Pakistan to India mass migration - Part II

[yeh cheez]

In Pakistan everybody is a second class citizen irrespective of what your religion is.

The only people who are first class citizens are the ones in power or those who have money/connections.

Not true.

Though I would say Ahmedis have it worse than other Minorities.

 

[Slog]

I once met a Pakistani Non Muslim who mentioned that he wanted to be a Commando in the Army but was turned down because he wasn't a Muslim. I don't know how true this is.

If a Non Muslim Pakistani wants to serve his country and put his life at risk, it's really sad to see them treated this way.

I could name a few high post non muslims in the army

and ive met musllims who feel they were turned down because they weren't Punjabi

most likely they weren't good enough

 

[Syed1]

I could name a few high post non muslims in the army

and ive met musllims who feel they were turned down because they weren't Punjabi

most likely they weren't good enough

Google Noel Israel Khokhar

 

[yeh cheez]

I could name a few high post non muslims in the army

and ive met musllims who feel they were turned down because they weren't Punjabi

most likely they weren't good enough

Yeah I personally know some in the Army. Did you ever do NCC training in Karachi, or you escaped that as well?

 

[Slog]

ive said it before and ill repeat

my biggest issue with this thread is that the OP is making a mockery of what Is a legitimate gripe and sth I feel strongly about and know about well. By making topics like this you are not aiming to have ideas or debates. Its just provocative statements which help no one.

But by taking a non serious attitude and making troll posts OP is making a mockery of the topic and is doing a disservice to all minorities and muslims in Pakistan who legitimately want to have a proper, open minded discussion on this topic

 

[Slog]

Yeah I personally know some in the Army. Did you ever do NCC training in Karachi, or you escaped that as well?

its not there anymore or is not compulsory atleast. I graduated from HS in 2009

 

[Slog]

anyways im done with this thread


its going nowhere and the op's logics are torn to shreds.

ill prolly open a thread on minorities sometime in the hope of a mature discussion

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

PP needs to have screening process for its membership, so that we don't get obvious trolls like the OP.

He's been here before under several pseudos, you have to admire his tenacity. Trolls are the lifeblood of internet forums, they are the reason this place has always remained highly entertaining.

 

[yeh cheez]

anyways im done with this thread


its going nowhere and the op's logics are torn to shreds.

ill prolly open a thread on minorities sometime in the hope of a mature discussion

I appreciate your participation.

I do believe it's Muslims like you who do want to treat us as equals are our hope for any kind of reform.

I look forward to a thread by you on this topic, which you feel will generate better discussion.

 

[Slog]

He's been here before under several pseudos, you have to admire his tenacity. Trolls are the lifeblood of internet forums, they are the reason this place has always remained highly entertaining.

I don't think he's indian if that's what you are alluding to

atleas theres no overwhelming reason to believe so.

topic is genuine. approach is not.

 

[Slog]

I appreciate your participation.

I do believe it's Muslims like you who do want to treat us as equals are our hope for any kind of reform.

I look forward to a thread by you on this topic, which you feel will generate better discussion.

yes over the weekend maybe.

id want to spend some time on the op

 

[yeh cheez]

I don't think he's indian if that's what you are alluding to

atleas theres no overwhelming reason to believe so.

topic is genuine. approach is not.

Not only am I not Indian, I've probably lived more years in Pakistan than most posters on this forum.

 

[yeh cheez]

yes over the weekend maybe.

id want to spend some time on the op

[emoji106]

 

[Slog]

Not only am I not Indian, I've probably lived more years in Pakistan than most posters on this forum.

on al ighter note. where are you from in Karachi?

 

[90MPH]

Actually I can't contribute to this topic as I am not a Pakistani and any opinion I will have would be based from some reports, etc. So I don't think it will be fair to take a stance on this topic and you guys will know better. By best friend is X is a common bugbear for me, but maybe you are right, I should have refrained from posting in this thread.

If you can't or shouldn't contribute to the topic then stay out if you don't know what you are talking or about or making cheap comments because you cant stomach the fact we have friends that belong to minority religions and accept them just as much as they accept us and even show more patriotism than the majority.

 

[yeh cheez]

on al ighter note. where are you from in Karachi?

Clifton/Saddar area. What about you?

 

[Slog]

Clifton/Saddar area. What about you?

Clifton.

 

[blackanhyellow]

OP had some credibility in some of his threads earlier. He said many things I agreed with, and some that I didnt. However I respected him because I thought "Wow this non-muslim guy seems like a patriotic Pakistani who is actually trying to make Pakistan a better place with some activism even if its online". Thats resepectable. I also agree that non-muslims should get equal rights under state law.

But now, apparently he wants to migrate to India... Heard delhi is nice this time of year. Good luck, and good bye.

 

[mithun_minhas]

I would support if India opens its gates one last time for Pakistani Sikhs/Hindus/Christians.

I would open the gates for Gypsies too. They are Desis who left India. My former Boss's wife is a Romanian and she told me that everyone hates Roma gypsies and gets treated like trash.

Tamil Refugees are also welcome if they feel they are persecuted. But it looks like Lankan Govt is taking good care of them.

