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'Naseem Shah is too short, he won't make it'

majiz

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'If you're under 6ft you won't make it as a fast-bowler'
When and from where did this meme (I call it that becauses thats what it is) begin exactly?

Dale Steyn and Malcolm Marshall are unquestionably the two most effective and versatile fast bowlers of all-time and are both around 5 ft 10. They should be the first two names down on any all-time XI doubt either one of them is above 180cm. Waqar, who I rate above Wasim, was short too.

The historical evidence seems to suggest the complete opposite of what is held true. Shorter men seem to trouble the stumps more and are effective everywhere, whereas taller men I would argue become floaty and the ball holds up in the air on flatter decks.

Please tell me, where did this idea that quick bowling is a 'taller man's game' come from?
 
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Fred Truman was around 5’10”, RR Lindwall probably shorter. Even DK Lille, the most lethal fast bowler on Australian condition was just about 6 feet tall. Height definitely is an added advantage, but it’s not the end of world - what it matters most is the skill set (included pace) & intelligence of the bowler. Obviously, there has to be a minimum requirement; but it’s silly to disregard any pacer (or hype) just based on height - I can safely say that, a player of Asad or our Mushi’s height won’t make it as a fast bowler; similarly a 6’6” fast bowler with same skill set will definitely be more potent than someone 5’8”, but key is skill set first.

Naseem can’t grow any further, that was not in his hand, but what he can do is fine tune his action for better stress management which should increase his durability, improve fitness & flexibility, may be add a little more pace, increase average speed over a day through better conditioning and most importantly - study the game/batsmen, listen more than talking and follow instructions from qualified mentor (s), do that he keeps improving. One of the reasons, in recent days most PAK youngsters are coming with max 3-5 shelf life because he stop developing after initial spark ..... and start talking more than listening after the stardom.
 
I think when players are in their 30s, they generally don't have that pace and often struggle to pitch it up on right areas if they don't have the height. So,maybe why this argument comes up.

In Naseem's case, the question is how Pakistan cricket setup take forward his development because their pace bowling development results haven't been encouraging enough in the last 15 years.
 
If Courtney Walsh / Ambrose / McGrath were 5ft 10 or less - they wud have ended up as mediocre test bowlers with their skill set

If Naseem Shah bowls accurately at 135 kph but without prodigious swing / seam he will struggle to pick wickets unlike say Walsh & McGrath who continued to pick wickets till late 30s

In short a 5ft 10in guy needs to keep bowling very fast & accurate likr Waqar in early 90s or swing / seam like Steyn / Marshall to be good test bowler. A 6ft 6in guy can flourish even at fast medium pace & less swing / seam

Can Naseen bowl as fast & accurate as Waqar / Bond or swing like Steyn / Marshall. If not he will never really become a world class strike bowler bcoz of his hieght
 
Ridiculous argument , so according to you
Mohammed irfan should of been the greatest ever
 
Everyone's looking at hasan ali and Mohammed sami and extrapolating

Naseem shah probably won't go down as an all time great, that is mostly like to be shaheen shah but if he is managed properly he could be as good as Darren gough or lasith malinga
 
Only time will tell, but the kid has a lot of skill, has pace and has that hunger to succeed.

He has the ingredients for a long and rewarding career and I don't think his height will be a problem.

But I worry about Pakistani pacers, as too many disappear too quickly after high hopes.
 
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Only time will tell, but the kid has a lot of skill, has pace and has that hunger to succeed.

He has the ingredients for a long and rewarding career and I don't think his height will be a problem.

But I worry about Pakistani pacers, as too many disappear too quickly after high hopes.

Saj to be honest am more worried about talented batsman, atleast we have seen our pace bowlers become elite, can not say the same about our batsman
 
Saj to be honest am more worried about talented batsman, atleast we have seen our pace bowlers become elite, can not say the same about our batsman

Fair point.

It's been a problem for quite a few years and I don't really see things changing very quickly.
 
His record in test cricket is very mediocre

He blew up on the scene his first year, no one you could deny he was extremely talented and would rip through batting line ups. His time in prison changed him, his height isn't too blame. Tbf he is taller than Nasim Shah .
 
Saj to be honest am more worried about talented batsman, atleast we have seen our pace bowlers become elite, can not say the same about our batsman

Our pace bowling is rubbish, its an affront to our bowling legacy, who do you categorise as elite?
 
Only time will tell, but the kid has a lot of skill, has pace and has that hunger to succeed.

He has the ingredients for a long and rewarding career and I don't think his height will be a problem.

But I worry about Pakistani pacers, as too many disappear too quickly after high hopes.

i don't believe being under 6ft holds back any fast bowler.
 
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'If you're under 6ft you won't make it as a fast-bowler'
When and from where did this meme (I call it that becauses thats what it is) begin exactly?

Dale Steyn and Malcolm Marshall are unquestionably the two most effective and versatile fast bowlers of all-time and are both around 5 ft 10. They should be the first two names down on any all-time XI doubt either one of them is above 180cm. Waqar, who I rate above Wasim, was short too.

The historical evidence seems to suggest the complete opposite of what is held true. Shorter men seem to trouble the stumps more and are effective everywhere, whereas taller men I would argue become floaty and the ball holds up in the air on flatter decks.

Please tell me, where did this idea that quick bowling is a 'taller man's game' come from?
There are two main sides to this: FACTS and REASONS.

I am 50 years old. I have been watching Test cricket since 1975, And here are the FACTS:

FACTS
1. In 45 years of watching Test cricket, I have seen 3 fast bowlers shorter than 6 feet tall make successful careers.

2. Those three bowlers had the following heights:
Malcolm Marshall 5'11
Ryan Harris 5'11
Dale Steyn 5'10 - and he became ineffective when his median pace fell under 143K.

3. There are no bowlers shorter than 5'10 in that list. There is nobody who is 5'9 whatsoever, let alone 5'8 1/2 like Naseem Shah. (I stood next to Naseem Shah at the hotel in Adelaide, although I couldn't communicate with him. He's a little under 5'9.)

4. The same is true of football goalkeepers. In my lifetime two goalies shorter than 6'0 have had a top career: France's Fabien Barthez and Ipswich Town's Paul Cooper, both of whom - like Marshall and Harris - are 5'11 tall.

5. It is therefore a fact that anyone arguing that a fast bowler or goalkeeper shorter than 5'10 can play at the highest level in the modern game is making it up.

