Pakistan: A slice of China in Islamabad

[sshakir411]

Bud (that's the best name I can find for you) GE's appliance business didn;t even contribute a quarter of their revenues, before their financial arm was spun off I bet it didn't even do 10% of their global revenues! You do know what GE is famous for, don;t you & yet you bring the worst example to support an inane argument ~ consumer electronics? And stocks, really, do you need more one uppery to win an argument?

How do you suppose a Chinese owned power plant, employing Chinese employees (not all of them but say majority) & using Chinese raw materials (taking the worst case scenario) make money for Pakistan? Let me guess the govt of Pak will lease the land & use the rent to show growth? What about all the pvt sector Pak companies, oh right they barely make anything that's registers on the richter scale, so far as exports to China are concerned!

I guess they;ll lease office space in Shanghai or Beijing to show growth? Doesn;t hurt that Chinese companies are getting better terms to setup factories as compared to Pak owned businesses, reported by dawn, so I guess you'll be making money by exporting renminbi to China?

If it quacks like a duck, twats like one then you can bet your farm that it is a peking duck!

1) I used GE the parent company as an example of leasing assets and plants owned by China. I didn't choose GE's appliance business to explain anything..you brought it up. If you think the appliance business is the only place where GE does this then I'm sorry there's no point discussing this further.

2) No where did I mention that CPEC will make money for Pakistan..i simply stated that in return for the route Pakistan will get free infrastructure...please read what I said and don't make up stuff.

3) You've lost your marbles. Since you're such a dud...please re-read post #62 and comeback when you've understood it. No where did I say anything will Pakistan tons of money. Are you confusing me with someone else?

4) Don't bring up the topic of Chinese firms owning companies in the US or anywhere in the world..you clearly have no idea how much of the world's businesses are now owned and ran by China/Chinese.

 

[R0H1T]

1) I used GE the parent company as an example of leasing assets and plants owned by China. I didn't choose GE's appliance business to explain anything..you brought it up. If you think the appliance business is the only place where GE does this then I'm sorry there's no point discussing this further.

2) No where did I mention that CPEC will make money for Pakistan..i simply stated that in return for the route Pakistan will get free infrastructure...please read what I said and don't make up stuff.

3) You've lost your marbles. Since you're such a dud...please re-read post #62 and comeback when you've understood it. No where did I say anything will Pakistan tons of money. Are you confusing me with someone else?

4) Don't bring up the topic of Chinese firms owning companies in the US or anywhere in the world..you clearly have no idea how much of the world's businesses are now owned and ran by China/Chinese.

Oh & I'm the one who;s lost is marbles, figures where the delusion is coming from, when you can;t separate the propaganda from reality.

And yet they rely on western tech for well over a trillion dollar worth of exports, the Dragon can easily be tamed if these megacorps moved out of China. No one;s bending over backwards more to keep the likes of Apple, Samsung, Intel to produce their products in China more than the CCP. The Chinese barely have anything worth mentioning, in terms of IP they've developed at home, most of it is stolen tech or something gathered via acquisitions, yet western Europe+American firms still hold most of the aces.

 

[sshakir411]

Oh & I'm the one who;s lost is marbles, figures where the delusion is coming from, when you can;t separate the propaganda from reality.

And yet they rely on western tech for well over a trillion dollar worth of exports, the Dragon can easily be tamed if these megacorps moved out of China. No one;s bending over backwards more to keep the likes of Apple, Samsung, Intel to produce their products in China more than the CCP. The Chinese barely have anything worth mentioning, in terms of IP they've developed at home, most of it is stolen tech or something gathered via acquisitions, yet western Europe+American firms still hold most of the aces.

When did I say China is the pioneer in technology or better than the west? I seriously think you've confused me with some one else, dude. I'll choose to ignore the serious load of crap you've just written. Although I'll agree with the fact that China has no IP they've developed themselves.

