Need to tell youth Azadi will never happen, you can’t fight us: Army Chief General Bipin Rawat

[PakLFC]

1. Kashmir isnt considered part of Pakistan by Pakiatan itself. Isnt it called "Azad" Kashmir? Pakistan is illegally squatting on PoK. Whatever dispute is there, its between Indians and Kashmiris and not Pakistanis. This is the reason no one pays heed to Pakistans whining on Kashmir.

2. What you say has zero value. But UN sanctions are international law. Pathetic reasoning.

3.Aligarh University is in Hyderabad?

4.Tipu Sultan was a ruler of Indian province. Pakistan is so obsessed with India that Pak Govt needed to comment on a 17th century Indian ruler. Whats the obssession?

Mani Aiyar lives on Indian taxpayers money and is a Indian citizen so what Indians say about him is none of Pakistan's concern.


5. The portrait is in India, we can do whatever we want with it. Pakistan has no say there.

Pakistanis are obssessed with even a portrait in India. Thats heights.

a) Pak is illegally occupying nothing. "Azaadi" means as opposed to "Indian Occupied Kashmir" as the Kashmiri people themselves will tell you. Pak is not whining anymore then India is on CPEC and 9/11. Ask the people of the valley who the occupiers are.

b) You are not the law either. See reality, no one cares about Hafiz Saeed to much other then crying Indians. American's placed a big bounty but even then Hafiz walks freely. Time to move on, Hafiz is going nowhere. Forget about him.

c) Whatever university Quaid's portrait was in your country. I am no expert neither do I give a damn about the names of your cities. UP, MP or whatever else.

d) To get under your skin and for a reaction did Pak mention Tipu Sultan otherwise what would Arnab Goswami talk about!!? Tipu was a ruler before independence not that any Pakistani claims him so you are most welcome to him. Did any Pakistani claim that he or anyone else is "one of us"? It is Indian people who are forever raving about their Pakistani roots of how they originate from Peshawar or Lahore. The Kapoor's, Shahrukh Khan and the rest. You are all welcome to them!

e) Better that you tell that to Mani Shankar. If he makes comments in Pakistan then we have the right to respond. If you don't like it then tell him to say such things in India.

f) We could not care less about Gandhi's portrait hanging in Karachi that does no harm to us. It is Indian babies crying over Jinnah's portrait that has been hanging there since 1938! I see it is still hanging there, so much for "doing whatever we want with it". The great man continues to haunt you even from his grave, that is what I call obsession!

 

[waqar goraya]

So basically Kashmir separatism is about muslims of the valley wanting to separate and not all Kashmiris. Good that the facade of freedom movement has been abandoned by the real issue, religious extremism.

What has BJP RSS got to do with it?

As far as i know around 95 percent of Kashmir valley population is Muslim, who believe that their religion, culture and geography is distinct from Indian federation, thus with this separate identity they want to be free from Indian occupation. Kashmir freedom movement is based upon this identity where religious norms have a significant portion, no denying that.

You wrote that religion and politics were two different things, i gave you example of RSS/BJP that how many times religion plays a major part in politics. Being their supporter i thought you would easily get my point but to no avail.

 

[srh]

India should have tried to win the hearts of Kashmiris right from the beginning in 1948. But India treated them really bad and now Kashmiris just want freedom.

 

[cricketjoshila]

As far as i know around 95 percent of Kashmir valley population is Muslim, who believe that their religion, culture and geography is distinct from Indian federation, thus with this separate identity they want to be free from Indian occupation. Kashmir freedom movement is based upon this identity where religious norms have a significant portion, no denying that.

You wrote that religion and politics were two different things, i gave you example of RSS/BJP that how many times religion plays a major part in politics. Being their supporter i thought you would easily get my point but to no avail.

Kashmir is not only valley. 35% of Kashmiri population is Non muslim and this doesnot include around 200k Pandits who have left.They want nothing to do with Pakistan or the separatists.

Kashmir Valley is only 16% of total area. So only this 16% wants freedom?

This is a religiou terrorism issue where people following one religion want to dominate the entire politics and to further strenthen it they want to separate so that around 35% of the population can be treated in the way they treated the pandits.