They are creating an argument based on what they would like to be the case rather than on FACTS. The evidence that you can be a top goalie or Test fast bowler if you are less than 5'10 tall is precisely the same as the evidence that you can be a top goalie or fast bowler if you are female, or have one leg, or are a gerbil.

6. Sadly there is increasing evidence - much of it from Pakistan - that the shorter you are the more you will struggle. Mohammad Amir has the same skills and pace as Wasim Akram. But he is 5'11 1/2 compared with 6'3.

REASONS
The OP talks about hitting the stumps. And unwittingly he has hit on the reason.

Compare Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis in the West Indies in 1992-93. Waqar was more destructive and faster, and took more wickets. But Pakistan, as always, could only compete if it was a low-scoring series.

Any fast bowler in Tests needs to do the same job - get 5 balls per over aimed at the top of off-stump. But as the grass died and the bounce dulled, Waqar had to bowl 6 inches fuller than Wasim to hit the top of off-stump. If Wasim pitched up to three inches too short or too full or too wide the batsman still couldn't play an attacking stroke because his length was still stifling. But when Waqar pitched the ball one inch too wide or too full or too short he either bowled a half-volley which was driven to the boundary or a long-hop which was cut or pulled. And Brian Lara and Desmond Haynes could and did take the first two Tests away from Pakistan in less than a session of batting.

Test cricket is a really hard game for fast bowlers after the ball goes soft and loses its shine. That means overs 20-80 with a Kookaburra and 40-80 with a Dukes ball.

And only two solutions have been found in my lifetime. Either tamper with the old ball to make it reverse, or pack your team with giants to keep the scoring rate down.

Think back to the First Test in Brisbane last November. Not when Pakistan was bowling, but when they were batting.

On Day 1 Pakistan reached around 65-0 at lunch. But Australia nowadays prefer an attack of Starc (6'6), Hazlewood (6'5) and Cummins (6'4). Justin Langer explicitly acknowledges that Pattinson (6'1) is more skilful but is only a reserve because he is shorter and cannot dry up the scoring rate the same way.

Pakistan reached 75-0 after 37 overs, but Australia after lunch had gone into "giant quicks drying up the scoring rate" mode and couldn't buy a run. Azhar Ali had looked fairly sound against full-pitched attacking bowling, but once the quicks shortened their length by another 2 inches after lunch he was suddenly reduced to edging and playing and missing because at his age he couldn't judge whether to go forward or back.

Pakistan lost 4 wickets in the next 10 overs, but they also only scored 11 runs.

I don't know where I stand on Naseem Shah. He has the finest bowling action of any Pakistani that I have ever seen - better than Wasim Akram, better than Imran Khan. It's just mesmerising.

But as I stated earlier, only 3 quicks in my 50 years have made it at a height shorter than 6'0. And none of them were as short as Naseem Shah.

Shaheen Shah Afridi has a fraction of Naseem Shah's skill. But even on an off-day - and we all have them - he will still be 6'6 tall and trouble every batsman. Shaheen can bowl a spell at 135K and still challenge the batsman. Naseem can't.

Naseem Shah is almost 10 inches shorter and he will never be able to survive on a bad day like Shaheen or Hazlewood or Cummins by relying on bowling a difficult length even when he's a bit out of sorts. He's going to have to be at his best every single day, every single spell. And whereas McGrath and Wasim and Hazlewood and Cummins can endure after their pace falls from 144K to 134K because their height remains the same, Naseem will be like Dale Steyn, reliant on maintaining his pace well into the 140's to keep troubling the batsmen.
 
There are two main sides to this: FACTS and REASONS.

I am 50 years old. I have been watching Test cricket since 1975, And here are the FACTS:

FACTS
1. In 45 years of watching Test cricket, I have seen 3 fast bowlers shorter than 6 feet tall make successful careers.

2. Those three bowlers had the following heights:
Malcolm Marshall 5'11
Ryan Harris 5'11
Dale Steyn 5'10 - and he became ineffective when his median pace fell under 143K.

3. There are no bowlers shorter than 5'10 in that list. There is nobody who is 5'9 whatsoever, let alone 5'8 1/2 like Naseem Shah. (I stood next to Naseem Shah at the hotel in Adelaide, although I couldn't communicate with him. He's a little under 5'9.)

4. The same is true of football goalkeepers. In my lifetime two goalies shorter than 6'0 have had a top career: France's Fabien Barthez and Ipswich Town's Paul Cooper, both of whom - like Marshall and Harris - are 5'11 tall.

5. It is therefore a fact that anyone arguing that a fast bowler or goalkeeper shorter than 5'10 can play at the highest level in the modern game is making it up.

They are creating an argument based on what they would like to be the case rather than on FACTS. The evidence that you can be a top goalie or Test fast bowler if you are less than 5'10 tall is precisely the same as the evidence that you can be a top goalie or fast bowler if you are female, or have one leg, or are a gerbil.

6. Sadly there is increasing evidence - much of it from Pakistan - that the shorter you are the more you will struggle. Mohammad Amir has the same skills and pace as Wasim Akram. But he is 5'11 1/2 compared with 6'3.

REASONS
The OP talks about hitting the stumps. And unwittingly he has hit on the reason.

Compare Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis in the West Indies in 1992-93. Waqar was more destructive and faster, and took more wickets. But Pakistan, as always, could only compete if it was a low-scoring series.

Any fast bowler in Tests needs to do the same job - get 5 balls per over aimed at the top of off-stump. But as the grass died and the bounce dulled, Waqar had to bowl 6 inches fuller than Wasim to hit the top of off-stump. If Wasim pitched up to three inches too short or too full or too wide the batsman still couldn't play an attacking stroke because his length was still stifling. But when Waqar pitched the ball one inch too wide or too full or too short he either bowled a half-volley which was driven to the boundary or a long-hop which was cut or pulled. And Brian Lara and Desmond Haynes could and did take the first two Tests away from Pakistan in less than a session of batting.

Test cricket is a really hard game for fast bowlers after the ball goes soft and loses its shine. That means overs 20-80 with a Kookaburra and 40-80 with a Dukes ball.

And only two solutions have been found in my lifetime. Either tamper with the old ball to make it reverse, or pack your team with giants to keep the scoring rate down.

Think back to the First Test in Brisbane last November. Not when Pakistan was bowling, but when they were batting.

