New message claiming to be from Masood Azhar claims Indian jets missed their target

[Hermoine Green]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">New message claiming to be from Masood Azhar claims Indian jets missed their target. <br><br>The message is being circulated by pro-JeM channels but remains unverified. <a href="https://t.co/iynrLhNERU">https://t.co/iynrLhNERU</a></p>— F. Jeffery 👁 (@Natsecjeff) <a href="https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1102245400067665920?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Translation: “May Allah bless you with faith and protect you from disunion. The difference between a believer and a hypocrite becomes evident in the times of hardship. The hypocrite only worries about his own self, looks upon everyone else for help but Allah.” - <a href="https://twitter.com/KashmirIntel?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@KashmirIntel</a> <a href="https://t.co/ezMpglm2mp">pic.twitter.com/ezMpglm2mp</a></p>— F. Jeffery 👁 (@Natsecjeff) <a href="https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1102246103901040641?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“He would look upon America, Russia and India for help but won’t remember that Allah is there and HE is capable of doing everything. Allah sent glad tidings to the believers.” via <a href="https://twitter.com/KashmirIntel?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@KashmirIntel</a> <a href="https://t.co/DpDpA4NmaH">pic.twitter.com/DpDpA4NmaH</a></p>— F. Jeffery 👁 (@Natsecjeff) <a href="https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1102246880275320838?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"Indian planes brought Israeli guided missiles. But Allah's angels threw those missiles far away and protected the students of Quran." <a href="https://t.co/LfyLUZmd6y">pic.twitter.com/LfyLUZmd6y</a></p>— F. Jeffery 👁 (@Natsecjeff) <a href="https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1102248281743216641?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"Allah ruined the pride of Indians and destroyed their jets. But the government of Pakistan followed in the footsteps of Pervez Musharraf. It released the Indian pilot and is now planning to ban, arrest and close seminaries of Ahl-e-Iman." <a href="https://t.co/0zgRD2OzKS">pic.twitter.com/0zgRD2OzKS</a></p>— F. Jeffery 👁 (@Natsecjeff) <a href="https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1102249169421590530?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In the end of the message, which is alleged to be by Masood Azhar, he calls on his followers to be prepared for migration, and that JeM members can be called at the HQ or the 'war front' any moment. <a href="https://t.co/prMHvof5Al">pic.twitter.com/prMHvof5Al</a></p>— F. Jeffery 👁 (@Natsecjeff) <a href="https://twitter.com/Natsecjeff/status/1102249886081302528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote>
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[rhony]

This is embarrassing to Pakistan if genuine. If it's not, it's Indian propaganda undermining Imran.

 

[slipcatch]

This is embarrassing to Pakistan if genuine. If it's not, it's Indian propaganda undermining Imran.

No! It isn’t.

Pakistan from the beginning in the conflict maintained that they will go after them if actionable evidence is provided.

India chose to attack first then provided dossier.

Had India provided dossier and Pak had not taken any action then it would have been embarrassing for Pak.

This organization is also threatening Pak government and army.

 

[rhony]

No! It isn’t.

Pakistan from the beginning in the conflict maintained that they will go after them if actionable evidence is provided.

India chose to attack first then provided dossier.

Had India provided dossier and Pak had not taken any action then it would have been embarrassing for Pak.

This organization is also threatening Pak government and army.

If the organization is threatening to Pakistan, why do you need evidence from India to dismantle it.
See, the claim from GOP was he was already dismantled and on his death bed and is just a figure head these days. If this letter is genuine, it shows poorly on GOP. If it's not genuine, it's propaganda trying to undermine what GOP said

 

[slipcatch]

If the organization is threatening to Pakistan, why do you need evidence from India to dismantle it.
See, the claim from GOP was he was already dismantled and on his death bed and is just a figure head these days. If this letter is genuine, it shows poorly on GOP. If it's not genuine, it's propaganda trying to undermine what GOP said

We don’t.

It doesn’t happen over night.

Sometimes containment is enough.

Personally I would prefer eliminating.

 

[rhony]

We don’t.

It doesn’t happen over night.

Sometimes containment is enough.

Personally I would prefer eliminating.

Fair enough. Either way, everyone is aligning to the same cause to disrupt terror albeit slowly.

 

[shah_1]

These organizationS need to be elimnated

RAW is extremly smart not use its people or soil for proxy wars, 3rd party is better though its more expensive. We can't have such assets anymore IN Pakistan.

 

[slipcatch]

Fair enough. Either way, everyone is aligning to the same cause to disrupt terror albeit slowly.

That’s the hope, dismantling/eliminating won’t happen without India’s help, hence dialogues on every issue is the only way for peace in the region.

 

[PakLFC]

They missed because their was nothing to hit! Pak has always accepted that India crossed the LOC then dropped bombs on nothing so whats changed and what is embarrassing about it?

 

[rhony]

They missed because their was nothing to hit! Pak has always accepted that India crossed the LOC then dropped bombs on nothing so whats changed and what is embarrassing about it?

