HappyWarsFan
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I am interested.in asking you..How did NZ go from being a mediocre team to being a good team since around 2013? Did they improve their domestic structure? Their selection? Etc.
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Painful and torturous to watch cricket under Misbah-ul-Haq/Waqar Younis
- Thread starter Slim
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I am interested.in asking you..How did NZ go from being a mediocre team to being a good team since around 2013? Did they improve their domestic structure? Their selection? Etc.
The Viper
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List of errors by Misbah:
Playing Yasir Shah over Kashif Bhatti, despite evidence showing Yasir is expensive and useless in these conditions.
Playing Musa over Naseem Shah- if Naseem is bowling in the nets, then why has he not been picked?
Moving Azhar back at 3- whilst we have not batted yet, the outcome is inevitable.
I am not saying we should have won the series, but all I am asking is for a fight.
Waqar has been clueless also as he has failed to instruct the seamers on where to bowl.
Playing Yasir Shah over Kashif Bhatti, despite evidence showing Yasir is expensive and useless in these conditions.
Playing Musa over Naseem Shah- if Naseem is bowling in the nets, then why has he not been picked?
Moving Azhar back at 3- whilst we have not batted yet, the outcome is inevitable.
I am not saying we should have won the series, but all I am asking is for a fight.
Waqar has been clueless also as he has failed to instruct the seamers on where to bowl.
They were never that poor - just, lost few senior players. Their system was always good - that's why Crowe was replaced by Fleming to Ross to Will or Hadlee to Cairns to Bond to Boult. As long as the public interest is there, this happens to every team, in every sports, but obviously some generation is better than others.
I gave that example many times - pick an all-time IND 20 for 3 formats, at least 8 players will come from the bunch debuted in last 19 years .... and 20 years later, still you'll see couple of players coming from that generation - result, Indian all time 20 will get stronger and stronger - apart from few ATGs like SRT, Sunny, Kapil, Kohli - none is safe - already Srinath is replaced by Zak, who might miss his spot in few years time to Bumrah and next one ... Prassanna been replaced (from squad) by Ashwin, ... and so on.
That's true for ENG as well after 150 years - Stokes and Jimmy are active players, who'll make the 20, few months back Sir Cook was there as well .... Aussies have a guaranteed starter for their AT XI in current team ....
Do the same maths for PAK, only one player that'll make the 20 men squad, debuting in this millennium is Babar, that too not guaranteed...., OK you can add add YK, for 3 months - that's where the barrel is getting empty - don't even think that I am having my fun on the day PAK conceded 302/1 in 73 overs on a wicket where PAK would have inserted opponents in!!!!
True, but problem is other than India, only one team is playing Test cricket for 69 years now - and heading towards glorified (you can say elite) minnow territory. Give SRL, BD, AFG, Nepal, Bhutan, Maldwips, PNG HK ... 40-50-70 more years, then you can see if the barrel is indeed empty or not. At present, that comparison isn't fair in either way - not with India, not with others either. You see - I can work with same medicine as well, the way PP likes to think
. BD has developed remarkably well, beyond my expectation in last 20 years and I you should know - I DO KNOW MY CRICKET, and don't allow my emotions to get better of my sense. Because, I know how tough it is to develop into an unique game like cricket, played by only few teams ... but played for centuries now. Cricket is the oldest surviving modern game and still only few teams have mastered it ... and few are forgetting now, unfortunately ... which tells what monumental target BD has achieved in 20 years - from celebrating a draw in a 3 day game against Hyderabad Blues or Karachi Electric Supply or MCC veterans to come to this level in less than 25 years.
Hyperion66
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Your profile pic is gonna give some posters severe heartache, well played sir!!
[MENTION=148759]HappyWarsFan[/MENTION]
Don't get me wrong - in this cricket world, PAK will always remain a force, if you think a QF spot is worthy But, I explain the context (of empty barrel) with my favorite sports - soccer. Only 8 teams have won the WC in 90 years - why? That game is played by 200 countries and in most of those, it's No. 1 game. But, it's the Brazil, Germany, Italy, France, Argentina, Uruguay, England & Spain (You can add Portugal & Holland as well) always - why? Because, these are elite Soccer countries where generation is successfully replaced in every 20-25 years.
From Raymond Copa to Platini to Zidane to Henry to M'Bappe ... French icon will always be among world's best. For Brazil. Pele left for Garincha to take over - then Rivelino, Zico, Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka .... now Neymar ... I can tell the same story with Cruyff, Gulit, Basten, Van Persie, Roben ... or Wie Siller, Gerd Muller, Ruminnegge, Klinsmann, Ballack .......That's why these are elite soccer nation - they produce greats by every generation; not Denmark, who once with Preben Larsen generation did beat almost everyone to dust, or Belgium who are truly the best team now - won't be once Hazard, KDB, Kompany, Cortois, Lukaku and that back line retires.
Cricket's elite team was even fewer - to me only 6, not even Kiwis or Lankans - and from that six, WIN & PAK are now scratching bottom of barrel, sad but true. Have patience and look for systematic improvement, not for miracles (which results in cursing selectors ) - system produces professional players, not genetics or talunt ... this I wrote in that famous AFG thread as well, before their latest Test against WIN.
