On This Day: September 16, 1988 - Javed Miandad smashes 211 vs Australia

[Gotham Cronie]

On September 16, 1988, Javed Miandad resumed on his overnight score of 95* vs Australia in Karachi and batted on until being dismissed for 211.

Pakistan had won the toss and opted to bat on Day 1 and continued to do so before declaring on 469/9 on Day 3.

The skipper, Miandad, top scored with his innings and in the process, scored his 18th Test hundred and fifth double-century.

In reply, Australia were dismissed for 165 and 116 after being asked to follow-on. Pakistan won by an innings and 188 runs to lead the series the 1-0 after one Test.

Scorecard:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63490.html

 

[WebGuru]

JM was the only batsman who scored a century in that match...IQ got 9 wickets...Golden memories...

 

[tempus123]

Yes, I think Australia was furious over dubious umpiring in this match itself, where JM wasn't given out LBW for many plumb occasions.

Steve Waugh writes about it :

I think Javed was playing a backyard cricket match that day, with the only difference in the rules is he was never going to be given out LBW. He should have been out at least 3 times. Once after another unsuccessful appeal for LBW which would have hit middle of middle stump, he came near to the bowler after completing a leg-bye and told us not to try, it was his territory.

I was given out stumped. The fact that I was already back in the crease by the time WK lodged the bails off didn't seem to matter for the umpire who was getting impatient with the resistance I was showing in 2nd innings for 60 deliveries and he wanted to move on to the next show. I thought surely Test cricket can't be played this way. First innings dismissal was unfair too, and I broke the glass window in anger. Peter Taylor was showing good resistance and I had to admire him and not get sucked into my own misfortune.

Pakistan used to prepare a dustbowl and win the 1st Test with dubious umpiring decisions. Then to soothe the tempers, they prepared 2 flat wickets in next two Test matches and ensure draws to let the matter die. The result would still be in favour of Pak 1-0.

Touring Pakistan in 80s was one of the biggest challenges due to such reasons.



Australia threatened to boycott Pakistan tour, in the same series, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Palti_hit]

Yes, I think Australia was furious over dubious umpiring in this match itself, where JM wasn't given out LBW for many plumb occasions.

Steve Waugh writes about it :

I think Javed was playing a backyard cricket match that day, with the only difference in the rules is he was never going to be given out LBW. He should have been out at least 3 times. Once after another unsuccessful appeal for LBW which would have hit middle of middle stump, he came near to the bowler after completing a leg-bye and told us not to try, it was his territory.

I was given out stumped. The fact that I was already back in the crease by the time WK lodged the bails off didn't seem to matter for the umpire who was getting impatient with the resistance I was showing in 2nd innings for 60 deliveries and he wanted to move on to the next show. I thought surely Test cricket can't be played this way. First innings dismissal was unfair too, and I broke the glass window in anger. Peter Taylor was showing good resistance and I had to admire him and not get sucked into my own misfortune.

Pakistan used to prepare a dustbowl and win the 1st Test with dubious umpiring decisions. Then to soothe the tempers, they prepared 2 flat wickets in next two Test matches and ensure draws to let the matter die. The result would still be in favour of Pak 1-0.

Touring Pakistan in 80s was one of the biggest challenges due to such reasons.



Australia threatened to boycott Pakistan tour, in the same series, correct me if I am wrong.

Ahh those old days Why didn't he tried for a triple then?

 

[tempus123]

Ahh those old days Why didn't he tried for a triple then?

He was caught. Umpire can't give it not out if he hasn't already declared it a no-ball. Declaring a no-ball after seeing that batsman is caught, would have been a bit too much.

 

[WebGuru]

Yes, I think Australia was furious over dubious umpiring in this match itself, where JM wasn't given out LBW for many plumb occasions.

