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Pakistan wins the second Test against England: Was it the pitch or was it the players?

Did we win because of the pitch or players

  • The pitch

    Votes: 6 17.1%

  • The players

    Votes: 3 8.6%

  • A combination

    Votes: 22 62.9%

  • Toss

    Votes: 4 11.4%
  • Total voters
    35
DeadlyVenom

DeadlyVenom

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Finally we won and we won in style. Two big things happened

1. We got rid of two experienced players who some blamed for creating a toxic environment and replaced them with domestic performers like the spin duo and KG.
2. We finally created a pitch that had something about it

But what do you think the reason for the victory was? Did booting out Babar and Shaheen create a more positive environment, or was it merely down to the pitch?
 
It's the pitch and pitch and pitch only. If you make a green bouncy pitch and play 4 seamers then England still not going to score 200 even with Bazzball.
 
considering that we don't have quality pacers anymore, why didn't we go the spinning track in past series??
 
Babar Azam would have struggled on this pitch, so replacing him with KG who is a superior player of spin made a huge difference


Shafique needs to be dropped for Huraira and the batting becomes more solid
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Finally we won and we won in style. Two big things happened

1. We got rid of two experienced players who some blamed for creating a toxic environment and replaced them with domestic performers like the spin duo and KG.
2. We finally created a pitch that had something about it

But what do you think the reason for the victory was? Did booting out Babar and Shaheen create a more positive environment, or was it merely down to the pitch?
Click to expand...
Both.
 
Noman is pretty solid bowler he was very good in debut series when wickets were supporting him it was babar and rameez rubbish wickets preparation that hampered his progress in the following home series
 
TheSultan said:
The pitch, but there should be no taboo about it.
Click to expand...

But we must not forget Kamran Ghulam - that was a match-winning innings which allowed bowlers space to work with.

Dropping Babar Azam was the key.
 
MenInG said:
But we must not forget Kamran Ghulam - that was a match-winning innings which allowed bowlers space to work with.

Dropping Babar Azam was the key.
Click to expand...
Agreed - that was a big call, and it proves all the naysayers wrong - the ones that slit their wrists and say we won’t score 30 / 50 / 100 without certain players. Kamran in fact showed not just his runs, it’s the way he played. A smile on his face, he looked like he was enjoying batting, he rotated the strike well too. A breath of fresh air.

I want people to remember this. Whenever you say “we won’t make x without x”, it is always proved that you will be just fine. Be brave.

We proved it when people said “we won’t make 30 without Misbah” and we proved it again here without Babar.

All we need to complete the circle is to give a young WK a go and get rid of Rizwan too.
 
Both + toss. Even Chasing 150 for Pakistan would have been difficult in this, could have taken a good second innings lead though with better players of spin. Overall experienced domestic players were on fire and that made the difference.
 
Pakistan needs to learn the art of winning Test matches again.

Just like what Misbah ul Haq used to do and dominated touring teams in Tests.

He knew our strengths. He knew how to trap the visiting teams.

We just have to follow his blueprint - just copy/paste Misbah’s tactics like we have done in this Test and we can become a formidable Test team again —- provided we also bring in players who can bat well against spin and bowl good spin.

This is how India also wins home Test matches.

Death by spin.

And there’s no shame in that.

Each country prepares supporting home pitches - be it Australia, England or South Africa.

Also I’m sorry to say but Babar Azam is a pathetic player of spin. He has to improve his game.
 
Babar Azam being sent to the Himalayas to train for his comeback arc.
 
Mamoon said:
Neither.

It was me predicting that Pakistan will win the series 2-1 and all the natural forces moved that way because I will always have the last laugh.
Click to expand...
You are far too humble.

If you recall, you also mentioned inclusion of Stokes will serve to the losing cause. Your reasoning was he was ill-suited to the role.

Either you are god, or close to it. Deserve a bow.
 
Combination of both. Can never take the credit away from players. Kamran, Sajid, Noman, Agha, and Saim were all great in this test match. Congratulations everyone
 
Only because we drop our fake superstar and nauman ali is a proper spinner, he can get wickets even on flat wickets. Why he didn't play against bangladesh? That lollipop bowler abrar ahmed is just mediocre club level bowler.
 
Mamoon said:
Neither.

It was me predicting that Pakistan will win the series 2-1 and all the natural forces moved that way because I will always have the last laugh.
Click to expand...
No matter what happens in the third test, just this alone is as big a prediction you made when India got all out at 36 against Australia few years ago. Will never disrespect you again. Most importantly you say what is right and don’t care about what anyone thinks. Happy Birthday
 
Farhan The Man said:
You are far too humble.

