Pakistan STILL has what it takes to win the ICC World Cup 2023!

[160KPH]

Very good analysis by @ExpressPacer and @heddie19 in this thread.

I wish the detractors would just be honest, they don’t care about numbers of facts, only feelings. They feel that Pakistan winning bilateral series is useless but India winning bilateral with both sides resting best players against Australia means India is suddenly going to beat everyone.

Yes, India is the favorites, home team has won last 4 out of 5 ODI World Cups. India has very strong batting lineup and bowling is clicking too. Yes, Pakistan had a bad Asia Cup.

But, no it is not the end of the world. Pakistan has massively over performs in all ICC trophies in the last many years aside from 2019 which they had an atrocious start to. Similar to how New Zealand performs in tournaments. Just relax and see how they perform.

 

[mikeypbadana86]

You can basically make these type of comments about any team.

England, the country where cricket was born, is so dangerous that they have only made one ODI World Cup Final in the last 30 years. A final which they barely won at home due to the tiebreaker of having scored more 4’s in the innings against a team from a nation of 10x less people.

India is so dangerous that that they have not made a single World T20 Final since the first edition. And only made 2 ODI Finals in the last 40 years - one of which was the largest margin of loss in World Cup final history and the second which they won which was at home. (last 4 out of 5 WCs have been won by the home team)

you stand corrected. india played 2014 t20 final against SL, which yuvraj bottled scoring 11 off 21, not giving strike to in-form kohli.

 

[heddie19]

Plenty of times Fakhar/Imam got out early enough, why no double hundred then from Babar, bro?

Kohli played around 250 matches at no.3 that is twice as much as Babar. How many double hundreds has he scored?
Same for Smith, Root and Williamson.

 

[heddie19]

Very good analysis by @ExpressPacer and @heddie19 in this thread.

I wish the detractors would just be honest, they don’t care about numbers of facts, only feelings. They feel that Pakistan winning bilateral series is useless but India winning bilateral with both sides resting best players against Australia means India is suddenly going to beat everyone.

Yes, India is the favorites, home team has won last 4 out of 5 ODI World Cups. India has very strong batting lineup and bowling is clicking too. Yes, Pakistan had a bad Asia Cup.

But, no it is not the end of the world. Pakistan has massively over performs in all ICC trophies in the last many years aside from 2019 which they had an atrocious start to. Similar to how New Zealand performs in tournaments. Just relax and see how they perform.

Thanks mate. But I don't understand last 4/5 home sides winning WCs. It is last 3/3 but before that Australia won in South Africa and WestIndies respectively. IDK how people are saying last 4/5 WCs have won the home sides. It is actually 3/5 or 3/3.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Kohli played around 250 matches at no.3 that is twice as much as Babar. How many double hundreds has he scored?
Same for Smith, Root and Williamson.

But according to you, Babar is heads and shoulders above all of them. So no excuses for Bobby

 

[heddie19]

But according to you, Babar is heads and shoulders above all of them. So no excuses for Bobby

All format, yes. Currently. But in ODIs Gill has been a monster in 2023. Since he scoring runs for fun, it will be between him and Babar for the top run-scorer and I'd say Gill because the WC is in India. He has a shot to beat Tendu's record of most ODI runs in a calender year too. Could be World no. 1 too in coming days. I'd have picked Buttler too but he is batting at no.5 after Stokes return that is why he won't score that much but had he batted in top 3, he would have been my guy to be the scorer for this WC.
I am a Babar fan but not a blind one. Also, double century won't make any batter any better. It is the total runs and consistency. I don't rate Sehwag more than Ponting due to his double/triple hundreds only.

Bowling, I think Kuldeep will be the leading wicket taker with Shaheen, Starc and Boult also having a shot.

 

[Mamoon]

You can basically make these type of comments about any team.

England, the country where cricket was born, is so dangerous that they have only made one ODI World Cup Final in the last 30 years. A final which they barely won at home due to the tiebreaker of having scored more 4’s in the innings against a team from a nation of 10x less people.

India is so dangerous that that they have not made a single World T20 Final since the first edition. And only made 2 ODI Finals in the last 40 years - one of which was the largest margin of loss in World Cup final history and the second which they won which was at home. (last 4 out of 5 WCs have been won by the home team)

You can, but others teams don’t do this unpredictability and mercuriality branding.

Pakistan is the only cricket team in the world that romanticizes inconsistency and repackages it as unpredictability.

There is nothing special that Pakistan does that other teams don’t. It is all nonsense. Pakistan is a predictable team - a predictably mediocre team.

Unfortunately, the 1992 fluke destroyed the culture of Pakistan cricket.

 

[ExpressPacer]

You can, but others teams don’t do this unpredictability and mercuriality branding.

Pakistan is the only cricket team in the world that romanticizes inconsistency and repackages it as unpredictability.

There is nothing special that Pakistan does that other teams don’t. It is all nonsense. Pakistan is a predictable team - a predictably mediocre team.

Unfortunately, the 1992 fluke destroyed the culture of Pakistan cricket.

1992 was a fluke. 2009 was a fluke. 2017 was a fluke. All flukes, bro.

Criticise the team but give credit where it is a due.

 

[Mamoon]

1992 was a fluke. 2009 was a fluke. 2017 was a fluke. All flukes, bro.

Criticise the team but give credit where it is a due.

1992 and 2017 were flukes. 2009 wasn’t.

Pakistan was a genuinely good T20 team between 2007-2010.

They had a rocky campaign in 2009 but once they got their act together they went all the way. A bit like England in 2019, but England were stronger for sure.

There were several better and more deserving sides than Pakistan in 1992 and 2017. Lightning struck twice.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

1992 was a fluke. 2009 was a fluke. 2017 was a fluke. All flukes, bro.

Criticise the team but give credit where it is a due.

1992 was not a fluke. Consistent, fast scoring side. 2009 was not a fluke either.

2017 CT probably was. PAK were rubbish before that and rubbish after that for 2 years.

CT has a weird history.

Low ranked India and NZ made finals in 2000, knocking out PAK, OZ and SA.

2002 - low ranked India knocked out SA and low ranked SL knocked out PAK and OZ.

#7 WI and #8 England knocked out SA, PAK and OZ to play finals in 2004 etc.

 

[ExpressPacer]

1992 and 2017 were flukes. 2009 wasn’t.

Pakistan was a genuinely good T20 team between 2007-2010.

They had a rocky campaign in 2009 but once they got their act together they went all the way. A bit like England in 2019, but England were stronger for sure.

There were several better and more deserving sides than Pakistan in 1992 and 2017. Lightning struck twice.

There are already enough posts on this forum that have proved your “fluke” theory to be wrong.

In 2017, Pakistan was the best team on display. We convincingly beat every team that we did beat in the day, away from home at that, and then we even more convincingly so beat India in the final. Batting, bowling, fielding, captaincy, heck even reviews to the third umpire were absolutely perfect.

If there were any concerns about Pakistan fluking its way to the final, Pakistan proved them wrong with its overall, almost-perfect performance, which is rare for Pakistan because we only just win the barest of margins.

If anything, as the poster above has argued, England’s 2019 final was a fluke if there has ever been one — playing on home soil and then winning the way they did. Probably the most anticlimactic win there ever was.

I won’t comment on 1992 because I wasn’t born yet.

 

[ExpressPacer]

1992 was not a fluke. Consistent, fast scoring side. 2009 was not a fluke either.

2017 CT probably was. PAK were rubbish before that and rubbish after that for 2 years.

CT has a weird history.

Low ranked India and NZ made finals in 2000, knocking out PAK, OZ and SA.

2002 - low ranked India knocked out SA and low ranked SL knocked out PAK and OZ.

#7 WI and #8 England knocked out SA, PAK and OZ to play finals in 2004 etc.

Please see my reply to Mamoon above.

But to address your claims of “weirdness”… my friend, you are a respected poster and I think you are better than relying on conspiracy theory-esque arguments such as “Champions Trophy has a weird history”. Every tournament is a new tournament and there are upsets in every tournament. There is no such thing as a tournament being cursed for weird results. 50 over cricket normally results in the better team winning over the course of a tournament.

I don’t mean any disrespect but please provide more a more substantial basis for your argument and you might just convince me.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Please see my reply to Mamoon above.

