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Pakistan cricket needs superstars

I think this time, Superstar will be made for Pakistan.

Debutant Amir was a superstar. Current top order of Pakistan are pretty simple and quite type boys ie. Babar Azam. There are two slots available for superstar, a genuine allrounder and WK (once Sarfarz retires). I don't think there will be another Afridi.
 
Needless to say superstar brings lots of revenues for the board and bring back fans to the stadium, some people don't care if team succeed or not, they just come to watch them.
 
I agree with that. Sarfaraz cannot change the course of a game with the sheer force of his personality the way Imran or Kohli could.

Question is: Why is our domestic cricket producing either Sarfaraz-type characters who are good only in certain situations or nice, fun loving characters?

This is not to be disrespectful to Sarfaraz and his achievements at all - which are considerable.

But where are the mavericks?

People might find this condescending, but cricket has become a poor man's game in Pakistan. Up until the 70s, a lot of Pakistani players came from posh families and were well-groomed. These players commanded respect and had a presence.

People like Sarfraz are very bad for the image of Pakistan cricket. I was in the U.S. during the Champions Trophy, and I was frankly embarrassed in front of my Indian friends when I saw Sarfraz and Kohli standing side by side and holding the trophy before the final. The contrast was day and night.

Look at the way Kohli carries himself, the vocabulary that he uses, the way he puts his thoughts into words and his fluency has enabled him to make a big impression. Moreover, Pakistan cricket also needs to become more secular as [MENTION=146956]ArsenalFC[/MENTION] pointed out.
 
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People might find this condescending, but cricket has become a poor man's game in Pakistan. Up until the 70s, a lot of Pakistani players came from posh families and were well-groomed. These players commanded respect and had a presence.

People like Sarfraz are very bad for the image of Pakistan cricket. I was in the U.S. during the Champions Trophy, and I was frankly embarrassed in front of my Indian friends when I saw Sarfraz and Kohli standing side by side and holding the trophy before the final. The contrast was day and night.

Look at the way Kohli carries himself, the vocabulary that he uses, the way he puts his thoughts into words and his fluency has enabled him to make a big impression. Moreover, Pakistan cricket also needs to become more secular as [MENTION=146956]ArsenalFC[/MENTION] pointed out.

Indeed (but I would say up until the 80s) there was a lot more swagger about those players in and off the field. They made their presence known whether it be in the face of the opposition with the odd sledge or two or inspiring young cricketers to follow their footsteps.

When you look at the current team 80%+ are bunch of timid kitten who look like they'll crap their pants whenever they're sledged ever so slightly. Unfortunately because Pakistan is such a low ranked side, oppositions like Australia, England, NZ and etc don't feel the need to intimidate these players.

As for religion is concerned the sujdas after half centuries only reinforces the small mentality of the side. It sounds very robotic when you hear Sarfraz copying his predecessors with their opening line "Thanks to my dear almighty Allah". Let me also make it clear you don't become a better Muslim by practising these acts alone (before the Islamic police jump in). Once I'll say it again Pakistan needs to undo the toxic influence Tableeghi Jamat has had on this side.

They may not be seeing these set of players or visiting their dressing rooms anymore but these players have inherited these practices from the last generation of Inzy's reign as skipper when he allowed these practices to become the norm.
 
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I get that people like to have opinions and I respect that. But some of the above arguments against our players tell us more about the posters themselves than the players they are trying to degrade.
 
Yes opposition like NZ and England who have been smashed by us through the cricket history
 
Thats a different point of view, if ever there was one. Kohli was ripped to shreds by the Indian contingent on this forum for his captaincy in South Africa. I didn't really watch it up close, but surely he wouldn't have alienated most of his fans here based on a mistake here and there?

Your tgoights on his results as captain since taking over from Dhoni?
 
People might find this condescending, but cricket has become a poor man's game in Pakistan. Up until the 70s, a lot of Pakistani players came from posh families and were well-groomed. These players commanded respect and had a presence.

People like Sarfraz are very bad for the image of Pakistan cricket. I was in the U.S. during the Champions Trophy, and I was frankly embarrassed in front of my Indian friends when I saw Sarfraz and Kohli standing side by side and holding the trophy before the final. The contrast was day and night.

Look at the way Kohli carries himself, the vocabulary that he uses, the way he puts his thoughts into words and his fluency has enabled him to make a big impression. Moreover, Pakistan cricket also needs to become more secular as [MENTION=146956]ArsenalFC[/MENTION] pointed out.

I will take the same line of thought but a different conclusion.


Please forgive my generalization.


The mix of players from Urban areas and particularly mid to upper income families used to be much higher in the past than now as the game has spread.

For sure, there were many negatives of that phenomenon - these players played less as a team (look at the massively gifted 70s Pakistan team that won nothing) and there was plenty of infighting and jockeying for power. There were also Karachi vs Lahore grouping (like in the 80s, Mumbai vs rest of India) which hurt merit and team cause.

However, when they got it right - like the 50s Kardar team or the 80s Imran team, they punched above their weight and took the game to the opposition.


Today, the game is widespread in Pakistan and players come from all over the country - and maybe more from lower income background. These players, while very talented, are also dependant on cricket being the primary income source for their families. They tend to be mire cautious. Also, social norms tend to be about respect for elders and seniors - as opposed to snarling at them to get their place at the table. These players are more diffident - perhaps less charismatic in the literal sense.

So over time, team has tended to be more homegenuous, diffident and biased toward groupthink.

Obviously this is a very broad brush and there are exceptions either way - such as Asad Shafiq and Waqar Younis for example.

Good news is that these things tend to even out with time - with a few wins, a bit more confidence and most importantly, when they find their superstar or talisman, they will shed their collective inhibitions and play more with the natural Pakistan flair.

That is why I believe, over time, once he has instilled the rigors of fitness, cohesion and loyalty, Mickey will need to be replaced by someone who prefers flair and encourages innovation. Kind of what Wenger did at Arsenal aftervthe dire 80s.

Until that happens, I am still holding out for our Talisman. We are due.
 
Your tgoights on his results as captain since taking over from Dhoni?
Don't follow Indian cricket too close, but from what I have heard he has done well in India. The real test begins now.

Had a shocker in the final of the CT. Looked dead and buried even before the first innings finished, hiding out on the boundary. Dhoni is probably three levels above Kohli in terms of captaincy, even now.
 