There was alot of discussion on this issue already here at PP and i don't think there were any unbiased umpires in that era if you got 20 minutes watch these 2 clips where Imran explained how he got the idea of using neutral umpires:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Lg94lgmjTN8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/c4rhybMI6o0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>​

 

[tempus123]

There was alot of discussion on this issue already here at PP and i don't think there were any unbiased umpires in that era if you got 20 minutes watch these 2 clips where Imran explained how he got the idea of using neutral umpires:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Lg94lgmjTN8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/c4rhybMI6o0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>​

Well, I am talking about this particular match itself. Not sure about the overall bias of umpires in all matches in Pakistan. I didn't make any comment on that.

Neither did I say other umpires were saints. I can't watch the whole clip, so if you can summarize what Imran said here, would be better.

 

[WebGuru]

Well, I am talking about this particular match itself. Not sure about the overall bias of umpires in all matches in Pakistan. I didn't make any comment on that.

Neither did I say other umpires were saints. I can't watch the whole clip, so if you can summarize what Imran said here, would be better.

Well it's hard to summarize it in a few words because there is a context behind it so maybe when you get free time you can watch it later...That was a lecture on Spirit of Cricket at MCC

 

[tempus123]

Well it's hard to summarize it in a few words because there is a context behind it so maybe when you get free time you can watch it later...That was a lecture on Spirit of Cricket at MCC

Ok.. but let's for now concentrate on this match itself.

 

[Xoib]

Miandad was a great batsman its not out off his reach to score a double against Peter Taylor and Tim May i believe the local umpires did go easy on him especially ealry on as he had the habit of shuffling but once he was in biased or biased umpires he would murder all and sundry.

 

[tempus123]

Miandad was a great batsman its not out off his reach to score a double against Peter Taylor and Tim May i believe the local umpires did go easy on him especially ealry on as he had the habit of shuffling but once he was in biased or biased umpires he would murder all and sundry.

Not sure if it makes sense.

 

[Hitman]

Yes, I think Australia was furious over dubious umpiring in this match itself, where JM wasn't given out LBW for many plumb occasions.

Steve Waugh writes about it :

I think Javed was playing a backyard cricket match that day, with the only difference in the rules is he was never going to be given out LBW. He should have been out at least 3 times. Once after another unsuccessful appeal for LBW which would have hit middle of middle stump, he came near to the bowler after completing a leg-bye and told us not to try, it was his territory.

I was given out stumped. The fact that I was already back in the crease by the time WK lodged the bails off didn't seem to matter for the umpire who was getting impatient with the resistance I was showing in 2nd innings for 60 deliveries and he wanted to move on to the next show. I thought surely Test cricket can't be played this way. First innings dismissal was unfair too, and I broke the glass window in anger. Peter Taylor was showing good resistance and I had to admire him and not get sucked into my own misfortune.

Pakistan used to prepare a dustbowl and win the 1st Test with dubious umpiring decisions. Then to soothe the tempers, they prepared 2 flat wickets in next two Test matches and ensure draws to let the matter die. The result would still be in favour of Pak 1-0.

Touring Pakistan in 80s was one of the biggest challenges due to such reasons.



Australia threatened to boycott Pakistan tour, in the same series, correct me if I am wrong.

I have scanned copies of the pages from Steve Waugh's autobiography where he discusses this matter.

 

[tempus123]

I have scanned files of the pages from Steve Waugh's autobiography where he discusses this matter.

our sources are same.. (Out of my comfort zone)

I may have changed a few words here and there, since I am writing from my memory, but I hope I have not changed the essence of what he said, have I ? You can correct the post if you feel the essence is changed.

 

[Singham]

Yes, I think Australia was furious over dubious umpiring in this match itself, where JM wasn't given out LBW for many plumb occasions.

Steve Waugh writes about it :

I think Javed was playing a backyard cricket match that day, with the only difference in the rules is he was never going to be given out LBW. He should have been out at least 3 times. Once after another unsuccessful appeal for LBW which would have hit middle of middle stump, he came near to the bowler after completing a leg-bye and told us not to try, it was his territory.

I was given out stumped. The fact that I was already back in the crease by the time WK lodged the bails off didn't seem to matter for the umpire who was getting impatient with the resistance I was showing in 2nd innings for 60 deliveries and he wanted to move on to the next show. I thought surely Test cricket can't be played this way. First innings dismissal was unfair too, and I broke the glass window in anger. Peter Taylor was showing good resistance and I had to admire him and not get sucked into my own misfortune.

