Pakistan ODI - Middle order dilemma

[mominsaigol]

we must stop this agha experiment simply pick up imad waseem he is the missing link.

i fear how this batting will fare against good bowling line ups.

the format in the world cup is such that every game is important. Agha got enough chances. It is hard to change mental deficiency that comes with being a Pakistani player.

Pakistan needs an experienced middle order batsman either imad waseem or haris sohal that left handed bastman. you can not field an inxperienced team altogether.

seems like Inzi got a job based on connections and have no idea how to field playing 11 for the world cup.

hopefully he is not getting feedback from formal skipper imran khan from Jail such is his mental capacity as a chief selector.

Jee abh samaj aii on why imad waseem is needed?

If only saud could bowl, we'd have him in place of Agha.

 

[shamaan]

Jee abh samaj aii on why imad waseem is needed?

If only saud could bowl, we'd have him in place of Agha.

Saud can bowl but obviously not as a 5th/6th bowler.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

When are we planning to utilize Agha for bowling? He's almost performing as a specialist batsman. In my opinion Saud should be considered in his place and Iftikhar could be used as the 6th bowler.

 

[adzzy786]

Why don’t they pick Mohammed Haris? He can add the fire power in the middle lower order?

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Why don’t they pick Mohammed Haris? He can add the fire power in the middle lower order?

i believe he can be replaced with Fakhar Zaman as he is in the terrible form these days.

 

[MenInG]

Have Ifti and Riz solved that dilemma?

 

[Extra_Cover]

Have Ifti and Riz solved that dilemma?

The dilemma is sorted sort of. Ifti getting consistency in runs at 5 is great to see and Rizwan is having a great 2023 at number 4. Our issues are now more associated with Fakhar at top and we need a consistent batter at 6. Injuries aside our bowling is looking best sorted at the moment.

 

[imran1976]

Have Ifti and Riz solved that dilemma?

4) Saud
5) Rizwan
6) Iftikhar

 

[ads101]

Would have still liked to try Rizwan as opener if the slot is available. Though Rizwan is continuing to perform middle order and Abdullah now scored a fifty. So might as well keep both of them there.

Saud Should come in for Haris. Can move down Rizwan to 5 for him.

 

[imran1976]

3) Babar
4) ??
5) Rizwan
6) Iftikhar
7) Imad
8) Shadab

Followed by 3 quicks

4) Saud Shakeel
there's no specialist spinner in your squad ?

 

[Firebat]

4) Saud Shakeel
there's no specialist spinner in your squad ?

Yes I was weighing up between Saud and Shafique, but the latter can slot in as opener better as we saw today.

Shadab can be replaced by Usama sure, but to be honest the cupboard of specialist spinners is bare. I don't trust any of them to do that much better than Shadab, but they can't do worse.

 

[hassan918]

This should be the middle order for Pakistan in the ODI Cricket.

4. Rizwan
5. Saud
6. Iftikhar
7. Shadab
8. Nawaz

 

[Cricket Warrior]

This should be the middle order for Pakistan in the ODI Cricket.

4. Rizwan
5. Saud
6. Iftikhar
7. Shadab
8. Nawaz

I think Saud must play above rizwan because saud shakeel is very good in rotating the strike and also he can handle spin quite well.

 

[Rana]

Kusal Mendis May have sealed Pakistan’s fate in this World Cup

 

[ahmadharis1]

Players I want to see in the middle order;

Healthy Haris Sohail (if only)
Tayyab Tahir
Kamran Ghulam
Khushdil Shah

 

[MenInG]

And there you have it in numbers....

 

[Rana]

And there you have it in numbers....

Well this makes absolutely no sense

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Well this makes absolutely no sense

can u plz explain how?

 

[LordEddardStark]

Hi everyone,

So, there have been a lot of discussion on this forum and elsewhere about the best middle order for ongoing World cup. There was a lot of debate about possible inclusion of Saud Shakeel in place of Salman Agha, which eventually led him joining the ranks for Pak vs Netherlands match. However, knowing his record since his domestic days, it never felt right to have him start at Number 5 position. I thought therefore to get his numbers and compare them with his two middle-order companions; Rizwan and Iftikhar, and see which one of them has better record at what position. Following is a snapshot of that analysis.