Don't get me wrong - in this cricket world, PAK will always remain a force, if you think a QF spot is worthy
But, I explain the context (of empty barrel) with my favorite sports - soccer. Only 8 teams have won the WC in 90 years - why? That game is played by 200 countries and in most of those, it's No. 1 game. But, it's the Brazil, Germany, Italy, France, Argentina, Uruguay, England & Spain (You can add Portugal & Holland as well) always - why? Because, these are elite Soccer countries where generation is successfully replaced in every 20-25 years. From Raymond Copa to Platini to Zidane to Henry to M'Bappe ... French icon will always be among world's best. For Brazil. Pele left for Garincha to take over - then Rivelino, Zico, Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka .... now Neymar ... I can tell the same story with Cruyff, Gulit, Basten, Van Persie, Roben ... or Wie Siller, Gerd Muller, Ruminnegge, Klinsmann, Ballack .......That's why these are elite soccer nation - they produce greats by every generation; not Denmark, who once with Preben Larsen generation did beat almost everyone to dust, or Belgium who are truly the best team now - won't be once Hazard, KDB, Kompany, Cortois, Lukaku and that back line retires.
Cricket's elite team was even fewer - to me only 6, not even Kiwis or Lankans - and from that six, WIN & PAK are now scratching bottom of barrel, sad but true. Have patience and look for systematic improvement, not for miracles (which results in cursing selectors
) - system produces professional players, not genetics or talunt ... this I wrote in that famous AFG thread as well, before their latest Test against WIN.
Greenstorm
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So basically you want 'naujwans' as you say to keep enduring Misbah, stop dreaming and keep posting that we are losers, barrel is empty, we are weak, we are minnows, India is so better than us, we need more humiliation etc. Well you got lucky with a certain few among us posting like that but you won't get many.
Also, I do not get what you mean by 'be aware of other country posters here'. I think many posters of different countries give a lot of stick to each other, sometimes justified sometimes not, no point in singling out one section of posters.
No, I want you to be passionate and learn the game through understanding how it works. Most of the adjectives you used are true, and you know that - so, you don't need to tell it; but keep expectations within reality........ and don't hype unrealistically, it won't help.
There is a fine line between leg pulling, banter and insult - know that fine line, you'll realize how much ugly some of your posters are.
ahmedzee
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What do you really expect?
Lets talk about Waqar:
This is his 5 or 6th stint as a coach in some capacity. He didn't do anything good in all his last outings. He was a miserable coach, captain and strategist. The only good thing about him was bowling inswinging yorkers, and now his time is up (he no longer bowls professionally). Why do we keep bringing a failure in our set up time and again. Someone like Wasim Akram would make an amazing bowling coach. Why do we have a "gawar" like Waqar in there? He has probably won zero trophies as a coach.
Now lets talk about Misbah:
Misbah is known as tuk tuk for a reason. He has excessively defensive mindset which won't even win you games 30 years ago. Under his captaincy in ODIs, Pakistan went from # 3 or #4 to #9 team in 2015. The whole team plays like bunch of losers when he was incharge. They already lose the game before even the game begins. This defensively and coward approach would never win you games even again Zimbabwe or Nepal. We should know that he was a very poor strategist as captain. So what impact would he make as a coach? In tests, his captaincy was not bad, but he didn't light anything on fire. He was still defensive, and was massively helped by Saeed Ajmal in the bowling department. If there was no Saeed Ajmal (like now), we would be seeing something very similar to what is happening to the Pakistani team in Australia. Unfortunately, the guy is not cut to be a coach for even a domestic team. His selection policies are again the same, reeks of defensive mindset. He always went into the game strategizing on "how not to lose it". Massively different by going into a game with the mindset of "how to win".
Very disappointed with PCB on bringing back Waqar and Misbah in the fold.
Atleast under Mickey/Sarfaraz, Pakistan was doing well in ODIs/T20s. The long losing streak was purely Shoaib Malik as captain and had nothing to do with Sarfaraz. I hope he is back in limited overs set up soon.
Lets talk about Waqar:
This is his 5 or 6th stint as a coach in some capacity. He didn't do anything good in all his last outings. He was a miserable coach, captain and strategist. The only good thing about him was bowling inswinging yorkers, and now his time is up (he no longer bowls professionally). Why do we keep bringing a failure in our set up time and again. Someone like Wasim Akram would make an amazing bowling coach. Why do we have a "gawar" like Waqar in there? He has probably won zero trophies as a coach.
Now lets talk about Misbah:
Misbah is known as tuk tuk for a reason. He has excessively defensive mindset which won't even win you games 30 years ago. Under his captaincy in ODIs, Pakistan went from # 3 or #4 to #9 team in 2015. The whole team plays like bunch of losers when he was incharge. They already lose the game before even the game begins. This defensively and coward approach would never win you games even again Zimbabwe or Nepal. We should know that he was a very poor strategist as captain. So what impact would he make as a coach? In tests, his captaincy was not bad, but he didn't light anything on fire. He was still defensive, and was massively helped by Saeed Ajmal in the bowling department. If there was no Saeed Ajmal (like now), we would be seeing something very similar to what is happening to the Pakistani team in Australia. Unfortunately, the guy is not cut to be a coach for even a domestic team. His selection policies are again the same, reeks of defensive mindset. He always went into the game strategizing on "how not to lose it". Massively different by going into a game with the mindset of "how to win".
