Pakistan losing Test series to Bangladesh is a symptom of something deeper

[big_gamer007]

Good to see @Junaids back!

Reading through some of the comments on this thread it shows why Pakistan cricket is in the doldrums. @Junaids analysis was spot on and quite deep which most posters failed to understand, they only see what’s in front of them and lack brain cells to look into much much deeper systematic issues.

 

[big_gamer007]

Kohli kept a beard because it was a fashion statement. He didn’t establish this fashion. In terms of style, he is a trend follower not a trend setter.

Also, average looking men including Kohli and a million others keep beards to save themselves because their ordinary looks would be exposed without beards. You have to be good looking to pull off a clean shaven look.

Beard is like makeup for men. Only insecure men feel the need to keep one.

I thought the recent humiliation of Pakistan and success of Indian team will get you to return as a face.
The heel Mamoon isn’t really working out.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Kohli kept a beard because it was a fashion statement. He didn’t establish this fashion. In terms of style, he is a trend follower not a trend setter.

Also, average looking men including Kohli and a million others keep beards to save themselves because their ordinary looks would be exposed without beards. You have to be good looking to pull off a clean shaven look.

Beard is like makeup for men. Only insecure men feel the need to keep one.

I see. Is there a decline in the looks of Pakistanis cricketers as well? Don't remember so many beards in the 90's. Nowadays , except Naseem they all have beards.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Beard fashion/designs was established by British Pakistanis and then moved around the world from there.

Before that most people in the Subcontinent were clean shaven or had moustaches.

Beards were very common in India even in the 70's. Maybe not in Pakistan

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Beards were very common in India even in the 70's. Maybe not in Pakistan

Even these types of short stubbly beards?

I'm not sure about Pakistan in the 70s. Most of people my dad's age consider clean shaven or moustache to be professional whereas any type of stubble is seen as unclean. So I think these types of beards would have been rare in the 70s.

 

[indianpanacea]

The rot is because the merit is butchered.Hilarious and quite indication of rot that the record breaker of highest runs in domestic calendar year that too nearly 3 years ago,kamran ghulam is yet to make test debut.
Mr.consistent over the years usman salahuddin was made to debut in alien conditions 5-6 years ago and discarded.
The most promising batter in domestic Huraira is yet to make debut.
The most promising and technically correct batter Haider ali was tested in t20 and discarded .
it clearly seems that the cricket administration in Pakistan is either non-cricketers,or politicians who are power centric and don't allow professionals to work,or a bunch of jokers who are just interested in pays.
i would pakistan make two teams say prime minister XI and president XI and make them play 5 test match series at different 5 venues in pakistan with each pitch having different conditions and among this pool select the best 15 to represent pakistan.This way series will be competitive,and will refine the best talent.In the meanwhile let the domestic matches keep going and if some exceptional talent arises he must be promoted to either of the two.This process should continue for at least 3 seasons.
my president XI and Prime minister XI in batting order shall be.
President XI Prime minister XI
1)Saim Ayub 1)Imam ul haq
2)Abdullah shafig 2)M.Huraira
3)Shaan Masood 3)Haider Ali
4)Usman sallahuddin 4)Babar Azam
5)Saud Shakeel 5)sarfaraz ahmad
6)Rohail Nazir (wk) 6)M.Rizwan (wk)
7)Amir Jamal (allrounder) 7)Mubasir Khan (all rounder)
8)ramiz/usama(legspinner) 8)Shahdab (leg spinner)
9)zaffar gouhar(offspinner) 9)mehraan mumtaz
10)shaheen afridi 10)Naseem shah
11)khurram 11)Hamza
12)Husnain 12)Ahsanullah
13)Arafat Minhas 13)Arshad iqbal
14)salman agha 14)Abrar ahmad
15)qasim akram 15)Irfan khan

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Even these types of short stubbly beards?

I'm not sure about Pakistan in the 70s. Most of people my dad's age consider clean shaven or moustache to be professional whereas any type of stubble is seen as unclean. So I think these types of beards would have been rare in the 70s.

No not these types of beards at least where I'm from it wasn't uncommon just looking at old family photos etc.

 

[Dhakar Pola]

Pakistan is hitting another low in cricket. Losing to Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, USA and now losing at home against BANGLADESH.

How low can this team go??? Losing to UGANDA or KENYA???

Ireland is still in-between. invite them for a test

 

[Unleashed]

Pakistan's cricket would improve if they let a barber go with the team. His only job will be shave every player face before the match starts.

 

[mominsaigol]

Kohli kept a beard because it was a fashion statement. He didn’t establish this fashion. In terms of style, he is a trend follower not a trend setter.

Also, average looking men including Kohli and a million others keep beards to save themselves because their ordinary looks would be exposed without beards. You have to be good looking to pull off a clean shaven look.

Beard is like makeup for men. Only insecure men feel the need to keep one.

Only insecure men feel the need to keep one?

Everyone in my family liked me when I was shaved including my gf lol, I just keep a beard cause I'm way way way too lazy to shave daily, and prefer trimmer once a week?

I don't think the fashion mantra universally applies to everyone, Ik alot of men like myself who just keep a beard cause their way way too lazy to keep and maintain a clean shaven look.

As long as you don't grow your beard to Misbah ul Haq santa clause level, I don't think it's an issue.