 

[Laal]

OP had some credibility in some of his threads earlier. He said many things I agreed with, and some that I didnt. However I respected him because I thought "Wow this non-muslim guy seems like a patriotic Pakistani who is actually trying to make Pakistan a better place with some activism even if its online". Thats resepectable. I also agree that non-muslims should get equal rights under state law.

But now, apparently he wants to migrate to India... Heard delhi is nice this time of year. Good luck, and good bye.

I'd caution using the OP to paint the entire Pakistani non-Muslims. His view is amongst a fringe minority and mostly operates on one-point agenda. Can't imagine a single person who'd take him seriously.

 

[yeh cheez]

OP had some credibility in some of his threads earlier. He said many things I agreed with, and some that I didnt. However I respected him because I thought "Wow this non-muslim guy seems like a patriotic Pakistani who is actually trying to make Pakistan a better place with some activism even if its online". Thats resepectable. I also agree that non-muslims should get equal rights under state law.

But now, apparently he wants to migrate to India... Heard delhi is nice this time of year. Good luck, and good bye.

I wasn't talking about myself but as a general comment for all Non Muslims in Pakistan who are second class citizens.

Not all Non Muslims will want to or be able to migrate the second time either, but it is something both countries should consider.

 

[RWAC]

Not sure if serious OP but I've long been in favor of allowing exchanges between Pakistan and India.

There may be security concerns which need to be sorted out, but otherwise I don't see why both nations should try to abate the idea behind the formation of the two countries.

Why should younger generations of Muslims in India have to suffer under the suffocation of not being allowed to eat beef, all for a decision their grandparents made (of not migrating to an Islamic state)? Pakistan was formed for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, so Muslims should be freely allowed to move there if they wish.

Similarly, children of non-Muslim Pakistanis whose grandparents got duped by being told they will have equal rights have to suffer for decisions made by the previous generation?

Also, for each in-migration, a country's citizens also get the adrenaline rush by thumping their chests and saying "look we were righttt - (India/Pakistan) is a hell hole for (Muslims/Hindus)."

 

[yeh cheez]

^ This!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not sure if serious OP but I've long been in favor of allowing exchanges between Pakistan and India.

There may be security concerns which need to be sorted out, but otherwise I don't see why both nations should try to abate the idea behind the formation of the two countries.

Why should younger generations of Muslims in India have to suffer under the suffocation of not being allowed to eat beef, all for a decision their grandparents made (of not migrating to an Islamic state)? Pakistan was formed for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, so Muslims should be freely allowed to move there if they wish.

Similarly, children of non-Muslim Pakistanis whose grandparents got duped by being told they will have equal rights have to suffer for decisions made by the previous generation?

Also, for each in-migration, a country's citizens also get the adrenaline rush by thumping their chests and saying "look we were righttt - (India/Pakistan) is a hell hole for (Muslims/Hindus)."

Sounds good on paper but logistically it would be a nightmare to implement. Would there be houses available? Would they arrange a swap with people going the other way?

 

[moumotta]

^ Sorry it does not sound good on paper either. Mass migrations create refugees and slums and whip up violent sentiments. We have seen it all once. Having said that Islam supports the idea of hijrat if things get too hot for people so the OP could just be suggesting what he has learnt in his text books.

 

[PennOne]

Not true.

Though I would say Ahmedis have it worse than other Minorities.

Flawed logic by you. I am an Ahmadi Muslim and yes we sometimes get worst treatment but we also know that Pakistan is our beloved nation, if we blame it, we only blame the mullah, the politician and those who are with them and we know many are not with them and even the most corrupt can be reformed out of this hate. I can guarantee the love of Pakisfan is so great that the moment those Ahmadis who feel uncomfortable living there, will come back in a heartbeat if things really change for the better. I come to Pakisfan despite feeling a bit threatened and I sometimes say Is kaum ka Kutch no honey wala. I don't mean to give up on it I say it becsuse of the love of nation not because I hate it

 

[CricketCartoons]

what if hes a Hindu ? Pathetic really .

I dont think it is pathetic. A Pakistani Hindu is most likely to think of migrating to India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

what if hes a Hindu ? Pathetic really .

Did I say there was anything wrong with being a Pakistani Hindu? The only one who seems to think there's anything wrong with being any religion is the one who brings up the minority issues and then remains ashamed to say where he's coming from.

 

[yeh cheez]

Did I say there was anything wrong with being a Pakistani Hindu? The only one who seems to think there's anything wrong with being any religion is the one who brings up the minority issues and then remains ashamed to say where he's coming from.

Stop derailing the thread. If you dont like the topic being discussed, you can choose not to post. I have already mentioned that my religion is irrelevant since the topic is about all Non-Muslims and not about a single faith/no-faith.

 

[PennOne]

Stop derailing the thread. If you dont like the topic being discussed, you can choose not to post. I have already mentioned that my religion is irrelevant since the topic is about all Non-Muslims and not about a single faith/no-faith.

I don't think Pakistanis like the tone of downing pakistani muslims as having lower intentions of helping non muslims but as an OT I can tell you don't follow a religion you are an atheist by the conversation track

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Stop derailing the thread. If you dont like the topic being discussed, you can choose not to post. I have already mentioned that my religion is irrelevant since the topic is about all Non-Muslims and not about a single faith/no-faith.

