adjusted focusing on the end result expected of the pacers.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

I have a lot of sympathy for Naseem Shah.

I know a lot of people are already writing him off, but already in his short career he has had to deal with a lot of things, some in his control and some out of his control.

There are things which have happened during his career that he hasn't disclosed and may never disclose, but such is the way with Pakistan cricket.

Some of the things he has already had to deal with include:

3 stress fractures
Problems due to growing pains
His mother passed away
Struggled after contracting Covid-19 in New Zealand

Yes he was picked too early in his career, but that wasn't his fault.

Yes he hasn't delivered what people expected of him, but were expectations realistic?

My concern is that he doesn't become another Mohammad Zahid or Mohammad Sami and falls by the wayside.

Whilst he says he is mentally tough and has the resolve to bounce back, I just hope that he can do it.

Problems due to growing pains?
Can you elaborate on that?

Also, ask him how he feels about his action. Is he confident about it?

 

[Saj]

Problems due to growing pains?
Can you elaborate on that?

Also, ask him how he feels about his action. Is he confident about it?

He's had aches and pains in his legs which have causes him a lot of pain.

Asked him about his action a few times and he's said that he hasn't changed it.

 

[Saj]

If he was struggling in New Zealand due to after-effects of Covid-19 then what was the need to keep him out there and play him.

They should have sent him home.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

He's had aches and pains in his legs which have causes him a lot of pain.

Asked him about his action a few times and he's said that he hasn't changed it.

He is denying it then because he has been told to.

He has had multiple adjustments done. It is very easy to discern that.

 

[Bewal Express]

If his age is close to being genuine, he has plenty of time to comeback. Young bowlers go through these dips in form and confidence but his USP is his pace and if he becomes a 84mph bowler, he is finished as he doesn't have the skill set to pull it off.

 

[Majid Khan]

He’s young and we should be optimistic and hope for the best , as he has shown some glimpses of brilliance in his brief career so far..

But then that also reminds me of a young Mohammed Sami who showed glimpses of brilliance when he first emerged onto the scene in early 2000s that would have convinced you that he would form an awesome duo with Shoaib and the two S’s would carry on the fast bowling legacy of two W’s from a decade earlier.

Unfortunately Sami disappointed time and time again for the rest of his career after the initial brilliance.

Naseem looked like a breath of fresh air on the Pakistani fast bowling scene when he arrived after years of mediocrity , but his disappointing performances since then have made me question my own cricketing sense to think I rated him as special , only to convince myself that I wasn’t mistaken after re-watching some of his initial spells on YouTube.. let’s hope for the best that he doesn’t end up like another Sami.

 

[TeamPak95]

Not that long ago, majority of people had fully given up on Faheem Ashraf. Now, he's a much improved batsman who you can also rely on to hold up one end with his bowling. Now, whether Faheem's resurgence is temporary or not is a whole other topic. Point is, if Faheem can comeback a much better player then so can Naseem Shah. I highly doubt anyone saw Faheem's resurgence coming, so there's no reason to expect that Naseem can't have one as well. People need to take off their Nostradamus glasses and be a bit more open-minded here.

 

[MesonK]

He will be back but I believe he needs to be sent to High Performance Centre and should also play Ist Class.

 

[Hasan123]

I do feel bad for him, but he was hyped to the moon and he honestly doesn’t look anything special right now. I don’t know if he ever will be. But I know for certain he needs to play regular first class cricket if he wants to have a successful test career.

 

[UzmanBeast]

The door isn't closed, he just needs to get a rhythm going and bowl well in FC.

 

[Rana]

The action,

He releases the ball like a faster version of Shahid Afridi. Maybe it’s the flailing left arm...I don’t know I’m no fast bowling expert.

 

[BigShak]

He’ll be back. Expecting him to tear up the FC scene next season.

 

[Rayyman]

He has a Test match hat trick.

On potential he is the best emerging bowler in Pakistan.

Has toured Australia, England and New Zealand.

Yet does not get selected for a Zimbabwe tour where there is a 36 year old pacer and a guy who is yet to debut.

Brainless selection. He will be back inshaAllah.

 

[Suleiman]

People right off Pakistani players faster than other nationalities because Pakistani players are infamous for bursting onto the scene and then disappearing into obscurity more often than players from other countries.

 

[Extra_Cover]

Many people had previously commented on Naseem's original bowling action and I have said that multiple times previously. Naseem had the most side-on action I have ever seen, this was truly new to see and separates him from the crowd. But what it also means is immense strain on lower back and hips possibly causing the stress fractures which he pointed at.

What I saw of Naseem in New Zealand is clearly that he changed his action to become from front-on. The moment he changed his action he was not the same bowler as previously. My hunch is that this advise could have come from Waqar.

If I was Naseem, I would spend very little time with anyone in PCB management at the moment and spend more time with my youth coaches and NPC to bring back the action I lost. Naseem is the superstar only till he can bowl with that side-on action, the moment he changes to front-on approach he is just an average bowler.

 

[Savak]

Needs to perform big in domestic cricket.

 

[pillionrider]

I never really followed his games but only got interested when his name kept getting thrown about to mock superior Indian performers like Bumrah and Ishant. Watched a game vs NZ where some lower order batsman smashed the twinkling lights out of him I even posted a video mocking the same.