On Day 1 Pakistan reached around 65-0 at lunch. But Australia nowadays prefer an attack of Starc (6'6), Hazlewood (6'5) and Cummins (6'4). Justin Langer explicitly acknowledges that Pattinson (6'1) is more skilful but is only a reserve because he is shorter and cannot dry up the scoring rate the same way.

Pakistan reached 75-0 after 37 overs, but Australia after lunch had gone into "giant quicks drying up the scoring rate" mode and couldn't buy a run. Azhar Ali had looked fairly sound against full-pitched attacking bowling, but once the quicks shortened their length by another 2 inches after lunch he was suddenly reduced to edging and playing and missing because at his age he couldn't judge whether to go forward or back.

Pakistan lost 4 wickets in the next 10 overs, but they also only scored 11 runs.

I don't know where I stand on Naseem Shah. He has the finest bowling action of any Pakistani that I have ever seen - better than Wasim Akram, better than Imran Khan. It's just mesmerising.

But as I stated earlier, only 3 quicks in my 50 years have made it at a height shorter than 6'0. And none of them were as short as Naseem Shah.

Shaheen Shah Afridi has a fraction of Naseem Shah's skill. But even on an off-day - and we all have them - he will still be 6'6 tall and trouble every batsman. Shaheen can bowl a spell at 135K and still challenge the batsman. Naseem can't.

Naseem Shah is almost 10 inches shorter and he will never be able to survive on a bad day like Shaheen or Hazlewood or Cummins by relying on bowling a difficult length even when he's a bit out of sorts. He's going to have to be at his best every single day, every single spell. And whereas McGrath and Wasim and Hazlewood and Cummins can endure after their pace falls from 144K to 134K because their height remains the same, Naseem will be like Dale Steyn, reliant on maintaining his pace well into the 140's to keep troubling the batsmen.

POTW Material
 
To be brutally honest, it’s going to make things worse for Pakistan if Naseem makes it.

Already whereas people in other countries are given the bad news at the age of 12 or 13 “I’m sorry, you’re never going to be tall enough to be a fast bowler”, in Pakistan the likes of Hasan Ali and Naseem Shah and Musa Khan get through the system.

If a guy as talented as Naseem emerges at that age there are three options - become a batsman, become a spinner or take growth hormone to make you tall enough to be a fast bowler.

The tragedy of Naseem is that he’s already too old to be treated with growth hormone. He didn’t get the advice he needed at the time he needed it.

And if he makes it anyway, more short young men will chase an impossible dream.
 
Fair point.

It's been a problem for quite a few years and I don't really see things changing very quickly.

I agree with you and that’s the crazy thing ,

We know we support a team which has systems and processes in place which deters talent not nurture it.

Yet we can not stop watching even after match fixing and spot fixing scandals.

Pakistan cricket is like a drug which is more addictive then herion! 🤣
 
Is Vernon Philander not around 5'9", hes not had a bad Test career. It's fair to say its harder for short bowlers to dry up the runs in Test cricket. Short bowlers with skill will find it easier to make it on the LOI circuit.
 
Fact check
currently there are 11 players in test cricket who have 150+ test wickets out of which 3 are under 6ft
trent boult
kemar roach
mohammad shami
which makes about 25%+ of this group
 
Fact check
currently there are 11 players in test cricket who have 150+ test wickets out of which 3 are under 6ft
trent boult
kemar roach
mohammad shami
which makes about 25%+ of this group
Boult is 5’11 so he is not shorter than Marshall and Harris. And four years ago that lack of height killed him at Brisbane and Perth.

Shami is 5’10 so the same as Steyn.

Only Roach falls into that “shorter” category. He is 5’8 like Naseem.

Is Kemar Roach’s career an acceptable goal?
 
Boult is 5’11 so he is not shorter than Marshall and Harris. And four years ago that lack of height killed him at Brisbane and Perth.

Shami is 5’10 so the same as Steyn.

Only Roach falls into that “shorter” category. He is 5’8 like Naseem.
images (4).jpgimages (3).jpgimages (2).jpg
Is Kemar Roach’s career an acceptable
is shami 5'10?
 
Boult is 5’11 so he is not shorter than Marshall and Harris. And four years ago that lack of height killed him at Brisbane and Perth.

Shami is 5’10 so the same as Steyn.

Only Roach falls into that “shorter” category. He is 5’8 like Naseem.

Is Kemar Roach’s career an acceptable goal?

What is wrong in taking 190+wicket at an average 27.xx
 
What is wrong in taking 190+wicket at an average 27.xx
Kemar Roach’s record is bloated by playing 13 of his 56 Tests against Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

Without them he has 149 Test wickets at 29.22.

But look how he performs away:

7 wickets at 86.28 in Australia.
19 wickets at 31.68 in England.
2 wickets at 72.00 in India.

I don’t think that he is an argument in favour of short fast bowlers.
 
Is Vernon Philander not around 5'9", hes not had a bad Test career. It's fair to say its harder for short bowlers to dry up the runs in Test cricket. Short bowlers with skill will find it easier to make it on the LOI circuit.
Philander averaged 19 in South Africa and 29 elsewhere, including 38 in Asia.

So if he played his home tests in India or Pakistan he’d have ended up averaging 34 to 35.

So until Pakistan start playing 50% of their matches in South Africa - which I have suggested - a 5’9 guy with Philander’s ability would average 34-35 for them.
 
Really don’t think being 2 inches shorter than average is going to change how good you will be drastically. Ofc, let’s not delude ourselves into thinking being 6’2+ does not give you an advantage as a pacer, it definitely gives you a lot to work with.

At the same time, people have different proportions. There are people who are 5’8” but have long limbs, and can still extract whatever advantage they’d have being 2 or whatever inches taller.
 
Really don’t think being 2 inches shorter than average is going to change how good you will be drastically. Ofc, let’s not delude ourselves into thinking being 6’2+ does not give you an advantage as a pacer, it definitely gives you a lot to work with.

At the same time, people have different proportions. There are people who are 5’8” but have long limbs, and can still extract whatever advantage they’d have being 2 or whatever inches taller.

You’re looking at this the wrong way.

Don’t say “5’10 (Steyn) is the minimum, so being 2 inches shorter shouldn’t matter”.

Think of it as “6’0 is the minimum and you can go 2 inches below that - to Steyn - but absolutely not an inch beyond that.”