I know I can choose not to post, but on this occasion I very much choose to post when someone insinuates very wrongly that I have made a negative comment against Pakistani Hindus. My words are there for everyone to see.

 

[Garuda]

After 10 pages, the basic question stays.


I think op's main question is the constitution itself doesn't consider Muslims and non-Muslims equal. And to be honest, I have never seen Pakistani Muslims ever opposing this thing.


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[cricketjoshila]

After 10 pages, the basic question stays.


I think op's main question is the constitution itself doesn't consider Muslims and non-Muslims equal. And to be honest, I have never seen Pakistani Muslims ever opposing this thing.


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And Indians have nothing to do with it.

 

[CricketCartoons]

And Indians have nothing to do with it.

Then why are you on a Pakistani forum?

 

[RexRex]

I have already mentioned that my religion is irrelevant since the topic is about all Non-Muslims and not about a single faith/no-faith.

What would the public response be to a bill introduced by a senator that seeks to give the same representation and voting rights to non muslims ? Is it a no-go area like the blasphemy issue ?

 

[Abhilash93]

Not sure if serious OP but I've long been in favor of allowing exchanges between Pakistan and India.

There may be security concerns which need to be sorted out, but otherwise I don't see why both nations should try to abate the idea behind the formation of the two countries.

Why should younger generations of Muslims in India have to suffer under the suffocation of not being allowed to eat beef, all for a decision their grandparents made (of not migrating to an Islamic state)? Pakistan was formed for the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, so Muslims should be freely allowed to move there if they wish.

Similarly, children of non-Muslim Pakistanis whose grandparents got duped by being told they will have equal rights have to suffer for decisions made by the previous generation?

Also, for each in-migration, a country's citizens also get the adrenaline rush by thumping their chests and saying "look we were righttt - (India/Pakistan) is a hell hole for (Muslims/Hindus)."

India ranks 5th in the world in beef production, 7th in domestic consumption. India produced 3.643 million metric tons of beef in 2012.

Yes, there are laws in some states banning the slaughter of cows but it is not that strictly implemented. Also, in such states, beef (cow) exported from other states is legal. And Buffalo/Bullock slaughter is legal.

So, I don't think anyone would migrate simply because they will have to eat chicken, mutton, buffalo and bull beef instead of cow ( it is also available but illegally). There are far greater issues in life than one variety of meat being readily available.

 

[justarslan]

Muslim voting rights should be revoked - Shiv Sena

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Revoke-voting-rights-of-Muslims-Shiv-Sena/articleshow/46896066.cms

Hindustan may naya Pakistan banao!

 

[CricketCartoons]

Hindustan may naya Pakistan banao!

Oh no, is Imran Khan heading towards India?

 

[Eagle_Eye]

What would the public response be to a bill introduced by a senator that seeks to give the same representation and voting rights to non muslims ? Is it a no-go area like the blasphemy issue ?

Its part of the constitution. PM or Preseident can only be muslims. Its more aimed at ahmedis rather than christians because in the constitution it states who is a muslim. I think current president of pakistan is a shia.

In anycase, its there because nominally everything has to be according to shariah and only a muslim president or pm can ensure that.

In lebanon, only christian can be president, PM a sunni and speaker shia. Pakitan is not alone in having such things in the constitution.

 

[Abhilash93]

Its part of the constitution. PM or Preseident can only be muslims. Its more aimed at ahmedis rather than christians because in the constitution it states who is a muslim. I think current president of pakistan is a shia.

In anycase, its there because nominally everything has to be according to shariah and only a muslim president or pm can ensure that.

In lebanon, only christian can be president, PM a sunni and speaker shia. Pakitan is not alone in having such things in the constitution.

US marines imposed it in Lebanon when they landed there. Only about 20% people in Lebanon are Christians. It is a very poor exampl to give.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

US marines imposed it in Lebanon when they landed there. Only about 20% people in Lebanon are Christians. It is a very poor exampl to give.

marines did not impose anything........ the lebanese came to this formula.

shias are the largest community in lebanon, yet no shia can be be president or pm of lebanon. Are lebanese shias 2nd class citizens? If so, why did they endorse the constitution?

 

[yeh cheez]

After 10 pages, the basic question stays.


I think op's main question is the constitution itself doesn't consider Muslims and non-Muslims equal. And to be honest, I have never seen Pakistani Muslims ever opposing this thing.


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Yet people keep saying only 1% of the population supports apartheid and terror. I don't see any outright condemnation of these laws by my fellow citizens.

If Indian Muslims can get special privileges (e.g. polygamy) along with being equal citizens under the law, its shameful that Muslims across the border in Pakistan will not even give us equal rights.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Yet people keep saying only 1% of the population supports apartheid and terror. I don't see any outright condemnation of these laws by my fellow citizens.

If Indian Muslims can get special privileges (e.g. polygamy) along with being equal citizens under the law, its shameful that Muslims across the border in Pakistan will not even give us equal rights.