But to address your claims of “weirdness”… my friend, you are a respected poster and I think you are better than relying on conspiracy theory-esque arguments such as “Champions Trophy has a weird history”. Every tournament is a new tournament and there are upsets in every tournament. There is no such thing as a tournament being cursed for weird results. 50 over cricket normally results in the better team winning over the course of a tournament.

I don’t mean any disrespect but please provide more a more substantial basis for your argument and you might just convince me.

I mean I don't know. Shorter, knockout tournaments favour weaker sides.

CT is nice and short with around 4 matches max. of importance.

Winning it is not a sign of enduring quality.

After winning CT in 2000 , New Zealand ODI hardly madd any impact. Lost matches to Zimbabwe as well iirc.


After India and SL shared 2002 CT, India went on a horror run of losing 2 consecutive ODI series before World Cup

West Indies continued to be a mediocre ODI side after winning 2004 CT and were horrible in their home World Cup.

Pakistan after CT 2017, won only 3 matches against top 8 sides and lost 22 before getting crashed by Windies in the World Cup.


The original point of the CT was to expand the game to include minnows and make it fast, knockout cricket.


But with the advent of T20 World Cups, there is now an even better format for minnows to knockout bigger teams if possible and expand he game.

CT hasn't been relevant ever since. Sure, they want to play it but apart from being a cash cow for the ICC in terms of revenue. But as far as relevance is concerned , it is about as relevant as the Asia Cup.


At least since 2007 that's been the case.

It's not even held regularly.

Good for Pakistan they won the last one but it is the least relevant tournament in the ICC calendar of events and that's including the farce that is the WTC.

The 50 overs World Cup is THE flagship event.

And only if and when ICC decide to make World T20 and once in 4 years event with plenty more teams will it become the main event in ICC cricket.

 

[TheSultan]

1992 was no fluke. Pakistan was one of the pre-tournament favourites.

We were a very consistent side in the lead up. Winning the Nehru Cup 89/90, winning the Australasia Cup 1990, final of the tri series World Series Cup, winning multiple Sharjah Cups.

Waqar and wasim were known for their dominance and Saleem Malik was (after Dean Jones) considered the best ODI batsman in the world.

We just had a horrid start due to instability with Waqar and Imran’s injuries.

Who was more deserving? England? NZ?

England’s player of the tournament was a fat Botham who only had his bowling success because he was so slow, players played him too early.

They both just capitalised on Aus and Pak being off colour and WI in decline.

If anyone really thinks England and NZ with their mix of dibbly dobblers and mediocre bits n pieces allrounders had enough quality to maintain their performance over the tournament was kidding themselves.

Pakistan were one of the favourites, they just needed to start firing on all cylinders which they eventually did. Yes had a bit of luck with results going their way and the England washout, but people conveniently forget that Pakistan lost to SA because of that ridiculous rain rule too so it works both ways.

Anyone who calls it a fluke didnt watch it at the time and just read some scorecards and match reports which were pushed by a very biased English media at the time. #MillenialAnalysis

 

[ExpressPacer]

I mean I don't know. Shorter, knockout tournaments favour weaker sides.

CT is nice and short with around 4 matches max. of importance.

Winning it is not a sign of enduring quality.

After winning CT in 2000 , New Zealand ODI hardly madd any impact. Lost matches to Zimbabwe as well iirc.


After India and SL shared 2002 CT, India went on a horror run of losing 2 consecutive ODI series before World Cup

West Indies continued to be a mediocre ODI side after winning 2004 CT and were horrible in their home World Cup.

Pakistan after CT 2017, won only 3 matches against top 8 sides and lost 22 before getting crashed by Windies in the World Cup.


The original point of the CT was to expand the game to include minnows and make it fast, knockout cricket.


But with the advent of T20 World Cups, there is now an even better format for minnows to knockout bigger teams if possible and expand he game.

CT hasn't been relevant ever since. Sure, they want to play it but apart from being a cash cow for the ICC in terms of revenue. But as far as relevance is concerned , it is about as relevant as the Asia Cup.


At least since 2007 that's been the case.

It's not even held regularly.

Good for Pakistan they won the last one but it is the least relevant tournament in the ICC calendar of events and that's including the farce that is the WTC.

The 50 overs World Cup is THE flagship event.

And only if and when ICC decide to make World T20 and once in 4 years event with plenty more teams will it become the main event in ICC cricket.

So, essentially, you are setting the arbitrary standard of how well a team performs before or after a tournament to determine whether its performance was a fluke INSTEAD of the actual tournament itself where the team would have had to play 100 overs of competitive cricket against top-quality sides.

I’m sorry, but I disagree with your arbitrary standard.

First of all, to address your arbitrary standard, most modern, top-ranking teams seldom play their best players in meaningless bilaterals before/after tournaments. Rather, they save them for matches where their fitness and performance really matters, such as tournaments like the Champions Trophy where every single team was fielding the best team it could field. This may mean that they may lose matches before/after the tournament because they didn’t field their best side, but that doesn’t mean the winning the tournament was a fluke.

I’m not saying that Pakistan necessarily rested players before or after. But I’m merely addressing your argument, which fails on this point.

Secondly, if anything, flukes are much more likely in the shortest version than in ODIs because as we will see, ODIs usually require you to be at the best of your game to win since it is a 100 overs and 8 hours of cricket. Sure, you may fluk a game or two but multiple games in a high pressure tournament? Sorry, mate.

Lastly, Pakistan has not been great since 2017, I agree. But Pakistan has fielded a relatively similar team since then over the years and it is a much improved team compared to the dark ages of the early 2010s. If we had gone back to being as poor as we used to be, I would be inclined to seeing the merits in your argument. But this team has generally been on the up.

P.S. you must remember people usually overstate how poor we were in 2019. Pakistan was the only team to beat both finalists in the WC. Convincingly too.

 

[Technics 1210]

The haters will always shout "fluke" - let them be; these same haters were not even around in 1992 to watch Pakistan lift the WC! That's how blind their hatred is.

Pakistan is the most dangerous tournament side in the world. We witnessed in the CT17 final, the world wrote Pakistan off, practically handed India the CT trophy before play, but no, a united Pakistan team playing with their hearts and humiliated India at their peak - Pakistan was an unstoppable team!

Pakistan's problem has never been talent, it has always been unity.

A united Pakistan team is THE greatest threat to any other team, and the only obstacle to winning the WC!

Write Pakistan off at your own peril!

DIL DIL PAKISTAN!

 

[Technics 1210]

Oh, and we must have the customary Humble Pie thread during the WC. I feel the pies will be out of stock this time round.

 

[ExpressPacer]

The haters will always shout "fluke" - let them be; these same haters were not even around in 1992 to watch Pakistan lift the WC! That's how blind their hatred is.

Pakistan is the most dangerous tournament side in the world. We witnessed in the CT17 final, the world wrote Pakistan off, practically handed India the CT trophy before play, but no, a united Pakistan team playing with their hearts and humiliated India at their peak - Pakistan was an unstoppable team!

Pakistan's problem has never been talent, it has always been unity.

A united Pakistan team is THE greatest threat to any other team, and the only obstacle to winning the WC!

Write Pakistan off at your own peril!

DIL DIL PAKISTAN!

Keep up the Jazba MashaAllah! Not long to go now.

 

[Mamoon]

There are already enough posts on this forum that have proved your “fluke” theory to be wrong.

In 2017, Pakistan was the best team on display. We convincingly beat every team that we did beat in the day, away from home at that, and then we even more convincingly so beat India in the final. Batting, bowling, fielding, captaincy, heck even reviews to the third umpire were absolutely perfect.

If there were any concerns about Pakistan fluking its way to the final, Pakistan proved them wrong with its overall, almost-perfect performance, which is rare for Pakistan because we only just win the barest of margins.

If anything, as the poster above has argued, England’s 2019 final was a fluke if there has ever been one — playing on home soil and then winning the way they did. Probably the most anticlimactic win there ever was.

I won’t comment on 1992 because I wasn’t born yet.

Everything fell in place for Pakistan in 2017.

The stars aligned for the lowest ranked side in the tournament for four games.

The rankings were not misleading because the same set of Pakistan players lost 24 out of 31 ODIs vs the top sides between 2018-19.

Match 1: got thrashed by India

Match 2: Pakistan were under the pump in difficult batting condition vs South Africa. Considering Pakistan’s history, they could have easily bottled the chase but rain helped them.