But soon after that, there was this video of him talking and for a guy who'd just been savaged, he sounded pretty like he had a strong and stable mind. I hope he wasn't coached for that soundbite.

If he has even 50% of the ability that he was hyped to have, based on the way he talked after that battering, I'd bet he can make it back to international cricket.

 

[Mamoon]

He is done. He was never good enough and was a product of fake hype thanks to PCB’s reducing his age by 3-4 years.

One of the worst bowlers to have ever played for Pakistan. Decent pace but no skill and no bowling intelligence.

He is just another M. Talha.

Yet another Pakistani player with a big mouth but little talent.

 

[ManFan]

He is done. He was never good enough and was a product of fake hype thanks to PCB’s reducing his age by 3-4 years.

One of the worst bowlers to have ever played for Pakistan. Decent pace but no skill and no bowling intelligence.

He is just another M. Talha.

Yet another Pakistani player with a big mouth but little talent.

Your hatred for Naseem is unique. It cuts deeper than any player I have seen you criticize.

His performances have been poor but all this writing off just because of one (slightly overconfident) statement is bizarre and unwarranted.

 

[Sunzi]

I like him and want to board the hypetrain but he's not giving me much to work with, unfortunately.

 

[Usman Chadda]

He needs to focus on his fitness and get his speeds back up. This lad was averaging 87 mph, only to end up bowling 82-83 mph rubbish a year later. He doesnt have the skill to survive on that pace.

He will be back, for certain.

 

[Shafi]

Hopefully he will be back after Waqar's tenure otherwise Waqar will destroy him again by changing his action or run-ups.
Not sure why Mamoon has so much hatred against him even if he is 22-23 (4-5 years more than his real age) still he is very young and can improve unless people claim he is over 32 and no way he can improve.

 

[Varun]

If I was Naseem Shah, the first thing I would do is to come out publicly and tell everyone what my real age is, and who in the PCB voluntarily decided to change it.

With that out of the way, I would strive for a career of honesty, perseverance and hard work and boldly stay out of the way of any T20 leagues lest it damages me for the longer formats for Pakistan.

 

[MenInG]

If I was Naseem Shah, the first thing I would do is to come out publicly and tell everyone what my real age is, and who in the PCB voluntarily decided to change it.

With that out of the way, I would strive for a career of honesty, perseverance and hard work and boldly stay out of the way of any T20 leagues lest it damages me for the longer formats for Pakistan.

Why are people so worried about his age?

 

[Varun]

Why are people so worried about his age?

Because claiming you're 17/18 when you might be 21 is not realistic, and it gives the impression to the world that this player is attempting to fudge the system to grant him some leeway based on his fictitious youth and inexperience.

Nobody wants to see unfair play.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Contrary to what most think here, Naseem has a fair amount of skill. He isn't just a speed reliant bowler.
He has a beautiful wrist, can get it to move both ways and when in rhythm he imparts a lot of back-spin on the ball.
That, along with hyperextension is the reason why we saw so much fizz from him in the first PSL.

The problem with him is that his action is misaligned and he can't impart the force correctly because of it.
[MENTION=131682]Ian Pont[/MENTION] on Twitter shared this analysis on him and it makes sense.



If he can get his body alligned correctly, that is when we will see what his real potential is.
So far we have not even seen half of what he is capable of.

 

[saeedhk]

He is a mediocre bowler with no real sting in his bowling. The only reason why he debuted was because he was hyped up like many before him.

 

[Saj]

He is a mediocre bowler with no real sting in his bowling. The only reason why he debuted was because he was hyped up like many before him.

That doesn't mean he should be written-off though.

He has potential and that potential needs to be nurtured.

That may take some time, but PCB has invested in him and that shouldn't be discarded.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

He’s young and we should be optimistic and hope for the best , as he has shown some glimpses of brilliance in his brief career so far..

But then that also reminds me of a young Mohammed Sami who showed glimpses of brilliance when he first emerged onto the scene in early 2000s that would have convinced you that he would form an awesome duo with Shoaib and the two S’s would carry on the fast bowling legacy of two W’s from a decade earlier.

Unfortunately Sami disappointed time and time again for the rest of his career after the initial brilliance.

Naseem looked like a breath of fresh air on the Pakistani fast bowling scene when he arrived after years of mediocrity , but his disappointing performances since then have made me question my own cricketing sense to think I rated him as special , only to convince myself that I wasn’t mistaken after re-watching some of his initial spells on YouTube.. let’s hope for the best that he doesn’t end up like another Sami.

Another case of too much too soon in Pakistan Cricket. Was thrown into the international scene right after starting his career. After a few good performances, was subjected to increased hype and expectation making him think international cricket is easy. The interviews and press conferences didn't make it any better.

Shaheen on the other hand took to international cricket effortlessly probably due to superior talent, work ethic and having good mentors at home who know the ground realities and ups and downs of international cricket. The way Shaheen has conducted himself has been miles better than what Naseem has done even though there is a gap of just 1 year between their respective debuts.

 

[Savak]

Naseems problems started the moment his run up was tinkered with. Has looked badly out of rhythm since then

 

[Markhor]

Naseems problems started the moment his run up was tinkered with. Has looked badly out of rhythm since then

Naseem keeps saying he hasn't changed anything which I find unbelievable. Even from his 2019 baseline, he looked so short of rhythm in NZ it was like a different bowler.