 

[R0H1T]

When did I say China is the pioneer in technology or better than the west? I seriously think you've confused me with some one else, dude. I'll choose to ignore the serious load of crap you've just written. Although I'll agree with the fact that China has no IP they've developed themselves.

Alright enough with this useless back & forth, just answer this ~ how do you suppose Pak will make money in the long run when most of the infrastructure & industry along the CPEC will be owned/operated by China?

If you;ve got some hard numbers, like projects (industry) where Pak owns majority or 49% stake with a Chinese partner, or BoT infra projects where Pak govt will own the assets, like power plants, after the Chinese have built them, then we can take this further otherwise ciao.

 

[Muhammad10]

Don't get personal.

 

[sshakir411]

Alright enough with this useless back & forth, just answer this ~ how do you suppose Pak will make money in the long run when most of the infrastructure & industry along the CPEC will be owned/operated by China?

If you;ve got some hard numbers, like projects (industry) where Pak owns majority or 49% stake with a Chinese partner, or BoT infra projects where Pak govt will own the assets, like power plants, after the Chinese have built them, then we can take this further otherwise ciao.

Again - no where did I claim Pakistan will own majority stake with a Chinese partner or own power plants. Please don't assume stuff I have never written.

I suppose you've missed the main point here which is Pakistan does not expect to make billions out of this deal. What this gives Pakistan is development and infrastructure in a part of the country that has never been touched by locals nor the government. This project essentially will erect new cities along the route that will allow normal/average Pakistanis to move out of their villages and in to a more urban setting. Local Pakistanis can/will open up shops, restaurants, as well as housing for the Pakistanis who will move in to the area. Chinese will populate the companies built by them but where do you think the Chinese will bring everything else that will go in to those cities? Are they also going to build their own Chinese restaurants and move people from China to work in them? Are they going to supply janitorial and labor staff for cleaning up the cities? Where do you think China will get it's energy to run these companies and who will be providing them with ground logistics? How do you think a Chinese working in Balochistan will have access to a local cell phone sim? How will the Chinese employees buy their livestock, groceries, and other things needed? Are they all going to come from China in a box?

 

[R0H1T]

Again - no where did I claim Pakistan will own majority stake with a Chinese partner or own power plants. Please don't assume stuff I have never written.

I suppose you've missed the main point here which is Pakistan does not expect to make billions out of this deal. What this gives Pakistan is development and infrastructure in a part of the country that has never been touched by locals nor the government. This project essentially will erect new cities along the route that will allow normal/average Pakistanis to move out of their villages and in to a more urban setting. Local Pakistanis can/will open up shops, restaurants, as well as housing for the Pakistanis who will move in to the area. Chinese will populate the companies built by them but where do you think the Chinese will bring everything else that will go in to those cities? Are they also going to build their own Chinese restaurants and move people from China to work in them? Are they going to supply janitorial and labor staff for cleaning up the cities? Where do you think China will get it's energy to run these companies and who will be providing them with ground logistics? How do you think a Chinese working in Balochistan will have access to a local cell phone sim? How will the Chinese employees buy their livestock, groceries, and other things needed? Are they all going to come from China in a box?

You think that's a good thing?

I'm asking about industry, what you;re giving me is a services based economy. Restaurants, transportation, lodging et al are all services that a nation can fulfill on it;s own.

You need heavy industry, engineering & technology to grow from current levels (per capita) to something resembling an Indonesia or Malaysia in a few decades. Exports are a major part of any nation's growth, how do you suppose merchandise (or software) based exports will benefit you when most major industries will be owned by anyone other than Pak's private sector?

 

[sshakir411]

You think that's a good thing?

I'm asking about industry, what you;re giving me is a services based economy. Restaurants, transportation, lodging et al are all services that a nation can fulfill on it;s own.

You need heavy industry, engineering & technology to grow from current levels (per capita) to something resembling an Indonesia or Malaysia in a few decades. Exports are a major part of any nation's growth, how do you suppose merchandise (or software) based exports will benefit you when most major industries will be owned by anyone other than Pak's private sector?

