ODIs: Pakistan's decline in the spin department since ICC's clampdown on illegal bowling actions

[topspin]

We hear time and again, the displeasure of the Pakistan's pacers in ODIs and yes they're far from perfect especially when it comes to utilising the new ball, but in my view it's the spinners who are letting the team down. They are the liabilities in this bowling attack because they cannot contain nor able to take wickets on a consistent basis.

India on the other hand have Kuldeep running through batting line ups and Chahal at the other end to support him with his excellent defensive bowling. Never did I think, we would see the day where England's ODI spin bowling (Moeen and Rashid) would offer far more potency than a Pakistan side - brought up on slow and dry wickets and has historically produced world class spinners with Qadir, Mushtaq Ahmed, Saqlain, Afridi et al.

Ever since ICC clamped down on suspect bowling actions, Pakistan have not found viable replacements to Ajmal and Hafeez (with his old bowling action). Shadab's ODI economy of 4.80 has been minimised with minnow bashing and bowling in the UAE. He is not an all rounder and does not deserve a place in the XI as a specialist spinner. His bowling hasn't improved in 50 over cricket since his debut, in fact his control of his leg breaks has got far worse. Unlike Rashid and Kuldeep his googly isn't deceiving batsmen.

Imad deserves a spot in the XI for his lower order hitting but in regards to his bowling he is the spin version of Faheem Ashraf. Just like him he doesn't have the penetration to take wickets because of his inability to spin the ball. Hence why it comes to no surprise he has only managed 1 wicket from the 32 overs over the 4 matches he's played in this series. About time, management redefines his role in the side as a specialist lower order batsman who can bowl 5-7 economical overs.

Hafeez just simply isn't the same as bowler with his remodelled action and for those who observe his action closely will see that he has a habit of reverting to his chucking when he's not performing, which is why his action has been reported at least 3 times over the last few years. This also perhaps explains why he only bowled 10 overs in this series despite playing every game.

Since Shadab is batting at a strike rate of 67 and is a liability in every other game as a leggie, it's about time Pakistan selects a specialist spinner. But who is the best replacement?

Why does Pakistan have such a dearth in quality spin bowlers? or is quality not the issue here but rather the best List A spinners are being overlooked? I appreciate that it is imperative in the modern game to have spinners who can bat a bit and this is an area where Pakistan have fallen behind, but that is no reason to select bits and pieces cricketers like Shadab in this ODI side. He is not an all rounder nor does he merit a place in the side as a specialist spinner. The batting line up is weak but the side can ill afford to weaken the bowling as Paksitan heavily relies on its bowlers to win the vast majority of its matches. It's time we take a leaf out of India's book and pick specialist spinner(s).

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Pakistan IMO can’t afford to play a specialist spinner who can’t hold a bat, basically like chahal and yadav.

If you look at India’s batting line up, they’re heavily reliant on the top 3, and this allows them to play 2 specialist spinner with 3 seamers.

The problem with this is that the tail is pretty big, and with Pakistan having the tendency to fall like dominoes, we can’t afford to have a long tail, so therefore we have to play mediocre spinners who can bat incase of a collapse.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

I think we’ll see a lot of spinners coming from this year’s PSL.
On the point of ICC’s clampdown on illegal bowling actions, I think that it’s ridiculous to think that cash strapped countries and struggling economies can have systems in place that can develop bowlers with clean bowling actions.
In Pakistan, especially, kids who grow up bowling spin on the streets don’t get any help from professional coaches. They develop their own unique styles that are almost always illegal by ICC standards.
I think there is a systemic inequality within the ICC/MCC and their rule making procedures that cynically ignore the plight of cash strapped economies.

 

[topspin]

Pakistan IMO can’t afford to play a specialist spinner who can’t hold a bat, basically like chahal and yadav.

If you look at India’s batting line up, they’re heavily reliant on the top 3, and this allows them to play 2 specialist spinner with 3 seamers.