If you recall, you also mentioned inclusion of Stokes will serve to the losing cause. Your reasoning was he was ill-suited to the role.

Either you are god, or close to it. Deserve a bow.
Click to expand...
You are too kind.

I think England need to take a decision on the future of Stokes. There is no way they can carry his corpse to Australia for the Ashes.
 
Both

1. If we're going to play on these types of pitches, we can't have Babar, Shaheen, and possibly a few other superstars they struggle on these surfaces."

2. If we prepare pitches that suit Babar, it would also give a significant advantage to the opposition, greatly reducing our chances of winning.
 
To be honest, it was the pitch.

Remember, Pakistan went into this match with 7 spinners. A captain who is sure of his strategies and tactics, wont take 7 same kind of bowlers with him and hope for one of them to work.

Had Shan gone with 2 main spinners, kept a pacer and opted for a better pacer instead of Jamal, than i would had said the players had a role in this win.

Truth be told, Sajid and Noman cant spin the ball if the pitch is not assisting them

On top of that, dropping Babar while keeping Abdullah Shafique or Saud Shakeel made no sense. Baber should had been the third priority in that pecking order. Both the batters got runs on a flat track but here they again failed. Kamran Ghulam has a history of scoring 50s and 60s, we got lucky that he got a 100 on debut and we had some score to defend.

It was the pitch and some luck that went our way, or else, we could had bottled this one aswell.
 
Mamoon said:
Neither.

It was me predicting that Pakistan will win the series 2-1 and all the natural forces moved that way because I will always have the last laugh.
Click to expand...
You were also predicted 1st test win after pope dismissed . What happened to natural forces ?? Lol
 
What this Test match showed the most was how much Noman Ali was underrated. Ever since the Australia Tour to Pakistan, I thought of Noman as one of the least skillful left arm spinners Pakistan has produced (The leg side negative line bowling by him was absolute garbage) but he has surprised me in this series.

His change of pace and manipulation of the his length was absolutely incredible in this game. By no means was this pitch a minefield, it was turning and the odd one would turn a lot but it was not turning square like some pitches we have seen in India or Sri lanka. It's good to see him able to actually use his ability as a spinner and he showed how superior he was compared to the likes of Leach in the same conditions.
 
It was the Toss which made us win simple. But clearly what Atherton and Nasir said was absolutely right. The reason we dont make turners is that we cant play spin nor pace but one has to take risks
 
Again it's Toss is the biggest factor, pakistan got best condition to bat ,just imagine england bat first then most probably will be huge margin or innings victory for england
 
These are the type of pitches commonplace in the subcontinent. I really don't understand why Pakistan goes against the norm and makes roads. Very insecure mindset. This was a good result pitch
 
100% the players

England players didn’t apply themselves to the pitch the way Pakistan did.

Pakistan spinners were a class above the English spinners on the same deck.
 
For those saying the toss - it still takes some nuance from the team/players to understand what to do when winning the toss and what the best option is to maximise value.

We've just seen our neighbours win a toss and then get out for 48.
 
Pakistan finally prepared a pitch that played to their strengths—it wasn't just a turner, but also slow and low, making shot-making extremely difficult. While Pakistan's batsmen don’t possess a wide range of shots, this kind of surface ensured that the opposition couldn’t play freely either without taking significant risks. This was evident in the dismissals of Root and Brook, where the lack of turn wasn’t the issue; rather, the low bounce caused the ball to skid under the bat. Both were trying to be aggressive on a wicket that didn’t allow consistent shot-making.

For Pakistan to succeed, they need wickets that are slow and low, where most runs come from sweeps or leg glances, and where attempting straight boundaries comes with a high level of risk. This particular pitch was also a real turner, which meant the toss played a crucial role. In the long term, against non-subcontinental sides, Pakistan should continue to prepare slow and low pitches rather than flat tracks, as the latter only benefits away teams with superior shot-making abilities.
 
Omer2002 said:
It was the Toss which made us win simple. But clearly what Atherton and Nasir said was absolutely right. The reason we dont make turners is that we cant play spin nor pace but one has to take risks
Click to expand...
No its not the toss

English are poor players of spin

Yes your right we can't play spin with babar and few others in the team at with out them we can

Our spinners are better than English on helpfully tracks

So its not only the toss
 
PitchViz ratings by innings in second Test - Multan

  • Pakistan's first innings: 5.1
  • England's first innings: 6.5
  • Pakistan's second innings: 7.9
  • England's second innings: 7.1


PitchViz gives a rating out of 10 for the difficult of a pitch. The higher the number the more difficult it is to bat.
 
