Out of 11 away hundreds Virat Kohli has just 4 vs teams other then SL, WI, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh

[Tusker]

I know you are mostly trolling but I will bite as I have nothing better to do right now

Ahmed Shehzad and Javed Miandad both have 2 away hundreds each, a question for you; are they both as good as each other?

well you tell us ... you are the one opening threads and coming to conclusions based on same stats ... but those of us who have actually watched a lot of Kohli bat in a lot of matches know exactly why he is rated so highly.

BTW MSD has ZERO hundreds outside Asia in ODIs ... ergo MSD is a choker ... mast logic hai

 

[Crafty_Indian]

These threads themselves speak of the ridiculous achievements by Kohli more than anything else. Rest all is a bit of cherry picking at best. I am sorry but to try and create such meaningless and worthless threads is a waste of time and analysis..

So I would hope that the op goes and opens some threads with more substance than this coz I don't think it is acting as a good bait.

 

[omcswe]

I did get you. 140 has always been a metric to measure a fast bowler, just that 150+ comes under express pace. And I still maintain that today's bowlers, on average, are much much faster than they have ever been.

Every team, even Bangladesh, have 2-3 players who can crank up 140+ consistently. You may remember how there always used to be a dibbly-dobbly 5th bowler in most teams earlier - that concept has gone now. SA has someone like Morris (earlier it was Klusner or Cronje - both way below 140), India has someone like Pandya (earlier it was Ganguly), and NZ and so on.....

Also I would argue that India, SA, NZ, Eng have had better stocks in last 2-3 yrs than they have ever had. SA has always had 2 amazing frontline bowlers, but with Tahir and Morris - they are better than ever (Rabada, Steyn, Morne, Tahir, Morris...)

NZ again with Milne, Southee, Boult, McClenaghan and Santner IMO are better. Would take it over Cains, Bond (who played few matches), Vettori, Styris...

India - Shami, Bumrah, Bhuvi, Jaddu - you know the rest

England - Rashid, Willey, Wood, Plunkett, etc and just 4 years ago - Swann, Anderson, Broad...

And the rest - Starc, Hazlewood, Amir, Hasan, Malinga, Mendis, Ajmal

Hope I have got the point across. Also I think you should read an article by Jarrod (or Ed Smith?) on cricinfo recently about how bowlers are now faster than ever.

And wait, this is how Sachin actually fared against the great ol' timers:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...er_involve=2101;template=results;type=batting

i have read that article - all it says is that more bowlers than ever are bowling 140 kph but that is indeed not the point over here.

speed doesn't equate to quality; that is my actual point to be precise

and even if it did, the past players had plenty of fast bowlers to face. so that argument again becomes null and void.

the dibbly dobbly argument falls by the wayside as well because in case where the pitches are slow, dibbly dobbly bowlers were deadly. we have to go through a list of bowlers who had great economy rate in the past because they were just impossible to get away from.

also the modern era has only replaced the dibbly bowlers with dart throwers.

if u think pandya is a quality bowler because he offers pace, i will have to disagree with you. on true pitches all he does is offer batsmen pace to maneuver with ease and comes on the bat.

look at the bowling averages of the current bowlers and look at their test statistics - these bowlers may be at times quicker but they aren't really skilled to take wickets.

vaas and heath streak among others showed that in order to take wickets, you do not need pace, you need ability and swing, seam, and control is part of that. a morris doesn't have the skill set of heath streak let alone vaas.

just like we adjust inflation for movies that did business in the past, we have to define measures that accurately estimate batting and bowling averages before making sweeping statements. i will be heartbroken when people in the future will say that kohli is a better batsman than tendulkar and i'm not even an indian fan let alone tendulkar.

 

[Tusker]

Anderson brutally exposed him in England in 2014, Kohli just had no answer and he had 4 test matches to figure out a counter response and he failed miserably. Until and unless he corrects this in similar conditions in the future, i will not rate him beyond a certain point.

I suppose using the same yardstick you will also refuse to rate Anderson as he was brutally exposed in the last series in India in Dec'2016 ?

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] so you rate Kohli more then Sachin ? Also, did Dhoni not play a clutch innings to win the World Cup for his country?

 

[shaz619]

I seriously question those who keep saying Trolling etc I just don'rate Kohli as an ATG and have repeatedly pointing out my reasons I find it shocking how kids these days are putting him on the pedestal of Ponting, Viv and Sachin; surely you must be trolling or it is just blind fandom

 

[Leeon1994]

Kohli is an ordinary Batsman, Rohit Sharma is a rare talent.

Btw Kohli averages only 47 outside India..

 

[Leeon1994]

I suppose using the same yardstick you will also refuse to rate Anderson as he was brutally exposed in the last series in India in Dec'2016 ?