The problem with this is that the tail is pretty big, and with Pakistan having the tendency to fall like dominoes, we can’t afford to have a long tail, so therefore we have to play mediocre spinners who can bat incase of a collapse.

I agree with this but is Shadab's batting at a SR of 67 worth the expense of his liability in the spin department? I don't think so.

 

[topspin]

I think we’ll see a lot of spinners coming from this year’s PSL.
On the point of ICC’s clampdown on illegal bowling actions, I think that it’s ridiculous to think that cash strapped countries and struggling economies can have systems in place that can develop bowlers with clean bowling actions.
In Pakistan, especially, kids who grow up bowling spin on the streets don’t get any help from professional coaches. They develop their own unique styles that are almost always illegal by ICC standards.
I think there is a systemic inequality within the ICC/MCC and their rule making procedures that cynically ignore the plight of cash strapped economies.

I disagree it is up to PCB to invest in bio mechanics systems and specialists in the field but they choose not to invest in this because it's not deemed as a priority.

BCCI have a testing centre in Chennai with all the equipment and specialists required to detect and work on these issues with younger bowlers at an early stage of their careers.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

I agree with this but is Shadab's batting at a SR of 67 worth the expense of his liability in the spin department? I don't think so.

It’s definitely not worth it especially when you require quick runs at the back of the innings.

Shadab is basically the poorer version of Afridi, a leggie who can bat, but Afridi’s Strike Rate at No.6-7 I believe was 130, which was very important as his quick fire runs won us many games from losing positions.

 

[Markhor]

Agreed, infact I was wanting to start a thread on this. Pakistan's spinners are simply not penetrative enough.

Imad averages 58 against the top sides in ODIs while Shadab averages 38.

Now Imad's economy is excellent so can be a decent fifth bowling option, and is a handy lower-order hitter unlike Shadab, but he's not someone who'll win ODIs with the ball. That means the other spinner must be a genuine strike bowler which Shadab is not. He lacks accuracy due to his tendency to bowl one long hop per over and relies heavily on the googly.

The sooner we dispense with pseudo all-rounders like Shadab and Fahim the better. They haven't kicked on since the CT and their figures are inflated by SL/WI bashing.

 

[PakPremi]

Shadab has been good and will continue to improve and shine in England. We do not coach our spinners any more, and also the spinners who actually turn the ball are not selected. So blame goes to the selectors and management.

 

[topspin]

Shadab has been good and will continue to improve and shine in England. We do not coach our spinners any more, and also the spinners who actually turn the ball are not selected. So blame goes to the selectors and management.

He's a good T20I spinner who has the potential to make it at test level as an all rounder however he doesn't belong to ODIs at this stage of his career. He's the prime target for opposition batsmen out of all the Pakistani bowlers because he gives cheap runs and he isn't threatening to take wickets. No point of having a lower order batsman at 7 with a SR of 67. His value to the team with the bat is so low, Hasan Ali is a bigger asset in this regard. Pakistan would be better served with a specialist wicket taking spinner going into the WC. Can't always rely on the pacers to get 10 wickets.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

I disagree it is up to PCB to invest in bio mechanics systems and specialists in the field but they choose not to invest in this because it's not deemed as a priority.

BCCI have a testing centre in Chennai with all the equipment and specialists required to detect and work on these issues with younger bowlers at an early stage of their careers.

You are seriously comparing PCB with BCCI after reading everything I wrote?

 

[topspin]

You are seriously comparing PCB with BCCI after reading everything I wrote?

I don't believe its a matter of money but more about priorities. If PCB can throw money to World XI, Zimbabwe and other teams to play in Pakistan they're not as cash strapped as you think.

They also threw some millions of dollars with that BCCI dispute. If only that surplus cash could go towards enhancing Pakistan cricket where it is needed, we'd find the domestics and overall cricketing structure head in the right direction.