If this letter is genuine, it undermines GOP's claim that there are no terror cells in Pak. Azhar's claiming India missed the real target.

Imran proved that civilian government is the authority by being the sole voice in this whole saga. The army was in the background. Now this letter, again if genuine is undermining him by providing an alternate voice. There should be no platform for extremists.

 

[PakLFC]

If this letter is genuine, it undermines GOP's claim that there are no terror cells in Pak. Azhar's claiming India missed the real target.

Imran proved that civilian government is the authority by being the sole voice in this whole saga. The army was in the background. Now this letter, again if genuine is undermining him by providing an alternate voice. There should be no platform for extremists.

I do not think the letter is genuine. I am not fan of Azhar but have not heard him preach hate against India anywhere. Of course the likes of he and Hafiz Saeed support Kashmiris that is not terrorism at all, they are standing up for justice. Once again where have Azhar or Hafiz called for killing innocent Indian people?

 

[rhony]

I do not think the letter is genuine. I am not fan of Azhar but have not heard him preach hate against India anywhere. Of course the likes of he and Hafiz Saeed support Kashmiris that is not terrorism at all, they are standing up for justice. Once again where have Azhar or Hafiz called for killing innocent Indian people?

Hafiz was the Mastermind of 26/11 Mumbai attacks. It was on innocent civilians.

 

[PakLFC]

Hafiz was the Mastermind of 26/11 Mumbai attacks. It was on innocent civilians.

No he wasn't that at all. Hemant Karkare was about to reveal the truth which is why Hindu extremists who were behind 26/11 killed him. Muslim's don't call for "bhagwan" when about to die. Now don't say something stupid like Hafiz hired a Hindu for the 26/11 attacks. It is the likes of Adityanath, Doval and so many more extreme Hindu's who keep spewing hate against Pak. These are the ones who have caused so much terrorism in Pak over the years. Ajit Doval more or less even admitted it.

 

[rhony]

No he wasn't that at all. Hemant Karkare was about to reveal the truth which is why Hindu extremists who were behind 26/11 killed him. Muslim's don't call for "bhagwan" when about to die. Now don't say something stupid like Hafiz hired a Hindu for the 26/11 attacks. It is the likes of Adityanath, Doval and so many more extreme Hindu's who keep spewing hate against Pak. These are the ones who have caused so much terrorism in Pak over the years. Ajit Doval more or less even admitted it.

I've followed the Headley trial here is US. Heck he lived 20 miles away from my house. Even Pak cracked down on Lashkar after that. As far as Doval, yes I've heard the speech about Balochistan and followed Kulbushan trial.

 

[Sachin136]

No he wasn't that at all. Hemant Karkare was about to reveal the truth which is why Hindu extremists who were behind 26/11 killed him. Muslim's don't call for "bhagwan" when about to die. Now don't say something stupid like Hafiz hired a Hindu for the 26/11 attacks. It is the likes of Adityanath, Doval and so many more extreme Hindu's who keep spewing hate against Pak. These are the ones who have caused so much terrorism in Pak over the years. Ajit Doval more or less even admitted it.

Please keep your conspiracy theories to yourself. If you're still in denial about who was behind 26/11, that's your problem.

 

[Sirris]

If this letter is genuine, it undermines GOP's claim that there are no terror cells in Pak. Azhar's claiming India missed the real target.

Imran proved that civilian government is the authority by being the sole voice in this whole saga. The army was in the background. Now this letter, again if genuine is undermining him by providing an alternate voice. There should be no platform for extremists.

Let's assume the message is genuine. It doesn't say the jet missed a military camp. It says the missile missed "the children learning Quran" implying it missed a madrassa. And it was already cibfirmwd after the strike that there's a small school associated with him nearby.

We already know JeM has a big madrassa in bahawalpur. Therefore a small madrassa somewhere isnt surprising. All it tells it thatoerhaos Indians wanted to below up the madrassa und the disguise of terror camp. Even then they failed.

 

[Zhasan]

The real conspiracy theory was the elite crack team of commandos hoping on a flimsy dingy across close to a thousand miles of open sea to carry out an attack.

 

[PakLFC]

Please keep your conspiracy theories to yourself. If you're still in denial about who was behind 26/11, that's your problem.

Rather the problem is yours when we have Hafiz Saeed! Well you can't tell the world whokilled Karkare and why so shut it! To Indian people everything is a conspiracy theory unless it meets your narrative. You are the most gullible people ever! https://www.standard.co.uk/news/wor...e-else-in-the-world-report-says-a4059876.html

 

[Sirris]

I do not think the letter is genuine. I am not fan of Azhar but have not heard him preach hate against India anywhere. Of course the likes of he and Hafiz Saeed support Kashmiris that is not terrorism at all, they are standing up for justice. Once again where have Azhar or Hafiz called for killing innocent Indian people?

Unlike hazeef saeed Massod Azahr has many famous Bayans calling for jihad against India from around 2000 - 2004. One only has to google them. His Jihadi Bayans used to big hype among those circles. However after 2004 there weren't many or any because of the ban by Musharraf.

