Pakistan Army Chief Qamar Javed Bajwa says it is time to bury the past and move forward

[RajBan]

Can see where you are coming from but still bigboi's other points stand and it's still better option for India to have better relationships with Pak to counter Chinese and cut them to size, otherwise it will be too little too late, Pak surely will be worse of but India will hurt their interest also if status quo remain, India won't be doing any favors but should safe guard their interest and in current scenario it's also in their interest tu have workable relationships with Pak.

Ohh absolutely. There is no denying that. If Indian government tries to be either hawkish or indifferent to Pakistan's misery then China or any other vested interest won't mind to exploit that. Its in our best interest we maintain links with Pakistani establishment, no need to be defensive or aggressive. Just normal diplomatic connect needs to be maintained, along with control of violence on sensitive areas, no LOC violation etc. Just do not finger each other, let it happen at its own pace and ignore the hawks and the peaceniks. The latter is even more dangerous as they constitute certain percentage of people who wants to paint a rosy picture for individual and commercial benefit. Once things look steady then open it up for cross border trading and medical treatments. Take one step at a time, maintain the sanity and do not get lost in the media or bollywood drama. This drama of "Ah mere bhai gale lag ja" and then in the next minute " Tu hai dhokebaaz " is nothing but to fool aam admi by the powers that be aided by media and foolish netizen fan boys.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Your analysis is very good on the whole. The first part where you dealt with current status and policy stance on both India Pak had some assumptions or half truths but it doesn't matter as your prescribed outcome is correct. That overreliance on china is not good for Pakistan or India. It will create a headache for India but be a spinal injury for Pakistan. It will hit the backbone of economy and politics and I am not sure but might have religious implication.

However, in the second part, you have mentioned only three players China Pak and India and then you have attempted to predict the results of continuing Chinese influence over Pakistan and dangers to India.

Some correction if I may point out.
The dangers of Chinese power only remain till the government remains. In SL this influence had changed when Sirisena came to power. There were waves of Anti-china cases and again situation reversed when the dynastic Rajpaakse govt won. The Sri Lankans I meet in Colombo and speak to (SL ppers may confirm this) actually abhor china's involvement in their countries politics so it will become increasingly difficult for china to pour (development) money during election time. SL as I have heard them actually much prefered Japan due to their long standing aid as soft loans.
So, chinese influence in democratic countries is limited to which side of political party it is aligned with.

India should know as they are also dragged in SL politics now. This situation is nothing new for India.
It is nothing new for Pakistan too as per the experience had with previous US govt. USA found that there are multiple players involved in Pakistan government and the elected govt officials are only one part here and then there is the Pak Defence force which wield enormous power unlike Indian head of defence. There are other agencies who always will attempt to subvert any peaceful dialogue and these players have a stronghold on Pakistan's politics. Some of them are external and one of them had been flushed out by USA and terminated. Some of them still are in hiding (aided by differing local political players).

Nothing that India (or current Pak PM) can do that will satisfy the multiple state players that control the powers in different parts of Pakistan. It is only the powerless millions of ordinary folks who really wish the peace to happen NOW.
The Army chief has said its time to bury the hatchet but to me it sounds more like an attempt to negotiate some more with China.

It's not a negotiating ploy with China, the Army chief is on his way out and is trying to secure an exit strategy so that he isn't made an example of once he is out of office. There is an aspect of trying to protect oneself from the Sword of Damocles that hangs over the fate of each army chief in this country.

The point about the Chinese aligning with political parties is moot in Pakistan. When Imran Khan came to power, he tried to reverse some of the mess that we had got ourselves into by inviting the Saudis and Malaysians to invest in CPEC projects, but a quick call to the Army Chief from Beijing put paid to those ambitions. The Chinese have learnt from their experience in Sri Lanka and know intimately which side the bread needs to be buttered. They won't leave themselves vulnerable to the slings and arrows of political fortune in Pakistan, they deal directly with the real powerbrokers.

Pakistan has limited room to manoeuvre unfortunately and are cornered into this relationship with China, and I can't really see a way out in the long-run unless they are prepared to make significant concessions to India. The cold war between the west and the Chinese is only beginning and I expect the pressure on Pakistan will only mount.

 

[Napa]

Pakistan has limited room to manoeuvre unfortunately and are cornered into this relationship with China, and I can't really see a way out in the long-run unless they are prepared to make significant concessions to India. The cold war between the west and the Chinese is only beginning and I expect the pressure on Pakistan will only mount.

The thing that will really put Pakistan's economy on the upward trajectory is to get out of the jihadi business, get the Army out of the economy, and give investors freedom to create wealth and security that their wealth will not be appropriated.

Unfortunately, it is unlikely to happen as the Army is too strong, and the population has been fed a steady diet of stories about Indian atrocities in Kashmir so fighting India takes precedence over everything else for many Pakistanis.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It's not a negotiating ploy with China, the Army chief is on his way out and is trying to secure an exit strategy so that he isn't made an example of once he is out of office. There is an aspect of trying to protect oneself from the Sword of Damocles that hangs over the fate of each army chief in this country.

The point about the Chinese aligning with political parties is moot in Pakistan. When Imran Khan came to power, he tried to reverse some of the mess that we had got ourselves into by inviting the Saudis and Malaysians to invest in CPEC projects, but a quick call to the Army Chief from Beijing put paid to those ambitions. The Chinese have learnt from their experience in Sri Lanka and know intimately which side the bread needs to be buttered. They won't leave themselves vulnerable to the slings and arrows of political fortune in Pakistan, they deal directly with the real powerbrokers.