Pakistan don't need a state of the art Bio mechanics centre like India has, just some investment in equipment and specialists would be suffice.

 

[rhony]

English spinners are typically operating with a heavy score to defend. Moeen is an excellent defensive bowler with Rashid trying to take wickets. Indian spinners attack relentlessly because of the same reason. They know their team can score runs even if they give away a few in pursuit of wickets. Shadab doesn't have the same luxury. Pakistan always scores at or below par score and he's supposed to pick wickets while containing runs. He doesn't have a partner to put pressure on the batsman from the other end. I've been watching Shadab closely for a year now and I think he's a very good bowler. He picks wickets almost every game and has very good variations. He would have been lot more effective if he doesn't have to worry about runs. He's fulfilling the role of 2 spinners

 

[topspin]

English spinners are typically operating with a heavy score to defend. Moeen is an excellent defensive bowler with Rashid trying to take wickets. Indian spinners attack relentlessly because of the same reason. They know their team can score runs even if they give away a few in pursuit of wickets. Shadab doesn't have the same luxury. Pakistan always scores at or below par score and he's supposed to pick wickets while containing runs. He doesn't have a partner to put pressure on the batsman from the other end. I've been watching Shadab closely for a year now and I think he's a very good bowler. He picks wickets almost every game and has very good variations. He would have been lot more effective if he doesn't have to worry about runs. He's fulfilling the role of 2 spinners

Shadab is a far inferior bowler to Adil Rashid let alone Kuldeep and Rashid Khan, so to suggest he's "very good" is a massive overstatement.

Like Shadab, Adil Rashid also goes for runs however he can bamboozle batsmen with magic leg breaks and googlies. So for this reason even if he was playing for Pakistan he would still succeed.

I think a more accurate assessment would be to say Shadab is a very average bowler. There are several attacking spinners who are better than him including Adil Rashid, Kuldeep Yadav, Rashid Khan, Mujeeb and a 39 year old Imran Tahir.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

I don't believe its a matter of money but more about priorities. If PCB can throw money to World XI, Zimbabwe and other teams to play in Pakistan they're not as cash strapped as you think.

They also threw some millions of dollars with that BCCI dispute. If only that surplus cash could go towards enhancing Pakistan cricket where it is needed, we'd find the domestics and overall cricketing structure head in the right direction.

Pakistan don't need a state of the art Bio mechanics centre like India has, just some investment in equipment and specialists would be suffice.

They have the money. But they don't have access to the people playing on streets and vise versa. By the time those street cricketers take up the sport professionally they develop their own unique actions. That's why you see 23 year old players playing at the under 19 teams. Its about cricketers' general lack of access to PCB and PCB's lack of access to cricketers from an early age that is the problem. All of it links directly to money. For example, ppl in India are now encouraging their young generation to take up the sport professionally because they believe that it will bring financial stability for them. The opposite is true for Pakistan.
That doesn't mean that PCB should not be held responsible for their lack of will on the subject. But PCB does not exist in a vacuum. Its the culmination of PCB's lack of will and Pakistan's poor socio-economic condition that has exacerbated the problem here.

 

[rhony]

Shadab is a far inferior bowler to Adil Rashid let alone Kuldeep and Rashid Khan, so to suggest he's "very good" is a massive overstatement.

Like Shadab, Adil Rashid also goes for runs however he can bamboozle batsmen with magic leg breaks and googlies. So for this reason even if he was playing for Pakistan he would still succeed.

I think a more accurate assessment would be to say Shadab is a very average bowler. There are several attacking spinners who are better than him including Adil Rashid, Kuldeep Yadav, Rashid Khan, Mujeeb and a 39 year old Imran Tahir.

Shadab outperfomed Tahir. Heck, Tahir doesnt even deserve a spot anymore. As I said, we don't know the full potential of Shadab unless he has the same luxuries as other spinners. He;s relatively new on the scene and needs support. He's got the ingredients to succeed.