I also think unlike hafeez saeed he isnt really in the good books of Isi and pak established which explains why Hafeez Saeed is able to have public appearances and give TV interview while Massod Azahr is completely invisible. It also explains his organization acting against the current stats quo and inciting big attacks in India. When was the last time Hafeez Saeed's LeT did a pathankot or pulwama type attack.

 

[PakLFC]

I've followed the Headley trial here is US. Heck he lived 20 miles away from my house. Even Pak cracked down on Lashkar after that. As far as Doval, yes I've heard the speech about Balochistan and followed Kulbushan trial.

The point is that Hafiz was not responsible for 26/11, period. You can follow whatever you like water of my back. So when you openly admit Indian terrorism in Pak don't lecture us on peace.

 

[PakLFC]

Unlike hazeef saeed Massod Azahr has many famous Bayans calling for jihad against India from around 2000 - 2004. One only has to google them. His Jihadi Bayans used to big hype among those circles. However after 2004 there weren't many or any because of the ban by Musharraf.

I also think unlike hafeez saeed he isnt really in the good books of Isi and pak established which explains why Hafeez Saeed is able to have public appearances and give TV interview while Massod Azahr is completely invisible. It also explains his organization acting against the current stats quo and inciting big attacks in India. When was the last time Hafeez Saeed's LeT did a pathankot or pulwama type attack.

The have been speaking against India for what you have been doing in Kashmir and Pakistan over the years. This is not to suggest that they support killing Indian people in general. The Pak courts have found him to be innocents that is the end of the matter. For that reason he is allowed to have rallies just like Hindutva extremists have in India speaking against Pak openly. I am struggling to make sense of your mail, what is "When was the last time Hafeez Saeed's LeT did a pathankot or pulwama type attack." supposed to mean?

 

[rhony]

The point is that Hafiz was not responsible for 26/11, period. You can follow whatever you like water of my back. So when you openly admit Indian terrorism in Pak don't lecture us on peace.

I guess Hafiz is a UN designated terrorist because he killed a a few goats and chicken. You cornered yourself in the argument by saying Hafiz didn't kill innocent civilians. Forget India, UN said it, your own govt thinks so.

As far as proxy wars or terrorism goes in Kashmir or Balochistan, yes I agree both parties are culpable and both have agreed so. Don't add Hafiz into the same discussion. He's a filthy terrorist.

 

[rhony]

Let's assume the message is genuine. It doesn't say the jet missed a military camp. It says the missile missed "the children learning Quran" implying it missed a madrassa. And it was already cibfirmwd after the strike that there's a small school associated with him nearby.

We already know JeM has a big madrassa in bahawalpur. Therefore a small madrassa somewhere isnt surprising. All it tells it thatoerhaos Indians wanted to below up the madrassa und the disguise of terror camp. Even then they failed.

Nobody believes he teaches students just Quran. He's got a lengthy rap sheet.

 

[Sirris]

Nobody believes he teaches students just Quran. He's got a lengthy rap sheet.

The madrassah in bahawalpur nor the one found in balakot showed any presence of weapons or signs of military training. His madrassah is primarily an educational institute though we might not agree with the teachings and it is better to close them down. The military camp and training is much more likey to take place in Afghanistan as JeM supports Afghan Taliban in their struggle and mist of it's Pakistani memders are found in Afghanistan than Kashmir since it easier go into Afghanistan than to cross the line of control. Thata why the armed struggle has died down in th 2000s when compared to the 90s. However there seems to he a resurgence which is a lot more indigenous than foreign when compared to the 90s.

For Indians there first focus should be why so many Kashmiri youth are finding appeal in his organization and what moved Adil the Pulwama attacker to join it a year ago. Kashmiri's are wrapping their dead in the flag of JeM the cause behind must be investigated.

India recently banned Jamat-e-Islami Jammu Kashmir. While the Indians might think it is a step to decrease militancy I woukd say it will only increase militancy. Since organization like jamat in J&K have been pushing for a non-militant and rather political approach to the local problem. Now their ban is going to help and strength the militant narrative that only armed sturggle is the true solution to their issues.

 

[PakLFC]

I guess Hafiz is a UN designated terrorist because he killed a a few goats and chicken. You cornered yourself in the argument by saying Hafiz didn't kill innocent civilians. Forget India, UN said it, your own govt thinks so.

As far as proxy wars or terrorism goes in Kashmir or Balochistan, yes I agree both parties are culpable and both have agreed so. Don't add Hafiz into the same discussion. He's a filthy terrorist.

That is the same UN who lets Indian terrorism in Kashmir go unpunished! To hell with such a hypocritical organisation, I have never respected them. What did our own govt say about Hafiz for killing innocent people that gets you so excited?. The biggest terrorist in the world is your elected PM Modi who even boasted about his crimes so mentally sick is he! What is even absurd is your country makes him PM!! What I mean is as India is accusing Hafiz of killing innocents which he has not done. Don't use UN as a reference point with me when they have resolved no conflict ever!

