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Pakistan to India mass migration - Part II

We do not have the same voice as the 'first class citizens' i.e. Muslims of Pakistan.

Based on blasphemy Laws, can Non-Muslims get Masjids in Pakistan to be shut down for inciting hate speech against Non-Muslims? Can a Non-Muslim male married to a Non-Muslim female, change her religion on the NADRA card? Can school text books which call Non-Muslims as treacherous be changed?


Masjids shut down - You cannot have masjids shut down, it is not the 4 walls and the roof that incite people, its the people inside them. You have to go after the people. No muslim can "shut down" a masjid, its a preposterous suggestion.

Which text books are those? Please do tell. The only treachery I remember is that during the battle of pilassie by a muslim called Mir Jaffar against the bengali ruler Siraj ud Dawlah which paved the way for British to be established in subcontinent. Nehru is the one who is painted negatively, but then he was a devious ****.

Now you are scraping the barrel, if marriage to muslim female is one of your grievances.

So, according to you, Christians face no work or other daily discrimination that impacts their lives.... Phew that is good to know. Pakistanis are doing something right atleast.
 
So, according to you, Christians face no work or other daily discrimination that impacts their lives.... Phew that is good to know. Pakistanis are doing something right atleast.

I am sure Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. do face discrimination, as Muslims might say about life in India. So no need to thump your chest after already making Non-Muslims second-class citizens in Pakistan.
 
I am sure Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. do face discrimination, as Muslims might say about life in India. So no need to thump your chest after already making Non-Muslims second-class citizens in Pakistan.

In an aparthied state, the discrimination is very overt and oppressing on a daily level. please provide what you faced on a daily basis on the streets and work place or at school.
 
South Asians going to Australia or US or Canada or UK is a common phenomenon.Has been happening for last 70 years.But Pakistanis coming to India and seeking asylum is something Pakistan must look into.

There are many Pakistanis on this forum who go to US/UK or other western countries and enjoy equal rights but here on this thread wont suppor equal rights for Pakistani minorities.

That's a very superficial reading of the issue. These things are not unique to Pakistan but are shared by most heterogeneous developing countries, incl. India. Even though many Indians emigrate to foreign countries, we continue to hear myriad issues related to communal violence and tension. With the spade of recent attacks against Christians, they are almost under siege in India.
 
It's time for OP to wake up from his fantasy world and smell the ground realities. There will be no mass migration. The minorities are Pakistanis and we should be working to ensure they have the same rights as any other Pakistanis.
 
There is no doubt that India has failed Sikhs, Christians and Muslims at various points in its history. But let me tell you. India has also failed various other ethnicities at various times in its history. If you are going to try to paint a picture that only Muslims in India are persecuted bunch, I am just going to laugh at you.

The problem with India is it is extremely diverse in religion, race, ethnicity, language. Every possible way that people can be different, they are. Yet, there is one common goal amongst all indians. The goal to be free and the goal to try to coexist and respect each other's differences. Whether you choose to believe it or not, like it or not, the truth is that the vast majority of India still respects each other's freedoms and beliefs. If that were not the case, India would never have lasted as a democracy all these years.

Think about this. We have the most effed up politicians in the world who work every day to ruin India. They have nothing but their own self-interests in mind. Yet, in spite of their callous behavior, India has continued to survive. The reason is because there is good in the people. They see the good in each other, they somehow want to make it work and they believe in the spirit of freedom. As flawed as things are, at least there is an effort to make it work. You put 10 people in a room, there is going to be a fight. India is a country of a billion people with every possible difference that can exist. It is a miracle that the country is still free.

I can speak to this more than anybody because I am a tamilian. Often times on this forum I hear statements from some people that pakistanis and Indians are the same we share the same culture and language. These are ignorant statements and cannot be further from the truth. You only share the same language and culture with a few handful of states in India. You simply do not share our mindset and way of life. For ex: there is nothing in common between my culture and yours. We couldn't be further apart. In fact most of the rest of india could not possibly me more different than you. And that is a testament to India's success. That even within India the people come from so many different backgrounds and yet can come together in the one belief that India should continue to be a free country where everyone can live together and respect each other's beliefs and freedoms.
 
Even the most unique Minority group in Pakistan; the Kalash, that are on the brink of extinction, are abused and cursed after each Friday sermon by the Mullahs from the nearby Mosque loudspeakers. :facepalm:

See video at 8: 30 onwards.

[utube]qEXnEfdvv6s[/utube]
 
That's a very superficial reading of the issue. These things are not unique to Pakistan but are shared by most heterogeneous developing countries, incl. India. Even though many Indians emigrate to foreign countries, we continue to hear myriad issues related to communal violence and tension. With the spade of recent attacks against Christians, they are almost under siege in India.

The law in India doesnt discriminate.The constitution doesnt discriminate.Here the OP is talking about the law which allows discrimination.

And christians are hardly under siege,you can open a thread on that and i will be happy to reply about that.

Now coming to this issue,how many posters here on this thread have said that minorities in Pakistanis need to get equal rights?

Again as i have said on the very first page of this thread,Pakistani minorities are responsibility of Pakistan state and any migration to India cannot happen.
 
The law in India doesnt discriminate.The constitution doesnt discriminate.Here the OP is talking about the law which allows discrimination.

And christians are hardly under siege,you can open a thread on that and i will be happy to reply about that.

Now coming to this issue,how many posters here on this thread have said that minorities in Pakistanis need to get equal rights?

