Pakistan vs India (best-ever XIs) : Which team would win?

[The_Odd_One]

5 match test series to be played between India and Pakistan:

1s test: Kolkata
2nd test: Lord's
3rd test: Perth
4th test: Johannesburg
5nd test: Lahore

Who do you think will win the series? Please state your reasons.

Here are the teams:

India:
-------
1. Virender Sehwag
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Rahul Dravid
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. VVS Laxman
6. MS Dhoni (c)
7. Ravi Ashwin
8. Kapil Dev
9. Anil Kumble (vc)
10. Zaheer Khan
11. Javagal Srinath

Pakistan:
------------
1. Saeed Anwar
2. Hanif Mohammad
3. Younis Khan
4. Javed Miandad
5. Inzamam ul Haq
6. Mushtaq Mohammad (vc)
7. Sarfraz Ahmed
8. Imran Khan (c)
9. Wasim Akram
10. Saqlain Mushtaq
11. Waqar Younis

 

[The_Odd_One]

I think Pakistan will win it by 3-2. India will win at Kolkata and Lahore due to superior batting but Pakistan will take all 3 outside Asia games due to their fast bowling prowess.

 

[BD-fan]

If Imran is the captain he would have A Kadir at all cost. That takes out Mushtaq Mohammad from Kolkata and Lahore test. In the between three test, Sarfraz Nawaz or Fazal Mahmood or S Akhtar or Asif. The name of the game is 20 wickets.

 

[BD-fan]

1-0 Pakistan. The rest of them are all draws.

 

[The_Odd_One]

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[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Kolkata - Pakistan
Lords - Pakistan
Perth - India
Johannesburg - India
Lahore - Draw

 

[Hasan123]

Kolkota- Pakistan
Lords- Draw
Perth-India
Joburg- India
Lahore-Pakistan

 

[Buffet]

It's hard to say with certainty for neutral venues, but India and Pakistan have played at those grounds many times against host country. If we look at the record then we have,

India has a better record in Perth because Pakistan has lost all games at Perth.
Pakistan has a clear better record in Lords.
In Johannesburg , India has never lost a game and won one. Pakistan has never won any game and lost 2.

Ind Lahore and Kolkota, India and Pakistan have played large number of games against each other and only 14% of games resulted in win or loss. 86% of games were draw. I have no reason to think that it will change. Probability is very high for draw for both games.

Ind in Johannesburg and Pakistan in Lords should win. Lahore and Kolkota is pretty much draw for me. So we have 1-1. Now India has won a game in Perth, but just one win. Pakistan and India have lost every other game in Perth. I will give slight edge to India in Perth so I will go with 2-1 to India. In reality, Perth looks like a toss up to me and it can be easily be 2-1 to Pakistan.

 

[troodon]

Superior batting vs Superior bowling.

Same old story.

That Indian batting lineup looks just too good. Hard to see them collapse on any surface. Anything less than 300 should be considered a collapse I think.
Wish we had that team now.

 

[Rayyman]

2-0 Pakistan. We win the games at Perth and Johannesburg. The rest of them will be drawn. Unless the Lord's game is played in 1996 and not 2016.

 

[Mamoon]

Kolkata - draw
Lord's - Pakistan
Perth - India
Johannesburg draw/India
Lahore - Pakistan

2-1 to Pakistan or 2-2. It will be a draw in Kolkata because our record in India is very good, and we will win at Lord's because we always do. We are much better than India on English pitches.

India to win the Perth and will do better than Pakistan in the Jo'burg Test as well because their batsmen are better than ours and will handle the pace and bounce better. However, Jo'burg will be more forgiving for our batsmen than Perth so it might be a draw.

Pakistan will find a way to win in Lahore over 5 days.

 

[Rayyman]

Kolkata - draw
Lord's - Pakistan
Perth - India
Johannesburg draw/India
Lahore - Pakistan

2-1 to Pakistan or 2-2. It will be a draw in Kolkata because our record in India is very good, and we will win at Lord's because we always do. We are much better than India on English pitches.

India to win the Perth and will do better than Pakistan in the Jo'burg Test as well because their batsmen are better than ours and will handle the pace and bounce better. However, Jo'burg will be more forgiving for our batsmen than Perth so it might be a draw.

Pakistan will find a way to win in Lahore over 5 days.

Only Srinath has pace and bounce. On the other hand, Akram, Imran and Waqar will be very difficult to play at Perth.

 

[Buffet]

Only Srinath has pace and bounce. On the other hand, Akram, Imran and Waqar will be very difficult to play at Perth.

Pace and bounce on pitch hardly means that bowlers with pace will do well in those pitches. All mentioned bowlers(Srinath, Wasim, Ik) have not done that well in Perth. Most Asian bowlers don't bowl the correct length when they see bounce. Just going by my memories here.

 

[Haroon786]

Assuming that the best iterations of all these players are being played, it would be 3-1 Pakistan IMO if pitches aren't flat ala modern tracks.

Reasoning ?

Kolkata - a draw because the superlative batting of each team would enjoy the conditions.
Lords - permitting it isn't a road then Pakistan because of our good record there.
Perth - Would be a massacre to Pakistan with 3 ATG fast bowlers playing in their peak.
Johannesburg - India because Pakistani batsmen on a green track is a combination for disaster.
Lahore - IK playing in Pakistan vs India hasn't lost a Test in 13 matches winning 5 and drawing 8 and he won't do this time either.

Final result : 3-1 or 2-1 Pakistan.

 

[blue_champion]

4-1 to India.....
Kolkata-India day 1-2-3 pitch will take the weaker pakistani batting and stronger Indian batting out of the equation as it will be easier to bat...India trumps Pakistan in the spin department...so game set match India

Lords,Perth,Joburg-Pitch will equalize the fast bowling on both sides and as Indian batsman are way better equipped to handle good bowling on a fast friendly pitch...no brainer India

Lahore-Flat Patta means Pakistani batting will match India here and I would have gone for a draw but I will give the home advantage to Pakistan to eek out a win here as I am very fair in such analysis.