Bjp or RSS doesnot fight for any separatism nor are they banned around the world as terrorists.

 

[cricketjoshila]

India should have tried to win the hearts of Kashmiris right from the beginning in 1948. But India treated them really bad and now Kashmiris just want freedom.

Which Kashmiris? The non muslims have nothing to do with any separatist movement. They are 35% plus of the population.

 

[waqar goraya]

Kashmir is not only valley. 35% of Kashmiri population is Non muslim and this doesnot include around 200k Pandits who have left.They want nothing to do with Pakistan or the separatists.

Kashmir Valley is only 16% of total area. So only this 16% wants freedom?

This is a religiou terrorism issue where people following one religion want to dominate the entire politics and to further strenthen it they want to separate so that around 35% of the population can be treated in the way they treated the pandits.

Bjp or RSS doesnot fight for any separatism nor are they banned around the world as terrorists.

Those non Muslims will also have a right to vote for their self determination, they mainly reside in Jammu and they could stay with India or if they wish in an independent Kashmir. In a democratic process they will have to ultimately go with the wishes of the clear majority.

The point i was making that religion has been an important part of politics. Glad that you have accepted that. RSS/BJP does rely on religion for their politics. We know what adherents of this ideology did in desecration of Babri mosque, what they did in Gujarat, and what are they doing in occupied Kashmir.

 

[waqar goraya]

35 percent of the population resides in a separate region. Their wishes of their remaining with India should also be respected if they want to be treated in a different way, as a separate identity. As should the aspirations of other 65 percent be respected.

 

[Swashbuckler]

35 percent of the population resides in a separate region. Their wishes of their remaining with India should also be respected if they want to be treated in a different way, as a separate identity. As should the aspirations of other 65 percent be respected.

I agree with you that the Kashmir valley (95% Muslims) whose inhabitants have been fighting for azadi must be given independence by Indian government. But another Pakistani poster here said that entire state of JK as well as Pakistan region (Azad Kashmir, Gilgit Baltistan) and China region (Aksai Chin, Trans Karakoram Tract) all need to go to vote. What do you think of that? Do you think it is practical or even necessary because only Indian occupied Kashmir is the disturbed region? If hypothetically Azad Kashmi/Gilgit also wants to join the newly formed independent country will Pakistan be ok with it. I don't think China will ever agree with such a vote because they are very particular about their territories (numerous examples).

 

[waqar goraya]

I agree with you that the Kashmir valley (95% Muslims) whose inhabitants have been fighting for azadi must be given independence by Indian government. But another Pakistani poster here said that entire state of JK as well as Pakistan region (Azad Kashmir, Gilgit Baltistan) and China region (Aksai Chin, Trans Karakoram Tract) all need to go to vote. What do you think of that? Do you think it is practical or even necessary because only Indian occupied Kashmir is the disturbed region? If hypothetically Azad Kashmi/Gilgit also wants to join the newly formed independent country will Pakistan be ok with it. I don't think China will ever agree with such a vote because they are very particular about their territories (numerous examples).

In an ideal scenario that is what should be done. But that looks unrealistic at this point of time. Of course China won't like that. But Pakistan's stated policy regarding Pakistani Kashmir is that Kashmir is an unfinished agenda of partition. And the whole territory including Indian Kashmir is still to be decided according to the wishes of Kashmiris.

At the moment the issue is that people in Kashmir don't want to be a part of India, if that is realized by India and leads to genuine effort to solve this then ultimately Kashmiris should have the final say in it.

Nevertheless, I was merely pointing to Joshila shb that religion has been an important element of politics. You can't just brush aside Kashmiri feelings because they associate themselves to a certain religion and culture. It is right of the people on which identity they want to be recognized, language, geography or religion.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Those non Muslims will also have a right to vote for their self determination, they mainly reside in Jammu and they could stay with India or if they wish in an independent Kashmir. In a democratic process they will have to ultimately go with the wishes of the clear majority.

The point i was making that religion has been an important part of politics. Glad that you have accepted that. RSS/BJP does rely on religion for their politics. We know what adherents of this ideology did in desecration of Babri mosque, what they did in Gujarat, and what are they doing in occupied Kashmir.