Pitch, Toss and player.

Since tests happened on reused pitch, toss was critical as well.

Eng entire batting line can't play spin if pitch is turning so just have turn on pitch.
 
Rana said:
100% the players

England players didn’t apply themselves to the pitch the way Pakistan did.

Pakistan spinners were a class above the English spinners on the same deck.
Click to expand...
If it was only about players then Play same team in next matches then we will see .

Pitch played a major role as Pakistan were Pakistan first .
 
Devadwal said:
If it was only about players then Play same team in next matches then we will see .

Pitch played a major role as Pakistan were Pakistan first .
Click to expand...
The pitch suited the set of players from Pakistan more than it did England.

England batters except Duckett (first innings only) batted poorly on this track. They only wanted to sweep or reverse sweep. They were too scared to use their feet to meet the pitch of the ball. They were horrible trying to cut or drive on the wicket. They deserve to lose.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
PitchViz ratings by innings in second Test - Multan

  • Pakistan's first innings: 5.1
  • England's first innings: 6.5
  • Pakistan's second innings: 7.9
  • England's second innings: 7.1


PitchViz gives a rating out of 10 for the difficult of a pitch. The higher the number the more difficult it is to bat.
Click to expand...
How does that compare to other traditional SC pitches?

I know people are saying it was a used pitch and technically it was..but it didn't completely misbehave. Seemed to behave like a normal non road pitch to me
 
DeadlyVenom said:
How does that compare to other traditional SC pitches?

I know people are saying it was a used pitch and technically it was..but it didn't completely misbehave. Seemed to behave like a normal non road pitch to me
Click to expand...
Tough to say. Indian pitches vary a lot. Ahmedabad 2021 was tougher than this but not because it was turning more

The ball was skidding on rapidly off the surface unlike these slow Pakistani pitches.

The tough pitches in India are the ones where it turns at pace and with some uneven bounce unlike anywhere else.

But in the recent England tour of India, the ball didn't turn anywhere near as much as this .

Maybe BD pitches are more like this Multan deck.
 
Major said:
To be honest, it was the pitch.

Remember, Pakistan went into this match with 7 spinners. A captain who is sure of his strategies and tactics, wont take 7 same kind of bowlers with him and hope for one of them to work.

Had Shan gone with 2 main spinners, kept a pacer and opted for a better pacer instead of Jamal, than i would had said the players had a role in this win.

Truth be told, Sajid and Noman cant spin the ball if the pitch is not assisting them

On top of that, dropping Babar while keeping Abdullah Shafique or Saud Shakeel made no sense. Baber should had been the third priority in that pecking order. Both the batters got runs on a flat track but here they again failed. Kamran Ghulam has a history of scoring 50s and 60s, we got lucky that he got a 100 on debut and we had some score to defend.

It was the pitch and some luck that went our way, or else, we could had bottled this one aswell.
Click to expand...
Yes Babar should have been priority. Not fc players who've been grinding It for decades.
 
Still need to boot out the trio of Shan, Shafique and Shakeel.... Bring in new players,they can't be any worse than these three.. Bring in another spinner in place of zahid... And keep preparing spinning track like this one...
The only major factor Pakistan won is the pitch...These are the same useless players who were getting thrashed since three years...
 
Major said:
To be honest, it was the pitch.

Remember, Pakistan went into this match with 7 spinners. A captain who is sure of his strategies and tactics, wont take 7 same kind of bowlers with him and hope for one of them to work.

Had Shan gone with 2 main spinners, kept a pacer and opted for a better pacer instead of Jamal, than i would had said the players had a role in this win.

Truth be told, Sajid and Noman cant spin the ball if the pitch is not assisting them

On top of that, dropping Babar while keeping Abdullah Shafique or Saud Shakeel made no sense. Baber should had been the third priority in that pecking order. Both the batters got runs on a flat track but here they again failed. Kamran Ghulam has a history of scoring 50s and 60s, we got lucky that he got a 100 on debut and we had some score to defend.

It was the pitch and some luck that went our way, or else, we could had bottled this one aswell.
Click to expand...
I've seen your posts on Ghulam and you are wrong. You keep suggesting he has a problem with conversion and that's not true. You probably remember something anecdotal and keep holding on to it.

Lets bring some facts here.(fc stats)

1. Kamran Ghulam- 17 100s, 20 50s- conversion rate- 45.9%

2. Babar Azam- 12 100s 38 50s- conversion rate- 24%

3. God of conversion younis Khan- 56 100s 64 50s- conversion rate- 46.6%

So there you have it. The evidence doesn't support your point that KG has a conversion problem, infact he's quite good at it.