Pakistan used to prepare a dustbowl and win the 1st Test with dubious umpiring decisions. Then to soothe the tempers, they prepared 2 flat wickets in next two Test matches and ensure draws to let the matter die. The result would still be in favour of Pak 1-0.

Touring Pakistan in 80s was one of the biggest challenges due to such reasons.



Australia threatened to boycott Pakistan tour, in the same series, correct me if I am wrong.

Ha ha ha..this is such a spoiler in this thread...lol...omg..

 

[tempus123]

Ha ha ha..this is such a spoiler in this thread...lol...omg..

Well, let me clear, I don't undermine Javed as such. Though he isn't my favourite player, but it's still no mean feat to average 50+ throughout your career, and then he was not alone in the world to have been helped by umpires at certain points in his career. I don't believe he would have been a bad player had some umpiring support not been there.

My purpose of posting this snip by Waugh has to remain confined to this particular match only, and I am not making any general comment.

 

[tempus123]

Javed even had I Love NY cap perhaps in that innings.

 

[saiyan0312]

Ok the umpires did go easy on him but come on. Its not like the umpires gave the entire aussie team all out. LBW was the most dubious outs of that time and there only 6 in those two innings combined. Why didn't anyone step up and score some runs.

 

[Haroon786]

Brilliant innings, anyone can make this hearsay up, Gavaskar and others were also helped, perhaps he was hed in marginal decisions, so what ?

 

[tempus123]

Ok the umpires did go easy on him but come on. Its not like the umpires gave the entire aussie team all out. LBW was the most dubious outs of that time and there only 6 in those two innings combined. Why didn't anyone step up and score some runs.

You know you are not making a good point here.. 6 LBWs and also add stumping, are you asking the question "why didn't others step up" ? Are you sure the question is valid in an international match ? It's a big coincidence that NONE of the batsmen in Pakistan's innings was given out LBW, well it can happen usually for sure, but just an angle. Not to say that all 6 LBWs were wrong decisions either.

I like your tone "umpires did not give the entire aussie team out".. they left quite a few, and these Australians are so ungrateful for who were spared.

 

[tempus123]

Brilliant innings, anyone can make this hearsay up, Gavaskar and others were also helped, perhaps he was hed in marginal decisions, so what ?

Sure are you accusing me of making it up, or Waugh to make it up ?

Marginal decisions are never talked about that much, mate. It's when horrible shockers are made, it infuriates the opposition. Also, if the shockers have an element of bias, it is even more problem. If the batsman knows he is not going to be given out, well...

 

[tempus123]

A link here :

http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/153519.html

Egar was again manager of the Australian touring team, and along with Bob Simpson, the coach, was the leading protagonist in the controversy that erupted on the third day of the First Test. It resulted from what the Australians considered were questionable decisions by Mahboob Shah, one of Pakistan's more reliable umpires. He had stood in the previous year's World Cup final when Australia beat England in Calcutta. Australia, in reply to Pakistan's first-innings score of 469 for nine declared, were faring badly against the left-arm spinner, Iqbal Qasim. And when Steve Waugh was given out lbw without scoring to leave Australia 54 for five, the Australians' ire knew no bounds. Egar and Simpson went to the Pakistan Board officials' room to lodge their protest in a manner and language considered insulting by the Pakistanis. Then, during the tea interval, they called the Australian journalists to a press conference at which they criticised the pitch and Mahboob Shah's decisions. Egar, a former Test umpire, later challenged the umpire himself.

Such was the strength of Australian feeling about the conduct of the match that, at the end, there was a possibility of the team abandoning the tour. Allan Border, the Australian captain, described the Karachi pitch as the worst he had seen anywhere and said they would have to consider carefully whether or not to return home. It would seem like sour grapes after losing the Test, he said but ultimately somebody has to make a stand. A statement issued by the Australian team the next day emphasised that it was not the first touring team to take exception to the standard of the pitches and the umpiring in Pakistan. The situation is unacceptable and damaging to the international cricket, yet nothing seems to be done. We appeal to the Pakistan Board and the ICC to take a long and honest look at the situation confronting visiting teams....