He needs to spend a lot of time with a qualified technical bowling coach at HPC (if we can hire one after Zahid left), and do the hard yards in QEA Trophy where he learns the art of setting up batsmen.

 

[MenInG]

Shahid Afridi speaking to the press today:

I have said this before and I say it again that I don't understand the criteria behind selection for the Pakistan side as boys who have just done or 2 good performances (are selected)"

"So much investment has been done on Naseem Shah and other bowlers who are no where to be seen as they have been replaced by unknown bowlers"

"Persist with bowlers on whom you have made so much investments, instead you bring in some bowler who had just performed in 1-2 games and then later he is discarded and not to be seen again"

 

[Rayyman]

Shahid Afridi speaking to the press today:

I have said this before and I say it again that I don't understand the criteria behind selection for the Pakistan side as boys who have just done or 2 good performances (are selected)"

"So much investment has been done on Naseem Shah and other bowlers who are no where to be seen as they have been replaced by unknown bowlers"

"Persist with bowlers on whom you have made so much investments, instead you bring in some bowler who had just performed in 1-2 games and then later he is discarded and not to be seen again"

Afridi is bang on here.

Naseem Shah performs in domestic cricket, gets selected. Starts off with a bang, gets injured, gets dropped.

Now he is nowhere to be seen even though he has recovered.

And who is he replaced with? Another guy in Dhani who has played less FC games than Naseem.


A blunder

No wonder Bobby is mad

 

[Firebat]

PakPassion.net: What lessons have been learnt from the selection of Naseem Shah?

Mohammad Wasim: He has had injury problems and that has affected his confidence and his form. The boy has a lot of talent and it takes time to recover from injuries. He has from time to time shown what he is capable of, but the most important thing is for him to get fully fit and firing again. He’s been invited to the camp for the South Africa and Zimbabwe tour so it’s important that he can be around the squad and work with Waqar Younis and the other coaches.

What we all need to look at is why he is getting injured regularly as only then can we involve him in our plans. At the moment we want him to get fit as it wouldn’t have been fair on him to be recalled straight after injury. I would like him to play more First-Class cricket as perhaps he was lacking the benefit of having played much 4-day cricket in the past when he was selected. This way he can improve his fitness and form. But I am sure he will make a strong comeback.

 

[silentkiller187]

The problem is for years we have had rubbish like rahat ali, imran khan jr, selected over and over again. Posters have been shouting for selectors to pick someone outside the box and try something different. Then when they do they get slated for it, this is unfortunately the Pakistani cycle.

Theres no harm in getting young talent into the fold, who knows what you might unearth with a bit of guidance.

 

[hitthestump]

The problem is for years we have had rubbish like rahat ali, imran khan jr, selected over and over again. Posters have been shouting for selectors to pick someone outside the box and try something different. Then when they do they get slated for it, this is unfortunately the Pakistani cycle.

Theres no harm in getting young talent into the fold, who knows what you might unearth with a bit of guidance.

The names you've mentioned have all been picked and discarded very quickly. Pakistan have have gone through more pacers in the last decade than any other nation. There's been plenty of experimentation that's for sure.

Getting players who haven't even played FC into the fold isn't 'out of the box', it is pure gambling. There is plenty of harm in sending bowlers in for phaintas. Remember when Ricky Ponting called Pakistan the worst attack he's ever seen? Poor Musa may never recover from that humiliation.

 

[silentkiller187]

The names you've mentioned have all been picked and discarded very quickly. Pakistan have have gone through more pacers in the last decade than any other nation. There's been plenty of experimentation that's for sure.

Getting players who haven't even played FC into the fold isn't 'out of the box', it is pure gambling. There is plenty of harm in sending bowlers in for phaintas. Remember when Ricky Ponting called Pakistan the worst attack he's ever seen? Poor Musa may never recover from that humiliation.

The fact is our players are not good enough, the standard of our first class system should be no barometer for test selection, id much rather gamble and hope to find a rough diamond then resort to the same players over and over

 

[Firebat]

Waqar Younis:

"Naseem Shah’s future is bright. He’s a very talented fast bowler but unfortunately he got injured and he’s coming back from injury. He was at the camp at the NHPC and he’s working with the coaches there. He’s working on his fitness and his skill-levels. My hopes are that the more domestic cricket he plays he will improve further. We are waiting for him and he will make his comeback soon."

 

[MenInG]

Naseem returns to Pakistan Test squad for the Windies.

Mohammad Wasim :

“Mohammad Abbas has regained his form, Naseem Shah and Haris Sohail have reclaimed the required fitness standards, while Imad Wasim has been recalled considering the T20 World Cup is likely to be held in the UAE and he enjoys an excellent record there.

 

[shamaan]

Naseem has made the squad but he shouldn't have.He won't make the playing xi ahead of Hassan,Abbas and shaheen

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Naseem has made the squad but he shouldn't have.He won't make the playing xi ahead of Hassan,Abbas and shaheen

In a different country, Naseem Shah would’ve been told to play more domestic cricket before being considered for selection. If he really is 17, then he should play FC cricket for at least another 2-3 years before being brought back to the team.

 

[shamaan]

In a different country, Naseem Shah would’ve been told to play more domestic cricket before being considered for selection. If he really is 17, then he should play FC cricket for at least another 2-3 years before being brought back to the team.

Definitely agree pluss it's not like he wasn't given ago.