Babar Azam is your man though. He is the one with huge problems converting his 50s to 100s.
 
It is because the non performing dosti yaari group got dismantled. Because the lab manufactured fake King got the boot.
Rambo Raja must be in a inconsolable state. :inti
 
Rana said:
The pitch suited the set of players from Pakistan more than it did England.

England batters except Duckett (first innings only) batted poorly on this track. They only wanted to sweep or reverse sweep. They were too scared to use their feet to meet the pitch of the ball. They were horrible trying to cut or drive on the wicket. They deserve to lose.
Click to expand...
Nay, Batting first gave pakistan that extra cushion and extra 100+ runs if not why 3rd innings pakistan is struggling to reach 200?? , if pakistan batted second they also would reached 200+ only , this is a reused pitch all repair and adjustment made pitch to hold for 1 day then it started to crumble.
 
HARKS said:
Nay, Batting first gave pakistan that extra cushion and extra 100+ runs if not why 3rd innings pakistan is struggling to reach 200?? , if pakistan batted second they also would reached 200+ only , this is a reused pitch all repair and adjustment made pitch to hold for 1 day then it started to crumble.
Click to expand...
England were 210-2 as well. They were cruising until Root was removed. Absolutely smashing Pakistan. After that wicket, they completely lost the plot. They were in a very good position to bat once and put a lead of 150+

It has nothing to do with the toss. And they should have been switched on in the first innings, not reviewing Rizwan’s caught behind with the score at 170-4 was a big big blunder. Pakistan were on the ropes at the time and could have folded for 220
 
Marooned said:
I've seen your posts on Ghulam and you are wrong. You keep suggesting he has a problem with conversion and that's not true. You probably remember something anecdotal and keep holding on to it.

Lets bring some facts here.(fc stats)

1. Kamran Ghulam- 17 100s, 20 50s- conversion rate- 45.9%

2. Babar Azam- 12 100s 38 50s- conversion rate- 24%

3. God of conversion younis Khan- 56 100s 64 50s- conversion rate- 46.6%

So there you have it. The evidence doesn't support your point that KG has a conversion problem, infact he's quite good at it.

Babar Azam is your man though. He is the one with huge problems converting his 50s to 100s.
Click to expand...
Bro, i have nothing against Kamran.

I dont care what Younis or Babar does.Plz for gods sake dont even compare Babar with 10k runs with a debutant.

Thing is, I have see Kamran Ghulams Pakistan A matches. His FC stats are only relevant till he makes it to Pakistan A, after which his Pakistan A stats become more relevant when selecting him for Pakistan national team. There were few A series where he failed to convert those 50s and 60s to bigger scores. My concern is that if he fails to do that with Pakistan A than he will surely fail at national level. This is exactly what happened with Asad Shafiq.

Shafiq also used to score these 50s and 60s with pakistan a, and at national level he failed to convert those into big scores.

Basically, if you are scoring 100 in Pakistan A, you will more like score 50s or 60 in Pakistani national team
If you are scoring 50 or 60s for Pakistan A, than you will score 20s and 30s for Pakistan national team.

As you go one level up the difficulty level increases.

My issue with Kamran is not his conversion rate at national level. If kamran scores 50 runs or 60s at national level, i would be happy with him. Thing is, if he is not able to score big in the easier level (Pakistan A), than how can he outperform at Pakistan National level?

I saw the same exact thing happen with Asad Shafiq and Sohaib Maqsood.

Anyways, i would love to get proven wrong by Kamran. He has worked hard and each time he failed he fixed his batting. Been following him since Pakistan u19 days. But i still have my doubts about him.

ANd plz, this has nothing to do with him replacing Babar Azam. Babar will be back either way.

If Kamran is consisstent, than i hope to see him place of Saud Shakeel atleast. But I have my doubts on Kamran still.
 
Its the lack of toxicity in the locker room.

I have seem many seeming intractable situations resolve themselves once the egomaniacs are removed from the situation
 
Muhammad Saad said:
It's the pitch and pitch and pitch only. If you make a green bouncy pitch and play 4 seamers then England still not going to score 200 even with Bazzball.
Click to expand...
What on earth is Bazzball, can someone explain it to this old timer, keep on hearing this and have no clue what it is?
 