People like Sarfraz are very bad for the image of Pakistan cricket. I was in the U.S. during the Champions Trophy, and I was frankly embarrassed in front of my Indian friends when I saw Sarfraz and Kohli standing side by side and holding the trophy before the final. The contrast was day and night.

You are embarrased by a lot of things about our cricket team, the captain being one of them. Were you also embarrased by the end result of that match? Should we have defeated them with a bigger margin? Cricket is a sport, not a reality TV show. The Real Housewives of New Jersey might be better if you are expecting everyone to be dolled up and look all posh and pretty.
 
I really like Shadab, his confidence/ attitude is super star level but he is not well spoken or charismatic enough like Afridi so sadly he wont enjoy the same level of stardom.

Imad wasim has a bit more charisma and is well spoken but doesnt have that x-factor in his cricket.

No other potentials atm either.
 
You are embarrased by a lot of things about our cricket team, the captain being one of them. Were you also embarrased by the end result of that match? Should we have defeated them with a bigger margin? Cricket is a sport, not a reality TV show. The Real Housewives of New Jersey might be better if you are expecting everyone to be dolled up and look all posh and pretty.

I also find Sarfraz embarrassing. He's everything that the likes of Kohli and Imran are not. Has no charisma, doesn't know how to communicate properly or how to conduct himself for e.g. you would never see Virat Kohli from his balcony singing "mauka mauka". Worst of all he's a shoddy overweight batsman and wicket keeper.

If you're proud of Sarfraz to be your skipper then it points back to our small mentality as fans settling for mediocrity.

The only credit I'll give him is that he is superior to Misbah but that is hardly an achievement.
 
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I also find Sarfraz embarrassing. He's everything that the likes of Kohli and Imran are not. Has no charisma, doesn't know how to communicate properly or how to conduct himself for e.g. you would never see Virat Kohli from his balcony singing "mauka mauka". Worst of all he's a shoddy overweight batsman and wicket keeper.

If you're proud of Sarfraz to be your skipper then it points back to our small mentality as fans settling for mediocrity.

The only credit I'll give him is that he is superior to Misbah but that is hardly an achievement.

Ok let’s make Ahmed Shehzad captain.
 
Ok let’s make Ahmed Shehzad captain.

No because he is also an embarrassment as evident from his theatrical antics in WI last year.

At present there is no captaincy material because there are no distinct leaders in this team except perhaps Shadab in 2 - 3 years time once he's established himself as a batting all rounder, batting at 5 or 6.

The problem with PCB and Pakistan's seniority culture is that they would rather wait until he turns 30.

If you look at every other side they have at least 3 options and not afraid of grooming younger captains.
 
I really like Shadab, his confidence/ attitude is super star level but he is not well spoken or charismatic enough like Afridi so sadly he wont enjoy the same level of stardom.

Imad wasim has a bit more charisma and is well spoken but doesnt have that x-factor in his cricket.

No other potentials atm either.
Afridi as a youngster was not at all well spoken all these things he built over time was charismatic sure but I think even Shadab is but in a different way
 
Kohli is a very good captain. Look at the number of series consecutively he has won. Look at where his team stands in all rankings.

Even in SA, his team went toe to toe with opposition in alien conditions.

I do understand he makes some mistakes but to call him poor captain belies basic understanding of cricket.

His nepotism is what makes people dislike about him. Ofcourse there is room for huge improvement as a captain on the field. In ODIs he still depends on Dhoni.
 
Indeed (but I would say up until the 80s) there was a lot more swagger about those players in and off the field. They made their presence known whether it be in the face of the opposition with the odd sledge or two or inspiring young cricketers to follow their footsteps.

When you look at the current team 80%+ are bunch of timid kitten who look like they'll crap their pants whenever they're sledged ever so slightly. Unfortunately because Pakistan is such a low ranked side, oppositions like Australia, England, NZ and etc don't feel the need to intimidate these players.

As for religion is concerned the sujdas after half centuries only reinforces the small mentality of the side. It sounds very robotic when you hear Sarfraz copying his predecessors with their opening line "Thanks to my dear almighty Allah". Let me also make it clear you don't become a better Muslim by practising these acts alone (before the Islamic police jump in). Once I'll say it again Pakistan needs to undo the toxic influence Tableeghi Jamat has had on this side.

They may not be seeing these set of players or visiting their dressing rooms anymore but these players have inherited these practices from the last generation of Inzy's reign as skipper when he allowed these practices to become the norm.

Can't see how them becoming atheist or 'secular' would make them better players. For folks embarrassed at Sarfaraz before the match, how about how they looked after the match? Some folks here have a dislike of Islam and its symbols like the beard or sajda and use these to bash the team :facepalm:
 
So let's me guess some of our posters want our players not to do sujood because it's embarrassing. They want our players to start drinking,partying etc like the 70s. They are embarrassed because kholi and sarfraz were standing together. I wonder who was more embarrassed after the result. I was sarfraz because he doesn't have communication skills or Charisma. People have problem with inzi wearing shalwar kamees etc I would like to ask these posters if they have ever worn it or were they born angreez.

Our players can do what they like it's their lives but they shouldn't be doing things just to please the outside world. They play for Pakistan not for the rest of the world. They should be proud of their culture/nation and who they are.

If people want to hear fluent english etc then can watch TV cricket is a sport not a place for fluent English.

Sick of this ghulam mentality.
 
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Really need to listen to likes of Mickey Arthur about his views on Sarfaraz and what he means for his young team.

Small-minded people are unhappy that he doesnt know how to hold his knife and fork or he cant say nice words in English.

For me this team has superstars. They arent superstars for the few netsavvy types but for the millions in Pakistan. If they werent superstars, thousands would not show up to watch PSL final or the international games
 
People might find this condescending, but cricket has become a poor man's game in Pakistan. Up until the 70s, a lot of Pakistani players came from posh families and were well-groomed. These players commanded respect and had a presence.

People like Sarfraz are very bad for the image of Pakistan cricket. I was in the U.S. during the Champions Trophy, and I was frankly embarrassed in front of my Indian friends when I saw Sarfraz and Kohli standing side by side and holding the trophy before the final. The contrast was day and night.

