Pakistan: A slice of China in Islamabad

[Adil_94]

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fe...an-slice-china-islamabad-170830081303813.html.

With the number of Chinese in Pakistan expected to grow rapidly in the next few years. Could this cause some friction between the expat Chinese communities and Pakistanis. Especially with things like the stocking of Pork in the Chinese shops.

Or do u think this is a good thing in the long run for Pakistan opening it up to a different culture.

 

[DW44]

Can't say if it will cause friction at a social level but in professional circles, there already is some. The Chinese have only recently started coming here with their firms but there's one sector (telecommunications, especially hardware) where they are firmly established and have been so for years. Their conduct so far provides a reasonable indication of how the Chinese will act as their firms come to dominate other sectors of our economy. In the telecom sector, Huawei and ZTE, two Chinese firms, have a near absolute monopoly on carrier equipment (all five telcos use either Huawei or ZTE equipment - their competitors, Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel have been largely driven out).

Both Chinese firms are widely resented for many reasons, including but not limited to causing serious wage depression (Nokia e.g. would often pay two to three times what Huawei does and up to four times what ZTE does for similar positions). This has had ripple effects and wages for employees of subcontractor firms have also gone down or stagnated depending on the specific company. The second major issue is the whole "our Chinese overlords" business, which is very much a thing in this sector. I can't speak to ZTE but in Huawei, nearly 60-65% of all employees, at least in their HQ in Islamabad, are Chinese including pretty much all top and middle management. I have worked in that sector for a few years and I don't think you'll find and early on I was surprised at how anti China everyone working in our field was since it was my first serious job and I always thought Pakistanis were very pro China. Over the years I realized that most people working in the telecom sector had similar views. It's no coincidence that it's also the only sector where the Chinese are already established in Pakistan.

As Chinese firms establish themselves in other sectors, I for one expect to see a similar shift in attitudes towards them from people working in those sectors.

 

[Rayyman]

Chinese societal culture is not too different than Pakistan's.

 

[hafeezrocks]

This is disgusting, Pakistan shouldn't compromise on their cultural and culinary practices.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is disgusting, Pakistan shouldn't compromise on their cultural and culinary practices.

Chinese in Pakistan is good for Pakistan. Why cant they have stores to cater for their needs?

 

[shaz619]

I think it's great, everyone loves a Chinese

 

[Nostalgic]

Can't say if it will cause friction at a social level but in professional circles, there already is some. The Chinese have only recently started coming here with their firms but there's one sector (telecommunications, especially hardware) where they are firmly established and have been so for years. Their conduct so far provides a reasonable indication of how the Chinese will act as their firms come to dominate other sectors of our economy. In the telecom sector, Huawei and ZTE, two Chinese firms, have a near absolute monopoly on carrier equipment (all five telcos use either Huawei or ZTE equipment - their competitors, Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel have been largely driven out).

Both Chinese firms are widely resented for many reasons, including but not limited to causing serious wage depression (Nokia e.g. would often pay two to three times what Huawei does and up to four times what ZTE does for similar positions). This has had ripple effects and wages for employees of subcontractor firms have also gone down or stagnated depending on the specific company. The second major issue is the whole "our Chinese overlords" business, which is very much a thing in this sector. I can't speak to ZTE but in Huawei, nearly 60-65% of all employees, at least in their HQ in Islamabad, are Chinese including pretty much all top and middle management. I have worked in that sector for a few years and I don't think you'll find and early on I was surprised at how anti China everyone working in our field was since it was my first serious job and I always thought Pakistanis were very pro China. Over the years I realized that most people working in the telecom sector had similar views. It's no coincidence that it's also the only sector where the Chinese are already established in Pakistan.

As Chinese firms establish themselves in other sectors, I for one expect to see a similar shift in attitudes towards them from people working in those sectors.

I've heard similar grumblings from classmates who work in Islamabad in the telecom sector. They all resent the Chinese. They say with Nokia/Ericsson etc there was a greater deal of fairness, both in promotions etc but also more importantly in terms of transparency and being professional in terms of their dealings. Friends who are on the government side of negotiating with the Chinese say that the Chinese are very likely to not honor written agreements, reneging on them as they see fit.

 

[Yossarian]

..... In the telecom sector, Huawei and ZTE, two Chinese firms, have a near absolute monopoly on carrier equipment (all five telcos use either Huawei or ZTE equipment - their competitors, Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel have been largely driven out).

So you're blaming the Chinese companies Huawei and ZTE for providing telecoms equipment at cheaper cost than the rip off prices charged
by Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel?

And you're blaming the Pakistani telecoms for choosing to pay lower prices to Huawei and ZTE as compared to buying from Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel?

Both Chinese firms are widely resented for many reasons, including but not limited to causing serious wage depression (Nokia e.g. would often pay two to three times what Huawei does and up to four times what ZTE does for similar positions). This has had ripple effects and wages for employees of subcontractor firms have also gone down or stagnated depending on the specific company. .....

So basically it's the employees of subcontractor firms that are complaining, as opposed to the consumer who's getting cheaper prices because the competing telecoms choose to buy their equipment from the supplier that gives them the best deal?

It's called market forces and competition leading to lower prices in case you don't know.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

In the grand scheme of things the numbers don't appear outrageously high so I can't see what the problems are going to be. It's not as if they are going to get the locals hooked on pork or Chinese wine.

The 43 projects that directly fall under the CPEC banner have seen a tripling of the number of Chinese nationals resident in Pakistan to more than 30,000, according to the Chinese embassy in Islamabad. In addition, Reuters reported, that more than 71,000 Chinese nationals visited on short-term visas last year.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fe...an-slice-china-islamabad-170830081303813.html

 

[DW44]

So you're blaming the Chinese companies Huawei and ZTE for providing telecoms equipment at cheaper cost than the rip off prices charged
by Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel?

And you're blaming the Pakistani telecoms for choosing to pay lower prices to Huawei and ZTE as compared to buying from Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel?

I'm blaming Pakistani authorities for allowing them to get away with hiring practices that they would never be able to get away with in any respectable country. 60% or more Chinese employees is ridiculous, as is the excuse they usually give to justify it that there's a shortage of skilled personnel, something that is patently false considering there are literally thousands of skilled personnel from Nokia etc available since the western firms hired locals even for managerial positions.

So basically it's the employees of , subcontractor firms that are complaining, as opposed to the consumer who's[ getting cheaper prices because the competing telecoms choose to buy their equipment from the supplier that gives them the best deal?

It's called market forces and competition leading to lower prices in case you don't know.

The people who are grumbling the most are employees of their clients, not subcontractors since the Chinese firms, as [MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] mentioned, come with a lot of baggage including but not limited to substandard equipment (particularly true in ZTE's case), complete lack of transparency (again, particularly true in ZTE's case since it's owned by the Chinese state while Huawei is owned by an ex PLA General), inefficiency (slower rollout times, higher operational costs, especially for remote sites due to more maintenance) and corruption - Telenor Pakistan's CTO, a Hungarian citizen, had been under investigation in Malaysia and Hungary for accepting bribes from ZTE and as soon as he lands in Pakistan, lo and behold, Telenor awards ZTE a contract for upgrading their entire network , highly unusual since Pakistani telcos usually hedge their bets and go with more than one vendor.

Now that that's out of the way, spare me the lecture on market forces. Pakistan is a developing country and no developing country can afford to leave things to market forces unless it wants to stay developing in perpetuity. It's rich when Chinese (and to a lesser extent, Japanese and Korean) firms and officials preach free market economics when it's about Chinese firms abroad but that all goes poof when it's the other way round. China is one of the most protectionist economies in the world, much like Korea was in the 70s and 80s or Japan from the 50s through to the 70s, or any developed country (apart from Hong Kong and the Netherlands) when it was still developing. China's industrialization is a textbook example of state led development today. Remind me the last time leaving things to market forces worked out well for a developing country in the long run.

 

[R0H1T]

I'm blaming Pakistani authorities for allowing them to get away with hiring practices that they would never be able to get away with in any respectable country. 60% or more Chinese employees is ridiculous, as is the excuse they usually give to justify it that there's a shortage of skilled personnel, something that is patently false considering there are literally thousands of skilled personnel from Nokia etc available since the western firms hired locals even for managerial positions.