Do you understand how accurate and how quick a guy like Naseem will have to be? He will need to be five times as accurate as Shaheen and 10K quicker just to have the same impact.
 
You’re looking at this the wrong way.

Don’t say “5’10 (Steyn) is the minimum, so being 2 inches shorter shouldn’t matter”.

Think of it as “6’0 is the minimum and you can go 2 inches below that - to Steyn - but absolutely not an inch beyond that.”

Do you understand how accurate and how quick a guy like Naseem will have to be? He will need to be five times as accurate as Shaheen and 10K quicker just to have the same impact.

You’re seriously over analyzing this Junaids. Nobody here is predicting him to be an ATG, he can still be a good bowler.

But emphasizing on what I said earlier, height definitely plays a part in certain pitches in Australia.
 
Kemar Roach’s record is bloated by playing 13 of his 56 Tests against Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

Without them he has 149 Test wickets at 29.22.

But look how he performs away:

7 wickets at 86.28 in Australia.
19 wickets at 31.68 in England.
2 wickets at 72.00 in India.

I don’t think that he is an argument in favour of short fast bowlers.

Actually it is correct that taller fast bowler have edge over shorter ones but id does not mean that short fast bowler cannot become a great bowler
As you mentioned roach's stat i will give stats of tall bowler
Stuart broad 6'5
average
australia 37.17
india 53.9
Mitchell stark 6'5
india 51.xx
uae 53.xx
england 31.xx
The point is height is not only factor as roach, broad and stark all failed in india because india is arguably best batting side besides in their home condition there is less help for fast bowlers same is the case when stark came to UAE.
We need to understand why there are more 6 foot or taller bowlers who succeeded in test cricket
firstly ,Australia,England,New Zealand,south Africa and windies have produced many fast bowlers in Asia Pakistan has been producing Fast bowlers and India now are good in this department.Most of the non Asian countries have been producing fast bowlers since long ago,because they have conditions more favorable for pacer for example Australian pitches offer more pace and bounce New Zealand offers more lateral movement as a result these non Asian countries have produced lot more fast bowlers than Asian countries and more important thing is that all of these non Asian countries have average height more than Asian teams
GB,Australia,windies(Barbados) 5'9 or more
Similarly other countries are slightly taller than Asians it means that thy will have more 6'0 bowlers
but this does not mean height is the factor responsible for their success their bowling conditions are more helpful for fast bowling for example if you have a look at Indian attack in all fast bowler are
between 5'8 to 5'10 apart from Sharma and pandya on the other hand Srilanka have 2 to 3 pacers who are 6'0 eg pardeep, kumara and lakmal but Indians have better pace attack because they improved their skills and optimized conditions for fast bowling at home for example using Sg ball as sg ball has more tendency for reverse swing than kookaburra as Indians are more familiar with it they find it easier to swing than other bowlers
The last thing fast bowling has many components bounce is one of its component
most important thing is understanding and tactics
then comes control and accuracy
then ability to get lateral movement
pace and bounce
NOw [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] is not able to understand that pace and bounce are interrelated as when bowler releases the ball its velocity has both horizontal and vertical components it means if a bowler has more pace he will provide more vertical component hence he will get more bounce as compared to slower bowler of his
height similarly the actual reason of height being effective is high release point which sometimes shorter bowlers can have high release point so if a bowler 5'9 Bowler with 140kph speed can be as effective 6'0 bowler with 135kph speed provided they are equal in all other domains and remember 135kph in tests good average speed
 
Fact check
currently there are 11 players in test cricket who have 150+ test wickets out of which 3 are under 6ft
trent boult
kemar roach
mohammad shami
which makes about 25%+ of this group

Is 2020 cricket your model? Terrible era

The fact that the two greatest fastest bowlers of all time didn't break 180cm is a massive statement. Obviously fast bowling is not a taller man's domain
 
This thread was meant for [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and he's made a strong comeback.

Difficult to argue against the fact that being tall gives you a huge advantage.

However, short bowlers becoming excellent can be an exception, and only time will tell where Naseem ends up. Let's hope he can continue to bowl express pace.
 
Naseem still has a lot to prove before we think his height is not problem.
 
Naseem still has a lot to prove before we think his height is not problem.

Yeah naseem wasnt the point of this this thread really, I just think people forget Steyn and Marshall when they talk about quick bowling, I would honestly find it more reasonable if somebody argued that you need to be under 6ft to be effective everywhere , than to suggest you need to be lanky to be an effective quick
 
Yeah naseem wasnt the point of this this thread really, I just think people forget Steyn and Marshall when they talk about quick bowling, I would honestly find it more reasonable if somebody argued that you need to be under 6ft to be effective everywhere , than to suggest you need to be lanky to be an effective quick

I get where you are coming from. There are a exceptional few who can make it work. However vast majority have better advantage when they are at least 6ft and above
 
Yeah naseem wasnt the point of this this thread really, I just think people forget Steyn and Marshall when they talk about quick bowling, I would honestly find it more reasonable if somebody argued that you need to be under 6ft to be effective everywhere , than to suggest you need to be lanky to be an effective quick
But still there is the same problem.

Marshall was 5’11

Steyn is 5’10

Naseem Shah is not even 5’9: yes those two were shorter than 6’0......but they were significantly taller than Naseem.
 
Small is beautiful

#Malcolm #Tyrion

Small bowlers can skid the ball and make things very difficult. In my childhood, the fastest bowler I faced in school was among the shortest kids in the class yet he has blustering pace in the air and was very quick off the pitch.
 
But still there is the same problem.

Marshall was 5’11

Steyn is 5’10

Naseem Shah is not even 5’9: yes those two were shorter than 6’0......but they were significantly taller than Naseem.
But the affect of 2inch hight difference is ignorable as more than height it is release point that matters we will and
Naseem has high arm action
 
But still there is the same problem.

Marshall was 5’11

Steyn is 5’10

Naseem Shah is not even 5’9: yes those two were shorter than 6’0......but they were significantly taller than Naseem.

you are making this up as you go along. no way is naseem significantly shorter than malcolm marshall. they are around the same height
 
found a pic of naseem and waqar on his first match don't look much shorter than waqar so don't know what big fuss abour his hight further if he really is 17 years will probably grow at leat a Inch further
 
There are two main sides to this: FACTS and REASONS.

