Pakistan’s secret atheists

[Enigma_]

Madrassah itself isn't a problem. Atheists asking to shut down madrassah and getting rid of Mullah is against the exact same thing what they are trying to advocate. There is a term for it, "hypocrite".

The problem is and will remain to be in near future is what is being taught at those Madrassah by unqualified Mullahs.

You can't ask for the freedom of religion or views while asking to shut down Madrassah, this make you an educated radical atheists (only if you are atheist).

Muslim countries are Muslim countries because majority of the people in those countries want that country to be a Muslim country, that's how democracy works, majority wins. It's another thing some Muslim countries do not tolerate or law exist to not protect freedom of religion, e.g atheism ( it is a "religion" if you are trying to preach to change someone not to believe in one thing but believe in something else).

So you disagree that islamophobe has risen in US since 9/11?. Recent acid attack in UK? Those attacker are the same people who would opposed any protection against any Muslim if only they could. The only valid point you have made that Muslim countries should protect everyone rights and law should be amended to protect everyone right.

Like I said, know many atheists in karachi, open atheists, none of them have any problem, you know why? Because they are atheists not "atheists preacher", like evangelical. Because they believe it is some thing that is personal and should be done in private, for them it is between them and no god. That's why these atheists don't go to masjid to pray or fast.

And if you believe that western media is going to ignore anything related to this then you must be watching "Cartoon Network" all your life.

If you don't think Madrassah's and Mullahs are not the biggest root of extremism in Pakistan then you have your head in the sand. Most of these are not even domestic. They are funded by the Saudis across the gulf who love to get their hands dirty and make as many extremists as they can. And what is an unqualified Mullah exactly? This people get degrees do they? Where are they certified from? Saudi Arabia lol? Freedom of religion does not mean that radical elements are allowed to go around free in the name of religion. However I do believe the very basis of Islam is violence as are the other two Abrahamic religions. Generally speaking, they tend to lead people to violence. I don't disagree that islamaphobes have risen. But fgs most of these states protect most of their rights even to this day. In most muslim majority countries people of other faiths are considered subhuman. In regards to atheism preachers; this is completely fallacy. I have never seen an Atheist go around handing pamphlets out or starting indoctrination schools to get people to leave God. Lets say for a second you're right. That they do preach. What's wrong with that exactly? Does Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc. not preach? If religion was truly a matter of someone and God why does the Pakistani state enforce Islam on its citizens?

As for media I have no idea by what you even mean by that.

 

[Mian]

You can be Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Athiest.. that is your choice, but you don't have a choice of abusing and badmouthing the army which is laying down lives so that you can run your mouth.

You may have differences with the policies of Army and the "deep state" but have respect for the institute which is battling a much larger enemy for the last 70 years and is also fighting an insurgency for the last 15. If you want to spew filth against the army you are most welcome to get up and go your own way, lets see how far you get.

That's the problem with these desi atheists their whole faith starts by bashing Pak Army 24/7 for all the issues in country. How many atheists lost their life serving the country in army? or in bomb blasts that happen in mosques, derbars, imama bargahs etc

 

[yasir]

Madrassah itself isn't a problem. Atheists asking to shut down madrassah and getting rid of Mullah is against the exact same thing what they are trying to advocate. There is a term for it, "hypocrite".

The problem is and will remain to be in near future is what is being taught at those Madrassah by unqualified Mullahs.

You can't ask for the freedom of religion or views while asking to shut down Madrassah, this make you an educated radical atheists (only if you are atheist).

Muslim countries are Muslim countries because majority of the people in those countries want that country to be a Muslim country, that's how democracy works, majority wins. It's another thing some Muslim countries do not tolerate or law exist to not protect freedom of religion, e.g atheism ( it is a "religion" if you are trying to preach to change someone not to believe in one thing but believe in something else).

So you disagree that islamophobe has risen in US since 9/11?. Recent acid attack in UK? Those attacker are the same people who would opposed any protection against any Muslim if only they could. The only valid point you have made that Muslim countries should protect everyone rights and law should be amended to protect everyone right.

Like I said, know many atheists in karachi, open atheists, none of them have any problem, you know why? Because they are atheists not "atheists preacher", like evangelical. Because they believe it is some thing that is personal and should be done in private, for them it is between them and no god. That's why these atheists don't go to masjid to pray or fast.

And if you believe that western media is going to ignore anything related to this then you must be watching "Cartoon Network" all your life.

So White Country is a White's country, they can make racist law?? - Muslims can make discriminatory laws because there holly book said so??

Blasphemy, apostasy is OK?? - Why that is OK to discriminate by law (and in many case by force) against Atheists?

 

[Enigma_]

That's the problem with these desi atheists their whole faith starts by bashing Pak Army 24/7 for all the issues in country. How many atheists lost their life serving the country in army? or in bomb blasts that happen in mosques, derbars, imama bargahs etc

Oh so you've shifted gears again. You've gone from Atheists are extremists and likened them to the likes of the Taliban. Then you have said they enforce their ideals upon you and then you've deflected to them criticising the army. Righto.

 

[hafeezrocks]

Yah. The Pakistani atheists hate the Army with passion, it's another distinct and common feature that brings them together.

 

[yasir]

You can be Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Athiest.. that is your choice, but you don't have a choice of abusing and badmouthing the army which is laying down lives so that you can run your mouth.