Match 3: good win against SL from a difficult situation, but SL is a crap team.

Semifinal: A slow, used Cardiff pitch that played into Pakistan’s hands. England would have smashed Pakistan on a proper surface.

Final: Bumrah no ball, Azhar getting run out at a very convenient time.

Same Pakistan team in the same conditions will not win the CT 99/100 times. It was as big a fluke as West Indies winning the 2004 edition in the peak era of the legendary Australia.

No one has or can disprove my assertion that the 2017 CT was a fluke. People like Wasim, Shoaib and Dr. Nauman also started calling it a fluke. Maybe they read PP.

Pakistan had the chance to prove me wrong during the NZ tour in 2018 (whitewashed), Asia Cup 2018 (a humiliation for the ages) and 2019 World Cup (group stage exit with the third worst NRR), but they failed to disprove my claim with flying colors.

 

[Mamoon]

Oh, and we must have the customary Humble Pie thread during the WC. I feel the pies will be out of stock this time round.

There is no chance of restocking pies after the 2023 Asia Cup. We had to restock them thrice but they were too many people making a beeline to get served.

#TheyCannotRestockThem

 

[ExpressPacer]

Everything fell in place for Pakistan in 2017.

The stars aligned for the lowest ranked side in the tournament for four games.

The rankings were not misleading because the same set of Pakistan players lost 24 out of 31 ODIs vs the top sides between 2018-19.

Match 1: got thrashed by India

Match 2: Pakistan were under the pump in difficult batting condition vs South Africa. Considering Pakistan’s history, they could have easily bottled the chase but rain helped them.

Match 3: good win against SL from a difficult situation, but SL is a crap team.

Semifinal: A slow, used Cardiff pitch that played into Pakistan’s hands. England would have smashed Pakistan on a proper surface.

Final: Bumrah no ball, Azhar getting run out at a very convenient time.

Same Pakistan team in the same conditions will not win the CT 99/100 times. It was as big a fluke as West Indies winning the 2004 edition in the peak era of the legendary Australia.

No one has or can disprove my assertion that the 2017 CT was a fluke. People like Wasim, Shoaib and Dr. Nauman also started calling it a fluke. Maybe they read PP.

Pakistan had the chance to prove me wrong during the NZ tour in 2018 (whitewashed), Asia Cup 2018 (a humiliation for the ages) and 2019 World Cup (group stage exit with the third worst NRR), but they failed to disprove my claim with flying colors.

Your argument is almost convincing but it loses its merits when you actually analyse the data.

Stars align for a game, maybe two, three at best — but an entire tournament? Impossible. That requires you to be a good team.

Again, your argument also fails regarding the England match. If England were the better team, England would have beat Pakistan on any surface. Slow, fast, bouncing, wet, dry or lava. If anything, being the worse team, Pakistan should have fallen like a deck of cards on a difficult pitch. Both teams played on the same pitch, Pakistan were the better team. End of.

You must also remember that this was a tournament and not any meaningless bilateral or even a tri-series. Every team was playing their best side and playing to win. Pakistan won fair and square, there were no matches handed to them. South Africa were ranked number 1, India was playing their GOAT side, England was England and also at home. You can’t look over these things and ignore the subtleties.

But even then, say I buy your argument until the final… the way Pakistan convincingly covered all bases like it never has before in the final, that shut up all arguments of it being a fluke. A team that flukes its way to the final doesn’t win the final. A team that flukes its way to the final and actually wins the final doesn’t win it like that. It wins because the match was tied and it had scored more boundaries. It wins it because the other team has injuries. It wins it because it rains. It wins it because lightning strikes.

But Pakistan won it more convincingly than any final has been won.

 

[ExpressPacer]

@Mamoon, as far as the arbitrary standard you have set to determine whether a team has flukes or not, please see my reply to Nikhil.

So, essentially, you are setting the arbitrary standard of how well a team performs before or after a tournament to determine whether its performance was a fluke INSTEAD of the actual tournament itself where the team would have had to play 100 overs of competitive cricket against top-quality sides.

I’m sorry, but I disagree with your arbitrary standard.

First of all, to address your arbitrary standard, most modern, top-ranking teams seldom play their best players in meaningless bilaterals before/after tournaments. Rather, they save them for matches where their fitness and performance really matters, such as tournaments like the Champions Trophy where every single team was fielding the best team it could field. This may mean that they may lose matches before/after the tournament because they didn’t field their best side, but that doesn’t mean the winning the tournament was a fluke.

I’m not saying that Pakistan necessarily rested players before or after. But I’m merely addressing your argument, which fails on this point.

Secondly, if anything, flukes are much more likely in the shortest version than in ODIs because as we will see, ODIs usually require you to be at the best of your game to win since it is a 100 overs and 8 hours of cricket. Sure, you may fluk a game or two but multiple games in a high pressure tournament? Sorry, mate.

Lastly, Pakistan has not been great since 2017, I agree. But Pakistan has fielded a relatively similar team since then over the years and it is a much improved team compared to the dark ages of the early 2010s. If we had gone back to being as poor as we used to be, I would be inclined to seeing the merits in your argument. But this team has generally been on the up.

P.S. you must remember people usually overstate how poor we were in 2019. Pakistan was the only team to beat both finalists in the WC. Convincingly too.

 

[heddie19]

You can, but others teams don’t do this unpredictability and mercuriality branding.

Pakistan is the only cricket team in the world that romanticizes inconsistency and repackages it as unpredictability.

There is nothing special that Pakistan does that other teams don’t. It is all nonsense. Pakistan is a predictable team - a predictably mediocre team.

Unfortunately, the 1992 fluke destroyed the culture of Pakistan cricket.

What was the culture of the team pre 1992? Will you shed some light on it?

 

[Technics 1210]

There is no chance of restocking pies after the 2023 Asia Cup. We had to restock them thrice but they were too many people making a beeline to get served.

#TheyCannotRestockThem

That's cos you ate all of them from the 2019 WC.

We had to find a new supplier post Covid.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Haris Rauf during press conference: Cash against India Should we fight with them? We are playing cricket and not fighting a war. We have belief in ourselves that we are the best.

 

[jnaveen1980]

There is nothing wrong with fans being a little more realistic. Fans can either be over-confident or optimistic or realistic or pessimistic. There is nothing wrong with being in any category. Each individual is different because their analysis is different. SOme try to be practical to deal with disappointments. I remember SHakib once saying "We are not here to win world cup" or something like that. Because they knew they were not going to win. Think about fans. Their discussion will be like "We should finish atleast 4th" not winning the cup. because they know there are too many teams that are better than them. Even if they slay one team they could fail against other teams. It is all probability. They don't think like "We just have to have 3 good days" or "We have to have 2 good days someone else has to have 2 bad days". But Pakistan fans think along those lines beacuse it has happened before. That is optimistic category. Realistic fans are a little more guarded and they are firmly aware of the inadequacies of the team and try to be a little more realistic. Nothing wrong with that as well. Pessmistic fans look for worst case scenarios and expect the worst outcome always. Sometiems they may be right. SA fans over a period have become like that. They kinda sense they are going to fail somewhere. There is nothing wrong in being in any category. One of the category will stand vindicated at the end of the day.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

So, essentially, you are setting the arbitrary standard of how well a team performs before or after a tournament to determine whether its performance was a fluke INSTEAD of the actual tournament itself where the team would have had to play 100 overs of competitive cricket against top-quality sides.

I’m sorry, but I disagree with your arbitrary standard.

First of all, to address your arbitrary standard, most modern, top-ranking teams seldom play their best players in meaningless bilaterals before/after tournaments. Rather, they save them for matches where their fitness and performance really matters, such as tournaments like the Champions Trophy where every single team was fielding the best team it could field. This may mean that they may lose matches before/after the tournament because they didn’t field their best side, but that doesn’t mean the winning the tournament was a fluke.

I’m not saying that Pakistan necessarily rested players before or after. But I’m merely addressing your argument, which fails on this point.

Secondly, if anything, flukes are much more likely in the shortest version than in ODIs because as we will see, ODIs usually require you to be at the best of your game to win since it is a 100 overs and 8 hours of cricket. Sure, you may fluk a game or two but multiple games in a high pressure tournament? Sorry, mate.