 

[Sirris]

The have been speaking against India for what you have been doing in Kashmir and Pakistan over the years. This is not to suggest that they support killing Indian people in general. The Pak courts have found him to be innocents that is the end of the matter. For that reason he is allowed to have rallies just like Hindutva extremists have in India speaking against Pak openly. I am struggling to make sense of your mail, what is "When was the last time Hafeez Saeed's LeT did a pathankot or pulwama type attack." supposed to mean?

I am from a Pakistani background and did nothing in Kashmir or Pakistan.

My main intention was to correct you when you suggested Massod Azahr has never preached" hate" against India. Anyone with little knowledge about him would know that's not true. We need to be accurate with our facts if we want to get to the heart of the issue. From not preaching hate you turned it into an issue of "whether they support killing Indian people in general" which is irrelevant to the topic. India media, to put it mildly, talks down about pak army, isi and government and we as Pakistani percieve it as a hate-filled and war-mongering media even though there is little call for violence against Pakistani civilians.

First you have to acknowledge that your original assessment wasn't true and Massod Azahr has been preaching "hate" against India. At least that's how most neutral people would categorize his speeches. Let me give you a couple of slogans that were and are used during their programs:

"India ki barbadi tak, jang rahegi jang rahegi."
"India teri moot ai, jaish ai jaish ai."

That's a bit more than "speaking against India" and I can understand why Indians would see that as preaching hate. These are just slogans his speeches go way beyond this. Though I agree there is little about killing innocent Indian civilians but just like we dont like our army getting attacked I am sure Indians don't too either. Or would say you would be willing to support ir atleast accept the existence of TTP if all there targets were purely military establishments.

The thing is you either fully own Massod Azahr and his approach or you completely disown it. There isn't two ways about it and nearly impossible to make him appear like just an average Pakistani citizen.

Regarding Hafeez Saeed I was trying to point out how he isnt the same as Massod Azahr. Masood Azahr and his organization don't seem to be fully under pak control and like to act autonomously from time to time, hence the recent headache for ISI. While Hafeez Saeed is a 100% pawn of Pakistani establishment, hence the lack of large scale attacks in India attributed to his organization. I don't think he was directly behind Mumbai attacks. Though some elments within his organization might have been.

It is necessary to differentiate between the two to understand what kind problem we are dealing with. ISI has been reluctant to fully distort Massod Azahr due to his disobedience because he has a significant street power and support due to the overall support Pakistani have for Kashmir. It might cause more headache for ISI to completely abandon him hence the current policy of keeping his movements and ressources limited.

 

[UmarMalik]

Nobody believes he teaches students just Quran. He's got a lengthy rap sheet.

Likewise, nobody believes Indian soldiers protect Kashmiris. Their track record is pretty bad. Is it fair to assume they’re all terrorists too? Or should you we analyze them individually and not label them all as terrorists just because there are few bad ones out there?

 

[PakLFC]

I am from a Pakistani background and did nothing in Kashmir or Pakistan.

My main intention was to correct you when you suggested Massod Azahr has never preached" hate" against India. Anyone with little knowledge about him would know that's not true. We need to be accurate with our facts if we want to get to the heart of the issue. From not preaching hate you turned it into an issue of "whether they support killing Indian people in general" which is irrelevant to the topic. India media, to put it mildly, talks down about pak army, isi and government and we as Pakistani percieve it as a hate-filled and war-mongering media even though there is little call for violence against Pakistani civilians.

First you have to acknowledge that your original assessment wasn't true and Massod Azahr has been preaching "hate" against India. At least that's how most neutral people would categorize his speeches. Let me give you a couple of slogans that were and are used during their programs:

"India ki barbadi tak, jang rahegi jang rahegi."
"India teri moot ai, jaish ai jaish ai."

That's a bit more than "speaking against India" and I can understand why Indians would see that as preaching hate. These are just slogans his speeches go way beyond this. Though I agree there is little about killing innocent Indian civilians but just like we dont like our army getting attacked I am sure Indians don't too either. Or would say you would be willing to support ir atleast accept the existence of TTP if all there targets were purely military establishments.

The thing is you either fully own Massod Azahr and his approach or you completely disown it. There isn't two ways about it and nearly impossible to make him appear like just an average Pakistani citizen.

Regarding Hafeez Saeed I was trying to point out how he isnt the same as Massod Azahr. Masood Azahr and his organization don't seem to be fully under pak control and like to act autonomously from time to time, hence the recent headache for ISI. While Hafeez Saeed is a 100% pawn of Pakistani establishment, hence the lack of large scale attacks in India attributed to his organization. I don't think he was directly behind Mumbai attacks. Though some elments within his organization might have been.

It is necessary to differentiate between the two to understand what kind problem we are dealing with. ISI has been reluctant to fully distort Massod Azahr due to his disobedience because he has a significant street power and support due to the overall support Pakistani have for Kashmir. It might cause more headache for ISI to completely abandon him hence the current policy of keeping his movements and ressources limited.