Again as i have said on the very first page of this thread,Pakistani minorities are responsibility of Pakistan state and any migration to India cannot happen.

According to India's various Christian priests they're. A cursory Google search would vindicate me. Using this thread as evidence to paint Pakistani diaspora is disingenuous at best and preposterous at worst. That's pretty basic, I thought. Other than Ahmedis I can't think of any institutional discrimination in Pakistan. And I felt [MENTION=90074]PennOne[/MENTION] as an Ahmedi reflected very eloquently on that above.

As for the OP, I have made my views known above. I'd take his opinions with a grain of salt.
 
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Even the most unique Minority group in Pakistan; the Kalash, that are on the brink of extinction, are abused and cursed after each Friday sermon by the Mullahs from the nearby Mosque loudspeakers. :facepalm:

See video at 8: 30 onwards.

[utube]qEXnEfdvv6s[/utube]

Stop deflecting and running away from what I asked. You accused Pakistan of being an apartheid state, thus tell us how you have faced descrimination overtly in your daily life at work, travel, locality or school.
 
Just to expand a bit on above. Does discrimination exist in Pakistan. Of course, it does. As it does in every other heterogeneous, developing country. Singling out Pakistan is quite the junk science.
 
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While the OP is probably a Pakistani minority but his views seem to be on the same level as a Muslim saying that the Western world is out to get all Muslims and then points to invasions of Iraq and Afganistan as proof.

Both are conspiracies and have little basin in fact on a grander scale
 
The law in India doesnt discriminate.The constitution doesnt discriminate.Here the OP is talking about the law which allows discrimination.

And christians are hardly under siege,you can open a thread on that and i will be happy to reply about that.

Now coming to this issue,how many posters here on this thread have said that minorities in Pakistanis need to get equal rights?

Again as i have said on the very first page of this thread,Pakistani minorities are responsibility of Pakistan state and any migration to India cannot happen.

There was a church attacked in Haryana or Punjab recently.

Your response from memory was that why was it built in that locality, essentially putting blame on the victim.

{MOD Deleted}
 
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This is a sample of what apartheid looks like in Pakistan:


View attachment 56055


So focus on the segments of society which pushed for that change and the radicalists who abide by it not all Pakistani muslims who are realistically either oblivious to it or don't actively support it. Your consistent trend of lumping all pakistani muslims as the culprits is pure trolling which is built on fanning the flames nothing else
 
According to India's various Christian priests they're. A cursory Google search would vindicate me. Using this thread as evidence to paint Pakistani diaspora is disingenuous at best and preposterous at worst. That's pretty basic, I thought. Other than Ahmedis I can't think of any institutional discrimination in Pakistan. And I felt [MENTION=90074]PennOne[/MENTION] as an Ahmedi reflected very eloquently on that above.

As for the OP, I have made my views known above. I'd take his opinions with a grain of salt.
The priest you were talking about was proved wrong when it was found out that the perpetrators of the attack on the nun were illegal Bangladeshi immigrants.Some of them have since crosssed back and are being chased by Bangladeshi police.

A cursory google search to say Christians in India are under siege?While at it sir please do search what was the minority population in India in 1947 and what it is now.Also do search the demographics of the christians as well.

I am not painting anyone.I am only talking about people on this forum.Many of whom live in western countries.
 
Again as i have said on the very first page of this thread,Pakistani minorities are responsibility of Pakistan state and any migration to India cannot happen.

Jab apne (Pakistani) hi bewafa ho
Toh auron (Indian) se kya gila shikwa

Hope someday Indians can see our suffering and open their hearts. :(
 
There was a church attacked in Haryana or Punjab recently.

Your response from memory was that why was it built in that locality, essentially putting blame on the victim.

{MOD Deleted}
A chruch being constructed in a 100% Hindu village near a temple without permission.Thats illegal.Those who vandalised the under construction building were arrested.
 
The priest you were talking about was proved wrong when it was found out that the perpetrators of the attack on the nun were illegal Bangladeshi immigrants.Some of them have since crosssed back and are being chased by Bangladeshi police.

A cursory google search to say Christians in India are under siege?While at it sir please do search what was the minority population in India in 1947 and what it is now.Also do search the demographics of the christians as well.

I am not painting anyone.I am only talking about people on this forum.Many of whom live in western countries.

A slightly better gauge would be to do an informal poll. I predict an overwhelming majority supporting blanket minority rights and phasing out of institutional constraints against Ahmedis. Again, let me reiterate, the only institution discrimination that exists in Pakistan is against Ahmedi Muslims.

My point was not to single out India, but rather prove my point that these prevailing issues exist in most developing countries. Generally, as countries become more literate, experience economic growth and development, the incidence of discrimination goes down.
 
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A slightly better gauge would be to do an informal poll. I predict an overwhelming majority supporting blanket minority rights and phasing out of institutional constraints against Ahmedis. Again, let me reiterate, only institution discrimination that exists in Pakistan is against Ahmedi Muslims.
What about Hindus and Christians?I am asking this as there are 100s of Pakistani hindus in India asking for asylum.
 
Jab apne (Pakistani) hi bewafa ho
Toh auron (Indian) se kya gila shikwa

Hope someday Indians can see our suffering and open their hearts. :(
Why are you dragging us into this?Your forefathers like mine had the oppurtunity to migrate they didnt.

What do you want from us?Take in millions from Pakistan while we are working to uplift 100s of millions of our own?
 