Its because you always come about it in an attacking way. If you only talked about the issues lets say about equal rights, I think 99% of PPers would support that. If you come up with positive solutions, we may support that as well.

However, you always come out guns blazing either attacking Islam, Pakistan, or Pakistanis. Its a natural reaction to defend ourselves by someone who is attacking us.

I guarentee you if any Indian muslim tried seeking equal rights by verbally attacking hinduism, they would also get little support from hindus. They would be told to leave India and go to Pakistan.

 

[yeh cheez]

Its because you always come about it in an attacking way. If you only talked about the issues lets say about equal rights, I think 99% of PPers would support that. If you come up with positive solutions, we may support that as well.

However, you always come out guns blazing either attacking Islam, Pakistan, or Pakistanis. Its a natural reaction to defend ourselves by someone who is attacking us.

I guarentee you if any Indian muslim tried seeking equal rights by verbally attacking hinduism, they would also get little support from hindus. They would be told to leave India and go to Pakistan.

I wish it was all my doing that keeps Muslims from giving the Minorities equal rights, I would just shut up and go away. Unfortunately that is not the case.

The reality is that there is no room for discussion when it comes to equal rights for Non-Muslims and amendment to the Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan, since this by itself is seen by Muslims as an attack on Islam.

There were several assassination attempts on Minority Minister Shahbaz Bhatti before he was killed.

[utube]_n4V9larty8[/utube]

 

[CricketCartoons]

Its because you always come about it in an attacking way. If you only talked about the issues lets say about equal rights, I think 99% of PPers would support that. If you come up with positive solutions, we may support that as well.

However, you always come out guns blazing either attacking Islam, Pakistan, or Pakistanis. Its a natural reaction to defend ourselves by someone who is attacking us.

I guarentee you if any Indian muslim tried seeking equal rights by verbally attacking hinduism, they would also get little support from hindus. They would be told to leave India and go to Pakistan.

That is natural reaction, but people who are oppressed are not truly empowered if they are not free to attack their oppressors.

 

[blackanhyellow]

That is natural reaction, but people who are oppressed are not truly empowered if they are not free to attack their oppressors.

That only happens in the most developed democratic countries like America/Canada. But even there it doesnt work perfectly (i.e. the ferguson incident). But yes, for the most part these developed democratic countries you can express your thoughts much more freely than any other country.

Can you attack your opressors in India? How about Israel?

Will it go well for me as an Indian Muslim if I go to a RSS ruled area of India and slaughter a cow for eid?

Yeh Cheez seems to think its all roses and bunnies everywhere but Pakistan, which is why he wants a mass migration.

My point is not that minorities are not suffering because I know they are. But so are Muslims. Muslims are being killed left right and center.
I see it this way, Pakistan is not only lagging behind in protecting minorities, but also in pretty much every other aspect as well. Rape laws, education, economic policies, fighting corruption, infrastructure, you name it Pakistan is decades behind in it compared to many countries.

I see it as a process. As democratic institutions get stronger, things will improve. India's process went much smoother than ours because they had democracy throughout, while we had periods of military coups.

 

[yeh cheez]

Can you attack your opressors in India? How about Israel?

Will it go well for me as an Indian Muslim if I go to a RSS ruled area of India and slaughter a cow for eid?

Yeh Cheez seems to think its all roses and bunnies everywhere but Pakistan, which is why he wants a mass migration.

Your reasoning is false.

You wanting to slaughter a cow in India (which you can in most places), would be like a Pakistani Minority saying that I should be able slaughter a pig on the streets of Pakistan, but that is not the argument here.

India gives equal rights to all its citizens, so does Israel, a Muslim citizen of Israel is not banned from holding positions of power.

In Pakistan, Non-Muslims are banned from holding positions of power and there is a sword hanging over their heads in the name of blasphemy, where even hearsay allegation (e.g. Asia Bibi) by a Muslim is enough to get you a death sentence.

I am proposing that India open its borders to victims of apartheid in Pakistan, since Muslims of Pakistan have no interest in giving us equal rights, and here you are comparing our second-class citizenship situation to Muslims not being able to slaughter a cow and eat beef in the province of Maharashtra.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Your reasoning is false.

You wanting to slaughter a cow in India (which you can in most places), would be like a Pakistani Minority saying that I should be able slaughter a pig on the streets of Pakistan, but that is not the argument here.

India gives equal rights to all its citizens, so does Israel, a Muslim citizen of Israel is not banned from holding positions of power.

In Pakistan, Non-Muslims are banned from holding positions of power and there is a sword hanging over their heads in the name of blasphemy, where even hearsay allegation (e.g. Asia Bibi) by a Muslim is enough to get you a death sentence.

I am proposing that India open its borders to victims of apartheid in Pakistan, since Muslims of Pakistan have no interest in giving us equal rights, and here you are comparing our second-class citizenship situation to Muslims not being able to slaughter a cow and eat beef in the province of Maharashtra.

Man. Idk what to even say anymore. The point of my post was that its not perfect every where other than Pakistan like you claim it to be.