You may have differences with the policies of Army and the "deep state" but have respect for the institute which is battling a much larger enemy for the last 70 years and is also fighting an insurgency for the last 15. If you want to spew filth against the army you are most welcome to get up and go your own way, lets see how far you get.

That's the problem with these desi atheists their whole faith starts by bashing Pak Army 24/7 for all the issues in country. How many atheists lost their life serving the country in army? or in bomb blasts that happen in mosques, derbars, imama bargahs etc

Now Critiquing Army is also Blasphemy??

You have answer to any arguments or everything should be dealt with force? - Why so insecure, should have little trust in the intellectual power of your beloved faith and Army

 

[Enigma_]

Yah. The Pakistani atheists hate the Army with passion, it's another distinct and common feature that Unites them all.

Criticising the army is not illegal for crying out loud.

 

[Mian]

Oh so you've shifted gears again. You've gone from Atheists are extremists and likened them to the likes of the Taliban. Then you have said they enforce their ideals upon you and then you've deflected to them criticising the army. Righto.

Nah for me they are extremists nuts so don't foold yourself if you think im going to change my mindset about them. Coming back to my point about these crying baby Pakistani atheists how many of then lost their life in attacks? Christians and other religious minorities i know lost many but how many atheists lost their life? Last i remember some atheists bloggers were gone missing for their ****** posts against majority religion of this country they came back home after a few days.

 

[Syed1]

Now Critiquing Army is also Blasphemy??

You have answer to any arguments or everything should be dealt with force? - Why so insecure, should have little trust in the intellectual power of your beloved faith and Army

Sir you have very less credibility these days since only yesterday you wrote a long post of how all of this Panama Papers and JIT is conspiracy against Nawaz Sharif by the Pakistan Army. So I have better things to do in my live than to argue with folks with that kind of mentality.

 

[Enigma_]

Nah for me they are extremists nuts so don't foold yourself if you think im going to change my mindset about them. Coming back to my point about these crying baby Pakistani atheists how many of then lost their life in attacks? Christians and other religious minorities i know lost many but how many atheists lost their life? Last i remember some atheists bloggers were gone missing for their ****** posts against majority religion of this country they came back home after a few days.

Bold part --> Yeah don't worry about that, I figured that out a long time ago.

Ignorance at its finest if you think Atheists haven't lost their lives in these attacks. They've lost lives just for speaking out. And I doubt you honestly care about Christians or any other minority to be perfectly honest. Don't strike me as that type of character. And why do you think they went missing?

 

[www787]

If you don't think Madrassah's and Mullahs are not the biggest root of extremism in Pakistan then you have your head in the sand. Most of these are not even domestic. They are funded by the Saudis across the gulf who love to get their hands dirty and make as many extremists as they can. And what is an unqualified Mullah exactly? This people get degrees do they? Where are they certified from? Saudi Arabia lol? Freedom of religion does not mean that radical elements are allowed to go around free in the name of religion. However I do believe the very basis of Islam is violence as are the other two Abrahamic religions. Generally speaking, they tend to lead people to violence. I don't disagree that islamaphobes have risen. But fgs most of these states protect most of their rights even to this day. In most muslim majority countries people of other faiths are considered subhuman. In regards to atheism preachers; this is completely fallacy. I have never seen an Atheist go around handing pamphlets out or starting indoctrination schools to get people to leave God. Lets say for a second you're right. That they do preach. What's wrong with that exactly? Does Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc. not preach? If religion was truly a matter of someone and God why does the Pakistani state enforce Islam on its citizens?

As for media I have no idea by what you even mean by that.

Again! you are asking for something to be shut down, which is their right to believe in what they want to believe, which is HYPOCRITE of you because you do not believe in it.

You can not and should not when you are trying to advocate freedom of "believe".

Talking about Saudi funding Madrassah. regarding that i have said multiple time, it is the what being taught at those Madrassah, which is distorted version to further their agenda.

What you believe about islam is your personal believe and opinion. I am not going to discuss that with you, because it is an endless discussion. That is your conclusion probably after you have read multiple sources.

In regards to Qualification, you can search many Iman and Scholars who are teaching Islam and none of them would advocate killing or disrespecting anyone believe, but would be okay to engage in discussion in a peaceful manner if they are engaged, thats what qualification mean.

Nothing wrong in preaching but stop asking to shut down Madrassah when you are okay to preach your religion, it makes you hypocrite.

 

[boomboomcheema]

You can be Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Athiest.. that is your choice, but you don't have a choice of abusing and badmouthing the army which is laying down lives so that you can run your mouth.

You may have differences with the policies of Army and the "deep state" but have respect for the institute which is battling a much larger enemy for the last 70 years and is also fighting an insurgency for the last 15. If you want to spew filth against the army you are most welcome to get up and go your own way, lets see how far you get.

I made a similar point on the first page of this thread. We will never see these firebrand atheists ever picking weapons again the Terrorists like Taliban that they hate so much and would rather bash the Army who defends the country against Taliban. Bunch of hypocrites.

All these atheists are on a mission to create a rift between the Army and the people and instigating people to hate the Forces and blame them for all the problems in the Country .

I would go on to say that Atheists are the biggest traitors of Pakistan.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Yah. The Pakistani atheists hate the Army with passion, it's another distinct and common feature that brings them together.