In British India, partition happened because a minority wanted to separate from the majority. That was granted. The places where minorities were dominant were given to them. No one took the view of the clear majority who were non muslims.

Why not follow the same principle here? If valley doesnot want to stay with India they can take the 16% of the land and separate. The minority who dominate Jammu and Leh will keep their land.

Babri Masjid issue predates BJP.

Gujarat riots were a reaction to Godhra massacre, where extremist muslims killed 63 hindus thinking they can scare the hindus. Are you saying that Bjp asked the muslims to burn and kill 63 hindus?

What are they doing in J and K?

 

[srh]

Which Kashmiris? The non muslims have nothing to do with any separatist movement. They are 35% plus of the population.

All Kashmiris want freedom irrespective of their religion because of how India has treated them. I refused to believe that Hindu Kashmiris are happy that Muslim Kashmiris are suffering. Hindu Kashmiris are not cruel and humanity is not dead among them as you implied.

 

[cricketjoshila]

All Kashmiris want freedom irrespective of their religion because of how India has treated them. I refused to believe that Hindu Kashmiris are happy that Muslim Kashmiris are suffering. Hindu Kashmiris are not cruel and humanity is not dead among them as you implied.

You can refuse to believe will not change the truth.

The non muslim kashmiris have seen thr trailer of what will happen to them if Kashmir separates from India. They know what happened to Pandits in the valley awaits them if J and K separates from India.

 

[troodon]

So you are going to continue killing us just because your temples are on OUR land? We dont want your reservations or your sham democracy where puppets are installed. Even then less than 2% people come out to vote in your elections.

Do you not see that we arent you and you arent us? We are different and separate from you in every way be it religion, ethnicity or even geography. We Dont want you. Its our land, not yours. Stop killing us for it.

Typical.

If you guys did not convert to Islam, you would never want independence.

This is a religiously motivated separatist movement which will never be allowed by India. International community also will never support it. If Kashmir ever separates from India, it means, no country would allow Islam to become majority in any part of their country.

A Punjabi has nothing to do with a Telugu or Tamil or Malayali. Yet we are all Indians and live together. Same is with Kashmir.

Reality is, a Muslim majority Kashmir will not want to be in Hindu majority India. Brainwashed by religion. Nothing else.

 

[troodon]

All Kashmiris want freedom irrespective of their religion because of how India has treated them. I refused to believe that Hindu Kashmiris are happy that Muslim Kashmiris are suffering. Hindu Kashmiris are not cruel and humanity is not dead among them as you implied.

LOL!

We all saw what happened to Hindu Kashmiris when they were driven out by threats and bullets. So please save us from your lecture.

 

[troodon]

Flood Kashmir with UP/Biharis and the separatist movement will die down in a decade.

Why waste the resources when the solution has been already practically implemented by China.

Kashmir is not a heavily populated state anyway. Mobilize 5% of UP population and see the freedom movement die down.

If India truely believes Kahsmir is its integral part, then allow rest of India to settle down there. Open industries and give jobs to both locals and non-locals.

People to people interaction will destroy the motives of separatists. If we keep putting soldiers there, the separatists have more ammunition to cry and throw stones at the army.

 

[waqar goraya]

In British India, partition happened because a minority wanted to separate from the majority. That was granted. The places where minorities were dominant were given to them. No one took the view of the clear majority who were non muslims.

Why not follow the same principle here? If valley doesnot want to stay with India they can take the 16% of the land and separate. The minority who dominate Jammu and Leh will keep their land.

Babri Masjid issue predates BJP.

Gujarat riots were a reaction to Godhra massacre, where extremist muslims killed 63 hindus thinking they can scare the hindus. Are you saying that Bjp asked the muslims to burn and kill 63 hindus?

What are they doing in J and K?

As you take the logic back to British India then according to that same principle the state of Jammu and Kashmir , including Pakistani Kashmir , would make the decision on the whole and Hindus could migrate to India.

What kind of stupid justification is this? This collective punishment to Muslims in response to actions of others is lamentable. When a Muslim is lynched by cow vigilantes , many times when he has nothing to do with that should other hindus be lynched for their crime?

