Need to tell youth Azadi will never happen, you can’t fight us: Army Chief General Bipin Rawat

[MenInG]

AZADI will not happen, you cannot fight the Army — this is a dictum Kashmiri youth need to know, Chief of Army Staff General Bipin Rawat has said, in an interview to The Indian Express.

Expressing concern over Kashmiri youth “picking up the gun” and “those who tell them (that) this path will bring Azadi…misleading them,” Gen Rawat said: “I want to tell Kashmiri youth that Azadi isn’t possible. It won’t happen. Don’t get carried away unnecessarily. Why are you picking up weapons? We will always fight those who seek Azadi, those who want to secede. (Azadi) is not going to happen, never”.

General Rawat said that he doesn’t attach much importance to the number of militants who are killed in encounters with the Army. “These numbers don’t matter to me because I know this cycle will continue. There are fresh recruitments happening. I only want to stress that all this is futile, nothing is going to be achieved by them. You can’t fight the Army”.

General Rawat said he is perturbed by the killings. “We don’t enjoy it. But if you want to fight us, then we will fight you with all our force. Kashmiris have to understand that the SFs (security forces) haven’t been so brutal — look at Syria and Pakistan. They use tanks and air power in similar situations. Our troops have been trying their level best to avoid any civilian casualty despite huge provocation,’’ he said. “I know that the youth are angry. But attacking security forces, throwing stones at us isn’t the way”.

He defined the challenge as one to break this cycle so that calm returns. “I don’t understand why people are coming out in huge numbers to disrupt our operations. Who is inciting them? If they want that the militants aren’t killed, they should go and tell them to come out without their weapons so that nobody is killed,’’ he said. “Let anyone of them say — mein le kay aata hun (I will bring him out). We will halt our operation. We can’t allow people to disrupt our operations and help terrorists to flee”.

Instead, General Rawat said that the people are “inciting security forces by pelting stones at them to disrupt the operations…they are inciting security forces to become more aggressive.’’

Asked about the Army’s current muscular policy, General Rawat said: “The Army did try a soft approach too. Until June 2016, everything was fine. What is that incited people so much because of that one encounter? (in which Hizbul’s Burhan Wani was killed). Everything was turned upside down in a few days time. The entire South Kashmir was out in the streets, throwing stones at us, attacking our posts. By October-November, I was getting messages that people say Azadi dur nahi hai (Azadi isn’t far away). Somebody was feeding this to people, telling them Azadi was around the corner. Our posts were being regularly attacked. Stones were being pelted at our men. We had to bring the situation under control. We couldn’t afford all that. We needed to tell people Azadi isn’t happening. We had to establish the writ (of the state)”.

“(The Burhan Wani encounter) wasn’t the first such encounter in Kashmir,’’ he said. “I am still trying to understand where did all that anger come from. The youth have gotten themselves in Pakistan’s trap. They are being consistently incited to attack us”.

General Rawat said that he understands that “there isn’t a military solution to this issue”. “This is why we want politicians, political representatives to go into villages especially in South Kashmir to talk to people. But they are scared that they will be attacked,’’ he said. “It will happen once there is calm. And we are hopeful that people will soon realize that all this is futile and start thinking differently”.

The Army chief said he is “ready to suspend” military operations to avoid civilian casualties. “But who will guarantee that there won’t be fire at our men, at our vehicles? Who will guarantee that policemen, political workers, our men returning home on leave aren’t attacked, aren’t killed?’’ he asked. “Our men who were unarmed, who had returned home on leave were killed…(consider the case of) Lt Umar Fayaz. We killed his killers but we had to sacrifice four of our men to do so. Policemen are regularly attacked. Political workers are killed,’’ he said. “Once a stone is thrown at us…once they fire at us.. then there is no way we will not respond and respond sternly. Those how want to fight us, we will fight them”.

“These youngsters, who have picked up guns aren’t a challenge for us. Terrorists aren’t a big challenge for us. We have been telling the people (civilian population) not to come to disrupt our operations, not to throw stones at us,’’ he said. “Recently, we left an operation unfinished at one place. We withdrew our men so that the situation doesn’t turn bad. But as we left, our men came under fire from another house at a different place. A JCO (Junior Commissioned Officer) was injured. He is still in hospital”.

He referred to a new trend, that even those who want to surrender tell us please don’t say we have surrendered.

“They don’t want it look like surrender. They don’t even want us to say they were arrested. They want to make it look like they were injured and that’s why they were captured in the process of the encounter,” he said. “There is fear. Otherwise, how can you explain this?”

General Rawat said that, recently, he has tried to reach out but nobody has come forward to reciprocate. “When I spoke (on April 15), that very evening we were attacked. People have to reciprocate so that we can move forward,’’ he said.

“Young people are getting excited by IS flags. Do you know what that means? Do you want to Talibanise Kashmir? Do you want Kashmir to turn into such a society? Do you want to live in such a society?” he asked. “These young people do not understand the meaning of it all. Somebody is inciting these young people”.

Responding to his support for Major Leetul Gogoi’s move to strap a Kashmiri man to a jeep as a human shield last year on polling day in Budgam, General Rawat said: “That was the only option other than to open fire at a mob that was pelting stones”.

“He (the Army officer) could have opened fire and killed people. Instead, he used the best available option with him in those given circumstances,’’ General Rawat said. “Besides, we were investigating the issue when an FIR was filed against him. My officer felt that he is being abandoned. I can’t let my officer feel that”.

General Rawat said that people (in Kashmir) should understand that this turmoil is taking a toll on development. “Tourism has been adversely affected. Houseboats and guesthouses are empty. What will those people eat if they don’t earn,’’ he said. “We will have a train connecting the Valley to the rest of the country soon – imagine how it will change the fortunes of people . the apple grower in Sopore can send his apples anywhere in the country without any hassle. People have to recognize this development and be thankful. it has to be a two-way process”.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-will-never-happen-you-cant-fight-us-5170701/

 

[MenInG]

Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf MPA Shoaib Siddiqui on Friday tabled a resolution in the Punjab Assembly condemning a statement by the Indian army chief in which the military official described the struggle for freedom in India-Held Kashmir (IHK) as "futile".

The resolution pointed out that the Indian general's statement was an admission that the Kashmiri people are not terrorists but ordinary people who are fighting for freedom.

The resolution urged Organisation of Islamic Cooperation member states and other international organisations to intervene in the matter and ensure that the Kashmir conflict is solved in accordance with the United Nations's resolution.

'Azadi won't happen'
In an interview to The Indian Express on Thursday, Indian Army Chief General Bipin Rawat warned Kashmiri youth that "azadi (freedom) is not possible".

"It won’t happen," he told the publication. "Don’t get carried away unnecessarily. Why are you picking up weapons? We will always fight those who seek azadi, those who want to secede. (Freedom) is not going to happen, never."

Held-Kashmir's new normal: Curfew, search operations and military crackdowns

General Rawat claimed that the number of 'militants' killed in the encounters didn't "matter to him because [...] this cycle will continue".

The general said that he did not "enjoy" killing innocent people but if Kashmiris wanted to "fight" the Indian army, the latter would "fight back with all [its] force".

He added that the Indian security forces have not been "so brutal" to the Kashmiris. "Look at Syria and Pakistan," he insisted. "They use tanks and air power in similar situations."

He then admitted that the Kashmiri people have grievances but warned that "throwing stones at the forces isn't the way".

The Indian general expressed surprise that the Burhan Wani encounter incited so much "anger" in the people of Kashmir.

“(The Burhan Wani encounter) wasn’t the first such encounter in Kashmir,’’ he said. “I am still trying to understand where did all that anger come from. The youth have gotten themselves in Pakistan’s trap. They are being consistently incited to attack us."

India-held Kashmir has seen an explosion of protests against Indian rule since government forces shot and killed Burhan Wani in 2016.

The death of the charismatic 23-year-old, who had built up a big following on social media, sparked an outpouring of grief and anger that spilled into the streets and led to months of clashes with security forces.

Also read: Burhan Wani has become what India long feared

"We had to tell people that azadi isn't happening," Rawat insisted. "We had to establish the writ [of the state]."

He admitted that a military solution to the Kashmir issue was not possible and the army wanted politicians to visit the area and "talk to people".

"But [the politicians] are scared that they will be attacked,’’ he said.

He also regretted that tourism in the area had been affected due to the Kashmiri struggle.

Separatists have been fighting since 1989 against the roughly half a million Indian soldiers deployed in the territory, demanding independence or a merger of the entire disputed region with Pakistan.

Tens of thousands, mostly civilians, have died in the fighting.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1407022/p...fs-statement-calling-kashmiri-struggle-futile

 

[Swashbuckler]

It is my view that you can't forcibly occupy land if the local population despises you. It may take 500 years but eventually they will get azadi if in their hearts they don't accept Indian authority, that is what we have seen right throughout history. India has only 2 options: win the hearts of Kashmiris with love and make them feel they belong to India or let them go thus saving potentially 1000s of lives. I don't see any Indian government settling for the 2nd option. So my advice to GOI will be to start dialogue process (with all parties, also the separatists) and hear them out, understand their problems. Gradually remove the uniformed forces from populated areas and make Kashmiris feel more free and secure.