Very disappointed with PCB on bringing back Waqar and Misbah in the fold.
Atleast under Mickey/Sarfaraz, Pakistan was doing well in ODIs/T20s. The long losing streak was purely Shoaib Malik as captain and had nothing to do with Sarfaraz. I hope he is back in limited overs set up soon.
HappyWarsFan
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Lmaoo that's why I did it.
Well said. After 302-1 after 73 overs on Day 1 in a pink ball Test, somebody must explain whether these are the best bowlers in Pakistan and what the plan is to take wickets in Australia.
This guy is the epitome of shamelessness. He had FOUR previous coaching roles with Pakistan and failed every time. Any self-respecting person would reflect on their strengths and weaknesses, maybe gain some coaching experience elsewhere and aim to improve.
But no. This guy each time ran back to the comfort of the commentary box waiting for his successors to fail, then re-apply for the same post which PCB in their infinite wisdom decide to accept.
HappyWarsFan
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[MENTION=148759]HappyWarsFan[/MENTION]
Don't get me wrong - in this cricket world, PAK will always remain a force, if you think a QF spot is worthy
From Raymond Copa to Platini to Zidane to Henry to M'Bappe ... French icon will always be among world's best. For Brazil. Pele left for Garincha to take over - then Rivelino, Zico, Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka .... now Neymar ... I can tell the same story with Cruyff, Gulit, Basten, Van Persie, Roben ... or Wie Siller, Gerd Muller, Ruminnegge, Klinsmann, Ballack .......That's why these are elite soccer nation - they produce greats by every generation; not Denmark, who once with Preben Larsen generation did beat almost everyone to dust, or Belgium who are truly the best team now - won't be once Hazard, KDB, Kompany, Cortois, Lukaku and that back line retires.
Cricket's elite team was even fewer - to me only 6, not even Kiwis or Lankans - and from that six, WIN & PAK are now scratching bottom of barrel, sad but true. Have patience and look for systematic improvement, not for miracles (which results in cursing selectors
That is an excellent point and I see your point, elite teams need to be making legends every generation., and it fits well with soccer too - the replacement should always be waiting in the wings. I do think Belgium will be an elite soccer team though, their youngsters look promosing like Tielelsman, Batshuyi, etc.
As for Pakistan, we haven't been able to produce any kind of replacement for YK or even Misbah, who was just a regular 'good' player, not a legend by any means. What really irritates me is when a talent is hyped up by PP, like let's Saif Badar, and then I check out his FC stats and I see an average of 22 staring back at me... this is how desperate we are, judjing talunt by how sexy their cover drive is blah blah... there's little actual performances. It's unfortunate. Hopefully Wasim Khan can stay for a long time, he is the man to take us forward if he continues his brilliant work on the FC system which will jopefully produce some more names in 5 years.
Greenstorm
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I know those adjectives are true but PP will become a boring place to visit if all started to post like that.
Even with the empty barrel, do you really believe that this XI in Australia, the choice of captain, the tactics(or lack of) being employed is the best we can do, surely not ? and if not then fans are well within their rights to call for the heads of the culprits and specially the head culprit, all powerful Misbah ul Haq.
But for some reason that I cannot understand, a knowledgeable poster like you approved Misbah-Waqar's appointment and are still justifying them with barrel empty excuse.
Dr_Bassim
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Actually he is NOT saying Misbah is amazing.
You really need to re read his posts.
He has repeated his point so many times that everyone who follows [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] should memorize it by heart.
Unfortunately, people still believe he is Misbah fan.
I never justified that appointment - in fact, I am the one first wrote here that the ad (for HC) was framed to hand pick someone. Rather, I am trying to justify the circumstances it was done. Misbah was never qualified enough to coach (not director, different role) even a QEA team, but he is not responsible for every problem - some are beyond his limit, some are beyond his scope and some are inherited. If you start to shoot the man for every such issues, changing coach, selector will hardly bring any success.
You see, I criticised selecting IK for the squad, but not picking him for Gabba Test - Misbah is responsible for both, but not at fault at both... Abbas would have been into his 35th week on that Gabba track, trust me. Now, some believes that Sameen Gul or Ehsan Adil would have turned into Hadlee & McGrath if picked instead of IK; so they curse Misbah ...... I believe that it’s almost the same, may be less than 5% edhar udhar; similarly, if you go to that Musa Khan thread, opened just about a year back, you’ll see that I wasn’t that impressed that time, though PP had a bit difference of opinion, as a result now they are cursing Musa & Misbah ..... but for me, that barrel comes.