Little call for violence against Pak civilians?? You need a reality check here if you really believe this. When calling for war or breaking Pak in to parts it means violence by default. There will obviously be casualties if war were to occur. Stop it!

I think Azhar's comments are understandable and rather liberal compared to what Indian Hindu fascists and so called TV anchors say about Pak. I am not one to believe in "eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" nuisance. Azhar's comments are to be seen in the Kashmir context and what is happening there. It is rich coming from India when they are openly killing Kashmiris and have been responsible for causing terrorism in Pakistan over the past 20 years. So you want Pakistanis to remain silent on the face of Indian aggression, no chance! Never gonna happen as much as I am not fan of Azhar or Hafiz.

Remember, India crossed the LOC then we took action against them the next day. Had they not done so and accepted IK's offer for talks we would not have destroyed their jet. Then after that they send some dossier when they could have done it days before avoiding the whole scenario. Indian Hindu fascists like Adityanath and Uma Bharti have been preaching hate against Pak long before I even knew who Azhar or Hafiz Saeed were! You will need to tell me where these TTP people are with concrete evidence if you want to be taken seriously.

Once again I am no fan of Hafiz either who India is obsessed with. Part of the Azhar group or not he has not called for the destruction of India rather speaks about IOK only. Sorry but your attempts to be impartial don't impress me one bit here when India is the one terrorising the Kashmiris, instigating hostilities and sending terrorists like Yadav to us. No he had nothing to do with 26/11 whatsoever as far as I know. India needs to understand that every action has a reaction, these Azhar and Hafiz type have a field day in recruiting young men in the name of what is happening in IOK. If India were to stop that and give Kashmiris justice all of their recruitment would come to a standstill.

Look! ISI is doing exactly what other such organisations do to gain any advantage. The bottom line is that until their is injustice naive young men will always be easy pickings for any group of religious fundo's. The same holds true with Hindu's in India who are told to join such groups if they want to stop another Muslim invasion. Azhar and Hafiz are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Sirris]

Little call for violence against Pak civilians?? You need a reality check here if you really believe this. When calling for war or breaking Pak in to parts it means violence by default. There will obviously be casualties if war were to occur. Stop it!

I think Azhar's comments are understandable and rather liberal compared to what Indian Hindu fascists and so called TV anchors say about Pak. I am not one to believe in "eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" nuisance. Azhar's comments are to be seen in the Kashmir context and what is happening there. It is rich coming from India when they are openly killing Kashmiris and have been responsible for causing terrorism in Pakistan over the past 20 years. So you want Pakistanis to remain silent on the face of Indian aggression, no chance! Never gonna happen as much as I am not fan of Azhar or Hafiz.

Remember, India crossed the LOC then we took action against them the next day. Had they not done so and accepted IK's offer for talks we would not have destroyed their jet. Then after that they send some dossier when they could have done it days before avoiding the whole scenario. Indian Hindu fascists like Adityanath and Uma Bharti have been preaching hate against Pak long before I even knew who Azhar or Hafiz Saeed were! You will need to tell me where these TTP people are with concrete evidence if you want to be taken seriously.

Once again I am no fan of Hafiz either who India is obsessed with. Part of the Azhar group or not he has not called for the destruction of India rather speaks about IOK only. Sorry but your attempts to be impartial don't impress me one bit here when India is the one terrorising the Kashmiris, instigating hostilities and sending terrorists like Yadav to us. No he had nothing to do with 26/11 whatsoever as far as I know. India needs to understand that every action has a reaction, these Azhar and Hafiz type have a field day in recruiting young men in the name of what is happening in IOK. If India were to stop that and give Kashmiris justice all of their recruitment would come to a standstill.

Look! ISI is doing exactly what other such organisations do to gain any advantage. The bottom line is that until their is injustice naive young men will always be easy pickings for any group of religious fundo's. The same holds true with Hindu's in India who are told to join such groups if they want to stop another Muslim invasion. Azhar and Hafiz are two sides of the same coin.

Pakistan has officially declared JeM as a banned outfit since 2004, why?

In the 90s the Kashmiri militancy was the strongest it has ever been. Thousands of sincere volunteers from Pakistan would cross LoC and fight in Kashmir. It went all downhill when the Pakistani leaders decided to abandon that ship in the 2000s. Since most of the work was done under supervision of Pakistani agencies they were able to suck the momentum out of the movement and crackdown on fighters.

Which explains famous Kashmiri militant commanders like Ilyas Kashmiri who found out about the treachery and left the field and went towards Afghanistan and there are many more examples like him. The whole story shows that Pakistani intelligences are not sincere with the cause. They too are taking advantage of the opressed Kashmiri for their own self-interests. Hence why we the average Pakistani citizen need to stop supporting and justifying such hypocritical policies by the Pakistani leaders.