Is this a real thing, or just invested on PP a few mins ago between you and Mian?

I've never heard this atheists hate Army BS before... is it a case of having nothing else to say so clutching at straws?

 

[Mian]

Bold part --> Yeah don't worry about that, I figured that out a long time ago.

Ignorance at its finest if you think Atheists haven't lost their lives in these attacks. They've lost lives just for speaking out. And I doubt you honestly care about Christians or any other minority to be perfectly honest. Don't strike me as that type of character. And why do you think they went missing?

If you figured that out long time ago than why are you wasting your energy on me? Don't you have better things to do in life than defending these nuts.

 

[Enigma_]

I made a similar point on the first page of this thread. We will never see these firebrand atheists ever picking weapons again the Terrorists like Taliban that they hate so much and would rather bash the Army who defends the country against Taliban. Bunch of hypocrites.

All these atheists are on a mission to create a rift between the Army and the people and instigating people to hate the Forces and blame them for all the problems in the Country .

I would go on to say that Atheists are the biggest traitors of Pakistan.

Yeah for sure. Atheists are definitely are on a mission to destroy the Pakistani state. As a matter of fact I would say they are the biggest problem that face Pakistan right now. They should be eliminated ASAP.

 

[Enigma_]

If you figured that out long time ago than why are you wasting your energy on me? Don't you have better things to do in life than defending these nuts.

Because it is funny. I find amusement in people that are so blinded by religion that they will go to any lengths to defend it. It is remarkable if you think about it. I know that no matter what I say that at the end of the day you simply don't care and that you made your mind up a long time ago.

 

[Mian]

Is this a real thing, or just invested on PP a few mins ago between you and Mian?

I've never heard this atheists hate Army BS before... is it a case of having nothing else to say so clutching at straws?

There are 2 more raising same point not just 2 of us fyi this is a trend that can easily be seen in Pakistani atheists. Want to see an example? Check yasir and dw44 posts in army related threads or visit Twitter

 

[www787]

So White Country is a White's country, they can make racist law?? - Muslims can make discriminatory laws because there holly book said so??

Blasphemy, apostasy is OK?? - Why that is OK to discriminate by law (and in many case by force) against Atheists?

I don't think a "white" country exist in this world, that would be a racist country if it were to exist in 2017.

 

[Third_Umpire]

There are 2 more raising same point not just 2 of us fyi this is a trend that can easily be seen in Pakistani atheists. Want to see an example? Check yasir and dw44 posts in army related threads or visit Twitter

So three of you and two of them, and you have a decision! wow.

Now let me trip you a little... I'm an atheist, and I don't hate the army. <---- WHAT JUST HAPPENED???

 

[Enigma_]

Again! you are asking for something to be shut down, which is their right to believe in what they want to believe, which is HYPOCRITE of you because you do not believe in it.

You can not and should not when you are trying to advocate freedom of "believe".

Talking about Saudi funding Madrassah. regarding that i have said multiple time, it is the what being taught at those Madrassah, which is distorted version to further their agenda.

What you believe about islam is your personal believe and opinion. I am not going to discuss that with you, because it is an endless discussion. That is your conclusion probably after you have read multiple sources.

In regards to Qualification, you can search many Iman and Scholars who are teaching Islam and none of them would advocate killing or disrespecting anyone believe, but would be okay to engage in discussion in a peaceful manner if they are engaged, thats what qualification mean.

Nothing wrong in preaching but stop asking to shut down Madrassah when you are okay to preach your religion, it makes you hypocrite.

I am an ex-muslim. Thankfully I live in a secular society. God knows what would've happened otherwise. So my views on Islam are pretty well versed thank you very much.

You said Atheists shouldn't preach and that's what makes them 'hated'. But then you defend religious institutions that indoctrinate people from their very early childhood. That's not freedom of religion. If anything that is restriction of will. Not to mention these people advocating killing anyone that is a nonbeliever.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Because it is funny. I find amusement in people that are so blinded by religion that they will go to any lengths to defend it. It is remarkable if you think about it. I know that no matter what I say that at the end of the day you simply don't care and that you made your mind up a long time ago.

Religious people accuse atheists of being arrogant. It's not arrogance...it's an unwillingness/lack of patience to bash heads against a wall, which is what it feels like to talk to a close minded religious person.

 

[hafeezrocks]

Is this a real thing, or just invested on PP a few mins ago between you and Mian?

I've never heard this atheists hate Army BS before... is it a case of having nothing else to say so clutching at straws?

Just carefully analyze the pattern of posts from the Chest Thumping Atheists of this forum and you will notice one common feature.

One is their hate for Religion and other is their Hate of the Army. At any given point of time, you could notice them spreading hatred against either the Army or Religion by citing various conspiracy theories and posting anti-Islam stuff. It's not too difficult to notice if you carefully observe.

 

[Logical]

This is a huge issue in Pakistan. Freedom of religion should be every citizen's basic right. What's astonishing is some of the replies in these threads. One of the posters claimed atheists are cowards because they hide behind their computer to express their views on atheist/ex Muslim etc. If they are not even safe online how do you expect them to be public about this in their community?