 

[miandadrules]

In Ian Healey's autobiography he said he didn't feel the umpiring was poor. Healey's take on it was the accusations were a result of Aussie frustration at having to play in conditions that didn't suit them.

 

[tempus123]

In Ian Healey's autobiography he said he didn't feel the umpiring was poor. Healey's take on it was the accusations were a result of Aussie frustration at having to play in conditions that didn't suit them.

Ok.. but Steve Waugh in his autobiography included Healy also as one of those who supported the boycott because umpiring was poor.. it is kind of conflicting of Healy to say that. Plus as wisden's article above, most of the Australians including the captain and the manager felt very strongly about it.

We don't see so much anger in every other tour.

 

[tempus123]

A funny incident here, did it really happen ? Anyway, not a smart comment from AB if it is true. Imran did the right thing by complaining.

During one of those days,Imran Khan,the captain of the Pakistan Cricket team met Australian captain Allan Border in an informal meeting in Sydney..During a chat Imran told Allan Border “AB,give me Sunil Gavaskar and B.S.Chandra Shekhar from India,we will beat Australia..”..In a shocking reply Allan Border said “..Imran,just give me two Umpires from Pakistan and we will beat the whole world..”…Imran Khan was left speechless..

Later,the furious Imran Khan complained to the Australian board..On pressure from his board,Allan Border tendered apologies to Imran Khan and Pakistan Cricket Board.

 

[saiyan0312]

You know you are not making a good point here.. 6 LBWs and also add stumping, are you asking the question "why didn't others step up" ? Are you sure the question is valid in an international match ? It's a big coincidence that NONE of the batsmen in Pakistan's innings was given out LBW, well it can happen usually for sure, but just an angle. Not to say that all 6 LBWs were wrong decisions either.

I like your tone "umpires did not give the entire aussie team out".. they left quite a few, and these Australians are so ungrateful for who were spared.

No the point i was making was the one out people could mostly shout about was the lbw. There were only six in both innings combined. So he cant blame the loss of the match on the umpires completely. Why doesn't he look at it from this point of view that why didn't the other batsmen score runs. Shoib scored a 94. So if he was capable of doing that then why not his batsmen who had two innings to make such scores. He cant say they had umpires messing with the first match to win. Umpires messed up but that is not the reason of the aussie defeat.

 

[tempus123]

No the point i was making was the one out people could mostly shout about was the lbw. There were only six in both innings combined. So he cant blame the loss of the match on the umpires completely. Why doesn't he look at it from this point of view that why didn't the other batsmen score runs. Shoib scored a 94. So if he was capable of doing that then why not his batsmen who had two innings to make such scores. He cant say they had umpires messing with the first match to win. Umpires messed up but that is not the reason of the aussie defeat.

Surely umpires messing up big time can be the reason of defeat in a match of two good sides. You take any club level match and will see the point, and here we are talking of international match. Six LBWs and 2 stumpings are a big share in a Test match.. they make up 8 out of 20 wickets and most of them were top order too.

I agree with you that the difference of runs is still huge, and Australia should have still fought harder than they did. I mentioned it in his quote where he talks about P. Taylor and the need to support the fight he was showing.

But you also have to see the number of not-outs given to a class batsman like JM.. surely a great batsman will make full use of any life, whereas others can't.

Also he was not alone in saying that about the match, whole Australian team including the manager was complaining so much that they were about to abandon the tour.. surely this can't be just a passing error. They didn't complain so much about other matches like 1994 loss by 1 wicket etc.

 

[salahudin]

Ok so looking at the scorecard of this match and Pakistan whilst batting were all out either caught or bowled and the aussi team had 5 out through LBW in there 2 innings.

 

[tempus123]

Ok so looking at the scorecard of this match and Pakistan whilst batting were all out either caught or bowled and the aussi team had 5 out through LBW in there 2 innings.