Lastly, Pakistan has not been great since 2017, I agree. But Pakistan has fielded a relatively similar team since then over the years and it is a much improved team compared to the dark ages of the early 2010s. If we had gone back to being as poor as we used to be, I would be inclined to seeing the merits in your argument. But this team has generally been on the up.

P.S. you must remember people usually overstate how poor we were in 2019. Pakistan was the only team to beat both finalists in the WC. Convincingly too.

I'm asking what does CT win represent ? Does it show that you are the best team in ODIs? Nope .


Do any fans other than Pakistani fans celebrate CT win apart from Pakistani fans?

Nobody cares about CT performances as much as Pakistani fans do.

Why are South Africa called perennial chokers despite the fact they were favourites in '98 and they did win the CT ss favourites.

Saffer fans rarely talk about CT 1998

Because nobody even remembers how they won that tournament .

CT win is rarely ever referenced even in our useless, over-the-top media that tries to over aggrandize our cricket achievements.

It doesn't exist in the public's psyche.

Aussie fans rarely talk about CT 06 or 09.

Indian fans, even if a few do talk about '13 it's usually in reference to why it was our last ICC trophy rather than tournament itself.

Heck, even Caribbean fans don't talk about CT 2004.

As for 2019 World Cup, there as no chance for PAK in that World Cup.

Celebrating group stage win over England is like Bangladesh celebrating group stage win over 1999 finalist Pakistan.

At the end of the day, you finished 5th in a World Cup in which only max. 6 teams even had half a chance at winning the Cup.

Just like it's gonna be this time.

There's gonna be 6 teams with a realistic chance and if one of them does not make semis, it doesn't matter if you beat the eventual winner in the group stage.

Unlike CT, World Cups are much more predictable.

Against top 8 sides,

Has a team been among the fastest scoring sides in the last 2 years ?

Have they got a strong winning record in the last 2 years?

Have they got enough experienced players in the squad?(75+ caps)


Is the team among the top 2 ranked sides going into a World Cup?


The team that goes into the World Cup most answers in the affirmative is most likely to win.


CT is about winning 4 matches . That's like winning a tri series tournament .

PAK fans thought PAK were favourites in 99 based on PAK winning Pepsi Cup and Coca Cola Cup just before the World Cup.

Even in those tournaments, Pakistan beat only India thoroughly but were not as convincing against Lanka and England who both fought back and won against PAK.

And this was after 2 years of poor performances generally. India and NZ were the only teams ranked below PAK going into that World Cup and PAK bashed India thoroughly .

What did winning Pepsi and Coca Cola Cup prove? Nothing .


SL should be Asian champs in T20 cricket. They convincingly best PAK twice and knocked India out .

Did anyone even talk about SL going into World T20 ? Nope.

You can take pride in an "ICC" tournament win in the CT but ultimately it's a very poor measure of where teams stand and it is no guarantee for World Cup success, just like Asia Cups and Coca Cola Cups aren't.

If you can't get your hands on the World Cup, every ranking and every other tournament win is absolutely pointless.

 

[Technics 1210]

Keep up the Jazba MashaAllah! Not long to go now.

Cannot wait!

Especially when the Pakistan national anthem will be played in India!

Inshallah Pakistan will prove it doubters, and haters, wrong!

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Cannot wait!

Especially when the Pakistan national anthem will be played in India!

Inshallah Pakistan will prove it doubters, and haters, wrong!

This is Pakistan's best chance since 1992. Personally don't think PAK will make the semis but it's still your best chance

 

[jnaveen1980]

This is Pakistan's best chance since 1992. Personally don't think PAK will make the semis but it's still your best chance

Never under-estimate of power of SENA failures in Subcontinent. In 2011 England almost hunted down 338 against India match ended in tie only t o lose against Ireland and Bangladesh.

 

[Technics 1210]

This is Pakistan's best chance since 1992. Personally don't think PAK will make the semis but it's still your best chance

Every team has a chance, it is a question of probability.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Never under-estimate of power of SENA failures in Subcontinent. In 2011 England almost hunted down 338 against India match ended in tie only t o lose against Ireland and Bangladesh.

Never underestimate them, especially Australia. Won in 87, finals in 96.

England had no chance to begin with. Just didn't have the team to compete. It was a bit of a surprise to everyone when they started off well .

But, predictably, guys got injured and they were struggling to beat even Windies before getting humiliated by SL in a QF once again.

Very similar to PAK in 2011. Didn't have a hope or a prayer but those tacky Lankan wickets suited their spin trio and they surprised SL and outskilled OZ. Easy quarters too against WI .

But all their failings caught up with them in the semis - horrendous catching , terrible middle order batting etc. etc.

 

[heddie19]

I'm asking what does CT win represent ? Does it show that you are the best team in ODIs? Nope .


Do any fans other than Pakistani fans celebrate CT win apart from Pakistani fans?

Nobody cares about CT performances as much as Pakistani fans do.

Why are South Africa called perennial chokers despite the fact they were favourites in '98 and they did win the CT ss favourites.

Saffer fans rarely talk about CT 1998

Because nobody even remembers how they won that tournament .

CT win is rarely ever referenced even in our useless, over-the-top media that tries to over aggrandize our cricket achievements.

It doesn't exist in the public's psyche.

Aussie fans rarely talk about CT 06 or 09.

Indian fans, even if a few do talk about '13 it's usually in reference to why it was our last ICC trophy rather than tournament itself.

Heck, even Caribbean fans don't talk about CT 2004.

As for 2019 World Cup, there as no chance for PAK in that World Cup.

Celebrating group stage win over England is like Bangladesh celebrating group stage win over 1999 finalist Pakistan.

At the end of the day, you finished 5th in a World Cup in which only max. 6 teams even had half a chance at winning the Cup.

Just like it's gonna be this time.

There's gonna be 6 teams with a realistic chance and if one of them does not make semis, it doesn't matter if you beat the eventual winner in the group stage.

Unlike CT, World Cups are much more predictable.

Against top 8 sides,

Has a team been among the fastest scoring sides in the last 2 years ?

Have they got a strong winning record in the last 2 years?

Have they got enough experienced players in the squad?(75+ caps)


Is the team among the top 2 ranked sides going into a World Cup?


The team that goes into the World Cup most answers in the affirmative is most likely to win.


CT is about winning 4 matches . That's like winning a tri series tournament .

PAK fans thought PAK were favourites in 99 based on PAK winning Pepsi Cup and Coca Cola Cup just before the World Cup.

Even in those tournaments, Pakistan beat only India thoroughly but were not as convincing against Lanka and England who both fought back and won against PAK.

And this was after 2 years of poor performances generally. India and NZ were the only teams ranked below PAK going into that World Cup and PAK bashed India thoroughly .

What did winning Pepsi and Coca Cola Cup prove? Nothing .


SL should be Asian champs in T20 cricket. They convincingly best PAK twice and knocked India out .

Did anyone even talk about SL going into World T20 ? Nope.

You can take pride in an "ICC" tournament win in the CT but ultimately it's a very poor measure of where teams stand and it is no guarantee for World Cup success, just like Asia Cups and Coca Cola Cups aren't.

If you can't get your hands on the World Cup, every ranking and every other tournament win is absolutely pointless.

By your logic, winning the WC doesn't prove that you're the best team in the world because you play 10-11 games to win that tournament while you play 4-6x games in bilaterals for the course of the same 4 year.

Similarly, are you trying to imply that India winning the Asia Cup convincingly proves nothing?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

By your logic, winning the WC doesn't prove that you're the best team in the world because you play 10-11 games to win that tournament while you play 4-6x games in bilaterals for the course of the same 4 year.

Similarly, are you trying to imply that India winning the Asia Cup convincingly proves nothing?

Yep. India winning Asia Cup means absolutely nothing in the ODI scheme of things .

Do you know when SL begane a serious threat in ODIs? 1992 onwards.

Do you know that SL won the 1986 Asia Cup by beating a PAK team which had Imran, Miandad, Saleem Malik, Abdul Qadir, Wasim Akram in the final.

When they were minnows .


Did that make them a better ODI side than Pakistan and India going into the 87 World Cup?

Can we call Imran a choker for losing that Asia Cup final to an absolute minnow? Of course not.

I'm sure even SL fans are not aware of that now or even Pakistani fans for that matter.

Similarly , a consistently #7 Windies side won 2004 CT and reached final of 2006 CT .

This was in the 2007 World Cup cycle which was to be played in West Indies itself.