I am 50 years old. I have been watching Test cricket since 1975, And here are the FACTS:

FACTS
1. In 45 years of watching Test cricket, I have seen 3 fast bowlers shorter than 6 feet tall make successful careers.

2. Those three bowlers had the following heights:
Malcolm Marshall 5'11
Ryan Harris 5'11
Dale Steyn 5'10 - and he became ineffective when his median pace fell under 143K.

3. There are no bowlers shorter than 5'10 in that list. There is nobody who is 5'9 whatsoever, let alone 5'8 1/2 like Naseem Shah. (I stood next to Naseem Shah at the hotel in Adelaide, although I couldn't communicate with him. He's a little under 5'9.)

4. The same is true of football goalkeepers. In my lifetime two goalies shorter than 6'0 have had a top career: France's Fabien Barthez and Ipswich Town's Paul Cooper, both of whom - like Marshall and Harris - are 5'11 tall.

5. It is therefore a fact that anyone arguing that a fast bowler or goalkeeper shorter than 5'10 can play at the highest level in the modern game is making it up.

They are creating an argument based on what they would like to be the case rather than on FACTS. The evidence that you can be a top goalie or Test fast bowler if you are less than 5'10 tall is precisely the same as the evidence that you can be a top goalie or fast bowler if you are female, or have one leg, or are a gerbil.

6. Sadly there is increasing evidence - much of it from Pakistan - that the shorter you are the more you will struggle. Mohammad Amir has the same skills and pace as Wasim Akram. But he is 5'11 1/2 compared with 6'3.

REASONS
The OP talks about hitting the stumps. And unwittingly he has hit on the reason.

Compare Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis in the West Indies in 1992-93. Waqar was more destructive and faster, and took more wickets. But Pakistan, as always, could only compete if it was a low-scoring series.

Any fast bowler in Tests needs to do the same job - get 5 balls per over aimed at the top of off-stump. But as the grass died and the bounce dulled, Waqar had to bowl 6 inches fuller than Wasim to hit the top of off-stump. If Wasim pitched up to three inches too short or too full or too wide the batsman still couldn't play an attacking stroke because his length was still stifling. But when Waqar pitched the ball one inch too wide or too full or too short he either bowled a half-volley which was driven to the boundary or a long-hop which was cut or pulled. And Brian Lara and Desmond Haynes could and did take the first two Tests away from Pakistan in less than a session of batting.

Test cricket is a really hard game for fast bowlers after the ball goes soft and loses its shine. That means overs 20-80 with a Kookaburra and 40-80 with a Dukes ball.

And only two solutions have been found in my lifetime. Either tamper with the old ball to make it reverse, or pack your team with giants to keep the scoring rate down.

Think back to the First Test in Brisbane last November. Not when Pakistan was bowling, but when they were batting.

On Day 1 Pakistan reached around 65-0 at lunch. But Australia nowadays prefer an attack of Starc (6'6), Hazlewood (6'5) and Cummins (6'4). Justin Langer explicitly acknowledges that Pattinson (6'1) is more skilful but is only a reserve because he is shorter and cannot dry up the scoring rate the same way.

Pakistan reached 75-0 after 37 overs, but Australia after lunch had gone into "giant quicks drying up the scoring rate" mode and couldn't buy a run. Azhar Ali had looked fairly sound against full-pitched attacking bowling, but once the quicks shortened their length by another 2 inches after lunch he was suddenly reduced to edging and playing and missing because at his age he couldn't judge whether to go forward or back.

Pakistan lost 4 wickets in the next 10 overs, but they also only scored 11 runs.

I don't know where I stand on Naseem Shah. He has the finest bowling action of any Pakistani that I have ever seen - better than Wasim Akram, better than Imran Khan. It's just mesmerising.

But as I stated earlier, only 3 quicks in my 50 years have made it at a height shorter than 6'0. And none of them were as short as Naseem Shah.

Shaheen Shah Afridi has a fraction of Naseem Shah's skill. But even on an off-day - and we all have them - he will still be 6'6 tall and trouble every batsman. Shaheen can bowl a spell at 135K and still challenge the batsman. Naseem can't.

Naseem Shah is almost 10 inches shorter and he will never be able to survive on a bad day like Shaheen or Hazlewood or Cummins by relying on bowling a difficult length even when he's a bit out of sorts. He's going to have to be at his best every single day, every single spell. And whereas McGrath and Wasim and Hazlewood and Cummins can endure after their pace falls from 144K to 134K because their height remains the same, Naseem will be like Dale Steyn, reliant on maintaining his pace well into the 140's to keep troubling the batsmen.

Amazing post. I think any bowler with a height like Mcgrath or Ambrose or Cummins can trouble the batsman with very little movement if they can hit a a consistent lenght. With less height, bowlers are definitely at a disadvantage and need much more skills to get the batsmen out
 
There are two main sides to this: FACTS and REASONS.

I am 50 years old. I have been watching Test cricket since 1975, And here are the FACTS:

FACTS
1. In 45 years of watching Test cricket, I have seen 3 fast bowlers shorter than 6 feet tall make successful careers.

2. Those three bowlers had the following heights:
Malcolm Marshall 5'11
Ryan Harris 5'11
Dale Steyn 5'10 - and he became ineffective when his median pace fell under 143K.

3. There are no bowlers shorter than 5'10 in that list. There is nobody who is 5'9 whatsoever, let alone 5'8 1/2 like Naseem Shah. (I stood next to Naseem Shah at the hotel in Adelaide, although I couldn't communicate with him. He's a little under 5'9.)

4. The same is true of football goalkeepers. In my lifetime two goalies shorter than 6'0 have had a top career: France's Fabien Barthez and Ipswich Town's Paul Cooper, both of whom - like Marshall and Harris - are 5'11 tall.

5. It is therefore a fact that anyone arguing that a fast bowler or goalkeeper shorter than 5'10 can play at the highest level in the modern game is making it up.

They are creating an argument based on what they would like to be the case rather than on FACTS. The evidence that you can be a top goalie or Test fast bowler if you are less than 5'10 tall is precisely the same as the evidence that you can be a top goalie or fast bowler if you are female, or have one leg, or are a gerbil.

6. Sadly there is increasing evidence - much of it from Pakistan - that the shorter you are the more you will struggle. Mohammad Amir has the same skills and pace as Wasim Akram. But he is 5'11 1/2 compared with 6'3.