Afridi looks alot better with a beard, so does shadab, so does babar, so does kohli. However some men look better without such as salman Khan, Sharukh Khan, Ronaldo, Messi etc.

It depends male to male otherwise many fashion models would universally shave it off.

 

[Junaids]

People are missing my point.

I’m arguing that top sportsmen need to be highly trained at thinking: at evaluating strengths and weaknesses. And religious fervour often replaces that professionalism with a belief that God will reward your piety.

Players like Abdullah Shafique, Shaheen Shah Afridi and Shadab Khan have succeeded away in Tests yet are failing due to elementary defects that they seem blind to.

Bowlers who can bowl 145K are playing meaningless white ball series then bowling at 128K in Tests.

Meanwhile the PCB keeps appointing retirement-age geriatrics who should be retiring as the new Test captain.

It’s insane. And it’s predictably failing.

 

[Rajdeep]

Kohli kept a beard because it was a fashion statement. He didn’t establish this fashion. In terms of style, he is a trend follower not a trend setter.

Also, average looking men including Kohli and a million others keep beards to save themselves because their ordinary looks would be exposed without beards. You have to be good looking to pull off a clean shaven look.

Beard is like makeup for men. Only insecure men feel the need to keep one.

Kohli was kind of a trendsetter though, at least in India with his beard and fitness in 2016. Prior to that clean shaved look used to be the style, let it be Bollywood or Cricketers, most used to be clean shaved. But when Kohli started spotting a beard and became an youth icon, everyone started copying him. Many people would not know but Kohli also spotted the beard for religious reasons as he is Sikh but it became a defacto trend in India back then.

However, I agree with you on the point that he is an average looking man like most Indians. I wish we would be as handosome as Pakistani's, who looks bit like Italians.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Ireland is still in-between. invite them for a test

Yes. I missed Ireland here.

 

[nish_mate]

Beard is like makeup for men. Only insecure men feel the need to keep one.

Wet Banker.

 

[Shafi]

What a dumb logic beard!!! Bangladeshi players bar Sakib are more religious and have beard than our players. Because they are religious they are more disciplined. Where our players are fun type whose like to party, gambling, living luxurious life doing nothing. When you live in disciplined life you bound to fall. Even Aussies/English players are more disciplined than us.

 

[Shafi]

What a stupid non sense thread, what beard/religion has got to do with downfall of Pakistan cricket -- these liberals just wait for every opportunity to take a shot at religion.

Pakistan cricket downfall is due to corrupt system -- We were doing well in the past just because of individual talent -

Corrupt system/ lazy generation/ super star mentality/ favouritism etc., -- these are the reasons and not beard.

Exactly!!! Most of the Bangladeshi players have beard compare to Pakistan. Plus Pakistan cricket run by Mafia with corruptions.

 

[sweep_shot]

People are missing my point.

I’m arguing that top sportsmen need to be highly trained at thinking: at evaluating strengths and weaknesses. And religious fervour often replaces that professionalism with a belief that God will reward your piety.

You can be both religious and successful at cricket. You don't have to ditch religiosity.

Hashim Amla was very religious and he ended up as one of South Africa's greatest batters of all time.

If someone is not good, he may struggle whether he is religious or not (and vice versa).

 

[Asif321]

Egoistic seniors e.g : Babar , Rizwan . Eagle are cancerous add to that golden boy Shani . Pity these young players they will never have support from such seniors who are just plain selfish .

 

[Shafi]

Lack of stamina is indeed an issue, but that’s more to do with conditioning rather than age fudging. You see, even if a player is biologically 29, pretends to be 23, still stamina shouldn’t be an issue - in fact I have seen players at 35 or 38 having much better stamina than PAK pacers in their official early 20s. Take Mo Shami of India, Anderson of England or Styen of SAF.

The real problem of age fudging is that it gives a false hope - it gives a wrong estimate of a players capability or celling. If a player of biological age of 23, pretends to be 17/18, means your expectation is that that player will develop/mature over the next 4-5 years further when actually that player has probably already reached his peak and end of learning curve.

For example, first time I saw Wasim Akram was January 1985, when he was 18 and at MCG took 5/21 against Australia - myself being a kid hardly had any clue but heard my cousins & uncles discussing that they haven’t seen someone teenager as good as that lanky kid & indeed he was.

Now, to be honest for 16/17/18 years old kids Naseem, Musa or Shaheen were indeed absolute phenomenal - you can hope for a Styen, Marshall & Akram in making & indeed can boast in social media for possessing one of the best ever pace attacks in history by next 5/6 years time….

Not so, if these teen age prodigies are born as already 5/6/7/8 years old kids at birth - and that’s exactly what’s happening.

Not really. Afghan players are on the top. Also there is not much difference of Age fudging in Pakistan & Bangladesh. Many of our BD friends hid 3-4 years because of less job opportunities (Max age 35 of government job). Situation is different in Western World.
Real problem in Pakistan is corruptions plus select test players based on PSL. How many FC Babar. Shaheen, Rizwan, Naseem played in last 4 years and what is the performance of Shafiq in test.

 

[Shafi]

You can be both religious and successful at cricket. You don't have to ditch religiosity.

Hashim Amla was very religious and he ended up as one of South Africa's greatest batters of all time.

If someone is not good, he may struggle whether he is religious or not (and vice versa).