I have lived in Canada for last 18 years and quite frankly whenever a Muslim asks me about fasting, praying etc, my response is simply that im an atheist (Thankfully i wont get slaughtered for that in Canada). However, simply stating that you are an ex Muslim to a Muslim opens up a gigantic can of worms. I find Muslims extremely nosy, and OBLIGATED to preach/judge especially to an ex Muslim. Point being if second gen Muslims are narrow minded here you can only imagine what atheists and ex Muslims go through in Pakistan.

Needless to say im not speaking for all Muslims, i have met a few that mind their own business, perceive ex Muslims as just another human and are not ignorant.

 

[Enigma_]

Religious people accuse atheists of being arrogant. It's not arrogance...it's an unwillingness/lack of patience to bash heads against a wall, which is what it feels like to talk to a close minded religious person.

You're definitely right on the first bit. Most religious people simply won't change their minds because to them their religion is the absolute ideology of existence. God wrote it and no one should ever defy it. I hardly practice getting involved in such pointless endeavors because like this thread it'll lead to nothing but a circular argument. But ignorance needs to be treated one way or another. It has stagnated the entire country.

 

[Mian]

So three of you and two of them, and you have a decision! wow.

Now let me trip you a little... I'm an atheist, and I don't hate the army. <---- WHAT JUST HAPPENED???

There is a minority that think differently in every community maybe you are one of them but so far majority of Pakistani athiests i faced on internet and social media start with bashing Pak Army and yasir DW44 here are 2 very fije examples from tgid thread

 

[Third_Umpire]

Just carefully analyze the pattern of posts from the Chest Thumping Atheists of this forum and you will notice one common feature.

One is their hate for Religion and other is their Hate of the Army. At any given point of time, you could notice them spreading hatred against either the Army or Religion by citing various conspiracy theories and posting anti-Islam stuff. It's not too difficult to notice if you carefully observe.

Anti-religion I get, and recognize. I am myself anti-religion, as it is my observation that religion has negative effects on society. We can debate that.

Anti-army is news to me. I am myself not anti-army, and can't really see the pattern you mention. By nature, atheists question everything (that's how most escape their religious upbringing anyway), so you may see more questioning on all topics, not just Army. That's not necessarily a bad thing...no one or no thing should be above or beyond questioning and accountability. So unfortunately, I can't agree with this anti-army characterization that you're putting forward.

 

[Enigma_]

One is their hate for Religion and other is their Hate of the Army. At any given point of time, you could notice them spreading hatred against either the Army or Religion and posting anti-Islam stuff. It's not too difficult to notice if you carefully observe.

How the hell is this a bad thing?

 

[www787]

I am an ex-muslim. Thankfully I live in a secular society. God knows what would've happened otherwise. So my views on Islam are pretty well versed thank you very much.

You said Atheists shouldn't preach and that's what makes them 'hated'. But then you defend religious institutions that indoctrinate people from their very early childhood. That's not freedom of religion. If anything that is restriction of will. Not to mention these people advocating killing anyone that is a nonbeliever.

Never said Atheist shouldn't preach. that is their right.

Atheist shouldn't preach to close down Madrassah, that is what make them Hypocrite, or Religious nutts, Religiou radical, or Radical Atheist or whatever term in your opinion suits you.

 

[Enigma_]

Never said Atheist shouldn't preach. that is their right.

Atheist shouldn't preach to close down Madrassah, that is what make them Hypocrite, or Religious nutts, Religiou radical, or Radical Atheist or whatever term in your opinion suits you.

These madrassahs teach intolerence. They need to be shut down. We fight extremists but we don't realise that our lack of action is what's making them in the first place. Madrassah's need to be monitored 24/7 at the very least and if any preaching of violence is found then the mullah needs to be imprisoned. This should be a federal offence.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Never said Atheist shouldn't preach. that is their right.

Atheist shouldn't preach to close down Madrassah, that is what make them Hypocrite, or Religious nutts, Religiou radical, or Radical Atheist or whatever term in your opinion suits you.

Those madrassahs that preach hatred should be closed down. Those that deny students a worldly education are also not of much use in today's society. Those taking money from Saudi to further their agenda and cause sectarian violence should be shut. Between the three, you've probably covered 90% of them.

Everyone, atheist or not, should be in favor of doing away with them. Are you not? If so, what does that say about you?

 

[Rafa]

Lol@ Atheists pretending to be some innocent angels.

Genocidal Maniacs that were Atheist:

Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot.

 

[Enigma_]

Lol@ Atheists pretending to be some innocent angels.

Genocidal Maniacs that were Atheist:

Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot.

Where have they said that? More lies. Nice selective memory. That last part isn't even worth replying to.

 

[Mian]

Lol@ Atheists pretending to be some innocent angels.

Genocidal Maniacs that were Atheist:

Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot.

Thank God these athiests are in small numbers here in Pak otherwise these 2 groups mullahs and athiets will make life hell for majority of Pakistanis who are not extremists and are busy with their own lives instead of focusing too much on others life and targeting others views.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Lol@ Atheists pretending to be some innocent angels.

Genocidal Maniacs that were Atheist:

Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot.

Not an iota of truth in that.

Want me to start listing murderous Muslims? PP may run out of server space.

 

[MABA]

Never said Atheist shouldn't preach. that is their right.

Atheist shouldn't preach to close down Madrassah, that is what make them Hypocrite, or Religious nutts, Religiou radical, or Radical Atheist or whatever term in your opinion suits you.

