Pakistan needs to accept its evolving culture be it influenced by Arabs or Indians and not force it

[Badsha]

I see a lot of people trying to force themselves away from "Arab influences" on Pakistan. I don't want to go into each and everyone of them but the truth is, Pakistani culture like all culture is by nature evolving, developing and a mix of other cultures.

Trying to make a culture "pure" by running away from the Arab influences seems very childish and meaningless. Urdu itself is a language that borrows words from so many others.

Pakistani culture has a mix of Indian, Turk, Persian and Arab cultures so why are people so **** about not saying "Ramadan" or "Khuda-Hafiz" instead of "Allah-hafiz".

Cultures should be allowed to shape organically.

 

[Slog]

Lol what brought this about?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Apart from the language/words you mentioned, what other Arab culture in Pakistan are you referring to?

 

[Pakistanian]

Or even from the West. In fact I'm all for the Westernization/Americanization of Pakistan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Or even from the West. In fact I'm all for the Westernization/Americanization of Pakistan.

Such as?

 

[Third_Umpire]

Organic influences on culture happen naturally and are unavoidable. However, arabization of Pakistan is a deliberate attempt to drag us away from our roots. Why should Pakistanis say RamaDan, when the letter Z is available in our language, and it's how we have pronounced Ramzan for centuries? This hardcore turn to the religious right is also Saudi influenced, it was never part of our society even as recently as 15-20 years ago.

We have nothing to do with Arabs, and quite frankly let's keep it that way.

 

[Pakpak]

Organic influences on culture happen naturally and are unavoidable. However, arabization of Pakistan is a deliberate attempt to drag us away from our roots. Why should Pakistanis say RamaDan, when the letter Z is available in our language, and it's how we have pronounced Ramzan for centuries? This hardcore turn to the religious right is also Saudi influenced, it was never part of our society even as recently as 15-20 years ago.

We have nothing to do with Arabs, and quite frankly let's keep it that way.

Ramadan, Suhoor, Adhan are some examples. Our language is beautiful, I don't know why its being twisted.

 

[blackanhyellow]

most countries are going through a westernization.

More and more Indians, Pakistans, and Bangladeshis are wearing t-shirts and jeans.

Listening to hip hop or other english music, watching hollywood.

When was the last time someone here had a fully urdu conversation with someone with out mixing in atleast a few english words?

Westernization is okay as long as it doesn't completely over power your own culture.

Arabization is okay too except for the extremism that has the potential to come a long with it.

Overall, its impossible to have a pure culture, no country does other than maybe North Korea.

 

[Pakpak]

most countries are going through a westernization.

More and more Indians, Pakistans, and Bangladeshis are wearing t-shirts and jeans.

Listening to hip hop or other english music, watching hollywood.

When was the last time someone here had a fully urdu conversation with someone with out mixing in atleast a few english words?

Westernization is okay as long as it doesn't completely over power your own culture.

Arabization is okay too except for the extremism that has the potential to come a long with it.

Overall, its impossible to have a pure culture, no country does other than maybe North Korea.

T-shirt and jeans are universal now, from Africa to Europe to Asia. You even go to the Congo and men will be wearing t-shirts and jeans/pants.

 

[blackanhyellow]

T-shirt and jeans are universal now, from Africa to Europe to Asia. You even go to the Congo and men will be wearing t-shirts and jeans/pants.

Yes, that is western culture expanding to every corner of the world

 

[enkidu_]

Ibn Khaldun already said it centuries ago : when a civilization is decaying, its peoples imitate the conquerors (whether physical or psychic), in his case it was the Muslims of Al Andalus wearing the same clothes as the Christian conquerors). In the same way, Alvaro of Cordoba, writing in the 9th century, way before Ibn Khaldun, said the exact opposite, when Islamic civilization was dominant : the Christians of Al Andalus were mastering Arabic better than Latin ("for every one who writes in Latin, you have 1000 writing in Arabic"), they read Muslim poets, philosophers, etc more than Christian ones, they behaved like them, talked like them, etc and the Christians of Al Andalus thus would be known for half a millennium as "Mozarabs", the "Arabized".

Nowadays the West is dominant, even though the cultural soft power might shift towards China in the next few decades as per analysts. But the only way to retain a cultural hygiene is to be yourself civilizationally secure.

In the case of Pak, what should be celebrated is Persian culture with Arabic/Turkic elements, while "Indian influences" (mainly Hindi words in fact) should be militantly fought.

 

[Pakpak]

Yes, that is western culture expanding to every corner of the world

Not really, its not Western culture anymore. Its universal which was my point. Same as burgers, pizzas are universal now.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Ibn Khaldun already said it centuries ago : when a civilization is decaying, its peoples imitate the conquerors (whether physical or psychic), in his case it was the Muslims of Al Andalus wearing the same clothes as the Christian conquerors). In the same way, Alvaro of Cordoba, writing in the 9th century, way before Ibn Khaldun, said the exact opposite, when Islamic civilization was dominant : the Christians of Al Andalus were mastering Arabic better than Latin ("for every one who writes in Latin, you have 1000 writing in Arabic"), they read Muslim poets, philosophers, etc more than Christian ones, they behaved like them, talked like them, etc and the Christians of Al Andalus thus would be known for half a millennium as "Mozarabs", the "Arabized".