Dude, do you really think CPEC will determine entire Pakistan's destiny? There are many other larger cities in Pakistan where the economy has been growing, albeit at a slow-ish pace. These are the same cities that have served Pakistan's economy for the last 70 years and it's where all our growth and development will come from. Balochistan and CPEC is just a small part of the bigger picture. Pakistan and Pakistanis are not relying on China to turn them in to the next Brazil..rather hoping that the work they do in the western province of Pakistan will provide some boost to our already existing economy.

You're right that significant growth will come through engineering and technology but Pakistan will never become a industrial manufacturing hub. It might have some niche manufacturing like sporting goods and textiles (which already exist) but that will never become the main source of income for Pakistanis. Irrigation and farming is another avenue that Pakistan can improve and grow. Also, with the rise in population the basic demographics are in place for Pakistan to improve in healthcare, education, and retail.

 

[Yossarian]

What I'd prefer is that Pakistani authorities not bend over backwards for every demand the Chinese make. There's good money to be made for both sides if Pakistan plays it's cards well but at this point, the benefits are divided too unequally for my liking. Like you said, the Chinese are very keen on the alternate routes. Pakistan could easily leverage that to get more favorable terms without driving the Chinese away. The Chinese approach all issues with a single minded focus on their economy and the land route is important enough for them that Pakistan could have extracted serious concessions from them in return for access to it. For starters, welcome their capital but not their corporations unless they're willing to invest significantly in local manufacturing in conjunction with a local partner - this part is important because if they want the same rights as local firms, we're better off saying no and taking the short term pain.

The current terms of the two countries' economic relationship, from a development economics point of view, leave Pakistan with very little in the long run despite the dollar figures seeming impressive at the moment. That's not to say any Chinese involvement is inherently undesirable but there's a fine line between a mutually beneficial arrangement and being taken for a ride, and Pakistan, unfortunately, is on the wrong side of that line at the moment.

As far as the question of Chinese immigrants coming here in their droves, that's unlikely for the time being. The only Chinese people who're coming over right now are business owners (who I welcome) and people who are hired by Chinese companies in China to work as middle management or lower (who we could do without). For all the talk of market forces, even the most liberal economies protect their labor market like the Soviet Union would. Your own country is a great example of that.

If Pakistanis and Pakistani companies had been half as successful as they should have been given the size of the population, investors would have been flooding into Pakistan to invest in Pakistani businesses and Pakistan's infrastructure. But they haven't been. It is just fortunate for Pakistan that China has a need, as outlined previously, that requires a better transport infrastructure within Pakistan. The Chinese realised that the only way it could be improved sufficiently for it to meet their needs was if the Chinese themselves financed it and project managed it. Neverthless, it is still a highly risky venture for the Chinese considering the security and political history of Pakistan.

So it came down to who blinked first. Pakistan's needs for Chinese investment but with the Chinese demanding special terms, or China's needs for a land route through Pakistan to the Indian ocean but the Pakistanis wishing to retain control and not giving in to the Chinese demands for special terms.

The Pakistanis blinked.

Basically, beggars can't be choosers.

Besides, thus far, looking in from the outside, only those wanting the status quo to continue, the very factors that has perventing Pakistan from progressing, are the ones that appear to be complaining the loudest.
If one was being cynical, one could get the impression that it was because they were afraid of losing their "You scratch my back, I scratch yours" privileged social circles that ensured they cherry picked the best jobs, the best opportunities and were now fearing the changes that could ocurr with the Chinese upsetting the apple cart.

 

[DW44]

If Pakistanis and Pakistani companies had been half as successful as they should have been given the size of the population, investors would have been flooding into Pakistan to invest in Pakistani businesses and Pakistan's infrastructure. But they haven't been. It is just fortunate for Pakistan that China has a need, as outlined previously, that requires a better transport infrastructure within Pakistan. The Chinese realised that the only way it could be improved sufficiently for it to meet their needs was if the Chinese themselves financed it and project managed it. Neverthless, it is still a highly risky venture for the Chinese considering the security and political history of Pakistan.