The people who are grumbling the most are employees of their clients, not subcontractors since the Chinese firms, as [MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] mentioned, come with a lot of baggage including but not limited to substandard equipment (particularly true in ZTE's case), complete lack of transparency (again, particularly true in ZTE's case since it's owned by the Chinese state while Huawei is owned by an ex PLA General), inefficiency (slower rollout times, higher operational costs, especially for remote sites due to more maintenance) and corruption - Telenor Pakistan's CTO, a Hungarian citizen, had been under investigation in Malaysia and Hungary for accepting bribes from ZTE and as soon as he lands in Pakistan, lo and behold, Telenor awards ZTE a contract for upgrading their entire network , highly unusual since Pakistani telcos usually hedge their bets and go with more than one vendor.

Now that that's out of the way, spare me the lecture on market forces. Pakistan is a developing country and no developing country can afford to leave things to market forces unless it wants to stay developing in perpetuity. It's rich when Chinese (and to a lesser extent, Japanese and Korean) firms and officials preach free market economics when it's about Chinese firms abroad but that all goes poof when it's the other way round. China is one of the most protectionist economies in the world, much like Korea was in the 70s and 80s or Japan from the 50s through to the 70s, or any developed country (apart from Hong Kong and the Netherlands) when it was still developing. China's industrialization is a textbook example of state led development today. Remind me the last time leaving things to market forces worked out well for a developing country in the long run.

You just have to look at UK & how they've become a Chinese puppet working actively against the interests of EU & even their own, steel makers for instance. Needless to say Brexit hasn;t worked quite as well as they;d hoped.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...blocking-eu-attempts-regulate-chinese-dumping

Free market works only when it's free & fair, the Chinese obviously don;t play fair & are in fact proud of it!
http://telecom.economictimes.indiat...estions-cbi-for-not-completing-probe/60311926

 

[Yossarian]

You just have to look at UK & how they've become a Chinese puppet working actively against the interests of EU & even their own, steel makers for instance. Needless to say Brexit hasn;t worked quite as well as they;d hoped.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...blocking-eu-attempts-regulate-chinese-dumping

It's a bit rich blaming the Chinese for the failings of the British Steel industry owned and operated by the Indians.

Free market works only when it's free & fair, the Chinese obviously don;t play fair & are in fact proud of it!
http://telecom.economictimes.indiat...estions-cbi-for-not-completing-probe/60311926

The Indians are unhappy with the competition from the Chinese. And yet they have no problems buying, owning and managing the UK steel industry and running it to the ground.

 

[PakLFC]

Pork should be made available for those who want it. We don't want to force ourselves in to other peoples fridges like another certain country. Give the Chinese halal options as well.

 

[R0H1T]

It's a bit rich blaming the Chinese for the failings of the British Steel industry owned and operated by the Indians.

The Indians are unhappy with the competition from the Chinese. And yet they have no problems buying, owning and managing the UK steel industry and running it to the ground.

British steel industry was failing way before Corus' buyout, conveniently you forget that all around the world nations are imposing anti dumping duties on Chinese Steel, so you know it's not China;s fault, the whole wide world are just bad hombres.

There is no competition in the telecom hardware sector because we don;t make any. In others, as I said previously, the Chinese are doing a wholesale job of global deflation. Their whole economy is based on making tons of stuff, cheaply. Now with more automation & their price competitiveness eroding, the threshold for many of these firms, to make profits is higher i.e. they need to make even more stuff to stay in the black.

Just for the record overproduction isn;t a good thing, not for them & neither for the global economy, but the way things are structured it's impossible to go back to the way things were.

 

[Suleiman]

Pakistanis go to other countries like England, US, Canada, UAE bringing their own culture and a lot of the times having entire neighborhoods which they populate as well as cities where they are the majority not to mention few become too extreme and demand natives of said countries live according to their own values, so it will be interesting to see how this pans out.

 

[troodon]

If Chinese are settling in Pakistan, in future we might see a Chinese Pak guy in their cricket team.

 

[troodon]

One thing is certain. With so much Chinese presence in Pak, Pakistan is pretty much safe from Any form of Indian aggression.

Downside to all this is what posters like DW44, Adil_94 have mentioned.

 

[Napa]

Anybody who thinks they are going to get rich doing business with the Chinese are going to be sorely disappointed. The only people who have made money doing business with China are Western multinationals, by first destroying their workers' lives by moving manufacturing to China, and next by selling a ton of over-priced brand name luxury goods in China.

It shouldn't be hard to understand how Chinese business will pan out in places like Pakistan and Africa. The Chinese understand that they have the economic power in these relationships, and they are going to squeeze you dry. They are not the forgiving sort.

 

[Yossarian]

Anybody who thinks they are going to get rich doing business with the Chinese are going to be sorely disappointed. The only people who have made money doing business with China are Western multinationals, by first destroying their workers' lives by moving manufacturing to China, and next by selling a ton of over-priced brand name luxury goods in China.

It shouldn't be hard to understand how Chinese business will pan out in places like Pakistan and Africa. The Chinese understand that they have the economic power in these relationships, and they are going to squeeze you dry. They are not the forgiving sort.

The Chinese wish to make CPEC a permanent land based artery/gateway/transit route from China to the Indian Ocean.

For this need they need a stable Pakistan, which means an economically successful Pakistan since an economically unsuccessful Pakistan will lead to instability and possible breakup.

If CPEC is a success, then over time it will become a major component and an integral part of China's economy. This factor sets CPEC apart from any other investments China is making in Africa or elsewhere.

But I guess this is too difficult to comprehend for Indians who are concerned about Pakistan's wellbeing, or for Pakistanis who appear to harbour racist attititudes towards the Chinese and can't seem to understand that long term, if CPEC turns out to be a success and becomes a key artery for Chinese trade with the rest of the world, both Pakistan and China will have mutual interest in seeing the other being stable and successful.

 

[Yossarian]

One thing is certain. With so much Chinese presence in Pak, Pakistan is pretty much safe from Any form of Indian aggression.

Agree. See my post above.

Downside to all this is what posters like DW44, Adil_94 have mentioned.

Perhaps they need to understand the paragraph in bold from that previous post.

 

[Varun]

I studied in a South Indian university which saw oodles of Chinese guys - and they're impossible to mingle with. They make no attempt to learn English, don't enjoy Indian food and don't make any friends outside their circle either.

I can't imagine it to be too different in Pakistan.

 

[R0H1T]

I studied in a South Indian university which saw oodles of Chinese guys - and they're impossible to mingle with. They make no attempt to learn English, don't enjoy Indian food and don't make any friends outside their circle either.

I can't imagine it to be too different in Pakistan.

No surprise, it's their way or the highway, no exceptions!

 

[Varun]

No surprise, it's their way or the highway, no exceptions!

But their way isn't particularly enterprising. Bar the odd individual here or there, they weren't particularly good at academics or extracurricular activities or soft skills. I understand I only caught a limited sample set, but the fact that few of them were able to land jobs after university was telling.

 

[R0H1T]

But their way isn't particularly enterprising. Bar the odd individual here or there, they weren't particularly good at academics or extracurricular activities or soft skills. I understand I only caught a limited sample set, but the fact that few of them were able to land jobs after university was telling.

Well my cousin also had a similar experience, he studies at VIT. I'd say the success of the last few years has got to their head, the Chinese commentary in the Doklam issue, them wrecking Japanese manufacturers 2/3 years back, banning a Kpop singer, so on & so forth.

The public seems to be eating the made up stories of middle kingdom en masse, that's what quasi dictatorships are all about.

 

[Napa]

The Chinese wish to make CPEC a permanent land based artery/gateway/transit route from China to the Indian Ocean.

This is the 21st and not the 18th century. Transit routes are of limited value. You can ship anything you want from one part of the world to another using ships at a low cost.

China currently holds a lot of US debt that it wants to convert to physical assets. Hence the CPEC and other investments. Though it may have an appearance of some grand scheme CPEC is simply Chinese capital trying to find an outlet.