Nowadays the West is dominant, even though the cultural soft power might shift towards China in the next few decades as per analysts. But the only way to retain a cultural hygiene is to be yourself civilizationally secure.

In the case of Pak, what should be celebrated is Persian culture with Arabic/Turkic elements, while "Indian influences" (mainly Hindi words in fact) should be militantly fought.

I totally agree, nobody mentions the Indian/Hindu culture which arguably is far more entrenched within Pakistani society than other cultures. The weddings is one example, they go on for days sometimes weeks with all sorts of idiotic traditions.

It's up to those living in Pakistani to decide but Im not sure how this can be fought now?

As for western culture the best parts such as the welfare state, importance of education, healthcare, law and order are also Islamic principles. Others such as clothes are more international now.

 

[enkidu_]

I totally agree, nobody mentions the Indian/Hindu culture which arguably is far more entrenched within Pakistani society than other cultures. The weddings is one example, they go on for days sometimes weeks with all sorts of idiotic traditions.

It's up to those living in Pakistani to decide but Im not sure how this can be fought now?

As for western culture the best parts such as the welfare state, importance of education, healthcare, law and order are also Islamic principles. Others such as clothes are more international now.

Yes there's no more real Hindu cultural influence apart from such folkloric stuff, I guess genuine Islamic education on a popular level is the only solution for these remaining societal ills.

And indeed, it's true for the West, or I'd say classical European civilization (I don't see any positive influence from the US which are its own). Many of its key features were also inspired by Islam : the idea of welfare state by Umar (r) and his Bayt ul mal, centuries before Bismarck/Beveridge ; the disciple of imam Abu Hanifa (r), al-Shaybani (r), cementing the idea of "international law" centuries before Francisco de Vitoria/Hugo Grotius, etc

 

[Saeed]

This is only an issue on internet hyped up by people who think their culture is superior to everything Aay rabs. Pakistanis are proud of their particular ethnic culture, at least the ones I hang out with are.

 

[Pakistanian]

Ibn Khaldun already said it centuries ago : when a civilization is decaying, its peoples imitate the conquerors (whether physical or psychic), in his case it was the Muslims of Al Andalus wearing the same clothes as the Christian conquerors). In the same way, Alvaro of Cordoba, writing in the 9th century, way before Ibn Khaldun, said the exact opposite, when Islamic civilization was dominant : the Christians of Al Andalus were mastering Arabic better than Latin ("for every one who writes in Latin, you have 1000 writing in Arabic"), they read Muslim poets, philosophers, etc more than Christian ones, they behaved like them, talked like them, etc and the Christians of Al Andalus thus would be known for half a millennium as "Mozarabs", the "Arabized".

Nowadays the West is dominant, even though the cultural soft power might shift towards China in the next few decades as per analysts. But the only way to retain a cultural hygiene is to be yourself civilizationally secure.

In the case of Pak, what should be celebrated is Persian culture with Arabic/Turkic elements, while "Indian influences" (mainly Hindi words in fact) should be militantly fought.

You could say the same about the Arabization of the Maghreb and Balad al Shams.

 

[enkidu_]

You could say the same about the Arabization of the Maghreb and Balad al Shams.

Yes, there are many instances, for instance the Copts of Egypt who resisted to cultural imperialism from the Romans-Byzantines for centuries, yet adapted Arabic in literally a matter of decades (we have preserved Arabic language papyri written by Egyptian Copts from the early period of Islam, when paper wasn't still widespread), while keeping Coptic as the liturgical language.

But I took the example of Al-Andalus because that's where you have the stark contrast in popular behavior when it comes to the dominance of the European or Islamic civilization.

 

[Badsha]

Ramadan, Suhoor, Adhan are some examples. Our language is beautiful, I don't know why its being twisted.

Languages are "twisted" and that is how thy evolve and develop. Please learn a little bit about Urdu and its roots. You would struggle to define what "pure" Urdu is.

Organic influences on culture happen naturally and are unavoidable. However, arabization of Pakistan is a deliberate attempt to drag us away from our roots. Why should Pakistanis say RamaDan, when the letter Z is available in our language, and it's how we have pronounced Ramzan for centuries? This hardcore turn to the religious right is also Saudi influenced, it was never part of our society even as recently as 15-20 years ago.

We have nothing to do with Arabs, and quite frankly let's keep it that way.

We have nothing to do with English either, so should we remove ALL British influences from our culture? Let's get rid of dhoodh patti

 

[Badsha]

Ibn Khaldun already said it centuries ago : when a civilization is decaying, its peoples imitate the conquerors (whether physical or psychic), in his case it was the Muslims of Al Andalus wearing the same clothes as the Christian conquerors). In the same way, Alvaro of Cordoba, writing in the 9th century, way before Ibn Khaldun, said the exact opposite, when Islamic civilization was dominant : the Christians of Al Andalus were mastering Arabic better than Latin ("for every one who writes in Latin, you have 1000 writing in Arabic"), they read Muslim poets, philosophers, etc more than Christian ones, they behaved like them, talked like them, etc and the Christians of Al Andalus thus would be known for half a millennium as "Mozarabs", the "Arabized".