Modi government has terribly mishandled Kashmir, only alienating the locals more. Moreover every extremist activity by Hindutva fanatics will have severe repercussions in the valley, every cow lynching/hate crime will only make Kashmiri Muslims more suspicious of Indians. Sadly I don't see the situation improving because Modi is here to stay for the long term and he is no Vajpayee.

 

[MenInG]

strange thing to say.

So we are now admitting that Kashmir azadi thing is a popular local movement?

 

[Greenstorm]

It is my view that you can't forcibly occupy land if the local population despises you. It may take 500 years but eventually they will get azadi if in their hearts they don't accept Indian authority, that is what we have seen right throughout history. India has only 2 options: win the hearts of Kashmiris with love and make them feel they belong to India or let them go thus saving potentially 1000s of lives. I don't see any Indian government settling for the 2nd option. So my advice to GOI will be to start dialogue process (with all parties, also the separatists) and hear them out, understand their problems. Gradually remove the uniformed forces from populated areas and make Kashmiris feel more free and secure.

Modi government has terribly mishandled Kashmir, only alienating the locals more. Moreover every extremist activity by Hindutva fanatics will have severe repercussions in the valley, every cow lynching/hate crime will only make Kashmiri Muslims more suspicious of Indians. Sadly I don't see the situation improving because Modi is here to stay for the long term and he is no Vajpayee.

Finally a sane voice.

 

[Madplayer]

It is my view that you can't forcibly occupy land if the local population despises you. It may take 500 years but eventually they will get azadi if in their hearts they don't accept Indian authority, that is what we have seen right throughout history. India has only 2 options: win the hearts of Kashmiris with love and make them feel they belong to India or let them go thus saving potentially 1000s of lives. I don't see any Indian government settling for the 2nd option. So my advice to GOI will be to start dialogue process (with all parties, also the separatists) and hear them out, understand their problems. Gradually remove the uniformed forces from populated areas and make Kashmiris feel more free and secure.

Modi government has terribly mishandled Kashmir, only alienating the locals more. Moreover every extremist activity by Hindutva fanatics will have severe repercussions in the valley, every cow lynching/hate crime will only make Kashmiri Muslims more suspicious of Indians. Sadly I don't see the situation improving because Modi is here to stay for the long term and he is no Vajpayee.

You dont understand the Kashmir issue at all if you think Kashmiris want love of India. We have had enough of your "love". Give your love to the dalits and millions of your countrymen who live below poverty line. A bullet's cost may feed a poor Indian for a week.

 

[Madplayer]

Finally a sane voice.

Its not a sane voice. Its a utopian vision based on inherent bias of an Indian who wants to pull the strings in such a manner that in the end his country gets its way. The sugar coating is simply to make it sound better and acceptable. Have seen tons of Indians making these sugar coated "realistic" arguments which favour Indian occupation.

 

[Greenstorm]

Its not a sane voice. Its a utopian vision based on inherent bias of an Indian who wants to pull the strings in such a manner that in the end his country gets its way. The sugar coating is simply to make it sound better and acceptable. Have seen tons of Indians making these sugar coated "realistic" arguments which favour Indian occupation.

Atleast he is admitting that India has forcibly occupied your land. I have not seen that kind of admission here from an Indian poster before so maybe I got carried away a little.

 

[Moh@n]

Some thought provoking points:

[UTUBE]XBXJDZJiGXY[/UTUBE]

 

[Greenstorm]

Some thought provoking points:

[UTUBE]XBXJDZJiGXY[/UTUBE]

Laughable to say the least.

 

[www787]

Some thought provoking points:

[UTUBE]XBXJDZJiGXY[/UTUBE]

It is if you are Indian, for the rest, its laughable.

 

[Swashbuckler]

You dont understand the Kashmir issue at all if you think Kashmiris want love of India. We have had enough of your "love". Give your love to the dalits and millions of your countrymen who live below poverty line. A bullet's cost may feed a poor Indian for a week.

If it were up to me I would allow allow Kashmiris to decide their own future, i.e. separate country. But I am not that powerful and not the person who can influence Delhi's position. I believe if Kashmir is to continue to be a part of India (which it will be for a significant time realistically speaking) at least there should be peace. I understand 98% (may be more, not sure of the math) of Kashmiris don't want to be a part of India, but what can I do? I agree with you that we waste too much money in trying to occupy the valley, we can use that money for development purposes and improve our HDI. Also our relation with Pakistan will improve if Kashmir gets freedom. Too much blood (both sides) has been shed the last 70 years, houses wrecked and innocents exiled from their land. Ideally we should have seen a more sensible partition with independent Kashmir and independent East Pakistan. I can't tell about Pakistan but we should also have conducted referendums in North East India because many of those states were never a part of India for majority of our history and there are nationalistic aspirations among some groups there. By doing all this there would have been more peace and the poor South Asian countries would have more money to devote for upliftment from poverty.

I sympathize with all oppressed people be it Kashmiris or Sri Lankan Tamils or tribals in Bastar. In my opinion the best method for all these people to get freedom/more rights will be to give up arms and adopt non violence like Gandhi, Mandela. By indulging in violence you lose sympathy, alienate well wishers, destroy your next generation and let's admit it the adversaries have more military/economic might to win a long drawn struggle. LTTE adopted violence and look where it got them, did Lankan Tamils benefit because of them? LTTE turned on many peaceful freedom fighters of Jaffna, gave an excuse to Lankan army to go all out and as a result there was a genocide, extreme human rights violations. May be by non violent struggle they could have achieved their end goal even if it had taken longer time. In the last century Gandhian struggles on moral grounds have achieved more success and lasting peace than terrorism/guerrilla warfare.

 

[Moh@n]

Laughable to say the least.

It is if you are Indian, for the rest, its laughable.

Any counter argument to any of those points raised?

 

[www787]

Any counter argument to any of those points raised?

No! Dismissing it as laughable because that’s all you can do unless you are and Indian.

 

[Pakistanian]

Why can't India give Kashmir a Bhutan or Nepal-like status? Open borders and travel but they'll be an independent state with their own govt, flag, and identity.


They can still have good relations with Kashmir like they do with Nepal and Bhutan.

 

[CricketCartoons]

In the last century Gandhian struggles on moral grounds have achieved more success and lasting peace than terrorism/guerrilla warfare.

gandhian struggles have achieved jack. gandhian philosophy suits the occupiers.

 

[Pakistanian]

Some thought provoking points:

[UTUBE]XBXJDZJiGXY[/UTUBE]

Uh.... A lot of pahari muslims and the bakerwals he speaks of, also want independence from India lmao. In fact they're the ones that rebelled in the first place since they had access to guns as they were allowed to be part of the British army.

 

[Moh@n]

Why can't India give Kashmir a Bhutan or Nepal-like status? Open borders and travel but they'll be an independent state with their own govt, flag, and identity.


They can still have good relations with Kashmir like they do with Nepal and Bhutan.

The state of Jammu and Kashmir already has it's own flag and it's own constitution.

 

[Greenstorm]

Any counter argument to any of those points raised?

I did not bothered to watch video till end. He is essentially ranting about lies and propaganda of Pakistan and how we fool "gullible"(selection of his words depicts his mentality) Kashmiris. Lets suppose there are 270000 Indian troops in Kashmir and none of them are stationed in major cities and towns as he has said. These soldiers are meant to protect about 800 Km of LOC. Now that is almost 200 soldiers per Kilometer and he is telling us that Pakistani "terrorists" regularly cross India and "brainwash" poor gullible Kashmiris. How is that even possible ? This whole theory is flawed at every level. He is actually admitting that Pakistanis regularly brainwash Kashmiris and as a result Indian army kill/subjugate kashmiris, if anyone has a problem with that, he/she can go to courts.

His point regarding migration is so ridiculous. If Palestinians, Kashmiris or anyone else is not willing to vacate his land in the face of oppression it means that there is no oppression. I do not know how you can call all this as thought provoking.

 

[Pakistanian]

The state of Jammu and Kashmir already has it's own flag and it's own constitution.

That unappealing flag is not the ones Kashmiri identify with. They need their own seperate flag and country like Nepal.

 

[Pakistanian]

I did not bothered to watch video till end. He is essentially ranting about lies and propaganda of Pakistan and how we fool "gullible"(selection of his words depicts his mentality) Kashmiris. Lets suppose there are 270000 Indian troops in Kashmir and none of them are stationed in major cities and towns as he has said. These soldiers are meant to protect about 800 Km of LOC. Now that is almost 200 soldiers per Kilometer and he is telling us that Pakistani "terrorists" regularly cross India and "brainwash" poor gullible Kashmiris. How is that even possible ? This whole theory is flawed at every level. He is actually admitting that Pakistanis regularly brainwash Kashmiris and as a result Indian army kill/subjugate kashmiris, if anyone has a problem with that, he/she can go to courts.

His point regarding migration is so ridiculous. If Palestinians, Kashmiris or anyone else is not willing to vacate his land in the face of oppression it means that there is no oppression. I do not know how you can call all this as thought provoking.

He forgets that the LoC is one of the hardest borders to cross in the world and in spite of that there are several thousand kashmiri refugees in Azad Kashmir.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Why can't India give Kashmir a Bhutan or Nepal-like status? Open borders and travel but they'll be an independent state with their own govt, flag, and identity.


They can still have good relations with Kashmir like they do with Nepal and Bhutan.