Why shouldn't atheists ask for madrassa to be closed down? Madrassas are a breeding ground for religious extremists which plague Pakistan. When is the last time an atheist blew himself up in Pakistan? Personally I believe that Madrassas should be state sanctioned by proper teachers not some matric fail mullah.

The fact that this thread created such a hype shows what level of intolerance there is in Pakistan. The fact is that even in western countries Muslims will not leave you alone if you tell them that you are atheist. They will always try their best to shame you and try to get you to "revert".

 

[CricketCartoons]

I made a similar point on the first page of this thread. We will never see these firebrand atheists ever picking weapons again the Terrorists like Taliban that they hate so much and would rather bash the Army who defends the country against Taliban. Bunch of hypocrites.

All these atheists are on a mission to create a rift between the Army and the people and instigating people to hate the Forces and blame them for all the problems in the Country .

I would go on to say that Atheists are the biggest traitors of Pakistan.

Quoted for TRUTH! Same here in India..these closet atheists are the moles which are weakening the foundations of this great nation and unravelling its once tightly woven moral fibre. But when they can betray the Creator, then how can we expect loyalty towards anything else.

 

[www787]

Those madrassahs that preach hatred should be closed down. Those that deny students a worldly education are also not of much use in today's society. Those taking money from Saudi to further their agenda and cause sectarian violence should be shut. Between the three, you've probably covered 90% of them.

Everyone, atheist or not, should be in favor of doing away with them. Are you not? If so, what does that say about you?

read again please. People have right to chose what they believe in, this is my personal view.

Now what i said about Madrassah? they have right to exist if people want it but then i also said, what is being taught in those Madrassah is an issue.

so what is that you are trying to tell me? because we are saying the same thing but some of the Radical Atheist want it to be completely shut down. that makes them hypocrite.

 

[www787]

Why shouldn't atheists ask for madrassa to be closed down? Madrassas are a breeding ground for religious extremists which plague Pakistan. When is the last time an atheist blew himself up in Pakistan? Personally I believe that Madrassas should be state sanctioned by proper teachers not some matric fail mullah.

The fact that this thread created such a hype shows what level of intolerance there is in Pakistan. The fact is that even in western countries Muslims will not leave you alone if you tell them that you are atheist. They will always try their best to shame you and try to get you to "revert".

did i not said the same thing in every post?

read the complete discusssion before you jump to conclusion. thank you

 

[Third_Umpire]

read again please. People have right to chose what they believe in, this is my personal view.

Now what i said about Madrassah? they have right to exist if people want it but then i also said, what is being taught in those Madrassah is an issue.

so what is that you are trying to tell me? because we are saying the same thing but some of the Radical Atheist want it to be completely shut down. that makes them hypocrite.

What I'm saying is that the vast majority of these madrassahs are detrimental to our society. As such, they should be shut down. Sounds like you agree with that, then why would you say they have the right to exist?

"Shut down all madrassahs" may sound extreme, but if >90% are corrupted and polluted, then it really is not.

Banning religion in primary and secondary education is a whole different debate. There is some credibility in the suggestion that religion has no role to play in education, that it is a personal belief system. But that is different from madrassahs, which are not really educational institutions... they are a breeding ground for hatred and intolerance.

 

[Pakistanian]

I'm pretty sure everybody has a friend or relative that is pretty skeptical about religion, so it isn't rare.

 

[Enigma_]

Banning religion in primary and secondary education is a whole different debate. There is some credibility in the suggestion that religion has no role to play in education, that it is a personal belief system.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1344913/next-generation-of-militants-may-emerge-from-academic-institutes

 

[Asim_khan]

Oh Come on, I thought you have something serious, this is all you got against them??

Where is extreme racism in this? - How many people have been killed by Sam and Richard in last 2/3 decades fight religion or any new age Atheist or militant Atheist??

I didn't know we were trying to prove that they were leading lynch mobs, anybody with an ounce of sense would know that they target Islam and Muslims more readily than they do other faiths, and even 14 year old boys building clocks aren't safe from their bile.

Any non white person quoting them or using them as some sort of ideal would be cannon fodder in any debate

 

[Sam18696]

It's really sickening to see some posts here. No wonder Pakistan is still a backwards country.

 

[yasir]

What I'm saying is that the vast majority of these madrassahs are detrimental to our society. As such, they should be shut down. Sounds like you agree with that, then why would you say they have the right to exist?

"Shut down all madrassahs" may sound extreme, but if >90% are corrupted and polluted, then it really is not.

Banning religion in primary and secondary education is a whole different debate. There is some credibility in the suggestion that religion has no role to play in education, that it is a personal belief system. But that is different from madrassahs, which are not really educational institutions... they are a breeding ground for hatred and intolerance.

We don't teach superstitions like black magic, nazar, baba totakays, najum etc in schools. Although 1000 years ago, people used to teach and belief in many of those methods of gaining knowledge. Relgious text at many levels is same kid of literature and method of Faith is non-scientific, focus is on memorizing Quran(aka Hafiz). Most of Islamic universities and madrassa are not building critical skills, one can judge from the posters in this thread, the level of critical thinking they have done thus far :

Atleast those 40K madassaras need to be regulated with 21C education needs, Science, reading, math, critical thinking is most, with lot less dose of dogma, otherwise all we are producing is soldiers ready to die on remote control. Religious right is not in any mood to go in that direction.