Please dont talk about pitches in India. They are dead pitches at best tailor made for Indian batsmen and Ashwin.

 

[Abhilash93]

11 fifty plus scores in 34 matches against these teams away is not good enough ?

 

[Tusker]

Please dont talk about pitches in India. They are dead pitches at best tailor made for Indian batsmen and Ashwin.

Lookup McGrath and Gillespie stats in India

 

[ManFan]

McGrath and Gillespie performed despite the flat tracks and spin dust bowls, not because of them. There's a reason why Harbhajan " Slapper " Singh took 30+ wickets in the 2001 series. And you're point also proves why Dravid and Laxman were able to play an ENTIRE day without losing a wicket despite facing Warne, McGrath, Gillespie, and Kasprowicz at the peak of their powers.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

Plain and simply nitpicking

 

[The_Odd_One]

Still averages 43 vs Australia, 50 vs NZ, 73 vs Pakistan, and 47 vs SA in away and neutral games.

Averages 73 in matches won and 90 in matches won chasing.

Yeah, a nothing batsman!

 

[Buffet]

Still averages 43 vs Australia, 50 vs NZ, 73 vs Pakistan, and 47 vs SA in away and neutral games.

Averages 73 in matches won and 90 in matches won chasing.

Yeah, a nothing batsman!

He needs to have 20-25 tons against big teams in their den.

 

[Executioner]

He needs to have 20-25 tons against big teams in their den.

It's his tough luck that his arch rivals just won the CT. Now all of his achievements will be downplayed.

He is 1.5 times as good as any batsman in BD, SL or Pak.

 

[shaz619]

Yes we would select the legend on a minefield against 70/80 WI bowling attack or early 2000's AUS bowling attack on a minefield or high pressure final / scenario over the likes of Sachin, Viv or Ponting.

 

[Buffet]

It's his tough luck that his arch rivals just won the CT. Now all of his achievements will be downplayed.

He is 1.5 times as good as any batsman in BD, SL or Pak.

Downplaying with context is fine.

Using the same criterion,

Lara has 4 tons
SRT has 6 tons
There are only 6 batsmen with more than 6 tons.
Kohli has 4 tons so far and still has long career left....

Clearly making a point about it is fine, but you need to make a point in comparison with others. That's why I said that Kohli needs to have 20-25 tons and it hardly matters if no one in history has more than 10.

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] so you rate Kohli more then Sachin ? Also, did Dhoni not play a clutch innings to win the World Cup for his country?

Kohli hasn't even played half as many matches as Tendulkar played. These days we don't play as many ODIs as we did in the 90s and 00s but he will paly atleast another 100-120 ODI's and will score a lot of runs. Pretty sure he will eventually go down as a better LOI player than Tendulkar and the biggest reason for that is his 2nd inngs record which is already extraordinary.

MSD's WC inngs came in India ... which going by your filters (Away) somehow doesn't count at all. Realize the problem ?

 

[shaz619]

Kohli hasn't even played half as many matches as Tendulkar played. These days we don't play as many ODIs as we did in the 90s and 00s but he will paly atleast another 100-120 ODI's and will score a lot of runs. Pretty sure he will eventually go down as a better LOI player than Tendulkar and the biggest reason for that is his 2nd inngs record which is already extraordinary.

MSD's WC inngs came in India ... which going by your filters (Away) somehow doesn't count at all. Realize the problem ?

People are already calling Kohli an ATG, it is premature in my opinion. And the Indians who watched Sachin bat in the 90's would not even compare the two at this stage. Not sure why people get so heated all the time.

That knock still came in a high pressure scenario and he delivered a prestigious WC for his country after dominance in a 50 over game.

 

[Tusker]

People are already calling Kohli an ATG, it is premature in my opinion. And the Indians who watched Sachin bat in the 90's would not even compare the two at this stage. Not sure why people get so heated all the time.

As I said the main reason is his 2nd inngs record in ODIs + T20Is

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

How can you argue against that record ?

That knock still came in a high pressure scenario and he delivered a prestigious WC for his country after dominance in a 50 over game.

Well then your criteria to determine who is a better player is not entirely accurate isn't it ?

 

[shaz619]

As I said the main reason is his 2nd inngs record in ODIs + T20Is

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

How can you argue against that record ?



Well then your criteria to determine who is a better player is not entirely accurate isn't it ?

I have provided my reasons in the OP with regards to those hundreds and provided context which also appreciates history. If Sir Viv was batting in this era, do you think he'd have a similar record ? does Shehzad and Miandad belong in the same level due to same number of away hundreds?

Your point would stand if Kohli similarly played an impact knock to win his country an ICC Trophy in a 50 overs contest.