Ego. Most Indians don't even care about Kashmir or its people. An average Indian has been brainwashed into thinking that we own Kashmir and letting it go is a defeat to Pakistan and/or incentive for other states to go independent and ultimate disintegration of India. May be if it were located somewhere else away from Pakistan-China it would have even got freedom by now. I don't buy the geo- strategic excuse because without Kashmir problem, India and Pakistan would have had very different dynamics and may be even been allies. Every problem started with the faulty partition of 1947, even East Pakistan should have been a separate country right from its inception because of geographical constraints. That would have saved so many lives cost as a result of conflicts, wars and terrorism these past 70 years. We might even had an ASEAN style arrangement in South Asia with no territorial dispute. Alas ! Hope we have a Gorbachev style leader in India one day who can take the courageous and morally right decision.

 

[Greenstorm]

Ego. Most Indians don't even care about Kashmir or its people. An average Indian has been brainwashed into thinking that we own Kashmir and letting it go is a defeat to Pakistan and/or incentive for other states to go independent and ultimate disintegration of India. May be if it were located somewhere else away from Pakistan-China it would have even got freedom by now. I don't buy the geo- strategic excuse because without Kashmir problem, India and Pakistan would have had very different dynamics and may be even been allies. Every problem started with the faulty partition of 1947, even East Pakistan should have been a separate country right from its inception because of geographical constraints. That would have saved so many lives cost as a result of conflicts, wars and terrorism these past 70 years. We might even had an ASEAN style arrangement in South Asia with no territorial dispute. Alas ! Hope we have a Gorbachev style leader in India one day who can take the courageous and morally right decision.

100% agreed.

 

[Greenstorm]

He forgets that the LoC is one of the hardest borders to cross in the world and in spite of that there are several thousand kashmiri refugees in Azad Kashmir.

Yes most of them migrated to Azad Kashmir before LOC was fenced. After fencing, it is essentially impossible for them to migrate. That major is shamelessly spreading lies while at the same time calling us Pakistanis and Kashmiris as brainwashed.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Yes most of them migrated to Azad Kashmir before LOC was fenced. After fencing, it is essentially impossible for them to migrate. That major is shamelessly spreading lies while at the same time calling us Pakistanis and Kashmiris as brainwashed.

That major is a part of Republic TV (Arnab Goswami's), a so called news channel that shamelessly toes the BJP line and spreads Hindutva propaganda. There are a few other ex army men like GD Bakshi, Surendra Poonia who always toe the ultra nationalist line, don't take such people seriously. In fact all those army men who regularly get air time in channels like Times Now, Republic TV etc are there just for shouting and fetching TRPs....I won't even hesitate to call them bigots even though they are associated with the army. Armymen are generally trained to take a nationalistic line of thinking but some of these guys take it to the extreme. GD Bakshi once came to my college to deliver a speech where he mocked even Congress freedom fighters like Nehru, Gandhi, Azad while glorifying among many some RSS related leaders (RSS had nothing to do with the freedom struggle, it was an organization of cowardly traitors). Many of us who attended his speech were of the unanimous view that it was a hate speech, so don't fret over loonies, every country has such specimens. Unfortunately our loonies are getting a lot of air time because of who's in power.

 

[Napa]

Also our relation with Pakistan will improve if Kashmir gets freedom.

You really are quite gullible. The Pakistani army would find some other reason to fight India if it was not Kashmir. The Pakistani army needs India as an enemy to maintain its supremacy within Pakistan.

 

[Greenstorm]

You really are quite gullible. The Pakistani army would find some other reason to fight India if it was not Kashmir. The Pakistani army needs India as an enemy to maintain its supremacy within Pakistan.

No it does not. That is just your assumption without any sound basis to prove it.

 

[PakLFC]

Well he can't say "Azaadi will happen", can he? Just saying what he see's as being the obvious. Azaadi will not happen from the Indian perspective. Azaadi will be forced by Kashmiris and Pakistani like Pakistan itself came to existence by force as well.

 

[PakLFC]

You really are quite gullible. The Pakistani army would find some other reason to fight India if it was not Kashmir. The Pakistani army needs India as an enemy to maintain its supremacy within Pakistan.

Same goes to India as well that Pak bashing is needed to win votes. You need an enemy as well, stop trying to play the good guys. It's pathetic.

 

[LegendInzi]

seems to be a dumb guy to be making such comments...

 

[JaDed]

Ego. Most Indians don't even care about Kashmir or its people. An average Indian has been brainwashed into thinking that we own Kashmir and letting it go is a defeat to Pakistan and/or incentive for other states to go independent and ultimate disintegration of India. May be if it were located somewhere else away from Pakistan-China it would have even got freedom by now. I don't buy the geo- strategic excuse because without Kashmir problem, India and Pakistan would have had very different dynamics and may be even been allies. Every problem started with the faulty partition of 1947, even East Pakistan should have been a separate country right from its inception because of geographical constraints. That would have saved so many lives cost as a result of conflicts, wars and terrorism these past 70 years. We might even had an ASEAN style arrangement in South Asia with no territorial dispute. Alas ! Hope we have a Gorbachev style leader in India one day who can take the courageous and morally right decision.

Are you from TN? Idealistic views don't tend to get a country anywhere, just letting you know.

It's not about ego alone,it's much more than that,overtime idealistic leaders have caused the downfall of their kingdoms, countries,cultures.

 

[Napa]

No it does not. That is just your assumption without any sound basis to prove it.

Not everything in this world can be proven like a mathematical theorem. My observation was based on my accurate reading of the situation and a good understanding of the psyche of the Pakistani Military establishment.

Same goes to India as well that Pak bashing is needed to win votes. You need an enemy as well, stop trying to play the good guys. It's pathetic.

It should be obvious that the Indian Army does not dominate the country like the Pakistani Army does, so it doesn't need external enemies in the same fashion.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

from an Indian perspective these are stupid comments to make, both politically and practically

 

[akki]

Ego. Most Indians don't even care about Kashmir or its people. An average Indian has been brainwashed into thinking that we own Kashmir and letting it go is a defeat to Pakistan and/or incentive for other states to go independent and ultimate disintegration of India. May be if it were located somewhere else away from Pakistan-China it would have even got freedom by now. I don't buy the geo- strategic excuse because without Kashmir problem, India and Pakistan would have had very different dynamics and may be even been allies. Every problem started with the faulty partition of 1947, even East Pakistan should have been a separate country right from its inception because of geographical constraints. That would have saved so many lives cost as a result of conflicts, wars and terrorism these past 70 years. We might even had an ASEAN style arrangement in South Asia with no territorial dispute. Alas ! Hope we have a Gorbachev style leader in India one day who can take the courageous and morally right decision.

You said in other thread that tamil naidu and kerela never got invaded ? Right ,so just dnt you dare to talk about north indian states like kashmir when you have big zero idea about it . Got it ? Right of determination is the right of kashmiri pandits as well who got butchered tgere and many have to leave their place. You wont even know kashmir was named after rishi kahsyapa..hindu yogi.....

Anyway kashmir will always be part of india and dnt comment sitting at the southest part of country and when you have never sat your foot in north india ever...
We are very angry with army here. How dare stone pelters have this much courage to target army and while their people enjoy the most number of rights than us with our tax money.army need to be practical and take harsh steps. Indian Army is most of the time on defensive mode.

 

[PakLFC]

Not everything in this world can be proven like a mathematical theorem. My observation was based on my accurate reading of the situation and a good understanding of the psyche of the Pakistani Military establishment.



It should be obvious that the Indian Army does not dominate the country like the Pakistani Army does, so it doesn't need external enemies in the same fashion.

None of your business who is in control in Pak. At least we don't have a terrorist as PM. The point is that India needs Pak bashing to win votes. On our TV shows India is hardly discussed. You need to tell your TV hosts, military and politicians to stop their obsession with Pakistan/is.

 

[Napa]

None of your business who is in control in Pak.

You obviously missed or more likely ignored my point, which was that there won't be peace between India and Pakistan even if Kashmir is "settled" as the Pakistani military needs India as an external enemy to keep fleecing the people of Pakistan.

At least we don't have a terrorist as PM. The point is that India needs Pak bashing to win votes. On our TV shows India is hardly discussed. You need to tell your TV hosts, military and politicians to stop their obsession with Pakistan/is.

I have provided an objective survey showing that Pakistani media covers India much more and the coverage is much more negative. Stay in touch with reality. No more replies from on this from me unless I see something new.

 

[PakLFC]

You obviously missed or more likely ignored my point, which was that there won't be peace between India and Pakistan even if Kashmir is "settled" as the Pakistani military needs India as an external enemy to keep fleecing the people of Pakistan.



I have provided an objective survey showing that Pakistani media covers India much more and the coverage is much more negative. Stay in touch with reality. No more replies from on this from me unless I see something new.

Pak wants peace and there will be peace if Kashmir is settled. Other countries have problems to and often serious ones but are at relative peace with each other. Indian military also needs an enemy like Pak or China to justify it's military spending. Problem with Indian people is they point the finger at other countries for what they do themselves ten fold more. Compare your military budget to ours before speaking.You have only proved what you see!! Indian media is absolutely obsessed with Pakistan. Now they are doing ten our programmes on Mani Shankar calling Mr Jinnah as "Quaid-e-Azam" in Lahore and attacking the BJP during his visit. Just some days back they were crying about Quaid Jinnah's portrait hanging in Deccan Hyderabad. You wouldn't know what reality is but follow conjecture like most Indian's do. That is reality!