So it came down to who blinked first. Pakistan's needs for Chinese investment but with the Chinese demanding special terms, or China's needs for a land route through Pakistan to the Indian ocean but the Pakistanis wishing to retain control and not giving in to the Chinese demands for special terms.

The Pakistanis blinked.

Basically, beggars can't be choosers.

Besides, thus far, looking in from the outside, only those wanting the status quo to continue, the very factors that has perventing Pakistan from progressing, are the ones that appear to be complaining the loudest.
If one was being cynical, one could get the impression that it was because they were afraid of losing their "You scratch my back, I scratch yours" privileged social circles that ensured they cherry picked the best jobs, the best opportunities and were now fearing the changes that could ocurr with the Chinese upsetting the apple cart.

That's a pretty blinkered view to take. Past failures of Pakistani firms is no reason to shut down avenues of future success to them. Ultimately, the end game should be for Pakistan to be a developed country at some point and that's not happening off the back of foreign investment, you need globally competitive local firms for that. The state's role in making that happen can not be overstated. All historical precedent points to that conclusion. Economic development coincides largely with local manufacturers moving up the value chain with time. Foreign manufacturers, in low wage countries, have no incentive to do that. They stick around until the wages rise and then move to the next third world country. An inefficient manufacturing sector is still a superior option to an agrarian economy or one dominated by fickle foreign investors. Let's not pretend that Pakistan got the best possible terms out of the China deal that it could have gotten under the circumstances. Pakistan's government sold the economy down the river in return for a short term gain and the political capital it gets them for a few years.

The problem with looking from the outside is that you don't get the full picture. There are two camps that are complaining the loudest - economists, who have some very valid concerns, and ethnic nationalists, whose concerns are primarily centered on a different issue (Punjab getting favorable treatment at their provinces' expense) which is a different issue irrelevant to this discussion. It's rather petty to think that it comes down to people protecting their privilege because people who already have it will have it regardless of whether or not the Chinese come. The local elite will not really lose out much. They were making money before, and they have enough of a leg up over the rest of the country that they'll continue making it off the Chinese. It's the bigger picture, from a socioeconomic viewpoint, that suffers.

 

[Yossarian]

That's a pretty blinkered view to take. Past failures of Pakistani firms is no reason to shut down avenues of future success to them. Ultimately, the end game should be for Pakistan to be a developed country at some point and that's not happening off the back of foreign investment, you need globally competitive local firms for that. The state's role in making that happen can not be overstated. All historical precedent points to that conclusion. Economic development coincides largely with local manufacturers moving up the value chain with time. Foreign manufacturers, in low wage countries, have no incentive to do that. They stick around until the wages rise and then move to the next third world country. An inefficient manufacturing sector is still a superior option to an agrarian economy or one dominated by fickle foreign investors. Let's not pretend that Pakistan got the best possible terms out of the China deal that it could have gotten under the circumstances. Pakistan's government sold the economy down the river in return for a short term gain and the political capital it gets them for a few years.

The problem with looking from the outside is that you don't get the full picture. There are two camps that are complaining the loudest - economists, who have some very valid concerns, and ethnic nationalists, whose concerns are primarily centered on a different issue (Punjab getting favorable treatment at their provinces' expense) which is a different issue irrelevant to this discussion. It's rather petty to think that it comes down to people protecting their privilege because people who already have it will have it regardless of whether or not the Chinese come. The local elite will not really lose out much. They were making money before, and they have enough of a leg up over the rest of the country that they'll continue making it off the Chinese. It's the bigger picture, from a socioeconomic viewpoint, that suffers.

That's it, take a blinkered view and blame everything on the foreigners.