REASONS
The OP talks about hitting the stumps. And unwittingly he has hit on the reason.

Compare Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis in the West Indies in 1992-93. Waqar was more destructive and faster, and took more wickets. But Pakistan, as always, could only compete if it was a low-scoring series.

Any fast bowler in Tests needs to do the same job - get 5 balls per over aimed at the top of off-stump. But as the grass died and the bounce dulled, Waqar had to bowl 6 inches fuller than Wasim to hit the top of off-stump. If Wasim pitched up to three inches too short or too full or too wide the batsman still couldn't play an attacking stroke because his length was still stifling. But when Waqar pitched the ball one inch too wide or too full or too short he either bowled a half-volley which was driven to the boundary or a long-hop which was cut or pulled. And Brian Lara and Desmond Haynes could and did take the first two Tests away from Pakistan in less than a session of batting.

Test cricket is a really hard game for fast bowlers after the ball goes soft and loses its shine. That means overs 20-80 with a Kookaburra and 40-80 with a Dukes ball.

And only two solutions have been found in my lifetime. Either tamper with the old ball to make it reverse, or pack your team with giants to keep the scoring rate down.

Think back to the First Test in Brisbane last November. Not when Pakistan was bowling, but when they were batting.

On Day 1 Pakistan reached around 65-0 at lunch. But Australia nowadays prefer an attack of Starc (6'6), Hazlewood (6'5) and Cummins (6'4). Justin Langer explicitly acknowledges that Pattinson (6'1) is more skilful but is only a reserve because he is shorter and cannot dry up the scoring rate the same way.

Pakistan reached 75-0 after 37 overs, but Australia after lunch had gone into "giant quicks drying up the scoring rate" mode and couldn't buy a run. Azhar Ali had looked fairly sound against full-pitched attacking bowling, but once the quicks shortened their length by another 2 inches after lunch he was suddenly reduced to edging and playing and missing because at his age he couldn't judge whether to go forward or back.

Pakistan lost 4 wickets in the next 10 overs, but they also only scored 11 runs.

I don't know where I stand on Naseem Shah. He has the finest bowling action of any Pakistani that I have ever seen - better than Wasim Akram, better than Imran Khan. It's just mesmerising.

But as I stated earlier, only 3 quicks in my 50 years have made it at a height shorter than 6'0. And none of them were as short as Naseem Shah.

Shaheen Shah Afridi has a fraction of Naseem Shah's skill. But even on an off-day - and we all have them - he will still be 6'6 tall and trouble every batsman. Shaheen can bowl a spell at 135K and still challenge the batsman. Naseem can't.

Naseem Shah is almost 10 inches shorter and he will never be able to survive on a bad day like Shaheen or Hazlewood or Cummins by relying on bowling a difficult length even when he's a bit out of sorts. He's going to have to be at his best every single day, every single spell. And whereas McGrath and Wasim and Hazlewood and Cummins can endure after their pace falls from 144K to 134K because their height remains the same, Naseem will be like Dale Steyn, reliant on maintaining his pace well into the 140's to keep troubling the batsmen.

Nice post - I did read it despite the length of it. Quite a thoughtful one but as usual you spiked it by over stressing your point. That No. 6 of your facts - really?
 
naseem seems to get progressively short according to you guys, next you will be telling me he's 5ft 2'' or something
he's around the same height as malcolm marshall. even if he is 5 ft 9'', that's still tall enough to be a great. kemar roach is 5' 7'' and i would have him in my world XI alongside cummins and rabada
 

Don't think he's played enough or done enough yet to put him in the elite category. That statement was also about the collective, having only one very good bowler does not make the Pakistan bowling attack elite.
 
naseem seems to get progressively short according to you guys, next you will be telling me he's 5ft 2'' or something
he's around the same height as malcolm marshall. even if he is 5 ft 9'', that's still tall enough to be a great. kemar roach is 5' 7'' and i would have him in my world XI alongside cummins and rabada
I have checked and I maintain what I wrote: Malcolm Marshall was 2.5 inches taller than Naseem Shah and Dale Steyn is 1.5 inches taller.

Kemar Roach is the same height, and is a Bangladesh and Zimbabwe specialist!
 
Nice post - I did read it despite the length of it. Quite a thoughtful one but as usual you spiked it by over stressing your point. That No. 6 of your facts - really?
I don’t think so, not at all!

Mohammad Amir has similar pace and variation to Wasim Akram.

What he doesn’t have is Wasim Akram’s height, which means that he can’t bowl the same difficult in-between length between overs 20 and 80.

With a Dukes ball in England or the West Indies they are fairly similar. But with a Kookaburra that lack of height makes Amir much easier to bat against.
 
Sameen Gul is a tall fast bowler, so its a bit perplexing how someone like Musa has be given preference over Gul in Test cricket. Gul has a good record 1st class record.

Perhaps the tall Hasnain should also be developed for this format if he is to succeed. Hasnain got chucked into LOI where he's been tonked around but longer format may suit him.

Pakistan indeed could have an exciting young fast bowling unit comprising Gul, Afridi, Hasnain and N.Shah.
 
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I have checked and I maintain what I wrote: Malcolm Marshall was 2.5 inches taller than Naseem Shah and Dale Steyn is 1.5 inches taller.

Kemar Roach is the same height, and is a Bangladesh and Zimbabwe specialist!

lol malcom marshall was not 2.5 inches taller than naseem. malcolm was 5 ft 10 at best. marshall was not a tall man at all. i don't know where you getting these ideas from

malcolm marshall and naseem shah are both around 5 ft 10
 
malcolm marshall was pretty short. like shorter than me and i consider myself pretty average. at the same time, malcolm marshall is probably the greatest fast bowler ever
 
I don’t think so, not at all!

Mohammad Amir has similar pace and variation to Wasim Akram.

What he doesn’t have is Wasim Akram’s height, which means that he can’t bowl the same difficult in-between length between overs 20 and 80.

With a Dukes ball in England or the West Indies they are fairly similar. But with a Kookaburra that lack of height makes Amir much easier to bat against.

You see, you stress a point to fit in your flawed argument and then keep dragging it. I am a fan of Amir, but what you wrote is an insult to Wasim Akram.