For this need they need a stable Pakistan, which means an economically successful Pakistan since an economically unsuccessful Pakistan will lead to instability and possible breakup.

If you believe that other countries will come and save your country from instability, you are being naive. You have to fix your problems yourself.

If CPEC is a success, then over time it will become a major component and an integral part of China's economy. This factor sets CPEC apart from any other investments China is making in Africa or elsewhere.

You are fantasizing. There is nothing integral to being part of another economy by being a route to carry merchandise.

But I guess this is too difficult to comprehend for Indians who are concerned about Pakistan's wellbeing, or for Pakistanis who appear to harbour racist attititudes towards the Chinese and can't seem to understand that long term, if CPEC turns out to be a success and becomes a key artery for Chinese trade with the rest of the world, both Pakistan and China will have mutual interest in seeing the other being stable and successful.

This is the 21st century, there are no "key arteries" in the world which leads to economic progress, there are no such countries.

Also there is the little issue of Chinese suppression of Islam:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...fasting-in-mainly-muslim-region-a7068481.html

 

[JoniInsafian]

Indians are so concernd with Pakistan's economic well-being when it comes to CPEC

What would we do without such well-intention neighbours....

 

[Yossarian]

This is the 21st and not the 18th century. Transit routes are of limited value. You can ship anything you want from one part of the world to another using ships at a low cost.

Not worth reading from here on. I suggest you look at a map, and look at the shipping routes through the South China Sea, past the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore, especially the choke points of the Straight of Malacca, and then compare that to a land route from mainland China to the port of Gwadar, and by sea from there onwards to the Gulf, East Africa or to Europe via the Suez canal.

Sounds as if you have no inkling as to the savings in shipping times, shipping costs, and most importantly, having an alternate direct route missing out the aforementioned potential choke points. In a world of low inventory stocks (and associated reduction in warehousing and inventory costs), along with just-in-time production methods, shipping times are key. Even savings of a day or so in shipping times are worth their weight in gold. It's called logistics. If you had any knowledge in this regard, you wouldn't be making the comment you've made.
,

 

[PTI]

Can't say if it will cause friction at a social level but in professional circles, there already is some. The Chinese have only recently started coming here with their firms but there's one sector (telecommunications, especially hardware) where they are firmly established and have been so for years. Their conduct so far provides a reasonable indication of how the Chinese will act as their firms come to dominate other sectors of our economy. In the telecom sector, Huawei and ZTE, two Chinese firms, have a near absolute monopoly on carrier equipment (all five telcos use either Huawei or ZTE equipment - their competitors, Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel have been largely driven out).

Both Chinese firms are widely resented for many reasons, including but not limited to causing serious wage depression (Nokia e.g. would often pay two to three times what Huawei does and up to four times what ZTE does for similar positions). This has had ripple effects and wages for employees of subcontractor firms have also gone down or stagnated depending on the specific company. The second major issue is the whole "our Chinese overlords" business, which is very much a thing in this sector. I can't speak to ZTE but in Huawei, nearly 60-65% of all employees, at least in their HQ in Islamabad, are Chinese including pretty much all top and middle management. I have worked in that sector for a few years and I don't think you'll find and early on I was surprised at how anti China everyone working in our field was since it was my first serious job and I always thought Pakistanis were very pro China. Over the years I realized that most people working in the telecom sector had similar views. It's no coincidence that it's also the only sector where the Chinese are already established in Pakistan.

As Chinese firms establish themselves in other sectors, I for one expect to see a similar shift in attitudes towards them from people working in those sectors.

Brother are you telecom engineer?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Quite odd to see the same posters who have spent eons on this site lambasting the state of business and industry in Pakistan, only now to be moaning even harder when the Chinese are taking over. I always assumed with the perception of Pakistan as a failed state any outsourcing of projects to a more competent and successful nation would be welcome. That too a secular nation which wouldn't have any truck with the mullah culture which is often blamed for Pakistan's failings.

 

[DW44]

Brother are you telecom engineer?

Electrical Engineer but worked in the telecom sector for three years.

 

[DW44]

You just have to look at UK & how they've become a Chinese puppet working actively against the interests of EU & even their own, steel makers for instance. Needless to say Brexit hasn;t worked quite as well as they;d hoped.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...blocking-eu-attempts-regulate-chinese-dumping

Free market works only when it's free & fair, the Chinese obviously don;t play fair & are in fact proud of it!
http://telecom.economictimes.indiat...estions-cbi-for-not-completing-probe/60311926

They don't play fair because that's exactly what they should be doing. The onus is not on them to play fair, it's on the countries they do business with to make sure of that and even then only the developing ones. None of the developed countries played fair to get here, you simply can't do that. Britain literally colonized half the world to create markets for it's manufacturers. It's not their fault the host countries are more interested in easy short term money than their long term prospects. India and Pakistan's eye watering deficits with China are entirely their own fault. China's job is to secure their economic interests, which they did beautifully. It was India and Pakistan's job to secure theirs, something they failed at miserably, Pakistan much more so than even India which is no mean feat.

 

[Napa]

Not worth reading from here on. I suggest you look at a map, and look at the shipping routes through the South China Sea, past the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore, especially the choke points of the Straight of Malacca, and then compare that to a land route from mainland China to the port of Gwadar, and by sea from there onwards to the Gulf, East Africa or to Europe via the Suez canal.

Sounds as if you have no inkling as to the savings in shipping times, shipping costs, and most importantly, having an alternate direct route missing out the aforementioned potential choke points. In a world of low inventory stocks (and associated reduction in warehousing and inventory costs), along with just-in-time production methods, shipping times are key. Even savings of a day or so in shipping times are worth their weight in gold. It's called logistics. If you had any knowledge in this regard, you wouldn't be making the comment you've made.
,

JIT is important for suppliers/ancillaries in a production process. The trade between China and Europe is mostly finished goods.

 

[R0H1T]

They don't play fair because that's exactly what they should be doing. The onus is not on them to play fair, it's on the countries they do business with to make sure of that and even then only the developing ones. None of the developed countries played fair to get here, you simply can't do that. Britain literally colonized half the world to create markets for it's manufacturers. It's not their fault the host countries are more interested in easy short term money than their long term prospects. India and Pakistan's eye watering deficits with China are entirely their own fault. China's job is to secure their economic interests, which they did beautifully. It was India and Pakistan's job to secure theirs, something they failed at miserably, Pakistan much more so than even India which is no mean feat.

I've commented on this previously, no it's not entirely our fault & no not all money ends up in China.

The trade deficit is mainly on account of electronic goods, the telecom manufacturers like Huawei or ZTE revenues (for network equipment) dwarf in comparison to the other high(er) end goods India imports.

The biggest components is x86 & mobile phones, followed by consumer durables. In x86 China just assembles Intel, AMD, Nvidia products through Hon hai or Pegatron. The actual profit, vast majority, ends up in the US or Taiwan.

For mobile phones, depending on who you talk to, the Chinese have an iron grip on South Asian market. Though 90% of profits again end up with Apple or Samsung, Huawei has only recently emerged as a highly profitable venture in this field. Though again Hon hai & Pegatron assemble a vast majority of them.

Consumer durables like TV, refrigerator, washing machine et al are also manufactured in India, though the latest tech comes from the likes of Samsung, LG, Haeir etc. We can eaisly replace Chinese goods, but the costs might go higher.

Then as I pointed out earlier, heavy engineering & other high tech (electrical) equipment, we have Germany or domestic suppliers to fulfill all of that demand. China is preferred only when it's really cheap &/or they're bribing our officials.

Automobiles, we;re way ahead of anything made by China i.e. Chinese homegrown firms. The same goes for pharma or IT/services industry.

In that sense if we play our cards well, we won;t be as dependent on China in the future as we are now. Make in India is a step in that direction but we need more Indian firms manufacturing stuff for India & then exports.

 

[Yossarian]

JIT is important for suppliers/ancillaries in a production process. The trade between China and Europe is mostly finished goods.