We have had this Kashmir discussion many times before. My post only intended to clarify that religion can be a part of politics , has always been part of politics.
Otherwise, any final outcome of Kashmir dispute should be made according to Kashmiri wishes.

They are terrorizing Kashmiris. After RSS backed Modi came he tried to abolish article 370 and vowed to deal with Kashmir with an iron hand which has only worsened the situation.

 

[El Generico]

In British India, partition happened because a minority wanted to separate from the majority. That was granted. The places where minorities were dominant were given to them. No one took the view of the clear majority who were non muslims.

Why not follow the same principle here? If valley doesnot want to stay with India they can take the 16% of the land and separate. The minority who dominate Jammu and Leh will keep their land.

Babri Masjid issue predates BJP.

Gujarat riots were a reaction to Godhra massacre, where extremist muslims killed 63 hindus thinking they can scare the hindus. Are you saying that Bjp asked the muslims to burn and kill 63 hindus?

What are they doing in J and K?

What kind of twisted logic is this? It seems like you are flat out justifying innocent Muslims being killed because some Muslims in some other part of the country killed people, Most extremists use the same vile and twisted logic that you use to justify their crimes.
No person /groups blame themselves, everyone claims that they are just merely reacting.

 

[Greenstorm]

Flood Kashmir with UP/Biharis and the separatist movement will die down in a decade.

Why waste the resources when the solution has been already practically implemented by China.

Kashmir is not a heavily populated state anyway. Mobilize 5% of UP population and see the freedom movement die down.

If India truely believes Kahsmir is its integral part, then allow rest of India to settle down there. Open industries and give jobs to both locals and non-locals.

People to people interaction will destroy the motives of separatists. If we keep putting soldiers there, the separatists have more ammunition to cry and throw stones at the army.

It is unfortunate that Kashmiris have to face such kind of mindset. Hopefully, one day sanity will prevail and Kashmiris will get the right to self determination.

 

[JaDed]

It is unfortunate that Kashmiris have to face such kind of mindset. Hopefully, one day sanity will prevail and Kashmiris will get the right to self determination.

What's the criteria for self determination?On what basis should a town/city/region/village be given the same?

Just a general question.

 

[cricketjoshila]

As you take the logic back to British India then according to that same principle the state of Jammu and Kashmir , including Pakistani Kashmir , would make the decision on the whole and Hindus could migrate to India.

What kind of stupid justification is this? This collective punishment to Muslims in response to actions of others is lamentable. When a Muslim is lynched by cow vigilantes , many times when he has nothing to do with that should other hindus be lynched for their crime?

We have had this Kashmir discussion many times before. My post only intended to clarify that religion can be a part of politics , has always been part of politics.
Otherwise, any final outcome of Kashmir dispute should be made according to Kashmiri wishes.

They are terrorizing Kashmiris. After RSS backed Modi came he tried to abolish article 370 and vowed to deal with Kashmir with an iron hand which has only worsened the situation.

J and K was not part of British India but a separate sovereign state.

In partition in 1947 only muslim majority areas were made Pakistan. So muslim majority valley only can go to Pakistan. Non muslim majority Jammu and Leh stays with India.

There was a riot. One group initiated other group retaliated and then it continued in the same vein. Where does BJP come here?

Article 370 will be abolished in future. Separatism and Terrorism are dealt with an iron hand every where.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What kind of twisted logic is this? It seems like you are flat out justifying innocent Muslims being killed because some Muslims in some other part of the country killed people, Most extremists use the same vile and twisted logic that you use to justify their crimes.
No person /groups blame themselves, everyone claims that they are just merely reacting.

Do you even know where Godhra is? Go read geography and how the entire riots started.

 

[IMMY69]

Israel also uses the terrorist line.
It’s the terrorists who fuel the people to carry out protests and pelt stones.

Let’s just ignore the fact that these people can actually think for themselves and their acts are out of desperation.

 

[waqar goraya]

J and K was not part of British India but a separate sovereign state.

In partition in 1947 only muslim majority areas were made Pakistan. So muslim majority valley only can go to Pakistan. Non muslim majority Jammu and Leh stays with India.