Look at the way Kohli carries himself, the vocabulary that he uses, the way he puts his thoughts into words and his fluency has enabled him to make a big impression. Moreover, Pakistan cricket also needs to become more secular as [MENTION=146956]ArsenalFC[/MENTION] pointed out.

What a Sharamful post
 
Can't see how them becoming atheist or 'secular' would make them better players. For folks embarrassed at Sarfaraz before the match, how about how they looked after the match? Some folks here have a dislike of Islam and its symbols like the beard or sajda and use these to bash the team :facepalm:

Younis Khan and Misbah fought with Inzy to remove excessive religious influences in the dressing room but I guess that was because they have a dislike of Islam and its symbols right?

Moeen Ali and Hashim Amla are better role models than the likes of Sarfraz and Inzy because they know they don't need to prove to the masses about their piety and how they practice Islam in a cricket setting.

Don't know much of the people of Srinagar but you don't represent them well that is for sure.
 
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I also find Sarfraz embarrassing. He's everything that the likes of Kohli and Imran are not. Has no charisma, doesn't know how to communicate properly or how to conduct himself for e.g. you would never see Virat Kohli from his balcony singing "mauka mauka". Worst of all he's a shoddy overweight batsman and wicket keeper.

If you're proud of Sarfraz to be your skipper then it points back to our small mentality as fans settling for mediocrity.

The only credit I'll give him is that he is superior to Misbah but that is hardly an achievement.

The ones that are embarrassed of him are due to their own insecurities about how they want other people to view their country men rather than what Sarfraz is actually doing.

The only reason why people should be embarrassed of Sarfraz is because of his tail ender batting these days in tests.

Being embarrassed because he is not good looking, or doesnt speak good English, or doesn't meet the approval of your Western friends, etc... speaks about your own insecurity.
 
The ones that are embarrassed of him are due to their own insecurities about how they want other people to view their country men rather than what Sarfraz is actually doing.

The only reason why people should be embarrassed of Sarfraz is because of his tail ender batting these days in tests.

Being embarrassed because he is not good looking, or doesnt speak good English, or doesn't meet the approval of your Western friends, etc... speaks about your own insecurity.

perfectly put.
 
People might find this condescending, but cricket has become a poor man's game in Pakistan. Up until the 70s, a lot of Pakistani players came from posh families and were well-groomed. These players commanded respect and had a presence.

People like Sarfraz are very bad for the image of Pakistan cricket. I was in the U.S. during the Champions Trophy, and I was frankly embarrassed in front of my Indian friends when I saw Sarfraz and Kohli standing side by side and holding the trophy before the final. The contrast was day and night.

Look at the way Kohli carries himself, the vocabulary that he uses, the way he puts his thoughts into words and his fluency has enabled him to make a big impression. Moreover, Pakistan cricket also needs to become more secular as [MENTION=146956]ArsenalFC[/MENTION] pointed out.

The team really does need to become more secular like 90s and 80s team.
 
The team really does need to become more secular like 90s and 80s team.

Cricketers were much more talented in the 90s. There were some ATGs in those teams. And they were secular as you put it.

Yet there was still grouping, infighting, selfishness, etc...

This team has gelled so well, everyone are friends especially all of the kids that made their debut together.

Yes they are not as talented. But secularizing the team is not going to make them more talented. So what does that accomplish?
 
The ones that are embarrassed of him are due to their own insecurities about how they want other people to view their country men rather than what Sarfraz is actually doing.

The only reason why people should be embarrassed of Sarfraz is because of his tail ender batting these days in tests.

Being embarrassed because he is not good looking, or doesnt speak good English, or doesn't meet the approval of your Western friends, etc... speaks about your own insecurity.

It appears I have insecurity because I don't wish to settle for mediocrity - talk about speaking of small minds.
 
What exactly did we win with our superstars?

Lol at Afridi being considered a superstar. Seriously?
 
Younis Khan and Misbah fought with Inzy to remove excessive religious influences in the dressing room but I guess that was because they have a dislike of Islam and its symbols right?

Moeen Ali and Hashim Amla are better role models than the likes of Sarfraz and Inzy because they know they don't need to prove to the masses about their piety and how they practice Islam in a cricket setting.

Don't know much of the people of Srinagar but you don't represent them well that is for sure.
Misbah didn't even play under Inzi. Whats wrong with you? And neither did YK fight with Inzi to remove whatever you think he was trying to remove. Shoaib Akhtar was the problem child in those times.
 
It appears I have insecurity because I don't wish to settle for mediocrity - talk about speaking of small minds.

Mediocrity in what sense? His cricketing abilities? If that is your view that would be valid considering his batting form in recent times.

But if it is because he looks a certain way, or because he doesnt speak fluent English, doing sajdas, essentially how Pakistanis are portrayed to Westerners, etc... then it is about your insecurity. Would you rather zayn malik represent us, even though he is far removed from our culture? Only because it fits better with your Western friends?

So it really depends on your reasons for being embarrassed. If it is about his cricketing ability or captaincy, etc... then I apologize for characterizing your statements.
 
Misbah didn't even play under Inzi. Whats wrong with you? And neither did YK fight with Inzi to remove whatever you think he was trying to remove. Shoaib Akhtar was the problem child in those times.

As for Inzy and Misbah:
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/beta3/tft/article.php?issue=20130208&page=32

It's an open secret that Inzy was the one who orchestrated the demise of Younis Khan's captaincy with the team grouping scandal when he made Shoaib Malik take an oath that he would comply with Inzy's demands.
 
Mediocrity in what sense? His cricketing abilities? If that is your view that would be valid considering his batting form in recent times.

But if it is because he looks a certain way, or because he doesnt speak fluent English, doing sajdas, essentially how Pakistanis are portrayed to Westerners, etc... then it is about your insecurity. Would you rather zayn malik represent us, even though he is far removed from our culture? Only because it fits better with your Western friends?

So it really depends on your reasons for being embarrassed. If it is about his cricketing ability or captaincy, etc... then I apologize for characterizing your statements.

Just so we're clear I'm embarrassed by the following in re Sarfraz:

1. Batting
2. Wicket keeping
3. Lack of professionalism for e.g. poor work ethic, fitness levels and etc
 
There are none.

Someone who can change the course of a game on his own.

As we have seen in the last few years, if the game is going one way for Pakistan, it just continues that way. This team doesn't have game changers. One can make a case for Yasir, charitably, but only in helpful conditions.