 

[Kroll]

Definitely agree pluss it's not like he wasn't given ago.

Why was he given a go? On what basis?

 

[shamaan]

Why was he given a go? On what basis?

Based upon raw pace and that we didn't have x factor bowler.

 

[Mamoon]

West Indies’ have a relatively fragile lineup so I don’t think it will be the usual average of 70 at an economy rate of 4 performance by Naseem.

Perhaps we can expect him to average around 40+. A remarkable improvement for a so-called fast bowler who possesses no measurable or noticeable talent or skill.

 

[Kroll]

Based upon raw pace and that we didn't have x factor bowler.

Without any proper performance metrics, that must be one of the stupidest reasons to pick someone for an international side. Plus his pace wasn't anything extraordinary unique - 145 kph, now even slower I believe.

 

[Mamoon]

Ah yes, at the same time he got 3 wickets at 70, your overhyped ‘best bowler in the world’ managed just four wickets... three of which were tailenders. This is at home against a Pakistani batting line up.

I understand that you are at the mercy of your incurable phobia of Archer, but in spite of his struggles in Test cricket post the 2019 Ashes and the possibility that his elbow injury could derail his career, the reality is that even if he retires today, Archer has already achieved a lot more than what a deeply mediocre bowler like Naseem will achieve even if he players for years.

I do not understand the logic behind this contrived comparison between two bowlers who are at completely different levels.

Naseem is nowhere near Archer in terms of talent and skill. No comparison at all. Naseem is a rubbish bowler who has never performed against any quality batting unit and cannot even get into the LOIs team even though Pakistan has only one quality LOI fast bowler at this point.

If a BMW malfunctions, you will inspect its problems in isolation; you will not compare it to an auto-rickshaw.

 

[Forum363]

I understand that you are at the mercy of your incurable phobia of Archer, but in spite of his struggles in Test cricket post the 2019 Ashes and the possibility that his elbow injury could derail his career, the reality is that even if he retires today, Archer has already achieved a lot more than what a deeply mediocre bowler like Naseem will achieve even if he players for years.

I do not understand the logic behind this contrived comparison between two bowlers who are at completely different levels.

Naseem is nowhere near Archer in terms of talent and skill. No comparison at all. Naseem is a rubbish bowler who has never performed against any quality batting unit and cannot even get into the LOIs team even though Pakistan has only one quality LOI fast bowler at this point.

If a BMW malfunctions, you will inspect its problems in isolation; you will not compare it to an auto-rickshaw.

They are two young bowlers who are both making their way in the world. In Test cricket, they have both performed brilliantly at home on a couple of occasions (albeit Archer against a stronger opposition) and have been woefully below par in the others.

On one hand you hype Archer to the moon and consider him the best in the world whereas Naseem is regarded as rubbish and overhyped, despite being younger / not in his prime and clearly at an earlier stage in his developement. Yet their test performances have not been that far apart.

If you buy a bmw and find that under the flashy hood it’s barely better than an old car in performance, ofcourse you’ll compare it to something else on the same level.

At least you’ve toned down your comments now, from calling him the ‘best bowler in the world’ with an effortless action to accepting that his fitness is terrible and he may end his career being slightly better than a kid who played 5/6 test matches. Amazing achievement.

 

[Mamoon]

They are two young bowlers who are both making their way in the world. In Test cricket, they have both performed brilliantly at home on a couple of occasions (albeit Archer against a stronger opposition) and have been woefully below par in the others.

On one hand you hype Archer to the moon and consider him the best in the world whereas Naseem is regarded as rubbish and overhyped, despite being younger / not in his prime and clearly at an earlier stage in his developement. Yet their test performances have not been that far apart.

If you buy a bmw and find that under the flashy hood it’s barely better than an old car in performance, ofcourse you’ll compare it to something else on the same level.

At least you’ve toned down your comments now, from calling him the ‘best bowler in the world’ with an effortless action to accepting that his fitness is terrible and he may end his career being slightly better than a kid who played 5/6 test matches. Amazing achievement.

See, this is the problem.

They are not two young bowlers who are both making their way in the world.

One of them is a young bowler trying to make his way into the world and is badly struggling while attempting to do so, while the other bowler has helped his country win a World Cup.

Archer is probably the only cricket in history who was fast-tracked into international cricket to help his team win a World Cup. ECB had to revise its rules just so that they could force him into the squad.

You would be hard-pressed to find a player who had deal with so much pressure and expectations right from his appearance in international cricket.

He was identified as the strike bowler who would add bite to England’s underwhelming pace battery and help them win the World Cup because doing so with all those Wileys, Topleys, Gurneys, Jordans looked a tall order for England.

The 20 wickets (most by an English bowler) that he took at an average of 22 and an ER of 4.5 (second best in the World Cup after Bumrah) were crucial for England. Without him, they would not have the World Cup.

Moreover, he delivered in the super over in the final - the single most important over in England’s ODI cricket history to date.

Here is another stat - no bowler has ever taken more wickets in a single World Cup for England than Archer’s tally of 20 wickets in 2019.

In comparison, what has Naseem achieved? Absolutely nothing. He cannot even get into the LOIs squads.

If Naseem breaks the record of most wickets for Pakistan in a single World Cup at a world class average and strike rate in a successful World Cup campaign for Pakistan and delivers the World Cup-winning over in the super over in the final, he will forever be immortalized in the history of Pakistan cricket and be remembered as a legend of Pakistan based on that achievement alone.