Titan24
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True, but problem is other than India, only one team is playing Test cricket for 69 years now - and heading towards glorified (you can say elite) minnow territory. Give SRL, BD, AFG, Nepal, Bhutan, Maldwips, PNG HK ... 40-50-70 more years, then you can see if the barrel is indeed empty or not. At present, that comparison isn't fair in either way - not with India, not with others either. You see - I can work with same medicine as well, the way PP likes to think
BD has developed remarkably well, beyond my expectation in last 20 years and I you should know - I DO KNOW MY CRICKET, and don't allow my emotions to get better of my sense. Because, I know how tough it is to develop into an unique game like cricket, played by only few teams ... but played for centuries now. Cricket is the oldest surviving modern game and still only few teams have mastered it ... and few are forgetting now, unfortunately ... which tells what monumental target BD has achieved in 20 years - from celebrating a draw in a 3 day game against Hyderabad Blues or Karachi Electric Supply or MCC veterans to come to this level in less than 25 years.
England has been playing cricket longer than Pak however they have seen bigger ups and downs in their history. What about WI as well then? It doesnt work the way you are implying, playing sport for a longer time doesnt necessarily mean to be always better than other teams. There will be different phases as there were if you see history.
I guess your standard for development inst very high if you are saying BD has developed well. As you try to put forward your point to many posters that how they are in the self denial I think you need some self assessment too. You are in denial regarding BD cricket team as well, which hasnt achieved anything as of yet and its not like they are producing players which one can be called future legends even now. If I am missing some names, I am open to be enlightened. Shakib is an outlier.
When you were recommending some posters to lay low, I knew where that suggestion was coming from as you have practically done that on few occasions.
Chief Destroyer
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Misbah is cancer to Pakistan cricket, always has and always will be. He fooled everyone into thinking he's a good captain/batsman by playing the slowest cricket on the slowest pitches on the planet.
When in fact, he's a rotten, two-faced person who's manipulated the idiots PCB to get to this position.
When in fact, he's a rotten, two-faced person who's manipulated the idiots PCB to get to this position.
England has been playing cricket longer than Pak however they have seen bigger ups and downs in their history. What about WI as well then? It doesnt work the way you are implying, playing sport for a longer time doesnt necessarily mean to be always better than other teams. There will be different phases as there were if you see history.
I guess your standard for development inst very high if you are saying BD has developed well. As you try to put forward your point to many posters that how they are in the self denial I think you need some self assessment too. You are in denial regarding BD cricket team as well, which hasnt achieved anything as of yet and its not like they are producing players which one can be called future legends even now. If I am missing some names, I am open to be enlightened. Shakib is an outlier.
When you were recommending some posters to lay low, I knew where that suggestion was coming from as you have practically done that on few occasions.
Since you brought England, I guess the message didn’t ring the bell - leave it.
My standards are quite high for BD actually- we are a proud nation and extremely proud of our little achievements and we do have achieved few things; but I am not delusional. You can say my expectations are very low for BD team - for the time being. At this moment, my expectations are as low that as long as no former Captain suggests us to learn playing cricket before landing in his country - I am happy.
Dr_Bassim
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He might not have any coaching skills and he might be a poor coach now and in the future as time goes on it will tell.
But the guy usually played slow in TESTS, and his method got Pakistan to no 1 in test rankings. (or at least 2 if you argue that Ind-WI was rained off). Now you may disapprove of his pace of play and his style of play in tests, but he got the job done and that's what matters.
Was it boring cricket? Mostly at times. But he also scored an extremely fast century in tests when the situation demanded it. He knew how to win and wear down the opposition as a test captain and that's why he was successful.
ODI's he was bit dated and it showed and T20's were not his cup of tea either.
I don't get it. Mickey Arthur was even more clueless in the UAE tracks and led Pakistan to a series of Test defeats yet he gets absolved because of a 12 game T20 streak and people consider him a progressive and good coach, and Misbah gets the blame as coach for losing in Australia? One series and the knives are out?
Rayyman
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I cannot believe Misbah fans are still justifying him after these horrific last two months.
what would have mickey done differently? selected rahat ali? selected hafeez? selected sarfraz?
we would have got destroyed on this your regardless of if we had a coach of the stature of guardiola or if we had misbah, don't blame him, its not his doing.
emranabbas
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Mickey Arthur was a coach of Pakistan cricket team not a selector
Fahdi
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I don't see many people saying that at all. I think at best they may have managed to average 30(would be miraculous) but most likely 40+. That said what I am criticising Misbah for is the complete lack of thinking in selection. There is some sense in picking guys like Ehsan and Sameen, both are doing somewhat well in FC at the moment and both have good height, especially Ehsan. The selections of Musa and Imran though made no sense, they weren't performing in FC cricket and neither were they very well suited to the conditions. Yasir had been badly exposed in SA, AUS and Eng yet we continue to depend upon him as if he's Shane Warne.
I made my peace with the fact that we were in for a thrashing but I at least expect some proper thinking and planning from the team management, even if it's going to be in vain put in some proper thought into coming up with a plan to win.
Dr_Bassim
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Alright lets play.
Which coach would have led Pakistan to a competitive series in Australia let alone win it?
I want names.
Not hypothetical scenarios in which certain players who are not playing would have changed the complexion of the game, much like Abbas was expected to do but didn't do in the 2nd test so far.
Lets name a coach who would have done things differently?