6 LBWs and 2 stumpings.

 

[WebGuru]

Ok so looking at the scorecard of this match and Pakistan whilst batting were all out either caught or bowled and the aussi team had 5 out through LBW in there 2 innings.

And we are just focusing on one match of that series because Miandad scored a double in that match? Let's take a look at the other 2 test matches of that series.

More Pakistani batsmen were given LBW and Stumped in 2nd Test match thn Australians and also check Miandad was given LBW too in this match.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/63491.html

And 3rd Test match almost same number of LBW's for both Australia and Pakistan.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/63492.html



Now let's take a look at this Test match between Australia and England in Australia there were 34 dismissals and how come there is not a single LBW or Stump in that match?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63257.html


Also check this match between India and Pakistan in India and there were 30 dismissal but only 2 LBW's, 1 for Pakistan and 1 for India
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63251.html


.

 

[akheR]

I think the street fighter still remains the youngest chap to score a double hundred, he did it at the age of 19 (?), when some others barely earn a Test cap.

 

[tempus123]

And we are just focusing on one match of that series because Miandad scored a double in that match? Let's take a look at the other 2 test matches of that series.

More Pakistani batsmen were given LBW and Stumped in 2nd Test match thn Australians and also check Miandad was given LBW too in this match.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/63491.html

And 3rd Test match almost same number of LBW's for both Australia and Pakistan.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/63492.html



Now let's take a look at this Test match between Australia and England in Australia there were 34 dismissals and how come there is not a single LBW or Stump in that match?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63257.html


Also check this match between India and Pakistan in India and there were 30 dismissal but only 2 LBW's, 1 for Pakistan and 1 for India
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63251.html


.

Number of LBWs stats doesn't prove anything. Nowhere have I said that 6 LBWs and 2 stumpings are all dubious decisions. Plus there can be 10 LBWs and all of them can be right. Also, there can be 0 LBWs in the series and yes, all of them can be right.

Perhaps we are missing the point here. The point is not the number of LBWs, but the manner of LBWs or no-LBWs when it was out.

 

[tempus123]

I think the street fighter still remains the youngest chap to score a double hundred, he did it at the age of 19 (?), when some others barely earn a Test cap.

He was a great batsman.. though not my favourite

 

[WebGuru]

Number of LBWs stats doesn't prove anything. Nowhere have I said that 6 LBWs and 2 stumpings are all dubious decisions. Plus there can be 10 LBWs and all of them can be right. Also, there can be 0 LBWs in the series and yes, all of them can be right.

Perhaps we are missing the point here. The point is not the number of LBWs, but the manner of LBWs or no-LBWs when it was out.

ok so you have watched the full match?

 

[tempus123]

ok so you have watched the full match?

I haven't, but you will agree not every match has to be watched by self to make observations.

I picked Australian players/captain/manager statements for this match, and quoted them in the posts above.

 

[WebGuru]

I haven't, but you will agree not every match has to be watched by self to make observations.

I picked Australian players/captain/manager statements for this match, and quoted them in the posts above.

You picked one side opinion right? Is it fair to judge someone based on one party opinion if that was the case thn each touring team in that era complained about umpiring of home team right? Pakistain in india tour, India in Pakistan tour, Pakistan in England tour etc...and i remember Imran mentioned it many times that Pakistan almost won that series against WI at home but it was drawn because of home umpiring and Viv Richard was not given out many times.

 

[tempus123]

You picked one side opinion right? Is it fair to judge someone based on one party opinion if that was the case thn each touring team in that era complained about umpiring of home team right? Pakistain in india tour, India in Pakistan tour, Pakistan in England tour etc...and i remember Imran mentioned it many times that Pakistan almost won that series against WI at home but it was drawn because of home umpiring and Viv Richard was not given out.

We are getting ahead of the point here. I am not making any general comment and have no intention to pick one opinion. If you have a counter opinion by any player for this match, please feel free to post. That will balance out the things, and give us all a better perspective.