 

[www787]

You obviously missed or more likely ignored my point, which was that there won't be peace between India and Pakistan even if Kashmir is "settled" as the Pakistani military needs India as an external enemy to keep fleecing the people of Pakistan.



I have provided an objective survey showing that Pakistani media covers India much more and the coverage is much more negative. Stay in touch with reality. No more replies from on this from me unless I see something new.

Laughable and bias survey. Selecting a sample size that conviniently serve your agenda. But it was a ‘pretty’ survey.

Obviously Pakistani media would discuss India And as they should but content and context matter.

No Pakistani politician is currently or actively playing a ‘boogeyman India’ card as Indian politician, senior army and media is as ‘Pakistan is boogeyman’. No Pakistani media is going on over drive over a single tweet, giving wall to wall coverage and resorted to ask every player and actor what is their opinion on that matter. It is India who has banned Pakistani player and entertainer, it is India artist and producers who get threaten for choosing a Pakistani entertainer to perform in their movies and Its Indian Muslims who are told to leave India for saying anything positive about Pakistan, Indian Muslims are molested in Hindu temple then politician suggest it is Pakistani conspiracy. It is Indian army and Indian government which is heavily influence by hardline religious radical extremists that need external enemy like Pakistan to stay relevant.

So stop trying to feed the narrative with your bias and invalid survey that holds no value. It had no objectivity other than selectively bias survey to support your preconceived brainwashed info fed. But, you get an A for effort.

 

[humzy]

What a *****. Does this guy not understand human psychology, all these statements do is make the will of the youth stronger to motivate them to rebel even harder.
Kashmir will be free mark my words, the Kurds never gave up on their freedom and they are at that point now, and it took centuries.

 

[cricketjoshila]

None of your business who is in control in Pak. At least we don't have a terrorist as PM. The point is that India needs Pak bashing to win votes. On our TV shows India is hardly discussed. You need to tell your TV hosts, military and politicians to stop their obsession with Pakistan/is.

1. Then how is it Pakistan's business regarding how India acts in J and K? How is it Pakistans business what muslims in India do or live?

2. You calling anyone terrorist doesnot make anyone a terrorist.

3. A search on youtube will tell you how much Pakistani shows are obsessed with India and discuss things that has nothing to do with Pakistan.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What a *****. Does this guy not understand human psychology, all these statements do is make the will of the youth stronger to motivate them to rebel even harder.
Kashmir will be free mark my words, the Kurds never gave up on their freedom and they are at that point now, and it took centuries.

This marking of words is happening since 1949 ceasefire, nothing has changed since then.

A religious extremist movement is no freedom movement.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Are you from TN? Idealistic views don't tend to get a country anywhere, just letting you know.

It's not about ego alone,it's much more than that,overtime idealistic leaders have caused the downfall of their kingdoms, countries,cultures.

Yes I am from Chennai.

It isn't idealistic view, it is also the sensible view. When so many millions suffer for decades there should be no room for political point scoring or ego, we should show empathy.

 

[Swashbuckler]

You said in other thread that tamil naidu and kerela never got invaded ? Right ,so just dnt you dare to talk about north indian states like kashmir when you have big zero idea about it . Got it ? Right of determination is the right of kashmiri pandits as well who got butchered tgere and many have to leave their place. You wont even know kashmir was named after rishi kahsyapa..hindu yogi.....

Anyway kashmir will always be part of india and dnt comment sitting at the southest part of country and when you have never sat your foot in north india ever...
We are very angry with army here. How dare stone pelters have this much courage to target army and while their people enjoy the most number of rights than us with our tax money.army need to be practical and take harsh steps. Indian Army is most of the time on defensive mode.

I will talk about anything I want, you are no one to tell me what I should or shouldn't talk about. If the mods have a problem they can delete my message.

You seem like one of those ultra nationalist ones who can't tolerate difference of opinion. You feel a South Indian shouldn't talk about Kashmir while you will give lectures about every damn thing under the sun, doesn't work that way. We live in a democracy and all of us have freedom to express our views.

You mentioned Kashmiri Pandits and their plight. Well I truly sympathize with all Kashmiri Pandits who were killed, raped, driven out of their homes, humiliated and wish our government rehabilitates them at the earliest, while also compensating them for their sufferings. But unlike you my sympathy doesn't stop with just the Pandits. I am also sympathetic to the Kashmiri Muslims who have suffered for many decades now. I looked up stats of the Kashmiri Pandit exodus, 219 were killed and over 150,000 fled the valley (unofficially may be more I admit). But do you know that tens of thousands of innocent Kashmiris also died in all these years (not talking about the terrorists)? Do you have no feelings for them? There have been excessive human rights violations in the valley, check out Channel 4's documentary about it. I trust Channel 4 because they also made an accurate documentary called Sri Lanka's Killing Field covering the excesses on Sri Lankan Tamils. Neutral sources too talk about the situation in Kashmir, stop getting your views from Indian propaganda sources whose sole aim is to brainwash Indians. Very few Indian media sources talk about the real situation in the valley and unfortunately they aren't that popular. Kashmiris have seen their women raped by our security forces, yet hardly any action taken. Not saying all of the security forces are bad, but when you don't take action against the offenders don't expect locals to respect the institution. This isn't limited to the valley, even in North East and Red Corridor people have spoken about violence against women by security personnel. Bottomline is Kashmiris have never wanted to be a part of India, even during Nehru's time. If a great man like Nehru couldn't earn their trust don't expect modern day Indian leaders to win their trust. Kashmiris have never wanted to be a part of the Union and ultimately the people matter more than the land. Just because Kashmir is named after a Hindu saint doesn't mean the people there should pledge allegiance to India, what kind of warped logic is this? There are plenty of places in India named after Sufi saints too, what's in a name? I condemn the terrorists of Kashmir, in my view they should have a non violent movement and also be tolerant towards the minorities living there. But why do they pick up guns there or for that matter why do tribals pick up guns in Dantewada? Have you thought about that? Even if Pakistan is encouraging terrorism, there must be other grievances to push the youth over the edge. You may believe stone pelters are unemployed frustrated youth paid by ISI but when I see the front page of news showing young schoolgirls pelting stones, I truly believe the grievances are real and the locals are fed up of us. You have never lived under curfew with armed soldiers patrolling the streets, so you will never know. But those who have lived under such circumstances all their lives, do you expect them to lead normal lives? Not just Kashmir, all people living under AFSPA have similar grievances. Sri Lankan Tamils lived under the gaze of Sri lankan army for over 3 decades and I have listened to their stories firsthand about the terror/fear they had to go through in those times. So don't judge people sitting in your comfy home with no such worries.

If we had surrendered Kashmir in the first place in accordance with people's wishes thousand of our soldiers and paramilitary forces would never have had to lay down their lives. Thousands of Kashmiris would never have had to die in vain. Kashmiri Pandits could have been rehabilitated elsewhere with much less sufferings. We would have had good relations with Pakistan. We could have afforded to spend less money on army/security and more on development and poverty alleviation. We could have had good relations with the independent country of Kashmir like we presently have with Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Afghanistan. Am I wrong in assuming these things? Just having a certain view point doesn't make me anti national or traitor. I too want a happy, peaceful India and I too get sad when our soldiers die in Kashmir every other day. I sympathize with Kashmiris because they are oppressed people, also if the issue is solved to everyone's satisfaction we can make a better India. Right now we look at only Kashmir the land and not its people and that is what is holding us back from solving the problem. Another thing I would like to emphasize is that you can't forcibly occupy land if the people there despise you. History is replete with such examples, eventually the occupiers have to respect the wishes of the people even if it takes 500 years. Who thought in 1910 that in 40-45 years time Great Britain would give up all its colonies across the world? We can either let Kashmir issue boil for many more years thus destroying countless lives and making future generations suffer to satiate our ego...or we can do the sensible thing and prevent bloodshed and untold sufferings. I will any day choose the latter option, i.e. let the people of Kashmir decide their destiny for once and for all.

 

[akki]

I will talk about anything I want, you are no one to tell me what I should or shouldn't talk about. If the mods have a problem they can delete my message.

You seem like one of those ultra nationalist ones who can't tolerate difference of opinion. You feel a South Indian shouldn't talk about Kashmir while you will give lectures about every damn thing under the sun, doesn't work that way. We live in a democracy and all of us have freedom to express our views.