Perfect answer. Being atheist will not make anyone talented. Most of this BD players bar Sakib are religious where our players live indiscipline life. You cannot be successful being indiscipline, have party night before, gambling.....

 

[CricketCartoons]

You can be both religious and successful at cricket. You don't have to ditch religiosity.

Hashim Amla was very religious and he ended up as one of South Africa's greatest batters of all time.

If someone is not good, he may struggle whether he is religious or not (and vice versa).

When someone asked the Prophet (s.a.w) that should he tie his camel and trust in Allah, or leave it untied and trust in Allah, then Prophet (s.a.w) said that tie your camel and trust in Allah.

 

[MMHS]

Not really. Afghan players are on the top. Also there is not much difference of Age fudging in Pakistan & Bangladesh. Many of our BD friends hid 3-4 years because of less job opportunities (Max age 35 of government job). Situation is different in Western World.
Real problem in Pakistan is corruptions plus select test players based on PSL. How many FC Babar. Shaheen, Rizwan, Naseem played in last 4 years and what is the performance of Shafiq in test.

You are entitled for your opinion, but situation is not the same. Yes, there is age fudging in Bangladesh as well, but that is factored in cricket selections as well, for that most BD players debut at a very “tender” age at every level - you’ll see most of the FC/List A players are debuted by official 16/17, plays 2-4 years at domestics and debut at international level at 19-21, … by 35 retired. What happens in PAK cricket, I guess I don’t need to explain. Besides most BD players come from some schooling - it’s not easy to fudge 4-8 years, yes, 1/2 years I know.

Afghans are talunted & they also follow the BD route - hence almost all the age level records are gradually moving from Pakistani ownership towards Afghan ownership.

 

[NishanKonar]

I

Even these types of short stubbly beards?

I'm not sure about Pakistan in the 70s. Most of people my dad's age consider clean shaven or moustache to be professional whereas any type of stubble is seen as unclean. So I think these types of beards would have been rare in the 70s.

In India it was moustache till the 90s. In the 2000s the clean shave look became fashionable. In the 2010s the bears became very popular

 

[NishanKonar]

Kohli was kind of a trendsetter though, at least in India with his beard and fitness in 2016. Prior to that clean shaved look used to be the style, let it be Bollywood or Cricketers, most used to be clean shaved. But when Kohli started spotting a beard and became an youth icon, everyone started copying him. Many people would not know but Kohli also spotted the beard for religious reasons as he is Sikh but it became a defacto trend in India back then.

However, I agree with you on the point that he is an average looking man like most Indians. I wish we would be as handosome as Pakistani's, who looks bit like Italians.

Virat Kohli is not Sikh. he is Hindu Khatri. But yes he did make the beard popular in India

 

[NishanKonar]

No not these types of beards at least where I'm from it wasn't uncommon just looking at old family photos etc.

Yes till 2000s either had a clean shaven face or a bushy beard ( like Navjot Sidhu )

The goatee style became popular thanks to Virat Kohli. Others like Rohit / Jadeja / Bumrah / Shami / Siraj / KL Rahul - all copied him

 

[Hitman]

@Junaids - Don't worry, Pakistan's next tour to Australia would be a blockbuster success. Much more than the Indian team can even dream of.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Those 11 nimcompoops might as well shave their heads and legs and wear heel insoles of 5 inches and would still lose 2-0 Bangladesh because of BCCI conspiracy.

 

[mominsaigol]

@Junaids - Don't worry, Pakistan's next tour to Australia would be a blockbuster success. Much more than the Indian team can even dream of.

They tour on Nov, and I can't wait to watch it as an aussie fan.

I will kill Australia if they even lose a single game. Like seriously how can you lose to this lot?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

They tour on Nov, and I can't wait to watch it as an aussie fan.

I will kill Australia if they even lose a single game. Like seriously how can you lose to this lot?

PAK are dangerous in ODIs. Especially after all the talent that's going to emerge from Champions Cup.

 

[mominsaigol]

PAK are dangerous in ODIs. Especially after all the talent that's going to emerge from Champions Cup.

If they beat Australia, then I'm renouncing my citizenship and going to USA.

No joke. I am seriously ending it with this country. Bozos down under?

But jokes aside how can they lose bro? They would usually cremeate pakistan just for fun even in the prime era's?

Unless Australia sends a c team which I doubt they will on their home turf and no other cricket in sight.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Beard fashion/designs was established by British Pakistanis and then moved around the world from there.

Before that most people in the Subcontinent were clean shaven or had moustaches.

what a load of B******t. Beards were very common in India even during 60s and 70s. My grandfather, who passed away in late 80s, had one all his adult life, so did all his younger brothers. My uncle had one, father had one, so did I during 90s. Just about everyone who attended college in 80s and 90s had one. Having beard was a socialist, activist, intellectual look which was predominant wave during 60s to 90s. Ramakrishna Hegde (former CM of Karnataka and socialist), Chandrashekar (farmer PM and socialist), Rajanikanth, Shankar nag, actors and social activists, are few among many who had had beard and were part of this trend. 60s to late 80s were peak of socialism, activism movement in India, which were predominately headed by public figures who had beards, and so did their followers.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

what a load of B******t. Beards were very common in India even during 60s and 70s. My grandfather, who passed away in late 80s, had one all his adult life, so did all his younger brothers. My uncle had one, father had one, so did I during 90s. Just about everyone who attended college in 80s and 90s had one. Having beard was a socialist, activist, intellectual look which was predominant wave during 60s to 90s. Ramakrishna Hegde (former CM of Karnataka and socialist), Chandrashekar (farmer PM and socialist), Rajanikanth, Shankar nag, actors and social activists, are few among many who had had beard and were part of this trend. 60s to late 80s were peak of socialism, activism movement in India, which were predominately headed by public figures who had beards, and so did their followers.