Since the match being talked about is Javed's 211, I picked comments centric to that, do I have to criticise all bad umpiring decisions in the history in order to lend credibility into this particular post ? Wouldn't it have been derailing the thread ?

I can understand your point, if I had made a general sweeping comment about Pakistan's umpiring standard, which I haven't. All my comments are with respect to this match only.

 

[WebGuru]

We are getting ahead of the point here. I am not making any general comment and have no intention to pick one opinion. If you have a counter opinion by any player for this match, please feel free to post.

Since the match being talked about is Javed's 211, I picked comments centric to that, do I have to criticise all bad umpiring decisions in order to lend credibility into this particular post ? Wouldn't it have been derailing the thread ?

I can understand your point, if I had made a general sweeping comment about Pakistan's umpiring standard, which I haven't. All my comments are with respect to this match only.

You didn't replied to my question i only asked you a simple question...Is it fair to judge someone based on one party opinion?

 

[tempus123]

You didn't replied to my question i only asked you a simple question...Is it fair to judge someone based on one party opinion?

Apart from asking that "simple" question, you also made 3-4 statements in that post, which had nothing to do with this match, and I replied/clarified my point in them.

As per your this question, No, it's not fair to judge on one party opinion, but do we have counter opinions ? If yes, I asked you to post them for a better all-round perspective on this match.

My inclination of judgment comes from my trust in Steve Waugh's integrity and the belief that he wouldn't make up things just to criticise. I am not asking anyone to completely believe it, I am just putting it as a view point of his here. If it had been a player of lesser integrity, I would have brushed it aside.

I also posted Border's comment on this match and the way they threatened to boycott tour. The fact that they picked this particular match to do it, and did not do for other tours to Pakistan, makes me believe that something was wrong here.

 

[WebGuru]

Apart from asking that "simple" question, you also made 3-4 statements in that post, which had nothing to do with this match, and I replied/clarified my point in them.

As per your this question, No, it's not fair to judge on one party opinion, but do we have counter opinions ? If yes, I asked you to post them for a better all-round perspective on this match.

My inclination of judgment comes from my trust in Steve Waugh's integrity and the belief that he wouldn't make up things just to criticise. I am not asking anyone to completely believe it, I am just putting it as a view point of his here. If it had been a player of lesser integrity, I would have brushed it aside.

I also posted Border's comment on this match and the way they threatened to boycott tour. The fact that they picked this particular match to do it, and did not do for other tours to Pakistan, makes me believe that something was wrong here.

It was necessary to look in a wider picture i posted the facts from next 2 matches of same series between same teams so it's within context. Well Waugh is my favorite player too and i respect his opinion but here he was part of the team so i don't think there is a big chance to remain neutral here.

 

[tempus123]

It was necessary to look in a wider picture i posted the facts from next 2 matches of same series between same teams so it's within context. Well Waugh is my favorite player too and i respect his opinion but here he was part of the team so i don't think there is a big chance to remain neutral here.

If there is anyone I can trust to give a neutral opinion despite being in the team, it's Waugh.

I have seen/read enough about his going against his own team players and supported opposition players when the things took a bad turn on the field. A case in point was his view against McGrath in McGrath-Sarwan incident and his view against Slater in Slater-Dravid incident.

He has criticised his own umpires for making bad decisions in the series against NZ and Eng too.

 

[WebGuru]

If there is anyone I can trust to give a neutral opinion despite being in the team, it's Waugh.

I have seen/read enough about his going against his own team players and supported opposition players when the things took a bad turn on the field. A case in point was his view against McGrath in McGrath-Sarwan incident and his view against Slater in Slater-Dravid incident.

He has criticised his own umpires for making bad decisions in the series against NZ and Eng too.

Well that's your opinion and i do respect it but we can agree to disagree here...

 

[tempus123]

As per his views being not neutral because he was in team . here is what he talked about Kolkata Test of 2001 on bad umpiring question :

Many people feel that our batsmen were wrongly given out LBWs, but I feel all of them were given out correctly. The bad decision was made in 1st innings when V Prasad wasn't given out and it allowed Laxman to cut loose and score 39 and that enabled him to get confidence to get on that 281 in the 2nd dig.