Nowadays the West is dominant, even though the cultural soft power might shift towards China in the next few decades as per analysts. But the only way to retain a cultural hygiene is to be yourself civilizationally secure.

In the case of Pak, what should be celebrated is Persian culture with Arabic/Turkic elements, while "Indian influences" (mainly Hindi words in fact) should be militantly fought.

That is nothing but suppression. A beautiful culture does not develop like that. It's give and take. India are our neighbors. You bet we are influenced by Indians and Hinduism and there is nothing you can do or should do to change that.

 

[Syed1]

The French and English fought each other for centuries but both languages are heavily influenced by each other and regularly incorporate words from the other. For example french does not have a word for the weekend so they call it le weekend. Go figure.


No culture is superior or inferior to other. That is only in the minds of insecure or narcissistic people. I see quite a few posters throw around the word that they belong to some Rajput martial race, I'd see how martial their race is if we meet face to face.

 

[Pakpak]

Languages are "twisted" and that is how thy evolve and develop. Please learn a little bit about Urdu and its roots. You would struggle to define what "pure" Urdu is.




We have nothing to do with English either, so should we remove ALL British influences from our culture? Let's get rid of dhoodh patti

There is no reason for our language to be twisted now. Nor is there any reason for words like Ramadan, Suhoor or whatever when they have their perfect Urdu counter parts. We do not border any Arab nation. It would feel as stupid as British people suddenly starting to use American slang or American English tomorrow.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Not really, its not Western culture anymore. Its universal which was my point. Same as burgers, pizzas are universal now.

The reason why its universal is because it expanded every where...

But you cant deny its origin. It is western culture.

 

[blackanhyellow]

There is no reason for our language to be twisted now. Nor is there any reason for words like Ramadan, Suhoor or whatever when they have their perfect Urdu counter parts. We do not border any Arab nation. It would feel as stupid as British people suddenly starting to use American slang or American English tomorrow.

I only ever hear ramadan and suhoor from Pakistani expats.

Pakistanis in Pakistan generally dont say that. Atleast not in my experience.

 

[Rafa]

Eventually Western Culture will become the most dominant culture in Pakistan.

 

[blackanhyellow]

That is nothing but suppression. A beautiful culture does not develop like that. It's give and take. India are our neighbors. You bet we are influenced by Indians and Hinduism and there is nothing you can do or should do to change that.

These days though, as far as an average Pakistani is concerned the old traditions are shared between Pakistan and India. So they are not Indian traditions per say. Pakistanis always practiced those traditions, they were not imported from India, as Pakistan used to be part of India.

However that is traditional culture. You cant consider it as influencing Pakistan as certain aspects of it belong to Pakistan historically.

What we see these days is the importing of Bollywood culture. That is the culture we do not share with India. That is the culture being imported.

 

[Badsha]

There is no reason for our language to be twisted now. Nor is there any reason for words like Ramadan, Suhoor or whatever when they have their perfect Urdu counter parts. We do not border any Arab nation. It would feel as stupid as British people suddenly starting to use American slang or American English tomorrow.

English has words borrowed from Hindi and Urdu. Americans use slang developed from various ethnic groups.

Do you know "kaar" (car) is an Urdu Word? Do you "Double Roti" is an urdu word? These are official urdu words.

Now you can argue that Kaar should be gaadi only and Double Roti should be "Angrezi Naan" but Naan is farsi too.

So what you need to understand is there's nothing wrong with Saying Ramadhan or Suhoor as they are perfectly valid words. If you want to be super technical, Ramazan was probably mispronounced when the original word was translated. I don't have a problem with Ramazan or Ramadhan but you need let a language evolve the way it dos.

 

[Pakpak]

English has words borrowed from Hindi and Urdu. Americans use slang developed from various ethnic groups.

Do you know "kaar" (car) is an Urdu Word? Do you "Double Roti" is an urdu word? These are official urdu words.

Now you can argue that Kaar should be gaadi only and Double Roti should be "Angrezi Naan" but Naan is farsi too.

So what you need to understand is there's nothing wrong with Saying Ramadhan or Suhoor as they are perfectly valid words. If you want to be super technical, Ramazan was probably mispronounced when the original word was translated. I don't have a problem with Ramazan or Ramadhan but you need let a language evolve the way it dos.

Car is not another word. Its called a gaari. Double roti is called that because there is no Urdu substitute for it that was ever used.

Ramadan has an urdu word. Called Ramzan. Adhan has an Urdu work: Azaan.

You can go ahead and accept the entire Arab language for all I care, some of us won't. I will make sure my kids knows Urdu as it is.

 

[Pakpak]

The reason why its universal is because it expanded every where...

But you cant deny its origin. It is western culture.

Pants and shirts have been worn for centuries by many different cultures. Its become standard clothing and in no way is evidence of a country being westernised. Otherwise Africa, still stuck in the 18th century, would be westernised by your definiton.

 

[Pakpak]

I only ever hear ramadan and suhoor from Pakistani expats.

Pakistanis in Pakistan generally dont say that. Atleast not in my experience.