You mentioned Kashmiri Pandits and their plight. Well I truly sympathize with all Kashmiri Pandits who were killed, raped, driven out of their homes, humiliated and wish our government rehabilitates them at the earliest, while also compensating them for their sufferings. But unlike you my sympathy doesn't stop with just the Pandits. I am also sympathetic to the Kashmiri Muslims who have suffered for many decades now. I looked up stats of the Kashmiri Pandit exodus, 219 were killed and over 150,000 fled the valley (unofficially may be more I admit). But do you know that tens of thousands of innocent Kashmiris also died in all these years (not talking about the terrorists)? Do you have no feelings for them? There have been excessive human rights violations in the valley, check out Channel 4's documentary about it. I trust Channel 4 because they also made an accurate documentary called Sri Lanka's Killing Field covering the excesses on Sri Lankan Tamils. Neutral sources too talk about the situation in Kashmir, stop getting your views from Indian propaganda sources whose sole aim is to brainwash Indians. Very few Indian media sources talk about the real situation in the valley and unfortunately they aren't that popular. Kashmiris have seen their women raped by our security forces, yet hardly any action taken. Not saying all of the security forces are bad, but when you don't take action against the offenders don't expect locals to respect the institution. This isn't limited to the valley, even in North East and Red Corridor people have spoken about violence against women by security personnel. Bottomline is Kashmiris have never wanted to be a part of India, even during Nehru's time. If a great man like Nehru couldn't earn their trust don't expect modern day Indian leaders to win their trust. Kashmiris have never wanted to be a part of the Union and ultimately the people matter more than the land. Just because Kashmir is named after a Hindu saint doesn't mean the people there should pledge allegiance to India, what kind of warped logic is this? There are plenty of places in India named after Sufi saints too, what's in a name? I condemn the terrorists of Kashmir, in my view they should have a non violent movement and also be tolerant towards the minorities living there. But why do they pick up guns there or for that matter why do tribals pick up guns in Dantewada? Have you thought about that? Even if Pakistan is encouraging terrorism, there must be other grievances to push the youth over the edge. You may believe stone pelters are unemployed frustrated youth paid by ISI but when I see the front page of news showing young schoolgirls pelting stones, I truly believe the grievances are real and the locals are fed up of us. You have never lived under curfew with armed soldiers patrolling the streets, so you will never know. But those who have lived under such circumstances all their lives, do you expect them to lead normal lives? Not just Kashmir, all people living under AFSPA have similar grievances. Sri Lankan Tamils lived under the gaze of Sri lankan army for over 3 decades and I have listened to their stories firsthand about the terror/fear they had to go through in those times. So don't judge people sitting in your comfy home with no such worries.

If we had surrendered Kashmir in the first place in accordance with people's wishes thousand of our soldiers and paramilitary forces would never have had to lay down their lives. Thousands of Kashmiris would never have had to die in vain. Kashmiri Pandits could have been rehabilitated elsewhere with much less sufferings. We would have had good relations with Pakistan. We could have afforded to spend less money on army/security and more on development and poverty alleviation. We could have had good relations with the independent country of Kashmir like we presently have with Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Afghanistan. Am I wrong in assuming these things? Just having a certain view point doesn't make me anti national or traitor. I too want a happy, peaceful India and I too get sad when our soldiers die in Kashmir every other day. I sympathize with Kashmiris because they are oppressed people, also if the issue is solved to everyone's satisfaction we can make a better India. Right now we look at only Kashmir the land and not its people and that is what is holding us back from solving the problem. Another thing I would like to emphasize is that you can't forcibly occupy land if the people there despise you. History is replete with such examples, eventually the occupiers have to respect the wishes of the people even if it takes 500 years. Who thought in 1910 that in 40-45 years time Great Britain would give up all its colonies across the world? We can either let Kashmir issue boil for many more years thus destroying countless lives and making future generations suffer to satiate our ego...or we can do the sensible thing and prevent bloodshed and untold sufferings. I will any day choose the latter option, i.e. let the people of Kashmir decide their destiny for once and for all.

Looks like you are one of the psedo sickular who dnt know a jack about equality. Our punjab also want different country ?? Should we go for that as well.
Kashmiris have been given all the rights ,just because muslims are in majority in kashmir there so they should demand for muslim country ? No way just like you south indians have famous holy placed there in tamil naidu,we north indians have vaishno mata and many shiva temples in himalyas. What about our sentiments ?
Kashmiris students are given reservation everywhere and they are given double rights everywhere. You dnt mess with army ,dnt throw stones then why wud army bother you. Indian army is one of the most professional one in the world. You dnt know how armies of difderent countries have treated their people in past.
Kashmiri pundits wud have rehabitilized ? Why cant kashmiri muslims be rehabitilized ????? I just hate these sort of psedo sickular people who just think of themselves as most educated ones and liberal ones and call other ultra nationalists and themselves are nost intolerant to other views.
The problem with india is more than the people deserve sorr of freedom of speeech. We need china like state policy. Here in india any person say whatever and get away. Make one rule and follow all over the country.
Do hell with religions in india if any religion comes in front of state policy. That's the way to go. And kashmir is here to stay. Hell even rohingya muslims which have nothing to do with us indians have been settled near by jammu area, and so that after some 50 -100 years they may demand for independent himachal may be.
Kashmir has a lot of importance for india,religious wise ,geographical wise ,resources wise. Keep your double standards with yourself.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Looks like you are one of the psedo sickular who dnt know a jack about equality. Our punjab also want different country ?? Should we go for that as well.
Kashmiris have been given all the rights ,just because muslims are in majority in kashmir there so they should demand for muslim country ? No way just like you south indians have famous holy placed there in tamil naidu,we north indians have vaishno mata and many shiva temples in himalyas. What about our sentiments ?
Kashmiris students are given reservation everywhere and they are given double rights everywhere. You dnt mess with army ,dnt throw stones then why wud army bother you. Indian army is one of the most professional one in the world. You dnt know how armies of difderent countries have treated their people in past.
Kashmiri pundits wud have rehabitilized ? Why cant kashmiri muslims be rehabitilized ????? I just hate these sort of psedo sickular people who just think of themselves as most educated ones and liberal ones and call other ultra nationalists and themselves are nost intolerant to other views.
The problem with india is more than the people deserve sorr of freedom of speeech. We need china like state policy. Here in india any person say whatever and get away. Make one rule and follow all over the country.
Do hell with religions in india if any religion comes in front of state policy. That's the way to go. And kashmir is here to stay. Hell even rohingya muslims which have nothing to do with us indians have been settled near by jammu area, and so that after some 50 -100 years they may demand for independent himachal may be.
Kashmir has a lot of importance for india,religious wise ,geographical wise ,resources wise. Keep your double standards with yourself.

Equating Punjab with Kashmir
Do majority Punjabis want azadi or is it just fringe Khalistanis? Because majority Kashmiris want nothing to do with India, that too right from 1947. Partition was done on religious lines and Kashmir valley is a Muslim majority region with no cultural similarity with rest of India. Malabar in Kerala too is Muslim majority but they stayed as part of India because of cultural similarity with rest of Kerala. For Kashmiris rest of Indians are aliens because they could never identify with us, get it into your head that almost all Kashmiris spanning across generations want freedom. They don't want rights, they don't want reservation, they don't want our passport, they want to be masters of their destiny. Regarding temples we can still have some sort of arrangement with independent Kashmir so that our devotees can visit for pilgrimage. We have an arrangement with China for Kailash and Sikhs from India do visit Nankana Sahib. Moreover out of the 52 Shakti Pithas, many are in Pakistan and Bangladesh, most Hindus won't even be aware of them because we have enough temples in India. Temples, geography, resource...all I see are technicalities and excuses to somehow justify our presence in the Kashmir valley.

 

[Madplayer]

Looks like you are one of the psedo sickular who dnt know a jack about equality. Our punjab also want different country ?? Should we go for that as well.
Kashmiris have been given all the rights ,just because muslims are in majority in kashmir there so they should demand for muslim country ? No way just like you south indians have famous holy placed there in tamil naidu,we north indians have vaishno mata and many shiva temples in himalyas. What about our sentiments ?
Kashmiris students are given reservation everywhere and they are given double rights everywhere. You dnt mess with army ,dnt throw stones then why wud army bother you. Indian army is one of the most professional one in the world. You dnt know how armies of difderent countries have treated their people in past.
Kashmiri pundits wud have rehabitilized ? Why cant kashmiri muslims be rehabitilized ????? I just hate these sort of psedo sickular people who just think of themselves as most educated ones and liberal ones and call other ultra nationalists and themselves are nost intolerant to other views.
The problem with india is more than the people deserve sorr of freedom of speeech. We need china like state policy. Here in india any person say whatever and get away. Make one rule and follow all over the country.
Do hell with religions in india if any religion comes in front of state policy. That's the way to go. And kashmir is here to stay. Hell even rohingya muslims which have nothing to do with us indians have been settled near by jammu area, and so that after some 50 -100 years they may demand for independent himachal may be.
Kashmir has a lot of importance for india,religious wise ,geographical wise ,resources wise. Keep your double standards with yourself.

So you are going to continue killing us just because your temples are on OUR land? We dont want your reservations or your sham democracy where puppets are installed. Even then less than 2% people come out to vote in your elections.

Do you not see that we arent you and you arent us? We are different and separate from you in every way be it religion, ethnicity or even geography. We Dont want you. Its our land, not yours. Stop killing us for it.

 

[akki]

Equating Punjab with Kashmir
Do majority Punjabis want azadi or is it just fringe Khalistanis? Because majority Kashmiris want nothing to do with India, that too right from 1947. Partition was done on religious lines and Kashmir valley is a Muslim majority region with no cultural similarity with rest of India. Malabar in Kerala too is Muslim majority but they stayed as part of India because of cultural similarity with rest of Kerala. For Kashmiris rest of Indians are aliens because they could never identify with us, get it into your head that almost all Kashmiris spanning across generations want freedom. They don't want rights, they don't want reservation, they don't want our passport, they want to be masters of their destiny. Regarding temples we can still have some sort of arrangement with independent Kashmir so that our devotees can visit for pilgrimage. We have an arrangement with China for Kailash and Sikhs from India do visit Nankana Sahib. Moreover out of the 52 Shakti Pithas, many are in Pakistan and Bangladesh, most Hindus won't even be aware of them because we have enough temples in India. Temples, geography, resource...all I see are technicalities and excuses to somehow justify our presence in the Kashmir valley.

