Overall who was a better cricketer? Sachin Tendulkar or Imran Khan?

[Mamoon]

10 Greatest Asian cricketers of all time (2018):

1) Tendulkar
2) Muralitharan
3) Imran
4) Wasim
5) Kohli
6) Gavaskar
7) Sangakkara
8) Dhoni
9) Dravid
10) Miandad

However, I have no doubt in my mind that Kohli will be #1 by the time he retires. It is simply a matter of playing 100+ Tests and 300+ ODIs.

 

[Last Monetarist]

10 Greatest Asian cricketers of all time (2018):

1) Tendulkar
2) Muralitharan
3) Imran
4) Wasim
5) Kohli
6) Gavaskar
7) Sangakkara
8) Dhoni
9) Dravid
10) Miandad

However, I have no doubt in my mind that Kohli will be #1 by the time he retires. It is simply a matter of playing 100+ Tests and 300+ ODIs.

There's no way Kohli is above Gavaskar or Dravid at the moment. I won't have Murali in that list either, given that he was an upmarket version of Saeed Ajmal.

 

[MMHS]

There's no way Kohli is above Gavaskar or Dravid at the moment. I won't have Murali in that list either, given that he was an upmarket version of Saeed Ajmal.

You got into the bait again - putting Kohli at 1, means that pushes Imran & Wasim at 4 & 5

 

[shariqnoor]

Not fair to compare a batter to an all-rounder.

Having said that, Sachin Tendulkar has achieved more as a batter than Imran did as a bowler. Tendulkar has made records in Tests as well as in ODIs that many think cannot be broken despite us living in an age where batting is considered to be relatively easy. For close to two decades, Sachin made those runs against bowling attacks far superior to what we see now.

Imran on the other hand was an ATG bowler for sure but did not end up with record-breaking figures. Also his ODI career isn't that superlative barring a WC win.

But the overall point remains that it is a folly to compare two people who excel in different facets of the game. It's just simply not a straight shootout. If you're creating a World XI, you'd put both of them in the list so it's really difficult to judge who has the most value.

If the question was revised and asked us "Who would you want to be as a cricketer: Sachin or Imran?", then I believe Imran wins this battle. Imran was a charismatic personality who excelled in cricket at almost everything he did. His bowling was always world class but his batting grew leaps and bounds after becoming the captain. His captaincy needs no introduction. Sachin on the other hand could not cut it as a captain. Imran was a complete cricketer.

 

[Mamoon]

There's no way Kohli is above Gavaskar or Dravid at the moment. I won't have Murali in that list either, given that he was an upmarket version of Saeed Ajmal.

I think Kohli has done enough across both Tests and ODIs to be ahead of Gavaskar and Dravid by a nose now.

The legality of Muralitharan’s action is a can of worms that I do not intend to open, but it is hard to argue against 800 Test wickets, and a shoulder and five fingers that carried a bowling attack under immense pressure.

 

[Mamoon]

You got into the bait again - putting Kohli at 1, means that pushes Imran & Wasim at 4 & 5

I accept everything, but I don’t like being called a troll. I try to give my reason(s) for everything I say, and I can explain every ranking in my list.

The reason why I think I will push Kohli to #1 by the end of his career is that I believe that at this rate, he will surpass Tendulkar as Asia’s greatest batsman, which is why it is only logical if I put him above Tendulkar and push everyone else down by one spot.

 

[RainMan_]

Sachin, no competition.

 

[MMHS]

I accept everything, but I don’t like being called a troll. I try to give my reason(s) for everything I say, and I can explain every ranking in my list.

The reason why I think I will push Kohli to #1 by the end of his career is that I believe that at this rate, he will surpass Tendulkar as Asia’s greatest batsman, which is why it is only logical if I put him above Tendulkar and push everyone else down by one spot.

Batting is one part of the game, we are talking about greatest cricketer. This thread isn't about best batsman.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Normally, I don't indulge in such threads, but here you are trying to rile up PAK posters with a flawed logic.

I tell you why from your post - you have put SRT as #1 for his batting, and you think VK will reach there at the end of career, while Murali at 3 - so, top 3 spots goes out of PAK, and Imran, Akram comes down to 4 & 5 - fair enough. But, by your own logic, if you go for spaciest player - by stats, contribution to their team and impact in a game SRT & VK will look like midget to Muralitharan - you can check his numbers, achievements from history and compare that with any cricketer since 1876.

You are not a troll for sure, but it really irritates few of us being here long time in PP, when you try to be one - you are much better than this.

 

[Mamoon]

Batting is one part of the game, we are talking about greatest cricketer. This thread isn't about best batsman.

I had to take into account the all-rounder bias. Otherwise, all the top spots in all ATG lists will be occupied by all-rounders, which is why I have consisted players based on their specialist/primarily skills only, and that is why I have put Asia’s best batsman and best bowler in the top two.

I regret not putting Kapil in there, but I cannot justify leaving anyone out of the list. I also agree that captaincy is a factor, but I don’t blame Tendulkar for failing on that front.

It is not possible to balance the pressure of being captain and being Tendulkar. No player has to deal with as much pressure and expectations as Tendulkar.

 

[MMHS]

I had to take into account the all-rounder bias. Otherwise, all the top spots in all ATG lists will be occupied by all-rounders, which is why I have consisted players based on their specialist/primarily skills only, and that is why I have put Asia’s best batsman and best bowler in the top two.

I regret not putting Kapil in there, but I cannot justify leaving anyone out of the list. I also agree that captaincy is a factor, but I don’t blame Tendulkar for failing on that front.

It is not possible to balance the pressure of being captain and being Tendulkar. No player has to deal with as much pressure and expectations as Tendulkar.

That's bullsh!t - Indian media selling their hero adding some sentiment in it. Do you think, when Mushi played yesterday, expectation was less on him? Or do you think, since he comes from a Country of 200K people, Viv Richards didn't face the pressure of expectation? Or these Ice Land players just went for their summer vacation in Russia because expectation of 350K hardly matters.

Tendulkar failed as a Captain because he couldn't manage himself as a leader of the team & being best player - which Imran did and did astonishingly, raising his game several level - there is nothing about managing expectation here. You are insulting hundreds of players (not only in cricket) here to back your flawed logic, taking advantage of India's 1.4 billion numbers - when a player wears his national color, it's his ultimate honor, he is playing for his country, for him self - doesn't matter how many cheering for him. In that regard Baichung Bhutia must have faced more pressure than Lionel Messi.

Coming to top position, you are again taking an usual cheap shot at Khan - not every all-rounder is considered as top player and not every all-rounder is Imran Khan. By your logic, we can argue that if we consider all-rounder in this context, actually Hardik Pandeya will come close to Virat Kohli, because Kohli can't bowl like him, Hardik can't bat like Kohli and both are good at field - fair comparison?

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Who is the better politician?

Khan or SRT should be a more relevant question now.

 

[Bilal7]

Very interested in reading views of people posting in this thread on Kallis-Akram comparison.

One Pakistani involved but roles are reversed.

Now the Pakistani is specialist popular player being compared to an all rounder with ATG stats.

Kallis > Akram in test cricket. There are no questions about that. However, this is a closer comparison than Imran and Sachin's since Kallis is not as great an all-rounder as Imran but Wasim is on par with Sachin as a specialist.

 

[DRsohail]

That's bullsh!t - Indian media selling their hero adding some sentiment in it. Do you think, when Mushi played yesterday, expectation was less on him? Or do you think, since he comes from a Country of 200K people, Viv Richards didn't face the pressure of expectation? Or these Ice Land players just went for their summer vacation in Russia because expectation of 350K hardly matters.

Tendulkar failed as a Captain because he couldn't manage himself as a leader of the team & being best player - which Imran did and did astonishingly, raising his game several level - there is nothing about managing expectation here. You are insulting hundreds of players (not only in cricket) here to back your flawed logic, taking advantage of India's 1.4 billion numbers - when a player wears his national color, it's his ultimate honor, he is playing for his country, for him self - doesn't matter how many cheering for him. In that regard Baichung Bhutia must have faced more pressure than Lionel Messi.

Coming to top position, you are again taking an usual cheap shot at Khan - not every all-rounder is considered as top player and not every all-rounder is Imran Khan. By your logic, we can argue that if we consider all-rounder in this context, actually Hardik Pandeya will come close to Virat Kohli, because Kohli can't bowl like him, Hardik can't bat like Kohli and both are good at field - fair comparison?

What a strike from GREAT [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]...it was perfect to show some people how biased they can be,not taking anything away from Sachin the great.

 

[Last Monetarist]

I think Kohli has done enough across both Tests and ODIs to be ahead of Gavaskar and Dravid by a nose now.

The legality of Muralitharan’s action is a can of worms that I do not intend to open, but it is hard to argue against 800 Test wickets, and a shoulder and five fingers that carried a bowling attack under immense pressure.