Muslims are accused of "love jihad". Muslims cant buy a flat in certain parts of India. There are just so many examples other than the cow slaughtering one.
There are also hindu extremists like RSS. Which is more mainstream than you think. They are actively trying to convert christians and muslims to hinduism. I believe they even claimed to get rid of christianity by 2021 or something like that.

And btw I am not critisizing India for the sake of it, hopefully Indian PPers wont get offended. Just trying to break your notion that India is perfect and all non-muslims should migrate there.

 

[yeh cheez]

Man. Idk what to even say anymore. The point of my post was that its not perfect every where other than Pakistan like you claim it to be.

Muslims are accused of "love jihad". Muslims cant buy a flat in certain parts of India. There are just so many examples other than the cow slaughtering one.
There are also hindu extremists like RSS. Which is more mainstream than you think. They are actively trying to convert christians and muslims to hinduism. I believe they even claimed to get rid of christianity by 2021 or something like that.

And btw I am not critisizing India for the sake of it, hopefully Indian PPers wont get offended. Just trying to break your notion that India is perfect and all non-muslims should migrate there.

In India, you still hear of cases of forced conversions to Islam, there are local Muslim terror groups (Indian Mujahideen), and also Muslim neighborhoods where Pakistan flag is flown.

Despite this, Indian Muslims enjoy equal rights in India.

There is mob violence and places of worship being burnt down in both countries, so I am not singling out Pakistan for that.

I respect the fact that Pakistan is a majority Muslim country and I am okay with not eating during Ramadan, having my Saturday afternoon naps compromised by the loud sermons from the Masjid loudspeakers, or slaughtering a pig.

As a Pakistani Non-Muslim, what I do not respect is; terror and apartheid against Non-Muslims being perpetrated in the name of Islam.

 

[Garuda]

Its part of the constitution. PM or Preseident can only be muslims. Its more aimed at ahmedis rather than christians because in the constitution it states who is a muslim. I think current president of pakistan is a shia.

In anycase, its there because nominally everything has to be according to shariah and only a muslim president or pm can ensure that.

In lebanon, only christian can be president, PM a sunni and speaker shia. Pakitan is not alone in having such things in the constitution.

So are you happy to keep Pakistan constitution that way ?


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[cricketjoshila]

In India, you still hear of cases of forced conversions to Islam, there are local Muslim terror groups (Indian Mujahideen), and also Muslim neighborhoods where Pakistan flag is flown.

Despite this, Indian Muslims enjoy equal rights in India.

There is mob violence and places of worship being burnt down in both countries, so I am not singling out Pakistan for that.

I respect the fact that Pakistan is a majority Muslim country and I am okay with not eating during Ramadan, having my Saturday afternoon naps compromised by the loud sermons from the Masjid loudspeakers, or slaughtering a pig.

As a Pakistani Non-Muslim, what I do not respect is; terror and apartheid against Non-Muslims being perpetrated in the name of Islam.

I have a question.Knowing that Pakistan was formed in the name of Islam and was going to be a muslim majority country,why did your forefathers stayed back?

 

[Eagle_Eye]

So are you happy to keep Pakistan constitution that way ?


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As someone with roots in Azad Jammu and Kashmir, I actually have no say in Pakistan constitution. We don't vote in Pakistani elections.

Would I make it explicit that no non Muslim can be pm or president? No. But I would also go for presidential system with direct election of the executive by the people.

 

[Syed1]

We were a very secular country until Bhutto and Zia took the reigns of the country in the 70s and 80s.

 

[yeh cheez]

I have a question.Knowing that Pakistan was formed in the name of Islam and was going to be a muslim majority country,why did your forefathers stayed back?

I have asked this question to my father as to why my grandparents did not migrate to India, and his response was; "because Karachi was just as good as India back then".

I do agree with him.

Pakistan was founded by Jinnah; a Muslim who dressed as an Englishman, smoked heavily, drank alcohol, and was known to be fond of eating pork. He appointed a Hindu to create the national anthem of Pakistan and an Ahmedi as the first foreign Minister of Pakistan. Unfortunately Jinnah died too soon and was not able to set Pakistan on the right course.

Pakistan at one time had night clubs, casinos, bars, its national airline was one of the best in Asia, and was supposed to be a hub like Dubai is today. Everyone was following their religion at the same time there was a lot of tolerance in the society.

But Muslims believe that Islam is the answer to everything, had to drown the nation in Islam and with that they changed the name of the country to 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan', amended the blasphemy laws to what it is today, and changed the way we say goodbye from Khuda Hafiz to Allah Hafiz.

Today Pakistan is strife with intolerance where Muslims judge each other by the length of the beard and mark on their forehead, and the presence of Non-Muslims is simply tolerated.

Pakistan has been talibanized at every level of the society from hate material in school books to every major institution of the country. Its only a matter of time before democracy/constitution is scrapped and Sharia Law is made the supreme law for every facet of the society. There will be Morality Police to ensure women dress a certain way in public, hands being chopped off, sex slavery, and anything considered fun (concerts/music/sports) will be banned.

This cancer in Pakistan is now so deep that the only way out for us Minorities is to move out of Pakistan, and India is the only viable option for the poor and uneducated masses who want to live their lives free of Islamic apartheid.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

I have a question.Knowing that Pakistan was formed in the name of Islam and was going to be a muslim majority country,why did your forefathers stayed back?