You fail to understand the significance of what Archer did for England in the 2019 World Cup.

Furthermore, as far as Test cricket is concerned, there is no doubt Archer has struggled since the Ashes, but he took 22 wickets in that Ashes at an average of 20.

Has Naseem ever played a Test series against a top team where has taken a bagful of wickets and returned with an impressive average? No, never.

Unless and until he does not produce a series against a top side like Archer’s Ashes, he cannot be compared to Archer.

Let him take 22 wickets in 5 Tests @20 against England, Australia, India, New Zealand etc. and then I will be happy to entertain this comparison.

As far as Archer’s effortless action is concerned, you need to realize that his elbow injury was due to a freak accident. It had nothing to do with his action.

He had a freak accident with his fish tank at home and the glass penetrated his elbow. He did not get injured while bowling.

 

[Saj]

Selectors have said he's back as he's improved his fitness.

I don't think fitness was the issue, surely there were other bigger issues with his bowling.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

West Indies’ have a relatively fragile lineup so I don’t think it will be the usual average of 70 at an economy rate of 4 performance by Naseem.

Perhaps we can expect him to average around 40+. A remarkable improvement for a so-called fast bowler who possesses no measurable or noticeable talent or skill.

He probably won't play. Abbas, Shaheen and Hassan will be starting.

How do you rate Pakistans chances to win the series in WI with that bowling attack? It's not great but I feel like it can do damage to a poor WI batting lineup, especially with a Dukes ball.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

West Indies’ have a relatively fragile lineup so I don’t think it will be the usual average of 70 at an economy rate of 4 performance by Naseem.

Perhaps we can expect him to average around 40+. A remarkable improvement for a so-called fast bowler who possesses no measurable or noticeable talent or skill.

Sheer pace in itself is an attribute. Not enough by itself to make you a successful bowler, but that is what is keeping him in the selection pool.

 

[Mamoon]

He probably won't play. Abbas, Shaheen and Hassan will be starting.

How do you rate Pakistans chances to win the series in WI with that bowling attack? It's not great but I feel like it can do damage to a poor WI batting lineup, especially with a Dukes ball.

West Indies will have to play minnow-level cricket to lose to Pakistan at home without facing Yasir Shah.

They are of course capable of producing a minnow-level performance, but I think that their fast bowling is more than good enough to rattle Pakistan.

I would go for either a West Indies win or a draw.

 

[Mamoon]

Sheer pace in itself is an attribute. Not enough by itself to make you a successful bowler, but that is what is keeping him in the selection pool.

He was trundling over his last two series, but even in 2019 when he was being hyped to the moon, he was hardly a speed demon. I don’t remember him clocking 95+ like Starc, Archer, Wood, Ferguson etc.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

He was trundling over his last two series, but even in 2019 when he was being hyped to the moon, he was hardly a speed demon. I don’t remember him clocking 95+ like Starc, Archer, Wood, Ferguson etc.

Not many bowlers clock 95+ like those bowlers though, so that is an unreasonable benchmark. If you are around 90kph then you are a fast bowler. Not necessarily a good fast bowler, but that's still genuine pace.

 

[Mamoon]

Not many bowlers clock 95+ like those bowlers though, so that is an unreasonable benchmark. If you are around 90kph then you are a fast bowler. Not necessarily a good fast bowler, but that's still genuine pace.

If you are bowling 90 mph but lack skill and intelligence, you will not run through top teams.

Naseem’s quickest spells were in Australia, and he only had 1 wicket to show for.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you are bowling 90 mph but lack skill and intelligence, you will not run through top teams.

Naseem’s quickest spells were in Australia, and he only had 1 wicket to show for.

I agree, I was just questioning your claim that he has no noticeable skill or talent. Clearly he has pace which is notable in itself.

 

[Varun]

I agree, I was just questioning your claim that he has no noticeable skill or talent. Clearly he has pace which is notable in itself.

If he clocked those speeds only in Australia and nowhere else it once again speaks a lot more about Australian speed guns than anything about his genuine pace.

 

[MenInG]

Selectors have said he's back as he's improved his fitness.

I don't think fitness was the issue, surely there were other bigger issues with his bowling.

The main question is what work has been done with him in the NHPC?

 

[Saj]

The main question is what work has been done with him in the NHPC?

We'll soon find out at the PSL.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, I'd rather he didn't play at this PSL in Abu Dhabi and instead worked on his bowling at the NHPC.

 

[Yasir_ch]

If he clocked those speeds only in Australia and nowhere else it once again speaks a lot more about Australian speed guns than anything about his genuine pace.

In previous PSL he bowled the most 145 kph plus deliveries.He is still the fastest pacer in Asia in tests.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Naseem will be the next Umar Akmal in bowling.
Hyped, brought back with fans oohing and aahing on his talent, and then go back to domestics again and then struggle in International against quality teams. Rinse and repeat and when he is 30 year old.. discarded completely.
This is the natural cycle. Bitter truth.

 

[shamaan]

Without any proper performance metrics, that must be one of the stupidest reasons to pick someone for an international side. Plus his pace wasn't anything extraordinary unique - 145 kph, now even slower I believe.

145 kph is quite decent i think he would be in the top 6 in test match interms of speed.sometimes it works without performance sometimes it doesn't but only in Pakistan that they would be given ago.