Mate come on, I've said before you're one of the best posters on this forum, but Virat Kohli hasn't achieved anything at all in test cricket to be considered an Indian ATG let alone one of the greatest of all time from Asia. There are no iconic series performances like Gavaskar against the West Indies or England back in the seventies, or any classic matchwinning innings away from home like Dravid played during the first part of this century. You contradict yourself by highlighting Murali's statistics as your rationale for his inclusion in the list. Kohli hasn't even achieved half of what Gavaskar or Dravid attained against some of the best bowlers to have ever played this sport. Both Gavaskar and Dravid are part of the history books as certifiable greats. If you're going to bring in his impact in limited overs cricket, I'd wager Kohli isn't even close to the likes of Jayasuriya or De Silva, who are not even on this list. It's not just a case of looking at the numbers and making an ineluctable judgment. I understand the amusement you get from riling up the jingoistic Pakistan supporters on this forum, but don't forsake good sense in that pursuit.

 

[Monsee]

My ranking of these four would be:-Wasim/Tendulkar
Imran
Kallis

Ofcourse, Imran after being a legendary cricketer, is now the PM of Pakistan and hence his popularity has no match.

Unfortunate but there are people like us who struggle to achieve greatness in one field but Imran has done it as a cricketer and now as a politician as well.

LOL, even Pakistanis will not put Akram ahead of Imran, even in some cases ahead of Waqar in tests! And then theren is a matter of some others like Miandada and Inzi who might be rated higher than Akram by quite a few Pakistanis!

Akram for all his talent, never outshone at any stage, actually his test numbers are quite average to be honest!

 

[Monsee]

No asian batsman has more than 2 centuries in winning cause in SENA.
Making centuries in those countries and that to winning ones is not a child's play.
Which asian batsman do you consider as a better match winner than srt?

Inzamam has 3 centuries (in won matches) in those countries and at least one 93* against SA which helped Pak win as well, LOL, not gonna say it but your comments say it all who the better match winner was!

And this link helps shed some light as well, too bad Mr. tendulkar is no where to be found: ARTICLE LINK

 

[Dr_Bassim]

If I had to do an honest shoot out as best cricketer ever I'd rank them like this.

1. Bradman
2. Tendulkar
3. Marshall
4. Imran Khan/Sobers.
5. Sobers/Imran Khan.

I think if someone changes the rankings from above to Tendulkar to 1 instead of Bradman or Imran from 4 to 1 instead of Bradman, they are incredibly biased.

These rankings will exist forever, till someone better comes along and changes everything.

 

[Bhaijaan]

If I had to do an honest shoot out as best cricketer ever I'd rank them like this.

1. Bradman
2. Tendulkar
3. Marshall
4. Imran Khan/Sobers.
5. Sobers/Imran Khan.

I think if someone changes the rankings from above to Tendulkar to 1 instead of Bradman or Imran from 4 to 1 instead of Bradman, they are incredibly biased.

These rankings will exist forever, till someone better comes along and changes everything.

Fair comments as well. Though there is no real ranking of overall cricketers as such.

What matters is where you stand in your discipline.

When you talk about the greatest test fast bowlers Imran's name will be taken respectfully but not prominently. Marshal, McGrath, Lillee, Steyn overwhelmingly dominate discussions.

In ODIs it is even worse for Imran where his own countrymen Wasim, Waqar and dare i say even Akhtar is mentioned more prominently in discussions.

Clearly a far greater test player.

1992 was great but to big him up as an ODI player with one trophy is too desperate for attention. Kapil clearly scores over him as an ODI AR.

Tendulkar makes more top 5s in batting discussions for both tests and ODIs than Inran does as a bowler.

People bringing up the overall package poi t again and again have nothing to add to the Kallis-Akram thread and have conveniently ignored it.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

The problem is that whenever I don't put Imran at the very top in any list, you assume that it is because of my personal grudge against him, even though I have explained multiple times that I consider Imran the politician and Imran the cricketer as two distinct personalities, and neither have a bearing over the other.

I don't want to say anything about his politics here, but as a cricketer, I consider him to be the greatest Asian all-rounder of all time, a top five Test bowler of all time and probably second only to Sobers as an all-rounder in history. Is this not high enough praise? Anyway, I can only explain myself and not change your mind. That is your prerogative, you can think and say what you want. No issues from my side.

As far as managing pressure and expectations are concerned, at least you could have come up with better examples. Mushfiq? Viv Richards and Iceland?

Mushfiq is not head and shoulders above his teammates and you already explained the second part. Viv Richards spent his pomp in arguably the greatest team of all time, and not a single Iceland fan thought that they could win the World Cup. The Iceland players probably had no pressure of expectations on them at all.

Tendulkar had the spotlight on him since he was 16, and when a billion people give you the status of God, you cannot perform like a mere mortal. No individual player in history of cricket has had to deal with the amount of pressure that Tendulkar had to, that too for a long period of time.

You say he failed as captain because he couldn't manage and not because the pressure of being Tendulkar was too much for him, and I accept that, but we also need to understand that success of captain is often circumstantial. Same Tendulkar might have done well as captain in another context and in another situation.

I will give you a contemporary example - Azhar Ali vs Sarfraz. There is no doubt that Sarfraz is a far better captain and leader, but Azhar Ali led Pakistan for 15 consecutive ODIs against full-strength English and Australian teams. How do you think Sarfraz would fare as captain in a situation like that? Keep in mind he couldn't even handle 5 ODIs against New Zealand in spite of having the Champions Trophy momentum on his side, and Azhar has won plenty of games against weak opponents.

The moral of the story is not to show that Sarfraz is not a better captain, but to illustrate that there are more factors to success and failure as captain than individual capacity only.

As I said, I can explain each and every position in my list - Tendulkar is a genuine contender for a top 2-3 position in all-time Test and ODI rankings. Imran is certainly up there in Tests, but he is not top 2-3 material in ODIs. You are right about Muralitharan, but the reason I put him below Tendulkar is because of the weight of expectations and pressure on Tendulkar were more.

The dynamics of Sri Lankan and Indian cricket are different, and both nations have different temperaments as well. If Tendulkar was Sri Lankan, he wouldn't be worshipped, but if Muralitharan was Indian, his status would have been different today.

Not sure what was your point behind the example of Pandya in relation to Kohli. Yes both are probably equal in the field, but Pandya's batting or bowling is nowhere near Kohli's, so again, you could have come up with a better example.

 

[Mamoon]

Mate come on, I've said before you're one of the best posters on this forum, but Virat Kohli hasn't achieved anything at all in test cricket to be considered an Indian ATG let alone one of the greatest of all time from Asia. There are no iconic series performances like Gavaskar against the West Indies or England back in the seventies, or any classic matchwinning innings away from home like Dravid played during the first part of this century. You contradict yourself by highlighting Murali's statistics as your rationale for his inclusion in the list. Kohli hasn't even achieved half of what Gavaskar or Dravid attained against some of the best bowlers to have ever played this sport. Both Gavaskar and Dravid are part of the history books as certifiable greats. If you're going to bring in his impact in limited overs cricket, I'd wager Kohli isn't even close to the likes of Jayasuriya or De Silva, who are not even on this list. It's not just a case of looking at the numbers and making an ineluctable judgment. I understand the amusement you get from riling up the jingoistic Pakistan supporters on this forum, but don't forsake good sense in that pursuit.

This is not a Test only list, but I have put Kohli at number 6 because of the Test weightage. He is not a legendary Test player yet, but he is on his way. If this was an ODI list, I would put him at the top along with Wasim.

I can understand why some people will still put Gavaskar and Dravid ahead of him taking into factor both formats, but Jayasuriya and Aravinda? C'mon, you lost me there. I am a big admirer of both, both Kohli is a level or two above both batsmen in all formats of the game.

As an ODI batsman, I would put him second only to Viv at this point, and the only thing missing is a big World Cup. If he can check that box as well, he'd have done more than any ODI batsman in history. What lack of impact?

He has redefined the art of chasing. There has never been anyone like him before - we have had ODI batsmen who could anchor the innings and ODI batsmen who could finish the job, but he is the first top-order batsman who is also a deadly finisher - in some ways, he is Ponting/Tendulkar and Bevan/Dhoni rolled into one. ODI cricket hasn't seen a batsman like him before who could grab the game by the ball and run away with it as consistently as Kohli does.

He is a massive impact player and the only thing missing - as I mentioned earlier - is a dominant World Cup or a big knockout performance, and considering he probably has two more World Cups in him, I won't put it past him. Seriously though, there is no objective reasoning to why someone like Aravinda and Sanath should still be ranked above him in the all-time list of greatest Asian cricketers.

Not that I underrate both - Aravinda is the second greatest Sri Lankan batsman ever, and Sanath is probably the second best ODI opener of all time along with Gilchrist.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

The problem is that whenever I don't put Imran at the very top in any list, you assume that it is because of my personal grudge against him, even though I have explained multiple times that I consider Imran the politician and Imran the cricketer as two distinct personalities, and neither have a bearing over the other.

I don't want to say anything about his politics here, but as a cricketer, I consider him to be the greatest Asian all-rounder of all time, a top five Test bowler of all time and probably second only to Sobers as an all-rounder in history. Is this not high enough praise? Anyway, I can only explain myself and not change your mind. That is your prerogative, you can think and say what you want. No issues from my side.

As far as managing pressure and expectations are concerned, at least you could have come up with better examples. Mushfiq? Viv Richards and Iceland?