What about Hindus and Christians?I am asking this as there are 100s of Pakistani hindus in India asking for asylum.

Yes, discrimination exists. Where did I say that discrimination is non existent in Pakistan. Need to distinguish between institutional discrimination versus at the society level. Most of it exists at the societal level, and generally institutions in developing countries are too weak to weed it out. But generally as a society develops, you'd expect this to dissipate.
 
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We knew that already. It's not what I asked you.

Once again, tell us what overt discrimination you faced at work, travel, locality and school.

Its like a Saudi husband telling his wife that; I give you all the luxuries in life, why do you want to be able to drive a car or apply for a passport on your own. No matter what the Saudi wife tells her husband (read Master), it will never be a good enough explanation.

Similarly, If Non-Muslim citizens of Pakistan being 'second-class citizens' through the constitution and the sword of blasphemy hanging over each of our heads is not good enough for you, nothing else that I say will be.
:133:
 
The :facepalm: moment: The OP takes issue with the provisions in the 1973 Pakistan Constitution, yet praised the person who conceived the 1973 Constitution in another thread. Shows how serious of a scholar he/she is.
 
Why are you dragging us into this?Your forefathers like mine had the oppurtunity to migrate they didnt.

What do you want from us?Take in millions from Pakistan while we are working to uplift 100s of millions of our own?

  • There are ~4 million Pakistani Non-Muslims.
  • There are ~20 million illegal Bangladeshis in India today.
  • Not all Pakistani Non-Muslims will want to or be able to move to India.
  • Deport the illegal Bangladeshis and instead allow Non-Muslim Pakistanis to come over.
 
Why are you dragging us into this?Your forefathers like mine had the oppurtunity to migrate they didnt.

What do you want from us?Take in millions from Pakistan while we are working to uplift 100s of millions of our own?

He is right. India is a secular country and should provide refuge to minorities. If Pakistan can take in few million Afghans then so can India. Especially considering the fact that everyone loves India and its economy is bigger than Pakistan. At the end of the day only an unbeliever can understand another unbeliever.
 
Its like a Saudi husband telling his wife that; I give you all the luxuries in life, why do you want to be able to drive a car or apply for a passport on your own. No matter what the Saudi wife tells her husband (read Master), it will never be a good enough explanation.

Similarly, If Non-Muslim citizens of Pakistan being 'second-class citizens' through the constitution and the sword of blasphemy hanging over each of our heads is not good enough for you, nothing else that I say will be.
:133:

From your continued non response, it's safe to assume that basically you have personally faced no overt discrimination at all in anyway in Pakistan.
 
  • There are ~4 million Pakistani Non-Muslims.
  • There are ~20 million illegal Bangladeshis in India today.
  • Not all Pakistani Non-Muslims will want to or be able to move to India.
  • Deport the illegal Bangladeshis and instead allow Non-Muslim Pakistanis to come over.
Good post, taking 2 million or so is not a huge thing these days. I think India can do this if they care about Pakistani hindus.
 
OP - Apartheid is too strong a term here. There are 30 countries where head of state has to be from a specific religion.
 
OP - Apartheid is too strong a term here. There are 30 countries where head of state has to be from a specific religion.

From the chart you posted, almost all countries that subjugate their Minority citizens to apartheid are Muslim, except for Andorra (which I had to look up on a map), Lebanon, Thailand, and Bhutan.

They should all be condemned for their Apartheid principles!
 
maybe I am an ex-Muslim, with a Muslim name.

You told us earlier in this thread that your grand parents /parents were Christian and decided not to leave during partition because Karachi was as good as India.

Now you are suggesting that you are an ex- Muslim with a Muslim name and that's why you faced no discrimination.

You are beginning to make no sense now, please rationalise the above two nuggets of info you provided about yourself.
 
You told us earlier in this thread that your grand parents /parents were Christian and decided not to leave during partition because Karachi was as good as India.

Now you are suggesting that you are an ex- Muslim with a Muslim name and that's why you faced no discrimination.

You are beginning to make no sense now, please rationalise the above two nuggets of info you provided about yourself.

I have not mentioned my faith/no-faith. I have always maintained that my personal faith is not a factor since I speak generally on the plight of all Non-Muslim Pakistanis.
 
Do you represent minorities for free or do you get something in return? IMO, you should be paid to represent certain communities.

Next, you will ask for protection tax from Minorities if they want to stay alive. :altaf
 
how long are mods going to keep this thread open or at least with some moderation of the gross generalisation by the op who is a clear troll.
 
how long are mods going to keep this thread open or at least with some moderation of the gross generalisation by the op who is a clear troll.

Just because I speak against the apartheid principles I am a troll.

The radicals (Taliban) kill us Minorities, the moderates (like Eagle Eye) just want to shut us up.
 
Again, let me reiterate, the only institution discrimination that exists in Pakistan is against Ahmedi Muslims.

One another example - Hindu, Sikh and Baha’i community can't register their marriage in Pakistan. Due to this, they do face many issue. See below.

----------------------

report has highlighted the difficulties faced by the Hindu, Sikh and Baha’i community because of absence of laws for registration of their marriages.

There is no doubt that the inability to get the marriage registered constitutes a denial of fundamental rights to minorities and is a facet of institutionalized discrimination.


Because of want of proof of marriage, the widows could not claim their right to property of their deceased husband. Hindu women have often been victims of abduction, forcible conversion and marriage and even married women have not been spared. But their relatives could not get relief in courts of law, as there had not been a documentary proof of previous marriage.