Ok I take it back. Kohli was influenced by commies, your uncle and Rajnikanth. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Even these types of short stubbly beards?

I'm not sure about Pakistan in the 70s. Most of people my dad's age consider clean shaven or moustache to be professional whereas any type of stubble is seen as unclean. So I think these types of beards would have been rare in the 70s.

yes, stubbly beards were THE look of social activists and intellectuals. Look at any prominent social activist, modern movie makers, indie actors, politicians, etc. of 60s to 90s they had that look. It was given that you will have a beard if you were leaned left during that time, and a significant portion of India leaned left, actual communism left. all my family members were part of the socialist movement which swept a large portion of India during that period. Every one of them had the same short stubbly beard. Heck, I grew one as soon as i could . most Indians had a type, pro-labor union, secularism, pro neutrality in world order, pacifism, anti capitalism, pro socialism which extended to pro communism in few states, etc. Everyone of those public leaders had beards. Stubbly beard was look of every young man fighting against the system, which every young man fantasized to be one.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Ok I take it back. Kohli was influenced by commies, your uncle and Rajnikanth. Thanks for the clarification.

Kohli was probably influenced by his PR team, I am happy to take the credit though. But it is funny Pakistanis claiming stubbly beard now .

 

[Nikhil_cric]

what a load of B******t. Beards were very common in India even during 60s and 70s. My grandfather, who passed away in late 80s, had one all his adult life, so did all his younger brothers. My uncle had one, father had one, so did I during 90s. Just about everyone who attended college in 80s and 90s had one. Having beard was a socialist, activist, intellectual look which was predominant wave during 60s to 90s. Ramakrishna Hegde (former CM of Karnataka and socialist), Chandrashekar (farmer PM and socialist), Rajanikanth, Shankar nag, actors and social activists, are few among many who had had beard and were part of this trend. 60s to late 80s were peak of socialism, activism movement in India, which were predominately headed by public figures who had beards, and so did their followers.

Yeah I think it was more common in maybe South India and Bengal.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Kohli was probably influenced by his PR team, I am happy to take the credit though. But it is funny Pakistanis claiming stubbly beard now .

Fair enough. I stand corrected

 

[TheSultan]

Technically, mentally and physically there are weak. It’s not that deep.

They look as harmless as SL of the 80s and BD of the 90s and early 2000s

 

[Farabi]

The rot is because the merit is butchered.Hilarious and quite indication of rot that the record breaker of highest runs in domestic calendar year that too nearly 3 years ago,kamran ghulam is yet to make test debut.
Mr.consistent over the years usman salahuddin was made to debut in alien conditions 5-6 years ago and discarded.
The most promising batter in domestic Huraira is yet to make debut.
The most promising and technically correct batter Haider ali was tested in t20 and discarded .
it clearly seems that the cricket administration in Pakistan is either non-cricketers,or politicians who are power centric and don't allow professionals to work,or a bunch of jokers who are just interested in pays.
i would pakistan make two teams say prime minister XI and president XI and make them play 5 test match series at different 5 venues in pakistan with each pitch having different conditions and among this pool select the best 15 to represent pakistan.This way series will be competitive,and will refine the best talent.In the meanwhile let the domestic matches keep going and if some exceptional talent arises he must be promoted to either of the two.This process should continue for at least 3 seasons.
my president XI and Prime minister XI in batting order shall be.
President XI Prime minister XI
1)Saim Ayub 1)Imam ul haq
2)Abdullah shafig 2)M.Huraira
3)Shaan Masood 3)Haider Ali
4)Usman sallahuddin 4)Babar Azam
5)Saud Shakeel 5)sarfaraz ahmad
6)Rohail Nazir (wk) 6)M.Rizwan (wk)
7)Amir Jamal (allrounder) 7)Mubasir Khan (all rounder)
8)ramiz/usama(legspinner) 8)Shahdab (leg spinner)
9)zaffar gouhar(offspinner) 9)mehraan mumtaz
10)shaheen afridi 10)Naseem shah
11)khurram 11)Hamza
12)Husnain 12)Ahsanullah
13)Arafat Minhas 13)Arshad iqbal
14)salman agha 14)Abrar ahmad
15)qasim akram 15)Irfan khan

I have heard this argument again and again that “team is not selected on Merit”. What??

No doubt Kamran Ghulam and Usman Salahuddin are performers in domestic. But as were/are the recent selections Abdullah Shafique, Saud Shakeel, Saim Ayub, even Shan Masood looked like Bradman in last domestic season and one of the top performers. At the end of the day, you need continuity in selection of players too and this was by and large the right batting unit.

The issue is not merit as much as it is lack of skill.

Also surprised you bring up Kamran Ghulam and not even put him in either of your 11s.