Inventory and warehousing costs of wholesalers and retailers still matters. And that means reduced inventory at the wholesaler as well as at the retailer. Combine that with better sales forecasting, modern stocks and warehousing systems to automate replenishment based upon sell through and minimum stock levels, and you end up with more frequent replenishment orders with shorter lead times between placing an order and receiving delivery.

So no, JIT is not simply important for the production process, but for the whole of the supply chain, from component supplier, to production, to warehousing, to wholesale, to retail and eventually retail sales to the end consumer. Hence shortening the shipping routes, and thus reducing the shipping transit times does matter.

 

[Yossarian]

Quite odd to see the same posters who have spent eons on this site lambasting the state of business and industry in Pakistan, only now to be moaning even harder when the Chinese are taking over. I always assumed with the perception of Pakistan as a failed state any outsourcing of projects to a more competent and successful nation would be welcome. That too a secular nation which wouldn't have any truck with the mullah culture which is often blamed for Pakistan's failings.

Perhaps this explains it.

Both Chinese firms are widely resented for many reasons, including but not limited to causing serious wage depression (Nokia e.g. would often pay two to three times what Huawei does and up to four times what ZTE does for similar positions). This has had ripple effects and wages for employees of subcontractor firms have also gone down or stagnated depending on the specific company. The second major issue is the whole "our Chinese overlords" business, which is very much a thing in this sector. I can't speak to ZTE but in Huawei, nearly 60-65% of all employees, at least in their HQ in Islamabad, are Chinese including pretty much all top and middle management. I have worked in that sector for a few years and I don't think you'll find and early on I was surprised at how anti China everyone working in our field was since it was my first serious job and I always thought Pakistanis were very pro China. Over the years I realized that most people working in the telecom sector had similar views. It's no coincidence that it's also the only sector where the Chinese are already established in Pakistan..

Brother are you telecom engineer?

Electrical Engineer but worked in the telecom sector for three years.

 

[DW44]

Perhaps this explains it.

It doesn't. Wages at client firms are not impacted by vendors' policies. The subcontractors bear the brunt of that.

 

[Yossarian]

It doesn't. Wages at client firms are not impacted by vendors' policies. The subcontractors bear the brunt of that.

Only if a competitor subcontractor is also willing to provide a similar level of service but at lower cost. Then it's a case of whichever subcontractor provides the best price/performance/quality deal getting the contract. "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". It's called market forces.

 

[DW44]

Only if a competitor subcontractor is also willing to provide a similar level of service but at lower cost. Then it's a case of whichever subcontractor provides the best price/performance/quality deal getting the contract. "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". It's called market forces.

Or whichever subcontractor can offer the highest bribe. One would think you lot would know by now that things don't quite work in Pakistan the way they do in the UK. Either way, it's irrelevant here since you're implying that I'm bitter because I experienced wage cuts when I've told you already that those cuts don't affect the client firms (i.e. the telcos), only the vendors' subcontractors. Anyhow, only an idiot would leave things to market forces given how thoroughly that particular school of thought has been discredited by now. Unfortunately, idiot is the default setting for this country.

 

[Yossarian]

Or whichever subcontractor can offer the highest bribe. One would think you lot would know by now that things don't quite work in Pakistan the way they do in the UK. Either way, it's irrelevant here since you're implying that I'm bitter because I experienced wage cuts when I've told you already that those cuts don't affect the client firms (i.e. the telcos), only the vendors' subcontractors. Anyhow, only an idiot would leave things to market forces given how thoroughly that particular school of thought has been discredited by now. Unfortunately, idiot is the default setting for this country.

Ah, the Pakistani syndrome. It's everyone else's fault. And that includes everyone else in one's own country.

 

[DW44]

Ah, the Pakistani syndrome. It's everyone else's fault. And that includes everyone else in one's own country.

Just so we're clear, what exactly is someone else's fault?

 

[Yossarian]

Just so we're clear, what exactly is someone else's fault?

Pakistanis generally blaming everyone else, especially other Pakistanis as long as they're not friends or relatives, for everything from incompetence to bribery and corruption, and everything in between. And yet no one seems to admit that they too are part of the same society, that they too are part of the same culture of bribery and corruption (even if only at the level of, for example, bribing a traffic cop to look the other way, or a govt. clerk to circumvent channels ...). And when they're not blaming each other, it must be due to the activities of the foreigner, whether Indian, American, and now the Chinese.

 

[Syed1]

Quite odd to see the same posters who have spent eons on this site lambasting the state of business and industry in Pakistan, only now to be moaning even harder when the Chinese are taking over. I always assumed with the perception of Pakistan as a failed state any outsourcing of projects to a more competent and successful nation would be welcome. That too a secular nation which wouldn't have any truck with the mullah culture which is often blamed for Pakistan's failings.

Good point. The basic mentality is that everything in Pakistan has to be wrong and it has to be taken in a negative light. If China wasn't investing these same people will be deriding the state of Pakistan that nobody is investing. If army was establishing industry, these people will be like this is not the army's business. If the government was investing in industry these people would be like it is not the business of the state to invest in industry.


Basically "oppose everything" mentality.

 

[Syed1]

Can't say if it will cause friction at a social level but in professional circles, there already is some. The Chinese have only recently started coming here with their firms but there's one sector (telecommunications, especially hardware) where they are firmly established and have been so for years. Their conduct so far provides a reasonable indication of how the Chinese will act as their firms come to dominate other sectors of our economy. In the telecom sector, Huawei and ZTE, two Chinese firms, have a near absolute monopoly on carrier equipment (all five telcos use either Huawei or ZTE equipment - their competitors, Nokia, Ericsson and Alcatel have been largely driven out).

Both Chinese firms are widely resented for many reasons, including but not limited to causing serious wage depression (Nokia e.g. would often pay two to three times what Huawei does and up to four times what ZTE does for similar positions). This has had ripple effects and wages for employees of subcontractor firms have also gone down or stagnated depending on the specific company. The second major issue is the whole "our Chinese overlords" business, which is very much a thing in this sector. I can't speak to ZTE but in Huawei, nearly 60-65% of all employees, at least in their HQ in Islamabad, are Chinese including pretty much all top and middle management. I have worked in that sector for a few years and I don't think you'll find and early on I was surprised at how anti China everyone working in our field was since it was my first serious job and I always thought Pakistanis were very pro China. Over the years I realized that most people working in the telecom sector had similar views. It's no coincidence that it's also the only sector where the Chinese are already established in Pakistan.

As Chinese firms establish themselves in other sectors, I for one expect to see a similar shift in attitudes towards them from people working in those sectors.

I recently interviewed for Huawei Canada and secured a job in their Technology Research Center in Canada. I then refused the offer because of two reason.

1. It was a contract job and not a full-time permanent position
2. Every single review about Huawei Canada on Glassdoor said that the company was a bad place to work, they brought over their managers from China, or elevated people of Chinese origin to managerial position. It was basically a China-run company operating in Canada.



So what you saw at Huawei isn't Huawei's attitude towards Pakistanis, it is just the standard operating procedure of that company. (Not saying it is good)

 

[member250]

Good point. The basic mentality is that everything in Pakistan has to be wrong and it has to be taken in a negative light. If China wasn't investing these same people will be deriding the state of Pakistan that nobody is investing. If army was establishing industry, these people will be like this is not the army's business. If the government was investing in industry these people would be like it is not the business of the state to invest in industry.


Basically "oppose everything" mentality.

No one is investing in Pakistan apart from China and we not happy with them either. Alternative is living like now with poor infrastructure and chronic energy shortages which will keep getting worse because population is growing at ridiculous rate for poor country like Pakistan. We couldn't learn anything from our cousins in east.

We all wish environment would be more competitive in Pakistan for foreign investors but that's not the case anymore because of terrorism and political instability.

Time to be little less racists to Chinese who have moved in to Pakistan for work as I'm sure many people in Pakistan wouldn't have problem with **** saab. Considering how white tourists are treated in Pakistan looking at their videos when they visit north western regions of Pakistan. Nothing wrong if Chinese are bringing their own culture, food with them.

I personally think there will not be any problem over pork, alcohol or culture.