After Indian invasion of goa, You do know lot of Christians went to Karachi before going to Portugal or their colonies. In fact Portuguese are very appreciative of the help in evacuation of their citizen, Muslim and Christian.

 

[Slog]

I have asked this question to my father as to why my grandparents did not migrate to India, and his response was; "because Karachi was just as good as India back then".

I do agree with him.

Pakistan was founded by Jinnah; a Muslim who dressed as an Englishman, smoked heavily, drank alcohol, and was known to be fond of eating pork. He appointed a Hindu to create the national anthem of Pakistan and an Ahmedi as the first foreign Minister of Pakistan. Unfortunately Jinnah died too soon and was not able to set Pakistan on the right course.

Pakistan at one time had night clubs, casinos, bars, its national airline was one of the best in Asia, and was supposed to be a hub like Dubai is today. Everyone was following their religion at the same time there was a lot of tolerance in the society.

But Muslims believe that Islam is the answer to everything, had to drown the nation in Islam and with that they changed the name of the country to 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan', amended the blasphemy laws to what it is today, and changed the way we say goodbye from Khuda Hafiz to Allah Hafiz.

Today Pakistan is strife with intolerance where Muslims judge each other by the length of the beard and mark on their forehead, and the presence of Non-Muslims is simply tolerated.

Pakistan has been talibanized at every level of the society from hate material in school books to every major institution of the country. Its only a matter of time before democracy/constitution is scrapped and Sharia Law is made the supreme law for every facet of the society. There will be Morality Police to ensure women dress a certain way in public, hands being chopped off, sex slavery, and anything considered fun (concerts/music/sports) will be banned.

This cancer in Pakistan is now so deep that the only way out for us Minorities is to move out of Pakistan, and India is the only viable option for the poor and uneducated masses who want to live their lives free of Islamic apartheid.

You have a habit of generalizing everyone which you need to correct.

And some of the claims you have made are laughable at best

 

[Slog]

After Indian invasion of goa, You do know lot of Christians went to Karachi before going to Portugal or their colonies. In fact Portuguese are very appreciative of the help in evacuation of their citizen, Muslim and Christian.

There are still a lot of Portugese descent Goans who escaped from the Indian military operation in Goa and sought a home in Karachi.

I know a few of them and they are still very happy to have made that decision

 

[Eagle_Eye]

I have asked this question to my father as to why my grandparents did not migrate to India, and his response was; "because Karachi was just as good as India back then".

I do agree with him.

Pakistan was founded by Jinnah; a Muslim who dressed as an Englishman, smoked heavily, drank alcohol, and was known to be fond of eating pork. He appointed a Hindu to create the national anthem of Pakistan and an Ahmedi as the first foreign Minister of Pakistan. Unfortunately Jinnah died too soon and was not able to set Pakistan on the right course.

Pakistan at one time had night clubs, casinos, bars, its national airline was one of the best in Asia, and was supposed to be a hub like Dubai is today. Everyone was following their religion at the same time there was a lot of tolerance in the society.

But Muslims believe that Islam is the answer to everything, had to drown the nation in Islam and with that they changed the name of the country to 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan', amended the blasphemy laws to what it is today, and changed the way we say goodbye from Khuda Hafiz to Allah Hafiz.

Today Pakistan is strife with intolerance where Muslims judge each other by the length of the beard and mark on their forehead, and the presence of Non-Muslims is simply tolerated.

Pakistan has been talibanized at every level of the society from hate material in school books to every major institution of the country. Its only a matter of time before democracy/constitution is scrapped and Sharia Law is made the supreme law for every facet of the society. There will be Morality Police to ensure women dress a certain way in public, hands being chopped off, sex slavery, and anything considered fun (concerts/music/sports) will be banned.

This cancer in Pakistan is now so deep that the only way out for us Minorities is to move out of Pakistan, and India is the only viable option for the poor and uneducated masses who want to live their lives free of Islamic apartheid.

btw, don't know where you been living, there are no sermons on Saturday Muslims. If you going to troll, at least research the basics!

Other than not being a pm or president, what other discrmination do you face?

 

[Slog]

The funny and ironic thing about this thread is that most minorities In Pakistan will not prefer to go to India considering they will hardly have it better there.

A few Hindu families from interior Sindh try to go to India and they usually end up regretting by a lot of reports. And if any minority you would think would have a good transition there you would think it would be the Hindu community. But they don't.

So you can forget about the Christian minorities even contemplating such a thing.

Poor people are treated badly in Pakistan and India both and unfortunately a lot of the minorities in Pakistan are from poor villages. The Parsees who are a well of business community for the most part are doing rather well in Karachi.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

There are still a lot of Portugese descent Goans who escaped from the Indian military operation in Goa and sought a home in Karachi.

I know a few of them and they are still very happy to have made that decision

I have a portuguese colleague, and he told me about it. I had no clue before. They really hate Nehru and Indian underhanded tactics to annexe goa.

 

[yeh cheez]

btw, don't know where you been living, there are no sermons on Saturday Muslims. If you going to troll, at least research the basics!