That's a fair point.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Pants and shirts have been worn for centuries by many different cultures. Its become standard clothing and in no way is evidence of a country being westernised. Otherwise Africa, still stuck in the 18th century, would be westernised by your definiton.

Ehat is the origin of the pant shirt outfit? You're getting a bit confused methinks

 

[Hermoine Green]

Sometimes i feel, Pakistanis who are living abroad have lots of issues with Pakistan's culture, and now language too.

Sickening.

 

[Hermoine Green]

Car is not another word. Its called a gaari. Double roti is called that because there is no Urdu substitute for it that was ever used.

Ramadan has an urdu word. Called Ramzan. Adhan has an Urdu work: Azaan.

You can go ahead and accept the entire Arab language for all I care, some of us won't. I will make sure my kids knows Urdu as it is.

Best line in this whole thread. Thank you brother.

 

[troodon]

Ibn Khaldun already said it centuries ago : when a civilization is decaying, its peoples imitate the conquerors (whether physical or psychic), in his case it was the Muslims of Al Andalus wearing the same clothes as the Christian conquerors). In the same way, Alvaro of Cordoba, writing in the 9th century, way before Ibn Khaldun, said the exact opposite, when Islamic civilization was dominant : the Christians of Al Andalus were mastering Arabic better than Latin ("for every one who writes in Latin, you have 1000 writing in Arabic"), they read Muslim poets, philosophers, etc more than Christian ones, they behaved like them, talked like them, etc and the Christians of Al Andalus thus would be known for half a millennium as "Mozarabs", the "Arabized".

Nowadays the West is dominant, even though the cultural soft power might shift towards China in the next few decades as per analysts. But the only way to retain a cultural hygiene is to be yourself civilizationally secure.

In the case of Pak, what should be celebrated is Persian culture with Arabic/Turkic elements, while "Indian influences" (mainly Hindi words in fact) should be militantly fought.

What a ridiculous statement.

You are ready to accept Persian, Arabic and Turkic, but hate the Sanskrit words in Hindi which your forefathers have used for centuries before Islam came.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ibn Khaldun already said it centuries ago : when a civilization is decaying, its peoples imitate the conquerors (whether physical or psychic), in his case it was the Muslims of Al Andalus wearing the same clothes as the Christian conquerors). In the same way, Alvaro of Cordoba, writing in the 9th century, way before Ibn Khaldun, said the exact opposite, when Islamic civilization was dominant : the Christians of Al Andalus were mastering Arabic better than Latin ("for every one who writes in Latin, you have 1000 writing in Arabic"), they read Muslim poets, philosophers, etc more than Christian ones, they behaved like them, talked like them, etc and the Christians of Al Andalus thus would be known for half a millennium as "Mozarabs", the "Arabized".

Nowadays the West is dominant, even though the cultural soft power might shift towards China in the next few decades as per analysts. But the only way to retain a cultural hygiene is to be yourself civilizationally secure.

In the case of Pak, what should be celebrated is Persian culture with Arabic/Turkic elements, while "Indian influences" (mainly Hindi words in fact) should be militantly fought.

There is no need to fight Indian influence as Indian culture is itself imitating western culture and will be unrecognisable in the future. I read a very good article about this from a British Indian actress in the Sunday Times, I will post the relevant quotes later to back that up.

 

[Musakhel]

Pakistani establishment has done well in purging the pagan Hindu culture and promoting Mughal and lately Arab culture, however this is a slow process but we should see it's fruit in our lifetime God willing.

 

[enkidu_]

What a ridiculous statement.

You are ready to accept Persian, Arabic and Turkic, but hate the Sanskrit words in Hindi which your forefathers have used for centuries before Islam came.

As per Darwinian dogma some 5 millions years ago our hominid ancestors separated from the chimpanzees, bad luck for them I guess but in an Islamic republic we can't afford using Sanskrit or Sanskritized terms.

Btw I'm sure you don't have the same pulses when nationalist Hindus try to eliminate Islamic cultural imperialism from India (Taj Mahal, Urdu, Bollywood, etc)

There is no need to fight Indian influence as Indian culture is itself imitating western culture and will be unrecognisable in the future. I read a very good article about this from a British Indian actress in the Sunday Times, I will post the relevant quotes later to back that up.

True, diasporic Indians are the first to shed off Hindu culture/folklore/superstitions when they land in the first world, but still the Islamic cultural hygiene should be sanitized from Hindu influences.

 

[troodon]

As per Darwinian dogma some 5 millions years ago our hominid ancestors separated from the chimpanzees, bad luck for them I guess but in an Islamic republic we can't afford using Sanskrit or Sanskritized terms.

Btw I'm sure you don't have the same pulses when nationalist Hindus try to eliminate Islamic cultural imperialism from India (Taj Mahal, Urdu, Bollywood, etc)

Why cannot Pak have Sanskrit words in their vocabulary? Is it because using Sanskrit words will make you look like Hindus?

 

[Badsha]

Car is not another word. Its called a gaari. Double roti is called that because there is no Urdu substitute for it that was ever used.

Ramadan has an urdu word. Called Ramzan. Adhan has an Urdu work: Azaan.

You can go ahead and accept the entire Arab language for all I care, some of us won't. I will make sure my kids knows Urdu as it is.