Pakistan has limited room to manoeuvre unfortunately and are cornered into this relationship with China, and I can't really see a way out in the long-run unless they are prepared to make significant concessions to India. The cold war between the west and the Chinese is only beginning and I expect the pressure on Pakistan will only mount.

Problem is trust. Is Modi willing to risk a Kargil? Or a Mumbai or Pathankot?

Right now Modi is in a place where he doesn't need to engage with Pakistan. He is comfortably placed and has the best chance of winning a third term.

I have my doubts if Pakistan Army can really afford to give concessions to India without jeopardizing their domestic position.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Problem is trust. Is Modi willing to risk a Kargil? Or a Mumbai or Pathankot?

Right now Modi is in a place where he doesn't need to engage with Pakistan. He is comfortably placed and has the best chance of winning a third term.

I have my doubts if Pakistan Army can really afford to give concessions to India without jeopardizing their domestic position.

Depends on whether Modi sees China as a threat to be countered or is narrow-minded enough to continue to focus exclusively on Pakistan.

The West is banking on India as part of their new China strategy, and getting Pakistan onside could serve as a significant blow in that battle. I confess that the possibility of Pakistan giving those concessions to jeopardize their own relationship with China is highly remote.

As an aside, the Army can give those concessions and no one will bat an eyelid here. Their position is relatively secure, and the common man, contrary to the bizarre ramblings of the Indian media or even expatriate Pakistanis with no clue of ground realities in Pakistan, will welcome the prospect of peace with India.

I won't be betting on such an outcome though, as I doubt the West or the Middle East can provide the economic guarantees (/bribes) to Pakistan that have been conferred by the Chinese.

 

[Greenstorm]

Depends on whether Modi sees China as a threat to be countered or is narrow-minded enough to continue to focus exclusively on Pakistan.

The West is banking on India as part of their new China strategy, and getting Pakistan onside could serve as a significant blow in that battle. I confess that the possibility of Pakistan giving those concessions to jeopardize their own relationship with China is highly remote.

As an aside, the Army can give those concessions and no one will bat an eyelid here. Their position is relatively secure, and the common man, contrary to the bizarre ramblings of the Indian media or even expatriate Pakistanis with no clue of ground realities in Pakistan, will welcome the prospect of peace with India.

I won't be betting on such an outcome though, as I doubt the West or the Middle East can provide the economic guarantees (/bribes) to Pakistan that have been conferred by the Chinese.

Thats not true at all. Common man in Pakistan may have welcomed these peace overtures before but since Modi's rise and specially after the crackdown on Kashmiris, there is increasing pressure on Pakistan's military and government to take an offensive stance against India.

Indians and self hating Pakistanis usually present this ridiculous theory that Pakistan's military is the only reason for hostility between both countries. They forget the fact that it was the common man who took part in Pakistan movement to separate himself from the Indians and it was him again who invaded Kashmir 47-48 (months before military's invasion) to liberate Kashmiris. Except a few losers here and there, no Pakistani is willing to compromise on Kashmir.

 

[Napa]

Except a few losers here and there, no Pakistani is willing to compromise on Kashmir.

Your idea of a winner seems to be someone who will keep trying to wrest Kashmir from India. 74 years of failure means nothing to you, it will never happen because India is getting stronger. Your economy will keep rotting as ISI nurtures jihadis and you will keep feeling you are winning.

 

[Greenstorm]

Your idea of a winner seems to be someone who will keep trying to wrest Kashmir from India. 74 years of failure means nothing to you, it will never happen because India is getting stronger. Your economy will keep rotting as ISI nurtures jihadis and you will keep feeling you are winning.

We can keep debating on who is actually winning in Kashmir and who is not but this is all irrelevant.

It is beyond ridiculous to assume that Pakistan's military is the reason behind hostility between both countries and that was my point.

 

[Napa]

We can keep debating on who is actually winning in Kashmir and who is not but this is all irrelevant.

There is nothing to debate here. India has never been in danger of losing Kashmir as the four wars with Pakistan have proven. All Pakistan has achieved by fighting wars with India is lose half its country without gaining anything in Kashmir. Only time they got some of Kashmir was early when they fought the Raja's troops rather than the Indian Army.

If anything, with the scrapping of special status for Kashmir, things are moving in the other direction.

It is beyond ridiculous to assume that Pakistan's military is the reason behind hostility between both countries and that was my point.

Don't be naive. "Follow the money" as they say. If you cannot understand that the Pak Army gets the best of everything in Pakistan, you have very poor perception. As the biggest beneficiary of having India as an external enemy, it should be obvious that it is the Pak Army that wants the hostility to continue.

 

[Bigboii]

Damn [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] must have word document where he puts all the lines against ISI and Pak army and use it all the time

Even I am not that fond of Pak army (THIER domestic interference ) but you take it a whole another level...

 

[Greenstorm]

There is nothing to debate here. India has never been in danger of losing Kashmir as the four wars with Pakistan have proven. All Pakistan has achieved by fighting wars with India is lose half its country without gaining anything in Kashmir. Only time they got some of Kashmir was early when they fought the Raja's troops rather than the Indian Army.

If anything, with the scrapping of special status for Kashmir, things are moving in the other direction.



Don't be naive. "Follow the money" as they say. If you cannot understand that the Pak Army gets the best of everything in Pakistan, you have very poor perception. As the biggest beneficiary of having India as an external enemy, it should be obvious that it is the Pak Army that wants the hostility to continue.

You are deluded if you believe that 200 million Pakistanis are brainwashed by the military into hating India.