 

[Suleiman]

I recently interviewed for Huawei Canada and secured a job in their Technology Research Center in Canada. I then refused the offer because of two reason.

1. It was a contract job and not a full-time permanent position
2. Every single review about Huawei Canada on Glassdoor said that the company was a bad place to work, they brought over their managers from China, or elevated people of Chinese origin to managerial position. It was basically a China-run company operating in Canada.



So what you saw at Huawei isn't Huawei's attitude towards Pakistanis, it is just the standard operating procedure of that company. (Not saying it is good)

yaar unko mera bata deta.

 

[Napa]

I recently interviewed for Huawei Canada and secured a job in their Technology Research Center in Canada. I then refused the offer because of two reason.

1. It was a contract job and not a full-time permanent position
2. Every single review about Huawei Canada on Glassdoor said that the company was a bad place to work, they brought over their managers from China, or elevated people of Chinese origin to managerial position. It was basically a China-run company operating in Canada.



So what you saw at Huawei isn't Huawei's attitude towards Pakistanis, it is just the standard operating procedure of that company. (Not saying it is good)

As I said in my earlier post "Anybody who thinks they are going to get rich doing business with the Chinese are going to be sorely disappointed... they are going to squeeze you dry. They are not the forgiving sort."

The Chinese model of business is to cut labor costs to the minimum. It is straight up a race to the lowest production cost. If you associated with it in any form other than being the owner of the firm, good luck to you!

 

[IMMY69]

As I said in my earlier post "Anybody who thinks they are going to get rich doing business with the Chinese are going to be sorely disappointed... they are going to squeeze you dry. They are not the forgiving sort."

The Chinese model of business is to cut labor costs to the minimum. It is straight up a race to the lowest production cost. If you associated with it in any form other than being the owner of the firm, good luck to you!

The entire Indian iron ore boom was solely due to China.

 

[DW44]

I recently interviewed for Huawei Canada and secured a job in their Technology Research Center in Canada. I then refused the offer because of two reason.

1. It was a contract job and not a full-time permanent position
2. Every single review about Huawei Canada on Glassdoor said that the company was a bad place to work, they brought over their managers from China, or elevated people of Chinese origin to managerial position. It was basically a China-run company operating in Canada.



So what you saw at Huawei isn't Huawei's attitude towards Pakistanis, it is just the standard operating procedure of that company. (Not saying it is good)

Like I've said, my issue is with them bringing Chinese staff over for regular jobs, not just top management and this is something Chinese companies are doing in other sectors too now. It is unacceptable that two thirds of their staff (not just top management but regular engineers, accountants and the like) are Chinese. The whole point of foreign investment is to create jobs and if they're not even doing that, because our government allows them to import Chinese personnel wholesale, the whole point of the investment is lost. This same trend is now repeating in the power sector.

 

[Yossarian]

I recently interviewed for Huawei Canada and secured a job in their Technology Research Center in Canada. I then refused the offer because of two reason.

1. It was a contract job and not a full-time permanent position
2. Every single review about Huawei Canada on Glassdoor said that the company was a bad place to work, they brought over their managers from China, or elevated people of Chinese origin to managerial position. It was basically a China-run company operating in Canada.



So what you saw at Huawei isn't Huawei's attitude towards Pakistanis, it is just the standard operating procedure of that company. (Not saying it is good)

What's wrong with that? My UK employer took me to Saudi to manage projects there. A few years later, my European employer transferred me to their US subsidiary on an open ended basis, in a managerial position (on an L1 visa) because they wanted 'a European' with experience of their European operations in charge of some key functions. I purchased a house and enrolled my children in a state school with the intention of staying there long term. Although just a few years later I opted to return back to Europe due to an interesting post becoming available and offered to me.

European companies take managers from their European operations to run their operations in other countries. The American companies do the same. So why not the Chinese doing similar?

 

[DW44]

What's wrong with that? My UK employer took me to Saudi to manage projects there. A few years later, my European employer transferred me to their US subsidiary on an open ended basis, in a managerial position (on an L1 visa) because they wanted 'a European' with experience of their European operations in charge of some key functions. I purchased a house and enrolled my children in a state school with the intention of staying there long term. Although just a few years later I opted to return back to Europe due to an interesting post becoming available and offered to me.

European companies take managers from their European operations to run their operations in other countries. The American companies do the same. So why not the Chinese doing similar?

Did your employer also send roughly two thirds of the people working for your company in Saudi and the US from Europe? Did the US government allow it?

 

[Yossarian]

Did your employer also send roughly two thirds of the people working for your company in Saudi and the US from Europe? Did the US government allow it?

Yes (ie the majority of managerial staff). Yes.

In the U.S. operation, I had European colleagues from the UK, France, Germany, Holland, Italy and Spain, plus a couple from Hong Kong and Singapore. Basically at least one or two each from the company's various subsidiaries around the world. By and large we were on L1 visa's (inter-company transfers for managers of foreign companies with specific knowledge of their employer's procedures and practices that could not be sourced from the open U.S. jobs market). All the senior managers, bar those roles that required specific knowledge about U.S. laws and regulations, such as Human Resources, Accounting and Customer Services, were non-Americans transferred from their non-US operations to the U.S. The non-managerial staff obviously were all Americans.

 

[DW44]

Yes (ie the majority of managerial staff). Yes.

In the U.S. operation, I had European colleagues from the UK, France, Germany, Holland, Italy and Spain, plus a couple from Hong Kong and Singapore. Basically at least one or two each from the company's various subsidiaries around the world. By and large we were on L1 visa's (inter-company transfers for managers of foreign companies with specific knowledge of their employer's procedures and practices that could not be sourced from the open U.S. jobs market). All the senior managers, bar those roles that required specific knowledge about U.S. laws and regulations, such as Human Resources, Accounting and Customer Services, were non-Americans transferred from their non-US operations to the U.S. The non-managerial staff obviously were all Americans.

I'm quite certain senior management does not make up greater than 60% of any organization's workforce. Most multinationals working in Pakistan import their senior management and no one has had issues with that. The reason Chinese companies engender resentment is that they don't just import top management, they import middle management and most of the grunt level workforce too. My dealings with Huawei are limited(we trialled their equipment, which is superior to ZTE's but had a corrupt CTO on ZTE's payroll) but in ZTE, who was our main vendor, we had to go through four to five layers of Chinese managers and administrators before we even saw a Pakistani.

 

[Yossarian]

I'm quite certain senior management does not make up greater than 60% of any organization's workforce. Most multinationals working in Pakistan import their senior management and no one has had issues with that. The reason Chinese companies engender resentment is that they don't just import top management, they import middle management and most of the grunt level workforce too. My dealings with Huawei are limited(we trialled their equipment, which is superior to ZTE's but had a corrupt CTO on ZTE's payroll) but in ZTE, who was our main vendor, we had to go through four to five layers of Chinese managers and administrators before we even saw a Pakistani.

Ultimately, whether Chinese or European, employers will not fork out more (in terms of salaries, benefits, which in the case of foreign employees also includes housing costs and regular flights home) than they need to, especially for the 'grunt level workforce as you call it'.

I doubt these Chinese companies import the cleaners, gardeners, cooks and other manual labourers from China. So I would guess that if they're importing other 'grunt workers' from China they must be costing more than had they been recruited from within Pakistan. (note above the factors when working out costs of importing workers, especially housing costs).

Conclusion: There must be a valid reason for doing so. Perhaps better skilled, better qualified, familiarity with procedures and practices ....?? The Chinese would not be spending more on their workforce than what was required. Usually those in non senior positions don't see the big picture.

 

[JoniInsafian]

Good point. The basic mentality is that everything in Pakistan has to be wrong and it has to be taken in a negative light. If China wasn't investing these same people will be deriding the state of Pakistan that nobody is investing. If army was establishing industry, these people will be like this is not the army's business. If the government was investing in industry these people would be like it is not the business of the state to invest in industry.


Basically "oppose everything" mentality.

When so many Indians are saying something is bad for Pakistan.... You know it's good for Pakistan

 

[Napa]

The entire Indian iron ore boom was solely due to China.