Kaar is an accepted word in urdu language. You just proved my point. Both Gaari and Kaar are accepted.

Kaar is a good example of English influence on Urdu. Double Roti is bread which can be "naan" but we say "double roti" where does word double come from?

Again my point is this idea of 'pure urdu' or a 'pure culture' is a bit silly.

 

[Badsha]

Best line in this whole thread. Thank you brother.

Urdu "as is" has Kaar for car so he is actually going to be teaching his kids his own version of Urdu... I guess to each their own.

It's the equivalent of an Englishman saying he will teach his kids "pure english" omitting words like Bandana (that comes from Urdu Bhandana) since the word "head gear" exists in English.

 

[Sirris]

Why cannot Pak have Sanskrit words in their vocabulary? Is it because using Sanskrit words will make you look like Hindus?

What are you on about. I am sure 80% of words in urdu evolved or have roots in Sanskrit. And everybody is fine with it.

Artificially trying to add in words long forgotten is a different thing and against the natural development of a language.

It is like adding old germanic words in the English language and getting rid of the French words.

 

[Sirris]

Kaar is an accepted word in urdu language. You just proved my point. Both Gaari and Kaar are accepted.

Kaar is a good example of English influence on Urdu. Double Roti is bread which can be "naan" but we say "double roti" where does word double come from?

Again my point is this idea of 'pure urdu' or a 'pure culture' is a bit silly.

Well Pakistanis are notorious for speaking half English and half Urdu. Which is a death to any language.

I would not count "kaar" as an urdu word.

There might not be a well defined "pure urdu" but the consistent half English and half urdu usage is going to cause issues in the long term.

People often use English words like "chair", "table", "spoon" instead of the proper urdu words and we need to be conscious of that.

 

[Pakpak]

Kaar is an accepted word in urdu language. You just proved my point. Both Gaari and Kaar are accepted.

Kaar is a good example of English influence on Urdu. Double Roti is bread which can be "naan" but we say "double roti" where does word double come from?

Again my point is this idea of 'pure urdu' or a 'pure culture' is a bit silly.

Kaar is not an Urdu word or accepted in the Urdu language, it is an English word and has nothing to do with the Urdu language The Urdu word for it is gaari. The only people using 'car' are the people in cities, majority of the people use ''gudi'' in Punjabi.

Double roti is double roti because there is no word for bread like that, naan is something entirely different.

And in any case, English is a universal language, no single country can lay claim to it now. The internet, heck you're posting in English, is an example. It is also one the official language of Pakistan since our inception. Arabic was never our official language, the reasons Arabs use words like Ramadan is because they don't have 'z' in alphabet. We do.

If we were *******ising Urdu words into English like you are doing with Urdu words in Arabic then you'd have a point. The only reason people are using Arabic is because of our Arab worship.

As I said, its going around and around in circles, your thread title is as ridiculous as your posts. We don't ''need'' to accept anything, you can teach your future generations Arabic all I care.

I have nothing more to add, carry on.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Personally speaking, it doesn't bother me.

My mother loves Lata Mangeshkar / Mohammad Rafi's old music. Never bothered me for a second and, Insha'Allah, never will.

Maybe we all should need to chill? and let people choose whether they wanna wear Shalwar Kameez or Jeans?

No need to wage war on all fronts fellas

 

[Sirris]

I see a lot of people trying to force themselves away from "Arab influences" on Pakistan. I don't want to go into each and everyone of them but the truth is, Pakistani culture like all culture is by nature evolving, developing and a mix of other cultures.

Trying to make a culture "pure" by running away from the Arab influences seems very childish and meaningless. Urdu itself is a language that borrows words from so many others.

Pakistani culture has a mix of Indian, Turk, Persian and Arab cultures so why are people so **** about not saying "Ramadan" or "Khuda-Hafiz" instead of "Allah-hafiz".

Cultures should be allowed to shape organically.

You want the culture to shape organically yet here you are trying to artificially change how an urdu speaker pronounce رمضان in urdu.

It was the natural cultural development which led to it being pronounced "Ramzaan" in our part of the world.

There are many urdu words which come from Arabic and have a totally different meaning in urdu than do in arabic. The meaning might be related to the original Arabic but it is different. Most of it has to do with the nature of Arabic language.

A great example would be the word شراب which means wine in urdu but in the original Arabic language it can refer to any drink in general.

An other example would be the word قدم which specifically refers to the body part "foot" in Arabic but in urdu it refers to a footstep.

Just because now thanks to the age of information we know how it is in original doesn't mean we should go back and rewrite the language.

Besides most "non religious" words in urdu from Arabic have come via the Persian language influence and not from the direct source. Hence why the way we use these Arabic words is the same how it is used in the Persian language. Ie. شراب؛ meaning alcohol and رمضان being pronounced as "Ramzaan".

Another funny thing the Urdu the word حرامی means "illegitimate child" while in Arabic it is used for a thief.

 

[PakLFC]

If Pakistani culture is evolving then surely that applies to all cultures as well as the thread starter rightly points out. That being the case we must make the Arab's wear Shalwar Kameez as well. Problem is that many Pakistanis adopt Arab culture to be more Muslim which is totally false. Islam and Arabism are not synonymous with each other.