4-1 or 4-0-1 to India

 

[Rayyman]

4-1 to India.....
Kolkata-India day 1-2-3 pitch will take the weaker pakistani batting and stronger Indian batting out of the equation as it will be easier to bat...India trumps Pakistan in the spin department...so game set match India

Lords,Perth,Joburg-Pitch will equalize the fast bowling on both sides and as Indian batsman are way better equipped to handle good bowling on a fast friendly pitch...no brainer India

Lahore-Flat Patta means Pakistani batting will match India here and I would have gone for a draw but I will give the home advantage to Pakistan to eek out a win here as I am very fair in such analysis.

4-1 or 4-0-1 to India

What? Pakistan's bowlers are all 145+ kph consistently. India's bowlers will bowl 145 kph once a match. Surely the Pakistani bowling is tougher to play.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

It would be a very competitive series. Pakistan winning more games due to better bowling quality and variety.

People are underestimating Pakistani batting here. I reckon 3-1 or 3-2 to Pakistan.

 

[PakLFC]

Pak will win for sure. Our batting supposedly our weak point is no way near as poor their bowling line up. None of our batsmen would be remotely afraid of Srinath or Zaheer who were both average bowlers at best. Our express bowlers will make them taste leather and bully the hell out of them.

 

[PakLFC]

Good team though I am replacing Younis Khan with Zaheer Abbas. He use to spank the Indian's so hard scoring century after century that they'd cry "Zaheer, ab to bas kar!".

 

[msb314]

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With the teams you have selected - we are losing at Kolkota, Johannesburg and Perth for sure.

Lord's is a toss up - if we get a flat, dry wicket like we did this summer then we have a chance of winning but otherwise on a green wicket - we will be toast....

At Lahore we would have home advantage but if the curator dishes out a flat phatta (like in 2006) it will easily be a draw.

So best case scenario would be 3-2 to India and worse case would be 4-0 (drawing at Lahore)

 

[msb314]

4-1 to India.....
Kolkata-India day 1-2-3 pitch will take the weaker pakistani batting and stronger Indian batting out of the equation as it will be easier to bat...India trumps Pakistan in the spin department...so game set match India

Lords,Perth,Joburg-Pitch will equalize the fast bowling on both sides and as Indian batsman are way better equipped to handle good bowling on a fast friendly pitch...no brainer India

Lahore-Flat Patta means Pakistani batting will match India here and I would have gone for a draw but I will give the home advantage to Pakistan to eek out a win here as I am very fair in such analysis.

4-1 or 4-0-1 to India

Agree and good analysis.

However, if the Lord's wicket is flat and dry - then we may have a chance of winning....

 

[Bilal7]

- Kolkata: India will win this due to having home advantage, two front-line spinners and a batting lineup that is beastly against spin.
- Lord's: Pakistan will win this due to their pace attack.
- Perth: Pakistan will win due to their pace attack.
- Jo'Burg: Pakistan will win due to their pace attack.
- Lahore: This will be a boring, high-scoring draw if played on a regular Lahore pitch. Especially because bowlers on both sides will be exhausted.

Pakistan take the series 3:1, something that is also reflected in Pakistan's historic dominance over India.

 

[MMHS]

First of all, I'll have 1 or 2 changes in both teams, but I am sticking to the same XI as per OP.

Now, for Test matches, first & last concern is taking 20 wickets. In that IND line-up, there are 2 spinners, who with due respect, against an all-time PAK XI with some of the best ever spin players, are not going to do any dodo out side Eden. Ashwin's average in ENG, SAF & AUS against current lot is not to be proud of - against that PAK line-up it's not likely to be any better; my hunch is, it'll be pathetic. Kumble is quite economical any where, but outside home, he doesn't posses much penetrative threat. Kapil, Sri & Zak provides a decent pace attack - that's it, decent. BUT, that PAK line-up has Sarfu at 7, Imran at 8, Was at 9 & Saq at 10 - this Indian attack will do great to get 20 wickets on a GREEN WACA or Jo'Burg flyer with 3 fast medium pacers - but then they'll have to bat on same wicket against those 3 PAK pacers as well.

So, my first conclusion is, in those 4 Tests outside IND, it's ZERO IND - how many PAK will win, is a question - my hunch is 3. For the Eden Test, in history, IND has won 1 Test with their best ever team (I think 5 or 6 players of this XI was playing there, PAK had probably 2 from this XI) & 1 T20 there against PAK. If it's a typical Eden road, I don't see IND taking 20 wickets, but should bat out for a good draw. If it's a typical Indian sluggish wicket which gradually breaks after Day 2, AND, only if IND bats first, I see them winning. But, on such wickets, PAK batting first, it'll be stone cold experience for IND with PAK batting first & then Saqlin holding from one end while the 3 pacers bowling relentlessly at pace & reversing with old ball from other end.

My summary is on typical Eden, Lord's, WACA, Jo'Burg & Gaddafi 5 wickets - DEPENDING ON WHICH WAY TOSS GOES AT EDEN, result will be between PAK winning 5-0 to PAK winning 3-1.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

I'm gonna honest and say it's either gonna be 3-1 or 4-0 Pakistan. Indias attack is pretty poor compared to ours

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

This will be a walk over for Pakistan - a massive one I might add as well. Bowling wins you test matches as shown by history and the current Test series going on in Australia. If however for some bizarre reason they do manage to get a score around 300ish then I see our batting drawing the game with ease.

Lol Srinath and Zaheer They wouldn't be able to get past the openers....Forget about Javed, Inzi and YK.

I believe if we're comparing all time XIs then it's also very appropriate to check the Win / Loss record for both teams as well. Needless to say we can clearly see who the better test side is historically !!