Nobody was talking about WI's CT performances and their ODI side at the time of the World Cup in 2007 even though CT has happened only a few months earlier.

They were expected to lose every game in the Super Eight except against BD and Ireland and that's exactly what happened.

 

[Technics 1210]

On the topic of flukes, the only fluke WC win in the history of the tournament was England 2019.

Every other WC winner won the final by beating the opposition score, except England in the 2019 WC.

England did not beat NZ score in 2019 final, and in the end England were World champions due to a tournament technicality based on number of boundaries.

This Is why there will always be an asterisks on England's 2019 WC win.

It was the mothership of flukes.

 

[Technics 1210]

Look at all the hate Pakistan team generates, well Pakistan must be doing something right then!

Past performance is not an indication of future performance - FACT. Australia have now lost 5 ODIs on the trott, want to rule them out already? Thought so.

What matters is the performance on the day, and on each day until the WC is won!

And remember, Pakistan does NOT need to beat India to win the WC. 1992, and 2009, prove this.

Apart from Pakistan lifting the WC, I am looking forward to Nasir Hussain's commentary during the Pakistan games! Switch your speakers off haters!

 

[SM1989]

There are already enough posts on this forum that have proved your “fluke” theory to be wrong.

In 2017, Pakistan was the best team on display. We convincingly beat every team that we did beat in the day, away from home at that, and then we even more convincingly so beat India in the final. Batting, bowling, fielding, captaincy, heck even reviews to the third umpire were absolutely perfect.

If there were any concerns about Pakistan fluking its way to the final, Pakistan proved them wrong with its overall, almost-perfect performance, which is rare for Pakistan because we only just win the barest of margins.

If anything, as the poster above has argued, England’s 2019 final was a fluke if there has ever been one — playing on home soil and then winning the way they did. Probably the most anticlimactic win there ever was.

I won’t comment on 1992 because I wasn’t born yet.

Correction 2017 was a massive fluke with many things going Pakistan's way:

- Match against South Africa - Rain arrived just as the south african bowlers were looking dangerous and a batting collapse was on the horizon. Pak won on DLS method as the match never resumed after the rain came.

- Match against Sri Lanka - Pakistan were down and out, but Sarfraz was dropped twice.

- Semi Final against England - A sluggish pitch was prepared which the England batsmen could not settle on and hence Pakistan got the advantage.

- Final against India - Bumrah's no ball reprieved Fakhar who then went on to win the match for Pak.

 

[TheSultan]

If people want to keep pointing to dropped catches to prove 2017 was a fluke then ok. India fluked 2011 WC because Pakistan dropped 5 catches.

Works both ways weirdos

 

[TheSultan]

And oh sorry - poor England couldn’t play in Cardiff otherwise they would have smashed us. I mean it just gets really silly doesn’t it. So England can only play on a certain type of pitch? Well they deserve to lose then!

 

[Usman Chadda]

Correction 2017 was a massive fluke with many things going Pakistan's way:

- Match against South Africa - Rain arrived just as the south african bowlers were looking dangerous and a batting collapse was on the horizon. Pak won on DLS method as the match never resumed after the rain came.

- Match against Sri Lanka - Pakistan were down and out, but Sarfraz was dropped twice.

- Semi Final against England - A sluggish pitch was prepared which the England batsmen could not settle on and hence Pakistan got the advantage.

- Final against India - Bumrah's no ball reprieved Fakhar who then went on to win the match for Pak.

By this logic, India had no business going through to the final since Tendulkar was dropped five times in that match, and his score was vital to the final total.

Bumrah’s no-ball was Fakhar’s fault?

 

[SM1989]

By this logic, India had no business going through to the final since Tendulkar was dropped five times in that match, and his score was vital to the final total.

Bumrah’s no-ball was Fakhar’s fault?

Correct, Pakistan had no excuse of losing that semi final. Pakistan lost that semi final, India didn’t win it.

Bumrah’s no ball was not Fakhar’s fault, but it shows how Pakistan got fortunate.

 

[jnaveen1980]

In my view this is the most open tournament. But i can confidently say some teams won't win the world cup even with a lot of things going their way. South Africa won't win for obviously well known reasons. NZ same.


My opinion on Pakistan. If i were a Pak fan this is how i would view it. Pakistan usually had those middle over enforcers like Shahid Afridi, Saqlain, Ajmal somebody or the other always. This is probably the first time they lack such bowlers. That is how they used to bully SENA teams in ICC events. That leaves a massive vacuum. It could lead to overbowling injury prone seamers and it can cause them breaking down. So many things can go haywire as they are on thin ice going into the tournament. Although Pakistan seems to have "depth" lot of them are bits and pieces players who may end up contributing nothing in both departments. Do they have match winners? Yes they do. Shaheen Shah Afridi. Haris Rauf under right conditions may do something. Iftikar is my wild card pick. He will play atleast one outrageous innings. He has X factor. Other Batsmen? I am not sure. they will rely on bowlers restricting the opposition as Pakistan teams is not designed to post above par total like England. Imam is still batting like how one would bat in 1990. Fakar hit or miss. Babar steady eddy. I don't think anyone will be sweating big unless he is chasing 250 total. There are some low ceilings for some individuals. it will add more pressure on players with higher cielings (Shaheen, Babar..)

 

[Cricket Warrior]

One most imprtant thing they dont have now right now is the confidence.

There is only 1 thing which can lift them up and that is a win against India at Ahmedabad.

 

[mumtaz]

Pakistan is a good team this time around, certainly better than 2019. England and India are much better though. So please stop comparing them to these two teams.

I think Pakistan is the best of the rest though. Making the semifinals should be par for them. If we somehow avoid England or India in the semis, then we can even make the final. I don't think we have the quality to win two high pressure knockouts at the end of a long tournament.

 

[Mamoon]

Your argument is almost convincing but it loses its merits when you actually analyse the data.

Stars align for a game, maybe two, three at best — but an entire tournament? Impossible. That requires you to be a good team.

Again, your argument also fails regarding the England match. If England were the better team, England would have beat Pakistan on any surface. Slow, fast, bouncing, wet, dry or lava. If anything, being the worse team, Pakistan should have fallen like a deck of cards on a difficult pitch. Both teams played on the same pitch, Pakistan were the better team. End of.

You must also remember that this was a tournament and not any meaningless bilateral or even a tri-series. Every team was playing their best side and playing to win. Pakistan won fair and square, there were no matches handed to them. South Africa were ranked number 1, India was playing their GOAT side, England was England and also at home. You can’t look over these things and ignore the subtleties.

But even then, say I buy your argument until the final… the way Pakistan convincingly covered all bases like it never has before in the final, that shut up all arguments of it being a fluke. A team that flukes its way to the final doesn’t win the final. A team that flukes its way to the final and actually wins the final doesn’t win it like that. It wins because the match was tied and it had scored more boundaries. It wins it because the other team has injuries. It wins it because it rains. It wins it because lightning strikes.

But Pakistan won it more convincingly than any final has been won.

Three good games can win you the CT, that is why it is a tournament that has seen a lot of flukes over its history.

West Indies of 2004 would have never won a World Cup in a billion years. Same goes for New Zealand of 2000 and Pakistan of 2017.

2017 CT was one of the all-time great flukes.

 

[Mamoon]

If people want to keep pointing to dropped catches to prove 2017 was a fluke then ok. India fluked 2011 WC because Pakistan dropped 5 catches.

Works both ways weirdos

India was a heavy favorite for the 2011 World Cup. That Indian team would have won a World Cup in subcontinent conditions 8/10 times.

Same goes for England and the 2019 World Cup. Sure, both India and England rode their luck at various moments, but every team needs some luck to win a tournament.

However, the same Pakistan team in the same conditions would probably win the CT 1 in 100 attempts, hence it was a fluke like West Indies winning in 2004 and New Zealand winning in 2000.

The nature of CT allows for such flukes to happen that you would rarely see in World Cups.

 

[Mamoon]

What was the culture of the team pre 1992? Will you shed some light on it?

Pakistan under the tutelage of Imran Khan in the mid to late 80s was the most professional and consistent Pakistan team in history.

The 1987 World Cup in the subcontinent was Pakistan’s World Cup. They were the best team before the tournament and were the best team in the tournament.