 

[Saj]

A couple of wickets in today's warm up victory over Multan Sultans - Rillee Rossouw and Johnson Charles.

 

[Forum363]

See, this is the problem.

They are not two young bowlers who are both making their way in the world.

One of them is a young bowler trying to make his way into the world and is badly struggling while attempting to do so, while the other bowler has helped his country win a World Cup.

Archer is probably the only cricket in history who was fast-tracked into international cricket to help his team win a World Cup. ECB had to revise its rules just so that they could force him into the squad.

You would be hard-pressed to find a player who had deal with so much pressure and expectations right from his appearance in international cricket.

He was identified as the strike bowler who would add bite to England’s underwhelming pace battery and help them win the World Cup because doing so with all those Wileys, Topleys, Gurneys, Jordans looked a tall order for England.

The 20 wickets (most by an English bowler) that he took at an average of 22 and an ER of 4.5 (second best in the World Cup after Bumrah) were crucial for England. Without him, they would not have the World Cup.

Moreover, he delivered in the super over in the final - the single most important over in England’s ODI cricket history to date.

Here is another stat - no bowler has ever taken more wickets in a single World Cup for England than Archer’s tally of 20 wickets in 2019.

In comparison, what has Naseem achieved? Absolutely nothing. He cannot even get into the LOIs squads.

If Naseem breaks the record of most wickets for Pakistan in a single World Cup at a world class average and strike rate in a successful World Cup campaign for Pakistan and delivers the World Cup-winning over in the super over in the final, he will forever be immortalized in the history of Pakistan cricket and be remembered as a legend of Pakistan based on that achievement alone.

You fail to understand the significance of what Archer did for England in the 2019 World Cup.

Furthermore, as far as Test cricket is concerned, there is no doubt Archer has struggled since the Ashes, but he took 22 wickets in that Ashes at an average of 20.

Has Naseem ever played a Test series against a top team where has taken a bagful of wickets and returned with an impressive average? No, never.

Unless and until he does not produce a series against a top side like Archer’s Ashes, he cannot be compared to Archer.

Let him take 22 wickets in 5 Tests @20 against England, Australia, India, New Zealand etc. and then I will be happy to entertain this comparison.

As far as Archer’s effortless action is concerned, you need to realize that his elbow injury was due to a freak accident. It had nothing to do with his action.

He had a freak accident with his fish tank at home and the glass penetrated his elbow. He did not get injured while bowling.

Sorry for the late reply, wanted to do so properly.

Archer absolutely helped England to win the world cup, and it was a brilliant performance but it was not like he singlehandedly took them to the trophy. The only player who could claim to have done that is Stokes, archer isn't even close.

I disagree that England would not have won without him however as Wood also bowled brilliantly and took 18 wickets in one less match. Ferguson who is not much more experienced or older bowled better too, as did the experienced Starc and Bumrah. Heck even Shaheen was phenomenal and had the idiotic management played him from the beginning of the tournament he would have outbowled Archer. Yet none of their teams won the World Cup, but England's did. Why? Not because of Archer but because of Stokes, Root, Bairstow, Roy, Morgan. That was the difference.

As for his super over, he failed to defend the target against the likes of an out of form Guptil and Neesham. The only reason England won, again, was not to do with his brilliance. He almost lost it had it not been for an arbitrary rule.

I've addressed the other point many times. ECB's policy change has no bearing on Archer's performance. I don't care how he got selected, once he's in the 11 he needs to perform like everyone else.

But agreed - he was brilliant in the World Cup. Just like Hassan Ali was in the Champions trophy. Just lime Starc was in multiple world cups. Yet performance in one tournament alone does not make you the best player in the world.

Naseem has not been given a chance for ODIs so you cannot compare them on this basis.

As for Tests - rather than looking at stats, perhaps you should look at the impact on the series. Despite those 22 wickets, he only performed brilliantly in maybe 2 innings. In the third test he took 8 wickets, but 5 of those were tailenders. Stokes kept England in the series. And when the crucial first innings of the next test happened - his hyped duel against Smith who was supposedly scared after being concussed by mighty Archer - well he was smashed for a hundred runs, couldn't take a wicket and basically lost England the Ashes. After this, at least you have accepted he was completely rubbish in Test cricket. So one decent series does not make him the best in the world.

In comparison, Naseem had to debut in one of the toughest places in the world, after the passing of his mother, and when he was able to play at home, he blew the opposition away and took a hat trick. Yes it was a weaker team but it showed his potential. When they both played in the series together, Archer had a huge advantage as he was bowling at home and to a MUCH weaker lineup yet they were equally rubbish.

Archer's fish tank idiocy is not the reason for this recurring elbow problem. The fish tank caused a problem with his hand which he had surgery for later. The elbow is a recurring issue he keeps having. He is one of the most unfit 'express' bowlers in world cricket. He is considerably slower than the likes of Starc, Ferguson, Wood etc and still spends more time injured.

For out and out Pace, Naseem was faster in the series they played together.

So overall - Yes Archer bowled well in the World Cup, but to suggest that puts him in a different league despite doing nothing in the following two years, is laughable.

 

[Mahee]

Naseem shah's bowling action looks similar to Shane Bond's

 

[Mamoon]

Sorry for the late reply, wanted to do so properly.