India has never accepted Pakistan, it never will and Pakistanis know it.

 

[Greenstorm]

Damn [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] must have word document where he puts all the lines against ISI and Pak army and use it all the time

Even I am not that fond of Pak army (THIER domestic interference ) but you take it a whole another level...

Pit the people against their military. An age old tactic.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You are deluded if you believe that 200 million Pakistanis are brainwashed by the military into hating India.

India has never accepted Pakistan, it never will and Pakistanis know it.

Who told you India hasn't accepted pakistan? How many times have India started a war with pakistan?

 

[Greenstorm]

Who told you India hasn't accepted pakistan? How many times have India started a war with pakistan?

Indians don't fight directly.

BLA, TTP, MQM, PTM, Mukti Bahni along with several others trained and funded by the Kulbhushans and Dovals. As I said, Pakistanis aren't naive, they know their enemy.

Indian government/media has successfully duped its people into believing that they are peace loving doves.

 

[Napa]

Damn [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] must have word document where he puts all the lines against ISI and Pak army and use it all the time

Even I am not that fond of Pak army (THIER domestic interference ) but you take it a whole another level...

The truth doesn't change from one post to another

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indians don't fight directly.

BLA, TTP, MQM, PTM, Mukti Bahni along with several others trained and funded by the Kulbhushans and Dovals. As I said, Pakistanis aren't naive, they know their enemy.

Indian government/media has successfully duped its people into believing that they are peace loving doves.

Pakistan has thrice tried to take Kashmir via war. Failed.

They have supported terrorism in Kashmir and the govt of Pakistan has accepted it.

Unlike false accusations of pakistan which has resulted in nothing, UN has actually banned Pakistanis and Pakistani organisations for terrorist activities in India.

 

[Bigboii]

Pakistan has thrice tried to take whole of Kashmir via war. Failed.

They have supported terrorism in Kashmir and the govt of Pakistan has accepted it.

Unlike false accusations of pakistan which has resulted in nothing, UN has actually banned Pakistanis and Pakistani organisations for terrorist activities in India.

...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Pakistan has thrice tried to take Kashmir via war. Failed.

They have supported terrorism in Kashmir and the govt of Pakistan has accepted it.

Unlike false accusations of pakistan which has resulted in nothing, UN has actually banned Pakistanis and Pakistani organisations for terrorist activities in India.

India havent even tried to get back their large of land known as Azad Kashmir.

Pakistan will continue to support the freedom struggle, nobody should take these comments too seriously. Pakistan isnt aiming these comments at India lol. Its aiming these at the international nations esp USA.

We both know a hardline Hindu extremist government will not want good relations with Pakistan, so nothing much to see here.

 

[Bigboii]

India havent even tried to get back their large of land known as Azad Kashmir.

Pakistan will continue to support the freedom struggle, nobody should take these comments too seriously. Pakistan isnt aiming these comments at India lol. Its aiming these at the international nations esp USA.

We both know a hardline Hindu extremist government will not want good relations with Pakistan, so nothing much to see here.

Status quo will stay the same whether we like it or not...

 

[Bigboii]

Status quo will stay the same whether we like it or not...

The mission rn is our lack of trust that India won't try to dominate us like they do with Bangladesh

Our independence should stay the same

This is the only thing the population/army is fighting for

An assumption or a genuine fear I don't know but that's the reason

I don't think any Pakistani seriously think we are still in the game for taking Kashmir that's a closed chapter

 

[Napa]

India havent even tried to get back their large of land known as Azad Kashmir.

No Indian leader is stupid enough to take on Pakistan's problems by annexing PoK.

Pakistan will continue to support the freedom struggle, nobody should take these comments too seriously. Pakistan isnt aiming these comments at India lol. Its aiming these at the international nations esp USA.

We both know a hardline Hindu extremist government will not want good relations with Pakistan, so nothing much to see here.

So this is talk only. But the US is not stupid, and talk only means they trust Pakistan even less.

 

[KingKhanWC]

No Indian leader is stupid enough to take on Pakistan's problems by annexing PoK.

Not what Joshilabhai and many in the BJP say. They say one day they will 'liberate' POK, we are still waiting for this momentus day to arrive.

So this is talk only. But the US is not stupid, and talk only means they trust Pakistan even less.

You dont understand. Many in Bidens party are not fans of the BJP. Pakistan is just being smart showing them they are willing to make peace but its' the extremist government in India which is not. This reaffirms Bidens voters views. India are trying to act peaceful in return. Its only political pandering to the new administration.

 

[Napa]

Not what Joshilabhai and many in the BJP say. They say one day they will 'liberate' POK, we are still waiting for this momentus day to arrive.

I haven't seen Joshila saying that India is going to take back PoK by invading it.

You dont understand. Many in Bidens party are not fans of the BJP. Pakistan is just being smart showing them they are willing to make peace but its' the extremist government in India which is not. This reaffirms Bidens voters views. India are trying to act peaceful in return. Its only political pandering to the new administration.

Voters vote and elect leaders. Then leaders decide policy. They are not going to take kindly to Pakistan's empty talk with the aim of influencing them. The voters are not going to change who they vote for depending upon how the US Admin supports or opposes Pakistan.

 

[ahsan17]

I haven't seen Joshila saying that India is going to take back PoK by invading it.

You seem to be playing mental gymnastics here. BJP leaders have certainly said many times about getting Pakistani Kashmir back. They have even talked about GB. How are they going to do that other invasion if they aren't interested in compromise or diplomacy?

 

[KingKhanWC]

I haven't seen Joshila saying that India is going to take back PoK by invading it.