Mickey? Because he was clamoring for bringing back Malik and Hafeez's.
So who else?
Lets hear it.
Titan24
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Point wasnt regarding England rather a false theory that with more time in a particular sport teams start to become the best and remain such in every era and decade.
Just like BD is a proud nation Pakistan is too and there is no point and in bringing same points regarding empty barrel, lack of skills along with taunts like "Abhi tou shuruaat hai" etc. Everybody can see poor performances but, just like other fans of any sport or team Pak fans talking about their team and thinking about certain strategies doesnt make them delusional. Its like saying everytime a stadium is full in BD to watch their team play, they are delusional to come in and expect anything, it doesnt work this way.
Yes expectations should be realistic but sports are all about hope, thrill, adrenaline rush which as a fan remains even when team isnt doing well.
That Ian Chappell taunt is a pretty cheap dig and I hope you can understand the irony in it coming from your keyboard after BDs performance in India. Also Ian Chappel can only criticize teams which actually have toured Aus not the ones who played only a couple of matches including one in Mazara cricket ground and other in Carly's stadium, the stadiums which I am not sure if even many Australians know of.
Let Aus invite BD first and than your wish of Ian Chappell's or some other ex captain's comments might be granted but I hope you still remain happy.
Point wasnt regarding England rather a false theory that with more time in a particular sport teams start to become the best and remain such in every era and decade.
Just like BD is a proud nation Pakistan is too and there is no point and in bringing same points regarding empty barrel, lack of skills along with taunts like "Abhi tou shuruaat hai" etc. Everybody can see poor performances but, just like other fans of any sport or team Pak fans talking about their team and thinking about certain strategies doesnt make them delusional. Its like saying everytime a stadium is full in BD to watch their team play, they are delusional to come in and expect anything, it doesnt work this way.
Yes expectations should be realistic but sports are all about hope, thrill, adrenaline rush which as a fan remains even when team isnt doing well.
That Ian Chappell taunt is a pretty cheap dig and I hope you can understand the irony in it coming from your keyboard after BDs performance in India. Also Ian Chappel can only criticize teams which actually have toured Aus not the ones who played only a couple of matches including one in Mazara cricket ground and other in Carly's stadium, the stadiums which I am not sure if even many Australians know of.
Let Aus invite BD first and than your wish of Ian Chappell's or some other ex captain's comments might be granted but I hope you still remain happy.
We are not moving you seen- let’s stop here.
All I know is, in 1991 or sometimes an Australian university team came to Bangladesh for a study tour ..... and they played couple of cricket games, against a team containing half of BD national players, and we went there to watch that game - from there on, we are going to play Test cricket against Aussies. And, at similar time, another team won a WC in Australia.... and tonight they’ll resume their Test there ...., to the disgust of their fans ...... and I can understand who is setting what standard.
Chrish
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You guys simply don't have good enough players. The ones with the potential are too raw.
Selectors can't be expected to fix the issue overnight. The problem lies at the grass-root level where players develop. India had a failed system so they didn't come up with pacers for decades. Look at now.
Selectors can't be expected to fix the issue overnight. The problem lies at the grass-root level where players develop. India had a failed system so they didn't come up with pacers for decades. Look at now.
Kroll
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Okay there isn't a gluttony of talent waiting on the sidelines but there's no fight, no jazba, no josh, players just going through the motions, the whole side just looks demoralised.
It's up to Misbah and Azhar to get these guys motivated and fighting for the star and crescent on their jerseys but Misbah's out of his depth and Azhar just looks clueless.
Titan24
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We are not moving you seen- let’s stop here.
All I know is, in 1991 or sometimes an Australian university team came to Bangladesh for a study tour ..... and they played couple of cricket games, against a team containing half of BD national players, and we went there to watch that game - from there on, we are going to play Test cricket against Aussies. And, at similar time, another team won a WC in Australia.... and tonight they’ll resume their Test there ...., to the disgust of their fans ...... and I can understand who is setting what standard.
Other team still beats Aus at home on occasions which is better than never. While standard set by BD (Which has barrel full with blossoming youngsters) in subcontinent recently will be tough to match as well.
Expected a better comeback but will take it as barrel is really getting empty by the looks of it.
Cricket lover 27
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I am sorry to be blunt but no former captain says that about Bangladesh team because they are not even worthy to be invited whether they learn to play or not.
Abdullah719
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No more discussion about Bangladesh here please.
sshakir411
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LOL. Misbah and Waqar had their chances but hey long live the lobby that brought hem back
Colorblind Genius
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I absolutely am hating watching Pakistan cricket right now. I could not ever imagine finding cricket so repulsive to watch.
Pathetic tactics and defensive game style. Bowlers like Irfan who we had long shunned bowling for us again. Garbage players like Asif and Ifthikar playing as specialist batsmen.
Its simply terrible and painful to watch Pakistan cricket right now. May this misery ends soon.
welcome to the club.
Many of us fans have been going through this misery as of 2010.