Other than not being a pm or president, what other discrmination do you face?

All I remember was that it was the weekend, could very well have been Friday, since Pakistan has changed the weekend days around a bit.

The worst was when it seemed like the microphone was passed around to a kid who would continue reciting some naat all afternoon. I would shut all windows and doors to muffle the sound, and go take a nap.

It is not simply about being a PM or President, but when you ban a group from holding positions of power, you essentially make them 'second-class citizens' of the country.

 

[cricketjoshila]

After Indian invasion of goa, You do know lot of Christians went to Karachi before going to Portugal or their colonies. In fact Portuguese are very appreciative of the help in evacuation of their citizen, Muslim and Christian.

You are talking of the POWs of Goan liberation war againist Portugese imperalism who flew from India to Karachi in 1962.They mostly were Portugese military and administrative personnels.

But what has that got to do with this thread?

 

[Slog]

The worst was when it seemed like the microphone was passed around to a kid who would continue reciting some naat all afternoon. I would shut all windows and doors to muffle the sound, and go take a nap.

.

Many Muslims including me are equally annoyed by that but ofcourse for you all 1.5 billion Muslims think alike and do the same thing and want the same things.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I have a portuguese colleague, and he told me about it. I had no clue before. They really hate Nehru and Indian underhanded tactics to annexe goa.

The Liberation war of Goa started way back in 1928,it was not a creation of India.

 

[Slog]

You are talking of the POWs of Goan liberation war againist Portugese imperalism who flew from India to Karachi in 1962.They mostly were Portugese military and administrative personnels.

But what has that got to do with this thread?

they chose Pakistan and are happy here despite being minorities so very relevant to the thread

 

[Eagle_Eye]

All I remember was that it was the weekend, could very well have been Friday, since Pakistan has changed the weekend days around a bit.

The worst was when it seemed like the microphone was passed around to a kid who would continue reciting some naat all afternoon. I would shut all windows and doors to muffle the sound, and go take a nap.

It is not simply about being a PM or President, but when you ban a group from holding positions of power, you essentially make them 'second-class citizens' of the country.

I am in favour of banning these loudspeaker sermons. But then again we have people allowed to beat themselves and doing self harm with razors in public on certain days of the year!

No no tell us, what other specific discrimination do you face as a non Muslim minority. Are you told to goto seperate schools, have a different section on buses and trains or forced to live in enclaves outside the cities?

 

[cricketjoshila]

they chose Pakistan and are happy here despite being minorities so very relevant to the thread

Most of them flew back to Portugal.And anyways the Pakistan of 1950s-60s was a different thing.It was viewed as a liberal islamic country with a surging economy a strong military and emerging asian giant.All that has changed.

Anyways all i wanted to ask the poster why his family stayed back.Because my grandfather and his younger bother moved from then Eastern part of Bengal to Kolkata in 1946 when it looked the partition was inevitable.They took over what was then only about 10% of the total assets the family had.Because 90% of the assets were in the eastern part.His elder brother and his only cousin stayed back n then East Pakistan as they would give up the huge assets the family had there.What happened afterwards is a different story altogether.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I am in favour of banning these loudspeaker sermons. But then again we have people allowed to beat themselves and doing self harm with razors in public on certain days of the year!

No no tell us, what other specific discrimination do you face as a non Muslim minority. Are you told to goto seperate schools, have a different section on buses and trains or forced to live in enclaves outside the cities?

I never got this sermoning on the loudspeaker daily.Is it for Allah(SWT) of for the devotees?What is the basic reason behind it?

 

[yeh cheez]

I am in favour of banning these loudspeaker sermons. But then again we have people allowed to beat themselves and doing self harm with razors in public on certain days of the year!

No no tell us, what other specific discrimination do you face as a non Muslim minority. Are you told to goto seperate schools, have a different section on buses and trains or forced to live in enclaves outside the cities?

We do not have the same voice as the 'first class citizens' i.e. Muslims of Pakistan.

Based on blasphemy Laws, can Non-Muslims get Masjids in Pakistan to be shut down for inciting hate speech against Non-Muslims? Can a Non-Muslim male married to a Non-Muslim female, change her religion on the NADRA card? Can school text books which call Non-Muslims as treacherous be changed?

 

[yeh cheez]

*Muslim female

 

[Slog]

Most of them flew back to Portugal.And anyways the Pakistan of 1950s-60s was a different thing.It was viewed as a liberal islamic country with a surging economy a strong military and emerging asian giant.All that has changed.

see that is what the biggest issue is and points to a lot of selfishness and opportunism

fact is its a tought time for every Pakistani regardless of whether they are muslims or otherwise.

so when you were okay with staying in the good times then you should be motivated to help in making it better because you are still part of the country. Its just selfishness and opportunism on OP's part to think what he is saying

Anyways he is just an individual and doesn't represent the vast majority of minorities who may think otherwise and are sensible enough to understand and realize the reality of the situation

 

[Slog]

We do not have the same voice as the 'first class citizens' i.e. Muslims of Pakistan.