 

[tempus123]

Well that's your opinion and i do respect it but we can agree to disagree here...

Sure, but we should have a valid point when we question someone's integrity (not being neutral because he was part of the team here is a question on his integrity).

 

[WebGuru]

Sure, but we should have a valid point when we question someone's integrity (not being neutral because he was part of the team here is a question on his integrity).

Just because your and my opinion is different about his opinion in this match context doesn't mean we are questioning his integrity...He is my favorite player and will remain my favorite player from australia but that doesn't mean i have to believe everything he said 100%

 

[tempus123]

Just because your and my opinion is different about his opinion in this match context doesn't mean we are questioning his integrity...He is my favorite player and will remain my favorite player from australia but that doesn't mean i have to believe everything he said 100%

Sure, you can disagree, and don't have to believe 100% (did I say that ? ). I already clarified one doesn't have to believe every word here.

My point was the objection on the reason of your not believing him because "there is a big chance of his neutrality getting affected due to him being in the team"..

My objection was to the "reason", not to your not believing him here.

 

[WebGuru]

Sure, you can disagree, and don't have to believe 100% (did I say that ? ).

My point was the objection on the reason of your not believing him because "there is a big chance of his neutrality getting affected due to him being in the team"..

A judge can hear a case in which he is a party?

 

[tempus123]

A judge can hear a case in which he is a party?

No.. he can't and I see your point here.

Let me say that a captain can make reports on umpires' performance in the match (although secretly to the ICC), it's mandatory that he does it. So, he is a party in the match and still preparing the report on umpires.

Now, in 1988, Waugh wasn't captain and as a player he wrote his diary on the match in personal capacity. He is not a final judge on it, but there is no reason to question a bias in his report just because he was a player playing in that match.

His overall record of being fair and consistent helps him win the trust and inclination of readers that he isn't making things up.

It is very unusual for teams to boycott tours. Bad umpiring happens everywhere, but if a team starts to think of boycotting the tour, it raises serious questions.

 

[WebGuru]

No.. he can't and I see your point here.

Let me say that a captain can make reports on umpires' performance in the match (although secretly to the ICC), it's mandatory that he does it. So, he is a party in the match and still preparing the report on umpires.

Now, in 1988, Waugh wasn't captain and as a player he wrote his diary on the match in personal capacity. He is not a final judge on it, but there is no reason to question a bias in his report just because he was a player playing in that match.

His overall record of being fair and consistent helps him win the trust and inclination of readers that he isn't making things up.

It is very unusual for teams to boycott tours. Bad umpiring happens everywhere, but if a team starts to think of boycotting the tour, it raises serious questions.

I am not saying you to change your point of view about him and you got some point to believe him but still i got my doubts so that's why i said earlier we can agree to disagree here...

 

[tempus123]

I am not saying you to change your point of view about him and you got some point to believe him but still i got my doubts so that's why i said earlier we can agree to disagree here...

Do you feel he was making things up in this match (I know you don't doubt his overall integrity) ? Do you feel he was making it up when he said Javed knew he wasn't going to be given out ? Also did he make it up about Javed telling the bowler "You guys are wasting your time with appeals, (nothing will happen), it' my territory" ?

 

[WebGuru]

Do you feel he was making things up in this match (I know you don't doubt his overall integrity) ? Do you feel he was making it up when he said Javed knew he wasn't going to be given out ? Also did he make it up about Javed telling the bowler "You guys are wasting your time with appeals, (nothing will happen), it' my territory" ?

Well i can't give my opinion i didn't heared Javed saying anything like that...

 

[tempus123]

Well i can't give my opinion i didn't heared Javed saying anything like that...

Hmm.. there can be only 3 possibilities here :

1. Javed said it what Waugh attributed to him.

2. Waugh heard him wrongly.

3. Waugh is lying here.

Which one do you think is most likely ?

 

[WebGuru]

Hmm.. there can be only 3 possibilities here :

1. Javed said it what Waugh attributed to him.

2. Waugh heard him wrongly.

3. Waugh is lying here.

Which one do you think is most likely ?