Mushfiq is not head and shoulders above his teammates and you already explained the second part. Viv Richards spent his pomp in arguably the greatest team of all time, and not a single Iceland fan thought that they could win the World Cup. The Iceland players probably had no pressure of expectations on them at all.

Tendulkar had the spotlight on him since he was 16, and when a billion people give you the status of God, you cannot perform like a mere mortal. No individual player in history of cricket has had to deal with the amount of pressure that Tendulkar had to, that too for a long period of time.

You say he failed as captain because he couldn't manage and not because the pressure of being Tendulkar was too much for him, and I accept that, but we also need to understand that success of captain is often circumstantial. Same Tendulkar might have done well as captain in another context and in another situation.

I will give you a contemporary example - Azhar Ali vs Sarfraz. There is no doubt that Sarfraz is a far better captain and leader, but Azhar Ali led Pakistan for 15 consecutive ODIs against full-strength English and Australian teams. How do you think Sarfraz would fare as captain in a situation like that? Keep in mind he couldn't even handle 5 ODIs against New Zealand in spite of having the Champions Trophy momentum on his side, and Azhar has won plenty of games against weak opponents.

The moral of the story is not to show that Sarfraz is not a better captain, but to illustrate that there are more factors to success and failure as captain than individual capacity only.

As I said, I can explain each and every position in my list - Tendulkar is a genuine contender for a top 2-3 position in all-time Test and ODI rankings. Imran is certainly up there in Tests, but he is not top 2-3 material in ODIs. You are right about Muralitharan, but the reason I put him below Tendulkar is because of the weight of expectations and pressure on Tendulkar were more.

The dynamics of Sri Lankan and Indian cricket are different, and both nations have different temperaments as well. If Tendulkar was Sri Lankan, he wouldn't be worshipped, but if Muralitharan was Indian, his status would have been different today.

Not sure what was your point behind the example of Pandya in relation to Kohli. Yes both are probably equal in the field, but Pandya's batting or bowling is nowhere near Kohli's, so again, you could have come up with a better example.

No bro, I have to disagree with your first part - you have a genuine HATE against Imran and I am really surprised why, considering that he is also a Pathan. Interestingly, I have seen genuine grudge against another Peshawar guy, who is truly a Test ATG on his own right - Younis Khan. And, I have been in PP for over a decade now - I have seen your genuine attempt to defame each & every PAK sports great here; may be you love to be stand out in a forum or love to rile up people.

Coming to Imran, you have genuine HATE for him, trust me - I haven't seen anyone in my long life of blogging, someone trying to defame own National hero like you. May be you are personally related with him or your family/you might have suffered from his acts, I don't know. I give two examples - just few days back regarding nepotism, you took the chance to defame him, suggesting that Imran Khan might not have even played for PAK without his cousin Mazid & family back-up. For someone else, I could have taken it simply as ignorance, but not for you Mamoon.

If anything, that one Test in 1971 actually had defamed his legacy, otherwise he played one Test and found that he wasn't good enough - spent 3 years in Counties & Oxford to upgrade him and make back as Imran Khan on his own right and stayed there for 2 decades as the original King Khan. It would have been nepotism, had he been playing round and gradually reach his peak, but guy was too classy, too stubborn & too arrogant to feed on favor & remain mediocre.

I can go back few years and waste some of my time to fetch your Posts from Time Pass .... regarding Imran's political career, his prospect ... up to Arvind Kejriwal ..... now Donald Trump. In your hate, you didn't notice one thing - in a 3rd world country with 6th largest population and very little democratic practices among the people, this guy reached the top from ZERO in 20 years, in a political environment dominated by legacy, family dominance, corruption and illegal money. And, now you are trying to give idea that PAK Army put him as dummy PM (which he could have been 10-12 years back), otherwise people of PAK were queuing to bring back Mian Sharif once more - this is not defame, pure HATE. From this only you should realize that Imran Khan was as different beast than that 1971 tour.

Coming to the other part of your post, you have given some nice logic on my points, great job - BUT, categorically avoided the only small part that mentions Baichung Bhutia & Lionel Messi - I guess, it explains something else as well.

You may disagree or hurt from my post, but don't get upset - I have no stake here and I write what I see, probably that is one reason people might agree, disagree with me, that's part of blogger's life - BUT, people won't ignore me.

Anyway, start of a busy week - I think, we should stop here. These are subjective calls and everyone is entitled to own opinion.

 

[Hitman]

Even Greg Chappell, whom Sachin has had a sour relationship with, said the following in his book -

"When the team travelled, he would snap on his headphones, not look sideways, and shut it all out. Not even Don Bradman carried expectations like this, and Sachin had been bearing it since 1989.

"He just couldn't get any rest. Once we were talking ... and I said, 'You must have so many friends, it must be hard finding time to keep in touch with all of them'. He looked me in the eye and said, 'Greg, you would have more friends in India than I've got'," Chappell writes

 

[Bhaijaan]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

Very unfair of you to be attacking Mamoon. The same could be said about you and me for different players in different threads.

To his credit Mamoon always backs up his comments with some analysis.

I dont think Mamoon needs any attention or feels the need to rile people up. He puts it across the way he truly feels from his heart and he is truly one of the nost genuine amd consistent posters around here.

Imran and Sachin are two huge names. Not a thing changes for them based on what is written over here about them.

 

[Hitman]

LOL, some posts just age so well and anyways the claim about Ashwin's batting alone being better than Imran is crazy; let's not even discuss the bowling bit as evidenced in the last few series how Ashwin might as well never be picked in an away series outside Asia and WI.

Imran's 1 test innings where he scored a century (123) against the best WI attack (ever) when rest of the Pak team was falling like nine pins is better than any innings Mr. Ashwin Bradman has ever played or will do in future! This does not mean Imran didn't play any other good/great innings, but that right there is something the batsman can never dream of achieveing.

As for bowling, I can't even bring myself to compare a bowler who won Pak games on his own in England, Australia, and WI (3 games, 3 10+ wicket hauls), let alone any other of his many bowling feats against a bowler who is actually dropped to pick a darter like Jadeja when outside his Indian Pitches (comfort) zone!

Are you sure you are prepared to face this embarrassing point of yours? ) )

 

[Hitman]

I remember a certain poster by the name of Farhad years ago. He was boasting how a writer of WISDEN once claimed that Imran would be the captain of the World XI that WISDEN would once pick some day. Forget about being the captain, he couldn't even find a place in their All Time XI

 

[saadsahabjee]

Ik.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

Very unfair of you to be attacking Mamoon. The same could be said about you and me for different players in different threads.

To his credit Mamoon always backs up his comments with some analysis.

I dont think Mamoon needs any attention or feels the need to rile people up. He puts it across the way he truly feels from his heart and he is truly one of the nost genuine amd consistent posters around here.

Imran and Sachin are two huge names. Not a thing changes for them based on what is written over here about them.

I didn't attack him bhaijaaaaaaan. How can I - Mamoon is the most popular poster here among non Pakistani members and I am one of them.

 

[happydavy]

One should check out the different dream XIs chosen by great cricketers, I think lords fb page has 20+ of those XIs. 90% have Tendulkar in it, while no one baring Wasim's or ramiz raza's XI had Imran in it. I think that answers the question what the world thinks about the 2 players.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

The problem is that whenever I don't put Imran at the very top in any list, you assume that it is because of my personal grudge against him, even though I have explained multiple times that I consider Imran the politician and Imran the cricketer as two distinct personalities, and neither have a bearing over the other.

I don't want to say anything about his politics here, but as a cricketer, I consider him to be the greatest Asian all-rounder of all time, a top five Test bowler of all time and probably second only to Sobers as an all-rounder in history. Is this not high enough praise? Anyway, I can only explain myself and not change your mind. That is your prerogative, you can think and say what you want. No issues from my side.

As far as managing pressure and expectations are concerned, at least you could have come up with better examples. Mushfiq? Viv Richards and Iceland?

Mushfiq is not head and shoulders above his teammates and you already explained the second part. Viv Richards spent his pomp in arguably the greatest team of all time, and not a single Iceland fan thought that they could win the World Cup. The Iceland players probably had no pressure of expectations on them at all.

Tendulkar had the spotlight on him since he was 16, and when a billion people give you the status of God, you cannot perform like a mere mortal. No individual player in history of cricket has had to deal with the amount of pressure that Tendulkar had to, that too for a long period of time.

You say he failed as captain because he couldn't manage and not because the pressure of being Tendulkar was too much for him, and I accept that, but we also need to understand that success of captain is often circumstantial. Same Tendulkar might have done well as captain in another context and in another situation.

I will give you a contemporary example - Azhar Ali vs Sarfraz. There is no doubt that Sarfraz is a far better captain and leader, but Azhar Ali led Pakistan for 15 consecutive ODIs against full-strength English and Australian teams. How do you think Sarfraz would fare as captain in a situation like that? Keep in mind he couldn't even handle 5 ODIs against New Zealand in spite of having the Champions Trophy momentum on his side, and Azhar has won plenty of games against weak opponents.

The moral of the story is not to show that Sarfraz is not a better captain, but to illustrate that there are more factors to success and failure as captain than individual capacity only.