Plus as captain and we're talking about a team that could probably wreck havoc on ATG XIs

 

[Bilal7]

This will be a walk over for Pakistan - a massive one I might add as well. Bowling wins you test matches as shown by history and the current Test series going on in Australia. If however for some bizarre reason they do manage to get a score around 300ish then I see our batting drawing the game with ease.

Lol Srinath and Zaheer They wouldn't be able to get past the openers....Forget about Javed, Inzi and YK.

I believe if we're comparing all time XIs then it's also very appropriate to check the Win / Loss record for both teams as well. Needless to say we can clearly see who the better test side is historically !!

Plus as captain and we're talking about a team that could probably wreck havoc on ATG XIs

Would love to see Ashwin bowl to Miandad and Younis in the last four matches.

 

[street cricketer]

I think we have discussed this topic a lot here. Pakistan have had the edge over India at Kolkata iirc. And they have a great record at Lords, so they'll nick that one too. But even their best ever batsmen have struggled against pace and bounce in Australia and South Africa, especially at the WACA and Jo'burg and have a shoddy record there. So India will have the edge there. I'm assuming that Pakistan will produce the patta of the highest order at Kolkata as they always do, so that will be a high scoring draw.

Overall I can't see anything other than a drawn series or a Pakistan win. It's pretty straight forward. Pakistan will win more tests by virtue of their better bowlers while India more ODIs by virtue of their better batsmen. In the case of India, they will draw more tests outside asia but winning will be a bit difficult. But Pakistan very much less so, they will win more than India due to their great bowling attack but also lose more due to their unreliable batting line up.

 

[Bilal7]

I think we have discussed this topic a lot here. Pakistan have had the edge over India at Kolkata iirc. And they have a great record at Lords, so they'll nick that one too. But even their best ever batsmen have struggled against pace and bounce in Australia and South Africa, especially at the WACA and Jo'burg and have a shoddy record there. So India will have the edge there. I'm assuming that Pakistan will produce the patta of the highest order at Kolkata as they always do, so that will be a high scoring draw.

Overall I can't see anything other than a drawn series or a Pakistan win. It's pretty straight forward. Pakistan will win more tests by virtue of their better bowlers while India more ODIs by virtue of their better batsmen. In the case of India, they will draw more tests outside asia but winning will be a bit difficult. But Pakistan very much less so, they will win more than India due to their great bowling attack but also lose more due to their unreliable batting line up.

Did you just call this:

1. Saeed Anwar
2. Hanif Mohammad
3. Younis Khan
4. Javed Miandad
5. Inzamam ul Haq
6. Mushtaq Mohammad (vc)
7. Sarfraz Ahmed
8. Imran Khan (c)

An "unreliable batting lineup"? This lineup will score pretty consistently against Zaheer, Kapil and Srinath, none of whom is a great pacer, which is what is being discussed. The OP isn't asking how each team will do against the great West Indies or Australia.

 

[Suleiman]

Good team though I am replacing Younis Khan with Zaheer Abbas. He use to spank the Indian's so hard scoring century after century that they'd cry "Zaheer, ab to bas kar!".

Was gonna say the same. Him or Yousuf over Younis.

 

[Sachin136]

This will be a walk over for Pakistan - a massive one I might add as well. Bowling wins you test matches as shown by history and the current Test series going on in Australia. If however for some bizarre reason they do manage to get a score around 300ish then I see our batting drawing the game with ease.

Lol Srinath and Zaheer They wouldn't be able to get past the openers....Forget about Javed, Inzi and YK.

I believe if we're comparing all time XIs then it's also very appropriate to check the Win / Loss record for both teams as well. Needless to say we can clearly see who the better test side is historically !!

Plus as captain and we're talking about a team that could probably wreck havoc on ATG XIs

What are you talking about? The main difference between the two sides is their batting. Starc and others have bowled decently.

You think Gavaskar, Sachin, Dravid and the others can't score 300 against that bowling attack?

 

[Sachin136]

First of all, I'll have 1 or 2 changes in both teams, but I am sticking to the same XI as per OP.

Now, for Test matches, first & last concern is taking 20 wickets. In that IND line-up, there are 2 spinners, who with due respect, against an all-time PAK XI with some of the best ever spin players, are not going to do any dodo out side Eden. Ashwin's average in ENG, SAF & AUS against current lot is not to be proud of - against that PAK line-up it's not likely to be any better; my hunch is, it'll be pathetic. Kumble is quite economical any where, but outside home, he doesn't posses much penetrative threat. Kapil, Sri & Zak provides a decent pace attack - that's it, decent. BUT, that PAK line-up has Sarfu at 7, Imran at 8, Was at 9 & Saq at 10 - this Indian attack will do great to get 20 wickets on a GREEN WACA or Jo'Burg flyer with 3 fast medium pacers - but then they'll have to bat on same wicket against those 3 PAK pacers as well.

So, my first conclusion is, in those 4 Tests outside IND, it's ZERO IND - how many PAK will win, is a question - my hunch is 3. For the Eden Test, in history, IND has won 1 Test with their best ever team (I think 5 or 6 players of this XI was playing there, PAK had probably 2 from this XI) & 1 T20 there against PAK. If it's a typical Eden road, I don't see IND taking 20 wickets, but should bat out for a good draw. If it's a typical Indian sluggish wicket which gradually breaks after Day 2, AND, only if IND bats first, I see them winning. But, on such wickets, PAK batting first, it'll be stone cold experience for IND with PAK batting first & then Saqlin holding from one end while the 3 pacers bowling relentlessly at pace & reversing with old ball from other end.

My summary is on typical Eden, Lord's, WACA, Jo'Burg & Gaddafi 5 wickets - DEPENDING ON WHICH WAY TOSS GOES AT EDEN, result will be between PAK winning 5-0 to PAK winning 3-1.

Another way of saying that is, in history, Pakistan has won one test at Eden, with Anwar, Yousuf, Wasim, Shoaib, and Saqlain.