My goal isnt to be impartial and impress people. My goal is for Pakistan to have clear policies and commit to them. Pakistani leaders need to quit the double-games and be upfront. Why should I as a citizen be forced to rationalize all sort of two-faced activities by our officials. Currently JeM is a banned outfit in Pakistan. Therefore there should be no JeM affiliated madrassas and Masood Azahr should be in jail. The matter is straightforward and doesn't require us to play lawyer and stand up for guys like Masood Azahr and Hafeez Saeed.

Pakistani leaders should either go through with their ban on JeM and close down all the affiliated activities or they need to lift up the ban, take a stand and explain to the world why such groups aren't of "terrorist" nature.

Afghan Taliban are not officially seen as terrorists by the USA and its allies. Nor are they on the US list of banned terrorist organizations. Even though according to UN the Taliban are responsible for most civilian casualties in Afghanistan. While, as Indians always mention to strengthen their position, USA and other western officials see JeM as a terrorist organization. Even though their targets in the India for the most parts have been military personnel in and arround Indian Kashmir.

I'd like someone of knowledge, our Indian neighbors preferably since they hold USA as a final authority, to elobrate why the Afghan Taliban, who are responsible for sheltering al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, isn't considered a terrorist organization by the high officials in the west while the JeM is. Who exactly is the final authority in declaring an individual or an organization "terrorist". Hopefully this illustration helps people realize that sometimes it isn't easy to say who is and isnt a terrorist and the world powers make full use of the term for their own self-interests.

Pakistani leaders dont have the spine, guts nor is Pakistan economically stable to be able to officially stand up for an armed struggle in Kashmir. Hence our leaders and military needs to quit playing games, quit playing with the emotions of Kashmiri people and giving them false hope. They think Pakistani army will liberate them, however that's not gonna happen in next few decades. Nor is the half-hearted support to militants going to bear any worthwhile fruits. It's not about the lack of ability rather a lack of will and sincerity. The most our leaders can do is bring up the issue politically on a global scale and they should just stick with that.

Perhaps it's the false hope and premises which is keeping the Kashmiris hope alive to continue the armed resistance and our clear policy might make them reassess their goals. If still Kashmiri people want an armed struggle they need to do it independently on their own without relying and having hope from Pakistani intelligence agencies. The Kashmiris will always find sincere Muslims willing to help but state agencies can't be relied upon as history has shown and their involvement would always undermine the sacrifices and losses of the native Kashmiris.

 

[rhony]

The madrassah in bahawalpur nor the one found in balakot showed any presence of weapons or signs of military training. His madrassah is primarily an educational institute though we might not agree with the teachings and it is better to close them down. The military camp and training is much more likey to take place in Afghanistan as JeM supports Afghan Taliban in their struggle and mist of it's Pakistani memders are found in Afghanistan than Kashmir since it easier go into Afghanistan than to cross the line of control. Thata why the armed struggle has died down in th 2000s when compared to the 90s. However there seems to he a resurgence which is a lot more indigenous than foreign when compared to the 90s.

For Indians there first focus should be why so many Kashmiri youth are finding appeal in his organization and what moved Adil the Pulwama attacker to join it a year ago. Kashmiri's are wrapping their dead in the flag of JeM the cause behind must be investigated.

India recently banned Jamat-e-Islami Jammu Kashmir. While the Indians might think it is a step to decrease militancy I woukd say it will only increase militancy. Since organization like jamat in J&K have been pushing for a non-militant and rather political approach to the local problem. Now their ban is going to help and strength the militant narrative that only armed sturggle is the true solution to their issues.

Fair enough. Pakistan should give a chance for Kashmiris to get their voice out. They can't unless the narrative is changed from "Kashmiri mikitancy backed by rogue elements in Pakistan". Clean Pakistan and India will have to answer for Kashmir and they will

 

[rhony]

That is the same UN who lets Indian terrorism in Kashmir go unpunished! To hell with such a hypocritical organisation, I have never respected them. What did our own govt say about Hafiz for killing innocent people that gets you so excited?. The biggest terrorist in the world is your elected PM Modi who even boasted about his crimes so mentally sick is he! What is even absurd is your country makes him PM!! What I mean is as India is accusing Hafiz of killing innocents which he has not done. Don't use UN as a reference point with me when they have resolved no conflict ever!

Unless you and I are GOP or GOI insiders, the debate is dead. I chose a world organization as proof and u don't believe in it. We can't believe Indian or Pakistani narratives. Who's left then?

 

[PakLFC]

Pakistan has officially declared JeM as a banned outfit since 2004, why?

In the 90s the Kashmiri militancy was the strongest it has ever been. Thousands of sincere volunteers from Pakistan would cross LoC and fight in Kashmir. It went all downhill when the Pakistani leaders decided to abandon that ship in the 2000s. Since most of the work was done under supervision of Pakistani agencies they were able to suck the momentum out of the movement and crackdown on fighters.