 

[Third_Umpire]

I didn't know we were trying to prove that they were leading lynch mobs, anybody with an ounce of sense would know that they target Islam and Muslims more readily than they do other faiths, and even 14 year old boys building clocks aren't safe from their bile.

Any non white person quoting them or using them as some sort of ideal would be cannon fodder in any debate

Are you honestly surprised that Islam is targeted more often than others? Surely you're aware of what's going on around the world?

 

[yasir]

I didn't know we were trying to prove that they were leading lynch mobs, anybody with an ounce of sense would know that they target Islam and Muslims more readily than they do other faiths, and even 14 year old boys building clocks aren't safe from their bile.

Any non white person quoting them or using them as some sort of ideal would be cannon fodder in any debate

Last time I heard was 14 year old Christan girl was charged with Blasphemy in Pakistan, a guy was lynced publicly in out of all places, a university and nobody wanted to have his Janaza in his own home town...Whole community of Christan was burned in Lahore, list can be very long...

When that ever happen by so call militant Atheists, Anybody ever killed by militant Atheists?? - That 14 year old boy was let go by authorities, they only asked to investigate further and that happens to be a bigger crime than actually lyncing a guy by mob of 100s?

Liberals(many of them are borderline Atheists) are the most vocal supporter of protecting rights of all minorities in west.

 

[Leo23]

athiesm is a fashion these days. it makes you look cool and intelligent. when i lived in lahore i knew ppl who would question religion but they did not have the courage to admit that they were athiest.

 

[Heisenberg]

The level of hate is astounding. The guy who has decided that extremists and atheists are the same - except one blows people up - has now decided that all atheists hate the army.

They live in atheist countries thanks to the countries being atheists because if they shared each other's tolerance levels they'd still he here. It's the atheists causing all the problems like the extremist mullahs.

 

[Heisenberg]

athiesm is a fashion these days. it makes you look cool and intelligent. when i lived in lahore i knew ppl who would question religion but they did not have the courage to admit that they were athiest.

No it's not cool or fashion. The only thing cool and that you risk your life for is smoking in front of girls

 

[Third_Umpire]

athiesm is a fashion these days. it makes you look cool and intelligent. when i lived in lahore i knew ppl who would question religion but they did not have the courage to admit that they were athiest.

You call it fashion, I call it a wave of enlightenment spreading across the world. In either case we can agree that Islam is definitely out of fashion.

 

[Musakhel]

Negligible numbers here, fortunately most athiest are pretty rich so they migrate to nations which confirm to their ideas, ideally all athiest should leave Pakistan so they can live in peace.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Negligible numbers here, fortunately most athiest are pretty rich so they migrate to nations which confirm to their ideas, ideally all athiest should leave Pakistan so they can live in peace.

Not negligible at all, unless you're choosing to ignore the not so rich and mighty. The rich and mighty can do whatever they want, and no rabid mullah dare touch them, lest they risk their entire family getting razed. It is the common man that suffers, aka Mashal Khan and his like, who don't have an army of armed guards walking behind them.

You can't deny their existence, even though they lay low to avoid being lynched by a rabid mullah mob.

 

[Sam18696]

athiesm is a fashion these days. it makes you look cool and intelligent. when i lived in lahore i knew ppl who would question religion but they did not have the courage to admit that they were athiest.

It's not cool or a fashion. Is it really hard to accept the fact that some people can't have the same beliefs as you?

 

[Arham_PakFan]

I know around 6-7 atheists in Karachi.

 

[Couch Cricketer]

I know around 6-7 atheists in Karachi.

Would you be willing to go to your masjid's imam and tell him that these guys are atheists and how do you think the imam will react? If you have the slightest doubt that this could get these guys killed you will understand the kind of pressure every atheist lives under. Every thing small and large from politics to cricket is discussed in terms of religion. For a person that does not believe in god it is very hard to even talk to friends and family as they might say something that will show them to be atheists.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

The word itself is silly - everyone on this planet is an atheist on some level. Unless of course you believe in every single diety from every single religion.

It would be more accurate to describe such people as anti-theists.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The word itself is silly - everyone on this planet is an atheist on some level. Unless of course you believe in every single diety from every single religion.

It would be more accurate to describe such people as anti-theists.

What a silly post coming from such an esteemed and reputed poster. So anyone is an atheist who does not believe in all the possible, real and fake, divine and man made versions of God and gods?

An atheist is simply someone who believes in the first quarter of the Shahada.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What I'm saying is that the vast majority of these madrassahs are detrimental to our society. As such, they should be shut down. Sounds like you agree with that, then why would you say they have the right to exist?

"Shut down all madrassahs" may sound extreme, but if >90% are corrupted and polluted, then it really is not.

Banning religion in primary and secondary education is a whole different debate. There is some credibility in the suggestion that religion has no role to play in education, that it is a personal belief system. But that is different from madrassahs, which are not really educational institutions... they are a breeding ground for hatred and intolerance.

I think it would be fair to say that most atheists have had access to books and are pretty well read. Therefore it would probably be a great idea to open alternative schools to madrassahs where the Pakistani population could get free education along with free meals.

 

[Black Zero]

Atheists are cowards, too scared to come out to justify their viewpoint and hence glorify each others movement online in anonymity.

Actually they are following Sunnah (remember start of islam?)