As I said, I can explain each and every position in my list - Tendulkar is a genuine contender for a top 2-3 position in all-time Test and ODI rankings. Imran is certainly up there in Tests, but he is not top 2-3 material in ODIs. You are right about Muralitharan, but the reason I put him below Tendulkar is because of the weight of expectations and pressure on Tendulkar were more.

The dynamics of Sri Lankan and Indian cricket are different, and both nations have different temperaments as well. If Tendulkar was Sri Lankan, he wouldn't be worshipped, but if Muralitharan was Indian, his status would have been different today.

Not sure what was your point behind the example of Pandya in relation to Kohli. Yes both are probably equal in the field, but Pandya's batting or bowling is nowhere near Kohli's, so again, you could have come up with a better example.

The use of word God with capital G is just wrong here, on so many level.

For the billion he is a god (devta) and not the God (Ishwar). Maybe someone with knowledge regarding Hinduism can correct me if I'm wrong; and my deepest apologies if I'm offending someone.

That said, not trying to judge here or anything.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

No bro, I have to disagree with your first part - you have a genuine HATE against Imran and I am really surprised why, considering that he is also a Pathan. Interestingly, I have seen genuine grudge against another Peshawar guy, who is truly a Test ATG on his own right - Younis Khan. And, I have been in PP for over a decade now - I have seen your genuine attempt to defame each & every PAK sports great here; may be you love to be stand out in a forum or love to rile up people.

Coming to Imran, you have genuine HATE for him, trust me - I haven't seen anyone in my long life of blogging, someone trying to defame own National hero like you. May be you are personally related with him or your family/you might have suffered from his acts, I don't know. I give two examples - just few days back regarding nepotism, you took the chance to defame him, suggesting that Imran Khan might not have even played for PAK without his cousin Mazid & family back-up. For someone else, I could have taken it simply as ignorance, but not for you Mamoon.

If anything, that one Test in 1971 actually had defamed his legacy, otherwise he played one Test and found that he wasn't good enough - spent 3 years in Counties & Oxford to upgrade him and make back as Imran Khan on his own right and stayed there for 2 decades as the original King Khan. It would have been nepotism, had he been playing round and gradually reach his peak, but guy was too classy, too stubborn & too arrogant to feed on favor & remain mediocre.

I can go back few years and waste some of my time to fetch your Posts from Time Pass .... regarding Imran's political career, his prospect ... up to Arvind Kejriwal ..... now Donald Trump. In your hate, you didn't notice one thing - in a 3rd world country with 6th largest population and very little democratic practices among the people, this guy reached the top from ZERO in 20 years, in a political environment dominated by legacy, family dominance, corruption and illegal money. And, now you are trying to give idea that PAK Army put him as dummy PM (which he could have been 10-12 years back), otherwise people of PAK were queuing to bring back Mian Sharif once more - this is not defame, pure HATE. From this only you should realize that Imran Khan was as different beast than that 1971 tour.

Coming to the other part of your post, you have given some nice logic on my points, great job - BUT, categorically avoided the only small part that mentions Baichung Bhutia & Lionel Messi - I guess, it explains something else as well.

You may disagree or hurt from my post, but don't get upset - I have no stake here and I write what I see, probably that is one reason people might agree, disagree with me, that's part of blogger's life - BUT, people won't ignore me.

Anyway, start of a busy week - I think, we should stop here. These are subjective calls and everyone is entitled to own opinion.

He hates Junaid Khan as well.

Exposing his hate like a champ there [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

 

[Bhaijaan]

In LOIs yeah you could say Sachin is ahead but in terms of what they bring to the table overall as cricketers I don't think the gap is that huge. Sachin for instance would have never managed to pull off a '92 like Imran did. That's the stuff of legends.

Sachin is not just ahead in LOIs he is in a different planet.

What did Imran pull off in 1992? As a player he had a very average world cup by all means. I don't even see him featuring prominently either as a batsman or bowler in 1992 world cup.

I hope you are aware if not for sheer luck Pakistan were not making the semis that world cup?

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Sachin is not just ahead in LOIs he is in a different planet.

What did Imran pull off in 1992? As a player he had a very average world cup by all means. I don't even see him featuring prominently either as a batsman or bowler in 1992 world cup.

I hope you are aware if not for sheer luck Pakistan were not making the semis that world cup?

This debate can be endless.

The '11 world cup: India(SRT) were lucky with the delay in DRS decision and three dropped catches. (Not trying to derail the thread).

Etc etc.

The fact, tho, remains IK inspired the team and they won the cup.

India, otoh, were at home and one can say SRT rode on MSD's back.

 

[ManFan]

Sachin is not just ahead in LOIs he is in a different planet.

What did Imran pull off in 1992? As a player he had a very average world cup by all means. I don't even see him featuring prominently either as a batsman or bowler in 1992 world cup.

I hope you are aware if not for sheer luck Pakistan were not making the semis that world cup?

Sachin made two centuries in 2011, one of which resulted in a loss and the other in a tie.

His contributions were in the SF where he made 85 after mutliple dropped catches and two LBW shouts and in the QF where Yuvraj, MS, and Gambhir also scored 50’s.

He failed in the Final, again.

Imran may have had a mediocore tournament as a player but he scored 72 when the side was two down for not too many in the Final.

It’s fitting that he took the final wicket for his side to win the Cup.

The notion of “luck” or “fluke” is involved in every sport in every notion. To argue about it favoring a result is futile.

 

[DRsohail]

No bro, I have to disagree with your first part - you have a genuine HATE against Imran and I am really surprised why, considering that he is also a Pathan. Interestingly, I have seen genuine grudge against another Peshawar guy, who is truly a Test ATG on his own right - Younis Khan. And, I have been in PP for over a decade now - I have seen your genuine attempt to defame each & every PAK sports great here; may be you love to be stand out in a forum or love to rile up people.

Coming to Imran, you have genuine HATE for him, trust me - I haven't seen anyone in my long life of blogging, someone trying to defame own National hero like you. May be you are personally related with him or your family/you might have suffered from his acts, I don't know. I give two examples - just few days back regarding nepotism, you took the chance to defame him, suggesting that Imran Khan might not have even played for PAK without his cousin Mazid & family back-up. For someone else, I could have taken it simply as ignorance, but not for you Mamoon.

If anything, that one Test in 1971 actually had defamed his legacy, otherwise he played one Test and found that he wasn't good enough - spent 3 years in Counties & Oxford to upgrade him and make back as Imran Khan on his own right and stayed there for 2 decades as the original King Khan. It would have been nepotism, had he been playing round and gradually reach his peak, but guy was too classy, too stubborn & too arrogant to feed on favor & remain mediocre.

I can go back few years and waste some of my time to fetch your Posts from Time Pass .... regarding Imran's political career, his prospect ... up to Arvind Kejriwal ..... now Donald Trump. In your hate, you didn't notice one thing - in a 3rd world country with 6th largest population and very little democratic practices among the people, this guy reached the top from ZERO in 20 years, in a political environment dominated by legacy, family dominance, corruption and illegal money. And, now you are trying to give idea that PAK Army put him as dummy PM (which he could have been 10-12 years back), otherwise people of PAK were queuing to bring back Mian Sharif once more - this is not defame, pure HATE. From this only you should realize that Imran Khan was as different beast than that 1971 tour.

Coming to the other part of your post, you have given some nice logic on my points, great job - BUT, categorically avoided the only small part that mentions Baichung Bhutia & Lionel Messi - I guess, it explains something else as well.

You may disagree or hurt from my post, but don't get upset - I have no stake here and I write what I see, probably that is one reason people might agree, disagree with me, that's part of blogger's life - BUT, people won't ignore me.

Anyway, start of a busy week - I think, we should stop here. These are subjective calls and everyone is entitled to own opinion.

You wre brutally honest,,,our doctor bro eally hates Khan and i can swear,,i can say that sometimes i feel he is having some psychiatric problem from whatever i have studied in my field...the rest is ture as well what you said,,,not necessary to mention i have been a student here to learn from you and many more here on pp.

 

[Peshwa]

Sachin made two centuries in 2011, one of which resulted in a loss and the other in a tie.

His contributions were in the SF where he made 85 after mutliple dropped catches and two LBW shouts and in the QF where Yuvraj, MS, and Gambhir also scored 50’s.

He failed in the Final, again.

Imran may have had a mediocore tournament as a player but he scored 72 when the side was two down for not too many in the Final.

It’s fitting that he took the final wicket for his side to win the Cup.

The notion of “luck” or “fluke” is involved in every sport in every notion. To argue about it favoring a result is futile.

Sachin scored 2nd highest runs in 2011WC
Now dont start with runs in knock out match only count logic

 

[Dr_Bassim]

No bro, I have to disagree with your first part - you have a genuine HATE against Imran and I am really surprised why, considering that he is also a Pathan. Interestingly, I have seen genuine grudge against another Peshawar guy, who is truly a Test ATG on his own right - Younis Khan. And, I have been in PP for over a decade now - I have seen your genuine attempt to defame each & every PAK sports great here; may be you love to be stand out in a forum or love to rile up people.

Coming to Imran, you have genuine HATE for him, trust me - I haven't seen anyone in my long life of blogging, someone trying to defame own National hero like you. May be you are personally related with him or your family/you might have suffered from his acts, I don't know. I give two examples - just few days back regarding nepotism, you took the chance to defame him, suggesting that Imran Khan might not have even played for PAK without his cousin Mazid & family back-up. For someone else, I could have taken it simply as ignorance, but not for you Mamoon.