So about data first: I have obtained record of last 46 ODI & List A matches of Rizwan, Iftikhar and Saud. The number is purely arbitrary but my choice of this number has more to do with availability of data than anything else. Especially in case of Saud, the data problem is too acute as he has only played 6 ODI innings and not all his List A matches have proper record. Nevertheless, I have gone backward from most recent inning for all of them to the last, and have not missed any innings in between. A breakdown of their analysed innings is as below:

Rizwan: 40 ODI matches and 6 List A matches
Iftikhar: 17 ODI matches and 29 List A matches
Saud: 6 ODI matches and 40 List A matches

ANALYSIS:

Firstly, a side by side comparison of all three over this period.

View attachment 137292

Second comparison is of their performance batting first and second. I am not including S/Rs because they are virtually the same over two periods.



Third parameter is their respective performance at different positions, which is the one that I did all of this for. Now, Saud plays mostly at number 3 in domestic, Rizwan at 4 and Iftikhar at 4 as well. Ironically, when Saud and Rizwan play together, Saud comes ahead of Rizwan, which would not be the case in international matches.

However, to me more interesting would be to see how each player performs with respect of stage of match they come in. Both Rizwan and Saud came within first 10 0vers against Netherlands, however their time of entry and subsequently their style of play would change if they come in say after 30 0vers. So here is a side-by-side comparison of all three both at their respective positions as well as at the match stage when they started their innings.


Last analysis is a bit incomplete as I intended to do a phase wise analysis of all three. But there is very little data available in case of List A matches, so I had no choice to only take ODI innings into account. But since Saud has played only 6 of them yet, I had to exclude him from the comparison.

This analysis is also two-part. First of this analysis is performance in terms of S/R for each five phases of the team innings. Second one is their S/R for every 20 balls they play. Second one is intended to show how each of them pace their innings.



Now everyone would have different interpretations for this analysis. But to me key takeaways are as below:

1. All three batters are proper middle-order players and have come in team on the basis of strong domestic performance in the similar positions.
2. Both Iftikhar and Rizwan have better record chasing as compared to batting first. Iftikhar's record actually was really surprising for me. Although there isn't much difference between S/Rs, there is a huge gap between averages (26.08 vs 88.15).
3. Batting position wise, best place for Saud Shakeel is number 3. Since that is not possible, the next best is number 4. 5th is actually his worst position in terms of historical performance, but the numbers still are really good.
4. However, best batting position for Rizwan is 4th as well, and there is a significant gap in his record at that position vs his record at 5th position.
5. Best batting position for Iftikhar for bat is 6th, where he is batting right now. Close second is 4th, where he bats mostly in domestics. Actually I have found him really dynamic as to how he has batted really well despite not playing at his ideal position.
6. Iftikhar is much better in pacing his innings if compared to Rizwan. Rizwan's S/R still remains in the same bracket even though he has faced more than 40-60 balls. Ironically, the data suggests that he slows down after he has faced 80 balls and only increases the tempo when he has faced 120 balls. I am not trying to be a conspiracy theorist here but its such a strange time to slow down.
7. Most importantly what this analysis tells us is that best way to play our middle-order to their strength is to send them according to match position.
   1. If its overs 1-10, best person to go in is Saud Shakil.
   2. If its overs 11-20, either Muhammad Rizwan or Saud Shakil can go in.
   3. If its overs 21-30, Iftikhar has the best numbers. Saud does not have enough good numbers to suggest he can come in after 20 overs and can still pace his innings perfectly. Rizwan's numbers are better than Saud still.
   4. For 31-40, Rizwan has the best performance in terms of both S/R and Average.
   5. If all three are still there for 41-50, Iftikhar has absolutely phenomenal numbers in this bracket.

So there it goes. Feel free to add more points to this analysis.

 

[Bilal Ahmad15]

Great analysis. I made a thread suggesting one of Rizwan or Babar should open in ODI. And since Babar is probably Pakistans best batsmen against Pace, if Babar Opens, then that would allow Saud Shakeel to bat in no. 3 which you said is his best position, and Rizwan at 4, Iftikhar at 6. But who would bat a 5? Agha Salman or Fakhar Maybe?

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Hi everyone,

So, there have been a lot of discussion on this forum and elsewhere about the best middle order for ongoing World cup. There was a lot of debate about possible inclusion of Saud Shakeel in place of Salman Agha, which eventually led him joining the ranks for Pak vs Netherlands match. However, knowing his record since his domestic days, it never felt right to have him start at Number 5 position. I thought therefore to get his numbers and compare them with his two middle-order companions; Rizwan and Iftikhar, and see which one of them has better record at what position. Following is a snapshot of that analysis.