I have. Your own government officials have stated this. I might be wrong but im sure Amit Shah is inclulded in this.

Voters vote and elect leaders. Then leaders decide policy. They are not going to take kindly to Pakistan's empty talk with the aim of influencing them. The voters are not going to change who they vote for depending upon how the US Admin supports or opposes Pakistan.

Again it's just political pandering or posturing. It takes away accusations of Pakistan not wanting peace. Whether they believe it or not, Pakistan is saying it.

 

[Napa]

You seem to be playing mental gymnastics here. BJP leaders have certainly said many times about getting Pakistani Kashmir back. They have even talked about GB. How are they going to do that other invasion if they aren't interested in compromise or diplomacy?

I have. Your own government officials have stated this. I might be wrong but im sure Amit Shah is inclulded in this.

What a few random BJP/Hindutva people may say matters little. If the Indian PM said it, then it would be different.

Again it's just political pandering or posturing. It takes away accusations of Pakistan not wanting peace. Whether they believe it or not, Pakistan is saying it.

If that is true, then it doesn't "away accusations of Pakistan not wanting peace" because the US is not stupid. It understands posturing versus real action even though you and the Pakistani government may think otherwise.

Thinking that Americans and the rest of the world are stupid and will fall for Pakistani "political pandering or posturing" (your words) is why Americans trust Pakistan less than any other country.



https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/23/few-americans-trust-pakistan/

 

[rhony]

I have. Your own government officials have stated this. I might be wrong but im sure Amit Shah is inclulded in this.





Again it's just political pandering or posturing. It takes away accusations of Pakistan not wanting peace. Whether they believe it or not, Pakistan is saying it.

Yes. Modi even gave a speech about Gilgit. But it's impossible. When you finally own your half, you start claiming the other half so the opposition will focus on preserving their half. Just politics. If he were to be very bold, he will probably start an insurgency in Pakistani Kashmir but India will have a lot to lose if that's the case.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Damn [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] must have word document where he puts all the lines against ISI and Pak army and use it all the time

Even I am not that fond of Pak army (THIER domestic interference ) but you take it a whole another level...

You are arguing with hardcore hindutvas. Even if there was no terror strike in India for a decade they will still talk about 1965 and 1971. Waste of time discussing with them.

 

[the Great Khan]

Damn [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] must have word document where he puts all the lines against ISI and Pak army and use it all the time

Even I am not that fond of Pak army (THIER domestic interference ) but you take it a whole another level...

ignore him. When challenged with substance and confronted about his silly claims he disappears into the troll hinduvta hole these guys live in..

They can say whatever they want, they can claim whatever they want. In the end we will always have chai ready for them.

Modi is simply singing to his new god amreekas tune. Its all a big game. pakistan on the other hand has simply stated its position quite clearly. We are moving ahead and dont really care for connectivity with india. If it happens great, if not , whatever. Our focus is on economic connectivity with central asia and china. Eurasia is the key and we want to be a part of that.

They can hold on to the the empires coat-tails..

 

[cricketjoshila]

Status quo will stay the same whether we like it or not...

Status quo suits India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Not what Joshilabhai and many in the BJP say. They say one day they will 'liberate' POK, we are still waiting for this momentus day to arrive.





You dont understand. Many in Bidens party are not fans of the BJP. Pakistan is just being smart showing them they are willing to make peace but its' the extremist government in India which is not. This reaffirms Bidens voters views. India are trying to act peaceful in return. Its only political pandering to the new administration.

When did i say this? Please quote the post.

India claims PoK just like China claims Taiwan. Neither is interested in starting an armed conflict to get the land and are happy with status quo.

But both countries regularly repeat their claims to the land.

Modi will risk his next term if he tries to revive the stale no good peace process. And Biden administration didnot bring Bjp to power.

 

[cricketjoshila]

ignore him. When challenged with substance and confronted about his silly claims he disappears into the troll hinduvta hole these guys live in..

They can say whatever they want, they can claim whatever they want. In the end we will always have chai ready for them.

Modi is simply singing to his new god amreekas tune. Its all a big game. pakistan on the other hand has simply stated its position quite clearly. We are moving ahead and dont really care for connectivity with india. If it happens great, if not , whatever. Our focus is on economic connectivity with central asia and china. Eurasia is the key and we want to be a part of that.

They can hold on to the the empires coat-tails..

India doesn't need pakistan for any economic growth. Pakistan is making all the noises. Modi govt hasn't started any peace process and doesn't seem interested in one. Too much being made out of a diplomatic nicety.

Its amusing how Pakistanis make all the noises and also draw all the conclusions.

Pakistan is literally holding onto china to get some dole out to survive, pretty evident who is holding onto coat tails.

 

[Napa]

Brilliant Brilliant Analysis.. Top quote.
I read through the links you provided and it kinda makes sense actually, that despite all the bravado from both sides, still there is some talk happening again. Lots of ways this can be screwed up, which i hope not.

It is my wild guess, but may be Americans know all this and they are pushing UAE Royals and Saudis to somehow get in between and broker something, before China becomes more powerful in Asia.
Lot of forces at play.
But China must understand one thing, if there is peace in South Asia, they will benefit the most economically out of India/Pakistan/China.

The problem with China is that there are factions within it that compete for power. The very strong economic lobby wants to be able to have trade relations and peace. The PLA is also strong, and wants aggression to remain relevant. The PLA clashed with the Indian Army in Galwan and Huawei got booted from India. Xi is of course trying to balance the different factions. Remains to be seen which faction determines policy.