 

[TM Riddle]

Quoted for TRUTH! Same here in India..these closet atheists are the moles which are weakening the foundations of this great nation and unravelling its once tightly woven moral fibre. But when they can betray the Creator, then how can we expect loyalty towards anything else.

Did you hear about the ruckus we created in Rajasthan recently? 40 policemen injured.
Your opinion?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Did you hear about the ruckus we created in Rajasthan recently? 40 policemen injured.
Your opinion?

While the state is at fault for not holding a probe and forcible cremation, what is more saddening is the lionising of a gangster by the community (including some of my relatives).

 

[JaDed]

athiesm is a fashion these days. it makes you look cool and intelligent. when i lived in lahore i knew ppl who would question religion but they did not have the courage to admit that they were athiest.

So you think atheism is a fashion statement t,hey are cowards and also homosexuality is unnatural. Do you believe in Science atleast,because I'm assuming evolution is also probably false theory of being propagated by west in your opinion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So you think atheism is a fashion statement t,hey are cowards and also homosexuality is unnatural. Do you believe in Science atleast,because I'm assuming evolution is also probably false theory of being propagated by west in your opinion.

Don't know why you dragged homosexuality into this thread, you are always defensive when your own country is involved, but it's under your popular govt that gay relationships were criminalised.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Don't know why you dragged homosexuality into this thread, you are always defensive when your own country is involved, but it's under your popular govt that gay relationships were criminalised.

That is not true. It was criminalized by the british who were then following their regressive victorian values. The present government has failed in implementing an act which redresses the evil left by the british, for which they should be blamed.

 

[JaDed]

Don't know why you dragged homosexuality into this thread, you are always defensive when your own country is involved, but it's under your popular govt that gay relationships were criminalised.

No,it just wasn't decriminalized and that is regressive no doubt,and I'm defensive about my country surely you can call me up on that,just like I'm calling the poster upon his beliefs.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No,it just wasn't decriminalized and that is regressive no doubt,and I'm defensive about my country surely you can call me up on that,just like I'm calling the poster upon his beliefs.

One day perhaps you will be in a position to be proud of your own country's record in these matters when you are admonishing other posters on such issues. But let's not digress from the topic which is after all about secret atheists in Pakistan.

 

[yasir]

athiesm is a fashion these days. it makes you look cool and intelligent. when i lived in lahore i knew ppl who would question religion but they did not have the courage to admit that they were athiest.

There is no ratification and or Faith to Atheism. Very rarely, if ever you will see illiterate masses as Atheist, there is no incentive given by any govt or group of any kind for people to become Atheist, nor people are Atheist by Birth. On the other hand, religion by and large is by heredity, forced conversion by bullying minorities. Faith has very little to do with intelligence, its actually surrendering you intellect to the almighty in many ways

Atheism is driven by success of Science, more Science gets stronger in every aspect of life, worse it will get for organized religion and superstition of all kinds (religion, race, patriotism, ethnicity etc). Fun part is conservatives are forced to invest in Science such is the power of it. As I said Science is the best revenge for religion :

 

[Asim_khan]

There is no ratification and or Faith to Atheism. Very rarely, if ever you will see illiterate masses as Atheist, there is no incentive given by any govt or group of any kind for people to become Atheist, nor people are Atheist by Birth. On the other hand, religion by and large is by heredity, forced conversion by bullying minorities. Faith has very little to do with intelligence, its actually surrendering you intellect to the almighty in many ways

Atheism is driven by success of Science, more Science gets stronger in every aspect of life, worse it will get for organized religion and superstition of all kinds (religion, race, patriotism, ethnicity etc). Fun part is conservatives are forced to invest in Science such is the power of it. As I said Science is the best revenge for religion :

Yet some of the great scientists of yesteryear were also Islamic jurists.

Infact there are currently scientists more talented and knowledgeable than we'll ever be, who also happen to be religious, what gives?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is no ratification and or Faith to Atheism. Very rarely, if ever you will see illiterate masses as Atheist, there is no incentive given by any govt or group of any kind for people to become Atheist, nor people are Atheist by Birth.

This is one of the reasons I suggested that the Pakistan govt should provide free schooling as an alternative to madrassahs. If free meals were provided as in atheist friendly societies along with free laptops and tablets, that would mean all Pakistani kids could access worldwide education. A simple and elegant solution.

 

[yasir]

This is one of the reasons I suggested that the Pakistan govt should provide free schooling as an alternative to madrassahs. If free meals were provided as in atheist friendly societies along with free laptops and tablets, that would mean all Pakistani kids could access worldwide education. A simple and elegant solution.

One of the key thing they focus in West, is to take religion and dogma out of the class room. First they took religion out of politics or at least legal system. Motto is "Purpose of education is not what to believe but how to think"... Critical thinking is key to building strong intellectual foundation, that is not what militarized societies want, nor what traditionalist, conservatives like...But they are kind of forced to invest in those institutions because even jobs and economic growth is not possible with critical thinking and reason base Science, ratification can take you only so far...

Internet has helped Science and reason based thinking culture a whole lot...Back in 70s, Carl Sagon's Cosmos, inspired millions towards Science, now internet is helping spread Science in even muslim cultures.