In an earlier post, part of the reason you implied that the Chinese were inefficient and beaurocratic in their Pakistani operations was because:

..... The Chinese don't operate the same way in every jurisdiction they operate in, they adapt to the local environment.

...... My dealings with Huawei are limited(we trialled their equipment, which is superior to ZTE's but had a corrupt CTO on ZTE's payroll) but in ZTE, who was our main vendor, we had to go through four to five layers of Chinese managers and administrators before we even saw a Pakistani.

Meaning the Pakistanis are inefficient and beaurocratic?

Whilst you agree that Pakistani firms have not been successful in the past, presumably partly due to corruption as well as being inefficient and beaurocratic, yet now you suddenly expect Pakistanis to change overnight and become models of enterprise, efficiency and innovation?

The problem with looking from the outside is that you don't get the full picture..

Or perhaps those on the inside complaining the most, as you appear to be doing, "Can't see the wood for the trees", whilst those on the outside looking in, without the baggage that comes from being part of the problem (since they too are members of the society that has led Pakistan to the current state it's in), and without any vested interests, are more clearly able to see the big picture.

Pakistan's been independent for over 70 years now, it's time to stop blame the foreigners and start looking within.

 

[Specialisttailender]

I studied in a South Indian university which saw oodles of Chinese guys - and they're impossible to mingle with. They make no attempt to learn English, don't enjoy Indian food and don't make any friends outside their circle either.

I can't imagine it to be too different in Pakistan.

In my university we have lots of Chinese students, they don't get along with everyone unlike Vietnamese, Cambodian and other students. Their second generation is friendly though.

 

[Firebreaker]

I studied in a South Indian university which saw oodles of Chinese guys - and they're impossible to mingle with. They make no attempt to learn English, don't enjoy Indian food and don't make any friends outside their circle either.

I can't imagine it to be too different in Pakistan.

This maybe the case only in India because in every other country where I have met Chinese be it UAE,Italy or Pakistan they have learned the native language of that country.Chinese are more fluent in Urdu than some people of Lahore.My friend in Pakistan was a Chinese and he could speak Punjabi let alone Urdu and also cuss words in both languages

 

[R0H1T]

This maybe the case only in India because in every other country where I have met Chinese be it UAE,Italy or Pakistan they have learned the native language of that country.Chinese are more fluent in Urdu than some people of Lahore.My friend in Pakistan was a Chinese and he could speak Punjabi let alone Urdu and also cuss words in both languages

That doesn;t mean all Chinese are ready to mingle or that they value the host nation's culture or values ~
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/hig...s/news-story/79febfc3fd91f84604173c79a1f249a3

 

[Eagle_Eye]

That's a pretty blinkered view to take. Past failures of Pakistani firms is no reason to shut down avenues of future success to them. Ultimately, the end game should be for Pakistan to be a developed country at some point and that's not happening off the back of foreign investment, you need globally competitive local firms for that. The state's role in making that happen can not be overstated. All historical precedent points to that conclusion. Economic development coincides largely with local manufacturers moving up the value chain with time. Foreign manufacturers, in low wage countries, have no incentive to do that. They stick around until the wages rise and then move to the next third world country. An inefficient manufacturing sector is still a superior option to an agrarian economy or one dominated by fickle foreign investors. Let's not pretend that Pakistan got the best possible terms out of the China deal that it could have gotten under the circumstances. Pakistan's government sold the economy down the river in return for a short term gain and the political capital it gets them for a few years.

The problem with looking from the outside is that you don't get the full picture. There are two camps that are complaining the loudest - economists, who have some very valid concerns, and ethnic nationalists, whose concerns are primarily centered on a different issue (Punjab getting favorable treatment at their provinces' expense) which is a different issue irrelevant to this discussion. It's rather petty to think that it comes down to people protecting their privilege because people who already have it will have it regardless of whether or not the Chinese come. The local elite will not really lose out much. They were making money before, and they have enough of a leg up over the rest of the country that they'll continue making it off the Chinese. It's the bigger picture, from a socioeconomic viewpoint, that suffers.