And, in certain cases if a husband refuses to acknowledge the parentage of a child, the mother is left with no option to prove her marriage. To file a suit for separation, divorce or maintenance stipend becomes almost impossibility, without proof of marriage.

The lack of proof of marital status also becomes a legal hindrance in obtaining computerized national identity cards and later getting their names changed by women. This restricts their right to movement as they face difficulties in getting passports issued. The Hindu couples living together in hotels, have often been subjected to harassment by law enforcement personnel, on failure to produce a marriage certificate in evidence of their stated relationship.

http://nation.com.pk/columns/10-Mar-2015/marriage-and-discrimination

--------------------------------------------

* I don't know if this issue is true. I was reading the 15th anniversary report of United States commission on International religious freedom after reading this thread. I found a reference of Hindus not allowed to register their marriage.

Link, if anyone is interest -

http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/USCIRF 2014 Annual Report PDF.pdf

I Googled for more detail and found this above article in Pakistani media. It looks like there was some effort to deal with this by changing the law but it has not happened. I am puzzled by this to be honest because Marriage certificate is such a basic thing and you need that certificate for so many things in US. I am sure that it's a mandatory document for many activities even outside US.


I think this is a far bigger issue than OP's point about head of state. Minorities not able to register their marriage will impacts them in their day to day life.


Q for Pakistani PPers - Is this marriage certificate is some kind religious certificate? In US , we could get approved preachers to conduct the marriage, they sign the doc and then you can get your marriage certificate copy from county. Or you could simply go to court, get married there and get your certificate.

How does marriage certificate works in Pakistan to start with? If you can go to a court and get married there to get certificate then what stops Pakistanis minorities to do it?
 
From the chart you posted, almost all countries that subjugate their Minority citizens to apartheid are Muslim, except for Andorra (which I had to look up on a map), Lebanon, Thailand, and Bhutan.

They should all be condemned for their Apartheid principles!

Apartheid is a strong word. It was applicable for situation we had in South Africa.
 
Pakistan: the apartheid hub

Following Nelson Mandela’s death last month, many a Pakistani politician — past and present — has been dubbed ‘our Mandela’. While all juxtapositions were respectively incongruous on their own unique scale of absurdity, what takes the cake is the inability to perceive the irony that anyone in Pakistan can have anything to do with anti-apartheid revolution. Pakistan: it has mustered the worst kinds of discrimination from all over the globe and assembled them on its own chopping board. Pakistan: it is associated with genocides that cover as wide a gamut as possible. Pakistan: it is the undisputed hub of apartheid.

Apartheid is an Afrikaan word that means ‘apart-hood’, which is used to depict the system of racial segregation in South Africa. And while discrimination is ubiquitous all over the world, with Pakistan you get the worst of the worst in a single showcase.

Historically, Pakistan owes its existence to a sense of ‘apart-hood’. The Muslims of the Indian subcontinent refused to live under ‘Hindu Raj’ and propagated the Two Nation Theory despite the fact that the Hindus and Muslims had significantly more in common than their differences. Having ruled over the Hindus for centuries, it was inconceivable for the Muslims to exist under them. And, of course, it does not get more ‘segregated’ than existing as two separate countries.

Then we had the Bengali genocide in the lead up to 1971. The remnants of that apartheid still exist in Pakistan, with the National Assembly adopting a resolution against the hanging of Abdul Qadir Molla — a man charged with massacring 344 civilians and committing multiple rapes, including those of minors. Eleven days after Mandela’s death, the leading contender to be ‘Pakistan’s Mandela’, Imran Khan, was bellowing for the innocence of Qadir Molla — the most brutal exponent of our savage version of apartheid in Bangladesh. Irony is too small a word. In 1947, we orchestrated nationalistic apartheid. Until 1971 it was ethnic apartheid. Even so, what we seem to specialise in is social and religious apartheid.

The division of economic classes in Pakistan is well documented. However, what is not as highlighted as it should be is racial apartheid and caste-based oppression. We have the ‘kammis’, and ‘mussalis’, with the masihis, bheels, kohlis and others facing both religious and caste-based subjugation. They are more often than not deemed unworthy to share food, drink or even utensils with. They are touted as the ‘untouchables’ but not untouchable enough to not be raped regularly. Women from these castes face racial, religious and gender apartheid. As you can see, as far as apartheid is concerned, Pakistan has a blend of everything — quite often for the same individual.

Pakistan’s gender apartheid can be seen through the lens of the World Economic Forum’s Gender Gap Index 2013, where we sit pretty at the 135th spot — second from bottom. With the level of physical and sexual violence, forced marriages, karo kari (honour killings) and structural discrimination faced by Pakistani women redefining their respective nadirs on an annual basis, one actually wonders what Yemen does to its women to take the honourable bottom slot away from us. With the jirga (tribal courts) system, which sanctions honour killings and female persecution, discounted as a ‘cultural’ and ‘tribal’ matter, gender apartheid in Pakistan should continue to flourish.

We have not even factored in the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual) community in gender apartheid yet, primarily because their existence is portrayed as the offshoot of a global conspiracy. As depicted by a loathsome private news show recently, the LGBT community in Pakistan does not even have basic human rights.