 

[topspin]

They have the money. But they don't have access to the people playing on streets and vise versa. By the time those street cricketers take up the sport professionally they develop their own unique actions. That's why you see 23 year old players playing at the under 19 teams. Its about cricketers' general lack of access to PCB and PCB's lack of access to cricketers from an early age that is the problem. All of it links directly to money. For example, ppl in India are now encouraging their young generation to take up the sport professionally because they believe that it will bring financial stability for them. The opposite is true for Pakistan.
That doesn't mean that PCB should not be held responsible for their lack of will on the subject. But PCB does not exist in a vacuum. Its the culmination of PCB's lack of will and Pakistan's poor socio-economic condition that has exacerbated the problem here.

Couldn't agree more but if PCB had the Biomechanic facilities surely once these players become professional (i.e. all domestic spinners), perhaps their bowling actions can be remodelled so they are within the legal limits?

I mean sure some of the bowlers will fail to make it in domestic and international cricket but some could still prosper. What seems apparent to me is after 4-5 years after ICC's clampdown, PCB is not doing anything to eradicate and remodel these bowling actions while these players are in their infancy of their cricketing careers. This is evident by the lack of abundance of upcoming right arm finger spinners found in the PSL and List A cricket - let alone the national side.

 

[topspin]

Shadab outperfomed Tahir. Heck, Tahir doesnt even deserve a spot anymore. As I said, we don't know the full potential of Shadab unless he has the same luxuries as other spinners. He;s relatively new on the scene and needs support. He's got the ingredients to succeed.

Shadab took more wickets but his economy was atrocious compared to Tahir's who did the basics well. Bowled beautifully yesterday to pin Pakistan down. Yes he didn't take wickets but went for just 36 runs off his 10 overs, while bowlers at the other end were chipping away with wickets. Tahir had a better series in my view, so if he doesn't deserve a spot nor does Shadab.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Couldn't agree more but if PCB had the Biomechanic facilities surely once these players become professional (i.e. all domestic spinners), perhaps their bowling actions can be remodelled so they are within the legal limits?

I mean sure some of the bowlers will fail to make it in domestic and international cricket but some could still prosper. What seems apparent to me is after 4-5 years after ICC's clampdown, PCB is not doing anything to eradicate and remodel these bowling actions while these players are in their infancy of their cricketing careers. This is evident by the lack of abundance of upcoming right arm finger spinners found in the PSL and List A cricket - let alone the national side.

They used their biomechanics machines to in essence informally ban a lot of spinners from the domestic cricket. Instead of improving their actions PCB ended up getting scared and ran for the hill. That’s inexcusable but not the whole story. There’s not enough (qualitatively) local expertise on biomechanics and the security issues have limited the chances of having foreign experts working on domestic players.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Couldn't agree more but if PCB had the Biomechanic facilities surely once these players become professional (i.e. all domestic spinners), perhaps their bowling actions can be remodelled so they are within the legal limits?

I mean sure some of the bowlers will fail to make it in domestic and international cricket but some could still prosper. What seems apparent to me is after 4-5 years after ICC's clampdown, PCB is not doing anything to eradicate and remodel these bowling actions while these players are in their infancy of their cricketing careers. This is evident by the lack of abundance of upcoming right arm finger spinners found in the PSL and List A cricket - let alone the national side.

PCB do have the biomechanics machinery and if I remember correctly they have signed an agreement with LUMS to run them.

 

[topspin]

They used their biomechanics machines to in essence informally ban a lot of spinners from the domestic cricket. Instead of improving their actions PCB ended up getting scared and ran for the hill. That’s inexcusable but not the whole story. There’s not enough (qualitatively) local expertise on biomechanics and the security issues have limited the chances of having foreign experts working on domestic players.

That's exactly what I suspected and indeed it is inexcusable. Really good insight this, many thanks!

 

[Sherlock]

I'm sorry but the thread title makes it sound like we've had bowlers that have been great because they've had issues with their bowling action...