Being a supplier of a commodity is not the way to a good life. Yes, the Saudis etc. have got very rich supplying commodities but their day of reckoning will come.

 

[Napa]

What's wrong with that? My UK employer took me to Saudi to manage projects there.

Saudi Arabia is different. You will not find enough locals there qualified to do the work, unlike in Pakistan.

 

[DW44]

Ultimately, whether Chinese or European, employers will not fork out more (in terms of salaries, benefits, which in the case of foreign employees also includes housing costs and regular flights home) than they need to, especially for the 'grunt level workforce as you call it'.

I doubt these Chinese companies import the cleaners, gardeners, cooks and other manual labourers from China. So I would guess that if they're importing other 'grunt workers' from China they must be costing more than had they been recruited from within Pakistan. (note above the factors when working out costs of importing workers, especially housing costs).

Labor in Pakistan is substantially cheaper and, at least in this case, there's a glut of qualified professionals so the skill shortage excuse doesn't fly either. Chinese companies, unlike shareholder owned western corporations, can be and are influenced by the Chinese state and this particular issue has received enough coverage not just in Pakistan but elsewhere for it to have been established by now that using Chinese staff wherever possible is very much a Chinese government policy to keep employment levels high. Pakistan isn't the first country where this issue has created problems, it has been a contentious issue in virtually every African country where Chinese firms operate.

Cost has very little to do with it or otherwise they'd have hired locals in most countries since they almost exclusively do this in poor countries like Pakistan and Uganda where labor costs are significantly lower. Housing etc cost more for Chinese employees since the companies have to pay for them (I doubt the UK for instance would allow it - their government literally has British experts, paid for by Huawei, examine every piece of equipment Huawei ships to the UK for security purposes).

Conclusion: There must be a valid reason for doing so. Perhaps better skilled, better qualified, familiarity with procedures and practices ....?? The Chinese would not be spending more on their workforce than what was required. Usually those in non senior positions don't see the big picture.

The "valid" reason is that they can get away with it and their state, which enjoys considerably more influence over their corporations than western governments do over western corporations, encourages (read mandates) it. Pakistani authorities bend over backwards to accommodate the Chinese at the detriment of their own citizens. Skills don't factor into the equation since the western companies that the Chinese ones replaced hired Pakistanis almost exclusively except at the very top and they left behind thousands of qualified professionals. My former employer previously used Nokia equipment so I've worked with their Pakistani engineers and ZTE's Chinese ones. I'd take the Pakistani engineers any day of the week if I was on a hiring committee even if I had to pay a premium for it because someone trained to follow Nokia or Ericsson's organizational practices would be worth the premium over a Huawei trained grunt, much less a ZTE one.

 

[sshakir411]

As I said in my earlier post "Anybody who thinks they are going to get rich doing business with the Chinese are going to be sorely disappointed... they are going to squeeze you dry. They are not the forgiving sort."

The Chinese model of business is to cut labor costs to the minimum. It is straight up a race to the lowest production cost. If you associated with it in any form other than being the owner of the firm, good luck to you!

Pretty rich coming from an Indian..no offense..your country has chosen to invest billions in Afghanistan...do you guys seriously expect to make anything out of that deal? Or does that guarantee India a safety/alliance in the region? Think well before you answer because the same answer is why China and Pakistan are doing all this.

 

[Napa]

Pretty rich coming from an Indian..no offense..your country has chosen to invest billions in Afghanistan...do you guys seriously expect to make anything out of that deal? Or does that guarantee India a safety/alliance in the region? Think well before you answer because the same answer is why China and Pakistan are doing all this.

Do you really think that being like Afghanistan is where Pakistan wants to be? Think well before you answer...

Anyway, my point was about doing business with the Chinese. China still is a country with a massive supply of low cost acceptable quality labor. They are going to use that resource so any investment they make will be accompanied with lots of Chinese workers and few locally employed people.

 

[sshakir411]

Do you really think that being like Afghanistan is where Pakistan wants to be? Think well before you answer...

Anyway, my point was about doing business with the Chinese. China still is a country with a massive supply of low cost acceptable quality labor. They are going to use that resource so any investment they make will be accompanied with lots of Chinese workers and few locally employed people.

I'm not sure if you're serious...Afghanistan barley has a single city with a functioning airport, not sure how China investing in Pakistan equates it to being on the same level as Afghanistan...elaborate please.

Which country will refuse someone else building their infrastructure for them? The purpose of CPEC is to develop areas untouched by the Pakistani government. If it houses Chinese companies and their employees then so be it...still a better deal than investing billions in Afghanistan specially during a time when the ruling government has less than 50% control of the country.

 

[R0H1T]

Pretty rich coming from an Indian..no offense..your country has chosen to invest billions in Afghanistan...do you guys seriously expect to make anything out of that deal? Or does that guarantee India a safety/alliance in the region? Think well before you answer because the same answer is why China and Pakistan are doing all this.

Just so you know China has invested between 2-5x India;s outpouring in Afghanistan, of course as it is with the iron brother, they let the locals (plus the yanks) do all the dirty work & reap the rewards!

 

[sshakir411]

Just so you know China has invested between 2-5x India;s outpouring in Afghanistan, of course as it is with the iron brother, they let the locals (plus the yanks) do all the dirty work & reap the rewards!

China has invested billions in Africa as well and continues to do all the work there. The only difference between China and India's investment is that China is doing the same thing in numerous countries. Don't see how that is an issue..Pakistan is okay with China reaping the benefits but in return it gets a mega infrastructure project in a part of the country where development has been 0. I still don't get why Indians are hurting so much...the ultimate price is Pakistan's to pay.

 

[R0H1T]

China has invested billions in Africa as well and continues to do all the work there. The only difference between China and India's investment is that China is doing the same thing in numerous countries. Don't see how that is an issue..Pakistan is okay with China reaping the benefits but in return it gets a mega infrastructure project in a part of the country where development has been 0. I still don't get why Indians are hurting so much...the ultimate price is Pakistan's to pay.

You're talking about Afghanistan aren;t you, in your last post, I responded to that, where does Pak come into this?

I've said this a million times, you should own your infrastructure, your assets (industry) & everything that creates jobs to be able to progress meaningfully. If you don;t care, really there's not much to be said. These things are the most important part of any economy so you don;t loan them, rent them & certainly not sell them.

 

[IndYeah1]

Massively overstates the actual commercial value of an alternative "land route" to China. OBOR is just a way to use up the surplus infrastructure capacity that China is stuck with, and corner up vulnerable markets for chinese goods in the process. Also, an attempt to try and boost the economic growth of the languishing "inner" provinces of China.

The cost per mile of transporting goods via sea, as opposed over land, never makes economic sense. With the warming planet, even the Arctic routes are going to open up for sea transit. OBOR gives China the ability to dominate the various "stans" in its western neighborhood. Kind of like the US has made banana republics all over its sphere of influence. All those countries in central America and the caribbean - all they are left with is growing bananas and selling them to the fat Americans. Go read up on history, the monroe doctrine, and you will know why.

 

[R0H1T]

Massively overstates the actual commercial value of an alternative "land route" to China. OBOR is just a way to use up the surplus infrastructure capacity that China is stuck with, and corner up vulnerable markets for chinese goods in the process. Also, an attempt to try and boost the economic growth of the languishing "inner" provinces of China.

The cost per mile of transporting goods via sea, as opposed over land, never makes economic sense. With the warming planet, even the Arctic routes are going to open up for sea transit. OBOR gives China the ability to dominate the various "stans" in its western neighborhood. Kind of like the US has made banana republics all over its sphere of influence. All those countries in central America and the caribbean - all they are left with is growing bananas and selling them to the fat Americans. Go read up on history, the monroe doctrine, and you will know why.

This is what they're trying to do, massive overproduction & even 1.3 billion people are not enough to absorb all these white goods & a number of other products.

Basically China is exporting their deflation & there's a fear when this bubble burst it'll tank the world economy, if not now then in the next decade.

 

[Yossarian]

Saudi Arabia is different. You will not find enough locals there qualified to do the work, unlike in Pakistan.