Archer absolutely helped England to win the world cup, and it was a brilliant performance but it was not like he singlehandedly took them to the trophy. The only player who could claim to have done that is Stokes, archer isn't even close.

I disagree that England would not have won without him however as Wood also bowled brilliantly and took 18 wickets in one less match. Ferguson who is not much more experienced or older bowled better too, as did the experienced Starc and Bumrah. Heck even Shaheen was phenomenal and had the idiotic management played him from the beginning of the tournament he would have outbowled Archer. Yet none of their teams won the World Cup, but England's did. Why? Not because of Archer but because of Stokes, Root, Bairstow, Roy, Morgan. That was the difference.

As for his super over, he failed to defend the target against the likes of an out of form Guptil and Neesham. The only reason England won, again, was not to do with his brilliance. He almost lost it had it not been for an arbitrary rule.

I've addressed the other point many times. ECB's policy change has no bearing on Archer's performance. I don't care how he got selected, once he's in the 11 he needs to perform like everyone else.

But agreed - he was brilliant in the World Cup. Just like Hassan Ali was in the Champions trophy. Just lime Starc was in multiple world cups. Yet performance in one tournament alone does not make you the best player in the world.

Naseem has not been given a chance for ODIs so you cannot compare them on this basis.

As for Tests - rather than looking at stats, perhaps you should look at the impact on the series. Despite those 22 wickets, he only performed brilliantly in maybe 2 innings. In the third test he took 8 wickets, but 5 of those were tailenders. Stokes kept England in the series. And when the crucial first innings of the next test happened - his hyped duel against Smith who was supposedly scared after being concussed by mighty Archer - well he was smashed for a hundred runs, couldn't take a wicket and basically lost England the Ashes. After this, at least you have accepted he was completely rubbish in Test cricket. So one decent series does not make him the best in the world.

In comparison, Naseem had to debut in one of the toughest places in the world, after the passing of his mother, and when he was able to play at home, he blew the opposition away and took a hat trick. Yes it was a weaker team but it showed his potential. When they both played in the series together, Archer had a huge advantage as he was bowling at home and to a MUCH weaker lineup yet they were equally rubbish.

Archer's fish tank idiocy is not the reason for this recurring elbow problem. The fish tank caused a problem with his hand which he had surgery for later. The elbow is a recurring issue he keeps having. He is one of the most unfit 'express' bowlers in world cricket. He is considerably slower than the likes of Starc, Ferguson, Wood etc and still spends more time injured.

For out and out Pace, Naseem was faster in the series they played together.

So overall - Yes Archer bowled well in the World Cup, but to suggest that puts him in a different league despite doing nothing in the following two years, is laughable.

The only laughable thing is suggesting that Archer and Naseem are not in a different league based on their achievements and performances so far. You have an excuse for every successful performance of Archer and every failure of Naseem’s.

Once again - you simply cannot compare two bowlers when one of them has helped his team win the World Cup with 20 wickets while the other has not even played LOIs for his country.

Moreover, one of them has 22 wickets in an Ashes series while the other has been a disaster every single time he has played against a top side.

If Archer’s performance in Ashes was impact-less, what would you call Naseem’s performance in Australia, England and New Zealand? He was worse than a part-timer.

Archer has one top series against a top team; Naseem has zero.

Again, there is no comparison between the two unless Naseem produces a big series against a top team. Taking 22 wickets in 5 Tests against a top team will be a great start, regardless of how impactful it proves to be.

However, at this point, it appears that he is not even good enough to take a bunch of impact-less wickets against top sides, that is how awful his bowling is.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and a young English bowler with no LOI appearances and a truly embarrassing record against the top sides in Tests would be compared to a Pakistani bowler who helped Pakistan win the World Cup with 20 wickets and also took 22 wickets in a Test series against India, you would be laughing at such a comparison.

How Archer fares against other world class bowlers in the world is a completely different argument from the nonsensical comparison between Archer and Naseem.

If you think Archer is not worthy of being compared to Cummins, Bumrah, Starc, Rabada etc., that is fair enough. It is not a viewpoint that I share, but it is obviously an argument that has some credibility.

However, you simply cannot be taken seriously if you are actually arguing that Archer and Naseem are at the same level and worthy of a comparison.

Irrespective of what happens to Archer from this point onwards, you simply cannot ignore what he achieved in his first year of international cricket.

Unless Naseem produces similar performances, he is not even worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence, because Naseem has literally achieved nothing in his career so far.

 

[Forum363]

The only laughable thing is suggesting that Archer and Naseem are not in a different league based on their achievements and performances so far. You have an excuse for every successful performance of Archer and every failure of Naseem’s.

Once again - you simply cannot compare two bowlers when one of them has helped his team win the World Cup with 20 wickets while the other has not even played LOIs for his country.

Moreover, one of them has 22 wickets in an Ashes series while the other has been a disaster every single time he has played against a top side.

If Archer’s performance in Ashes was impact-less, what would you call Naseem’s performance in Australia, England and New Zealand? He was worse than a part-timer.

Archer has one top series against a top team; Naseem has zero.

Again, there is no comparison between the two unless Naseem produces a big series against a top team. Taking 22 wickets in 5 Tests against a top team will be a great start, regardless of how impactful it proves to be.