Ok then, explain this - Amir & Waquar are almost identical height, probably inch perfect match & Waquar has almost identical Test/ODI career stats like Wasim (arguably better in Test, considering he had better strike rate) and they played in similar era. Now, based on your logic - Waquar has to have a significantly better skills & pace than Wasim to be at per with him being 4 inches shorter.
 
Guys I just realised something , is Naseem not actually 18/19 years old ? Surely he could grow a few inches ??

Me personally grew 5 inches from the age of 17-20

Growing 2 inches from 19-20
 
Guys I just realised something , is Naseem not actually 18/19 years old ? Surely he could grow a few inches ??

Me personally grew 5 inches from the age of 17-20

Growing 2 inches from 19-20

That's not the norm though, most boys stop growing after 16.
 
You see, you stress a point to fit in your flawed argument and then keep dragging it. I am a fan of Amir, but what you wrote is an insult to Wasim Akram.

Ok then, explain this - Amir & Waquar are almost identical height, probably inch perfect match & Waquar has almost identical Test/ODI career stats like Wasim (arguably better in Test, considering he had better strike rate) and they played in similar era. Now, based on your logic - Waquar has to have a significantly better skills & pace than Wasim to be at per with him being 4 inches shorter.

Which is pretty much the case.

Waqar at his peak - of pace - averaged under 20 with the ball for five years from 1990 onwards. In fact, his average only exceeded 20 during the Second Test in Australia in December 1995.

Has he retired then with 195 wickets at 19.90 he’d be recognised as the GOAT bowler.

But as he lost his pace he lacked the height to compensate, and his final 178 wickets from that point cost 27.57 each. Whereas Wasim Akram’s Final 178 wickets came at 24.72 each.

So the tall W only saw his average worsen by 2 runs compared with his average for the first half of his career when he lost his pace.

Whereas the short W saw his average worsen by 8 runs per wicket when he lost his pace.

I can’t emphasise just how precious an asset height is for a fast bowler.
 
I don’t think so, not at all!

Mohammad Amir has similar pace and variation to Wasim Akram.

What he doesn’t have is Wasim Akram’s height, which means that he can’t bowl the same difficult in-between length between overs 20 and 80.

With a Dukes ball in England or the West Indies they are fairly similar. But with a Kookaburra that lack of height makes Amir much easier to bat against.

Amir did well with the kookaburra in south Africa he struggled in New Zealand when he toured Nz for the first time but he was good in second tour the two venues where kookaburra was used and were nightmare for amir are UAE and Australia now as you mentioned he struggled from over 20 to 80 now as our home ground was UAE so at the time when amir played test cricket so he had do perform well in UAE
frankly in UAE best time for a bowler to get wickets for fast bowler is between over 20 to 80 because conditions are favorable for reverse swing most of the bowlers exploited reverse swing to get wickets in UAE which amir could not in terms of average two of our best bowlers in UAE are shorter than amir i have listed some Pak bowlers and their averages in UAE
Bowler Average
mohammad abbas 17.55
Hassan Ali 23.93
Junaid Khan 32.3
Wahab Riaz 33.52
Mohammad Amir 56.42
Actually despite being the most complete fast bowler among the above mentioned Amir was big failure in home conditions and height did not matter much in home conditions as Abbas and Hasan were good in those conditions reason behind that after 5 year ban Amir's body was not good enough to withstand the tough conditions it was not his height which let him down it was his fitness which hindered his success
as a he was a total failure in home conditions
 
Which is pretty much the case.

Waqar at his peak - of pace - averaged under 20 with the ball for five years from 1990 onwards. In fact, his average only exceeded 20 during the Second Test in Australia in December 1995.

Has he retired then with 195 wickets at 19.90 he’d be recognised as the GOAT bowler.

But as he lost his pace he lacked the height to compensate, and his final 178 wickets from that point cost 27.57 each. Whereas Wasim Akram’s Final 178 wickets came at 24.72 each.

So the tall W only saw his average worsen by 2 runs compared with his average for the first half of his career when he lost his pace.

Whereas the short W saw his average worsen by 8 runs per wicket when he lost his pace.

I can’t emphasise just how precious an asset height is for a fast bowler.

Junaids,

Around 20 years back, around this time I watched a Test match at Antigua, almost sacrificing whole night’s sleep - chronic diabetic from his 20s, an officially almost 35, Wasim Akram took 11 wickets bowling like 60+ overs in Caribbean summer.... the skill I saw in that one game, put Amir’s entire career in one side, still it won’t balance that one Test. It’s very foolish of you to differentiate the two just for the sake of your argument- the gap was much more than four inches.

Waquar’s decline was mainly for his age cheating - that SCG Test 1995, he was officially 25, and one Aussie commie (Lawry probably), made a comment that the oldest U25 face he had ever seen .....

You are contradicting yourself here by that WW comparison. WY was leather in his first few years because of his sheer pace, added with late swing - both are his skill, not genetically gifted height. With age, he lost pace and his late swing was better negotiated by batsmen; this is common for every fast bowler. Here, more than his lack of height (which was always same all through, he didn’t shrink with age), it’s his loss pace & stamina that cost him more. Even then, sometimes in 2001, he bowled some unbelievable spells in triangular series in UK, took a 7for & a 6for with prodigious late movement of the new white ball.

It’s quite foolish to think that Wasim’s decline was relatively lower because of his height only. He was the most skilled bowler that I have ever seen - both live or archived, which made him unplayable even in his last few months. Had he not been diabetic, he probably could have played 20 more Tests and reach 500 wickets.

There is no denying that height is useful asset for fast bowling, and young, vertically challenged fast bowlers should focus on batting for a secured career, but your comparison between Amir & Wasim based on height is unacceptable. Few months back, I responded to one of your similar post on the 4 English pacers - Broad, Anderson, Stokes and another guy can’t recall now; shortest of them is 6’2” while the taller two were 6’5”+ .... and they went for plenty at a shameful rate for a WACA Test.... it’s the skill set first, height is definitely complementary; but that won’t make Ehsan Adil into Glen McGrath.

Take the WI current lot - Bangladesh specialist Kemar Roach is their shortest pacer and still heir best; other four are 6’8” holder, 6’6” Cummins, 6’5” Oshane Thomas & 6’4” Shannon Gabriel - their height couldn’t make them even Bangladesh specialist. It’s the skill set first; but yes, between two pacers with comparable skills, the talker one should be backed.
 