Hello mr . Lets talk about equal rights. What do you guys think of themselves ?? As a saviour of democracy or some great liberals or epitome of equality.
I am against JALLIKATTU which happens in your state tamil naidu . If we even talk about it you will tell us intolerant and all. You guys dnt even let us build ram temple at ayodhya and want all other important places which didnt get destroyed unluckily for you though , after thousands of years of invasions ,to be destroyed it as well....why cant you guys be some tolerant to us as well.try to understand our point of view and all. Why you want that people of this part derserve to be enslaved as they were for thousand of years and when peoppe talk about equality and then you be intorlerant to them.May be if tamil naidu or kerela were situated in place of jammu or punjab like states geographically then you wud have understand. Talking about nankana sahib ,pakistanis dnt allow hindu punjabis to visit nankana sahib. And our real civilization left to present day pakistan. Okay give kashmir to pakistan and then when population of other religion increase somewhere else ,give them other state as well. We deserve to be enslaved. Who cares about our sentiments na.
Between You dnt have idea about partition or invasions sitting there in south india. And what punjab has gone through from being one of the wealthiest place ,and one of biggest state area wise to being divided first in to india and pakistan and then in to himachal haryana and punjab. Lets not talk about it.okk ......
We wont let an inch of kashmir to go out of india till our last breath. We want equal rights. You cannot be so intolerant to us forevever

 

[cricketjoshila]

So you are going to continue killing us just because your temples are on OUR land? We dont want your reservations or your sham democracy where puppets are installed. Even then less than 2% people come out to vote in your elections.

Do you not see that we arent you and you arent us? We are different and separate from you in every way be it religion, ethnicity or even geography. We Dont want you. Its our land, not yours. Stop killing us for it.

Its our land. Our writs runs there. We will not let the same happen to the 35% non muslims of J and K that happened to the Pandits or the hindus of East Pakistan.

Muslims of Kashmir valley are not the only Kashmiris and they will certainly not dictate the course. The world has recognised the religious extremist movement of Kashmir.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Equating Punjab with Kashmir
Do majority Punjabis want azadi or is it just fringe Khalistanis? Because majority Kashmiris want nothing to do with India, that too right from 1947. Partition was done on religious lines and Kashmir valley is a Muslim majority region with no cultural similarity with rest of India. Malabar in Kerala too is Muslim majority but they stayed as part of India because of cultural similarity with rest of Kerala. For Kashmiris rest of Indians are aliens because they could never identify with us, get it into your head that almost all Kashmiris spanning across generations want freedom. They don't want rights, they don't want reservation, they don't want our passport, they want to be masters of their destiny. Regarding temples we can still have some sort of arrangement with independent Kashmir so that our devotees can visit for pilgrimage. We have an arrangement with China for Kailash and Sikhs from India do visit Nankana Sahib. Moreover out of the 52 Shakti Pithas, many are in Pakistan and Bangladesh, most Hindus won't even be aware of them because we have enough temples in India. Temples, geography, resource...all I see are technicalities and excuses to somehow justify our presence in the Kashmir valley.

How many Kashmiri hindus have you met? Even after the exodus of close to 200k pandits 28yrs back, non muslim population of Kashmir is 35% plus. If we consider the 200k missing pandits and 3 decades of their population growth non muslim population of J and K will be 40% and they want nothing to do with the terror movement there.

Where will this 40% go? Meet the same fate that hindus in Pakistan met? Or migrate to other parts of India?

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

Can someone provide internationally accepted statistics on how many Muslims and Hindus live in Kashmir??

 

[Swashbuckler]

How many Kashmiri hindus have you met? Even after the exodus of close to 200k pandits 28yrs back, non muslim population of Kashmir is 35% plus. If we consider the 200k missing pandits and 3 decades of their population growth non muslim population of J and K will be 40% and they want nothing to do with the terror movement there.

Where will this 40% go? Meet the same fate that hindus in Pakistan met? Or migrate to other parts of India?

Only Kashmir should go independent, not Jammu and Ladakh. If Muslims in Jammu/Ladakh want azadi they can migrate to the valley and non Muslims in the valley can migrate to these 2 places. Kashmiri Pandits who were driven out can be accommodated in these 2 places too. I think you have your numbers wrong. Muslim population in JK is 65%, but in the valley it is more than 95%. If Kasmiris and Pakistanis think whole JK should be given azadi, I don't agree with them. The oppressed are from a certain region and only they should get their land.

 

[Rishikesh]

Only Kashmir should go independent, not Jammu and Ladakh. If Muslims in Jammu/Ladakh want azadi they can migrate to the valley and non Muslims in the valley can migrate to these 2 places. Kashmiri Pandits who were driven out can be accommodated in these 2 places too. I think you have your numbers wrong. Muslim population in JK is 65%, but in the valley it is more than 95%. If Kasmiris and Pakistanis think whole JK should be given azadi, I don't agree with them. The oppressed are from a certain region and only they should get their land.

That means Kashmiris will get only below 16 percentage area of JK state. Do you think anyone will accept this solution. For India it's easy to maintain status quo as they have total control over politicians, state police force not to mention a well established intelligence network. Separatists and Pakistan won't agree as it is against their primary goal.

 

[humzy]

This marking of words is happening since 1949 ceasefire, nothing has changed since then.

A religious extremist movement is no freedom movement.

Did you not read what I wrote or do you not have the brain capacity? I said it took the Kurds centuries and they still achieved it , what is 1940 to 2018 compared to centuries of occupation?

 

[Madplayer]

Its our land. Our writs runs there. We will not let the same happen to the 35% non muslims of J and K that happened to the Pandits or the hindus of East Pakistan.

Muslims of Kashmir valley are not the only Kashmiris and they will certainly not dictate the course. The world has recognised the religious extremist movement of Kashmir.

The land belongs to the people of J&K, not genocidal RSS workers like you. You statements dont mean squat. What people of J&K want means everything. So go back to your patshala in India and do some other research.

 

[Madplayer]

Only Kashmir should go independent, not Jammu and Ladakh. If Muslims in Jammu/Ladakh want azadi they can migrate to the valley and non Muslims in the valley can migrate to these 2 places. Kashmiri Pandits who were driven out can be accommodated in these 2 places too. I think you have your numbers wrong. Muslim population in JK is 65%, but in the valley it is more than 95%. If Kasmiris and Pakistanis think whole JK should be given azadi, I don't agree with them. The oppressed are from a certain region and only they should get their land.

How many Kashmiri hindus have you met? Even after the exodus of close to 200k pandits 28yrs back, non muslim population of Kashmir is 35% plus. If we consider the 200k missing pandits and 3 decades of their population growth non muslim population of J and K will be 40% and they want nothing to do with the terror movement there.

Where will this 40% go? Meet the same fate that hindus in Pakistan met? Or migrate to other parts of India?

Lol @ Indians ganging up and discussing among themselves what should happen to the land of J&K, who takes what.

Listen up, when the entire land of J&K and ladakh, including Azad Kashmir Gilgit Baltistan (hopefully Aksai chin as well) goes to vote, the final outcome of that referendum will decide the fate of the territory. So dont give us your definitions of how it should be just because it suits your colonialist ambitions in J&K. That is the entire region of J&K which needs to be considered.

When that happens, Don't hold your breath in hope of seeing any significant support for India in terms of percentages. An overwhelming support for separation from Indian occupation will be the result of it. I pray that day comes soon so that everybody could go home in peace including those who kill us.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Lol @ Indians ganging up and discussing among themselves what should happen to the land of J&K, who takes what.

I hope one day you line up in the queue for Indian visa at our embassy in Srinagar, and our smart officers fed on masala dosa deny your application. Would love to see the look on your face then.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Lol @ Indians ganging up and discussing among themselves what should happen to the land of J&K, who takes what.

Listen up, when the entire land of J&K and ladakh, including Azad Kashmir Gilgit Baltistan (hopefully Aksai chin as well) goes to vote, the final outcome of that referendum will decide the fate of the territory. So dont give us your definitions of how it should be just because it suits your colonialist ambitions in J&K. That is the entire region of J&K which needs to be considered.

When that happens, Don't hold your breath in hope of seeing any significant support for India in terms of percentages. An overwhelming support for separation from Indian occupation will be the result of it. I pray that day comes soon so that everybody could go home in peace including those who kill us.

LOL since when did Jammu or Ladakh have ambitions for separation? Or for that matter Azad Kashmir, Gilgit, Aksai Chin etc, the people from those lands are happy where they are. If there has to be separation it should be where people are demanding for separation. Has there been any insurgency in Jammu or Ladakh? Have people from these 2 regions joined in the freedom struggle? Do Kashmiris share religion and ethnicity and language and culture with people from these 2 regions? As per the UN resolution whole region including Pakistani and Chinese portions have to participate in the plebiscite, good luck convincing those 2 countries especially China which has the habit of occupying other's lands unlike no other country on the planet (there are enough technicalities to stall the voting process which the parties will use). I do hope Kashmir gets its independence but if you can even convince your fellow Pakistanis about its territories going to vote I will be impressed.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You really are quite gullible. The Pakistani army would find some other reason to fight India if it was not Kashmir. The Pakistani army needs India as an enemy to maintain its supremacy within Pakistan.