 

[Princejain191]

i have read that article - all it says is that more bowlers than ever are bowling 140 kph but that is indeed not the point over here.

speed doesn't equate to quality; that is my actual point to be precise

and even if it did, the past players had plenty of fast bowlers to face. so that argument again becomes null and void.

the dibbly dobbly argument falls by the wayside as well because in case where the pitches are slow, dibbly dobbly bowlers were deadly. we have to go through a list of bowlers who had great economy rate in the past because they were just impossible to get away from.

also the modern era has only replaced the dibbly bowlers with dart throwers.

if u think pandya is a quality bowler because he offers pace, i will have to disagree with you. on true pitches all he does is offer batsmen pace to maneuver with ease and comes on the bat.

look at the bowling averages of the current bowlers and look at their test statistics - these bowlers may be at times quicker but they aren't really skilled to take wickets.

vaas and heath streak among others showed that in order to take wickets, you do not need pace, you need ability and swing, seam, and control is part of that. a morris doesn't have the skill set of heath streak let alone vaas.

just like we adjust inflation for movies that did business in the past, we have to define measures that accurately estimate batting and bowling averages before making sweeping statements. i will be heartbroken when people in the future will say that kohli is a better batsman than tendulkar and i'm not even an indian fan let alone tendulkar.

Agree with the conditions and the rules have made things little easier in modern cricket (otherwise Rohit wouldn't be averaging 40+)

But in my opinion, the aggressive batting quality, and the belief of batsmen have gone to another level in the last 7-8 years. And ODIs have always been about shot-making and confidence, a Gavaskar making 36 off 170 wasn't about the toughness of the pitch or the rules, England made 300+ on the same pitch and for all I know - it was probably a really really flat pitch. The difference is the attitude. Even a 60/4 situation doesn't deter a team from believing they can chase 300+, and whatever the conditions may be - it is a huge deal.

To put it simply, I think Pakistan batting in ODIs offers us a good case of the how that 90s or 80s attitude and style of batting would have fared these days. Yes, rules have helped too, but LOI batting has collectively improved. Earlier, if a team wanted quick runs, they would send the bulkiest guy in the team as a pitch hitter. The fitness regimes of today and the athleticism have meant that most batsmen are capable of that now.

Also, I firmly believe that bowling hasn't in any way deteriorated. But that is a useless debate. The 90s generation talked about the Marshalls, the Holdings, the Garners, the Imrans, Bedi, etc. The 00s talked about the Wasims, the Ambroses, the saqlains, etc and similarly we talk about McGrath, Lee, Donald, Warne.... and so on the next generation will talk about Starc, Boult, Malinga, Tahir, Steyn to put down the quality of bowling in 2020s.

P.S. - If you already know that you could never get yourself to believe Kohli is better than Tendulkar, before Kohli even finishes his career, that is probably biasness - can't help you

 

[Tusker]

McGrath and Gillespie performed despite the flat tracks and spin dust bowls, not because of them. There's a reason why Harbhajan " Slapper " Singh took 30+ wickets in the 2001 series. And you're point also proves why Dravid and Laxman were able to play an ENTIRE day without losing a wicket despite facing Warne, McGrath, Gillespie, and Kasprowicz at the peak of their powers.

If you want to tell a story you need to tell the full story ... for instance exactly how many wkts did a certain Shane Warne take in that series ? Realize the problem ? So my point still stands the Aussie bowlers found ways to be effective in adverse conditions Anderson did not. Warne (And Ponting and Lara) are still Legends despite failing in India repeatedly. Virat will also most probably go down as a ATG if he doesnt do anything stupid.

 

[Tusker]

I have provided my reasons in the OP with regards to those hundreds and provided context which also appreciates history. If Sir Viv was batting in this era, do you think he'd have a similar record ? does Shehzad and Miandad belong in the same level due to same number of away hundreds?

I suggest you take a look at Viv's record against the best bowlers of his time most of who were in his team. There used to be a thread here let me see if I can find it.

Your point would stand if Kohli similarly played an impact knock to win his country an ICC Trophy in a 50 overs contest.

And using that Exact SAME point where do BC Lara , Kallis, Tendulkar , ABD , etc etc , etc stand ?

 

[shaz619]

I suggest you take a look at Viv's record against the best bowlers of his time most of who were in his team. There used to be a thread here let me see if I can find it.



And using that Exact SAME point where do BC Lara , Kallis, Tendulkar , ABD , etc etc , etc stand ?

So you believe Kohli to be better then Sachin, Viv and all the others?

 

[Tusker]

So you believe Kohli to be better then Sachin, Viv and all the others?

Not right now just because he hasnt played enough Tests but you can't argue against his LOI record it is pretty incredible atleast for those who realize how hard it is to make runs chasing.