An out and out pacer, a batsman the quality of Miandad/Inzamam, an allrounder who can smash a 100 and take 8 wickets in the game.

Someone who can take match situation, conditions, opposition out of the game.

Someone whom the opposition fear.

The last one I can think of was probably Shoaib at his peak. Or charitably, Inzi in non-Australian conditions. That is more than 10 years ago.

This team may have cohesion, team spirit, rigor, fitness - but star factor? now that's another thing.

Until that happens, forget about winning series overseas, or even those moments of madness that only Pakistan team can produce.

Anyone on the horizon?

On evidence this is a bit histrionic. There was no one in the team that England feared ahead of the first Test but they were still dissected. We could have won the England series if we had played half as well in the second Test as in the first. Scoring quickly was not the issue in the second Test, the issue was scoring, plain and simple.

They key is to field good players, plain and simple.

On evidence were are decent in bowling and crap in batting. Yasir Shah has a better SR than Shane Warne and is a bonafide match winner; so on recent evidence is Abbas, currently averaging 17 in Tests. Hasan may well fill the remaining gap.

Shadab has great potential as an allrounder. Faheem is decent.

It is in the batting that we look very mediocre. Azhar doesn't make an impact when he scores big, and fails to hold on to his wicket even when we just need him to block, like in the last England Test.

Babar has an awful record so far; the innings he played when he was injured was his best in some time, but is liable to just confuse the matter of his further selection even further.

Even in the UAE I believe we will struggle, because we have few players adept at playing spin. The Sri Lankan series may have been the first in a line of humiliations.
 
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Just so we're clear I'm embarrassed by the following in re Sarfraz:

1. Batting
2. Wicket keeping
3. Lack of professionalism for e.g. poor work ethic, fitness levels and etc

His wicket keeping is fine, better than more athletic Moin and far superior to Kamran's.
 
As for Inzy and Misbah:
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/beta3/tft/article.php?issue=20130208&page=32

It's an open secret that Inzy was the one who orchestrated the demise of Younis Khan's captaincy with the team grouping scandal when he made Shoaib Malik take an oath that he would comply with Inzy's demands.
Wah. Inzi wasn't even around when Misbah came back into the team. Shoaib Malik was captain and a new PCB heirarchy had taken hold, effectively sidelining Inzi and limiting him to a one match appearance against South Africa few weeks later. Nice masla though :))

YK's religious beliefs had nothing to do with what Inzi and others did. I'm not sure if you're too young or you are just playing dumb, but YK had severe issues with the senior players in the team which came to a head in the 09 NZ series where he dropped Yousuf and Razzaq from each match for non-performance. Beats me how you relate his ouster to Inzi going all maulvi commando.
 
If superstars mean fixers, politicians, oath takers, ball biters and selfish players than no thanks. I can accept simple star less squad but not this nonsense. Had enough of it.
 
It doesn't need superstars, it needs winners, mentally tough, technically good cricketers.

Very definition of superstar is match winner. You don’t get superstar just by looks(although that was the case with Afridi)...

Every sports need stars, Misbah and PCB killed star culture in last decade or so, now we are breeding tier 2 talent... After 2010 debacle, Pakistan is scared of handling players with personality... We settled on Shafiq and Azhar... This is not good for business, Misbah and Sharayar has created culture of timid players, badamni na hoy Jaya 🙄🙄🙄
 
Wah. Inzi wasn't even around when Misbah came back into the team. Shoaib Malik was captain and a new PCB heirarchy had taken hold, effectively sidelining Inzi and limiting him to a one match appearance against South Africa few weeks later. Nice masla though :))

YK's religious beliefs had nothing to do with what Inzi and others did. I'm not sure if you're too young or you are just playing dumb, but YK had severe issues with the senior players in the team which came to a head in the 09 NZ series where he dropped Yousuf and Razzaq from each match for non-performance. Beats me how you relate his ouster to Inzi going all maulvi commando.

I'm sorry but only of us is playing dumb and that is you. Can't believe you've never heard about Inzy's plot with Shoaib Malik in order to destabilise the team with groupings since he had a grudge with YK. If I'm not mistaken this something discussed on PP almost 10 years ago, so there is no excuse for your ignorance here given the fact you've been a member on here since 05.

If you don't know then don't hate.
 
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I'm sorry but only of us is playing dumb and that is you. Can't believe you've never heard about Inzy's plot with Shoaib Malik. If I'm not mistaken this something discussed on PP almost 10 years ago, so there is no excuse for your ignorance here given the fact you've been a member on here since 05.

If you don't know then don't hate.
Shoaib Malik? Are you re-writing history here? The only 'plot' that was hatched was against Younis Khan, since a few senior players went crying to Inzi when they were dropped for non-performance

Show me proof of what you are saying from credible sources, not some masala website.
 
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Just so we're clear I'm embarrassed by the following in re Sarfraz:

1. Batting
2. Wicket keeping
3. Lack of professionalism for e.g. poor work ethic, fitness levels and etc

Stop being a hypocrite and please mention about his charisma communication which you did before. This is cricket not some TV job where you need communication etc.
 
Players have good and bad series, just like the 'superstars' of the past did. In fact some of those superstars were found wanting when the team really needed them the most.

Those super stars delivered more often than not, cant say the same for Asad Shafiq in particular. These two players cannot even make the T-20 and ODI teams, which means they are not good enough all round players in comparison to past players and would not make most teams around the world.
 
People might find this condescending, but cricket has become a poor man's game in Pakistan. Up until the 70s, a lot of Pakistani players came from posh families and were well-groomed. These players commanded respect and had a presence.

People like Sarfraz are very bad for the image of Pakistan cricket. I was in the U.S. during the Champions Trophy, and I was frankly embarrassed in front of my Indian friends when I saw Sarfraz and Kohli standing side by side and holding the trophy before the final. The contrast was day and night.

Look at the way Kohli carries himself, the vocabulary that he uses, the way he puts his thoughts into words and his fluency has enabled him to make a big impression. Moreover, Pakistan cricket also needs to become more secular as [MENTION=146956]ArsenalFC[/MENTION] pointed out.

Dont normally agree with you but Sarfaraz's Nazimabad type accent and fast pitched talking is very embarrassing to hear on tv.
 
If Pak can replicate their Champions Trophy run from last year in the World Cup next year with Aamir, Sarfraz, Fakhar, Shadab,and Hasan playing major roles.