Probably true, but the same is true of India, they also need the Pakistan as an enemy just as they need Bangladesh as a friendly but fenced off neighbour, otherwise if it was truly Indian territory they would have used their military superiority to reclaim their land by now.

 

[moghul]

Situation do change over the time and one should live in reality. There is no way Kashmiris should not have option of becoming an independent country. They are the one who should decide about themselves and should have three optioni in an imaginary referendum, 1-joining India, 2-Joining Pak 3- Becoming independent. My feeling is majority of them will go for 3rd option and I'm fine with that.

 

[MenInG]

BY ONE account, what happened in Shopian district in the Indian part of Kashmir on the first Sunday in May was a stinging defeat for jihadism. Security forces had trapped five armed rebels in a house during the night. When the shooting stopped at noon they were all dead. Among them was Saddam Paddar, the local commander of a militant Islamist group. He had been on the wanted list since 2014 but, more importantly to police, also happened to be the last man still at large among 11 young guerrillas whose group photograph, taken in 2015, had gone viral, inspiring support for armed resistance to Indian rule. The “neutralisation” of Mr Paddar—in the words of a police spokesman—symbolised the futility of insurrection.

Other tellings emphasise different elements of the day’s events. As happens with growing regularity during the Indian army’s search-and-kill operations in the Kashmir Valley, hundreds of villagers had gathered at the scene to try to protect the doomed fugitives. During the incident and in subsequent protests, police gunfire killed six more people, all civilians. Dozens more were hospitalised, many with shotgun pellets lodged in their eyes. More than 1,250 people have been treated for similar eye injuries over the past two years.

The Shopian “martyrs” all turned out to be local Kashmiris and not, as has often been the case in the past, infiltrators from Pakistan. Tens of thousands thronged their funerals. One viral video showed a woman, said to be Mr Paddar’s mother, standing on a rooftop before a chanting crowd and firing an automatic rifle in a gesture of defiance. It emerged, too, that one of the slain militants had been a popular teacher of sociology at the University of Kashmir. He had earned his doctorate only in November, and had joined the rebels just two days before his death. As inexorably as police are hunting down rebels, Kashmiris concluded, new recruits are joining them.

The contrast between these two narratives helps explain why Kashmir remains in uproar after 30 years of turmoil. Following a decline in political violence after a Pakistan-backed insurgency peaked 20 years ago, the death toll has mounted again in recent years, from a low of 117 fatalities in 2012 to 358 in 2017, and 132 so far this year.

Yet the situation as understood in Delhi, the Indian capital, as purveyed in the Indian press and as widely accepted by 1.3bn other Indians, is that brave Indian troops are waging a largely successful effort to crush a small but resilient band of Islamist terrorists who are operated by remote control from Pakistan. The situation as experienced in the Kashmir Valley, whose 7m people are nearly all Kashmiri-speaking Muslims, is rather different. In the absence of any political initiative from Delhi to respond to Kashmiris’ concerns, the heavy-handed efforts of half a million soldiers to crush a few dozen armed militants are compounding a growing sense of alienation from India.

The disjuncture in these views is reflected in the clumsy coalition that runs the state. One partner is the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), whose local support is concentrated in the Hindu-majority region of Jammu but which also runs the national government. The other is the Peoples Democratic Party, one of several Kashmiri groups that participate in elections and so are branded traitors by more radical factions. The relative strength of the radicals, who include pro-independence, pro-Pakistan and pan-Islamist groups, is hard to judge since they are either banned or have boycotted elections. Partly as a result, voter turnout has typically been low.

Following another bloody Sunday in early April that left 19 people dead, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the elderly leader of one dissident group, released a video of himself banging on the inside of his own gate, demanding to be released from house arrest. “Open the doors,” he shouted to police outside, “I want to attend the funeral of your democracy.”

Indian democracy is not quite dead in the Kashmir Valley, but it is certainly ailing. Since the partition of India and Pakistan in 1947 called their fate into question, Kashmiris have been hostage to relations between the two. In its focus on the bigger picture, India has often flouted Kashmiri concerns. This trend has grown harsher since the BJP took power in 2014, vowing to end “appeasement” of Indian Muslims and to get tough on Pakistan. As Mohammed Ayoob, an Indian-American political scientist, recently lamented in the Hindu, an Indian daily, “If the political elites had the sagacity to solve or at least manage the problem ‘in’ Kashmir, the problem ‘of’ Kashmir would have lost its salience over time. Unfortunately, they did exactly the reverse.”

https://www.economist.com/news/asia...-kashmiris-indias-victories-against-militants

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

I don't understand why freedom movements all over the world are seen as evil things. Be it Catalunya or Kashmir or Eastern Java etc. etc.

 

[DeadBall]

I don't understand why freedom movements all over the world are seen as evil things. Be it Catalunya or Kashmir or Eastern Java etc. etc.

If you are a minority fighting against an oppressive regime you are a rebel, terrorist etc to them but once you win history will remember you as a freedom fighter.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

If you are a minority fighting against an oppressive regime you are a rebel, terrorist etc to them but once you win history will remember you as a freedom fighter.

Yes, but my point is that why freedom is seen as a bad thing?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Did you not read what I wrote or do you not have the brain capacity? I said it took the Kurds centuries and they still achieved it , what is 1940 to 2018 compared to centuries of occupation?

Are nearly 40% of the Kurds againist this so called movement of Kurdistan?

Kashmir separatism is a religious issue not a political one.

 

[DeadBall]

Yes, but my point is that why freedom is seen as a bad thing?

Depends on the context and who you are fighting against. Some see it as freedom and others as rebellion. Has always been so and especially more so with today's media, things can be easily manipulated to suit the rhetoric of the more powerful.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Lol @ Indians ganging up and discussing among themselves what should happen to the land of J&K, who takes what.

Listen up, when the entire land of J&K and ladakh, including Azad Kashmir Gilgit Baltistan (hopefully Aksai chin as well) goes to vote, the final outcome of that referendum will decide the fate of the territory. So dont give us your definitions of how it should be just because it suits your colonialist ambitions in J&K. That is the entire region of J&K which needs to be considered.

When that happens, Don't hold your breath in hope of seeing any significant support for India in terms of percentages. An overwhelming support for separation from Indian occupation will be the result of it. I pray that day comes soon so that everybody could go home in peace including those who kill us.

Good that you have left the facade of "Kashmiris" wanting freedom to basically muslims wanting separation and then complete the job started in 1990s againist the pandits in Kashmir.

Listen, there is no way India will let another massacre of non muslims happen in the subcontinent.

All this number games of yours will mean zilch as the non muslims will never ever agree ever agree to join Pakistan or separate from India.

The world knows the reality and the religious extremism that was being championed as a freedom struggle.

Even if a separation from India happens only the valley which has a muslim majority will ever get separated while Jammu and Leh stays as it is.

 

[El Generico]

I am sure the British thought India/Pakistan would never get freedom but look what happened.

It may take time but it will happen. Has any oppression in history lasted forever?

 

[waqar goraya]

Are nearly 40% of the Kurds againist this so called movement of Kurdistan?

Kashmir separatism is a religious issue not a political one.

Religion has been an important part of culture and politics. As a BJP/RSS supporter you should know that. Along with language, culture, geography ; religion as an identity has always been a part of politics.

 

[PakLFC]

1. Then how is it Pakistan's business regarding how India acts in J and K? How is it Pakistans business what muslims in India do or live?

2. You calling anyone terrorist doesnot make anyone a terrorist.

3. A search on youtube will tell you how much Pakistani shows are obsessed with India and discuss things that has nothing to do with Pakistan.

J and K is disputed and you know it. Indian Muslim's don't matter to the vast majority of Pakistanis.

Then Hafiz Saeeeed is not a terrorist either no matter what India or America say.

Pak does talk about India but no way near how much India does about Pak. Either it is Jinnah's portrait in Hyderabad that bothers you or Mani saying something in Lahore that has upset them. Now you are all crying over Pak tweeting something about Tipu Sultan, get over it! Pak talks about America and Europe far more then it does about India. With the elections coming up India is being mentioned by no one where as in Indian elections Pak bashing is the trump card. See on justthe first page of this forum there are hardly any threads based on India.

 

[Josh]

This issue will never be solved by Force. It has to be solved politically. All these mujahideen and civilians getting killed is just waste of human lives.

If there is a solution to J&K it has to be according to the UN proposals.

Pakistan will have to vacate its army from Pakistan administered Kashmir and G B. The people who are of not local origins will have to be resettled in Pakistan. In the next step India will have to vacate its army from Indian administered Kashmir and keep a minimal number of army people to conduct a plebiscite.

The big questions are

1) Will Pakistan vacate P.A.K?
2) Will the non local population will be resettled ?
3) Will India conduct the plebiscite fairly?

I assume that Indians of other states are not allowed to settle in any part of I.A.K so I didn't mention that they have to leave too.

There is no other way beside a joint plebiscite of P.A.K & I.A.K

Or the other solution is to make LOC a permanent border and people can travel without visa or some special visa cards. It can be solved only by maturity of politics.