As far as religious apartheid is concerned, no one is under the guillotine as frequently as the minorities in Pakistan. In fact, here the non-Muslims are ‘fortunate’ enough to solely suffer from discrimination, bigotry and the occasional church bombing; it is the ‘heretic’ Islamic sects that suffer from the most barefaced butchery. Over 20,000 Shias have been targeted and killed since Pakistan’s inception with the likes of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ) and Ahl-e-Sunnat Wal Jamaat (ASWJ) — formerly the Sipah-e-Sahaba — endeavouring day and night to ‘purge’ the land of the pure from ‘heresy’ through Shia genocide.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/05-Jan-2014/pakistan-the-apartheid-hub
 
  • There are ~4 million Pakistani Non-Muslims.
  • There are ~20 million illegal Bangladeshis in India today.
  • Not all Pakistani Non-Muslims will want to or be able to move to India.
  • Deport the illegal Bangladeshis and instead allow Non-Muslim Pakistanis to come over.

I am all for allowing all the non-Muslims to move in. But don't know how it will be better in India, considering how we can't take care of the poor already in here.
 
Following Nelson Mandela’s death last month, many a Pakistani politician — past and present — has been dubbed ‘our Mandela’. While all juxtapositions were respectively incongruous on their own unique scale of absurdity, what takes the cake is the inability to perceive the irony that anyone in Pakistan can have anything to do with anti-apartheid revolution. Pakistan: it has mustered the worst kinds of discrimination from all over the globe and assembled them on its own chopping board. Pakistan: it is associated with genocides that cover as wide a gamut as possible. Pakistan: it is the undisputed hub of apartheid.

Apartheid is an Afrikaan word that means ‘apart-hood’, which is used to depict the system of racial segregation in South Africa. And while discrimination is ubiquitous all over the world, with Pakistan you get the worst of the worst in a single showcase.

Historically, Pakistan owes its existence to a sense of ‘apart-hood’. The Muslims of the Indian subcontinent refused to live under ‘Hindu Raj’ and propagated the Two Nation Theory despite the fact that the Hindus and Muslims had significantly more in common than their differences. Having ruled over the Hindus for centuries, it was inconceivable for the Muslims to exist under them. And, of course, it does not get more ‘segregated’ than existing as two separate countries.

Then we had the Bengali genocide in the lead up to 1971. The remnants of that apartheid still exist in Pakistan, with the National Assembly adopting a resolution against the hanging of Abdul Qadir Molla — a man charged with massacring 344 civilians and committing multiple rapes, including those of minors. Eleven days after Mandela’s death, the leading contender to be ‘Pakistan’s Mandela’, Imran Khan, was bellowing for the innocence of Qadir Molla — the most brutal exponent of our savage version of apartheid in Bangladesh. Irony is too small a word. In 1947, we orchestrated nationalistic apartheid. Until 1971 it was ethnic apartheid. Even so, what we seem to specialise in is social and religious apartheid.

The division of economic classes in Pakistan is well documented. However, what is not as highlighted as it should be is racial apartheid and caste-based oppression. We have the ‘kammis’, and ‘mussalis’, with the masihis, bheels, kohlis and others facing both religious and caste-based subjugation. They are more often than not deemed unworthy to share food, drink or even utensils with. They are touted as the ‘untouchables’ but not untouchable enough to not be raped regularly. Women from these castes face racial, religious and gender apartheid. As you can see, as far as apartheid is concerned, Pakistan has a blend of everything — quite often for the same individual.

Pakistan’s gender apartheid can be seen through the lens of the World Economic Forum’s Gender Gap Index 2013, where we sit pretty at the 135th spot — second from bottom. With the level of physical and sexual violence, forced marriages, karo kari (honour killings) and structural discrimination faced by Pakistani women redefining their respective nadirs on an annual basis, one actually wonders what Yemen does to its women to take the honourable bottom slot away from us. With the jirga (tribal courts) system, which sanctions honour killings and female persecution, discounted as a ‘cultural’ and ‘tribal’ matter, gender apartheid in Pakistan should continue to flourish.

We have not even factored in the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual or transsexual) community in gender apartheid yet, primarily because their existence is portrayed as the offshoot of a global conspiracy. As depicted by a loathsome private news show recently, the LGBT community in Pakistan does not even have basic human rights.

As far as religious apartheid is concerned, no one is under the guillotine as frequently as the minorities in Pakistan. In fact, here the non-Muslims are ‘fortunate’ enough to solely suffer from discrimination, bigotry and the occasional church bombing; it is the ‘heretic’ Islamic sects that suffer from the most barefaced butchery. Over 20,000 Shias have been targeted and killed since Pakistan’s inception with the likes of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ) and Ahl-e-Sunnat Wal Jamaat (ASWJ) — formerly the Sipah-e-Sahaba — endeavouring day and night to ‘purge’ the land of the pure from ‘heresy’ through Shia genocide.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/opinion/05-Jan-2014/pakistan-the-apartheid-hub

It's just a catchy headlines otherwise gender based discrimination is not unique to Pakistan. It's issue in many poor/developing countries. I think it's due to lack of education and traditionally society being male dominated pretty much everywhere. With education it can get better with time. Even in US, females were not allowed to vote earlier.
 
Sounds good on paper but logistically it would be a nightmare to implement. Would there be houses available? Would they arrange a swap with people going the other way?

It will not be easy to implement, but considering the 'relief' such migrants will get from leaving the suffocating environment, it may well be given a shot. Much like the people who went through temporary pain during the Partition but (I assume?) achieved greater life satisfaction by living in a country that provides the kind of society they want to live in.