 

[Farabi]

The ongoing travails of the Pakistan Test team at home to Bangladesh are a precise echo of the two countries' economic development.....and that bodes badly for Pakistan. Because I think there is a common cause for the malaise.

Obviously in 1971 when Pakistan split in half, Bangladesh was the half with the poor cricketers and around 20% of the wealth.

We are watching what is happening in the cricket.

Meanwhile 170 million Bangladeshis live in a $455 billion economy, with per capita GDP of $2,646.
While 242 million Pakistanis live in a $338 billion economy, with per capita GDP of $1,461.

But I see fast bowlers who bowl 20K slower than their parents' generation did.

Spin bowlers who aren't just worse than Abdul Qadir or Intikhab Alam. They are worse than Iqbal Qasim or Tauseef Ahmed or even Mushtaq Muhammad.

I see batsmen who can't survive a session.

I see a skipper who is a lovely guy, but who - like Azhar Ali - was appointed captain at an age where all his contemporaries outside Asia have already retired.

Generally in most countries most sportsmen aren't terribly smart or educated. And cricket academies elsewhere exist to ensure that the likes of Dave Warner learn how to think more than that they learn how to play.

But in Pakistan there is no concept of the most talented players being national treasures which have to be nurtured.

Consider Shadab Khan. By the time Mickey Arthur was first fired in 2019, he was a decent but half-developed spinner, top fielder and exceptional lower-middle order batsman. He's incapable of learning that he needs to play a lot of red ball cricket to become a reliable bowler with any colour of ball.

Pakistan fans just go "he's made bad choices, that's his problem". What they don't see is that it's actually THEIR problem. They don't have another spinner who can bat at Number 7 or 8, so in the last Test they ended up with Shaheen Afridi batting at 8!

Pakistan did fine in the 1980s because Imran Khan could actually think and make sensible decisions. They did OK in the Wasim Akram eras because he could to a certain extent.

But now they languish because the best players are allowed to make dumb decisions and then get excluded.

The second Mickey Arthur era ended with this team at Number 2 in this round of the World Test Championship. At least he could think for his team.

But now? What a mess!

I think people latched on to your beard analogy.

But I get the essence of what you are saying.

I am surprised people on this forum and otherwise aren’t able to see how the lack of objective thinking is the main driving factor.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Beard is like makeup for men. Only insecure men feel the need to keep one.

This is next level drama, men are supposed to have beards, that was the norm even 1000 years from now too, having a beard is not a trend, its a norm.

50% of men in the world sport a beard or a moustache.

 

[riddu]

Should try new team for england tests


1. Kush dil shah (cuptaan)
2. Usman khan
3. Iftikhar
4. Abdullah shafique
5. Haider ali
6. Sarfaraz ahmed
7. Imad wasim
8. Dahani
9. Hasnsin
10. Mohammad ali
11. Abrar ahmed

 

[jnaveen1980]

Supply chain goes like this

School -> Age cricket (different groups) -> under-19 -> First class -? International If there is any disruption in supply chain anywhere you will feel the impact. Looking at under-19 world cup for the last 5 editions Pakistan did not throw any half decent world class bastman during this phase. There was a time India and Pakistan were trading punches at U19 level. Now the contest is not even close

This is 2018 India vs Pakistan under-19 world cup

IND19 vs PAK19 Cricket Scorecard, Semi-Final at Christchurch, January 30, 2018

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get India Under-19s vs Pakistan Under-19s Semi-Final, cricket scorecard, ICC U-19 WC 2017/18 dated January 30, 2018.

www.espncricinfo.com

India 272/9 (Gill 102)
Pakistan 69 all out

This is 2020 India vs Pakistan

IND19 vs PAK19 Cricket Scorecard, Semi-Final at Potchefstroom, February 04, 2020

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get India Under-19s vs Pakistan Under-19s Semi-Final, cricket scorecard, Under-19 World Cup 2019/20 dated February 04, 2020.

www.espncricinfo.com

Pakistan 172 all out
India 176/0 in 35 overs (Jaiswal 105 not out)

Gulf was massive even at Junior level. Same 2020 under-19 world cup, Bangladesh beat India in the final. Shoriful islam was part of that squad. Look where he is now.


During this phase India reached 5 world cup finals in a row at U19 level winning 2 of them.

 

[heddie19]

It is a symptom of Naqvi-Mistry partnership. Everything they have touched has been turned out to be a mess.

 

[dravidthewall]

Should try new team for england tests


1. Kush dil shah (cuptaan)
2. Usman khan
3. Iftikhar
4. Abdullah shafique
5. Haider ali
6. Sarfaraz ahmed
7. Imad wasim
8. Dahani
9. Hasnsin
10. Mohammad ali
11. Abrar ahmed

Why captain kush dil shah,when you have experienced ifthiqar in the team

 

[Farabi]

Supply chain goes like this

School -> Age cricket (different groups) -> under-19 -> First class -? International If there is any disruption in supply chain anywhere you will feel the impact. Looking at under-19 world cup for the last 5 editions Pakistan did not throw any half decent world class bastman during this phase. There was a time India and Pakistan were trading punches at U19 level. Now the contest is not even close