At present the politicians of both the countries are corrupt and not mature. The religion dominates politics.

Maybe this issue will be resolved by the end of 21st century when most of the people will become atheist and people will be smart enough to know all this fights and mujahideen thing is useless and worth nothing. A sensible secular government in Pakistan and in India will be what it will take for a referendum or to make LOC as a permanent border line.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Religion has been an important part of culture and politics. As a BJP/RSS supporter you should know that. Along with language, culture, geography ; religion as an identity has always been a part of politics.

So basically Kashmir separatism is about muslims of the valley wanting to separate and not all Kashmiris. Good that the facade of freedom movement has been abandoned by the real issue, religious extremism.

What has BJP RSS got to do with it?

 

[cricketjoshila]

J and K is disputed and you know it. Indian Muslim's don't matter to the vast majority of Pakistanis.

Then Hafiz Saeeeed is not a terrorist either no matter what India or America say.

Pak does talk about India but no way near how much India does about Pak. Either it is Jinnah's portrait in Hyderabad that bothers you or Mani saying something in Lahore that has upset them. Now you are all crying over Pak tweeting something about Tipu Sultan, get over it! Pak talks about America and Europe far more then it does about India. With the elections coming up India is being mentioned by no one where as in Indian elections Pak bashing is the trump card. See on justthe first page of this forum there are hardly any threads based on India.

1. J and K if disputed is between Indians and Kashmiris. Not Pakistanis.

2. Hafiz Saeed is a banned terrorist in the entire world, except Pakistan. He is a UN sanctioned terrorist. I can only laugh at your thinking that what you say on PP is equal to what countrys say or what UN says. Get a hold on yourself.

3.What portrait of Jinnah in Hyderabad? Lol. You dont even know about where the portrait is and you want to talk about it. Anyways i will humour your ignorance,

The portrait is in India and Mani Aiyar is an Indian who lives on taxpayers money, ofcourse Indians will talk about them. Did Tipu Sultan belong to Pakistan? Which part?

See its you who is talking about a Portrait hung in a INDIAN UNIVERSITY in India, A former INDIAN MP and Minister and a former ruler of a INDIAN region. Then you will say Indians are obsessed about Pakistan.

 

[PakLFC]

1. J and K if disputed is between Indians and Kashmiris. Not Pakistanis.

2. Hafiz Saeed is a banned terrorist in the entire world, except Pakistan. He is a UN sanctioned terrorist. I can only laugh at your thinking that what you say on PP is equal to what countrys say or what UN says. Get a hold on yourself.

3.What portrait of Jinnah in Hyderabad? Lol. You dont even know about where the portrait is and you want to talk about it. Anyways i will humour your ignorance,

The portrait is in India and Mani Aiyar is an Indian who lives on taxpayers money, ofcourse Indians will talk about them. Did Tipu Sultan belong to Pakistan? Which part?

See its you who is talking about a Portrait hung in a INDIAN UNIVERSITY in India, A former INDIAN MP and Minister and a former ruler of a INDIAN region. Then you will say Indians are obsessed about Pakistan.

A) Pakistan is an integral part of the Kashmir dispute with much off it being in Pak. Even the Kashmiri people say so and carry our flags.

B) Even Modi was banned by America before he became your PM. Your comments are beyond a joke, have you ever considered a career in comedy?? I have told you many time that the UN is just an extension of US policy. They have solved no world issue so stop telling me how great they are.

C) Do you have a problem with your eyesight or are you that dumb? I am talking about the portrait in your Aligarh University you have been crying about. It seems you are ignorant about your own country let alone the neighbours one. Better to remain silent then make a fool of yourself.

D) Where did I say Tipu belongs to Pakistan? Quote me or admit you can't read! I said Indian channels were crying some days back over Pak tweets on his birthday. Indian people always cry when Mani Shankar humiliates your country in Pakistan. I did not equate his comments with the Quaid Jinnah's portrait.

"See its you who is talking about a Portrait hung in a INDIAN UNIVERSITY in India, A former INDIAN MP and Minister and a former ruler of a INDIAN region. Then you will say Indians are obsessed about Pakistan."

You are the ones who are the ones crying about Jinnah's portrait in an Indian university, not us. What is your point here, if you don't like it then hand it back to the Pak high commission in Delhi instead of making a fuss over it then hang Mountbatten's as a replacement. We bring it up as the portrait is off our founding father. Yes you are obsessed with Pakistan and always will be.

 

[Napa]

Probably true, but the same is true of India, they also need the Pakistan as an enemy

You need to visit the SC to understand the difference. I personally know a few Indian generals, and they have at best upper-middle-class lives. There is no comparison between the way the Pakistani military dominates Pakistan and the Indian military.

just as they need Bangladesh as a friendly but fenced off neighbour, otherwise if it was truly Indian territory they would have used their military superiority to reclaim their land by now.

I am not sure why you think India would want to conquer Pakistan? Leaving aside the nukes with both countries have, an occupation would result in a sort of a civil war and the end of economic progress India has been making.

Just because some BJP extremists chant "Akhand Bharat" doesn't mean sensible Indians agree. Fortunately the leadership of BJP are much more practical, though sometimes they may say something stupid.

India gives equal democratic rights to all citizens living within its boundaries, and if it was to occupy Pakistan it would have to give Pakistanis equal rights or lose the modern Indian identity.

 

[cricketjoshila]

A) Pakistan is an integral part of the Kashmir dispute with much off it being in Pak. Even the Kashmiri people say so and carry our flags.

B) Even Modi was banned by America before he became your PM. Your comments are beyond a joke, have you ever considered a career in comedy?? I have told you many time that the UN is just an extension of US policy. They have solved no world issue so stop telling me how great they are.

C) Do you have a problem with your eyesight or are you that dumb? I am talking about the portrait in your Aligarh University you have been crying about. It seems you are ignorant about your own country let alone the neighbours one. Better to remain silent then make a fool of yourself.

D) Where did I say Tipu belongs to Pakistan? Quote me or admit you can't read! I said Indian channels were crying some days back over Pak tweets on his birthday. Indian people always cry when Mani Shankar humiliates your country in Pakistan. I did not equate his comments with the Quaid Jinnah's portrait.

"See its you who is talking about a Portrait hung in a INDIAN UNIVERSITY in India, A former INDIAN MP and Minister and a former ruler of a INDIAN region. Then you will say Indians are obsessed about Pakistan."

You are the ones who are the ones crying about Jinnah's portrait in an Indian university, not us. What is your point here, if you don't like it then hand it back to the Pak high commission in Delhi instead of making a fuss over it then hang Mountbatten's as a replacement. We bring it up as the portrait is off our founding father. Yes you are obsessed with Pakistan and always will be.

1. Kashmir isnt considered part of Pakistan by Pakiatan itself. Isnt it called "Azad" Kashmir? Pakistan is illegally squatting on PoK. Whatever dispute is there, its between Indians and Kashmiris and not Pakistanis. This is the reason no one pays heed to Pakistans whining on Kashmir.

2. What you say has zero value. But UN sanctions are international law. Pathetic reasoning.

3.Aligarh University is in Hyderabad?

4.Tipu Sultan was a ruler of Indian province. Pakistan is so obsessed with India that Pak Govt needed to comment on a 17th century Indian ruler. Whats the obssession?

Mani Aiyar lives on Indian taxpayers money and is a Indian citizen so what Indians say about him is none of Pakistan's concern.


5. The portrait is in India, we can do whatever we want with it. Pakistan has no say there.

Pakistanis are obssessed with even a portrait in India. Thats heights.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Lol at love for Kashmiri people. Yesterday here in New Delhi few people beat Kashmiri Residents in South Delhi just because one of them were feeding stray dogs. They were called 'kashmiri terrorists' and asked to go back home. They were also beaten by sticks.

 

[www787]

Lol at love for Kashmiri people. Yesterday here in New Delhi few people beat Kashmiri Residents in South Delhi just because one of them were feeding stray dogs. They were called 'kashmiri terrorists' and asked to go back home. They were also beaten by sticks.

No Indian, especially if you are RSS supporter, which mean you are BJP supporter, can have love for the people of Kashmir, specifically if those people are Muslims.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Are nearly 40% of the Kurds againist this so called movement of Kurdistan?

Kashmir separatism is a religious issue not a political one.

If you really believe that then you must agree that IoK should have always been part of Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You need to visit the SC to understand the difference. I personally know a few Indian generals, and they have at best upper-middle-class lives. There is no comparison between the way the Pakistani military dominates Pakistan and the Indian military.



I am not sure why you think India would want to conquer Pakistan? Leaving aside the nukes with both countries have, an occupation would result in a sort of a civil war and the end of economic progress India has been making.

Just because some BJP extremists chant "Akhand Bharat" doesn't mean sensible Indians agree. Fortunately the leadership of BJP are much more practical, though sometimes they may say something stupid.

India gives equal democratic rights to all citizens living within its boundaries, and if it was to occupy Pakistan it would have to give Pakistanis equal rights or lose the modern Indian identity.

I don't know why you needed a 1000 word essay to say that India would never reclaim Bangladesh or Pakistan because that would weaken the Hindu vote base.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If you really believe that then you must agree that IoK should have always been part of Pakistan.

It was a free country. Not part of India or Pakistan before Pakistan forcibly try to take it.