 

[street cricketer]

Did you just call this:



An "unreliable batting lineup"? This lineup will score pretty consistently against Zaheer, Kapil and Srinath, none of whom is a great pacer, which is what is being discussed. The OP isn't asking how each team will do against the great West Indies or Australia.

Yeah.

In Australia and South Africa. If they were reliable, Pakistan would've won series long ago in South Africa and Australia with the gun bowling attack they have had over the years.

 

[MMHS]

Another way of saying that is, in history, Pakistan has won one test at Eden, with Anwar, Yousuf, Wasim, Shoaib, and Saqlain.

True, but IND was host & they are by far dominant at their home. If it's 1-1 in history, why should we consider IND to be favorite there?

 

[Bilal7]

Yeah.

In Australia and South Africa. If they were reliable, Pakistan would've won series long ago in South Africa and Australia with the gun bowling attack they have had over the years.

Yeah? Please show me a few scorecards of the matches in which all eight of these players batted together. If you can't, it's because they never batted together and instead, every Pakistani team that has played in Australia or South Africa has had a couple of passengers at least, unlike this team which has no passengers.

Also, Pakistan has not had to face Zaheer, Srinath and Kapil in Jo'Burg or Perth before. I'm sure the Pakistani batting would be pretty consistent in scoring big against this pace attack.

 

[MMHS]

I think we have discussed this topic a lot here. Pakistan have had the edge over India at Kolkata iirc. And they have a great record at Lords, so they'll nick that one too. But even their best ever batsmen have struggled against pace and bounce in Australia and South Africa, especially at the WACA and Jo'burg and have a shoddy record there. So India will have the edge there. I'm assuming that Pakistan will produce the patta of the highest order at Kolkata as they always do, so that will be a high scoring draw.

Overall I can't see anything other than a drawn series or a Pakistan win. It's pretty straight forward. Pakistan will win more tests by virtue of their better bowlers while India more ODIs by virtue of their better batsmen. In the case of India, they will draw more tests outside asia but winning will be a bit difficult. But Pakistan very much less so, they will win more than India due to their great bowling attack but also lose more due to their unreliable batting line up.

I have thought that, trust me - but my thought process stopped at Lillee, McGrath, Lee, Gillespee, Thompson ..... Donald, Fanny De, Pollock, Styen, Makhya, Vernon ............ Kapil, Sri, Zak.

 

[Rayyman]

Yeah? Please show me a few scorecards of the matches in which all eight of these players batted together. If you can't, it's because they never batted together and instead, every Pakistani team that has played in Australia or South Africa has had a couple of passengers at least, unlike this team which has no passengers.

Also, Pakistan has not had to face Zaheer, Srinath and Kapil in Jo'Burg or Perth before. I'm sure the Pakistani batting would be pretty consistent in scoring big against this pace attack.

Exactly. They will only do well against us on green pitches in places like Birmingham and Napier.

 

[Sachin136]

Some people are getting too specific here, talking about the records of players on specific grounds and whatnot. Cricket isn't a linear game.

But since they brought it up, Indian players have good records at those grounds. Zaheer got 10 wickets over 2 matches against Gibbs, Smith, Faf, Kallis, AB, Boucher and Shaun Pollock at New Wanderers. At Lord's, Zaheer has 11 wickets against KP, Bell, Strauss, Cook, Prior, Vaughan, Flintoff and Alec Stewart over 4 innings.

 

[street cricketer]

I have thought that, trust me - but my thought process stopped at Lillee, McGrath, Lee, Gillespee, Thompson ..... Donald, Fanny De, Pollock, Styen, Makhya, Vernon ............ Kapil, Sri, Zak.

I know that the Indian pacers are a notch below and I definitely took that into consideration, which is why I said the overall series would probably end in favour of Pakistan 3-1 (Kolkata, Lords, WACA/Jo'burg). But I can surely see the Pak collapsing once at either the WACA or Jo'burg. It's not like Kapil or Zak never bowled great spells in Australia.

The thing is, the two venues mentioned (Jo'burg and WACA) are places where India clearly have an edge over Pakistan. India has also been demolished at the WACA but they also have had good performances there. And Jo'burg has been a place where India has traditionally performed well in South Africa (like Pakistan at the Lords). I know that the Indian pacers aren't the same as the Aussie or the Saffer ones, but you can never compare sides with variables like that. A Sreesanth has skittled a formidable South African line up having Smith, Kallis, Boucher, Amla, AB, etc., while an RP Singh has skittled the ATG Australian side at home, logic wouldn't indicate that. Reason is because the Indian pacers would struggle in a track like Adelaide, but the conditions in WACA or Jo'burg may enhance their abilities just like a Monty Panesar on a rank turner. So it's not unreasonable imo to expect a collapse or two of the Pak batting line up against Zaheer, Srinath and Kapil when they don't really have a good record in Australia and South Africa, never mind places like the WACA.

Btw it's a joke that Ashwin is in the line up, it should be Chandra or Bedi.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

We'd thrash India black and blue. None of our great bowlers were pitch dependent. Attack comprised of Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Yasir would be just too much to handle for any lineup. Who are you gonna score against? They're all you miss I hit type of bowlers, always at the stumps. You can only keep out so many balls swinging at 90mph+.

 

[street cricketer]

Yeah? Please show me a few scorecards of the matches in which all eight of these players batted together. If you can't, it's because they never batted together and instead, every Pakistani team that has played in Australia or South Africa has had a couple of passengers at least, unlike this team which has no passengers.

Also, Pakistan has not had to face Zaheer, Srinath and Kapil in Jo'Burg or Perth before. I'm sure the Pakistani batting would be pretty consistent in scoring big against this pace attack.

Why are you arguing with me..None of those mentioned there are great against pace and bounce. The best there in that line up in SA and Aus is Anwar who just about averages 40. Rest all average in the sub 40s.