THEY WILL BECOME HUGE SUPERSTARS. /thread

Can someone really debate that?
 
Shoaib Malik? Are you re-writing history here? The only 'plot' that was hatched was against Younis Khan, since a few senior players went crying to Inzi when they were dropped for non-performance

Show me proof of what you are saying from credible sources, not some masala website.

Read what is said about Inzy on here especially the part what YK said about him: https://www.dawn.com/news/1018005

Yes I was obviously referring to the plot against YK involving S.Malik who were following Inzy's orders, that should be obvious with the context discussed here.

"took oath on the Quran that they will remain united against (the then captain) Younis Khan"
 
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Stop being a hypocrite and please mention about his charisma communication which you did before. This is cricket not some TV job where you need communication etc.

Haha RIP logic - every captain needs good communication skills whether it be within his side, to the media, random interviews etc.
 
Read what is said about Inzy on here especially the part what YK said about him: https://www.dawn.com/news/1018005

Yes I was obviously referring to the plot against YK involving S.Malik who were following Inzy's orders, that should be obvious with the context discussed here.

"took oath on the Quran that they will remain united against (the then captain) Younis Khan"
I watched quite a bit of cricket during that period, and there was nothing between YK and Inzi regarding the Tableeghi environment in the team at the time. Akhtar was the problem child and he had frequent run-ins with Inzi, which was very well documented at the time. YK was establishing himself as an international cricketer, and there was no way he would have taken on Inzi's regime. I don't remember there being much of a fuss from both YK or Razzaq as the article here states.

YK's ouster was firmly based on the fact that Mohammad Yousuf and Abdul Razzaq had been dropped from the side in two consecutive games against New Zealand. Yousuf was coming off a decent CT 2009, but had been patchy on the Lankan tour and the first match against New Zealand. Razzaq's performances had taken a hit aswell. There were reports about rifts within the team and YK not treating the seniors with respect. Its all well-documented to the point where its laughable you are somehow equating that oath to Inzi hating on YK for his religious beliefs.

Do remember it was Inzi who basically established YK as an international cricketer by playing him at number three, when there was an absolute outcry for 'Useless Khan' to never play for Pakistan again.
 
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I watched quite a bit of cricket during that period, and there was nothing between YK and Inzi regarding the Tableeghi environment in the team at the time. Akhtar was the problem child and he had frequent run-ins with Inzi, which was very well documented at the time. YK was establishing himself as an international cricketer, and there was no way he would have taken on Inzi's regime. I don't remember there being much of a fuss from both YK or Razzaq as the article here states.

YK's ouster was firmly based on the fact that Mohammad Yousuf and Abdul Razzaq had been dropped from the side in two consecutive games against New Zealand. Yousuf was coming off a decent CT 2009, but had been patchy on the Lankan tour and the first match against New Zealand. Razzaq's performances had taken a hit aswell. There were reports about rifts within the team and YK not treating the seniors with respect. Its all well-documented to the point where its laughable you are somehow equating that oath to Inzi hating on YK for his religious beliefs.

Do remember it was Inzi who basically established YK as an international cricketer by playing him at number three, when there was an absolute outcry for 'Useless Khan' to never play for Pakistan again.

Read this again from the Dawn link - it explicitly states YK had an interview with Pakistan English daily where he openly talks about his disapproval of Inzy's regime. You can deny it and claim you know better but this is coming from the horse's mouth.

Rather than making excuses with blaming YK and defending Inzy, it's about time you acknowledge that this gave Inzy motive.

"Soon, further news began to spill out that at least three cricketers were not happy with what became to be known as ‘Inzamam’s Raiwind regime.’

Two of these players were Abdul Razzaq and Younis Khan. Though Younis was already a very religious man (who even fasted during matches), he did not appreciate the fact that the team was being asked to openly exhibit its new-found religiosity.


In an interview that he gave to the Pakistan English daily, The News, in early 2009 when he became captain, he said: ‘What this (show of religiosity) did was that it made most players very introverted. They stopped going out and socialise; they also stopped interacting with other teams
.'"
 
Read this again from the Dawn link - it explicitly states YK had an interview with Pakistan English daily where he openly talks about his disapproval of Inzy's regime. You can deny it and claim you know better but this is coming from the horse's mouth.

Rather than making excuses with blaming YK and defending Inzy, it's about time you acknowledge that this gave Inzy motive.

"Soon, further news began to spill out that at least three cricketers were not happy with what became to be known as ‘Inzamam’s Raiwind regime.’

Two of these players were Abdul Razzaq and Younis Khan. Though Younis was already a very religious man (who even fasted during matches), he did not appreciate the fact that the team was being asked to openly exhibit its new-found religiosity.


In an interview that he gave to the Pakistan English daily, The News, in early 2009 when he became captain, he said: ‘What this (show of religiosity) did was that it made most players very introverted. They stopped going out and socialise; they also stopped interacting with other teams
.'"
How does this article prove Inzi had the oath-gate take place because YK said a few lines about his disapproval of that era? Razzaq also disapproved apparently, but he was present in Inzi's house for oath-gate. Shouldn't Inzi have not entertained Razzaq as well if that was the case? You might be young and not know what really happened, but I did watch cricket in that era and there was no such rift between Inzi and YK. Inzi (and Woolmer ofcourse) made YK the player he is for God's sake.

You really have no idea what oath-gate was about if you continue to have this agenda against Inzi. As I said, and a few of our senior members will testify to that, YK completely lost control of the dressing room because the senior culture reared its ugly head yet again. And where did I even blame YK?
 
Kohli is a very good captain. Look at the number of series consecutively he has won. Look at where his team stands in all rankings.

Even in SA, his team went toe to toe with opposition in alien conditions.

I do understand he makes some mistakes but to call him poor captain belies basic understanding of cricket.

Thats a different point of view, if ever there was one. Kohli was ripped to shreds by the Indian contingent on this forum for his captaincy in South Africa. I didn't really watch it up close, but surely he wouldn't have alienated most of his fans here based on a mistake here and there?