This is 2018 India vs Pakistan under-19 world cup

IND19 vs PAK19 Cricket Scorecard, Semi-Final at Christchurch, January 30, 2018

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get India Under-19s vs Pakistan Under-19s Semi-Final, cricket scorecard, ICC U-19 WC 2017/18 dated January 30, 2018.

www.espncricinfo.com

India 272/9 (Gill 102)
Pakistan 69 all out

This is 2020 India vs Pakistan

IND19 vs PAK19 Cricket Scorecard, Semi-Final at Potchefstroom, February 04, 2020

Live Cricket Scoreboard: Get India Under-19s vs Pakistan Under-19s Semi-Final, cricket scorecard, Under-19 World Cup 2019/20 dated February 04, 2020.

www.espncricinfo.com

Pakistan 172 all out
India 176/0 in 35 overs (Jaiswal 105 not out)

Gulf was massive even at Junior level. Same 2020 under-19 world cup, Bangladesh beat India in the final. Shoriful islam was part of that squad. Look where he is now.


During this phase India reached 5 world cup finals in a row at U19 level winning 2 of them.

Interesting input.
What do you think may be driving this?
I have heard anecdotally that the club cricket deteriorated. Could that be the main reason?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Cricket is a just a mirror image of the state of the country. Obsession with India instead of developing the economy and the country as a whole has been their biggest problem.

This is lost on the Pakistanis.

Which is why their country has been a mess since creation

And

Most probably will remain a mess till the end of the world..

Pakistan is a lost cause, have said this for over a decade.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Interesting input.
What do you think may be driving this?
I have heard anecdotally that the club cricket deteriorated. Could that be the main reason?

There is clear disruption in supply chain much like we see with West Indies. Many West Indian youngsters have taken liking to American sports which is far more lucrative. Despite If you dig deep you will be able to pin point where the problem is. Your point about club cricket deterioration may very well be part of the problem. On the contrary if an associate team expands their infrastructure their performance will grow like we see with USA. Right after the inception of MLC, USA made it through to next round. There was a time USA struggle to put together a XI. Now they are dropping even seasoned players as the competition has increased.

I would like to draw a paraellel with software industry in India. Landing an IT job in India is way harder because of the insane competition. You will be forced to constantly upskill yourself in order to stay above the competition. Any slacking there you will be left behind. Similarly Indian cricket has become extermely competitive. For instance Isan Kishan got dropped right after a 200 because he was playing in someone's place. Kuldeep yadav dropped right after MOM performance in Test agianst BD. So there is no option for prolonged failure unless you are some kind of superstar. When there is healthy competition skill level of players will grow as they will be forced to stand out.

I don't think Pakistan has such level of competition. Competition requires high degree of participation. When there is not enough participation you will get a bunch of players that are stagnated. Players are professionals now. They have access to best training, coaching. They constantly develop. Look at England. They are unrecognizable compared to how they were 20 years back. They are producing so many talented players.

India's domestic structure is very strong. It is getting better now. First we had IPL. Then BCCI came up with SMAT domestic T20 league between states. Now copying the IPL model each state has their own league where there is high level of competition. It gives exposure to more hidden talents. Pakistan needs to have competition at lower levels which is where you tap into so much talents.

 

[Savak]

There is clear disruption in supply chain much like we see with West Indies. Many West Indian youngsters have taken liking to American sports which is far more lucrative. Despite If you dig deep you will be able to pin point where the problem is. Your point about club cricket deterioration may very well be part of the problem. On the contrary if an associate team expands their infrastructure their performance will grow like we see with USA. Right after the inception of MLC, USA made it through to next round. There was a time USA struggle to put together a XI. Now they are dropping even seasoned players as the competition has increased.

I would like to draw a paraellel with software industry in India. Landing an IT job in India is way harder because of the insane competition. You will be forced to constantly upskill yourself in order to stay above the competition. Any slacking there you will be left behind. Similarly Indian cricket has become extermely competitive. For instance Isan Kishan got dropped right after a 200 because he was playing in someone's place. Kuldeep yadav dropped right after MOM performance in Test agianst BD. So there is no option for prolonged failure unless you are some kind of superstar. When there is healthy competition skill level of players will grow as they will be forced to stand out.

I don't think Pakistan has such level of competition. Competition requires high degree of participation. When there is not enough participation you will get a bunch of players that are stagnated. Players are professionals now. They have access to best training, coaching. They constantly develop. Look at England. They are unrecognizable compared to how they were 20 years back. They are producing so many talented players.

India's domestic structure is very strong. It is getting better now. First we had IPL. Then BCCI came up with SMAT domestic T20 league between states. Now copying the IPL model each state has their own league where there is high level of competition. It gives exposure to more hidden talents. Pakistan needs to have competition at lower levels which is where you tap into so much talents.

Best post so far.

Quality and competition in the domestic structure, system, defined pathways, that is what determines the end product. The Indian players are always on their toes to perform or perish and the pressure is real because of the amount of money at stake for them.

In Pakistan the lack of competition for positions and the monopoly senior players like Babar, Rizwan, Shaheen, Shadab, Rauf etc have enjoyed in the team thanks to Ramiz Raja has meant these players have badly stagnated in the past few years.