Unfortunately, they choked in the semifinal against Australia in Lahore. I firmly believe that if Pakistan had won the 1987 World Cup, the next decade would have been different and the culture of Pakistan cricket would not have been what it is today.

Pakistan would have been more professional, they would be more focused on building a process of success rather than romanticizing Cornered Tigers nonsense, celebrating inconsistency as unpredictability and glorifying one minute up, one minute down type crap.

Pakistan needs a captain that has the cojones to shed this mentality. A captain who can stare the media and the ex players in the face and say that Pakistan is not unpredictable, Pakistan is not mercurial, Pakistan will not be one minute down and Pakistan will not be a Cornered Tiger.

Instead, Pakistan will be the tiger that always corners others and will always be up.

A captain that couldn’t give two hoots about the 1992 World Cup.

Pakistan cricket will fly and soar new heights the day this happens.

 

[Mamoon]

1992 was no fluke. Pakistan was one of the pre-tournament favourites.

We were a very consistent side in the lead up. Winning the Nehru Cup 89/90, winning the Australasia Cup 1990, final of the tri series World Series Cup, winning multiple Sharjah Cups.

Waqar and wasim were known for their dominance and Saleem Malik was (after Dean Jones) considered the best ODI batsman in the world.

We just had a horrid start due to instability with Waqar and Imran’s injuries.

Who was more deserving? England? NZ?

England’s player of the tournament was a fat Botham who only had his bowling success because he was so slow, players played him too early.

They both just capitalised on Aus and Pak being off colour and WI in decline.

If anyone really thinks England and NZ with their mix of dibbly dobblers and mediocre bits n pieces allrounders had enough quality to maintain their performance over the tournament was kidding themselves.

Pakistan were one of the favourites, they just needed to start firing on all cylinders which they eventually did. Yes had a bit of luck with results going their way and the England washout, but people conveniently forget that Pakistan lost to SA because of that ridiculous rain rule too so it works both ways.

Anyone who calls it a fluke didnt watch it at the time and just read some scorecards and match reports which were pushed by a very biased English media at the time. #MillenialAnalysis

The England and South Africa games cannot be juxtaposed because the situations were quite different.

Pakistan were favorites to beat South Africa before the rain intervention but it was far from a foregone conclusion. They could have still bottled the chase.

On the other hand, they didn’t stand a chance in the world of defending 75 against England.

Pakistan making the semis in such circumstances was definitely a fluke, but the 92 win was not nearly as big a fluke as the 2017 one because as you explained, it was a really good team and if that World Cup is played 100 times in the same conditions, Pakistan would have a solid chance of winning it multiple times.

The same cannot be said about the 2017 Champions Trophy.

1992 was a circumstantial fluke; 2017 was an existential fluke.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Pakistan under the tutelage of Imran Khan in the mid to late 80s was the most professional and consistent Pakistan team in history.

The 1987 World Cup in the subcontinent was Pakistan’s World Cup. They were the best team before the tournament and were the best team in the tournament.

Unfortunately, they choked in the semifinal against Australia in Lahore. I firmly believe that if Pakistan had won the 1987 World Cup, the next decade would have been different and the culture of Pakistan cricket would not have been what it is today.

Pakistan would have been more professional, they would be more focused on building a process of success rather than romanticizing Cornered Tigers nonsense, celebrating inconsistency as unpredictability and glorifying one minute up, one minute down type crap.

Pakistan needs a captain that has the cojones to shed this mentality. A captain who can stare the media and the ex players in the face and say that Pakistan is not unpredictable, Pakistan is not mercurial, Pakistan will not be one minute down and Pakistan will not be a Cornered Tiger.

Instead, Pakistan will be the tiger that always corners others and will always be up.

A captain that couldn’t give two hoots about the 1992 World Cup.

Pakistan cricket will fly and soar new heights the day this happens.

POTW

 

[VForVendetta]

POTW

Agreed, word by word perfectly conveyed.

 

[TheSultan]

Pakistan under the tutelage of Imran Khan in the mid to late 80s was the most professional and consistent Pakistan team in history.

The 1987 World Cup in the subcontinent was Pakistan’s World Cup. They were the best team before the tournament and were the best team in the tournament.

Unfortunately, they choked in the semifinal against Australia in Lahore. I firmly believe that if Pakistan had won the 1987 World Cup, the next decade would have been different and the culture of Pakistan cricket would not have been what it is today.

Pakistan would have been more professional, they would be more focused on building a process of success rather than romanticizing Cornered Tigers nonsense, celebrating inconsistency as unpredictability and glorifying one minute up, one minute down type crap.

Pakistan needs a captain that has the cojones to shed this mentality. A captain who can stare the media and the ex players in the face and say that Pakistan is not unpredictable, Pakistan is not mercurial, Pakistan will not be one minute down and Pakistan will not be a Cornered Tiger.

Instead, Pakistan will be the tiger that always corners others and will always be up.

A captain that couldn’t give two hoots about the 1992 World Cup.

Pakistan cricket will fly and soar new heights the day this happens.

You make some very valid points, but there’s a couple of clarifications here.

Agreed about everything to do with 1987, but I don’t think the downward spiral from 1992 onwards was due to romanticising the “cornered tigers”, it was ill discipline of the younger individuals that came out of the late 80s / early 90s.

Our players are ill disciplined by nature, but the glue at the time was the core of Imran, Javed and Saleem Malik. The slow removal of these 3 caused the ill discipline to take dominance during the 90s.

Even after Imran left, the team captained by Javed in 1992 was still quite a professional outfit. As soon as Javed was unfairly removed from captaincy in 1993 just before the tour of the Caribbean cracks started to appear. Almost immediately the first major incident happened in Grenada where our 4 bowlers got caught smoking marijuana and jailed for a night. That period spiralled out of control, leading to infighting and the eventual mutiny against Wasim Akram.

Salim Malik brought a bit more stability, but the cracks were there ready to be opened. As well as the looming shadow of matchfixing (which incidentally affected all teams, not just Pakistan)

There were other periods where Pakistan threatened to work together as a professional outfit, but trouble was never far away. The 1996 team that thrashed England was a great side when it worked together.

The 1999 team that wasim assembled (over the previous 12 months was also a great side) but they were notorious at throwing away dead rubbers, thinking they were so great that they could pick and choose when they turn up. They got punished for this arrogance in the final. I firmly believe Pakistan cricket has never fully recovered from that loss. Psychologically that and the subsequent Hobart defeat in Aus mentally destroyed us.

Where you are correct is that our more recent teams that have been cobbled together without any thinking go in to every tournament in the hit and hope mentality of evoking the spirit of the “cornered tigers”. Even our fans on social media “similarities between 1992 and 20XX” every ICC tournament.

And you are also correct that we need a captain to do away with this.

Imran talked about cornered tigers for that tournament for that moment. It was more belief in his matchwinners to come to the fore. Right now, even if you wanted to, you don’t have the matchwinners to do so. In order to perform like “cornered tigers” you have to be tigers in the first place! Our players are like frightened kittens.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan has been labeled as the "unpredictables". We are unpredictable, to be honest. When it is our day then we will blow away the opposition and when it is not the one for us then we will get thrashed by Ireland or Zimbabwe even. I think Pakistan has got the caliber to be the finalist but they have to bring their A-game starting tomorrow. Don't take it lite.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

You make some very valid points, but there’s a couple of clarifications here.

Agreed about everything to do with 1987, but I don’t think the downward spiral from 1992 onwards was due to romanticising the “cornered tigers”, it was ill discipline of the younger individuals that came out of the late 80s / early 90s.

Our players are ill disciplined by nature, but the glue at the time was the core of Imran, Javed and Saleem Malik. The slow removal of these 3 caused the ill discipline to take dominance during the 90s.

Even after Imran left, the team captained by Javed in 1992 was still quite a professional outfit. As soon as Javed was unfairly removed from captaincy in 1993 just before the tour of the Caribbean cracks started to appear. Almost immediately the first major incident happened in Grenada where our 4 bowlers got caught smoking marijuana and jailed for a night. That period spiralled out of control, leading to infighting and the eventual mutiny against Wasim Akram.

Salim Malik brought a bit more stability, but the cracks were there ready to be opened. As well as the looming shadow of matchfixing (which incidentally affected all teams, not just Pakistan)

There were other periods where Pakistan threatened to work together as a professional outfit, but trouble was never far away. The 1996 team that thrashed England was a great side when it worked together.