Which explains famous Kashmiri militant commanders like Ilyas Kashmiri who found out about the treachery and left the field and went towards Afghanistan and there are many more examples like him. The whole story shows that Pakistani intelligences are not sincere with the cause. They too are taking advantage of the opressed Kashmiri for their own self-interests. Hence why we the average Pakistani citizen need to stop supporting and justifying such hypocritical policies by the Pakistani leaders.

My goal isnt to be impartial and impress people. My goal is for Pakistan to have clear policies and commit to them. Pakistani leaders need to quit the double-games and be upfront. Why should I as a citizen be forced to rationalize all sort of two-faced activities by our officials. Currently JeM is a banned outfit in Pakistan. Therefore there should be no JeM affiliated madrassas and Masood Azahr should be in jail. The matter is straightforward and doesn't require us to play lawyer and stand up for guys like Masood Azahr and Hafeez Saeed.

Pakistani leaders should either go through with their ban on JeM and close down all the affiliated activities or they need to lift up the ban, take a stand and explain to the world why such groups aren't of "terrorist" nature.

Afghan Taliban are not officially seen as terrorists by the USA and its allies. Nor are they on the US list of banned terrorist organizations. Even though according to UN the Taliban are responsible for most civilian casualties in Afghanistan. While, as Indians always mention to strengthen their position, USA and other western officials see JeM as a terrorist organization. Even though their targets in the India for the most parts have been military personnel in and arround Indian Kashmir.

I'd like someone of knowledge, our Indian neighbors preferably since they hold USA as a final authority, to elobrate why the Afghan Taliban, who are responsible for sheltering al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, isn't considered a terrorist organization by the high officials in the west while the JeM is. Who exactly is the final authority in declaring an individual or an organization "terrorist". Hopefully this illustration helps people realize that sometimes it isn't easy to say who is and isnt a terrorist and the world powers make full use of the term for their own self-interests.

Pakistani leaders dont have the spine, guts nor is Pakistan economically stable to be able to officially stand up for an armed struggle in Kashmir. Hence our leaders and military needs to quit playing games, quit playing with the emotions of Kashmiri people and giving them false hope. They think Pakistani army will liberate them, however that's not gonna happen in next few decades. Nor is the half-hearted support to militants going to bear any worthwhile fruits. It's not about the lack of ability rather a lack of will and sincerity. The most our leaders can do is bring up the issue politically on a global scale and they should just stick with that.

Perhaps it's the false hope and premises which is keeping the Kashmiris hope alive to continue the armed resistance and our clear policy might make them reassess their goals. If still Kashmiri people want an armed struggle they need to do it independently on their own without relying and having hope from Pakistani intelligence agencies. The Kashmiris will always find sincere Muslims willing to help but state agencies can't be relied upon as history has shown and their involvement would always undermine the sacrifices and losses of the native Kashmiris.

Jet etc have been declared illegal due to brainwashing the youngsters with their views which is not to suggest they support terrorism. I know Pak has and probably still does support certain activity in the valley but at the same time it would be naive to say it is not an indigenous movement now. Another thing is after 1971 when India supported the Mukhti Bani they are in no position to complain about anything Pak does. If Pak offered support to the freedom fighters it was because they were willing to receive it. It takes two hands to clap.

I do not see anything hypocritical about supporting self determination in the valley. I still don't know what treachery you are on about here? Thing is that Kashmiri people themselves are a confused lot not knowing what they want. Within their community there are so many opinions supporting all three possibility which is why there needs to be a plebiscite to settle the matter once and for all. Only problem here is that neither Pak or India is willing to consider complete independence of the valley. As I have said here many times that independence would be the best and most logical option for all of Kashmir. I am happy to let it go only if India agrees as well.

Just because you disagree with Madrassa culture does not mean they are all terrorists rather you have to accept that it is now part of our culture. It is too deeply rooted for it to be removed in a country where mainstream educational institutions are still struggling they often fill the vacuum. I am glad you have admitted to not being impartial where as I am that. We can not throw terrorist suspects in to prison just tto please other countries. We know that IK wants progress in Pak, if the said people were guilty he would have taken care of them for sure. They are not terrorists as no conclusive evidence as been provided against them. Why is Modi not a terrorist when he openly admits to the Godhra riots and India forming the Mukhti Bani?

The USA is no judge of who the terrorists are seeing what they have been doing around the world over the past 20 years. The times have changed now, Pak is no longer singing from the same hymn book at them. I don't give a damn who the USA and India consiider as terrorists neither has that anything to do with what we are talking about here! The Americans have been openly supporting the Pak taliban over the years to destabilise Pak, we have every right to support the freedom fighters who are the Afghan Taliban. If Pak's enemies are not America's problem then there's are not our concern either.

What India does is try to destabilise Pakistan as even admitted by Ajit Doval himself. To them anyone supporting independence is a terrorist from the Afghan Taliban to the Kashmiri freedom fighters and the Sikhs who want freedom. Where as when they murder innocent people that is not terrorism but justice! The Americans or the Bharatis are not the final authority on what should happen in Afghanistan rather the people of the country are. Providing terrorism from Afghanistan ceases I care little how that country is run. It is well documented that India has been using Afghanistan as a base to attack Pak over the past 20 years. You must be living in another universe if you deny this. Of course every country see's terrorism differently, welcome to the real world.