 

[DeadBall]

What a confused bunch we are. Most of the purveyors of the faith don't even know what they're talking about and mostly overdo the religious dedication part (a desi problem) which the Arabs. whom they are trying to please don't give two hoots about. What's even funnier is we try to show each other who is the better Muslim just to have a better standing in the "society" without even knowing what Islam stands for or entails.

It's just the stupid and illiterate masses trying to show who is holier than the other and would have been the same if Christiantiy, Judaism etc had a stronghold in the region, only they would be killing themselves or others trying to prove how Jesus is the son of God or some other fairy tale.

We are basically killing each other for the beliefs that were enforced upon us. The West is advancing in leaps and bounds and we are still arguing about the pronunciation of words. Maybe we deserve it.

P.S- Btw by we here I mean 90% of the Pakistani "Ummah" who have no understanding of the actual religion, and just use it to one up each other and show how more pious they are than their neighbor.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What a confused bunch we are. Most of the purveyors of the faith don't even know what they're talking about and mostly overdo the religious dedication part (a desi problem) which the Arabs. whom they are trying to please don't give two hoots about. What's even funnier is we try to show each other who is the better Muslim just to have a better standing in the "society" without even knowing what Islam stands for or entails.

It's just the stupid and illiterate masses trying to show who is holier than the other and would have been the same if Christiantiy, Judaism etc had a stronghold in the region, only they would be killing themselves or others trying to prove how Jesus is the son of God or some other fairy tale.

We are basically killing each other for the beliefs that were enforced upon us. The West is advancing in leaps and bounds and we are still arguing about the pronunciation of words. Maybe we deserve it.

P.S- Btw by we here I mean 90% of the Pakistani "Ummah" who have no understanding of the actual religion, and just use it to one up each other and show how more pious they are than their neighbor.

The creation of Pakistan is mostly to blame for this over-emphasis on adopting Islamic culture. Now Pakistanis feel obliged to overdo the Islamic lifestyle to justify partition, whereas if India had remained united, then they could have continued to evolve by adopting British culture as indeed India has done since despite their tiresome protests about the evils of the British empire.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Here is an excerpt from the article I mentioned earlier from the British Indian actress Anita Rani

There has never been a more exciting time for Indian cinema. In the early 1990s the Indian economy opened up, taxes were lowered, import duty was reduced and foreign investment was encouraged. I have witnessed the changes that have taken place in India. One of these is the growth of a huge middle class with money to spend; a liberal generation who have grown up in India’s modern towns and cities watching Hollywood as well as Bollywood, eating burgers and running home to catch the next episode of Friends. They date, drink in bars, and speak English more than Hindi...



...As a British broadcaster of Indian heritage who feels like a citizen of the world, my relationship with Bollywood, like all relationships, has had its ups and downs. We have had a few tough patches, we have laughed together, danced together and, like my mother, I now cry with Bollywood. It’s a relationship I’ve had my entire life and it’s pretty obvious that, in my own way, I love it.

So get your popcorn ready, prepare to enter a dream and get ready to dance.
Bollywood: The World’s Biggest Film Industry is on BBC Two on August 13, 9pm

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six...-trip-from-countryfile-to-bollywood-jlm2mfr0p

 

[Badsha]

Kaar is not an Urdu word or accepted in the Urdu language, it is an English word and has nothing to do with the Urdu language The Urdu word for it is gaari. The only people using 'car' are the people in cities, majority of the people use ''gudi'' in Punjabi.

Double roti is double roti because there is no word for bread like that, naan is something entirely different.

And in any case, English is a universal language, no single country can lay claim to it now. The internet, heck you're posting in English, is an example. It is also one the official language of Pakistan since our inception. Arabic was never our official language, the reasons Arabs use words like Ramadan is because they don't have 'z' in alphabet. We do.

If we were *******ising Urdu words into English like you are doing with Urdu words in Arabic then you'd have a point. The only reason people are using Arabic is because of our Arab worship.

As I said, its going around and around in circles, your thread title is as ridiculous as your posts. We don't ''need'' to accept anything, you can teach your future generations Arabic all I care.

I have nothing more to add, carry on.

Do what you want but I will correct you on some facts

1) Kaar (kaaf alif rai) IS an Urdu word and I can find it for you in many Urdu text books. Whether you hate that fact that it is an urdu word or not is a separate issue but it is an Urdu word. I have studied Urdu for years (as I could not speak it) and have had to learn from scratch. I know for a fact Kaar is an official Urdu word -- look it up in dictionaries

2) Naan is not a "totally different" thing. Naan means bread. To the west he had thick breads, they called it Naans. To the east we had thinner breads (rotiki in sanscrit) from which we got Roti.

3) English's universelness has nothing to do with this. Rather its the fact that Urdu, like English is a mix of languages.

Again, do what you want I am not stopping you but I wanted to show you some facts at least before you wage on a "pure urdu" battle.

 

[Badsha]

You want the culture to shape organically yet here you are trying to artificially change how an urdu speaker pronounce رمضان in urdu.

It was the natural cultural development which led to it being pronounced "Ramzaan" in our part of the world.