As for the resources, I'm sure the religious right and NGOs will be able to come up with funds and infrastructure to welcome their brothers home.
 
India ranks 5th in the world in beef production, 7th in domestic consumption. India produced 3.643 million metric tons of beef in 2012.

Yes, there are laws in some states banning the slaughter of cows but it is not that strictly implemented. Also, in such states, beef (cow) exported from other states is legal. And Buffalo/Bullock slaughter is legal.

So, I don't think anyone would migrate simply because they will have to eat chicken, mutton, buffalo and bull beef instead of cow ( it is also available but illegally). There are far greater issues in life than one variety of meat being readily available.

Oh bhai that was a moot point. The bigger point is someone may want to live in an Islamic society while their grandparents didn't.

If the creation of Pakistan occurred to allow such a society to flourish, I don't see why the future generations should be stopped from moving there in search of their idea of utopia?
 
Personally I don't care if I live in a Muslim, Hindu, Christian,....majority country, as I respect laws of the country I live in. What I want is to be treated as an equal citizen.

When a cricket player of the team wears the colors of the national flag, he is playing for his country and not his religion. Unfortunately in Pakistan, religion comes before everything, that is the reason why Shoaib Malik in his presentation speech dedicated the victory to all Muslims.

When I stand under the national flag of the country that gives me equal rights, then religion, caste, race goes out the window, because I am a citizen of that country first!
 
I am all for allowing all the non-Muslims to move in. But don't know how it will be better in India, considering how we can't take care of the poor already in here.

That will upto each individual to make the decision, but thanks for the big hearted welcome. :danish
 
Personally I don't care if I live in a Muslim, Hindu, Christian,....majority country, as I respect laws of the country I live in. What I want is to be treated as an equal citizen.

When a cricket player of the team wears the colors of the national flag, he is playing for his country and not his religion. Unfortunately in Pakistan, religion comes before everything, that is the reason why Shoaib Malik in his presentation speech dedicated the victory to all Muslims.

When I stand under the national flag of the country that gives me equal rights, then religion, caste, race goes out the window, because I am a citizen of that country first!

Okay I am starting to understand your point now. You dont really care about individual freedoms, as long as state laws see each citizen equally.

Meaning, as long as one can theoretically become prime minister of a country, it doesnt matter about ground realities. It doesnt matter if that person goes on to actually become p.m.

To each his own I guess. I would rather not be eligable to be prime minister as long as I can live peacefully under no threat, and can live a comfortable life.

Guess what? If you are poor in a third world country, doesnt really matter if you are a majority or a minority, you will be treated badly. Its just the nature of being in a third world country. As sad as that is, its like that in every poor country I can think of.

If all of these minorities in Pakistan migrate to India, the only way they will have a good life is if they have money. Otherwise they will live in the slums like every other poor Indian. I dont know why you are deluding yourself, that just because they would have the theoretical capacity of becoming a P.M. in India that they would magically have better lives. Why are there so many slums in India than that are filled with muslims and other minorities?

Check this video out: Watch from 1:29


He is a hindu living in Pakistan, and he sounds extremely patriotic and happy. Why? because he is rich.

If he becomes poor and migrates to India I doubt he would be happy just because he can theoretically become a prime minister.


But you know what, I do agree with you that non-muslims should be given equal rights. I really hope we do see a christian/hindu/sikh prime minister one day.

I just fail to see how this will help poverty stricken minorities though, which in my opinion is the real problem at hand.
 
Okay I am starting to understand your point now. You dont really care about individual freedoms, as long as state laws see each citizen equally.

Meaning, as long as one can theoretically become prime minister of a country, it doesnt matter about ground realities. It doesnt matter if that person goes on to actually become p.m.

To each his own I guess. I would rather not be eligable to be prime minister as long as I can live peacefully under no threat, and can live a comfortable life.

Guess what? If you are poor in a third world country, doesnt really matter if you are a majority or a minority, you will be treated badly. Its just the nature of being in a third world country. As sad as that is, its like that in every poor country I can think of.

If all of these minorities in Pakistan migrate to India, the only way they will have a good life is if they have money. Otherwise they will live in the slums like every other poor Indian. I dont know why you are deluding yourself, that just because they would have the theoretical capacity of becoming a P.M. in India that they would magically have better lives. Why are there so many slums in India than that are filled with muslims and other minorities?

Check this video out: Watch from 1:29


He is a hindu living in Pakistan, and he sounds extremely patriotic and happy. Why? because he is rich.

If he becomes poor and migrates to India I doubt he would be happy just because he can theoretically become a prime minister.


But you know what, I do agree with you that non-muslims should be given equal rights. I really hope we do see a christian/hindu/sikh prime minister one day.

I just fail to see how this will help poverty stricken minorities though, which in my opinion is the real problem at hand.