No one can accuse me of not supporting India, and I think Kohli is simply a fantastic batsman, and may become THE ATG batsman (after Bradman) by the end of his career. However his captaincy is ordinary. Team selection in the CT final and SA series has been horrendous, and Kohli gets part of the blame. Why drop Umesh Yadav from the team for the CT final after he had already thrashed Pakistani batsmen in the group game, and bring in spinners who were hammered by SL? Why drop BK in the second Test in SA? Kohli along with the coaches bear responsibility for these nonsensical selections which cost India dearly.

In the single ODI which India lost during the SA tour, Kohli looked pretty lost whereas he should have been actively supporting the bowlers with advice and encouragement.
 
I see one of my queries in this thread hasn't been answered yet - What good did the superstar culture under Wasim Akram as captain do for Pakistan cricket?

Do young 'uns here even know what went on in the 90s or are they just nostalgic based on YouTube videos?
 
How does this article prove Inzi had the oath-gate take place because YK said a few lines about his disapproval of that era? Razzaq also disapproved apparently, but he was present in Inzi's house for oath-gate. Shouldn't Inzi have not entertained Razzaq as well if that was the case? You might be young and not know what really happened, but I did watch cricket in that era and there was no such rift between Inzi and YK. Inzi (and Woolmer ofcourse) made YK the player he is for God's sake.

You really have no idea what oath-gate was about if you continue to have this agenda against Inzi. As I said, and a few of our senior members will testify to that, YK completely lost control of the dressing room because the senior culture reared its ugly head yet again. And where did I even blame YK?

This just proves you're oblivious to YK's interview to the newspaper. There is a difference between reckoning and knowing. In your case it is the former.

Also you need to work on your comprehension skills because did I say it proved anything? I merely said it gave Inzy motive because YK disgraced him and I'm sure this would have been reinforced assuming he would have let his feelings known with him.

I have been watching cricket for 18 years, so I know very well what was going on. The oath gate did happen, it's even on cricket websites for crying out loud.

I have no premediated agenda I'm just better informed and you don't like that. To back that up a good friend of mine has met Mushtaq Ahmed in person here in UK. Without revealing Mushy's statements he explained everything to him who then in turn conveyed what was said to me. So no offence, I have a far better grasp of what happened since I have a reliable source who has inside information.
 
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This just proves you're oblivious to YK's interview to the newspaper. There is a difference between reckoning and knowing. In your case it is the former.

Also you need to work on your comprehension skills because did I say it proved anything? I merely said it gave Inzy motive because YK disgraced him and I'm sure this would have been reinforced assuming he would have let his feelings known with him.

I have been watching cricket for 18 years, so I know very well what was going on. The oath gate did happen, it's even on cricket websites for crying out loud.

I have no premediated agenda I'm just better informed and you don't like that. To back that up a good friend of mine has met Mushtaq Ahmed in person here in UK. Without revealing Mushy's statements he explained everything to him who then in turn conveyed what was said to me. So no offence, I have a far better grasp of what happened since I have a reliable source who has inside information.
Your earlier post was a statement, where-in you said quite clearly YK and Misbah were against Inzi's 'religious' policies. I go by what I saw and read during that era, and there was absolutely no rift of such kind between Inzi and YK at the time. You (ironically) reckon Inzi engineered the oath-gate against YK because he was miffed about a few lines of disapproval about that era two years after Inzi had retired from international cricket. Sorry, but I don't believe this hogwash about a 'friend' or Mushtaq Ahmed telling your 'friend' so and so. We are going into the territory of he-said she-said, which frankly I have no interest in since I did watch cricket at the time and can form my own conclusions based on concrete reports. You conveniently left out the part about Razzaq, since it doesn't suit your narrative I guess.

The oath-gate was engineered by reasons known to pretty much every Pakistani who did watch cricket at the time. You can spin it whatever way you want to based on your agenda, but you cannot re-write history based on what your 'friend' told you :))
 
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I see one of my queries in this thread hasn't been answered yet - What good did the superstar culture under Wasim Akram as captain do for Pakistan cricket?

Do young 'uns here even know what went on in the 90s or are they just nostalgic based on YouTube videos?

It is baffling that people don’t seem to be able to comprehend that superstar culture doesn’t mean having players who are egoistic and corrupt.

In every era, cricket has had players who were massive superstars but they were also proper team men and worked extremely hard at their game.

However, I think it is not your fault because I think it is a difficult concept for you to comprehend, since Pakistan haven’t produced a superstar since Imran Khan who wasn’t corrupt or egoistic.

When people say that Pakistan cricket needs superstars, they don’t mean “Pakistani superstars” like Wasim, Afridi, Akhtar and the latest crook Amir.
 
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Haha RIP logic - every captain needs good communication skills whether it be within his side, to the media, random interviews etc.

Or he can speak Urdu or does he need to speak English in order to please you.
 
It is baffling that people don’t seem to be able to comprehend that superstar culture doesn’t mean having players who are egoistic and corrupt.

In every era, cricket has had players who were massive superstars but they were also proper team men and worked extremely hard at their game.

However, I think it is not your fault because I think it is a difficult concept for you to comprehend, since Pakistan haven’t produced a superstar since Imran Khan who wasn’t corrupt or egoistic.

When people say that Pakistan cricket needs superstars, they don’t mean “Pakistani superstars” like Wasim, Afridi, Akhtar and the latest crook Amir.

Can you name us some superstars please past ones.
 
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You are embarrased by a lot of things about our cricket team, the captain being one of them. Were you also embarrased by the end result of that match? Should we have defeated them with a bigger margin? Cricket is a sport, not a reality TV show. The Real Housewives of New Jersey might be better if you are expecting everyone to be dolled up and look all posh and pretty.

Cricket is a sport, and like all sports, it has superstars. Pakistan hasn’t been capable of producing superstars for far too long now, and we don’t have to pretend that it is okay.

Sarfraz got the better of Kohli on that day, but he is someone who will be forgotten quickly after retirement, while Kohli has built a dynasty and defined an era in the sport.

The failure of Pakistan to produce cricketers and personalities like him is quite damning. The belief that we don’t need them would have had some legs if we were a top class side, but as things stand, we are a mediocre team with no stars.

Our inability to produce a world class cricketer who knows how to carry himself, communications effectively and oozes confidence is a failure of our cricket setup.
 

Are you serious?

Take a look at the list of the greatest cricketers of the last 30 odd years, excluding the match-fixers.

We have lost the capability to produce players of that stature.
 
Are you serious?