However, at this point, it appears that he is not even good enough to take a bunch of impact-less wickets against top sides, that is how awful his bowling is.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and a young English bowler with no LOI appearances and a truly embarrassing record against the top sides in Tests would be compared to a Pakistani bowler who helped Pakistan win the World Cup with 20 wickets and also took 22 wickets in a Test series against India, you would be laughing at such a comparison.

How Archer fares against other world class bowlers in the world is a completely different argument from the nonsensical comparison between Archer and Naseem.

If you think Archer is not worthy of being compared to Cummins, Bumrah, Starc, Rabada etc., that is fair enough. It is not a viewpoint that I share, but it is obviously an argument that has some credibility.

However, you simply cannot be taken seriously if you are actually arguing that Archer and Naseem are at the same level and worthy of a comparison.

Irrespective of what happens to Archer from this point onwards, you simply cannot ignore what he achieved in his first year of international cricket.

Unless Naseem produces similar performances, he is not even worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence, because Naseem has literally achieved nothing in his career so far.

Archer has been rubbish away from home. Naseem has been rubbish away from home. Archer has had a couple of brilliant performances at home. Naseem has had a couple of brilliant performances at home. The only difference between the two then comes down to the fact that Archer did it against a better team.

When you consider that Archer had the benefit of playing in a better team, with ATG bowlers at the other end, coming out of a robust county system with access to the best coaches for many years, then the gap between them becomes even more narrowed. Not to mention, whatever his age is, Naseem is at least 4 years younger, so earlier in his development for his year of international cricket then the comparison becomes even more apt.

In terms of his ODI exploits, Naseem hasn’t played so you can’t compare. Archer had one amazing tournament.

But as two young players making their way in international cricket, the gap is not as wide as the hype created by you and the English media simply because he plays for England.

Many players start with a bang. Mendis, Mustafizur etc. Heck even Fakhar was phenomenal in his first year, playing match winning innings across every format around the world against the top teams. Yet you rightly did not compare him to the likes of Rohit/ Roy etc.

 

[shaz619]

Archer has been rubbish away from home. Naseem has been rubbish away from home. Archer has had a couple of brilliant performances at home. Naseem has had a couple of brilliant performances at home. The only difference between the two then comes down to the fact that Archer did it against a better team.

When you consider that Archer had the benefit of playing in a better team, with ATG bowlers at the other end, coming out of a robust county system with access to the best coaches for many years, then the gap between them becomes even more narrowed. Not to mention, whatever his age is, Naseem is at least 4 years younger, so earlier in his development for his year of international cricket then the comparison becomes even more apt.

In terms of his ODI exploits, Naseem hasn’t played so you can’t compare. Archer had one amazing tournament.

But as two young players making their way in international cricket, the gap is not as wide as the hype created by you and the English media simply because he plays for England.

Many players start with a bang. Mendis, Mustafizur etc. Heck even Fakhar was phenomenal in his first year, playing match winning innings across every format around the world against the top teams. Yet you rightly did not compare him to the likes of Rohit/ Roy etc.

One amazing tournament ? it’s the World Cup and that too exploits which led to a World Cup Win; to this day folk still talk about Inzi’s knock in the 92 semi-final, he could have had a mediocre career after that in ODI’s but his legacy was ensured especially on a national scale. What Archer achieved is the stuff of dreams, he could retire tomorrow and have a lot to be proud about.

Naseem is no where close at this point and unproven, it also seems Pakistan have rushed him back, I don’t know if they create terminators in the NCA and that too in a short period, there is no system which is robust enough to execute a fast turn around like that, even by English standards.

 

[Forum363]

One amazing tournament ? it’s the friggin World Cup and that too exploits which led to a World Cup Win; to this day folk still talk about Inzi’s knock in the 92 semi-final, he could have had a mediocre career after that in ODI’s but his legacy was ensured especially on a national scale. What Archer achieved is the stuff of dreams, he could retire tomorrow and have a lot to be proud about.

Naseem is no where close at this point and unproven, it also seems Pakistan have rushed him back, I don’t know if they create terminators in the NCA and that too in a short period, there is no system which is robust enough to execute a fast turn around like that, even by English standards.

It is a World Cup and he performed brilliantly, but it was a team effort. Inzi singlehandedly kept us alive in that tournament and then went on to be an ATG player. Archers performance was not like say Starc’s in world cups nor was he the most important English player for their victory. So stop making it out like he’s done everything in his career just because he got 20 wickets in 11 matches and was lucky to be part of a strong team. Ferguson outperformed him and had it not been for dodgy umpiring and a boundary, archer wouldn’t have been on the winning side.

Naseem had unbelievable raw talent and ability. His bowling in that warm up match in Australia impressed everyone and had it been an easier debut / not affected by personal tragedy, perhaps his career would have started off differently. He showed that in his first series at home which was in more familiar conditions then the flag hostile decks of Australia. Yes the opposition was weak but it showed that he certainly has potential, like archer did.

And despite being shorter/ less genetically gifted, he is even quicker than Archer.

 

[shamaan]

The comparison should be between shaheen and Archer and not archer and naseem.

 

[MenInG]

19 runs off Naseem's over - bit unlucky to be thrust into the game like that but then that is how people take their chances and show the world what they are capable of.

 

[Savak]

Mohd Wasim has incorrectly selected him for the future Pakistani tours. The guy should have been made to toil in domestic cricket to earn his place back

 

[King_Kohli]

Poor boy getting tonked.