If anything, that one Test in 1971 actually had defamed his legacy, otherwise he played one Test and found that he wasn't good enough - spent 3 years in Counties & Oxford to upgrade him and make back as Imran Khan on his own right and stayed there for 2 decades as the original King Khan. It would have been nepotism, had he been playing round and gradually reach his peak, but guy was too classy, too stubborn & too arrogant to feed on favor & remain mediocre.

I can go back few years and waste some of my time to fetch your Posts from Time Pass .... regarding Imran's political career, his prospect ... up to Arvind Kejriwal ..... now Donald Trump. In your hate, you didn't notice one thing - in a 3rd world country with 6th largest population and very little democratic practices among the people, this guy reached the top from ZERO in 20 years, in a political environment dominated by legacy, family dominance, corruption and illegal money. And, now you are trying to give idea that PAK Army put him as dummy PM (which he could have been 10-12 years back), otherwise people of PAK were queuing to bring back Mian Sharif once more - this is not defame, pure HATE. From this only you should realize that Imran Khan was as different beast than that 1971 tour.

Coming to the other part of your post, you have given some nice logic on my points, great job - BUT, categorically avoided the only small part that mentions Baichung Bhutia & Lionel Messi - I guess, it explains something else as well.

You may disagree or hurt from my post, but don't get upset - I have no stake here and I write what I see, probably that is one reason people might agree, disagree with me, that's part of blogger's life - BUT, people won't ignore me.

Anyway, start of a busy week - I think, we should stop here. These are subjective calls and everyone is entitled to own opinion.

After reading this, i have to say you both are at opposite poles regarding Imran.

While he might not like Imran, you seem to fawn over everything he does or has done from cricket to politics.

If you were a Pakistani, I would completely understand.

But as a Bangladeshi its rare to find a man exulting over Imran the politician and showering him adulation and accolades that he probably doesnt even deserve.

 

[MMHS]

After reading this, i have to say you both are at opposite poles regarding Imran.

While he might not like Imran, you seem to fawn over everything he does or has done from cricket to politics.

If you were a Pakistani, I would completely understand.

But as a Bangladeshi its rare to find a man exulting over Imran the politician and showering him adulation and accolades that he probably doesnt even deserve.

I grew up in AUS & UK watching two players - Imran & Viv, therefore there is a first love issue from boyhood. Imran the player was probably more popular in India than any Indian player, and you’ll be surprised to listen AUS players of 70s, 80s (who were really mean to praise about other players) about Imran - therefore I might not be the only one who is a bit impressed with his cricket & persona. Imran the politician has absolutely no place in my life - apart from his first speech I even didn’t read any of his political news or bother to post on any of his political issues. Hardly ever in last 10 years - you can check.

Coming to the accolades, I think he deserved more than what he has got. I subscribe at least 20 different global online news channels and more or less I am sure more people were aware of his political success (PM of PAK) than they knew country PAK in details before. It’s like, PAK is introduced through him to people around globe who had totally different identity of PAK. He gave a lot of credibility & respect to the position of PAK PM, though it should have been other way.

Now for the poles, I think I am perfectly balanced and attributing just fair amount what he deserves. I have written many times that my mvp of cricket are fast bowling all rounders, who makes the team on bowling merit & can contribute with bat - this guy was world no. 1 fast bowler at 35, and he could have batted at 5 for any team in 80s, the toughest era of cricket. Add to that leadership....

You see, I myself is a BIG fan of Kapil & Botham - 1st one for ODI & 2nd for Test, in their best few years. You’ll find many people rating Kapil as a better ODI all-rounder and Botham to be more impactful in his best 5 years - no issues there; you’ll hardly see me writing against that, unless people starts to twist facts, or hide something deliberately.

But, not in PP, in PAK, in cricket world, in entire living world, even among people living till 2005 - those who have seen both playing, you’ll not see a 2nd man who’ll pick Abdur Razzak in PAK’s all-time ODI XI for his “impact”, and completely dropping Imran from XI........ 2nd man, because 1st & only one is Mamoon - that’s pure HATE.

I hope it clears my stand on this.

 

[waleed88]

We can talk about the prolonged debates and everybody has their favorites, but in all cricketing fraternities and ranks by the top elites, Sachin has always been above Imran in all the rankings of all the greatest players to have graced the game ever.

 

[waleed88]

Imran was a great of his time, and certainly one of the best in his era.. but the thing about time is its removes the good and the bad from all our minds...Imran wasn't a great enough player to remain in the minds of the International cricketing diaspora despite what many Pakistanis try to big him up as...

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I grew up in AUS & UK watching two players - Imran & Viv, therefore there is a first love issue from boyhood. Imran the player was probably more popular in India than any Indian player, and you’ll be surprised to listen AUS players of 70s, 80s (who were really mean to praise about other players) about Imran - therefore I might not be the only one who is a bit impressed with his cricket & persona. Imran the politician has absolutely no place in my life - apart from his first speech I even didn’t read any of his political news or bother to post on any of his political issues. Hardly ever in last 10 years - you can check.

Coming to the accolades, I think he deserved more than what he has got. I subscribe at least 20 different global online news channels and more or less I am sure more people were aware of his political success (PM of PAK) than they knew country PAK in details before. It’s like, PAK is introduced through him to people around globe who had totally different identity of PAK. He gave a lot of credibility & respect to the position of PAK PM, though it should have been other way.

Now for the poles, I think I am perfectly balanced and attributing just fair amount what he deserves. I have written many times that my mvp of cricket are fast bowling all rounders, who makes the team on bowling merit & can contribute with bat - this guy was world no. 1 fast bowler at 35, and he could have batted at 5 for any team in 80s, the toughest era of cricket. Add to that leadership....

You see, I myself is a BIG fan of Kapil & Botham - 1st one for ODI & 2nd for Test, in their best few years. You’ll find many people rating Kapil as a better ODI all-rounder and Botham to be more impactful in his best 5 years - no issues there; you’ll hardly see me writing against that, unless people starts to twist facts, or hide something deliberately.

But, not in PP, in PAK, in cricket world, in entire living world, even among people living till 2005 - those who have seen both playing, you’ll not see a 2nd man who’ll pick Abdur Razzak in PAK’s all-time ODI XI for his “impact”, and completely dropping Imran from XI........ 2nd man, because 1st & only one is Mamoon - that’s pure HATE.

I hope it clears my stand on this.

Yes it does thanks.

I like your views and it's always a treat to read your opinions which is what I always look for on Pakpassion.

Incidentally, off topic, who do you think is going to win the Asia Cup?

 

[Bhaijaan]

This debate can be endless.

The '11 world cup: India(SRT) were lucky with the delay in DRS decision and three dropped catches. (Not trying to derail the thread).

Etc etc.

The fact, tho, remains IK inspired the team and they won the cup.

India, otoh, were at home and one can say SRT rode on MSD's back.

Sachin had a PHENOMENAL world cup. Among the leading scorers with two quality centuries.

Full credit to Imran the leader in 1992. But as an individual performer he is no where as either batsman or bowler in 1992. Not even in top 10.

India won in 2011 with big wins. They were comfortably the best in the world and the only match they lost was a 650 run fest closely fought till the end.

Pakistan were SMASHED early in 1992 like minnows and rain came to rescue when they were bundled out for 74 by England to allow them a semis birth. I dont intend to rub but 1992 was magical for Pakistan. They made it to semis with sheer luck and nothing else, Inzamam player tye nost unreal big match cameo ever and never played again by him or anyone else, and then Wasim's magic in the final turned things around. In the end i am the first to say they were deserving winners and turned things around when it mattered but please dont go mad in hyping Imran the performer in 1992.

 

[SL_Fan]

Sachin is not just ahead in LOIs he is in a different planet.

What did Imran pull off in 1992? As a player he had a very average world cup by all means. I don't even see him featuring prominently either as a batsman or bowler in 1992 world cup.

I hope you are aware if not for sheer luck Pakistan were not making the semis that world cup?

There wouldn't have been a '92 without Imran I can tell you that much. Sachin on the other hand even after taking part in six WCs he never had that sort of an impact as a cricketer.

 

[SL_Fan]

There are a fair few cricketers comfortably better than Sachin not just Imran.

Bradman - freak of all freaks a mammoth 175 runs/Test says it all

Sobers - four-in-one the ultimate utility player plus a brilliant fielder and leader

Viv - greatest modern-day batsman has ticked off more boxes than any other plus a brilliant fielder and leader and also a decent part-timer

McGrath - greatest modern-day bowler dominated all formats, all conditions and hardly anyone managed to get the better of him

Imran - ATG bowler and leader and a solid batsman

Kallis - ATG batsman, brilliant fielder and a reliable bowler

Hadlee - ATG bowler a one-man army and a solid lower-order batsman

Warne - ATG bowler, mastered what is easily the most difficult art-form and a decent lower-order batsman

Murali - ATG bowler an absolute workhorse and freak of nature

Gilly - ATG keeper batsman redefined the role in both Tests and LOIs

 

[Bhaijaan]

There wouldn't have been a '92 without Imran I can tell you that much. Sachin on the other hand even after taking part in six WCs he never had that sort of an impact as a cricketer.