Take a look at the list of the greatest cricketers of the last 30 odd years, excluding the match-fixers.

We have lost the capability to produce players of that stature.

Yes I am serious since wasim wasn't a superstar so I am struggling.
 
It is baffling that people don’t seem to be able to comprehend that superstar culture doesn’t mean having players who are egoistic and corrupt.

In every era, cricket has had players who were massive superstars but they were also proper team men and worked extremely hard at their game.

However, I think it is not your fault because I think it is a difficult concept for you to comprehend, since Pakistan haven’t produced a superstar since Imran Khan who wasn’t corrupt or egoistic.

When people say that Pakistan cricket needs superstars, they don’t mean “Pakistani superstars” like Wasim, Afridi, Akhtar and the latest crook Amir.
The thread title states Pakistan needs superstars, it naturally refers to the 90s era which had the best collection of 'superstars' in the history of Pakistan cricket.

Also, can you name me a few 'superstars' bigger than Wasim Akram? I won't be surprised if you already consider Virat Kohli a bigger superstar than Wasim Akram, considering you took his name alongside Imran Khan.
 
The thread title states Pakistan needs superstars, it naturally refers to the 90s era which had the best collection of 'superstars' in the history of Pakistan cricket.

Also, can you name me a few 'superstars' bigger than Wasim Akram? I won't be surprised if you already consider Virat Kohli a bigger superstar than Wasim Akram, considering you took his name alongside Imran Khan.

Kholi is a superstar but wasmin is not. Lol I have heard it all so a guy who wins you a world cup is not a superstar but a choker like kholi is one.
 
Kholi is a superstar but wasmin is not. Lol I have heard it all so a guy who wins you a world cup is not a superstar but a choker like kholi is one.

Be ready he will start talking about charisma , communication, looks etc in order to qualify for the status of a superstar.
 
The thread title states Pakistan needs superstars, it naturally refers to the 90s era which had the best collection of 'superstars' in the history of Pakistan cricket.

Also, can you name me a few 'superstars' bigger than Wasim Akram? I won't be surprised if you already consider Virat Kohli a bigger superstar than Wasim Akram, considering you took his name alongside Imran Khan.

Be ready he will start talking about charisma , communication, looks in order to qualify for the status of being a superstar.
 
Kholi is a superstar but wasmin is not. Lol I have heard it all so a guy who wins you a world cup is not a superstar but a choker like kholi is one.
To mention Wasim Akram on the same level as Afridi, Akhtar etc effectively kills whatever minuscule percentage of credibility he had.
 
To mention Wasim Akram on the same level as Afridi, Akhtar etc effectively kills whatever minuscule percentage of credibility he had.

You don't get it. You said the superstar culture under Wasim did not do any good for Pakistan cricket. That was because Wasim was a bad influence in the dressing room. He was clearly not sincere to the team's cause - he was a dodgy character and his rivalry with Waqar was not healthy.

I did not put Afridi and Akhtar at the same level as Wasim. I pointed them out because they were also superstars in their own ways. However, they were flawed superstars, and Pakistan does not need flawed superstars like them.

Pakistan definitely needs someone who can bowl like Wasim but doesn't come with his personality baggage.

As far the comparison with Kohli is concerned, they are both very similar players. Wasim is arguably the greatest ODI pacer of all time and a Test ATG. On the other hand, Kohli is very close to becoming the greatest ODI batsman of all time, and he will surely end up as a Test ATG as well.

Wasim so far has an edge because he won a World Cup Final for Pakistan, but Kohli still has two World Cups in him. If he wins one for India, he will probably surpass Wasim as a cricketer.

However, Kohli is very passionate about India winning and is 100% sincere to the team's cause. He won't sell-out like Wasim did on numerous occasions.
 
Mamoon were you embarrassed by Sarfaraz and Kholi holding Champions Trophy together for the picture as well? I have seen many ridiculous arguments from you but this one sure takes the cake.
 
Just do not get why people equate superstars with corruption. As if one has to accompany the other.

Culture in the team today is different. A superstar will thrive.
 
You don't get it. You said the superstar culture under Wasim did not do any good for Pakistan cricket. That was because Wasim was a bad influence in the dressing room. He was clearly not sincere to the team's cause - he was a dodgy character and his rivalry with Waqar was not healthy.

I did not put Afridi and Akhtar at the same level as Wasim. I pointed them out because they were also superstars in their own ways. However, they were flawed superstars, and Pakistan does not need flawed superstars like them.

Pakistan definitely needs someone who can bowl like Wasim but doesn't come with his personality baggage.

As far the comparison with Kohli is concerned, they are both very similar players. Wasim is arguably the greatest ODI pacer of all time and a Test ATG. On the other hand, Kohli is very close to becoming the greatest ODI batsman of all time, and he will surely end up as a Test ATG as well.

Wasim so far has an edge because he won a World Cup Final for Pakistan, but Kohli still has two World Cups in him. If he wins one for India, he will probably surpass Wasim as a cricketer.

However, Kohli is very passionate about India winning and is 100% sincere to the team's cause. He won't sell-out like Wasim did on numerous occasions.
I get it. This whole 'Pakistan needs a superstar' charade from you in this thread is just so you can lavishly praise Kohli and get your juices flowing.

A superstar is a superstar. You don't categorize superstars. Once you go into too much detail, what's acceptable for you won't be acceptable to another. So in that way pretty every superstar is flawed.
 
I get it. This whole 'Pakistan needs a superstar' charade from you in this thread is just so you can lavishly praise Kohli and get your juices flowing.

A superstar is a superstar. You don't categorize superstars. Once you go into too much detail, what's acceptable for you won't be acceptable to another. So in that way pretty every superstar is flawed.

No, you do categorize superstars. You claimed that the superstar culture in the 90's didn't do any good for Pakistan cricket, and I responded by explaining why that was the case.

Pakistan badly needs superstars - superstars who are also 100% committed to the team's cause. However, it might be an alien concept for Pakistani fans because we haven't had a superstar like that since Imran Khan.
 
Just do not get why people equate superstars with corruption. As if one has to accompany the other.

Culture in the team today is different. A superstar will thrive.

Not their fault. Pakistani fans haven't known superstars like that, so it is a difficult concept for them to comprehend.
 
No, you do categorize superstars. You claimed that the superstar culture in the 90's didn't do any good for Pakistan cricket, and I responded by explaining why that was the case.