 

[shaz619]

Not right now just because he hasnt played enough Tests but you can't argue against his LOI record it is pretty incredible atleast for those who realize how hard it is to make runs chasing.

So you are willing to go out on a limb and say that Kohli is a better ODI batsman then those names or belongs at their level ?

Have you also factored in the distinction between the two era's you'd be comparing, high profile pressure contests, quality of the wicket / opposition and technical soundness vs sideways movement ?

I rate him relative to the other batsman in the world and have already said he is better then them, but I stop right there; am not in a hurry to claim he is an ATG in ODI's just yet and nor am I saying he won't get there but it is premature at this stage for me.

 

[Tusker]

So you are willing to go out on a limb and say that Kohli is a better ODI batsman then those names or belongs at their level ?

Have you also factored in the distinction between the two era's you'd be comparing, high profile pressure contests, quality of the wicket / opposition and technical soundness vs sideways movement ?

I rate him relative to the other batsman in the world and have already said he is better then them, but I stop right there; am not in a hurry to claim he is an ATG in ODI's just yet and nor am I saying he won't get there but it is premature at this stage for me.

Virat Kohli is technically far superior to Viv Richards and also plays far more stronger teams than Viv ever did. But Tendulkar was far superior Technically and a tad more gifted but was unfortunately playing for a much weaker team than VK or Viv. I wouldn't say Virat has surpassed SRT yet but he is very very close in ODIs which in itself is astonishing as he has just played 177 ODI inngs. There is no comparison whatsoever when it comes to fitness , drive and mental strength.

 

[light]

I don't understand why all these threads are open against Virat. No other modern batsmen is doing what he is doing on a regular basis - this alone should tell you that batting paradise or not, this fella is a genuinely good batsmen and works hard to back up his talent.

Is he better than Sachin? Hard to compare cause both are playing in a different era with different bowlers (in Sachin's case, he faced better bowlers and had less freedom to take the arial since all these PP back in the days were not a thing)

 

[shaz619]

Congrats Kohli, on another hundred during a chase on a flat pitch against an inferior bowling attack and 9th ranked team [MENTION=136302]Haz95[/MENTION] He has vindicated the OP once again, but sure lets continue to glorify this motorway king because he is better then Viv Richards and one of the all time greats who can deal with any condition or any opposition across all era's.

I also forgot to mention that it was another meaningless encounter. You know what happened in the CT final more recently don't you.......chokey chokey chokey chokey

 

[Bilal7]

Awful. The best ODI batsmen of this decade have definitely been:

1) AB de Villiers
2) Hashim Amla
3) Virat Kohli
4) MS Dhoni

They're best at what they do but each of them has his own weaknesses as well.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

What a cringeworthy thread. Kohli averages less than 40 in only 1 country

 

[thehub]

Please dont talk about pitches in India. They are dead pitches at best tailor made for Indian batsmen and Ashwin.

Yes pitches in England are real pitches but ones in india are fake. Yes England are still our masters and we have to just listen to them.

 

[thehub]

Virat Kohli is technically far superior to Viv Richards and also plays far more stronger teams than Viv ever did. But Tendulkar was far superior Technically and a tad more gifted but was unfortunately playing for a much weaker team than VK or Viv. I wouldn't say Virat has surpassed SRT yet but he is very very close in ODIs which in itself is astonishing as he has just played 177 ODI inngs. There is no comparison whatsoever when it comes to fitness , drive and mental strength.

Perfectly put. People here overrate Viv. With due respect to the legend, he had very average techniques especially very poor defense, hardly played great innings while chasing. Virat has decent techniques, played so many great innings while chasing. Hardly slogs or plays cross bated shots, still having very high strike rate. When you compare career graph between both players, virat was more consistent. Viv too enjoyed scoring heavily against weaker odi teams like England and Slanka. I don't think there was any great odi bowlers outside of Windies those days. Viv fan boys say imran and lillie, but both were not so great odi bowlers. Overall nothing wrong in comparing these two. Virat is miles better than other current players, just like viv was during his time. Only thing that virat needs to correct is score heavily in WC like Sachin. Not just one or two fluke innings in final and semi. Virat still has some time, I am sure he will correct it.

 

[Hasan123]

OP has been exposed in this thread LOL.

Virat may not be the odi goat or he doesn't rate him as an atg that's upto him. But one thing is clear he will finish as an atg.

 

[shaz619]

The greatness of Virat is limited to casual bacha party doing a bhangra over the very hundreds during a chase which the OP has pointed out, this was vindicated more recently when Virat thrived vs a 9th ranked WI's team on a flat pitch during a meaningless encounter with a god awful bowling attack to feast on. But when presented with a challenge in the CT final he jobbed out.