 

[Farabi]

There is clear disruption in supply chain much like we see with West Indies. Many West Indian youngsters have taken liking to American sports which is far more lucrative. Despite If you dig deep you will be able to pin point where the problem is. Your point about club cricket deterioration may very well be part of the problem. On the contrary if an associate team expands their infrastructure their performance will grow like we see with USA. Right after the inception of MLC, USA made it through to next round. There was a time USA struggle to put together a XI. Now they are dropping even seasoned players as the competition has increased.

I would like to draw a paraellel with software industry in India. Landing an IT job in India is way harder because of the insane competition. You will be forced to constantly upskill yourself in order to stay above the competition. Any slacking there you will be left behind. Similarly Indian cricket has become extermely competitive. For instance Isan Kishan got dropped right after a 200 because he was playing in someone's place. Kuldeep yadav dropped right after MOM performance in Test agianst BD. So there is no option for prolonged failure unless you are some kind of superstar. When there is healthy competition skill level of players will grow as they will be forced to stand out.

I don't think Pakistan has such level of competition. Competition requires high degree of participation. When there is not enough participation you will get a bunch of players that are stagnated. Players are professionals now. They have access to best training, coaching. They constantly develop. Look at England. They are unrecognizable compared to how they were 20 years back. They are producing so many talented players.

India's domestic structure is very strong. It is getting better now. First we had IPL. Then BCCI came up with SMAT domestic T20 league between states. Now copying the IPL model each state has their own league where there is high level of competition. It gives exposure to more hidden talents. Pakistan needs to have competition at lower levels which is where you tap into so much talents.

I think you’re talking at the top level, which we know that competition drives upskilling of players. But in order to have competition, you need players to be good enough. You need players who score 200s like Ishan, and you need other players to be even better right. So the question goes back to having pool of players.

If you looked at Pakistani domestic pool of players in isolation, there are so many players available. On PP, players will start naming Hurraira or Ghulam or somebody new should take the current guys place. But whoever comes in is not able to sustain himself for long. That is exactly what’s happening. It’s a round robin right now with no one able to cement their place.

This top level competition is a pipe dream unless feeder systems to the FC are feeding qualify that is already world class.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Best post so far.

Quality and competition in the domestic structure, system, defined pathways, that is what determines the end product. The Indian players are always on their toes to perform or perish and the pressure is real because of the amount of money at stake for them.

In Pakistan the lack of competition for positions and the monopoly senior players like Babar, Rizwan, Shaheen, Shadab, Rauf etc have enjoyed in the team thanks to Ramiz Raja has meant these players have badly stagnated in the past few years.

Signs were there. Example like Bringing back Amir, Imad wasim (out of retirement) . If you have neough depth you don't need to beg retired cricketers.

Then that Usman Khan fiasco. If your domestic is very strong you won't need to import a player from UAE regardless of how good he is. That is another indication.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I think you’re talking at the top level, which we know that competition drives upskilling of players. But in order to have competition, you need players to be good enough. You need players who score 200s like Ishan, and you need other players to be even better right. So the question goes back to having pool of players.

If you looked at Pakistani domestic pool of players in isolation, there are so many players available. On PP, players will start naming Hurraira or Ghulam or somebody new should take the current guys place. But whoever comes in is not able to sustain himself for long. That is exactly what’s happening. It’s a round robin right now with no one able to cement their place.

This top level competition is a pipe dream unless feeder systems to the FC are feeding qualify that is already world class.

It was working up to a point. So they probably have to examine why there is a dramatic decline. I can say T20 has done more harm to Pakistan than good. Back then we only had two formats. ODIs and Tests where you need to have bare minimum fitness and decent temperament. T20 introduces whole bunch of mediocre cricketers with mediocre fitness and mediocre technique, temperament. PCB excessively showed interest in playing T20 compared to ODIs.

 

[Farabi]

It was working up to a point. So they probably have to examine why there is a dramatic decline. I can say T20 has done more harm to Pakistan than good. Back then we only had two formats. ODIs and Tests where you need to have bare minimum fitness and decent temperament. T20 introduces whole bunch of mediocre cricketers with mediocre fitness and mediocre technique, temperament. PCB excessively showed interest in playing T20 compared to ODIs.

This is definitely part of the problem.
The other issue is too much chopping and changing.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Wasim Akram while speaking to an international media:

"It's a huge setback and our cricket is at a crossroads."

"For a former player and captain, and a lover of the game, I was left embarrassed at the way they have lost from good positions. I simply don't get it."

"We are losing consistently on home turf and that says a lot about the quality of our cricket."

Meanwhile Basit Ali also told while speaking to same media outlet:

"People have started to hate cricket."

"Bangladesh has shown us the mirror of what we are at international level."

"It's a cliche that wins and losses are part of the game, but this is a seismic shock."

 

[ghalib kichlu]

Losing to the USA and Bangladesh just shows that there's not enough resources in pak cricket
Bangladesh have Allan donald, Andre Adams and mushtaq ahmed
And usa had Stuart law

 

[Hitman]

Wasim Akram while speaking to an international media:

"It's a huge setback and our cricket is at a crossroads."

"For a former player and captain, and a lover of the game, I was left embarrassed at the way they have lost from good positions. I simply don't get it."

"We are losing consistently on home turf and that says a lot about the quality of our cricket."

Meanwhile Basit Ali also told while speaking to same media outlet:

"People have started to hate cricket."

"Bangladesh has shown us the mirror of what we are at international level."

"It's a cliche that wins and losses are part of the game, but this is a seismic shock."