 

[maverick85]

India doesn't need pakistan for any economic growth. Pakistan is making all the noises. Modi govt hasn't started any peace process and doesn't seem interested in one. Too much being made out of a diplomatic nicety.

Its amusing how Pakistanis make all the noises and also draw all the conclusions.

Pakistan is literally holding onto china to get some dole out to survive, pretty evident who is holding onto coat tails.

Are you for real? It's the Indians who do all the shrieking. Just watch your gutter level news channels and the crap spewed by your toady experts.

 

[Last Monetarist]

The problem with China is that there are factions within it that compete for power. The very strong economic lobby wants to be able to have trade relations and peace. The PLA is also strong, and wants aggression to remain relevant. The PLA clashed with the Indian Army in Galwan and Huawei got booted from India. Xi is of course trying to balance the different factions. Remains to be seen which faction determines policy.

Xi is practically emperor now, the changes to the constitution to remove term limits secured his long-term future. The aftermath of the pandemic and how China dealt with it has made him more popular than he had been at any time previously.

The way the west has slowly united against the CCP has reduced the influence of the economic hawks within the party and there is significant support to aggressively pursue expansionist interests as led by the chairman.

Unfortunately, my own impression is that this is a war that the west are well on their way to losing.

 

[Napa]

Xi is practically emperor now, the changes to the constitution to remove term limits secured his long-term future. The aftermath of the pandemic and how China dealt with it has made him more popular than he had been at any time previously.

The way the west has slowly united against the CCP has reduced the influence of the economic hawks within the party and there is significant support to aggressively pursue expansionist interests as led by the chairman.

Unfortunately, my own impression is that this is a war that the west are well on their way to losing.

You make interesting points which are probably correct. The West is too divided to launch any sort of response, or even notice what is happening. The entire last 4 years in the US it has been non-stop "Orange Man bad". There are many people who benefit from the divisions which are now very apparent in Western and in particular the US society. Such a fragmented society cannot take the necessary actions to protect itself.

To make matters worse, the US corporations love the short-term profits they are making in China, and lobby the US government to go easy on the Chinese.

One little warning to Xi, given that he lacks the legitimacy conferred by elections he should always be careful of the men with the guns.

 

[Last Monetarist]

One little warning to Xi, given that he lacks the legitimacy conferred by elections he should always be careful of the men with the guns.

Don't think that's a factor in China, the general public abhor the very concept of democracy and are conditioned to believe in the ultimate authority of the state from a very young age.

The essence of centralized control in Beijing involves keeping the peripherals in check, which is why they clamp down on the slightest hint of dissent in a hard-handed manner. The peripherals are largely kept in check through patronage and graft (i.e. turning a blind eye to corruption while provincial and SOE officials pilfer from the state).

It's in many cases a very simplistic structure, which is why they don't comprehend or appreciate issues of cultural identity and are inclined to pursuing the old CCP ways of 'enlightened education' in certain troublesome provinces on the western border.

 

[Napa]

Don't think that's a factor in China, the general public abhor the very concept of democracy and are conditioned to believe in the ultimate authority of the state from a very young age.

The essence of centralized control in Beijing involves keeping the peripherals in check, which is why they clamp down on the slightest hint of dissent in a hard-handed manner. The peripherals are largely kept in check through patronage and graft (i.e. turning a blind eye to corruption while provincial and SOE officials pilfer from the state).

It's in many cases a very simplistic structure, which is why they don't comprehend or appreciate issues of cultural identity and are inclined to pursuing the old CCP ways of 'enlightened education' in certain troublesome provinces on the western border.

Again good points. Communists tend to be believers in "realism" and "power" as they see it, and like religious people have a lot of confidence in what they do. So while mouthing niceties about peace and brotherhood, they are absolutely brutal when it comes to suppressing dissent. That is what history tells us, with a few exceptions like Gorbachev and the last days of the Soviet Union.

As for Xi, from your post it appears China is headed back to the days of the Emperors. It will survive in that form for a few hundred years and then collapse as it has done before.

 

[Bigboii]

China isn't courting any powerful allies unlike the west who seems to have most major countries on their side

Are they relying on quantity over quality?
If yes would that work

 

[Napa]

China isn't courting any powerful allies unlike the west who seems to have most major countries on their side

Are they relying on quantity over quality?
If yes would that work

China is supposed to be very good at the "Art of War", but I think they are really quite stupid. They have needlessly provoked India and made an even bigger enemy of them. What have they gained? Maybe 60 sq-km of frozen wasteland. India was trying to not get too involved in the US-China tussle, but now is firmly anti-China.

China could of course still win because American society is fragmented and the polarization is getting worse with time.

 

[Bigboii]

China is supposed to be very good at the "Art of War", but I think they are really quite stupid. They have needlessly provoked India and made an even bigger enemy of them. What have they gained? Maybe 60 sq-km of frozen wasteland. India was trying to not get too involved in the US-China tussle, but now is firmly anti-China.

China could of course still win because American society is fragmented and the polarization is getting worse with time.

They're suffering from bakht problem...

Who knows they probably got alarmed by the rivalry of India, China on western media and tried to make it a real one

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

FATF is not directly relevant to India-Pak peace but FATF issue a by product of having the whose who of FBI designated terrorists etc definitely is.

India says these terrorists are causing damage to its national Security , while the world may have not directly acknowledged Indias “accusation” but the fact that these stalwarts or world terrorism are found in Pakistan and the world acknowledges this is a start.