If you are blind that is.

1996, 2003, 2011

Tendulkar was PHENOMENAL in 3 world cups. That is way ahead of the rest if the pack.

I have already busted your 1992 wc delusions about Imran.

What next Arjuna Ranatunga is better than Waqar Younis because of 1996?

 

[Khan12]

No bro, I have to disagree with your first part - you have a genuine HATE against Imran and I am really surprised why, considering that he is also a Pathan. Interestingly, I have seen genuine grudge against another Peshawar guy, who is truly a Test ATG on his own right - Younis Khan. And, I have been in PP for over a decade now - I have seen your genuine attempt to defame each & every PAK sports great here; may be you love to be stand out in a forum or love to rile up people.

Coming to Imran, you have genuine HATE for him, trust me - I haven't seen anyone in my long life of blogging, someone trying to defame own National hero like you. May be you are personally related with him or your family/you might have suffered from his acts, I don't know. I give two examples - just few days back regarding nepotism, you took the chance to defame him, suggesting that Imran Khan might not have even played for PAK without his cousin Mazid & family back-up. For someone else, I could have taken it simply as ignorance, but not for you Mamoon.

If anything, that one Test in 1971 actually had defamed his legacy, otherwise he played one Test and found that he wasn't good enough - spent 3 years in Counties & Oxford to upgrade him and make back as Imran Khan on his own right and stayed there for 2 decades as the original King Khan. It would have been nepotism, had he been playing round and gradually reach his peak, but guy was too classy, too stubborn & too arrogant to feed on favor & remain mediocre.

I can go back few years and waste some of my time to fetch your Posts from Time Pass .... regarding Imran's political career, his prospect ... up to Arvind Kejriwal ..... now Donald Trump. In your hate, you didn't notice one thing - in a 3rd world country with 6th largest population and very little democratic practices among the people, this guy reached the top from ZERO in 20 years, in a political environment dominated by legacy, family dominance, corruption and illegal money. And, now you are trying to give idea that PAK Army put him as dummy PM (which he could have been 10-12 years back), otherwise people of PAK were queuing to bring back Mian Sharif once more - this is not defame, pure HATE. From this only you should realize that Imran Khan was as different beast than that 1971 tour.

Coming to the other part of your post, you have given some nice logic on my points, great job - BUT, categorically avoided the only small part that mentions Baichung Bhutia & Lionel Messi - I guess, it explains something else as well.

You may disagree or hurt from my post, but don't get upset - I have no stake here and I write what I see, probably that is one reason people might agree, disagree with me, that's part of blogger's life - BUT, people won't ignore me.

Anyway, start of a busy week - I think, we should stop here. These are subjective calls and everyone is entitled to own opinion.

Loged on after sometime just to nominate this for POTW. By a counrty mile the best poster on pp and the only poster who i look forward to reading their posts.

 

[SL_Fan]

If you are blind that is.

1996, 2003, 2011

Tendulkar was PHENOMENAL in 3 world cups. That is way ahead of the rest if the pack.

I have already busted your 1992 wc delusions about Imran.

What next Arjuna Ranatunga is better than Waqar Younis because of 1996?

He scored runs yes but fact of the matter is that he would have retired without a WC win even after taking part in 6 WCs had it not been for other players. He has no iconic knock to his name in WC KOs. None. Zero. Zip.

 

[anikrc1]

give me one cricketer who would have won the world cup without his team mates

 

[Bhaijaan]

He scored runs yes but fact of the matter is that he would have retired without a WC win even after taking part in 6 WCs had it not been for other players. He has no iconic knock to his name in WC KOs. None. Zero. Zip.

92- India didnt get to the KOs

96 semi - Stand out performer on an unplayable pitch

99- Didnt make it to KOs

03 - 80+ in semi final

07 - didnt make it to KOs

11 - 80+ in the semis


He was good in workd cup KOs if great is not the word.

 

[SL_Fan]

96 semi stand out performer was Aravinda hence the motm

03 that was vs mighty Kenya

2011 given out LBW on 23 but was somehow overturned (still to this day can’t figure out how that would have missed the stumps completely), dropped on 27 and then dropped again three more times after

Nothing iconic about any of those.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Looks like this thread has gathered the people with bughaz-e-Imran on PP, good to see [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] doing a one man demolition job. Cheers mate.
PS: Good to see [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] back, sorry bro, not a good time for you and the team

 

[Vegitto1]

Sachin is not just ahead in LOIs he is in a different planet.

What did Imran pull off in 1992? As a player he had a very average world cup by all means. I don't even see him featuring prominently either as a batsman or bowler in 1992 world cup.

I hope you are aware if not for sheer luck Pakistan were not making the semis that world cup?

Lol and BCCI bought the Worldcup as a farewell present for Tendulkar.

 

[Bhaijaan]

96 semi stand out performer was Aravinda hence the motm

03 that was vs mighty Kenya

2011 given out LBW on 23 but was somehow overturned (still to this day can’t figure out how that would have missed the stumps completely), dropped on 27 and then dropped again three more times after

Nothing iconic about any of those.

96 - Tendulkar was among the biggest performers. Have some shame.

03 - Mighty Kenya smashed Sri Lanka in the tournament. They were on a great run.

11 - DRS showed him not out. Stop whinging its 2018 already. At the end of the day he did a wonderful job with the bat by scoring 80+ instead of throwing his wicket away. He made the drops count like great players do.

 

[SL_Fan]

Looks like this thread has gathered the people with bughaz-e-Imran on PP, good to see [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] doing a one man demolition job. Cheers mate.
PS: Good to see [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] back, sorry bro, not a good time for you and the team

Thanks champ it’s tough going but I’m taking it one day at a time.

 

[SL_Fan]

96 - Tendulkar was among the biggest performers. Have some shame.

03 - Mighty Kenya smashed Sri Lanka in the tournament. They were on a great run.

11 - DRS showed him not out. Stop whinging its 2018 already. At the end of the day he did a wonderful job with the bat by scoring 80+ instead of throwing his wicket away. He made the drops count like great players do.

Straws. Clutching. Big time.

 

[Monsee]

There are a fair few cricketers comfortably better than Sachin not just Imran.

Bradman - freak of all freaks a mammoth 175 runs/Test says it all

Sobers - four-in-one the ultimate utility player plus a brilliant fielder and leader

Viv - greatest modern-day batsman has ticked off more boxes than any other plus a brilliant fielder and leader and also a decent part-timer

McGrath - greatest modern-day bowler dominated all formats, all conditions and hardly anyone managed to get the better of him

Imran - ATG bowler and leader and a solid batsman

Kallis - ATG batsman, brilliant fielder and a reliable bowler

Hadlee - ATG bowler a one-man army and a solid lower-order batsman

Warne - ATG bowler, mastered what is easily the most difficult art-form and a decent lower-order batsman

Murali - ATG bowler an absolute workhorse and freak of nature

Gilly - ATG keeper batsman redefined the role in both Tests and LOIs

While I don't agree with some of the names, most of these players were almost as good as Teenda, if not better!

Yes longevity matters but when same is reported for even someone like Anderson to make a case for his greatness or ATG, same Indian fans come out blazing saying that does not matter in his case!

Yes, Tendulkar was an ATG in LOI, probably one of the best but we all know how many found ODI cricket to be easy to champ re: Rohit Sharma and yet he has been pretty mediocre when exposed to Tests!

Now, Tendulkar has a great Test record as well but besides the sheer volume of runs, which def are worth a lot, he does not end up with an average or overall extreme superiority to be called 'god' of cricket; this name was something coined by Indian media and now all his blind fans so swear by it.

Unlike Bradman, Tendulkar's average was bested by several batsmen and even a slightly mediocre player like Kallis who when both his roles are accounted for, def looks far superior due to the sheer numbers/volume of his stats but in his case, just like Anderson, most/all Indians say his longevity and sheer volume of stats don't matter, Hypocrisy or what?

 

[ManFan]

Sachin scored 2nd highest runs in 2011WC
Now dont start with runs in knock out match only count logic

It’s not just the runs in knockouts that count, of course.

However, in determining his impact on the win, they are important to take into consideration.

 

[slipcatch]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

Normally, I don't indulge in such threads, but here you are trying to rile up PAK posters with a flawed logic.

I tell you why from your post - you have put SRT as #1 for his batting, and you think VK will reach there at the end of career, while Murali at 3 - so, top 3 spots goes out of PAK, and Imran, Akram comes down to 4 & 5 - fair enough. But, by your own logic, if you go for spaciest player - by stats, contribution to their team and impact in a game SRT & VK will look like midget to Muralitharan - you can check his numbers, achievements from history and compare that with any cricketer since 1876.

You are not a troll for sure, but it really irritates few of us being here long time in PP, when you try to be one - you are much better than this.

Intentionally trying to rile up with made up flawed logic then deviating from that main point to micro points with somewhat fair and educated points to support your own trolling is probably the text book example of trolling.

 

[MMHS]

Intentionally trying to rile up with made up flawed logic then deviating from that main point to micro points with somewhat fair and educated points to support your own trolling is probably the text book example of trolling.