 

[topspin]

I'm sorry but the thread title makes it sound like we've had bowlers that have been great because they've had issues with their bowling action...

Since the late 2000s upto 2014 that has exactly been the case. Ajmal and Hafeez have been dominating the bowling during this period. Afridi and very briefly Raza Hasan were the only spinners (of note) who were actually legit around then. We don't know about Saqlain either but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I get your point (albeit in jest) it's inexcusable for an Asian team enriched by quality spinners over the last few decades to not have one decent limited overs spinner who can bowl without breaking the laws of the sport.

 

[Sherlock]

Since the late 2000s upto 2014 that has exactly been the case. Ajmal and Hafeez have been dominating the bowling during this period. Afridi and very briefly Raza Hasan were the only spinners (of note) who were actually legit around then. We don't know about Saqlain either but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I get your point (albeit in jest) it's inexcusable for an Asian team enriched by quality spinners over the last few decades to not have one decent limited overs spinner who can bowl without breaking the laws of the sport.

Pakistan not having the quality spinners to match those of the past is more to do with the lack of well...quality and less to do with the rule change. I think you're overthinking this a little.

 

[topspin]

Pakistan not having the quality spinners to match those of the past is more to do with the lack of well...quality and less to do with the rule change. I think you're overthinking this a little.

No you're being naive, since 2000 Pakistan has predominately relied on right arm finger spinners like Saqlain, Ajmal, Hafeez (with the old action) and etc. They've never produced world class ODI left arm spinners and other than Afridi there have not been any decent ODI wrist spinners over that period.

Also refer to post 18 where Angrez Pakistani mentions a lot of domestic spinners being banned from playing professional cricket after bio mechanics testing which refutes your "more to do with the lack of well...quality and less to do with the rule change" claim.

 

[Sherlock]

No you're being naive, since 2000 Pakistan has predominately relied on right arm finger spinners like Saqlain, Ajmal, Hafeez (with the old action) and etc. They've never produced world class ODI left arm spinners and other than Afridi there have not been any decent ODI wrist spinners over that period.

Also refer to post 18 where Angrez Pakistani mentions a lot of domestic spinners being banned from playing professional cricket after bio mechanics testing which refutes your "more to do with the lack of well...quality and less to do with the rule change" claim.

Calling someone naive when the quality of our bowling resources has been poor, is naivety in itself.

Regarding domestic cricket, what's that got do with those that have come through the system but simply haven't been good enough for longer period of time

Arshad Khan was decent enough. Raza Hasan was too, but his extracurricular activities haven't helped his career.

Ajmal's action only got bad in his last 3-4 years of bowling. His action before that was fine and to call in to question his start-end career as the same isn't right.

Also you point out the domestic cricketers being banned from playing cricket because of their actions, that's before they've even debuted for their country. Not all of this is down to the laws changing and that not helping our spinners, it's down to the quality and dearth of good spinners in our system.

Zulfiqar Babar was a good spinner but because he cam into the side too late we didn't have the foresight to look ahead and pick other spinners because that's exactly what we did with Ajmal after Saqlain was our top spinner.

To also say there weren't decent ODI wrist spinners in *that* period of time is possibly true, but there weren't too many decent wrist spinners full stop. Even before Afridi we didn't have a good wrist spinner.

These things go way before the banning of illegal actions.

We don't produce too many right-arm fast bowlers after the illegal action ban, shall we also blame Shoaib Akhtar for that?! We're going through a dearth of quality players throughout the departments, and atm, it's decent spinners.

 

[Sherlock]

What's more pertinent is the lack of swing bowlers coming through after the introduction of 1 new balls per each end.

I guess the bowlers aren't simply good enough to realise pace and just pace won't do it anymore and they have to improve different aspects of their game. Look at every new ball bowler from around the World, and compare them to ours. They have the same issues of the new ball but are better at swinging the ball one way and the other.