I have been reading your POV, actually I don't disagree with what you say about pushing and creating your own industry. After all this is how china came to the fore itself. but there is a gaping anomaly in that where is the appetite to grow local industry from the government .....

 

[MABA]

Just came back from a visit from Pakistan, the only foreigners I saw there were Chinese. Infact at Karachi airport they were arriving by the the busload, literally saw a whole bus filled with just Chinese. Also noticed the proliferation of Chinese company advertisements notably OPPO which seem to spam their brand all over Karachi buildings. Cannot say if its bad or good, but just things I noticed on my very recent visit.

 

[UN talkz]

Just came back from a visit from Pakistan, the only foreigners I saw there were Chinese. Infact at Karachi airport they were arriving by the the busload, literally saw a whole bus filled with just Chinese. Also noticed the proliferation of Chinese company advertisements notably OPPO which seem to spam their brand all over Karachi buildings. Cannot say if its bad or good, but just things I noticed on my very recent visit.

OPPO and VIVO hoardings are everywhere in INDIA as well... At every damn place... They have placed even at public toilets. Every shopkeeper has a VIVO or OPPO hoardings at tge top of shop, doesn't matter even if it's medical shop. Last month I visited Punjab and Himachal and found tge same thing everywhere...

 

[DW44]

I have been reading your POV, actually I don't disagree with what you say about pushing and creating your own industry. After all this is how china came to the fore itself. but there is a gaping anomaly in that where is the appetite to grow local industry from the government .....

It's a moot point now anyway. The FTA with China killed any chances of a competent government setting things right in the future.

 

[JaDed]

OPPO and VIVO hoardings are everywhere in INDIA as well... At every damn place... They have placed even at public toilets. Every shopkeeper has a VIVO or OPPO hoardings at tge top of shop, doesn't matter even if it's medical shop. Last month I visited Punjab and Himachal and found tge same thing everywhere...

True,they have invested a lot in India,plus phones are much cheaper,although public still prefers Redmi compared to the two.

Personally I prefer Xolo among these phones(unknown brands although this is Indian assembled),coz battery.

 

[sweep_shot]

UNITED NATIONS: China’s treatment of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang province came under debate at the United Nations on Tuesday, with 54 nations praising Beijing’s “remarkable achievements in the field of human rights” but 23 states assailing its record.

It all began when the 23 nations — mostly western — backed a British statement condemning Beijing’s track record.

However, China’s allies countered the move with a statement of their own that won even broader support, with 54 states supporting a Belarus text that heaped effusive praise on Beijing. They included Pakistan, Russia, Egypt, Bolivia, the Democra*tic Republic of Congo and Serbia.

The duelling statements at the UN General Assembly are non-binding, but highlight the divide on China’s human rights record — particularly as Beijing moves to flex its diplomatic and economic clout abroad.

Rights groups claim more than one million Uighurs and other mostly Muslim ethnic minorities have been rounded up in internment camps in Xinjiang. After initially denying their existence, Beijing now defends the camps as “vocational education centres” that are necessary to counter religious extremism and terrorism.

Britain’s UN statement expressed concerns “regarding credible reports of mass detention; efforts to restrict cultural and religious practices; mass surveillance disproportionately targeting ethnic Uighurs; and other human rights violations and abuses”.

“The Chinese government should urgently... (refrain) from the arbitrary detention of Uighurs and members of other Muslim communities,” it said. Countries backing it included the United States, Germany, France, Canada, Japan and New Zealand.

In contrast, the statement from Belarus praised Beijing’s human rights record that won support from over 50 nations. “We commend China’s remarkable achievements in the field of human rights by adhering to the people-centred development philosophy and protecting and promoting human rights through development,” the statement said.

“We also appreciate China’s contributions to the international human rights cause,” it added.

Source: https://www.dawn.com/news/1513950/pakistan-among-54-nations-praising-chinas-human-rights-record.