Rana
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I feel like Bilal Saeed today...
aaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaa
Colorblind Genius
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Rana
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King_Kohli
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Pakistan last 9 Test series in SENA
0-3 vs SA (Whitewash)
2-2 vs Eng
0-2 vs NZ (Whitewash)
0-3 vs Aus (Whitewash)
1-1 vs Eng
0-3 vs SA (Whitewash)
0-2 vs Aus (Whitewash)
0-1 vs Eng
0-2 vs NZ (Whitewash)
0-3 vs SA (Whitewash)
2-2 vs Eng
0-2 vs NZ (Whitewash)
0-3 vs Aus (Whitewash)
1-1 vs Eng
0-3 vs SA (Whitewash)
0-2 vs Aus (Whitewash)
0-1 vs Eng
0-2 vs NZ (Whitewash)
Line and Length
Tape Ball Regular
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What’s India’s record look like, if you don’t mind, please.
Haripotter
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Atleast they are giving fight to England and that is all that matters
Slim
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Our team was not that hapless, man.
in_cutter
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Pakistan cricket has been painful to watch overseas for many years (apart from Eng)
Hasan123
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You guys only fell this way under Waqar and Misbah? I felt like this under Sarfraz and Mickey. At one stage we lost 20 out of 25 ODIs during that period. We had to deal with Sarfaraz scandal in South Africa and his embarrassing comments about India being scared to play us and they destroyed us months later. Could go on.
But I have felt this depressed about Pakistan cricket for a while before Misbah took over.
But I have felt this depressed about Pakistan cricket for a while before Misbah took over.
Mamoon
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Our team was not that hapless, man.
26 defeats in last 30 ODIs under Arthur.
Lost Test series to NZ in UAE before getting whitewashed in South Africa.
Pakistan was rubbish under Arthur as well. We are simply not good enough. It doesn’t matter who the coach is.
Pakistan is one of the least talented and skilled cricket teams out there. Flukes like CT don’t happen every day.
observer1
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Mamoon
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Flukes often happen in CT. West Indies also fluked it in 2004 and New Zealand fluked it in 2000, back when it was a pure knockout format.
In the CT, a 3-4 game streak is enough to win the trophy. You do not need consistency; just good fortune and a few players punching above their weight for a couple of games.
Everything went Pakistan’s way in that tournament. 99/100 times, Pakistan will kho come close to winning the CT in the same conditions with the same set of players.
Pakistan is a deeply mediocre team that will lose to the likes of India, England and Australia 9/10 times. Even New Zealand and South Africa will beat us more often than not.
The fluke nature of the CT was exposed when we got thrashed 5-0 in New Zealand few months after the CT, and then India thrashed us in the 2018 Asia Cup without Kohli.
Slim
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Time for Misbah Waqar to go!
iniqbal223
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People compare Misbah's Best vs Arthur's Worst
to justify their Parchi Misbah
to justify their Parchi Misbah
iniqbal223
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0-3 vs SA (Whitewash) : Waqar
2-2 vs Eng : Mickey
0-2 vs NZ (Whitewash) : Mickey
0-3 vs Aus (Whitewash) : Mickey
1-1 vs Eng : Mickey
0-3 vs SA (Whitewash) : Mickey
0-2 vs Aus (Whitewash) : Misbah
0-1 vs Eng : Misbah (could be 3-0, rain saved Pakistan)
0-2 vs NZ (Whitewash) : Misbah
So, how come Misbah is even better than Mickey (even when he had all the powers and all the possible posts to produce results)
SangasCoverDrive
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So CT was a fluke but Pakistan getting to no 1 ranking in Tests wasn’t? If I remember Pakistan only got there because a match between India and West Indies got washed out and that was the reason Pakistan dropped back to 5 within a blink of an eye.
Rana
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I can’t wait to celebrate on the day when Misbah is released from this job. It will be short lived because he will be back at some point in some capacity, but it will be a day of great celebration indeed!
Mamoon
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Pakistan may have lucked out with the washout between India and West Indies, but they played excellent cricket between October 2014 and September 2016.
They beat full-strength teams and also drew 2-2 in England.
A significantly better achievement than fluking a CT with 2-3 one-off wins due to luck.
UzmanBeast
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The test achievement wasn't a fluke because we were a very good test team under Misbah, anyone here would agree.
THE CT17 can be considered a fluke only because Pakistan were unable to carry on their winning momentum as they got hammered and squashed like bugs in the next few series like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] mentioned. A team that actually had the quality to win that tournament would have carried kn their winning momentum, like England, who massacred us just a few days ago with their C team.
If CT17 was not a fluke, why did we proceed to get hammered repeatedly afterwards? Where was the consistency? We had the same bunch of players, so you can't say there were massive changes.
SangasCoverDrive
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But I remember Pakistan losing a Test against NZ at Sharjah especially the day after the tragic death of Phil Hughes which led NZ to call off the day he died and yet McCullum murdered the spinners of Pakistan and I remember in the same period, Pakistan had to rely on time-wasting and bad light to rob England off a Test victory in Abu Dhabi. Same England team which couldn't buy a run even in Bangladesh next year. Your double standards are astounding.
SangasCoverDrive
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If the Test achievement wasn't a fluke? Why did we proceed to get hammered repeatedly afterwards? Lost 2-0 to NZ and 3-0 to Australia, Lost a Test series against SL and a Test against WI in our so called home?