There was a riot. One group initiated other group retaliated and then it continued in the same vein. Where does BJP come here?

Article 370 will be abolished in future. Separatism and Terrorism are dealt with an iron hand every where.

Around 69 percent of the population in Indian Kashmir is Muslim. That's excluding Pakistani part of it. The whole area is a disputed territory, so the whole area collectively should decide.
Besides, Leh is a Muslim majority area with around 50 percent Muslims, 40 percent Buddhists. And may be for the sake of solution Jammu can be divided into two parts like Punjab was divided.

BJP comes with Modi's indifference towards Muslims during those riots. The majority of losses were incurred by Muslims. He in his interviews has also given apologetic arguments in his defense.

Civilized nations are beginning to recognize peaceful idea of separatism as shown by British Scot referendum. Nevertheless, Kashmir was never part of India. Its disputed nature is recognized by the world.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Around 69 percent of the population in Indian Kashmir is Muslim. That's excluding Pakistani part of it. The whole area is a disputed territory, so the whole area collectively should decide.
Besides, Leh is a Muslim majority area with around 50 percent Muslims, 40 percent Buddhists. And may be for the sake of solution Jammu can be divided into two parts like Punjab was divided.

BJP comes with Modi's indifference towards Muslims during those riots. The majority of losses were incurred by Muslims. He in his interviews has also given apologetic arguments in his defense.

Civilized nations are beginning to recognize peaceful idea of separatism as shown by British Scot referendum. Nevertheless, Kashmir was never part of India. Its disputed nature is recognized by the world.

Why whole collective state? If partition has to happen then Valley muslims can take the valley area and be free or join Pakistan.

Neither Leh nor Jammu has asked for any freedom. Just for sake of valley muslims why will these people be disturbed? In the Ladakh region muslim population is 45% approximately. So the only region of Muslim majority is Valley.

All things cannot be divided as per the convenience of the valley muslims. They have an issue. They want to leave ok. Dont disturb the people of Jammu and Ladakh.

Nothing was proved againist Modi in the riots. Ofcourse any man will be apologetic if a riot took place under his govt. He is not a congress dynast like Rajiv Gandhi.

Did the scots took up arms? Did they kill people who were of another religion to obtain a religious dominance?

J and K will remain a part of India as it is today. No one in the world is interested in it and recognises it as a religious extremism and terrorism issue.

 

[troodon]

It is unfortunate that Kashmiris have to face such kind of mindset. Hopefully, one day sanity will prevail and Kashmiris will get the right to self determination.

What mindset?

Kashmir is part of India and any Indian should be allowed to settle there.

You pack a bunch of people who are brainwashed into US vs Them rhetoric, they will never be part of India.

Only solution is allow rest of India to settle there. We have enough people to move to Kashmir.

A Telugu person can settle in Punjab. A Punjabi can settle in Tamilnadu. An Assamese person can settle in Karnataka. So why not a Telugu or Tamil or UP or Bihari settle in Kashmir?

 

[waqar goraya]

Why whole collective state? If partition has to happen then Valley muslims can take the valley area and be free or join Pakistan.

Neither Leh nor Jammu has asked for any freedom. Just for sake of valley muslims why will these people be disturbed? In the Ladakh region muslim population is 45% approximately. So the only region of Muslim majority is Valley.

All things cannot be divided as per the convenience of the valley muslims. They have an issue. They want to leave ok. Dont disturb the people of Jammu and Ladakh.

Nothing was proved againist Modi in the riots. Ofcourse any man will be apologetic if a riot took place under his govt. He is not a congress dynast like Rajiv Gandhi.

Did the scots took up arms? Did they kill people who were of another religion to obtain a religious dominance?

J and K will remain a part of India as it is today. No one in the world is interested in it and recognises it as a religious extremism and terrorism issue.

45 or 47, it is still the majority in Leh region.

There are media reports that BJP supporters and leaders were actively involved in violence and the administration turned a blind eye to it. The circumstantial evidence, majority of Muslim deaths, Modi's apologetic behavior towards rioters, criticism on that trial all point towards BJP hand. Modi's entry to US was blocked for a considerable period of time for that reason.