What is main point & what is micro point and what is educated point? I guess you didn't digest the Murali comment - get some education on his achievements as a specialist skilled cricketer (which was his point against all-rounders), compare it with cricket since 1876, then we'll talk.

Please do bother to come back on that criteria - specialist skills of a player regardless on batsmen or bowler or WK, because this list is not for best batsman.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I joined PP in 2013.

It's 2018.

Some things never change.

 

[MMHS]

Yes it does thanks.

I like your views and it's always a treat to read your opinions which is what I always look for on Pakpassion.

Incidentally, off topic, who do you think is going to win the Asia Cup?

I think, the side wins the toss in key games will win the tournament. The way wicket is behaving, all 4 teams in Super 4 are capable of defending 240, unless wicket changes here, therefore it's difficult to predict. SRL was unlucky to lose both tosses, otherwise that 137 & 91 margin actually isn't that big here - teams batting first are starting with at least 50 at hand.

Coming to the main topic, few years back, there was a thread on best ever PAK sportsman - trust me, in my ranking Imran was 4th or may be 5th - definitely below Jahangir, Jansher, Shahbaz and may be Hasan Sardar. The reason is simple - cricket is a niche game followed by at most 12-15 countries and it's that we have almost couple of billions deshi abadi, with very little capacity in other sports, cricket & cricket stars are worshiped so much here.

Those 2 guys were top of a sports which is professionally played by the Sports super powers - USA, Germany, Russia, GB, France, China, AUS, Canada ....., while Shahbaz won a WC, in a sports where Germany, Holland, AUS, France, Belgium, Spain, Argentina .... plays professionally.

Similarly, if you ask me, first Indian sportsman to be awarded Bharat Ratna should have been Bishwanath Aanand, while if this this Hyderabad guy can keep it up for 4-5 years, should easily topple any Indian cricketer, because in a game of Badminton, he is beating top pros from China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Japan, Korea, Denmark & Singapore.

Cricket is worshiped in South Asia because we are damn useless in every other team sports, and that's why cricketers has so much fat & cream, otherwise is a dying, ancient game which less than 60 years back was restricted to elites with a class system (1964 they abolished the discrimination between amateur & professional cricketers in County). This year Asian games was a big surprise for me - Iran won Kabadi Gold & japan Field Jockey gold!!! I can recall us beating Japan in Hockey probably less than 20 years back and Iran first time send any Kabadi team to any competition may be in 2006 Asiad!!!! In comparison to that, a country of 200K, trust me 200K, which is less than my Mohalla back home, won SAAF football beating IND, PAK, BD ...away from home...

I have absolutely no personal bias here for Imran, but he was a wonderful cricketer, leader and personality - obviously we'll have different preference in such lists.

 

[Chrish]

While I don't agree with some of the names, most of these players were almost as good as Teenda, if not better!

Yes longevity matters but when same is reported for even someone like Anderson to make a case for his greatness or ATG, same Indian fans come out blazing saying that does not matter in his case!

Yes, Tendulkar was an ATG in LOI, probably one of the best but we all know how many found ODI cricket to be easy to champ re: Rohit Sharma and yet he has been pretty mediocre when exposed to Tests!

Now, Tendulkar has a great Test record as well but besides the sheer volume of runs, which def are worth a lot, he does not end up with an average or overall extreme superiority to be called 'god' of cricket; this name was something coined by Indian media and now all his blind fans so swear by it.

Unlike Bradman, Tendulkar's average was bested by several batsmen and even a slightly mediocre player like Kallis who when both his roles are accounted for, def looks far superior due to the sheer numbers/volume of his stats but in his case, just like Anderson, most/all Indians say his longevity and sheer volume of stats don't matter, Hypocrisy or what?

You would have a point if Anderson had maintained the average of 23 or under while taking 563 wickets.

Longevity matters a lot. No. of titles Roger Federer won matters. No of WC Australian team won matters. Smimilarly no of runs an individual scored also matters. It shows for how long any player was useful to his team. Of course the longer the better.

 

[Hitman]

You would have a point if Anderson had maintained the average of 23 or under while taking 563 wickets.

Longevity matters a lot. No. of titles Roger Federer won matters. No of WC Australian team won matters. Smimilarly no of runs an individual scored also matters. It shows for how long any player was useful to his team. Of course the longer the better.

Anderson's away average of 33 odd is a big point. I do admire him as a bowler though.

 

[Tusker]

That's bullsh!t - Indian media selling their hero adding some sentiment in it. Do you think, when Mushi played yesterday, expectation was less on him? Or do you think, since he comes from a Country of 200K people, Viv Richards didn't face the pressure of expectation? Or these Ice Land players just went for their summer vacation in Russia because expectation of 350K hardly matters.

With due respect I can tell you that you are categorically wrong here. I will give you a couple of examples : After the 2006 Test Series vs Pakistan Times of India - the leading newspaper in India - Ran an article titled "Endulkar". Tendulkar made 63 runs in 3 inngs ( Did not even get to bat for half of the series BTW !! )

First of all in case of Mushfiq and Viv or for that matter any player from other countries ... there is simply no equivalent rival for these players for me to equivalent comparison against. But I can tell you with certainty that Viv Richards never had to deal with such stupidity.

Another example : Tendulkar was booed by his own home crowd in Mumbai 2006 in a match vs England. Many years later the same set of fans would call him God and cry during his farewell on the same ground.

In 2003 WC After loss to Australia in the group match, fans pelted stones at some players houses and they had to get extra security. Tendulkar was asked to address the crazy fans and he did. Not only did he do that but also scored a small matter of 600+ runs after that including the epic knock vs Pak for which he was reminded by every TDH one year in advance.

I can give few more of these examples but there is simply no equivalence to any situation that Viv or anyone went thru i their career. Perhaps the closest example is England's Ashes whitewash when they came under pressure but hardly comparable in terms of the madness that Indian fans can heap. And if you want to go back in time Brearley played as a specialist captain lol for England averaging barely 30 over 5 yrs. That just ain't happening in India.

 

[MMHS]

With due respect I can tell you that you are categorically wrong here. I will give you a couple of examples : After the 2006 Test Series vs Pakistan Times of India - the leading newspaper in India - Ran an article titled "Endulkar". Tendulkar made 63 runs in 3 inngs ( Did not even get to bat for half of the series BTW !! )

First of all in case of Mushfiq and Viv or for that matter any player from other countries ... there is simply no equivalent rival for these players for me to equivalent comparison against. But I can tell you with certainty that Viv Richards never had to deal with such stupidity.

Another example : Tendulkar was booed by his own home crowd in Mumbai 2006 in a match vs England. Many years later the same set of fans would call him God and cry during his farewell on the same ground.

In 2003 WC After loss to Australia in the group match, fans pelted stones at some players houses and they had to get extra security. Tendulkar was asked to address the crazy fans and he did. Not only did he do that but also scored a small matter of 600+ runs after that including the epic knock vs Pak for which he was reminded by every TDH one year in advance.

I can give few more of these examples but there is simply no equivalence to any situation that Viv or anyone went thru i their career. Perhaps the closest example is England's Ashes whitewash when they came under pressure but hardly comparable in terms of the madness that Indian fans can heap. And if you want to go back in time Brearley played as a specialist captain lol for England averaging barely 30 over 5 yrs. That just ain't happening in India.

Look, pressure of expectation is always there for top players, and they are groomed with that from junior level. It's not that suddenly one day Indian people started to expect more from SRT. One has to grow within that expectation - you can't say that someone is failing or performing under per because of huge expectation. Being targeted by media or being worshiped by fans isn't new for Indian cricketers, and still there are players performing under that expectation. I don't think using huge expectation should be used as an excuse - you have to grow within your environment.

Brearley wasn't a player good enough for first XI - his career average is 23 without any 100, which actually tells that in his limited capacity guy led from the front, tried his best and improved numbers as Captain. Also, he was made Captain from desperation at the age of 38 - had Tony Greig not gone for WSC, Brearly won't have ever played for ENG.

 

[slipcatch]

What is main point & what is micro point and what is educated point? I guess you didn't digest the Murali comment - get some education on his achievements as a specialist skilled cricketer (which was his point against all-rounders), compare it with cricket since 1876, then we'll talk.

Please do bother to come back on that criteria - specialist skills of a player regardless on batsmen or bowler or WK, because this list is not for best batsman.

I am agreeing with you.

My initial comment was to identify with your comment about a particular poster who move comments from macro to micro to support his trolling.

 

[MMHS]

I am agreeing with you.

My initial comment was to identify with your comment about a particular poster who move comments from macro to micro to support his trolling.

He is brilliant with his knowledge, but this umar may hi bechara sattya gaya - uses his wonderful knowledge to get under people's skin.

He is one of my most favorite poster, otherwise won't have responded.

 

[Tusker]

Look, pressure of expectation is always there for top players, and they are groomed with that from junior level. It's not that suddenly one day Indian people started to expect more from SRT. One has to grow within that expectation - you can't say that someone is failing or performing under per because of huge expectation. Being targeted by media or being worshiped by fans isn't new for Indian cricketers, and still there are players performing under that expectation. I don't think using huge expectation should be used as an excuse - you have to grow within your environment.