Mamoon
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In spite of losing the Sharjah Test, the series was 1-1.
England were minutes away from winning in Abu Dhabi, but we did win the next two Tests to take the series 2-0.
Pakistan played a lot of big series during that period and did not lose any, including the one in England which in fact should have been a 2-1 win for Pakistan if it wasn’t for one awful session in Birmingham.
Overall, Pakistan were the better team in that series and outplayed England except for the Manchester Test.
These are worthy achievements. They were of course expected to slide down the rankings afterwards because we were never going to win in Australia and New Zealand.
On the other hand, the CT winning team lost 5-0 in New Zealand and got humiliated by India and even Bangladesh in the Asia Cup, proving that the CT was a flash in the pan.
UzmanBeast
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Have we ever won a test series in Australia?
If you were watching that series, you'd understand that we made extremely good steps in the batting department, and our bowling let us down.
Still, that series and the New Zealand series were disappointing due to Misbah and Younis starting to fail, but against SL, I'm pretty sure Misbah and Younis retired by that time, and that was a massive change in our middle order which would hamper our performances for the next few years due to no replacements.
Again, losing 1 test to the West Indies was inconsequential if we still won the series.
My turn for the questions, how do you explain Pakistan's pathetic decline after that CT17 final, winning only 8 games out of I think 36 against the top ranked nations? If that wasn't a fluke, surely that record should have been better. How do you explain losing to Australia in the UAE, at home, 5-0? Quite a poor series isn't it.
CT17 was a flop, and it did us no good because it made us think that we could win from poor positions, and it made our already delusional fan base more delusional.
If you were watching that series, you'd understand that we made extremely good steps in the batting department, and our bowling let us down.
Still, that series and the New Zealand series were disappointing due to Misbah and Younis starting to fail, but against SL, I'm pretty sure Misbah and Younis retired by that time, and that was a massive change in our middle order which would hamper our performances for the next few years due to no replacements.
Again, losing 1 test to the West Indies was inconsequential if we still won the series.
My turn for the questions, how do you explain Pakistan's pathetic decline after that CT17 final, winning only 8 games out of I think 36 against the top ranked nations? If that wasn't a fluke, surely that record should have been better. How do you explain losing to Australia in the UAE, at home, 5-0? Quite a poor series isn't it.
CT17 was a flop, and it did us no good because it made us think that we could win from poor positions, and it made our already delusional fan base more delusional.
Mamoon
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The Test series loss to Sri Lanka was the first series Pakistan played after the Misbah era.
Losing to West Indies at Sharjah was a bad result but we did win the series.
I am not saying we were an amazing Test side in that period. My point is that becoming the number 1 ranked team and the consistency that we showed in the 2014-16 period was more impressive and noteworthy than a 2-3 match winning streak in the CT.
Mamoon
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2016-17 was Pakistan’s best chance of winning a series in Australia since 1999 and we scored more than enough runs to actually win if not draw the series.
The bowling in that series was absolutely horrendous. It was the sole reason why Pakistan got whitewashed.
UzmanBeast
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I agree, our bowlers were poor to say the least. If the bowling was better, we would have taken the series. I do blame our tactics in that series as well, especially with Wahab Riaz. If I recall correctly, he only started bowling bouncers and short-pitched when the batsmen were set, though even he should have known that he has no other skills apart from decent bouncers.
Mamoon
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Even during the CT run, had Pakistan played an ODI series against India, England, Australia and New Zealand, they would have lost each and every series.
That is why the CT win was inferior to winning the Test mace.
That is why the CT win was inferior to winning the Test mace.
SangasCoverDrive
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The hell is this "we outperformed them in xyz sessions" bakwaas? Same could be said about that Pak vs WI series, I remember Pakistan got bowled out for a low total in the second innings of the match and WI outperformed Pakistan in that session and next day where Darren Bravo scored a quick century, so does that mean Pakistan deserved to lose that series 2-0?
SangasCoverDrive
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But didn't you just agree with me few days ago that Test cricket is easier than LOI cricket?
UzmanBeast
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Moreover, during that period of test cricket, we saw the emergence of some very good cricketers. Obviously, some failed to live up to their potential, but guys like Asad shafiq, Yasir Shah, Azhar Ali, and more emerged and became members of the team.
The CT17 forced us to survive on Malik and Hafeez whenever something went wrong, and that's a major reason why we have such a huge void in our middle order.
It also led to the early inclusion of raw youngsters in Shadab and Faheem, who became mainstays without performances.
UzmanBeast
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Explain to us, through what logic, is consistency over a 2-3 year period a fluke but 4 games isn't?
Any team can fluke 4 games. If teams could fluke years of performances, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, and West Indies would be better teams.
Mamoon
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On flat pitches, batting in Test cricket is easier because you do not have to cope with run-rate pressure.
Although that has absolutely nothing to do with the context of this discussion.
We are comparing 2 years worth of Test performances with 3-4 ODI wins.
Mamoon
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From 2017 to 2019, the same set of Pakistani players and the same of Indian players played 5 ODI matches.