Did you forget to read the rest of my post? The part relating to the USA?

 

[Yossarian]

Labor in Pakistan is substantially cheaper and, at least in this case, there's a glut of qualified professionals so the skill shortage excuse doesn't fly either. Chinese companies, unlike shareholder owned western corporations, can be and are influenced by the Chinese state and this particular issue has received enough coverage not just in Pakistan but elsewhere for it to have been established by now that using Chinese staff wherever possible is very much a Chinese government policy to keep employment levels high. Pakistan isn't the first country where this issue has created problems, it has been a contentious issue in virtually every African country where Chinese firms operate.

Cost has very little to do with it or otherwise they'd have hired locals in most countries since they almost exclusively do this in poor countries like Pakistan and Uganda where labor costs are significantly lower. Housing etc cost more for Chinese employees since the companies have to pay for them (I doubt the UK for instance would allow it - their government literally has British experts, paid for by Huawei, examine every piece of equipment Huawei ships to the UK for security purposes).



The "valid" reason is that they can get away with it and their state, which enjoys considerably more influence over their corporations than western governments do over western corporations, encourages (read mandates) it. Pakistani authorities bend over backwards to accommodate the Chinese at the detriment of their own citizens. Skills don't factor into the equation since the western companies that the Chinese ones replaced hired Pakistanis almost exclusively except at the very top and they left behind thousands of qualified professionals. My former employer previously used Nokia equipment so I've worked with their Pakistani engineers and ZTE's Chinese ones. I'd take the Pakistani engineers any day of the week if I was on a hiring committee even if I had to pay a premium for it because someone trained to follow Nokia or Ericsson's organizational practices would be worth the premium over a Huawei trained grunt, much less a ZTE one.

Don't know to what extent you've worked outside Pakistan. But in my case, I have lived and worked in the Middle East, in the UK, in continental Europe, as well as the USA, for UK, European and American employers, with suppliers and clients (corporate as well as govt.) and workforces from virtually every part of the globe. And my personal and professional experiences in working in all these places tells me that you're making far too many (false) assumptions in your post.

The Chinese do something that very few countries outside the likes of China, S.Korea, Germany (and to some extents Japan still) do, certainly not the Pakistanis, ie Stick to deadlines, budgets and deliver on time. And that is very much down to the mentality of everyone in the company, from the CEO/Chairman down to the most lowly worker. Perhaps you should be considering this factor when talking about why Chinese workers are being hired instead of Pakistanis.

 

[DW44]

Don't know to what extent you've worked outside Pakistan. But in my case, I have lived and worked in the Middle East, in the UK, in continental Europe, as well as the USA, for UK, European and American employers, with suppliers and clients (corporate as well as govt.) and workforces from virtually every part of the globe. And my personal and professional experiences in working in all these places tells me that you're making far too many (false) assumptions in your post.

The Chinese do something that very few countries outside the likes of China, S.Korea, Germany (and to some extents Japan still) do, certainly not the Pakistanis, ie Stick to deadlines, budgets and deliver on time. And that is very much down to the mentality of everyone in the company, from the CEO/Chairman down to the most lowly worker. Perhaps you should be considering this factor when talking about why Chinese workers are being hired instead of Pakistanis.

The one place where you have not worked is Pakistan and I don't know about the west but Pakistan is substantially different from the middle east. One of the biggest issues we faced as a client after switching from a European vendor with Pakistani staff to a Chinese one were increased rollout times and more copious amounts of requests for extension of deadlines so maybe you shouldn't extrapolate your experience in the West and middle east to Pakistan. The Chinese don't operate the same way in every jurisdiction they operate in, they adapt to the local environment.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Isn't this what tata consultancy do and others do in Uk and USA.... bring in their own management and workers from home and eventually exports the jobs back home.... I am amazed at how this is never brought into the spotlight in UK.

I suppose this type of capitalism and market forces are the reasons why Trump came into power.

At this nascent stage, perhaps the Chinese need to have majority of their own people to get the whole ball rolling speedily. As time passes, they will want to take on more locals to keep their investment protected for the long term.

 

[Yossarian]

The one place where you have not worked is Pakistan and I don't know about the west but Pakistan is substantially different from the middle east. One of the biggest issues we faced as a client after switching from a European vendor with Pakistani staff to a Chinese one were increased rollout times and more copious amounts of requests for extension of deadlines so maybe you shouldn't extrapolate your experience in the West and middle east to Pakistan. The Chinese don't operate the same way in every jurisdiction they operate in, they adapt to the local environment.

There's an english expression "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Pakistan's economy is in a mess (and it's not completely the governments fault), whereas China's economy is a success.

That has a lot to do with the mentality of the workforce, from the top down to the most lowly, in most sectors of the economy. That's why some of the top Western companies, such as Apple, outsource the manufacture of their products to China. How many of these Western companies outsource their manufacturing to Pakistan? Heck, they're even choosing to outsource to Bangladesh over Pakistan. And it's not just because of terrorism. Or corrupt politicians, because politicians are just as corrupt in India and Bangladesh.

The Chinese don't operate the same way in every jurisdiction they operate in, they adapt to the local environment.

So the Chinese become poorly organised, poorly managed and more bureaucratic when they operate in Pakistan, as compared to their operations in other countries, because "they've adapted to the Pakistani environment"? Surely if that is the case then that says more about Pakistanis than it says about the Chinese? Or do you not get that?

 

[R0H1T]

Isn't this what tata consultancy do and others do in Uk and USA.... bring in their own management and workers from home and eventually exports the jobs back home.... I am amazed at how this is never brought into the spotlight in UK.

I suppose this type of capitalism and market forces are the reasons why Trump came into power.

At this nascent stage, perhaps the Chinese need to have majority of their own people to get the whole ball rolling speedily. As time passes, they will want to take on more locals to keep their investment protected for the long term.

Haha, look up outsourcing, really do so.

Keep dreaming, that's the one thing anyone can do.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Haha, look up outsourcing, really do so.

Keep dreaming, that's the one thing anyone can do.

That post pretty much sums up Pakistan and the current state they are in, this
un- get- out- able mess this country is in. One good thing to come out will be; when China takes control of majority of Pakistan's economy, there will be no religious fundamentalism, China will kick their butts if the camel jockeys come out sighting jihad and other nonsense...

 

[sshakir411]

You're talking about Afghanistan aren;t you, in your last post, I responded to that, where does Pak come into this?

I've said this a million times, you should own your infrastructure, your assets (industry) & everything that creates jobs to be able to progress meaningfully. If you don;t care, really there's not much to be said. These things are the most important part of any economy so you don;t loan them, rent them & certainly not sell them.

I can only laugh at your reply. Please look up how much of the American economy is based of leasing assets...specially airlines and locomotive..in fact, GE has entire plants all over the world that have been leased or have long term leases on properties/equipment... Please, there's no right way to do one thing. Thanks for your concern..but you guys seriously can't be trusted when it comes to Pakistan even if you were the last civilization left on Earth.

 

[R0H1T]

I can only laugh at your reply. Please look up how much of the American economy is based of leasing assets...specially airlines and locomotive..in fact, GE has entire plants all over the world that have been leased or have long term leases on properties/equipment... Please, there's no right way to do one thing. Thanks for your concern..but you guys seriously can't be trusted when it comes to Pakistan even if you were the last civilization left on Earth.

Keep on laughing, since you won;t own anything, besides GE owning anything outside of the US proves your point how? Oh wait, I guess GE mush be a Chinese firm holding US assets & leasing stuff all around the globe. Check your logic meter & fill it with gas, since you;ve clearly run out of arguments!

 

[sshakir411]

Keep on laughing, since you won;t own anything, besides GE owning anything outside of the US proves your point how? Oh wait, I guess GE mush be a Chinese firm holding US assets & leasing stuff all around the globe. Check your logic meter & fill it with gas, since you;ve clearly run out of arguments!

Wow you're losing it. Relax. Since I see you struggle so much with something very simple, I'll spell it out for you, buddy.

GE is a public entity and its stock is owned by numerous people and organizations which includes Chinese holding companies. You'll be surprised to know that GE's Electric Appliance business is now owned by Chinese company...so yes, part of GE is actually Chinese..which holds US assets and leases them around the globe including India.