Actually the WI,English,Aussie,NZ,SA cricketers just simply do not understand what that means. A lot of them would simply go into mental depression if they had to live like Tendulkar. Cant go out anywhere in India no matter what. Just locked up 24/7 and if you have to move you have to do so under heavy security. It is easy for us to sit here and tell them to get used to it but its not normal to live like that. Nearly impossible to do that for 2 decades like Tendulkar. None of the super stars from Eng/Aus/WI/SA come even remotely close to that kind of scrutiny and claustrophobic environment.

Also the point was to highlight the fact that Indian media isnt exactly into blanket Hero Worshipping come what may (as you were trying to say). Hardly the case. Sanjay Manjrekar one of Tendulkars good friends was very critical of him when he got into the media.

Brearley wasn't a player good enough for first XI - his career average is 23 without any 100, which actually tells that in his limited capacity guy led from the front, tried his best and improved numbers as Captain. Also, he was made Captain from desperation at the age of 38 - had Tony Greig not gone for WSC, Brearly won't have ever played for ENG.

So the point is such things like specialist captains aint going to work in India. The media and fans will simply eat him and BCCI alive. MSD is 10 times the captain that Brearley ever was and yet you can see how he is going to suffer from **** scrutiny despite being 1000 times the player that Brearley could even dream about. Reason - massive gulf in expectations because of Cricket crazy nation. Words cannot describe the craziness and stupidity.

 

[Monsee]

You would have a point if Anderson had maintained the average of 23 or under while taking 563 wickets.

Longevity matters a lot. No. of titles Roger Federer won matters. No of WC Australian team won matters. Smimilarly no of runs an individual scored also matters. It shows for how long any player was useful to his team. Of course the longer the better.

As if that stops Indian fans from trashing Imran?

 

[Ab Fan]

There are a fair few cricketers comfortably better than Sachin not just Imran.

Bradman - freak of all freaks a mammoth 175 runs/Test says it all

Sobers - four-in-one the ultimate utility player plus a brilliant fielder and leader

Viv - greatest modern-day batsman has ticked off more boxes than any other plus a brilliant fielder and leader and also a decent part-timer

McGrath - greatest modern-day bowler dominated all formats, all conditions and hardly anyone managed to get the better of him

Imran - ATG bowler and leader and a solid batsman

Kallis - ATG batsman, brilliant fielder and a reliable bowler

Hadlee - ATG bowler a one-man army and a solid lower-order batsman

Warne - ATG bowler, mastered what is easily the most difficult art-form and a decent lower-order batsman

Murali - ATG bowler an absolute workhorse and freak of nature

Gilly - ATG keeper batsman redefined the role in both Tests and LOIs

Murali and Hadlee dont think so. SRT is clearly widely much more popular and will be brought up higher than those two more often than not.

Kallis was also underrated massively but he is getting his due from the last 5 years. A case for others can be made though.

 

[Chrish]

As if that stops Indian fans from trashing Imran?

I have seen all Sachin has is longevity argument being used against him more often than I can remember.

 

[Monsee]

I have seen all Sachin has is longevity argument being used against him more often than I can remember.

OK, so is his average far superior (remember avg as in career avg) than his peers?
For example: Imran's overall bowling average shames most of his peers if not all despite being almost a non-bowler for several tests in his career (especially the last 2-3 years) and having missed 2 1/2 years at his peak!

Has he easily fared far better than all his peers in 4th innings...what about while chasing targets?

How about his away record, is that even better than his peers by a strecth?

How many of innings are considered all time great ones which took the team across the line...here we talk of innings that are iconic and mentioned by every one and included in every list out there?

Did he scoree lots of double centuries and tripple hundreds (oops) since he played in an era where double centuries were quite normal?

I mean besides the sheer weight of his runs (which is still a very good achievement) what else is it that stands out?

P.S. Please refrain from carrying the hopes and expctations of 1 billion fans, that one is neither here or there...no proof of it since I am quite sure at least 20-30 percent of Indian population must be too poor to pay attention to following cricket or taking any interest in it

 

[Chrish]

OK, so is his average far superior (remember avg as in career avg) than his peers?
For example: Imran's overall bowling average shames most of his peers if not all despite being almost a non-bowler for several tests in his career (especially the last 2-3 years) and having missed 2 1/2 years at his peak!

Has he easily fared far better than all his peers in 4th innings...what about while chasing targets?

How about his away record, is that even better than his peers by a strecth?

How many of innings are considered all time great ones which took the team across the line...here we talk of innings that are iconic and mentioned by every one and included in every list out there?

Did he scoree lots of double centuries and tripple hundreds (oops) since he played in an era where double centuries were quite normal?

I mean besides the sheer weight of his runs (which is still a very good achievement) what else is it that stands out?

P.S. Please refrain from carrying the hopes and expctations of 1 billion fans, that one is neither here or there...no proof of it since I am quite sure at least 20-30 percent of Indian population must be too poor to pay attention to following cricket or taking any interest in it

Tendulkar's home vs away record is better than his contemporaries. You should have looked at the numbers before even posing that question.

As for his comparison with Imran, I don't have much interest in that debate. I was just pointing out that one looks silly when dismissing player's longevity achievement merely as something that was gifted to him by team selectors.

 

[SL_Fan]

While I don't agree with some of the names, most of these players were almost as good as Teenda, if not better!

Yes longevity matters but when same is reported for even someone like Anderson to make a case for his greatness or ATG, same Indian fans come out blazing saying that does not matter in his case!

Yes, Tendulkar was an ATG in LOI, probably one of the best but we all know how many found ODI cricket to be easy to champ re: Rohit Sharma and yet he has been pretty mediocre when exposed to Tests!

Now, Tendulkar has a great Test record as well but besides the sheer volume of runs, which def are worth a lot, he does not end up with an average or overall extreme superiority to be called 'god' of cricket; this name was something coined by Indian media and now all his blind fans so swear by it.

Unlike Bradman, Tendulkar's average was bested by several batsmen and even a slightly mediocre player like Kallis who when both his roles are accounted for, def looks far superior due to the sheer numbers/volume of his stats but in his case, just like Anderson, most/all Indians say his longevity and sheer volume of stats don't matter, Hypocrisy or what?

Longevity becomes a moot point after the 15 or so year mark imo. I think around a decade is plenty of time to judge a player's ability to maintain a high level of performance and cope with the challenges and pressures that come with it.

 

[SL_Fan]

Murali and Hadlee dont think so. SRT is clearly widely much more popular and will be brought up higher than those two more often than not.

Kallis was also underrated massively but he is getting his due from the last 5 years. A case for others can be made though.

Not looking at popularity here tho. I'm looking at what each of them bring to the table as cricketers.

Hadlee
150 innings around 6 wkts/Test and 40 runs/Test with very little support
Plus around 1.5 wkts/ODI eco under 4 and 20 runs/inning at a good strike rate

Murali
230 innings around 7 wkts/Test with not a lot of support
Plus around 1.5 wkts/ODI eco under 4

Sachin
330 innings around 95 runs/Test
Plus around 40 runs/ODI at a very good strike rate and a decent part-timer

So for me Hadlee and Murali both bring more to the table as cricketers. Just to put things into perspective there are a fair few other batsmen not in the ten listed who have comparable numbers to that of Sachin.

Lara
230 innings around 105 runs/Test striking at over 60 while batting in a weak line-up
Plus around 35 runs/ODI at a good strike rate

Ponting
287 innings around 95 runs/Test and a great leader and a top notch fielder
Plus around 40 runs/ODI at a good strike rate

Sanga
233 innings around 105 runs/Test and kept wickets as well in a third of those with 150+ dismissals
Plus around 40 runs/ODI at a decent strike rate and close to 500 dismissals as keeper (highest)

 

[Monsee]

Tendulkar's home vs away record is better than his contemporaries. You should have looked at the numbers before even posing that question.

As for his comparison with Imran, I don't have much interest in that debate. I was just pointing out that one looks silly when dismissing player's longevity achievement merely as something that was gifted to him by team selectors.

What's even more foolish is Tendulkar fanatics putting words in other people's minds!

In my opinion his longevity counts for a fair bit but just to base that to make him an ATG/GOAT is totally wrong which most Indian fans do e.g.

When encountered with the idea that if he was the 'god' of cricket, how come he does not stand out in terms of career average, playing under pressure, mastery of tricky pitches, etc?

This is the usual response, "Oh he scored mountains of runs, carried the burden of expectations of over 1 bilion fans, and obviously due to his longevity, he is above all his contemporaries.

Well, mountain of runs wise, Sanga, Kallis, Ponting etc. did it as well and some others too. A few of them with a better career average as well. Carrying 1 billion people's expectations and burden of that is neither here or there. If he did not get paid, would he still have done all this just to please the 'Expectations of all these people?'

Once that is encountered, usually Indian fans always say due to his sheer number of hundreds and longevity, he wins. Well by that argument Anderson is an ATG as well despite not really shining above his contemporaries due to the sheer number of wickets, carrying the expectations of millions of English fans, and his absolutely brilliant longevity, supreme fitness, and professional attitude!

 

[Rotoman]

Except Anderson averages 34 away from home. Tendulkar is class both away and home. Surely it's not that hard to understand.