Kashmiris for the most part of their history have been peaceful but Indian policy made some of them violent. Peaceful Kashmiris could not convince India either that it should allow these people the right to self determination. Nevertheless, fighting for your people and land is a heroic thing as was the fight against the British.

The world sees the fighters as separatists. Only If the Kashmiris consider themselves Indian, otherwise you are nothing more than an occupying force.

 

[Adijazz1706]

What mindset?

Kashmir is part of India and any Indian should be allowed to settle there.

You pack a bunch of people who are brainwashed into US vs Them rhetoric, they will never be part of India.

Only solution is allow rest of India to settle there. We have enough people to move to Kashmir.

A Telugu person can settle in Punjab. A Punjabi can settle in Tamilnadu. An Assamese person can settle in Karnataka. So why not a Telugu or Tamil or UP or Bihari settle in Kashmir?

Article 35A and 370 should be enough reading for you to understand

 

[cricketjoshila]

45 or 47, it is still the majority in Leh region.

There are media reports that BJP supporters and leaders were actively involved in violence and the administration turned a blind eye to it. The circumstantial evidence, majority of Muslim deaths, Modi's apologetic behavior towards rioters, criticism on that trial all point towards BJP hand. Modi's entry to US was blocked for a considerable period of time for that reason.

Kashmiris for the most part of their history have been peaceful but Indian policy made some of them violent. Peaceful Kashmiris could not convince India either that it should allow these people the right to self determination. Nevertheless, fighting for your people and land is a heroic thing as was the fight against the British.

The world sees the fighters as separatists. Only If the Kashmiris consider themselves Indian, otherwise you are nothing more than an occupying force.

How is 45% muslim is equal to Majority in Leh? Rest 55% are non muslims. And Leh have never had separatist tendencies.

Media doesnot determine guilt, court does. Media has its bias and thats evident.Else Media had Hiliary winning, but Trump won. Modi was once an accused hence was denied visa, he was exonerated and got Visa.

Peaceful Kashmiris killed Pandits and drove them out of the valley. What is this heroic fight in which you kill people because they are from another religion? What is this freedom struggle where 35 to 40% of the population is againist it? Nice try though, equating a religious extremist movement with a freedom struggle.

Kashmiri terrorists are considered, terrorists. All most all of the armed groups are banned by majority of the countries.

The non muslims and the muslims of Leh dont seem to have any problem calling themselves Indians.Pakistan cant and wont dictate the narrative on Kashmir.

 

[waqar goraya]

How is 45% muslim is equal to Majority in Leh? Rest 55% are non muslims. And Leh have never had separatist tendencies.

Media doesnot determine guilt, court does. Media has its bias and thats evident.Else Media had Hiliary winning, but Trump won. Modi was once an accused hence was denied visa, he was exonerated and got Visa.

Peaceful Kashmiris killed Pandits and drove them out of the valley. What is this heroic fight in which you kill people because they are from another religion? What is this freedom struggle where 35 to 40% of the population is againist it? Nice try though, equating a religious extremist movement with a freedom struggle.

Kashmiri terrorists are considered, terrorists. All most all of the armed groups are banned by majority of the countries.

The non muslims and the muslims of Leh dont seem to have any problem calling themselves Indians.Pakistan cant and wont dictate the narrative on Kashmir.

Muslims are majority in Leh. Not absolute majority but they are greater in numbers than any other group. Nevertheless, the overall Muslim population in Kashmir is around 69 percent.

Modi was a strongman, had been that state's ruler for a long time, had a lot of political, administrative clout. Court has to rely on hard evidence and witnesses. Against Modi's might it was just not possible.

Well, if only 35% is against freedom, then a clear majority of 65 percent wants freedom from Indian occupation. And that is according to your statistics. According to Indian sources in total 219 pundits were killed where as Kashmiri Muslims have been killed in far greater numbers. And what has Indian government done to relocate those pundits? This thing has only become a propaganda.

No, the international media mostly refers to them as separatists. Today's heroes can be tomorrow's villains and vice versa. We have seen the history.

A vast majority of people in the state of Kashmir don't want to live with India. I agree neither Pakistan nor India should dictate the narrative on Kashmir. It is for the Kashmiris to decide.