Your concept is flawed as the reason Pakistan was formed because Muslims didn't want to be second class citizens in India.There were many rich Muslims in India and probably doing better than many Hindus during that time but still wanted a separate country because they wanted to be the President,PM,Minister.Jinnah wanted to be the first Prez and Nehru did too.I hope you are getting where i'm going with this and i don't have to write an essay on it.
Migration is wrong but equal rights are important.
 
i dont post regularly now on pp,but on this topic l want to contribute.
i think most of the posters posting in this thread belong to majorities in countries they live in, so you might not be getting what op is trying to say. i know most of the citizens of both countries are poor, their basic needs are'nt getting fullfiled. but what minorities in india and pakistan want is respect and equality. rullers cant feed the poor, cannot give them jobs or clean water to drink(same as poors from majority religions) but atleast give them respect and slight hope that they are also equals citizens. i know lifting the muslim condition for being pm or president wont change ground realities but atleastt it will give them confidence that if they love their country and work hard they can be pm or president. even though there is 0.001 % or even less chances of that.

i am a sikh and sometimes i tend to forget that i belong to minority community in india. because of equal rights i get. sometime i feel hindus living in punjab are the one who are discriminated.
only time i get the feeling of minority is when there is mention of 1984 riots. if the culprits were punished at the right time that would not have brought back the departed souls but it could have given us a sense of equality and peace of mind of the families who suffered, it wont feed the poor or give better living conditions.but still it means a lot to us.
other than that i never have felt any sort of diacrimination in my life,never. things might be differnt for muslims in other parts of india.
 
btw, rather than coming to india, which will creat lot of diplomatic issues like visa, minorities in pakistan can choose a place inside pakistan, and shift their. you dont need visa, and there wont be any time limit, take your time 10-12 years . if they can get an area where even 35-40% are non muslim, then they can demand for separate province within pakistan. yhat is what has worked for sikhs in india. now no political party can ignore us. we have a sikh cm(even though he is as bad any other cm in india). this is much better idea than the one mention in op, imo.
 
So Mr Cheez, how goes your campaign? Did you contact the Indian authorities yet to see how they could assist in this matter? It might be an idea to start collecting names and addresses in order to arrange visas for the thousands of minorities that you have in mind for this mass migration. Please keep us updated here on any correspondence you have exchanged with relevant Indian and Pakistani authorities.
 
btw, rather than coming to india, which will creat lot of diplomatic issues like visa, minorities in pakistan can choose a place inside pakistan, and shift their. you dont need visa, and there wont be any time limit, take your time 10-12 years . if they can get an area where even 35-40% are non muslim, then they can demand for separate province within pakistan. yhat is what has worked for sikhs in india. now no political party can ignore us. we have a sikh cm(even though he is as bad any other cm in india). this is much better idea than the one mention in op, imo.

Moving to an area and forming a enclave within Pakistan is only a temporary solution.

There are elements within Pakistan that want to bring about Sharia Law, and Pakistan Taliban is only one of them.

Pakistan Army is strong and is able to fight these elements for now, but when their own bases get attacked there are reports that even Pakistan Army has been infiltrated by some of these elements. Every Muslim country has some level of Sharia Law, Pakistan today may only have 20% of it, and could very well go to the maximum that we see today with ISIS and have 90% Sharia, and all Non-Muslim Pakistanis would end up as sex-slaves and cattle.

Why cant Pakistan and India set up booths on the border and take applications and review each application on a case by case bases, unfortunately today both have closed their doors.
 
Your concept is flawed as the reason Pakistan was formed because Muslims didn't want to be second class citizens in India.There were many rich Muslims in India and probably doing better than many Hindus during that time but still wanted a separate country because they wanted to be the President,PM,Minister.Jinnah wanted to be the first Prez and Nehru did too.I hope you are getting where i'm going with this and i don't have to write an essay on it.
Migration is wrong but equal rights are important.

I dont care about the reason why Pakistan was created, that is irrelevant to this thread.

The OP thinks if hindus and christians move to India they will magically have better lives. The point of my post was that in both countries poor people are treated like dirt, whether majority or minority.
 
Your concept is flawed as the reason Pakistan was formed because Muslims didn't want to be second class citizens in India.There were many rich Muslims in India and probably doing better than many Hindus during that time but still wanted a separate country because they wanted to be the President,PM,Minister.Jinnah wanted to be the first Prez and Nehru did too.I hope you are getting where i'm going with this and i don't have to write an essay on it.
Migration is wrong but equal rights are important.

Btw I am not even arguing that minorities shouldnt get equal rights, because I believe they should.

I am just arguing about the idea that minorities would have better lives migrating to India.
 
Moving to an area and forming a enclave within Pakistan is only a temporary solution.

There are elements within Pakistan that want to bring about Sharia Law, and Pakistan Taliban is only one of them.

Pakistan Army is strong and is able to fight these elements for now, but when their own bases get attacked there are reports that even Pakistan Army has been infiltrated by some of these elements. Every Muslim country has some level of Sharia Law, Pakistan today may only have 20% of it, and could very well go to the maximum that we see today with ISIS and have 90% Sharia, and all Non-Muslim Pakistanis would end up as sex-slaves and cattle.

Why cant Pakistan and India set up booths on the border and take applications and review each application on a case by case bases, unfortunately today both have closed their doors.

How do you know they can't? Have you tried contacting the relevant authorities in either country to see how they could accomodate your heartfelt plea? Sadly they won't necessarily read your trol...err..thread on PakPassion, but if you contact them directly, or even submit an article to a well read newspaper it might come to their attention.
 
How do you know they can't? Have you tried contacting the relevant authorities in either country to see how they could accomodate your heartfelt plea? Sadly they won't necessarily read your trol...err..thread on PakPassion, but if you contact them directly, or even submit an article to a well read newspaper it might come to their attention.

Contacting Authorities is an option but unfortunately in Pakistan/India it's like a black hole, you never hear back.

Do you post in every thread that instead of creating a thread to contact the Authorities like PCB for cricket, or is it only this one since you want to shut all discussion about the plight of Minorities in Pakistan?
 