Based on blasphemy Laws, can Non-Muslims get Masjids in Pakistan to be shut down for inciting hate speech against Non-Muslims? Can a Non-Muslim male married to a Non-Muslim female, change her religion on the NADRA card? Can school text books which call Non-Muslims as treacherous be changed?

what textbooks are these?

even in govt textbooks the worse it goes isto demonizing Indians rather than saying all hindus which I don't agree with anyway

and what is this female marriage thing you talked about. not very clear

 

[yeh cheez]

see that is what the biggest issue is and points to a lot of selfishness and opportunism

fact is its a tought time for every Pakistani regardless of whether they are muslims or otherwise.

so when you were okay with staying in the good times then you should be motivated to help in making it better because you are still part of the country. Its just selfishness and opportunism on OP's part to think what he is saying

Anyways he is just an individual and doesn't represent the vast majority of minorities who may think otherwise and are sensible enough to understand and realize the reality of the situation

It is selfish and opportunistic of Muslims to leave Pakistan.

It is not the same for Non-Muslims, as Muslims have made us 'second-class citizens' in our own country.

 

[cricketjoshila]

see that is what the biggest issue is and points to a lot of selfishness and opportunism

fact is its a tought time for every Pakistani regardless of whether they are muslims or otherwise.

so when you were okay with staying in the good times then you should be motivated to help in making it better because you are still part of the country. Its just selfishness and opportunism on OP's part to think what he is saying

Anyways he is just an individual and doesn't represent the vast majority of minorities who may think otherwise and are sensible enough to understand and realize the reality of the situation

See i believe that its Pakistan's job to look after its minorities.But every year 100s of them land in India and then demand citizenship and asylum.

Read These


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...rving-life-hardship-Government-help-last.html

http://www.firstpost.com/india/nowh...-escaped-pakistan-stranded-delhi-2023497.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...seek-refuge-in-Delhi/articleshow/34067840.cms

 

[Slog]

It is selfish and opportunistic of Muslims to leave Pakistan.

It is not the same for Non-Muslims, as Muslims have made us 'second-class citizens' in our own country.

no it is selfish because the choice was there 60 years ago too/

Secondly, and more importantly, the majority of the Pakistani minorities do not want to migrate and even less so to India so it is a moot point. You do not speak for every minority and neither does every Muslim think alike regardless of how much you believe or want the case to be

 

[Slog]

See i believe that its Pakistan's job to look after its minorities.But every year 100s of them land in India and then demand citizenship and asylum.

Read These


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...rving-life-hardship-Government-help-last.html

http://www.firstpost.com/india/nowh...-escaped-pakistan-stranded-delhi-2023497.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...seek-refuge-in-Delhi/articleshow/34067840.cms

yes but then there are articles which also say how badly they are struggling and want to go back. And there are even more Indians seeking asylum in other countries like Australia.

Anyways the point is not that. I do not disagree with the notion that minorties in Pakistan are being persecuted. The issue is with the approach OP takes and his insistence of painting every Muslims with the same brush which points to a total lack of thought in his logic

 

[yeh cheez]

what textbooks are these?

even in govt textbooks the worse it goes isto demonizing Indians rather than saying all hindus which I don't agree with anyway

and what is this female marriage thing you talked about. not very clear

I was talking about a person not being able to change their religion from Islam to any other.

Here is an excerpt from an article:

I believe in the right to freedom of religion, and I went to the office of Pakistan's National Database and Registration Authority, commonly referred to as NADRA, to follow up on an unanswered request to change my registered religion from Muslim to Jewish. There, an official told me that, as per policy, changing my religion from Islam to any other faith would not be allowed. Only non-Muslims are allowed to change their registered religion -- to Islam -- he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fishe...e-_b_6981120.html?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000055

 

[yeh cheez]

no it is selfish because the choice was there 60 years ago too/

Secondly, and more importantly, the majority of the Pakistani minorities do not want to migrate and even less so to India so it is a moot point. You do not speak for every minority and neither does every Muslim think alike regardless of how much you believe or want the case to be

Not all Minorities want to migrate out of Pakistan or will be able to, but if India were to open its borders to the victims of apartheid in Pakistan, it is an avenue for the persecuted Minorities to escape to.

 

[cricketjoshila]

yes but then there are articles which also say how badly they are struggling and want to go back. And there are even more Indians seeking asylum in other countries like Australia.

Anyways the point is not that. I do not disagree with the notion that minorties in Pakistan are being persecuted. The issue is with the approach OP takes and his insistence of painting every Muslims with the same brush which points to a total lack of thought in his logic

South Asians going to Australia or US or Canada or UK is a common phenomenon.Has been happening for last 70 years.But Pakistanis coming to India and seeking asylum is something Pakistan must look into.

There are many Pakistanis on this forum who go to US/UK or other western countries and enjoy equal rights but here on this thread wont suppor equal rights for Pakistani minorities.

 

[Slog]

South Asians going to Australia or US or Canada or UK is a common phenomenon.Has been happening for last 70 years.But Pakistanis coming to India and seeking asylum is something Pakistan must look into.

There are many Pakistanis on this forum who go to US/UK or other western countries and enjoy equal rights but here on this thread wont suppor equal rights for Pakistani minorities.

do let me know who said they want to persecute minorities?