The 1999 team that wasim assembled (over the previous 12 months was also a great side) but they were notorious at throwing away dead rubbers, thinking they were so great that they could pick and choose when they turn up. They got punished for this arrogance in the final. I firmly believe Pakistan cricket has never fully recovered from that loss. Psychologically that and the subsequent Hobart defeat in Aus mentally destroyed us.

Where you are correct is that our more recent teams that have been cobbled together without any thinking go in to every tournament in the hit and hope mentality of evoking the spirit of the “cornered tigers”. Even our fans on social media “similarities between 1992 and 20XX” every ICC tournament.

And you are also correct that we need a captain to do away with this.

Imran talked about cornered tigers for that tournament for that moment. It was more belief in his matchwinners to come to the fore. Right now, even if you wanted to, you don’t have the matchwinners to do so. In order to perform like “cornered tigers” you have to be tigers in the first place! Our players are like frightened kittens.

Yep 1999 was so awful. Those 2 losses still haunt us and I think we might have dominated for a while had we won those 2. Also mentally the scarring v Australia has never healed. It won't until we beat them in a WC knockout.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Yep 1999 was so awful. Those 2 losses still haunt us and I think we might have dominated for a while had we won those 2. Also mentally the scarring v Australia has never healed. It won't until we beat them in a WC knockout.

Yeah, we are still feeling the aftershocks of that defeat. Losing in KO's against Aussies is becoming more of a trend now like we did in last year's mT20 World Cup. That was totally a mental face-off which we lost.

 

[Rana]

In my view this is the most open tournament. But i can confidently say some teams won't win the world cup even with a lot of things going their way. South Africa won't win for obviously well known reasons. NZ same.


My opinion on Pakistan. If i were a Pak fan this is how i would view it. Pakistan usually had those middle over enforcers like Shahid Afridi, Saqlain, Ajmal somebody or the other always. This is probably the first time they lack such bowlers. That is how they used to bully SENA teams in ICC events. That leaves a massive vacuum. It could lead to overbowling injury prone seamers and it can cause them breaking down. So many things can go haywire as they are on thin ice going into the tournament. Although Pakistan seems to have "depth" lot of them are bits and pieces players who may end up contributing nothing in both departments. Do they have match winners? Yes they do. Shaheen Shah Afridi. Haris Rauf under right conditions may do something. Iftikar is my wild card pick. He will play atleast one outrageous innings. He has X factor. Other Batsmen? I am not sure. they will rely on bowlers restricting the opposition as Pakistan teams is not designed to post above par total like England. Imam is still batting like how one would bat in 1990. Fakar hit or miss. Babar steady eddy. I don't think anyone will be sweating big unless he is chasing 250 total. There are some low ceilings for some individuals. it will add more pressure on players with higher cielings (Shaheen, Babar..)

Good point

Pakistan’s middle/spin attack is the weakest it has ever been.

Hoping for Usama Mir to come good

 

[BouncerGuy]

Usama mir hasn't had a lot of opportunities because Shadab is there. Usama could have played a few games of the Asia Cup but he was kept on the bench. He can be good asset but he needs to show his form whenever he gets a chance.

 

[DJhant]

Pakistan is always dangerous on the big stage, no matter what their ranking or form before coming to it. Hopefully, they come to their form after our match is over

 

[FearlessRoar]

Yes, I am satisfied with the induction of Saud Shakeel, Abdullah Shafique and Iftimania. I am looking forward to their performance.

 

[Rana]

Pakistan is always dangerous on the big stage, no matter what their ranking or form before coming to it. Hopefully, they come to their form after our match is over

That was a different breed of Pakistani cricketers

For your sake, I hope what you say is true

 

[heddie19]

Pakistan under the tutelage of Imran Khan in the mid to late 80s was the most professional and consistent Pakistan team in history.

The 1987 World Cup in the subcontinent was Pakistan’s World Cup. They were the best team before the tournament and were the best team in the tournament.

Unfortunately, they choked in the semifinal against Australia in Lahore. I firmly believe that if Pakistan had won the 1987 World Cup, the next decade would have been different and the culture of Pakistan cricket would not have been what it is today.

Pakistan would have been more professional, they would be more focused on building a process of success rather than romanticizing Cornered Tigers nonsense, celebrating inconsistency as unpredictability and glorifying one minute up, one minute down type crap.

Pakistan needs a captain that has the cojones to shed this mentality. A captain who can stare the media and the ex players in the face and say that Pakistan is not unpredictable, Pakistan is not mercurial, Pakistan will not be one minute down and Pakistan will not be a Cornered Tiger.

Instead, Pakistan will be the tiger that always corners others and will always be up.

A captain that couldn’t give two hoots about the 1992 World Cup.

Pakistan cricket will fly and soar new heights the day this happens.

Thank you for letting me know about the stuff when I wasn't even born. I believe the current Captain is quite similar to what you said. He has made this team consistent not mercurial. Also don't remember him talking about 1992 either.

 

[Mamoon]

Thank you for letting me know about the stuff when I wasn't even born. I believe the current Captain is quite similar to what you said. He has made this team consistent not mercurial. Also don't remember him talking about 1992 either.

I’m happy to see that Babar doesn’t play the “we do better than we are underdogs” nonsense card that most of the previous captains did.

However, he needs to more ruthless when it comes to some of his underperforming friends.

I might cop a lot of flak for this but I don’t think Babar is nearly as bad a captain as he is made out to be. Personally I would be happy to see him continue as an all-format captain for years to come because Pakistan will not start winning instantly the day a new captain is installed.

People always need excuses and scapegoats, but this Pakistan white ball team is the best in a long time but still a couple of top players short of competing with the heavyweights.

 

[Rana]

I’m happy to see that Babar doesn’t play the “we do better than we are underdogs” nonsense card that most of the previous captains did.

However, he needs to more ruthless when it comes to some of his underperforming friends.

I might cop a lot of flak for this but I don’t think Babar is nearly as bad a captain as he is made out to be. Personally I would be happy to see him continue as an all-format captain for years to come because Pakistan will not start winning instantly the day a new captain is installed.

People always need excuses and scapegoats, but this Pakistan white ball team is the best in a long time but still a couple of top players short of competing with the heavyweights.

Yeah no thanks.

He needs to be relieved of the T20 captaincy

His favouritism is beautifully exposed in Test and ODI so he can keep these two. In T20 he has been a nightmare

 

[TheSultan]

The England and South Africa games cannot be juxtaposed because the situations were quite different.

Pakistan were favorites to beat South Africa before the rain intervention but it was far from a foregone conclusion. They could have still bottled the chase.

On the other hand, they didn’t stand a chance in the world of defending 75 against England.

Pakistan making the semis in such circumstances was definitely a fluke, but the 92 win was not nearly as big a fluke as the 2017 one because as you explained, it was a really good team and if that World Cup is played 100 times in the same conditions, Pakistan would have a solid chance of winning it multiple times.

The same cannot be said about the 2017 Champions Trophy.

1992 was a circumstantial fluke; 2017 was an existential fluke.

You’re basing all of this on what ifs - we can’t do that, we have to judge what happened. When you go in to what-ifs, you can go in to space.

If Pakistan didn’t drop 5 catches in 2011
If Herschelle Gibbs didn’t drop Waugh in 99
If those overthrows off Stokes’s bat didn’t happen in 2019
If, if, if…

The point is what happened, happened.

In 2017, yes Pakistan’s win was unexpected but you can’t say they were undeserving. They won both Semi, and Final in very convincing fashion. They found a combination in the middle of the tournament and carried it through to win.

In your world, you might as well give the trophy to the no1 ranked side prior to the tournament. The whole point of tournaments is for teams to try and win despite what’s gone on before - why else enter a tournament?

And to get even more brutal. If a team is ranked no1 and doesn’t win a tournament that’s a more damning indictment on them and their mental state. Chokers.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Pakistan under the tutelage of Imran Khan in the mid to late 80s was the most professional and consistent Pakistan team in history.

The 1987 World Cup in the subcontinent was Pakistan’s World Cup. They were the best team before the tournament and were the best team in the tournament.

Unfortunately, they choked in the semifinal against Australia in Lahore. I firmly believe that if Pakistan had won the 1987 World Cup, the next decade would have been different and the culture of Pakistan cricket would not have been what it is today.