Source: http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/the-biggest-american-companies-now-owned-by-the-chinese/

As I said before, China is doing this all over the world..and Pakistan is just a small part of it's grand strategy. The biggest economy in the world actually doesn't own most of the assets in its industry...so your posts are garbage.

Bye Felicia.

 

[DW44]

There's an english expression "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Pakistan's economy is in a mess (and it's not completely the governments fault), whereas China's economy is a success.

That has a lot to do with the mentality of the workforce, from the top down to the most lowly, in most sectors of the economy. That's why some of the top Western companies, such as Apple, outsource the manufacture of their products to China. How many of these Western companies outsource their manufacturing to Pakistan? Heck, they're even choosing to outsource to Bangladesh over Pakistan. And it's not just because of terrorism. Or corrupt politicians, because politicians are just as corrupt in India and Bangladesh.

So the Chinese become poorly organised, poorly managed and more bureaucratic when they operate in Pakistan, as compared to their operations in other countries, because "they've adapted to the Pakistani environment"? Surely if that is the case then that says more about Pakistanis than it says about the Chinese? Or do you not get that?

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that China is Japan. It is not. It is still very much a developing country with development indicators comparable to Brazil (a notoriously corrupt and inefficient country) and inferior to the likes of Mexico. Their economy is dominated by state owned firms that are inherently inefficient and while the competitive environment in the West may force them to raise their game to survive, there are no such pressures on them in Pakistan.

These are not Toshiba and NEC we're talking about, these are firms owned by the Chinese government and one owned by a PLA general. You seem very keen on experience and proof so here are the facts: I speak from experience. You speak based on abstract ideas and your experience with firms in a different sector and very different markets. I don't need to be told by someone who has not worked a day in Pakistan, with European firms or Chinese ones whether or not my experiences are valid. So far you have offered nothing more than hypotheticals and generalizations. The Chinese have done well for themselves but they are still very much behind the curve albeit progressing far more rapidly than Pakistan. I have experience with European vendors and Chinese ones. I would always take a Pakistani who has worked 5 years for Nokia than a Chinese engineer with 8 years in ZTE.

Low as your opinion of Pakistanis may be, there are 200 million of us and there's more than enough who, through working with western firms, are up to speed with their work practices and can hold their own against any hyper efficient Chinese drones.

 

[Yossarian]

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that China is Japan. It is not. It is still very much a developing country with development indicators comparable to Brazil (a notoriously corrupt and inefficient country) and inferior to the likes of Mexico. Their economy is dominated by state owned firms that are inherently inefficient and while the competitive environment in the West may force them to raise their game to survive, there are no such pressures on them in Pakistan.

These are not Toshiba and NEC we're talking about, these are firms owned by the Chinese government and one owned by a PLA general. You seem very keen on experience and proof so here are the facts: I speak from experience. You speak based on abstract ideas and your experience with firms in a different sector and very different markets. I don't need to be told by someone who has not worked a day in Pakistan, with European firms or Chinese ones whether or not my experiences are valid. So far you have offered nothing more than hypotheticals and generalizations. The Chinese have done well for themselves but they are still very much behind the curve albeit progressing far more rapidly than Pakistan. I have experience with European vendors and Chinese ones. I would always take a Pakistani who has worked 5 years for Nokia than a Chinese engineer with 8 years in ZTE.

Low as your opinion of Pakistanis may be, there are 200 million of us and there's more than enough who, through working with western firms, are up to speed with their work practices and can hold their own against any hyper efficient Chinese drones.

Oh dear oh dear. From the sounds of it you'd prefer if the Chinese went away and left Pakistan altogether. Well it appears as if you're going to be extremely disappointed due to the reasons I outlined earlier, ie their need/desire to develop an alternate land route to the Indian ocean that reduces their dependency on the South Chine Sea routes and the choke points such as the Strait of Malacca. The Chinese aren't leaving, so you'd better get used to it. The Chinese might be just migrant workers today, but they will bring over families, settle down, create Chinese communities, and over time become a fabric of Pakistani society. Just as they are in the USA & UK. Just as the desis are in the USA and the UK. So, as I said, get used to it.

 

[DW44]

Oh dear oh dear. From the sounds of it you'd prefer if the Chinese went away and left Pakistan altogether. Well it appears as if you're going to be extremely disappointed due to the reasons I outlined earlier, ie their need/desire to develop an alternate land route to the Indian ocean that reduces their dependency on the South Chine Sea routes and the choke points such as the Strait of Malacca. The Chinese aren't leaving, so you'd better get used to it. The Chinese might be just migrant workers today, but they will bring over families, settle down, create Chinese communities, and over time become a fabric of Pakistani society. Just as they are in the USA & UK. Just as the desis are in the USA and the UK. So, as I said, get used to it.

What I'd prefer is that Pakistani authorities not bend over backwards for every demand the Chinese make. There's good money to be made for both sides if Pakistan plays it's cards well but at this point, the benefits are divided too unequally for my liking. Like you said, the Chinese are very keen on the alternate routes. Pakistan could easily leverage that to get more favorable terms without driving the Chinese away. The Chinese approach all issues with a single minded focus on their economy and the land route is important enough for them that Pakistan could have extracted serious concessions from them in return for access to it. For starters, welcome their capital but not their corporations unless they're willing to invest significantly in local manufacturing in conjunction with a local partner - this part is important because if they want the same rights as local firms, we're better off saying no and taking the short term pain.

The current terms of the two countries' economic relationship, from a development economics point of view, leave Pakistan with very little in the long run despite the dollar figures seeming impressive at the moment. That's not to say any Chinese involvement is inherently undesirable but there's a fine line between a mutually beneficial arrangement and being taken for a ride, and Pakistan, unfortunately, is on the wrong side of that line at the moment.

As far as the question of Chinese immigrants coming here in their droves, that's unlikely for the time being. The only Chinese people who're coming over right now are business owners (who I welcome) and people who are hired by Chinese companies in China to work as middle management or lower (who we could do without). For all the talk of market forces, even the most liberal economies protect their labor market like the Soviet Union would. Your own country is a great example of that.

 

[R0H1T]

Wow you're losing it. Relax. Since I see you struggle so much with something very simple, I'll spell it out for you, buddy.

GE is a public entity and its stock is owned by numerous people and organizations which includes Chinese holding companies. You'll be surprised to know that GE's Electric Appliance business is now owned by Chinese company...so yes, part of GE is actually Chinese..which holds US assets and leases them around the globe including India.

Source: http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/the-biggest-american-companies-now-owned-by-the-chinese/

As I said before, China is doing this all over the world..and Pakistan is just a small part of it's grand strategy. The biggest economy in the world actually doesn't own most of the assets in its industry...so your posts are garbage.

Bye Felicia.

Bud (that's the best name I can find for you) GE's appliance business didn;t even contribute a quarter of their revenues, before their financial arm was spun off I bet it didn't even do 10% of their global revenues! You do know what GE is famous for, don;t you & yet you bring the worst example to support an inane argument ~ consumer electronics? And stocks, really, do you need more one uppery to win an argument?

How do you suppose a Chinese owned power plant, employing Chinese employees (not all of them but say majority) & using Chinese raw materials (taking the worst case scenario) make money for Pakistan? Let me guess the govt of Pak will lease the land & use the rent to show growth? What about all the pvt sector Pak companies, oh right they barely make anything that's registers on the richter scale, so far as exports to China are concerned!

I guess they;ll lease office space in Shanghai or Beijing to show growth? Doesn;t hurt that Chinese companies are getting better terms to setup factories as compared to Pak owned businesses, reported by dawn, so I guess you'll be making money by exporting renminbi to China?

If it quacks like a duck, twats like one then you can bet your farm that it is a peking duck!

 

[JaDed]

Imo the Chinese are globalizing and trying to at least be genuine towards other cultures, Pakistanis cannot expect everything from Chinese,they should learn from them esp in tech,and create home grown solutions.

Only time will tell how this pans out but some investment is better than nothing.