 

[MMHS]

I know that the Indian pacers are a notch below and I definitely took that into consideration, which is why I said the overall series would probably end in favour of Pakistan 3-1 (Kolkata, Lords, WACA/Jo'burg). But I can surely see the Pak collapsing once at either the WACA or Jo'burg. It's not like Kapil or Zak never bowled great spells in Australia.

The thing is, the two venues mentioned (Jo'burg and WACA) are places where India clearly have an edge over Pakistan. India has also been demolished at the WACA but they also have had good performances there. And Jo'burg has been a place where India has traditionally performed well in South Africa (like Pakistan at the Lords). I know that the Indian pacers aren't the same as the Aussie or the Saffer ones, but you can never compare sides with variables like that. A Sreesanth has skittled a formidable South African line up having Smith, Kallis, Boucher, Amla, AB, etc., while an RP Singh has skittled the ATG Australian side at home, logic wouldn't indicate that. Reason is because the Indian pacers would struggle in a track like Adelaide, but the conditions in WACA or Jo'burg may enhance their abilities just like a Monty Panesar on a rank turner. So it's not unreasonable imo to expect a collapse or two of the Pak batting line up against Zaheer, Srinath and Kapil when they don't really have a good record in Australia and South Africa, never mind places like the WACA.

Btw it's a joke that Ashwin is in the line up, it should be Chandra or Bedi.

You can't compare a team with individual performance. For example, Azhar Mahmood has one of the best Test hundreds at J'Burg, or Md. Akram has 5fer at WACA. Over a 70 years period, there are individual incidences by players at one particular match. For example, IND lost 8-0 in ENG & AUS, a very young & depleted PAK side made it 4-2 against same teams in UK, that too the last match being dubious, in similar time.

My general logic is, majority of the IND players are from last 20-25 years, when they were dominant, still had probably at per or slightly below head to head. Cricket in PAK has declined big time in last 2 decades - the only player debuting in that PAK side after 2000 in Sarfu (YK as well, FEB 2000). PAK drew a series in SAF 1-1 in '96 & lost 2-1 there in 2006 then lost 3-0; which indicates a gradual decline. Same, I can say about AUS-PAK contest. Therefore, it's difficult to bring comparison by what IND & PAK has done against other teams. Also, these players are picked from different era - therefore direct comparison shouldn't be done.

What I see is, IND's opening pair is better than PAK; but that gap will be minimized a bit for left-right combo.

Frok 3 to 5 IND has a batting advantage, but PAK has an advantage from 6 to 10. So, overall, there is not much gap in Test batting. If I factor that with the respective bowling that those two teams facing in Head to Head, that advantage doesn't stand much.

But, coming to the bowling, this is absolutely no comparison - I won't go to average & SR, because that's a factor of performance against other teams as well; but, in head to head - Imran, Wasim, Waquar, Saq, Mushi vs Kapil, Zak, Sri, Ash & Anil is not even remotely a contest.

In cricket, it's not a comparison between average & strike rate; rather think about that IND batting XI taking on those 5 PAK bowlers & that PAK batting XI taking on those 5 IND bowlers - judge yourself & be honest with you.

 

[Kakar]

Difference between top bowlers of Pakistan and India is greater compared to the difference between top batsmen of India and Pakistan, so I believe Pakistan will edge it.

 

[Sachin136]

You can't compare a team with individual performance. For example, Azhar Mahmood has one of the best Test hundreds at J'Burg, or Md. Akram has 5fer at WACA. Over a 70 years period, there are individual incidences by players at one particular match. For example, IND lost 8-0 in ENG & AUS, a very young & depleted PAK side made it 4-2 against same teams in UK, that too the last match being dubious, in similar time.

My general logic is, majority of the IND players are from last 20-25 years, when they were dominant, still had probably at per or slightly below head to head. Cricket in PAK has declined big time in last 2 decades - the only player debuting in that PAK side after 2000 in Sarfu (YK as well, FEB 2000). PAK drew a series in SAF 1-1 in '96 & lost 2-1 there in 2006 then lost 3-0; which indicates a gradual decline. Same, I can say about AUS-PAK contest. Therefore, it's difficult to bring comparison by what IND & PAK has done against other teams. Also, these players are picked from different era - therefore direct comparison shouldn't be done.

What I see is, IND's opening pair is better than PAK; but that gap will be minimized a bit for left-right combo.

Frok 3 to 5 IND has a batting advantage, but PAK has an advantage from 6 to 10. So, overall, there is not much gap in Test batting. If I factor that with the respective bowling that those two teams facing in Head to Head, that advantage doesn't stand much.

But, coming to the bowling, this is absolutely no comparison - I won't go to average & SR, because that's a factor of performance against other teams as well; but, in head to head - Imran, Wasim, Waquar, Saq, Mushi vs Kapil, Zak, Sri, Ash & Anil is not even remotely a contest.

In cricket, it's not a comparison between average & strike rate; rather think about that IND batting XI taking on those 5 PAK bowlers & that PAK batting XI taking on those 5 IND bowlers - judge yourself & be honest with you.

The XI posted in the OP isn't very good. Having someone like Amarnath for Ashwin would make India's 6-10 better than Pakistan's (in terms of batting). For the openers and 3-5, there is no comparison either.

Sehwag, Gavaskar, Sachin, Dravid, Laxman, Amarnath, Dhoni vs Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain and Pak batters vs Kapil, Zak, Srinath and Kumble/Chandra. Pakistan would probably win, but certainly not 4-0.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I included Ashwin because all time Indian XI needs to have 5 specialist bowlers without compromising the batting strength. Top 5 are already rock solid so it makes sense to have a second spinner who can also bat.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I know that the Indian pacers are a notch below and I definitely took that into consideration, which is why I said the overall series would probably end in favour of Pakistan 3-1 (Kolkata, Lords, WACA/Jo'burg). But I can surely see the Pak collapsing once at either the WACA or Jo'burg. It's not like Kapil or Zak never bowled great spells in Australia.