There are many urdu words which come from Arabic and have a totally different meaning in urdu than do in arabic. The meaning might be related to the original Arabic but it is different. Most of it has to do with the nature of Arabic language.

A great example would be the word شراب which means wine in urdu but in the original Arabic language it can refer to any drink in general.

An other example would be the word قدم which specifically refers to the body part "foot" in Arabic but in urdu it refers to a footstep.

Just because now thanks to the age of information we know how it is in original doesn't mean we should go back and rewrite the language.

Besides most "non religious" words in urdu from Arabic have come via the Persian language influence and not from the direct source. Hence why the way we use these Arabic words is the same how it is used in the Persian language. Ie. شراب؛ meaning alcohol and رمضان being pronounced as "Ramzaan".

Another funny thing the Urdu the word حرامی means "illegitimate child" while in Arabic it is used for a thief.

I do not think I am asking for change. If an Urdu speaker says Ramazaan that is all fine but saying Ramadan should also be accepted.

In English literature it is extremely common to use French words even when English has a translation for it. People use it for impact and some just like using it. Let people use words borrowed from other languages it does not ruin our culture.

(P.S: an argument can be made that Ramazan is a *******ized translation of Ramadan but if I made that argument I'd be a hypocrite here going against my point. Just an FYI though)

 

[Badsha]

What a confused bunch we are. Most of the purveyors of the faith don't even know what they're talking about and mostly overdo the religious dedication part (a desi problem) which the Arabs. whom they are trying to please don't give two hoots about. What's even funnier is we try to show each other who is the better Muslim just to have a better standing in the "society" without even knowing what Islam stands for or entails.

It's just the stupid and illiterate masses trying to show who is holier than the other and would have been the same if Christiantiy, Judaism etc had a stronghold in the region, only they would be killing themselves or others trying to prove how Jesus is the son of God or some other fairy tale.

We are basically killing each other for the beliefs that were enforced upon us. The West is advancing in leaps and bounds and we are still arguing about the pronunciation of words. Maybe we deserve it.

P.S- Btw by we here I mean 90% of the Pakistani "Ummah" who have no understanding of the actual religion, and just use it to one up each other and show how more pious they are than their neighbor.

We are having a discussion about culture and society of Pakistan. These discussion are help all across the west as well so I don't see a need to be so demeaning to ourselves.

Also, it is a bit pretentious to say 90 percent of our Ummah does not understand the actual religion. Everyone interprets it in their own way.

 

[saadibaba]

I agree with OP....let people ridicule themselves.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The creation of Pakistan is mostly to blame for this over-emphasis on adopting Islamic culture. Now Pakistanis feel obliged to overdo the Islamic lifestyle to justify partition, whereas if India had remained united, then they could have continued to evolve by adopting British culture as indeed India has done since despite their tiresome protests about the evils of the British empire.

And that is the tragedy of Hindustan, Captain sahib. We got duped by the so called independence, which was just a transfer of power between the real native brits, to the fake brits, who had the same contempt towards us natives, like our former masters. They never let us grow as free people. The convent educated anglophiles and the muslimphiles have looked down upon us, quoting milton keats rumi and faiz at us, and treating our own culture, literature and arts as inferior. Our temples lay in decay while the plane taj mahal gets grants for its upkeep, our literature books are sold at railway station stalls, while their literature at sold airports and malls. Their rituals of cake cutting are considered cool, our rituals of pooja get scoffed at. Our civilization is under attack from the three Ms, Missionaries, Muslims and Maoists, the chrislamocommie nexus, who have formed an unholy alliance to keep us enslaved through the poison of english education, western culture, bollywood muslim mafia and communism. It must be quite pleasing for hinduphobes like you, but everyday is a fight for exsitence for us, fighting to protect our diminishing turf and dwarfing stock. But fight we will, till the last hindu, till the last drop of our blood, and till the last spermatozoa in our body.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And that is the tragedy of Hindustan, Captain sahib. We got duped by the so called independence, which was just a transfer of power between the real native brits, to the fake brits, who had the same contempt towards us natives, like our former masters. They never let us grow as free people. The convent educated anglophiles and the muslimphiles have looked down upon us, quoting milton keats rumi and faiz at us, and treating our own culture, literature and arts as inferior. Our temples lay in decay while the plane taj mahal gets grants for its upkeep, our literature books are sold at railway station stalls, while their literature at sold airports and malls. Their rituals of cake cutting are considered cool, our rituals of pooja get scoffed at. Our civilization is under attack from the three Ms, Missionaries, Muslims and Maoists, the chrislamocommie nexus, who have formed an unholy alliance to keep us enslaved through the poison of english education, western culture, bollywood muslim mafia and communism. It must be quite pleasing for hinduphobes like you, but everyday is a fight for exsitence for us, fighting to protect our diminishing turf and dwarfing stock. But fight we will, till the last hindu, till the last drop of our blood, and till the last spermatozoa in our body.

You don't need to lay the charge of hinduphobe at my door, by your own admission, the vast majority of genuine native Indians are hinduphobes by that standard. British Indians like Anita Rani who I quoted above is so excited and overjoyed that modern Indians are speaking English rather than Hindi, and rushing home from the bars to watch English language tv programmes. You can fight to your last breath, but the superior culture must prevail, and it will be planted and nurtured by your very own as a timeless legacy.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Cultures evolve with time.