So about data first: I have obtained record of last 46 ODI & List A matches of Rizwan, Iftikhar and Saud. The number is purely arbitrary but my choice of this number has more to do with availability of data than anything else. Especially in case of Saud, the data problem is too acute as he has only played 6 ODI innings and not all his List A matches have proper record. Nevertheless, I have gone backward from most recent inning for all of them to the last, and have not missed any innings in between. A breakdown of their analysed innings is as below:

Rizwan: 40 ODI matches and 6 List A matches
Iftikhar: 17 ODI matches and 29 List A matches
Saud: 6 ODI matches and 40 List A matches

ANALYSIS:

Firstly, a side by side comparison of all three over this period.

View attachment 137292

Second comparison is of their performance batting first and second. I am not including S/Rs because they are virtually the same over two periods.

View attachment 137304

Third parameter is their respective performance at different positions, which is the one that I did all of this for. Now, Saud plays mostly at number 3 in domestic, Rizwan at 4 and Iftikhar at 4 as well. Ironically, when Saud and Rizwan play together, Saud comes ahead of Rizwan, which would not be the case in international matches.

However, to me more interesting would be to see how each player performs with respect of stage of match they come in. Both Rizwan and Saud came within first 10 0vers against Netherlands, however their time of entry and subsequently their style of play would change if they come in say after 30 0vers. So here is a side-by-side comparison of all three both at their respective positions as well as at the match stage when they started their innings.

View attachment 137294
Last analysis is a bit incomplete as I intended to do a phase wise analysis of all three. But there is very little data available in case of List A matches, so I had no choice to only take ODI innings into account. But since Saud has played only 6 of them yet, I had to exclude him from the comparison.

This analysis is also two-part. First of this analysis is performance in terms of S/R for each five phases of the team innings. Second one is their S/R for every 20 balls they play. Second one is intended to show how each of them pace their innings.

View attachment 137299

Now everyone would have different interpretations for this analysis. But to me key takeaways are as below:

1. All three batters are proper middle-order players and have come in team on the basis of strong domestic performance in the similar positions.
2. Both Iftikhar and Rizwan have better record chasing as compared to batting first. Iftikhar's record actually was really surprising for me. Although there isn't much difference between S/Rs, there is a huge gap between averages (26.08 vs 88.15).
3. Batting position wise, best place for Saud Shakeel is number 3. Since that is not possible, the next best is number 4. 5th is actually his worst position in terms of historical performance, but the numbers still are really good.
4. However, best batting position for Rizwan is 4th as well, and there is a significant gap in his record at that position vs his record at 5th position.
5. Best batting position for Iftikhar for bat is 6th, where he is batting right now. Close second is 4th, where he bats mostly in domestics. Actually I have found him really dynamic as to how he has batted really well despite not playing at his ideal position.
6. Iftikhar is much better in pacing his innings if compared to Rizwan. Rizwan's S/R still remains in the same bracket even though he has faced more than 40-60 balls. Ironically, the data suggests that he slows down after he has faced 80 balls and only increases the tempo when he has faced 120 balls. I am not trying to be a conspiracy theorist here but its such a strange time to slow down.
7. Most importantly what this analysis tells us is that best way to play our middle-order to their strength is to send them according to match position.
   1. If its overs 1-10, best person to go in is Saud Shakil.
   2. If its overs 11-20, either Muhammad Rizwan or Saud Shakil can go in.
   3. If its overs 21-30, Iftikhar has the best numbers. Saud does not have enough good numbers to suggest he can come in after 20 overs and can still pace his innings perfectly. Rizwan's numbers are better than Saud still.
   4. For 31-40, Rizwan has the best performance in terms of both S/R and Average.
   5. If all three are still there for 41-50, Iftikhar has absolutely phenomenal numbers in this bracket.

So there it goes. Feel free to add more points to this analysis.

Great analysis, Well with the inclusion of Saud Shakeel middle order looking more stable. However, there is still a concern about the strike rate as it's crucial to score runs at a higher rate during the middle overs to get a competitive total.

 

[Firebat]

Rizwan, Saud, Iftikhar.

Suddenly Pakistan's middle order looks very strong...

 

[Cricket Warrior]

They can make it even better if they consider replacing Imam with Agha Salman and send Babar to open alongside Abdullah.