When Dawkins book "God Delusion" was translated to Arabic (not officially but by some Arab liberal), within 24 hours it was downloaded million and a half times, half of those download came from Kingdom. I saw one interview of Dawkins on a Persian liberal community here is USA, they were telling him that his name was one of the top 5 searches in Iran back in 2013/14/15, in people age 15-30, that was shocking to him. Actually if he comes to any of the muslim country without any threat and violence from right, people would be surprise the kind of welcome he will get by young generation. There is lot of appetite for reason base knowledge in youth, they are tired of dogmas and religion shoved down their throat.

 

[yasir]

Yet some of the great scientists of yesteryear were also Islamic jurists.

Infact there are currently scientists more talented and knowledgeable than we'll ever be, who also happen to be religious, what gives?

In past, societies were neither mature or open enough to accept reason and evidence base Science. Scientist in past still has mostly those key principles, they were more liberal and reason oriented in there thought process specially in areas of interest.

You have to understand how science has evolved over time. When societies and individuals focus on evidence and reason base knowledge Science has thrive, when they revert to Faith(Belief without evidence), Science has struggled...Watch this presentation by Neil on this subject, he explains it...If you watch whole COSMOS series, that would be even better, its available on netflix for free...

 

[Markhor]

Some here have really mastered the art of the non-sequitur and false equivalency on here.

How many people have been butchered in the name of Islamist ideology in Pakistan compared to "atheism" or "liberalism" which represents a tiny fraction of Pakistani society ?

Please talk when there are atheist lynch mobs burning down homes or beating people to death on the basis of ill-found rumours and failure to conform to a rigid ideology.

Go look at the fate of atheists and liberals in Bangladesh and you'll get your answer as to why those who call for even basic human rights like dignity for women, respect for minorities and criticises fundamentalists feel they cannot openly express their views.

 

[CricFan2012]

lol, say that you're an atheist to your parents and they'll disown you, when will Pakistanis seriously move on from all of this?

 

[Adil_94]

i speak to a lot of Pakistani atheists on fb and twitter. yeah a lot of them are really paranoid. if u ever join fb groups discussing religion with them its always closed or secret. As long as people hold dogmatic beliefs that they deem above scrutiny then atheists agnostics and critics of religion will always have to be invisible in Pakistan. When people talk about the golden age of Muslims they often forget that this golden age had many thinkers who would be deemed heretical by todays standards. Al Razi Ibn Sina Ibn Rushd Al Ma'ari just to name a few. Where rationalism the use of logic and reason was commonplace as soon as that finished and the muslim world fell into dogma and closed societies it marked the beginning of a long intellectual decline. If you believe your religion are truly from God and true then surely you'd have no issue defending those ideas from criticisms but people would rather just shout blasphemy and shut you down or threaten you with death. Even if u disagree wholeheartedly with someones conclusions they have the right to voice that opinion. But forget atheists even someone like Ghamidi who as a scholar was deemed too deviant had to flee from the orthodox mullahs and their supporters.

Hamza Ali Abbasi who isnt atheist by any means had his show taken off the air simply for questioning the position of Ahmadis by the state.

This authoritarian mentality doesnt help anyone.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You call it fashion, I call it a wave of enlightenment spreading across the world. In either case we can agree that Islam is definitely out of fashion.

)

How many Muslims are there in the world and how many atheists?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Most atheists are just attention seekers. If you don't believe in God, don't spend time talking about it. Just live your life and nobody will care.

 

[Rafa]

Most atheists are just attention seekers. If you don't believe in God, don't spend time talking about it. Just live your life and nobody will care.

But they claim to be discriminated against all the time during their daily lives and constantly live under the fear of being lynched, hence have to vent up their frustrations online in anonymity.

 

[KingKhanWC]

But they claim to be discriminated against all the time during their daily lives and constantly live under the fear of being lynched, hence have to vent up their frustrations online in anonymity.

Which is why I said attention seekers. There are millions of Muslims living in Muslim countries who dont pray, don't fast, dont believe in God but life goes on. It's when people abandon religion(which is their right) and then start to spend their lives criticising it and putting it down sometimes in derogatory fashion, then their own attention leads to conflict with those who are sensitive.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] if certain countries didnt have the death penalty for atheism or imprisonment for atheism then you wouldnt get as many attention seeking atheists as you say.

luckily when u live in a western country you can be an atheist openly and most people wont say anything unless u are from a conservative religious family. But those in a country like Pakistan face violence abuse death threats being disowned. If someone was outed as an atheist in Pakistan or Saudi the chances of them being lynched is quite high. Look at Mashal Khan.

Those who live in countries where religion does affect peoples lives where it does infringe on human rights and civil liberties cant just afford to live their lives and get on with it or just be quiet about it . If they dress in a wrong way specifically women. if they talk in a wrong way or express "heretical" ideas they put themselves at risk of violence.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Which is why I said attention seekers. There are millions of Muslims living in Muslim countries who dont pray, don't fast, dont believe in God but life goes on. It's when people abandon religion(which is their right) and then start to spend their lives criticising it and putting it down sometimes in derogatory fashion, then their own attention leads to conflict with those who are sensitive.

Atheists talking against religion is attention seeking. Muslims talking openly about Islam is not? Hypocrisy.

If only Muslims would stick to just being annoying and talking about religion, it would be still be fine. Unfortunately, the attention seeking has taken a turn towards intolerance, murder and violence. No place for that in modern society I'm afraid...