Here in the UK we have creeping Americanisms. I doubt even 25 years ago people would have met up in a coffee shop for a cappuccino however now because of the popularity of shows like friends they have became a part of the culture.

Similarly our language/dress especially amongst younger people is heavily influenced by American Music and fashion.

Our office cultures seem to have borrowed very heavily from America too. I guess because they are the dominant Western Culture we will all follow.

These things are pretty fluid. What made up British culture in the past would be alien to many people today. Just got to move with the times man.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Cultures evolve with time.

Here in the UK we have creeping Americanisms. I doubt even 25 years ago people would have met up in a coffee shop for a cappuccino however now because of the popularity of shows like friends they have became a part of the culture.

Similarly our language/dress especially amongst younger people is heavily influenced by American Music and fashion.

Our office cultures seem to have borrowed very heavily from America too. I guess because they are the dominant Western Culture we will all follow.

These things are pretty fluid. What made up British culture in the past would be alien to many people today. Just got to move with the times man.

Personally I believe the Brits will reverse that trend, Americans have grown quite fascinated with the British in the last decade, they can't get enough of our tv shows like Downton Abbey, our actors are taking over all their best parts in the leading films and television serials and the Union Jack has become a fashion icon.

I see a big opportunity for Pakistani British actors as well, they can get roles to play the American Indian community. Pakistani Brits tend to have the looks resembling the Bollywood Khans so they can provide American Indians with a glamorous image to replace the Apu one which has distressed many.

 

[Syed1]

Kaar is an accepted word in urdu language. You just proved my point. Both Gaari and Kaar are accepted.

Kaar is a good example of English influence on Urdu. Double Roti is bread which can be "naan" but we say "double roti" where does word double come from?

Again my point is this idea of 'pure urdu' or a 'pure culture' is a bit silly.

I don't know which Urdu you have been speaking where people are calling gaari as kaar

 

[Syed1]

View attachment 83235

I agree with OP....let people ridicule themselves.

Yeah we should speak Urdu like Billoo Bhutto

 

[saadibaba]

Yeah we should speak Urdu like Billoo Bhutto

Get over his accent dude, its become an obsession for people like you.

He actually has been speaking really well lately. A slight accent is understandable since he didn't spend much time in Pakistan while growing up.

On the contrary the dude in the picture above speaks perfect Urdu but is so toxic and bad on so many levels.

 

[Syed1]

Get over his accent dude, its become an obsession for people like you.

He actually has been speaking really well lately. A slight accent is understandable since he didn't spend much time in Pakistan while growing up.

On the contrary the dude in the picture above speaks perfect Urdu but is so toxic and bad on so many levels.

The guy in the picture has zero corruption charges against him and cannot even be blamed for a ruppee's worth of corruption, while Billooo Bhutto has grown up on money earned through corruption and hasn't worked a day in his life but he is the champion for uninformed overseas Pakistanis who wouldn't elect a guy like Billoo Bhutto in a village council in their adopted country but want him to be PM of Pakistan.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The guy in the picture has zero corruption charges against him and cannot even be blamed for a ruppee's worth of corruption, while Billooo Bhutto has grown up on money earned through corruption and hasn't worked a day in his life but he is the champion for uninformed overseas Pakistanis who wouldn't elect a guy like Billoo Bhutto in a village council in their adopted country but want him to be PM of Pakistan.

Exactly. Dr Amir Liaquat is far better than Bilawal. At least his daaman is paak saaf, his income is halaal, his imaan is strong and his ikhlas is true. Can't say the same about Prince Bilawal.

 

[DeadBall]

Exactly. Dr Amir Liaquat is far better than Bilawal. At least his daaman is paak saaf, his income is halaal, his imaan is strong and his ikhlas is true. Can't say the same about Prince Bilawal.

He's not a Doctor. His degrees are fake.

 

[Pakpak]

Do what you want but I will correct you on some facts

1) Kaar (kaaf alif rai) IS an Urdu word and I can find it for you in many Urdu text books. Whether you hate that fact that it is an urdu word or not is a separate issue but it is an Urdu word. I have studied Urdu for years (as I could not speak it) and have had to learn from scratch. I know for a fact Kaar is an official Urdu word -- look it up in dictionaries

2) Naan is not a "totally different" thing. Naan means bread. To the west he had thick breads, they called it Naans. To the east we had thinner breads (rotiki in sanscrit) from which we got Roti.

3) English's universelness has nothing to do with this. Rather its the fact that Urdu, like English is a mix of languages.

Again, do what you want I am not stopping you but I wanted to show you some facts at least before you wage on a "pure urdu" battle.

I am sorry I had to reply....car is an Urdu word

It is not, never has been an Urdu word. Its called a gaari.

People like you will end up renaming us 'Bakistan' soon.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

He's not a Doctor. His degrees are fake.

The guy you're quoting is a troll. A very subtle one but all his posts are a meme.

That said, what is Pakistani culture. This is a serious question. I am genuinely curious.

 

[DeadBall]

The guy you're quoting is a troll. A very subtle one but all his posts are a meme.

I know, just wanted to point it that he is not a doctor to others who might think so.