This height stuff is nonsense at times. Sometimes a player isn't good enough regardless of height. Lack of height is an excuse and type of wording for not good enough.

Naseem will only fail if he isn't good enough, won't be due to lack of height.
 
I think height is important support to have in few conditions but its turning into over obsession here.

We dont have to go far back, Lasith Malinga has probably the most number of ODI wickets in the last decade or so and he is 5ft 8. Further as stated by many Dale Steyn is 5ft 10 and he is the modern day legend in test cricket.

They way some are saying if you arent tall you cant be a fast bowler would have meant the above two pacers with would never have played the game and international cricket would have lost couple of pacers with more than 1000 wickets between them in last decade and a half in ODIs and Tests.

Skills are always gonna be > than the height unless we are comparing two pacers with mediocre skills or someone with extraordinary skills along with height as height is definitely a good supporting factor to have.

As have posted multiple times on the topic other than really few surfaces around the cricketing world lack of height isnt a handicap if you have other necessary skills to be a good pacer. In terms of overall variety of the attack its good to have a skillful tall pacer in the weaponry but as said earlier what makes the difference is the skills one has with the ball and thats what matters on majority of the surfaces.
 
Height certainly is a huge factor whether we like it or not. Tall bowlers certainly can bowl dry and maintain pressure in long spells. For shorter bowlers, they have to be Steynesque. Swung the kookaburra more than anyone not named Boult, maintained a high average speed throughout his career and at his wicket taking best avg speed was 138+ and bowled a high percentage(roughly 18%) of bouncers (fast, skiddy). If you can combine those skills at a high average pace like Steyn did for the majority of his career, a short guy can do brilliantly in tests even with the kookaburra.

So, in other words only exceptional short bowlers do well in modern day test cricket . Remains to be seen if Naseem can emulate that.
 
It's laughable that a certain poster here thinks being 1-2 inches shorter than a certain height will render a bowler useless.

Height, like pace, swing, and accuracy is just another factor in bowling. Yes, being tall is an advantage. That doesn't mean you can't be successful if your're not tall, or that you certainly will be successful if you are tall.
 
To be brutally honest, it’s going to make things worse for Pakistan if Naseem makes it.

Already whereas people in other countries are given the bad news at the age of 12 or 13 “I’m sorry, you’re never going to be tall enough to be a fast bowler”, in Pakistan the likes of Hasan Ali and Naseem Shah and Musa Khan get through the system.

If a guy as talented as Naseem emerges at that age there are three options - become a batsman, become a spinner or take growth hormone to make you tall enough to be a fast bowler.

The tragedy of Naseem is that he’s already too old to be treated with growth hormone. He didn’t get the advice he needed at the time he needed it.

And if he makes it anyway, more short young men will chase an impossible dream.

What a ridiculous post. Naseem is at least 5.10 if not more. First get your facts right before posting nonsense. You did'nt replied on the photos of naseem with other players
 
I think height is important support to have in few conditions but its turning into over obsession here.

We dont have to go far back, Lasith Malinga has probably the most number of ODI wickets in the last decade or so and he is 5ft 8. Further as stated by many Dale Steyn is 5ft 10 and he is the modern day legend in test cricket.

Your points here don't really disapprove what Junaids has been saying as regards to height in Tests. There's been plenty of short bowlers who have done well in the shorter formats.

Steyn has already been spoken about and at 5'10" is considered on the threshold by Junaids.
 
I think a lot of guys are forgetting how fast the kid bowls which makes him stand out from a lot of bowlers (who may be taller)
 
Naseem’s action is a key factor. The way it comes down vertically imo gives his balls an extra inch or two
 
Guy I know everyone is discussing his speed , but he at the moment is not bowling express ???


He averages 88-90 that’s fast but express
 
Guy I know everyone is discussing his speed , but he at the moment is not bowling express ???


He averages 88-90 that’s fast but express

I agree, there's too much bhangra going on. I mean, his speed his fantastic for his age and all. Let's see if he can get that average up by another 3-4 mph by the time he's a grown man. We can then call that special.
 
Your points here don't really disapprove what Junaids has been saying as regards to height in Tests. There's been plenty of short bowlers who have done well in the shorter formats.

Steyn has already been spoken about and at 5'10" is considered on the threshold by Junaids.

As said multiple times before other than very few venues height is not a handicap and even in those venues we have seen outstanding performances within last 5 years with bowlers around 5ft 10. Shami and Bumrah have mediocre heights they did well even in Aus and were decent even in SA. At the same time Vishwa Fernando who is 5ft 10 was a key performer for Srl winning historic series in SA.

Reinforcing my previous point height is a good advantage to have but skills are more important. Talking about threshold 5 ft 10 what exactly is Naseem Shah’s height? As far as I understand he is around that threshold unless you can share a source.
 
Too much focus is on height and speed. What makes Naseem special is the skills he has to move the ball both ways at this young age and that too from area of uncertainty. Its all aside that he recently bowled one of the fastest test spells in recent times and only Joefra Archer’s Ashes spell comes close. He is rated highly than others who can bowl with similar pace due to his skills.

Bowling 150kph and being 7 ft is useless if you dont know where to ball and how to ball.
 
As said multiple times before other than very few venues height is not a handicap and even in those venues we have seen outstanding performances within last 5 years with bowlers around 5ft 10. Shami and Bumrah have mediocre heights they did well even in Aus and were decent even in SA. At the same time Vishwa Fernando who is 5ft 10 was a key performer for Srl winning historic series in SA.

Reinforcing my previous point height is a good advantage to have but skills are more important. Talking about threshold 5 ft 10 what exactly is Naseem Shah’s height? As far as I understand he is around that threshold unless you can share a source.

Yes, these guys are on that threshold that can succeed. Basically, they are just tall enough in that if they err in length that little bit, they can still get away with it as both Bumrah and Shami are very quick. Bumrah also has that very high arm action, one of the highest around.

There is no official source as far I can see that is listing Naseem Shah's height although in his Talent Spotter thread, he is listed as 5'10" which is good for the kid if its true although some say he might be only around 5'8 to - 5'9. I can see from that pic he's taller than Musa (who isn't?) but considerably shorter than Hasnain.
 
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Naseem is not very tall but he has shown good promise so far. He should be fine. He seems much more talented than Hasan Ali.
 
I don’t know if he is too short, but he is certainly too awful to make it.
 
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