Pakistan would have been more professional, they would be more focused on building a process of success rather than romanticizing Cornered Tigers nonsense, celebrating inconsistency as unpredictability and glorifying one minute up, one minute down type crap.

Pakistan needs a captain that has the cojones to shed this mentality. A captain who can stare the media and the ex players in the face and say that Pakistan is not unpredictable, Pakistan is not mercurial, Pakistan will not be one minute down and Pakistan will not be a Cornered Tiger.

Instead, Pakistan will be the tiger that always corners others and will always be up.

A captain that couldn’t give two hoots about the 1992 World Cup.

Pakistan cricket will fly and soar new heights the day this happens.

Don't agree with this.

England and West Indies would have been higher ranked sides back in 1987 using the current ranking. So no, Pakistan were not favourites in that World Cup.

Australia would have been ranked lower at 4. And you could possibly argued that Pakistan choked in the semis when Steve Waugh smashed that bowler whose name I'm forgetting.

Which is why I don't think Imran was a particularly great tactician.

But a constant theme in World Cups has been that lower ranked sides that bat very aggressively often catch higher ranked sides off guard and knock them out. NZ in 1992, OZ in 87, India in 83, SL in 96, NZ in 99, NZ in 2015.


And Pakistan were absolutely favourites in 1992. They had a great bilateral record and your 1991 ODI side was probably the best in your history. Waqar and peak Aaqib made it a powerful ODI unit. Saleem Malik was an extremely aggresive batter too.

Also ranked #2 going into the World Cup.

It's the only World Cup you were clear favourites above everyone else.

Outside chance in 1983 and 2023

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Pakistan is not looking in a good shape, how they are bowling now raising serious concerns that they might not get into the semis.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Former England cricketer Nasser Hussain has expressed his views on Pakistan's unpredictable cricket style ahead of the ODI World Cup 2023, acknowledging the team's potential to both success and face unexpected defeats.

While talking on a YouTube channel, Nasser particularly highlighted Pakistan's first match against the Netherlands in the upcoming tournament, acknowledging that Pakistan could face a potential defeat against the European side.

I think they Pakistan are very good tournament side. They have got Netherlands up from first game, they could lose that. That is Pakistan for you. But then they'll go on a run. You look at the last World T20. They were out of it and then suddenly they are in the final. They are mercurial because that is the brand and style of cricket they play. They are incredibly watchable side, Nasser said.

Furthermore, Nasser emphasized that Pakistan can be a force to reckon with if they achieve above-par scores against any opponent in the World Cup. If they get an above par score against you, any team in the World Cup, you are in trouble, he concluded.

 

[sweep_shot]

Pakistan definitely have the team to win the trophy.

All 6 top teams can win it (Australia, England, India, Pakistan, South Africa, and New Zealand).

But, strong favorites are England and Australia.

 

[Bilal7]

People need to lay off the bowlers. These are super flat pitches that offer some movement in the first few overs. Every bowler is going to get smacked at some point.

 

[ChennaiFan]

Yes, Pakistan has what it takes to win the WC 2023. They have a good team for the Indian conditions. Both Pakistan and South Africa generally play well in India.
England typically don't play that well here. But, due to their players' participation in IPL in recent years, I expect them to be at home. India too has a good team for the local conditions.

Hence, I expect one team from India, Pakistan, England, and South Africa to win this World Cup.

 

[BouncerGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1709071090088063151

Looks like Pakistani Boys are ready.

 

[happydavy]

I strongly feel Pakistan team will bounce back and get to semis. Thing is that in this WC most teams have struggled to chase targets over 300, which is surprising since the general view is thanks to T20, it should be easier to chase big targets. But certainly that hasn't happened and even in anticipated close matches, teams like Australia, SA and England have just drawn blank when chasing big targets.

Pakistan, inspite of all its shortcomings and playing 90s kinda games in the first 20 overs have actually chased very well. Yes they lost to Aus but they ran close and at one point with Iftikhar sixes, were actually favorites to win the game. So Pakistan is doing something right, which has gone unnoticed amidst this excessive but understandable criticism, and i would put money on Pakistan winning their next 3 matches. Pakistan is majorly competing with Australia at this point but if they win against Africa then all of a sudden SA will again be very vulnerable with 2 losses and match against India and NZ to happen. I think baring India, the next 3 teams in semis would have won 6 games each and not more.

 

[Major]

The are in the hunt, but i can bet money here that they wont win the tournamnet. Tournaments are won on the basis of good captaincy.

 

[Sunzi]

Agreed. Im positively surprised with our batting efforts, save for the performance vs India (which, in fairness, was decently positioned though the tempo should have been better).

Our bowling is too weak. We cannot expect to chase 300+ every time we bat. As surprising as the batting has been, it is not that dependable - infact no team will reliably want to chase 300 more often than not, even if, on paper, they're well equipped to (India).

You can talk about tempo, aggression and 90s mindset - and I'll agree, but we have a method that has seen us score 300+ chasing consecutively... however our bowling is digging us in to holes that our batting isn't good enough to get us out of.

 

[JattMaula]

Pakistan surely deserve credit for their spunk while chasing. A record chase and almost bettering that again is praiseworthy.

It's their bowling that's disappointing. Only worse attacks are SL and England.

 

[happydavy]

The are in the hunt, but i can bet money here that they wont win the tournamnet. Tournaments are won on the basis of good captaincy.

Tournaments are won based upon multiple factors from consistent performances to performing in crunch matches to luck to captaincy to multiple other factors. There isn't one thing that makes team wins, no one remembers who was the captain in 2015 wc or even 2019 wc, so as they say success has many fathers. And if Pakistan wins, all of a sudden Babar will look like a million dollar captain.

 

[Major]

Tournaments are won based upon multiple factors from consistent performances to performing in crunch matches to luck to captaincy to multiple other factors. There isn't one thing that makes team wins, no one remembers who was the captain in 2015 wc or even 2019 wc, so as they say success has many fathers. And if Pakistan wins, all of a sudden Babar will look like a million dollar captain.

everyone remembers who was the captain. Pakistan cannot win under Babar that i can bet a million dollar.

 

[happydavy]

Agreed. Im positively surprised with our batting efforts, save for the performance vs India (which, in fairness, was decently positioned though the tempo should have been better).

Our bowling is too weak. We cannot expect to chase 300+ every time we bat. As surprising as the batting has been, it is not that dependable - infact no team will reliably want to chase 300 more often than not, even if, on paper, they're well equipped to (India).

You can talk about tempo, aggression and 90s mindset - and I'll agree, but we have a method that has seen us score 300+ chasing consecutively... however our bowling is digging us in to holes that our batting isn't good enough to get us out of.

That's fine but I think it's a solvable problem. Bowling is not clicking collectively as a group right now but it can, there's enough skill in your team. Fast bowlers are bowling very well in death overs so just got good catching and one of the spinners clicking is what is needed. Pakistan big game is against SA in Chennai and if they win that, they wud be back with a bang.

 

[Sunzi]

That's fine but I think it's a solvable problem. Bowling is not clicking collectively as a group right now but it can, there's enough skill in your team. Fast bowlers are bowling very well in death overs so just got good catching and one of the spinners clicking is what is needed. Pakistan big game is against SA in Chennai and if they win that, they wud be back with a bang.

You have more confidence in my team than I do.

No spearhead. Wayward trundlers. No frontline spinner.

Above star quality, there's no fundamentals. Line, length, discipline (extras, spraying)

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

They need to win 2 out of 3 games (sa,nz,eng)
I am guessing they will steam roll afg, Bangladesh

 

[Nikhil_cric]

You have more confidence in my team than I do.

No spearhead. Wayward trundlers. No frontline spinner.

Above star quality, there's no fundamentals. Line, length, discipline (extras, spraying)

Spearhead is clearly Shaheen. Dude is struggling with issues in his action/fitness and still went against his instinct and hit perfect Chinnaswamy length after 1 over which is not his natural length

Would have put OZ under serious pressure too had it not been for a horrendous drop of Warner.

Brain dead express pacer was bowling utter nonsense and Warner and Marsh cashed in big time.

I've never seen a PAK pacer who is mentally tougher than Shaheen. Not Akhtar, not Asif, not Aamir and certainly not Naseem.

Clear bowling leader.

Him, Ifti and Rizwan are the only real tough, hard men in this side .