The thing is, the two venues mentioned (Jo'burg and WACA) are places where India clearly have an edge over Pakistan. India has also been demolished at the WACA but they also have had good performances there. And Jo'burg has been a place where India has traditionally performed well in South Africa (like Pakistan at the Lords). I know that the Indian pacers aren't the same as the Aussie or the Saffer ones, but you can never compare sides with variables like that. A Sreesanth has skittled a formidable South African line up having Smith, Kallis, Boucher, Amla, AB, etc., while an RP Singh has skittled the ATG Australian side at home, logic wouldn't indicate that. Reason is because the Indian pacers would struggle in a track like Adelaide, but the conditions in WACA or Jo'burg may enhance their abilities just like a Monty Panesar on a rank turner. So it's not unreasonable imo to expect a collapse or two of the Pak batting line up against Zaheer, Srinath and Kapil when they don't really have a good record in Australia and South Africa, never mind places like the WACA.

Btw it's a joke that Ashwin is in the line up, it should be Chandra or Bedi.

5th bowler should be able to bat. Hence, Ashwin is there.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Also, a lot of people are taking Pakistani batting light.

Anwar, Hanif, Younis, Miandad, Inzamam, Mushtaq, Sarfraz, Imran, and Wasim is a very strong batting line up. Even Saqlain and Waqar were not complete tailenders.

Similarly, Indian bowling is not that week. There is a lot of variety in that bowling attack.

 

[MMHS]

The XI posted in the OP isn't very good. Having someone like Amarnath for Ashwin would make India's 6-10 better than Pakistan's (in terms of batting). For the openers and 3-5, there is no comparison either.

Sehwag, Gavaskar, Sachin, Dravid, Laxman, Amarnath, Dhoni vs Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain and Pak batters vs Kapil, Zak, Srinath and Kumble/Chandra. Pakistan would probably win, but certainly not 4-0.

Won't - I have full respect on Jimmy, but you haven't seen (or don't know) Mushi. As I said, there are players from different era, so comparing average doesn't make sense. MS & Sarfu are playing in similar era, so, their average can be comparable - but that average of Imran, Wasim & Saq simply doesn't tell their capability with bat. Also, if you take out Ash for Jimmy - there goes India's only chance of win (At Eden, that too if the Toss is won). Do you honestly believe that 4 men attack is going to do any thing? Regarding that top 5, why you are taking it as over-whelming advantage (no comparison ??) Saeed, Hanif, YK, Javed, Inzy as a batting combo, how far behind Sunny, Viru, Rahul, ST & VVS? That PAK top 5 are master of spin play, their over all record won't mater much when it comes to face IND. Also, if you take out Ash for Chandra (I'll take Bedi) & PAK then takes out Mushi for Shoaib or Fazal Mahmood or Asif?


Look, I have no stake here - I am explaining what I can see. To me, the biggest match winners in Test cricket are the bowling all-rounders - specialist bowlers that make the team on bowling merit & can contribute with bat. These two set are composed of great cricketers - cricketers of similar aura we have seen in every era. But, in hat mix, there are 2 players with bowling & batting average of 23/38 & 23/22; then there is a fast bowler with 23/44 (SR) stats.

It's not even a contest, trust me - but everyone can have their own logic, so no issues, I won't drag it.

 

[street cricketer]

You can't compare a team with individual performance. For example, Azhar Mahmood has one of the best Test hundreds at J'Burg, or Md. Akram has 5fer at WACA. Over a 70 years period, there are individual incidences by players at one particular match. For example, IND lost 8-0 in ENG & AUS, a very young & depleted PAK side made it 4-2 against same teams in UK, that too the last match being dubious, in similar time.

My general logic is, majority of the IND players are from last 20-25 years, when they were dominant, still had probably at per or slightly below head to head. Cricket in PAK has declined big time in last 2 decades - the only player debuting in that PAK side after 2000 in Sarfu (YK as well, FEB 2000). PAK drew a series in SAF 1-1 in '96 & lost 2-1 there in 2006 then lost 3-0; which indicates a gradual decline. Same, I can say about AUS-PAK contest. Therefore, it's difficult to bring comparison by what IND & PAK has done against other teams. Also, these players are picked from different era - therefore direct comparison shouldn't be done.

What I see is, IND's opening pair is better than PAK; but that gap will be minimized a bit for left-right combo.

Frok 3 to 5 IND has a batting advantage, but PAK has an advantage from 6 to 10. So, overall, there is not much gap in Test batting. If I factor that with the respective bowling that those two teams facing in Head to Head, that advantage doesn't stand much.

But, coming to the bowling, this is absolutely no comparison - I won't go to average & SR, because that's a factor of performance against other teams as well; but, in head to head - Imran, Wasim, Waquar, Saq, Mushi vs Kapil, Zak, Sri, Ash & Anil is not even remotely a contest.

In cricket, it's not a comparison between average & strike rate; rather think about that IND batting XI taking on those 5 PAK bowlers & that PAK batting XI taking on those 5 IND bowlers - judge yourself & be honest with you.

I guess we have to agree to disagree here MMHS. Cricket is never linear and never played on paper. Take India's tour of Pakistan in 89 for example. Pakistan were arguably the world's best team then after having drawn with the West Indies in their own home just about a year ago while India were at best, similar to what Sri Lanka is now. Pakistan had Miandad, Ijaz Ahmed, Imran Khan, Wasim, Waqar, Qadir in their ranks while the only player of comparable quality in India was Azhar. Yeah, the likes of Manjrekar, Chika and Sidhu were good batsmen in their own right, but not really a competition for Imran, Waz, Waqar and Qadir. Tendulkar was there but he was younger and more boyish than what Hameed is now. If a pre series prediction thread was posted here, it would invariably be a one sided whitewash and thrashing in favour of the hosts. But it didn't quite pan out in a similar manner, all 4 matches were drawn. I'm aware that all the matches were played in the flattest of conditions, but none of the great Pak bowlers were pitch dependent anyway.