India won 4 out of the 5 matches. What does that say about the CT Final?
It was a collective nightmare for India - a complete off-day. It was Pakistan’s destiny to win that day. Otherwise, 9/10 times, India would be winning that game.
India won 4 out of the 5 matches. What does that say about the CT Final?
It was a collective nightmare for India - a complete off-day. It was Pakistan’s destiny to win that day. Otherwise, 9/10 times, India would be winning that game.
Mamoon
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After the CT, Pakistan under Mickey had multiple opportunities to prove that the CT wasn’t a fluke result.
The ODI series in New Zealand in Jan 2018 (lost 5-0).
The 2018 Asia Cup (got hammered by a Kohli-less India twice and Bangladesh).
The ODI series vs Australia in UAE (lost 5-0).
Granted that we rested some main players in that series, but the replacements actually outperformed the main players.
Rizwan and Haris both scored two hundreds a piece.
Babar wouldn’t have bettered Haris’ performance in that series and Sarfraz wouldn’t have scored 2 hundreds in a million years.
The 2019 ODI series in England - lost 4-0, and only avoided whitewash because of rain.
The World Cup - very average tournament, ended up with the third worst NRR among all teams.
At each and every step, Mickey’s Pakistan proved, with flying colors, that the CT was a massive fluke.
Those who object to that notion would have never put their money on Pakistan winning the CT if they were into betting.
The ODI series in New Zealand in Jan 2018 (lost 5-0).
The 2018 Asia Cup (got hammered by a Kohli-less India twice and Bangladesh).
The ODI series vs Australia in UAE (lost 5-0).
Granted that we rested some main players in that series, but the replacements actually outperformed the main players.
Rizwan and Haris both scored two hundreds a piece.
Babar wouldn’t have bettered Haris’ performance in that series and Sarfraz wouldn’t have scored 2 hundreds in a million years.
The 2019 ODI series in England - lost 4-0, and only avoided whitewash because of rain.
The World Cup - very average tournament, ended up with the third worst NRR among all teams.
At each and every step, Mickey’s Pakistan proved, with flying colors, that the CT was a massive fluke.
Those who object to that notion would have never put their money on Pakistan winning the CT if they were into betting.
UzmanBeast
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I believe there was also an ODI series against South Africa which we lost 3-2.
All the results prove that the CT17 was a fluke, undeniably.
Mickey was a horrific coach who only got respect from Pakistani fans after his retirement because he knew how to say fancy words and make excuses in press conferences, just like Misbah.
The point is that our cricket has remained the same whereas teams around the world have improved considerably.
RyanRyan10
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What if Misbah gets sacked and Rizwan gets appointed as captain?
Rana
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Then I will wait for another day of celebration
Slim
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Kroll
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In all honesty, Rizwan could be a good captain, seems a far more outgoing and confident personality than Babar. But getting rid of Misbah once and for all and the dross he serves up is an absolute priority.
iniqbal223
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I lost trust
I was avid fan of Misbah;
But what he is doing now, I feel disappointed and also feels how corrupt he is.. that simplicity on the field when he was the captain.. now shows how awful he is now
He simply has no excuse now when he was made all powerful; but really feel sorry for fans , what he has come up with is nothing short of embarassment by producing worst possible results
People might say otherwise , but not only Misbah (which used to have clean image) our most of other ex cricketers are also same
Full with : likes/dislikes; playing mind games; getting jealous with next generation of cricketers; abusing them live on TV (Abdul Razzaq)
I was avid fan of Misbah;
But what he is doing now, I feel disappointed and also feels how corrupt he is.. that simplicity on the field when he was the captain.. now shows how awful he is now
He simply has no excuse now when he was made all powerful; but really feel sorry for fans , what he has come up with is nothing short of embarassment by producing worst possible results
People might say otherwise , but not only Misbah (which used to have clean image) our most of other ex cricketers are also same
Full with : likes/dislikes; playing mind games; getting jealous with next generation of cricketers; abusing them live on TV (Abdul Razzaq)
rockyboy2018
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Well, Misbah and Waqar are not the problems. Even if you hire the best coach in the world, - the results will be the same. Sacking coach after coach is not the problem. Real talent is not there. That's the reality.
It is the same story with hockey, soccer, tennis and you name it.
Living in a delusion does not change reality.
Saying Pakistan Zindabad does not change reality. As a country, Pakistan is lagging behind.
iniqbal223
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Then they should make talent
Do they only think everyone should be born cricketer; other teams make cricketers
But we never do
Problem is mind set , person like Misbah can’t make high ranking team , just see his body language during match , does not look positive , always shaky , not sure what’s going to happen , those have seen 80’s & 90’s Pakistan cricket team it was mind set and body language of team , was always very positive, they look always confident , even young players too so it’s not only talent and skill important it’s leader important, recent example is Mcculum he transformed whole NZ team.
Mamoon
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It is painful to watch the talentless and mentally weak Pakistani cricketers play.
Misbah simply finds himself at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Misbah simply finds himself at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Golden arm
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Days of pure talent and guts are gone
On top of that our coaches with dead brains icing on the cake for accelerating the death of international quality cricket.
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