Btw I am not even arguing that minorities shouldnt get equal rights, because I believe they should.

I am just arguing about the idea that minorities would have better lives migrating to India.

Thank you for supporting equal rights.

I am not saying that every Pakistani of the Minority community will just pack up and leave, that is not going to happen, but for some who are constantly under threat would be the first ones to make the move.
 
We have more than 1.2 billion over here as it is. India is not in a position to take four million minorities from Pakistan when we are struggling ourselves. Not when we are trying to kick out 20 million illegal Bangladeshi immigrants out of our country for good.
 
We have more than 1.2 billion over here as it is. India is not in a position to take four million minorities from Pakistan when we are struggling ourselves. Not when we are trying to kick out 20 million illegal Bangladeshi immigrants out of our country for good.

It is selfish to think this way, because the numbers that would potentially migrate to India are insignificant.
 
Discrimination happens everywhere and in every country (in different forms and in different levels). Some are very minor some more.


But to me, its worse when a country's law/constitution discriminates one section with other section of it's own citizen.
 
Giving examples of any discrimination happened in Pakistan/India/USA/EU doesn't prove anything. We need to check if these countries law actually are different for minorities vs majority or not.

If not then the country do not discriminate. People can always behave illegal and unlawful. But if the discrimination is legal then the minority has no where to go.
 
Giving examples of any discrimination happened in Pakistan/India/USA/EU doesn't prove anything. We need to check if these countries law actually are different for minorities vs majority or not.

If not then the country do not discriminate. People can always behave illegal and unlawful. But if the discrimination is legal then the minority has no where to go.

This.
It is such a simple concept yet some people struggle to understand.
 
Contacting Authorities is an option but unfortunately in Pakistan/India it's like a black hole, you never hear back.

Do you post in every thread that instead of creating a thread to contact the Authorities like PCB for cricket, or is it only this one since you want to shut all discussion about the plight of Minorities in Pakistan?

Well I just assumed that you genuinely wanted a mass migration to actually happen so was thinking of how we could get the ball rolling. I didn't realise you just wanted a thread on PP to trol...err...make empty discussion.
 
why is it when ever i open "time pass" on pakpassion i always find at least one so called" pakistani " always moaning about pakistan and posting non stop anti pakistan stuff 24/7 ..i ve been on pakpassion since 2010 and every few months some guy like ya cheez comes moans and cry about everything pakistani for a few weeks to a few months and then disappear ..and some new guys comes and takes his place ..i personally think these guys r indian trolls who come pretending to be secular liberal pakistani but they get bored and leave ..this cycle has been non stop since 2010 ...asking pakistani minority's to move to india lol hahhaha ...ajeeb kisim ka log hain yar

i once went to ICF the indian cricket fan page and posted a artical on the opression of christans and dalits in state of oressa india ..guess what i got banned in less then 1 hr lol ..these trolls should at least thank pakpassion for giving them time and letting them post the fllth 24/7 ..hats off to pakpassion :hatsoff:
 
why is it when ever i open "time pass" on pakpassion i always find at least one so called" pakistani " always moaning about pakistan and posting non stop anti pakistan stuff 24/7 ..i ve been on pakpassion since 2010 and every few months some guy like ya cheez comes moans and cry about everything pakistani for a few weeks to a few months and then disappear ..and some new guys comes and takes his place ..i personally think these guys r indian trolls who come pretending to be secular liberal pakistani but they get bored and leave ..this cycle has been non stop since 2010 ...asking pakistani minority's to move to india lol hahhaha ...ajeeb kisim ka log hain yar

i once went to ICF the indian cricket fan page and posted a artical on the opression of christans and dalits in state of oressa india ..guess what i got banned in less then 1 hr lol ..these trolls should at least thank pakpassion for giving them time and letting them post the fllth 24/7 ..hats off to pakpassion :hatsoff:

I don't know what you are complaining about, because I am a Pakistani. If you feel that asking for equal rights for Pakistani Non Muslims is anti-Pakistani, then you are wrong.

I don't post on the Indian forum you are talking about, but you can certainly discuss the treatment of Minorities in India on this forum.
 
I don't know what you are complaining about, because I am a Pakistani. If you feel that asking for equal rights for Pakistani Non Muslims is anti-Pakistani, then you are wrong.

I don't post on the Indian forum you are talking about, but you can certainly discuss the treatment of Minorities in India on this forum.

There is a difference between saying 'Non-Muslims should have the same rights and Muslims' and 'Non-Muslims should have the same rights as Muslims and Pakistani Muslims always support less rights to non-Muslims'
 
There is a difference between saying 'Non-Muslims should have the same rights and Muslims' and 'Non-Muslims should have the same rights as Muslims and Pakistani Muslims always support less rights to non-Muslims'

There is a post in this thread where I mentioned that Pakistan used to be a great country before the Talibanization, but I'm sure it must have missed your attention.
 
There is a post in this thread where I mentioned that Pakistan used to be a great country before the Talibanization, but I'm sure it must have missed your attention.

so are you saying muslims in general in Pakistan are Taliban supporters as a broad stroke?
 
Wow, the thread is still on ? :)

I think as normal citizens or forum members we can hardly do anything here to actually change the law. The best we can do is give our view.

One simple Yes/No may answer/Satisfy OP's query.


If Pakistan parliament wants to make a change to the constitution which will allow anyone from any religion or section of any religion to hold any post in the country. As a Pakistani will you support that move ? Yes or NO ?
 
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