I'm not biased at all. The series happens at Lahore, Kolkata, Lords, Perth and Joburg. Ideally India has the advantage in 3 venues (yeah it's 1-1 at Kolkata but home advantage is home advantage). But I still can't see India winning the series without great bowlers, despite the series being played at Perth and Joburg where Pak have played 8, lost 7 and drawn 1. Pakistan have always lost at the Perth even if the bowlers were Hogg, Hurst, Dymock, Yardley, Rackerman, Lawson, etc. (I admit that I know none of them other than Hurst and Lawson, but I assume Sri, Kapil and Zak weren't too worse than them).

Overall, Pakistan will win 2-1 or 3-1, if India play at their best, they can nick a draw. But I just can't see a scenario of India winning the series regardless of their batsmen because of the edge Pakistan has in their bowling. I also just can't see the series being one sided at all, the nostalgia always gets the better of all of us and makes the past players flawless than they actually were.

 

[anuk]

pakistan will crush india )

look at that FTB batting line up of india's. shewag opening on a bouncy track and bunch of other campaigners like dravid, dhoni etc who dont even like to visit cities like perth even on a holiday. but i fully expect tendulkar to accumulate meaningless, non-impact runs especially when the series is over.

compare that with inzi and javed in the pakistani line up who have proven time and again that they can score when it counts. having the double centurion akram at 9 makes it a ridiculous lineup.

less said about the campaigners that make up the indian bowling the better. guys like srinath and zaheer would struggle to make the current pakistani xi, let alone an ATG one it is possible the two HTBs ashwin and kumble might be able to get india close to a win on a doctored indian wicket at some point tho.

pakistani attack is a perfect mix of left and right arm, spin and pace, swing and seam. it has everything u would ever want in an attack and every single one of them is a ATG.

the captaincy comparison is too hilarious to even respond half-seriously to.

result 4-0 or 4-1 to pakistan.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

I guess we have to agree to disagree here MMHS. Cricket is never linear and never played on paper. Take India's tour of Pakistan in 89 for example. Pakistan were arguably the world's best team then after having drawn with the West Indies in their own home just about a year ago while India were at best, similar to what Sri Lanka is now. Pakistan had Miandad, Ijaz Ahmed, Imran Khan, Wasim, Waqar, Qadir in their ranks while the only player of comparable quality in India was Azhar. Yeah, the likes of Manjrekar, Chika and Sidhu were good batsmen in their own right, but not really a competition for Imran, Waz, Waqar and Qadir. Tendulkar was there but he was younger and more boyish than what Hameed is now. If a pre series prediction thread was posted here, it would invariably be a one sided whitewash and thrashing in favour of the hosts. But it didn't quite pan out in a similar manner, all 4 matches were drawn. I'm aware that all the matches were played in the flattest of conditions, but none of the great Pak bowlers were pitch dependent anyway.

Imran was past it by that time(37), while Wasim and Waqar were rookies just starting out their careers.

Most would predict with hesitancy if there was such a thread.

 

[street cricketer]

Imran was past it by that time(37), while Wasim and Waqar were rookies just starting out their careers.

Most would predict with hesitancy if there was such a thread.

Agreed on Imran, but he still was a very good bowler mind you (averaged 26 in the 2 years before). Waz made his debut in 85, so that's nearly 5 years since he made his debut (although I think he wasn't as good as he was in the 90s). But Waqar simply was a force of nature, he had a phenomenal start to his career and was one of the top 3 bowlers in the world across all formats in his very first and second years of his international career. It was only after 94 or 95, I think he declined with injuries.

Forget you guys, I would've predicted a one sided thrashing.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Agreed on Imran, but he still was a very good bowler mind you (averaged 26 in the 2 years before). Waz made his debut in 85, so that's nearly 5 years since he made his debut (although I think he wasn't as good as he was in the 90s). But Waqar simply was a force of nature, he had a phenomenal start to his career and was one of the top 3 bowlers in the world across all formats in his very first and second years of his international career. It was only after 94 or 95, I think he declined with injuries.

Forget you guys, I would've predicted a one sided thrashing.

2 years is a long time when you're in your late 30s. Wasim was still very much a rookie, remember he made his debut as a teenager. It was after the Australian series he matured as a bowler and took off. This was Waqar's debut series.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Fantasy games....dunno man.

It will be down to which side handles pressure better just like all Indo-Pak games.

Regardless of team strength it will be close but advantage Pakistan due to their ATG bowling lineup.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Also Farokh Engineer will be the keeper in India's all time XI.

WK plus clutch bat.

 

[Mamoon]

Only Srinath has pace and bounce. On the other hand, Akram, Imran and Waqar will be very difficult to play at Perth.

All three bowlers you mentioned were better on Asian style pitches than bouncy pitches, whereas even average bowlers can trouble Pakistani batsmen on bouncy or seaming wickets, which is why I think India holds the edge in Australia and South Africa.

 

[Bilal7]

Why are you arguing with me..None of those mentioned there are great against pace and bounce. The best there in that line up in SA and Aus is Anwar who just about averages 40. Rest all average in the sub 40s.

It's called a discussion which is what everyone is doing on this forum. Quit acting so offended just because I've backed you into a corner.

It had more to do with batted against bowlers like Donald, McGrath, Warne, Pollock, Steyn and Gillespie in bowling friendly conditions, rather than just the conditions themselves.

I highly doubt our batsmen would get bounced out by Kapil and Zaheer in Perth.

 

[Ankit007]

1-1

 

[Rana]

I think the XIs would be selected on the basis of who performs well against India from Pakistan and vice Versa instead of players who have been world class throughout their careers. There have been some above average cricketers such as Shoaib Malik and Salman Butt who raised their games considerably against India

 

[MMHS]

All three bowlers you mentioned were better on Asian style pitches than bouncy pitches, whereas even average bowlers can trouble Pakistani batsmen on bouncy or seaming wickets, which is why I think India holds the edge in Australia and South Africa.