I don't think i can pick any because i never saw them doing it...

 

[tempus123]

I don't think i can pick any because i never saw them doing it...

Fair enough, and I respect your reluctance to pick any because you didn't see it yourself.

 

[tempus123]

Let us look at a neutral source Wisden here. Are they also not credible ?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/152023.html

Next day, Miandad moved on, first to his eighteenth Test hundred and then to his fifth Test-match double-hundred - all five made against different countries. When finally dismissed for 211, having had at least three lives and survived some confident lbw appeals early on, he had batted for 590 minutes, faced 439 balls, and had passed Pakistan's previous highest score against Australia (210 not out by Taslim Arif at Faisalabad in 1979-80).

 

[amax]

In those days bias umpiring was quite common, I think Steve waugh's anger during that series was fueled by Australia's inability to win a test in PAK since Benaud's team toured. I think it was after 40 years that Aus won in 1998. BTW poor umpiring also screwed us in Hobart.

 

[tempus123]

In those days bias umpiring was quite common, I think Steve waugh's anger during that series was fueled by Australia's inability to win a test in PAK since Benaud's team toured. I think it was after 40 years that Aus won in 1998. BTW poor umpiring also screwed us in Hobart.

Well, I also quoted independent source, Wisden above. Not sure your point about Steve Waugh being bitter makes any sense at all. If it had relevance, the proper place would have been the "final frontier" India, which he couldn't conquer as a captain. So, obviously he would have felt the need to put blame on umpires in India for 2001 series. He didn't as you can read in one of my posts above, post #42.

Putting his views in doubt because he couldn't win the series in Pakistan as a player, is not a fair comment at all.

Also, what happened in Hobart had nothing to do with what happened in the above match.

 

[tempus123]

There was alot of discussion on this issue already here at PP and i don't think there were any unbiased umpires in that era if you got 20 minutes watch these 2 clips where Imran explained how he got the idea of using neutral umpires:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Lg94lgmjTN8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/c4rhybMI6o0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>​

I watched it now.. the thing I liked about it was his comment that he never liked the cliche "It all evens out in the end". I feel this cliche has done more harm than good.

As an aside, IK used to stress and punch a few words in each of his sentences, which is irritating to hear.. as otherwise he has good stories to tell and talks a lot of sense.

PS: How good it would have been to see Inzy delivering MCC lecture once ?

 

[mon858]

what an awesome bowling attack, 0 fast bowlers!!!!

Bowling O M R W Econ
Mudassar Nazar 10 3 15 1 1.50
Aamer Malik 2 0 6 0 3.00
Iqbal Qasim 39 24 35 5 0.89
Abdul Qadir 37 16 54 2 1.45
Tauseef Ahmed 26 15 28 1 1.07
Shoaib Mohammad 2 1 1 0 0.50
Saleem Malik 6 4 7 1 1.16

lets do the same to RSA in the coming series.
maybe just Junaid Khan in there, along with Ajmal, Rehman, Zulfiqar, Hafeez (if he is selected - if not wouldn't have him).

prepare dust bowls, and go for the kill.

 

[salahudin]

6 LBWs and 2 stumpings.

Yep actually 6 I missed one

 

[Tapioca]

Hmm.. there can be only 3 possibilities here :

1. Javed said it what Waugh attributed to him.

2. Waugh heard him wrongly.

3. Waugh is lying here.

Which one do you think is most likely ?

What if Miandad did say it ? That would be a pretty effective sledge, wouldn't it ?

 

[tempus123]

What if Miandad did say it ? That would be a pretty effective sledge, wouldn't it ?

It would be a cheap shot, not an effective sledge and it would undermine his own reputation.

 

[Abdullah719]

Two (medium) pace-bowling all-rounders opened the bowling for Pakistan in this match?!?

Solid spin attack though.

 

[Abdullah719]

30 years ago

 

[Hasan123]

Great innings.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Classic era

https://twitter.com/x/status/1835570407253921893

 

[Bhaijaan]

The original stat padder.
Great character though.