I don't think we are giving Kashmiris false hope when supporting them. It is them who need to decide what they want, Pak is simply demanding a plebiscite to end this matter once and for all. The alternative is that Indian soldiers and the people of IoK keep on killing each other which is fine be me just don't hold Pak responsible when that happens. This is something pro Indian and so called liberal Pakistanis like you ignore when talking of Kashmir. You don't want justice in the valley rather to blame Pakistan for everything that goes on there. I don't we are wise enough to realise that a country with half the military size of India can not liberate Kashmir especially when the people seem indecisive on the matter.

" Perhaps it's the false hope and premises which is keeping the Kashmiris hope alive to continue the armed resistance and our clear policy might make them reassess their goals." It confirms your hypocritical position that the Kashmiris should accept being bullied by India as their future! That they happily sing the Indian anthem to please so called Pakistanis like you as anything else is simple "false hope" as you shamelessly admit. I think they are doing a great job in their indigenous struggle despite people like you blaming Pak for everything whilst never ignoring all Indian atrocities in the region of blinding people, killings and mass rape! Now you will say the Pakistani agencies are supporting all that as well. If they want freedom then they should be given that, you go and tell that to Delhi!

 

[PakLFC]

Unless you and I are GOP or GOI insiders, the debate is dead. I chose a world organization as proof and u don't believe in it. We can't believe Indian or Pakistani narratives. Who's left then?

I do not believe in them because they are hypocrites. Am I blind or you for that matter that we can't see what is happening in IOK with all those people being killed and blinded? We both know that the very organisation you are raving about allowed the Americans to illegally invade Iraq and kill two million people under the pretence that they had weapons of mass destruction when none were found. The Kashmir dispute that they promised to resolve has not been attended to in over 70 years! As I said to hell with such an organisation! If they are so justice loving then tell them to carry out the promised plebiscite in Kashmir.

 

[rhony]

I do not believe in them because they are hypocrites. Am I blind or you for that matter that we can't see what is happening in IOK with all those people being killed and blinded? We both know that the very organisation you are raving about allowed the Americans to illegally invade Iraq and kill two million people under the pretence that they had weapons of mass destruction when none were found. The Kashmir dispute that they promised to resolve has not been attended to in over 70 years! As I said to hell with such an organisation! If they are so justice loving then tell them to carry out the promised plebiscite in Kashmir.

I'm sure.you know that the plebiscite doesn't move an inch unless Pak removes it's army and civilians from AJK and GB. But anyway, that ship has sailed decades ago

 

[PakLFC]

I'm sure.you know that the plebiscite doesn't move an inch unless Pak removes it's army and civilians from AJK and GB. But anyway, that ship has sailed decades ago

Ask the Kashmiris who say the ship s still very much standing there. It was India who took the matter to the UN, remember? Once again it does not matter coz the useless UN has never sorted out any world problem as mentioned in my previous mail. Kashmir can only be sorted by a winner takes all war.

 

[rhony]

The madrassah in bahawalpur nor the one found in balakot showed any presence of weapons or signs of military training. His madrassah is primarily an educational institute though we might not agree with the teachings and it is better to close them down. The military camp and training is much more likey to take place in Afghanistan as JeM supports Afghan Taliban in their struggle and mist of it's Pakistani memders are found in Afghanistan than Kashmir since it easier go into Afghanistan than to cross the line of control. Thata why the armed struggle has died down in th 2000s when compared to the 90s. However there seems to he a resurgence which is a lot more indigenous than foreign when compared to the 90s.

For Indians there first focus should be why so many Kashmiri youth are finding appeal in his organization and what moved Adil the Pulwama attacker to join it a year ago. Kashmiri's are wrapping their dead in the flag of JeM the cause behind must be investigated.

India recently banned Jamat-e-Islami Jammu Kashmir. While the Indians might think it is a step to decrease militancy I woukd say it will only increase militancy. Since organization like jamat in J&K have been pushing for a non-militant and rather political approach to the local problem. Now their ban is going to help and strength the militant narrative that only armed sturggle is the true solution to their issues.

Excellent post!! You pretty much nailed it. Pak needs to nail the terror outfits because the limited proxy war doesn't help anyone. Pakistanis with the perception as a sponsor of terror, Kashmiris with the false hope that can never succeed taking that path of limited armed struggle and finally Indians because of the instability in Kashmir. If there is an indegenous movement, then let India and Kashmiris handle it. If the movement is strong enough, it will be recognized as was the case with Taliban. That is why Taliban are considered an alternate political organization albeit their terror links and are still considered as somebody that will rule Afg. There lies the answer to your other question as to why Taliban is not spoken in the same vein as JEM or LET.

 

[Pete Rose]

This is the only thing matters. All the rest is spin