So while India’s gripe with Pakistan seems to be that active terrorism is creating headaches,youth being misguided, lives being lost (soldiers and civilians)

Pakistan’s biggest problem seems to be about Kashmir’s Muslim demography which in parlance of all the issues in the world, doesn’t seem to be the biggest burning issue outside of Pakistan’s army not even the common folk of Pakistan.

I wonder who needs to take the extra steps.

Of course the common folk in Pakistan care. If they did not care the Army or Pakistani politicians would not bring up Kashmir. Like they dont bring up Uighur, or Darfur, or Syria, etc.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Since Bajwa (unlawfully) extended his tenure by three years after saying that Pakistan was at a risk of Indian aggression, will Bajwa relinquish his post now that ceasefires and peace have been given a chance? This is a very pertinent question.

How was it unlawful when parliament approved amending the Army Act?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Its interesting why the army is looking for peace all of a sudden

even if a peace treaty is signed it wont be solving our current problems
whatever the problems Pak is facing is by its own strategies/policies and system of governance

don't see any immediate effects even if it happens

Its not all of a sudden. It goes back to Musharraf, the Army was willing to sell out the Kashmiris. The sooner they lose control of foreign policy the better it will be for Pakistan.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

It's not a negotiating ploy with China, the Army chief is on his way out and is trying to secure an exit strategy so that he isn't made an example of once he is out of office. There is an aspect of trying to protect oneself from the Sword of Damocles that hangs over the fate of each army chief in this country.

The point about the Chinese aligning with political parties is moot in Pakistan. When Imran Khan came to power, he tried to reverse some of the mess that we had got ourselves into by inviting the Saudis and Malaysians to invest in CPEC projects, but a quick call to the Army Chief from Beijing put paid to those ambitions. The Chinese have learnt from their experience in Sri Lanka and know intimately which side the bread needs to be buttered. They won't leave themselves vulnerable to the slings and arrows of political fortune in Pakistan, they deal directly with the real powerbrokers.

Pakistan has limited room to manoeuvre unfortunately and are cornered into this relationship with China, and I can't really see a way out in the long-run unless they are prepared to make significant concessions to India. The cold war between the west and the Chinese is only beginning and I expect the pressure on Pakistan will only mount.

That only applies to Army Chiefs who do coups. Nothing will happen to Bajwa. He does not need any protection.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Problem is trust. Is Modi willing to risk a Kargil? Or a Mumbai or Pathankot?

Right now Modi is in a place where he doesn't need to engage with Pakistan. He is comfortably placed and has the best chance of winning a third term.

I have my doubts if Pakistan Army can really afford to give concessions to India without jeopardizing their domestic position.

Pakistan Army's domestic position has nothing to do with Kashmir.

The only difference between Pakistani politicians and Pakistan Army on Kashmir, is that politicians wont send militants to Kashmir and would be willing to improve relations before the settlement of Kashmir issue.

No Pakistani politician is going to accept the LOC as border nor will they give one inch of JK to India. Most likely if Pakistani politicians were in charge it would be a frozen conflict, with Pakistan only providing diplomatic and moral support for the Kashmiris.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Don't be naive. "Follow the money" as they say. If you cannot understand that the Pak Army gets the best of everything in Pakistan, you have very poor perception. As the biggest beneficiary of having India as an external enemy, it should be obvious that it is the Pak Army that wants the hostility to continue.

So if Pakistani politicians were in charge of foreign policy you think Pakistan and India would no longer have a Kashmir dispute? The dispute exists before the Army ever took power. And it will continue regardless of who is in charge of Pakistan.

What can help reduce tensions is if Pakistan would no longer send militants to Kashmir. By doing that relations can improve, while the conflict will be frozen, and perhaps the next generation will be able to solve it.


And if India recognizes that Muslims and Hindus historical narratives are not reconcilable. Unlike Europeans or Iranians who were 100% pagan and then became 100% Christian and Muslim, the people of subcontinent (at least Northern part) had 2 sets of elites. And its the most natural thing for Hindus to look for inspiration in building their identity and choosing their cultural symbols from the Hindu elite, while Muslims look to do the same from the Muslim elite.

Your idea of a winner seems to be someone who will keep trying to wrest Kashmir from India. 74 years of failure means nothing to you, it will never happen because India is getting stronger. Your economy will keep rotting as ISI nurtures jihadis and you will keep feeling you are winning.

India is getting stronger but i doubt even 5% of Kashmiri Muslims would want to be part of India.

 

[saeedhk]

How was it unlawful when parliament approved amending the Army Act?

Who ordered it to be passed? Who twisted PML-N's MNAs to pass the bill?

 

[Mamoon]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">After India killed Art 370, we said it didn’t matter since we hadn’t accepted it in the first place. Then we protested & banned all trade & contacts until it was restored. Now we are ready to “normalise” without restoration of Article 370! Great Foreign Policy Strategy!</p>— Najam Sethi (@najamsethi) <a href="https://twitter.com/najamsethi/status/1377127150550052869?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 31, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

The biggest change, i believe now with Bajwa looking for peace is due to some economic realities.
Consider the fact that India’s aggregate GDP ($2.8 trillion) is now nearly 10 times larger than that of Pakistan ($280 billion)
Rawalpindi has been unable to leverage the Pakistan's geo-strategic location into concrete economic gains.
In the 90s, Pakistan was used by USA and other gulf nations as a net security provider. Now, with its unending requests for financial support, even gulf countries have started looking away, doing bare minimum.
But, they are now partners with India due to economic realities and access to bigger market.
The leading role of Pakistan in gulf has diminished as well, with only China on its side.