We simply don't have the quality pacers, nor spinners coming through. You can't blame the laws changing in the players being picked.

 

[rhony]

Shadab took more wickets but his economy was atrocious compared to Tahir's who did the basics well. Bowled beautifully yesterday to pin Pakistan down. Yes he didn't take wickets but went for just 36 runs off his 10 overs, while bowlers at the other end were chipping away with wickets. Tahir had a better series in my view, so if he doesn't deserve a spot nor does Shadab.

It was painful to watch Shoaib handle Tahir. Anybody else would have manhandled those dollies. You have to look at it from the managemt perspective and the team requirements. Finger spinners seem to be ineffective in LOIs and having at least one wrist spinner is a must. Wrist spin is an art that can't be mastered in teens. He's 19 or 20 and will take some time to be more effective. Right now, he's a very promising bowler that can pick wickets with variations and can attack or defend. He should be persisted with because he also offers excellent Fielding and batting potential. He just needs to focus on Strike rotation when he bats and that should take care of SR issues.

 

[Hasan123]

Muhammad Irfan has been doing good in domestic cricket. I wouldn't mind him getting a chance.

 

[topspin]

Calling someone naive when the quality of our bowling resources has been poor, is naivety in itself.

Regarding domestic cricket, what's that got do with those that have come through the system but simply haven't been good enough for longer period of time

Arshad Khan was decent enough. Raza Hasan was too, but his extracurricular activities haven't helped his career.

Ajmal's action only got bad in his last 3-4 years of bowling. His action before that was fine and to call in to question his start-end career as the same isn't right.

Also you point out the domestic cricketers being banned from playing cricket because of their actions, that's before they've even debuted for their country. Not all of this is down to the laws changing and that not helping our spinners, it's down to the quality and dearth of good spinners in our system.

Zulfiqar Babar was a good spinner but because he cam into the side too late we didn't have the foresight to look ahead and pick other spinners because that's exactly what we did with Ajmal after Saqlain was our top spinner.

To also say there weren't decent ODI wrist spinners in *that* period of time is possibly true, but there weren't too many decent wrist spinners full stop. Even before Afridi we didn't have a good wrist spinner.

These things go way before the banning of illegal actions.

We don't produce too many right-arm fast bowlers after the illegal action ban, shall we also blame Shoaib Akhtar for that?! We're going through a dearth of quality players throughout the departments, and atm, it's decent spinners.

No one is blaming Ajmal (or the ICC) but you're wrong to assume he wasn't chucking in previous years. Shane Watson caught him in the act 10 years ago and he was later proven to be correct 5 years after his claim.

The blame goes to PCB for being slow to react when other countries had already ensured that those with suspect actions were kept away from the national set up. It was shameful of them to let all chuckers infest in the domestics.

If you think Arshad Khan was a decent spinner, he wouldn't be driving Uber in Sydney and I'd also suggest checking his wickets per game. Zulfiqar Babar was rubbish and was rightly discarded after 4-5 ODIs.

As for the spinners getting banned whether it be prior to debut or during their professional career, canyou not see that the talent pool is not only less but of an inferior quality? Consequently spin bowling stocks have been down since then. In the last 19-20 years of following the game, this by far the worst spin attack I've come across. You have to be pretty lost if you're failing to spot the correlation with the pre and post 2014 clampdowns and the resulting spin quality.

As I said PCB is to blame not resolving these issue from grassroots and not anticipating the implications going forward.

 

[topspin]

Muhammad Irfan has been doing good in domestic cricket. I wouldn't mind him getting a chance.

I'd love to see him get a chance for Multan Sultans in the PSL.

 

[gazza619]

We need Raza Hassan or Zafar Gohar

 

[Hasan123]

I'd love to see him get a chance for Multan Sultans in the PSL.

I didn't know he was playing in the PSL. If he plays for Multan, they have Afridi so I don't know if they will play 2 leg spinners.