Something that my now deceased Jetha (mother's older sister's husband) always said is never to lose patience.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Pakistan fans are not disheartened that their team has slipped to 8th in Test cricket rankings for the first time since 1965. Instead, they are deeply saddened that Babar Azam has fallen out of the top 10 list of Test batters after a long stint. This kind of narrow mindset won't take Pakistan far.

 

[mominsaigol]

Pakistan fans are not disheartened that their team has slipped to 8th in Test cricket rankings for the first time since 1965. Instead, they are deeply saddened that Babar Azam has fallen out of the top 10 list of Test batters after a long stint. This kind of narrow mindset won't take Pakistan far.

It's because of the ramiz raja culture.

He thinks that just Football in recent times has ronaldo as the face of football then having Babar as the face of PK is what caused the decline due to his own poor form.

They completely forget that he was a passenger in ct 2017 and the most crucial game for pakistan in wc 2023 vs NZ was not won by him.

 

[cricketAXEpert]

Pakistan fans are not disheartened that their team has slipped to 8th in Test cricket rankings for the first time since 1965. Instead, they are deeply saddened that Babar Azam has fallen out of the top 10 list of Test batters after a long stint. This kind of narrow mindset won't take Pakistan far.

It is just the Meme makers, as Babar is a meme worthy phenomena. It reminds of 90s when India as a team was not doing too well and Indian fans kept talking about Sachin Tendulkar's records.

 

[cricketAXEpert]

It was working up to a point. So they probably have to examine why there is a dramatic decline. I can say T20 has done more harm to Pakistan than good. Back then we only had two formats. ODIs and Tests where you need to have bare minimum fitness and decent temperament. T20 introduces whole bunch of mediocre cricketers with mediocre fitness and mediocre technique, temperament. PCB excessively showed interest in playing T20 compared to ODIs.

Absolutely, T20s and PSL are harming Pakistan cricket. PSL is wrongly being used as an entry criteria for Selection in all Formats. Look at Pakistan's Current side. Mohammad Ali is in the Test side because of his PSL performance (He didn't impress much in tests otherwise). Saim Ayub is in the side ahead of Muhammad Huraira (Saim's PSL 2023 performances are being given more weight than Huraria's over all Stellar first class performance ) .

 

[sweep_shot]

Absolutely, T20s and PSL are harming Pakistan cricket. PSL is wrongly being used as an entry criteria for Selection in all Formats. Look at Pakistan's Current side. Mohammad Ali is in the Test side because of his PSL performance (He didn't impress much in tests otherwise). Saim Ayub is in the side ahead of Muhammad Huraira (Saim's PSL 2023 performances are being given more weight than Huraria's over all Stellar first class performance ) .

Agree.

Pakistan should make their pacers play more FC cricket. Also, make spicy pitches in order to make bowlers more fine-tuned.

 

[mesmerizer85]

The downfall of PCT started right after Sarfaraz was removed from all formats, without developing a proper captain under him and handing over reins in a soft manner. It was done abruptly hence the very team structure/team vision collapsed.

 

[BouncerGuy]

The downfall of PCT started right after Sarfaraz was removed from all formats, without developing a proper captain under him and handing over reins in a soft manner. It was done abruptly hence the very team structure/team vision collapsed.

You are right. That decision was made in a hurry and has backfired badly. PCB has a real bad habit of stripping anyone from captaincy any day and making anybody a captain who is not even in the team like in the case of Azhar Ali or Shan Masood.

There is no grooming of the future captain. The Bangladesh series exposed the so-called intelligent people and their decisions badly.

 

[sweep_shot]

You are right. That decision was made in a hurry and has backfired badly. PCB has a real bad habit of stripping anyone from captaincy any day and making anybody a captain who is not even in the team like in the case of Azhar Ali or Shan Masood.

There is no grooming of the future captain. The Bangladesh series exposed the so-called intelligent people and their decisions badly.

Too much chopping and changing. It is counterproductive.

 

[Buffet]

Pakistan fans are not disheartened that their team has slipped to 8th in Test cricket rankings for the first time since 1965. Instead, they are deeply saddened that Babar Azam has fallen out of the top 10 list of Test batters after a long stint. This kind of narrow mindset won't take Pakistan far.

Bold part shouldn't be an issue. Even ATG bastmen go out of top 10 some time and Babar is not really at that level.

Part before that should be the 100 times bigger issue. Any decent team don't go to rank 8 in test. It's the one format where going to 8 should raise a huge concern.

 

[SM1989]

The downfall of PCT started right after Sarfaraz was removed from all formats, without developing a proper captain under him and handing over reins in a soft manner. It was done abruptly hence the very team structure/team vision collapsed.

Sarfraz lost Pakistan their first series against on UAE soil against Sri Lanka. He even lost test series to NZ in UAE by losing matches from winning positions. And lets not forget the humiliating 3-0 whitewash to a Sri Lanka C team on home soil which led to him getting axed as captain.

 

[BouncerGuy]

The priorities are not good here. PCB's priority is to keep overhyped and prachi players in the team. They do not care about winning anything. It was PCB's home series. they should have dominated it and yet they got whitewashed. your coach is saying that pitch did not behaved like we wanted or supposed that it will. I mean, what????

If these guys cannot read the pitch well, what is their purpose then???