So, I guess it makes sense to give in to these realities. I hope India stays clear in its approach and unless we see a demonstrable action, We should steer clear of the current establishment.

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">After India killed Art 370, we said it didn’t matter since we hadn’t accepted it in the first place. Then we protested & banned all trade & contacts until it was restored. Now we are ready to “normalise” without restoration of Article 370! Great Foreign Policy Strategy!</p>— Najam Sethi (@najamsethi) <a href="https://twitter.com/najamsethi/status/1377127150550052869?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 31, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

You may want to check latest news on this.

 

[Mamoon]

You may want to check latest news on this.

It is too late now.

They buckled under the criticism of the opposition but the fragile stance of the government on Kashmir has been exposed.

Yet again, we have become a laughing stock in front of the whole world.

This government is only good at scoring own goals.

 

[Napa]

It is too late now.

They buckled under the criticism of the opposition but the fragile stance of the government on Kashmir has been exposed.

Yet again, we have become a laughing stock in front of the whole world.

This government is only good at scoring own goals.

A reversal can be re-reversed. Expect trade to be resumed in a few years if not a few months.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Former army chief’s brother Javed Iqbal Bajwa dismissed from PIA over fake degree

Jawaid Iqbal Bajwa, the Pakistan International Airlines’ deputy station manager in Birmingham, has been relieved of his duties due to the discovery of a fake intermediate certificate.

The Lahore Board declared his certificate “fraudulent”. Although a notice was issued to him, no response was received.

According to a PIA spokesperson, investigations confirmed that Jawaid’s intermediate certificate was fake. Sources stated that despite the evidence, he was “initially reluctant to resign.” He was “ultimately pressured” to submit his resignation through family intervention after the board’s findings.

On July 30, Iqbal received a show-cause notice from PIA’s finance manager in Birmingham. Notably, Jawaid is the eldest of five brothers of former army chief General (retd) Qamar Javed Bajwa. He began his career with the PIA in the Rawalpindi office in 1977.

Jawaid, who acquired British citizenship in the late 1980s, was over 73 years old at the time of his forced resignation from national flag carrier.

He “received significant leniency” despite the revelation of his fake degree, allowing him to retain all financial benefits from PIA. In contrast, other national flag carrier employees found with fake degrees faced termination and were subjected to legal action by the Federal Investigation Agency.

In his tenure, the former army chief, and his sister-in-law, Asma Tariq Bajwa, also served as the head of PIA’s Human Resources Department.


AAJ News

 

[Bewal Express]

Former army chief’s brother Javed Iqbal Bajwa dismissed from PIA over fake degree

Jawaid Iqbal Bajwa, the Pakistan International Airlines’ deputy station manager in Birmingham, has been relieved of his duties due to the discovery of a fake intermediate certificate.

The Lahore Board declared his certificate “fraudulent”. Although a notice was issued to him, no response was received.

According to a PIA spokesperson, investigations confirmed that Jawaid’s intermediate certificate was fake. Sources stated that despite the evidence, he was “initially reluctant to resign.” He was “ultimately pressured” to submit his resignation through family intervention after the board’s findings.

On July 30, Iqbal received a show-cause notice from PIA’s finance manager in Birmingham. Notably, Jawaid is the eldest of five brothers of former army chief General (retd) Qamar Javed Bajwa. He began his career with the PIA in the Rawalpindi office in 1977.

Jawaid, who acquired British citizenship in the late 1980s, was over 73 years old at the time of his forced resignation from national flag carrier.

He “received significant leniency” despite the revelation of his fake degree, allowing him to retain all financial benefits from PIA. In contrast, other national flag carrier employees found with fake degrees faced termination and were subjected to legal action by the Federal Investigation Agency.

In his tenure, the former army chief, and his sister-in-law, Asma Tariq Bajwa, also served as the head of PIA’s Human Resources Department.


AAJ News

It's all good. Every institution destroyed by these thugs.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Omar Ayub claims ex-army chief Bajwa proposed talks with TTP​

Opposition leader in the National Assembly, Omar Ayub, has alleged that negotiations with the banned Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) were proposed by former army chief general (Retd) Qamar Javed Bajwa during a National Security Committee (NSC) meeting, distancing the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) from the controversial decision.

Addressing a press conference, Ayub stated, "General Bajwa said every issue can be resolved through dialogue. It was discussed in the NSC that negotiations should be held with the TTP. This was not PTI's decision."

He criticised the state’s inability to curb fuel smuggling along the Afghan border, which he claimed amounts to Rs550 billion annually. "There isn’t a local official sitting on the border in Balochistan or KP. Who is responsible for this massive smuggling?" he asked.

Ayub dismissed the possibility of such revelations being widely covered by the media. "We live in the era of the internet, not the Pakistan Times of yesteryears. Information will find its way out, despite efforts to suppress it," he added.

The PTI stalwart also highlighted alleged financial neglect of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa by the federal government, asserting that the province has not received Rs1,500 billion owed to it. He claimed KP had contributed Rs3.3 billion to its health card scheme, while Islamabad contributed nothing substantial in return.

Ayub referenced past government claims from July 2022 that talks with the TTP were ongoing, emphasising that these discussions predated PTI’s government.

Referring to controversial events such as May 9 and November 26, Ayub demanded the establishment of a judicial commission for investigation. "Military courts are not the answer. Judicial officers should not be handed a single sheet of paper to read from and sentence individuals," he said.

He alleged that convictions of detainees, including activist Hassan Niazi, would ultimately be overturned by high courts.