Doesn't - it's hypothetical discussion, hence anyone can put any argument; BUT, that Indian line-up has 6 players, including 3 bowlers who were main stay of a great Indian generation which has the glorious record of 1 Test win at Dhaka & 1 at Colombo, within a period of 15 years & 7 months ............. The PAK batting line-up you are looking at is post County era - apart from YK, other 6 in that line-up are a bit more that being troubled by average bowlers on bouncy & seeming wickets.

All that glitters is not gold - barring Gavaskar, that top 5 of Indian team also has glorious past at WI, NZ, SAF even Harare - when there was a small target & wicket had something for the bowlers.

 

[shaz619]

It would be total annihilation and absolute devastation, 5-0 to Pak and there is doubt in my mind of that result; our bowlers are superior and batsman will do the job against that attack across all conditions. There is no such thing as who handles pressure better when there is a huge gulf in class between the teams, pak's best XI are on another planet; that India XI are not bad by any means but just not a challenge for pak's best

 

[street cricketer]

It's called a discussion which is what everyone is doing on this forum. Quit acting so offended just because I've backed you into a corner.

It had more to do with batted against bowlers like Donald, McGrath, Warne, Pollock, Steyn and Gillespie in bowling friendly conditions, rather than just the conditions themselves.

I highly doubt our batsmen would get bounced out by Kapil and Zaheer in Perth.

Arrey Billoo, I apologise if I came across as harsh there. I meant there was nothing to be argued here because those batsmen have struggled in Australia and South Africa. And I'm aware that the Indian bowlers aren't Lillee and co, but average bowlers become better bowlers in helpful conditions (like the WACA) while great bowlers shine through even under flat conditions. Bowlers like Manoj Prabhakar have got a lot of wickets in England, not because he is the second coming of Wasim, but because helpful conditions accentuate their abilities. So yeah, I see them getting troubled overseas.

 

[street cricketer]

Doesn't - it's hypothetical discussion, hence anyone can put any argument; BUT, that Indian line-up has 6 players, including 3 bowlers who were main stay of a great Indian generation which has the glorious record of 1 Test win at Dhaka & 1 at Colombo, within a period of 15 years & 7 months ............. The PAK batting line-up you are looking at is post County era - apart from YK, other 6 in that line-up are a bit more that being troubled by average bowlers on bouncy & seeming wickets.

All that glitters is not gold - barring Gavaskar, that top 5 of Indian team also has glorious past at WI, NZ, SAF even Harare - when there was a small target & wicket had something for the bowlers.

Alternatively it could also be said that the same line up contains about 8 players who won series at Pakistan, England, New Zealand, West Indies and drew at South Africa and Australia in the next decade.

 

[MMHS]

Alternatively it could also be said that the same line up contains about 8 players who won series at Pakistan, England, New Zealand, West Indies and drew at South Africa and Australia in the next decade.

True - that's why you have to consider relative strength of teams over a time frame considering individual players. Drawing in AUS has a foot-note, while WI & NZ in those time frame doesn't encourage much. Only 3 of the PAK side toured IND in '87, to win a 5 Test Series against a far superior & experienced team - it doesn't work the way most here presenting to prove a close contest.

In ODI may be - in Test, absolutely NO CHANCE - here bowlers are key factor & if I align listed all 9 bowlers in order of merit considering all 5 venues - top 4 names will be from PAK - by some margin from the 5th spot, if I replace Mushi with Sohaib or Fazal it'll be top 5 - again by some big margin.

But, we can agree to disagree here as well.

 

[street cricketer]

True - that's why you have to consider relative strength of teams over a time frame considering individual players. Drawing in AUS has a foot-note, while WI & NZ in those time frame doesn't encourage much. Only 3 of the PAK side toured IND in '87, to win a 5 Test Series against a far superior & experienced team - it doesn't work the way most here presenting to prove a close contest.

In ODI may be - in Test, absolutely NO CHANCE - here bowlers are key factor & if I align listed all 9 bowlers in order of merit considering all 5 venues - top 4 names will be from PAK - by some margin from the 5th spot, if I replace Mushi with Sohaib or Fazal it'll be top 5 - again by some big margin.

But, we can agree to disagree here as well.

Agree with NZ, they were largely a soft side in the 2000s. West Indies were weak as well, but not as bad as they are now. They were good enough to win/draw against Pakistan. Pakistan still has a losing record in the West Indies since the dawn of the millennium. As for the Australian series, I'm not too sure if the over reliance of Australia on McGrath can be held against that Indian team (Warne was a non entity against India anyway). If anything, it was Australia's weakness that they became too vulnerable if McGrath missed a match. That's a bit like saying Pakistan's draw at the West Indies in 88 has a foot note because 3 of the fearsome quartet had already retired while Marshall missed a match as well (which Pakistan won).

 

[Amjid Javed]

3-0 Pakistan, draws in 1st and last tests with pakistan extra firepower in bowling leading to test wins in the middle 3 tests.

 

[Tusker]

3-0 Pakistan, draws in 1st and last tests with pakistan extra firepower in bowling leading to test wins in the middle 3 tests.

Could not win a single test in your backyard in the 1989 series with most of the big names in that list playing ...

 

[Rayyman]

All three bowlers you mentioned were better on Asian style pitches than bouncy pitches, whereas even average bowlers can trouble Pakistani batsmen on bouncy or seaming wickets, which is why I think India holds the edge in Australia and South Africa.

They stuggled against the home teams who were used to the pace and bounce, but they will most likely make it hard for India.

 

[Big Mac]

Pakistan are so far ahead that we dropped Misbah and let Imran captain to try and give India a chance. Come on, this isn't a fair contest.

 

[Thivagar]

India - Kolkata and Lahore.
Pakistan - Jo and Lords,
Perth - Draw

 

[Montrealer]

No Zaheer Abbas in Pakistan team?

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

Tough to predict. Any team could win.

 

[jeetu]

Pakistan XI would have slight edge because of superior pace attack.