Pakistan badly needs superstars - superstars who are also 100% committed to the team's cause. However, it might be an alien concept for Pakistani fans because we haven't had a superstar like that since Imran Khan.
You responded by telling me Wasim Akram wasn't a superstar according to YOUR criteria :))

Pakistan doesn't need superstars, it needs a strong core of players who want to win. I don't care if they can't speak English well, or drink tea the way it is appropriate to do so, I just want a collective unit out there who goes out there to give a 100% on the field. Let them be Fakhar Zaman, Hasan Ali, Shadab Khan, Babar Azam etc rather than a Wasim Akram, Abdul Razzaq or a Virat Kohli.
 
You responded by telling me Wasim Akram wasn't a superstar according to YOUR criteria :))

Pakistan doesn't need superstars, it needs a strong core of players who want to win. I don't care if they can't speak English well, or drink tea the way it is appropriate to do so, I just want a collective unit out there who goes out there to give a 100% on the field. Let them be Fakhar Zaman, Hasan Ali, Shadab Khan, Babar Azam etc rather than a Wasim Akram, Abdul Razzaq or a Virat Kohli.

Who are we kidding ? Every team would love to have a Wasim, or Razzaq or Kohli, over a combined trio of Fakhar, Babar and Hasan. The former can change the onset of a game 9 out of 10 times and win you a match where with the latter you can cite a short prayer and hope for the best that they somehow punch over their weight and carry you through the finish line. The fact that there's folks here praying that Fakhar, Babar, Hasan, come close enough to the formers level and not end up being a Wahab Riaz or Shehzad or Akmal should put this to rest.
 
You responded by telling me Wasim Akram wasn't a superstar according to YOUR criteria :))

Pakistan doesn't need superstars, it needs a strong core of players who want to win. I don't care if they can't speak English well, or drink tea the way it is appropriate to do so, I just want a collective unit out there who goes out there to give a 100% on the field. Let them be Fakhar Zaman, Hasan Ali, Shadab Khan, Babar Azam etc rather than a Wasim Akram, Abdul Razzaq or a Virat Kohli.

This is the height of delusion.

Not only are the latter 3 players superior (by a long long way) but you've assumed the likes of Fakhar, Hasan, Shadab, Babar and etc are harder working than Virat Kohli which I can safely is completely false.

Kohli has the strongest work ethic out of all them. The reason why he's the top batsman is equally because of his talent and hard work. You again seem to have no idea of something widely known in cricket. Kohli's gym, diet and practice routine habits has been publicised numerous occasions and it stands above the rest.

In addition it is an insult to compare Wasim and Kohli with Fakhar Zaman, Hasan Ali, Shadab Khan, Babar Azam who are mostly rookies at their infancy in international cricket.
 
Your earlier post was a statement, where-in you said quite clearly YK and Misbah were against Inzi's 'religious' policies. I go by what I saw and read during that era, and there was absolutely no rift of such kind between Inzi and YK at the time. You (ironically) reckon Inzi engineered the oath-gate against YK because he was miffed about a few lines of disapproval about that era two years after Inzi had retired from international cricket. Sorry, but I don't believe this hogwash about a 'friend' or Mushtaq Ahmed telling your 'friend' so and so. We are going into the territory of he-said she-said, which frankly I have no interest in since I did watch cricket at the time and can form my own conclusions based on concrete reports. You conveniently left out the part about Razzaq, since it doesn't suit your narrative I guess.

The oath-gate was engineered by reasons known to pretty much every Pakistani who did watch cricket at the time. You can spin it whatever way you want to based on your agenda, but you cannot re-write history based on what your 'friend' told you :))

Well you obviously didn't read enough because I've provided a source with his interview and what he said about Inzy was explicitly negative. You claimed YK and Inzy never had any problems and I've proved this to be the contrary, so cut out the "agenda" calling rubbish because like with Wasim and Kohli discussion you don't know what you're talking about which is funny because you were acting pretty arrogant - when you thought I was some youth who had only just starting watching cricket.
 
I also find Sarfraz embarrassing. He's everything that the likes of Kohli and Imran are not. Has no charisma, doesn't know how to communicate properly or how to conduct himself for e.g. you would never see Virat Kohli from his balcony singing "mauka mauka". Worst of all he's a shoddy overweight batsman and wicket keeper.

If you're proud of Sarfraz to be your skipper then it points back to our small mentality as fans settling for mediocrity.

The only credit I'll give him is that he is superior to Misbah but that is hardly an achievement.

Kohli has done worse things on field which is worse than Sarfraz singing a song at his home. There is no comparison between Kohli and Sarfraz as captains. Kohli has been tactically very poor. He favors his buddies and a big fan of TTFs. His poor captaincy and selection single handedly costed India the SA test series. India nearly lost home series to Australia and Rahane showed in just one game that he's not the best captain tactically even in his own team. He's a failed captain even in IPL where his team is yet to win an IPL despite fielding a strong team in every edition.

Steve Waugh had no charisma and had the personality of a cardboard. Yet, he is one of the greatest captains of all time.
 
Really need to listen to likes of Mickey Arthur about his views on Sarfaraz and what he means for his young team.

Small-minded people are unhappy that he doesnt know how to hold his knife and fork or he cant say nice words in English.

For me this team has superstars. They arent superstars for the few netsavvy types but for the millions in Pakistan. If they werent superstars, thousands would not show up to watch PSL final or the international games

Sarfaraz needs to step up - a leader has to lead by example. He is not. His horrendous shot in Lord's was a blot on an otherwise perfect performance. He did't cover himself in glory in the 2nd test either.

He is good for LOIs but for tests, he is on very thin ice - whatever he means to the young team.
 
Education cannot be the sole reason. If you look carefully Pakistan has produced quite a handful of educated cricketers in the last 10-15 years i.e. Misbah ul Haq, Salman Butt, Wahab Riaz, Umar Amin, Imad Wasim, Shan Masood e.t.c. but that didn't help the side when it came to chilling out. One guy disgraced the country beyond redemption, another guy transformed the entire side and a generation and left a legacy of timid chickens.

Wahab had the potential to exhibit swagger and there were times when he did but his performances were far to inconsistent. Imad Wasim unfortunately has not shown enough consistency or quality in his cricket.

The team needs a testaterone injection without a doubt.
 
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