Ayub criticised Interior Minister Mohsin Naqvi for the clearance of D-Chowk using “American and British firearms.” He accused authorities of firing live ammunition during the operation, highlighting an incident where a PTI supporter was shot in his shoulder, with the bullet exiting through his abdomen.

In a closing remark, Ayub said PTI Chairman Imran Khan is willing to reconcile for Pakistan’s greater good. "Our founding chairman told me recently that he forgives everyone for the sake of Pakistan," he revealed.

Ex-army chief Bajwa proposed talks with TTP: Omar Ayub | The Express Tribune

Ex army chief general Bajwa said every issue can be resolved through dialogue: PTI leader

tribune.com.pk

 

[Bewal Express]

Omar Ayub claims ex-army chief Bajwa proposed talks with TTP​

Opposition leader in the National Assembly, Omar Ayub, has alleged that negotiations with the banned Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) were proposed by former army chief general (Retd) Qamar Javed Bajwa during a National Security Committee (NSC) meeting, distancing the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) from the controversial decision.

Addressing a press conference, Ayub stated, "General Bajwa said every issue can be resolved through dialogue. It was discussed in the NSC that negotiations should be held with the TTP. This was not PTI's decision."

He criticised the state’s inability to curb fuel smuggling along the Afghan border, which he claimed amounts to Rs550 billion annually. "There isn’t a local official sitting on the border in Balochistan or KP. Who is responsible for this massive smuggling?" he asked.

Ayub dismissed the possibility of such revelations being widely covered by the media. "We live in the era of the internet, not the Pakistan Times of yesteryears. Information will find its way out, despite efforts to suppress it," he added.

The PTI stalwart also highlighted alleged financial neglect of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa by the federal government, asserting that the province has not received Rs1,500 billion owed to it. He claimed KP had contributed Rs3.3 billion to its health card scheme, while Islamabad contributed nothing substantial in return.

Ayub referenced past government claims from July 2022 that talks with the TTP were ongoing, emphasising that these discussions predated PTI’s government.

Referring to controversial events such as May 9 and November 26, Ayub demanded the establishment of a judicial commission for investigation. "Military courts are not the answer. Judicial officers should not be handed a single sheet of paper to read from and sentence individuals," he said.

He alleged that convictions of detainees, including activist Hassan Niazi, would ultimately be overturned by high courts.

Ayub criticised Interior Minister Mohsin Naqvi for the clearance of D-Chowk using “American and British firearms.” He accused authorities of firing live ammunition during the operation, highlighting an incident where a PTI supporter was shot in his shoulder, with the bullet exiting through his abdomen.

In a closing remark, Ayub said PTI Chairman Imran Khan is willing to reconcile for Pakistan’s greater good. "Our founding chairman told me recently that he forgives everyone for the sake of Pakistan," he revealed.

Ex-army chief Bajwa proposed talks with TTP: Omar Ayub | The Express Tribune

Ex army chief general Bajwa said every issue can be resolved through dialogue: PTI leader

tribune.com.pk

Not Just Omar Ayub. We have it on record from journalists and Nooras. Rana Sanaullah the qatil tweeted about it in June 2022. Bajwa was a disgrace and needs to be facing the noose for his coup

 

[FearlessRoar]

Apex court's CB references Bajwa's extension during military trials case​

The Supreme Court of Pakistan on Tuesday referenced former army chief General (Retd.) Qamar Javed Bajwa’s service extension while hearing a case on military trials for civilians, reigniting debate over past legal precedents.

A seven-member constitutional bench, led by Justice Aminuddin Khan, heard an intra-court appeal challenging military courts' jurisdiction over civilians.

During the proceedings, Bajwa’s tenure extension was cited as an example of legal changes driven by the court’s interventions.

Justice Naeem Akhtar Afghan remarked that the former army chief's extension had no legal backing at the time and was only formalised after parliamentary legislation, following the Supreme Court’s directives.

Justice Aminuddin Khan recalled the urgency surrounding the case, stating, “At that time, everyone sat together for a single notification. That was our state.”

The case saw lawyers questioning the legal standing of military trials for civilians.

Advocate Uzair Bhandari, representing former Prime Minister Imran Khan, argued that military courts lack trained judges and fail to ensure fair trials.

He noted that under military court proceedings, even the right to appeal is restricted to a mercy plea before the army chief.

Justice Hassan Azhar Rizvi challenged this view, pointing to video evidence of attacks on military installations, stating that security in such areas was under army control.

He suggested that military involvement justified trials under the army’s legal framework.

Justice Musarrat Hilali, addressing Bhandari, commented, “You argue one thing, but your client says something else.”

She referenced Khan’s past statements about negotiating only with those holding power.

Bhandari declined to comment on his client's remarks, maintaining his focus on the case’s legal aspects.

During arguments, references were made to India’s military trial system. Justice Aminuddin Khan noted that Indian law allows appeals to independent tribunals, questioning whether such rights were legislated by Parliament or mandated by the courts.

Justice Muhammad Ali Mazhar pointed to the case of Kulbhushan Jadhav, an Indian national tried under Pakistan’s military justice system.

He reminded the court that Pakistan granted Jadhav appeal rights only after the International Court of Justice's ruling and subsequent legislation.

Bhandari concluded his arguments, asserting that fundamental rights must be upheld in all legal proceedings.

The court adjourned the case until tomorrow, with lawyer Faisal Siddiqui set to present arguments in the following session.

SC's Constitutional Bench references Bajwa's extension during military trials case | The Express Tribune

Bajwa’s tenure extension was cited by court as an example of legal changes driven by the court’s interventions.

tribune.com.pk