It was simply the removal of Shaheen and Babar that made Pakistan win.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either being kind or delusional.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
It was simply the removal of Shaheen and Babar that made Pakistan win.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either being kind or delusional.
Click to expand...
100% this. Babar would have been out for a 20 and pakistan would have been bundled up for 200 and Shaheen would have given England a 150 extra.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
It was simply the removal of Shaheen and Babar that made Pakistan win.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either being kind or delusional.
Click to expand...
Yes. It had nothing to do with the fact that Pakistan prepared a pitch that made it difficult for England to score runs.

Pakistan would demolish England on flat decks if they play the same lineup. In fact, Pakistan will win the WTC as long as they keep Babar and Shaheen out of the team.

Pakistan’s ability to win matches entirely depends on keeping Babar and Shaheen out and has absolutely nothing to do with the pitch.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
It was simply the removal of Shaheen and Babar that made Pakistan win.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either being kind or delusional.
Click to expand...
So if pindi pitch is turning out to be flat than Pakistan should win the next test with same playing eleven . right?

Pitch and toss both played more than 50 % part in pakistan win.
 
Mamoon said:
Yes. It had nothing to do with the fact that Pakistan prepared a pitch that made it difficult for England to score runs.

Pakistan would demolish England on flat decks if they play the same lineup. In fact, Pakistan will win the WTC as long as they keep Babar and Shaheen out of the team.

Pakistan’s ability to win matches entirely depends on keeping Babar and Shaheen out and has absolutely nothing to do with the pitch.
Click to expand...
Several posters are saying drop Saud Shakeel and Abdullah Shafique as well.
What are your thoughts?

So far:
Abdullah, 39 average in 21 games.
Saud, 53 average in 14 games.
 
Major said:
Thing is, I have see Kamran Ghulams Pakistan A matches. His FC stats are only relevant till he makes it to Pakistan A, after which his Pakistan A stats become more relevant when selecting him for Pakistan national team.
Click to expand...
Again, this is just anecdote and hearsay.

So where are these A team stats that you speak of?

You seem to have a perception but it's clearly not supported by anything beyond "I've seen" ..."I remember " basically "trust me bro"

You are just being stubborn for the sake of it.

I'm not attacking you or suggesting you have something against him. I'm just saying your argument has no legs and is basically fiction. I wouldn't have bothered to point this out either but I've seen you repeat this narrative so many times that it needed adressing especially because it's about a player that I've followed closely past few years.
 
And to think the pitch was used for this game by accident, not design.
 
It was both and it suited Pakistan's strength and better help exploit England's weaknesses. Producing a flat deck like Pakistan did in the past did nothing to help them but it served England well because they can play their shots without abandon and it's simply something Pakistan cannot replicate. It's why after 3-0 white wash last time, England wanted flat pace decks in their own conditions in the Ashes series because it suited their strengths.

Just no more flat decks. We've seen in Pindi Pakistan produce some juicy tracks for pacers like they did vs SL & Bangladesh and it's that level of consistency they need to figure out for each ground and continue that consistency. Keep Multan as a rank turner, Pindi as a pacer friendly conditions and try to get Karachi/Lahore into more Multan type pitches. It will help Pakistan build future FTP's and depending on opposition, you can play it at a ground that suits your conditions but the key is consistency where pitches and playing conditions are what your players know to expect. You keep that consistency and that is how you can build a strong team at home. It's how Misbah did so good in UAE, he figured out the conditions, built the team accordingly and simply kept that game plan to consistently dominate.
 
Marooned said:
Again, this is just anecdote and hearsay.

So where are these A team stats that you speak of?

You seem to have a perception but it's clearly not supported by anything beyond "I've seen" ..."I remember " basically "trust me bro"

You are just being stubborn for the sake of it.

I'm not attacking you or suggesting you have something against him. I'm just saying your argument has no legs and is basically fiction. I wouldn't have bothered to point this out either but I've seen you repeat this narrative so many times that it needed adressing especially because it's about a player that I've followed closely past few years.
Click to expand...
what do you mean heresay? I have followed those matches that he played for Pakistan A. Plus my basis is on two things. What he has done with Pakistan A, and the way the careers of Asad Shafiq, Umar Amin, Umar Akmal and Sohaib Maqsood turned out to be.

Knowing the trend of these players, i dont expect Kamran to do much either.

The mentioned players also had a habit of scoring less with pakistan A and when they came to the natinal team the scores were even lwoer.

Bro you dont have to agree with me. We can just agree to disagree.

But i really do hope that Kamran proves me wrong, and is actually a player that is here to stay for the next 5 years. But, when i look back and see that since 2011 till 2020 only Azhar Ali was able to keep his spot in the test team while the others were inconsistent (even Azhar was no champion either), than the trend analysis doesnt give me any hope.

I stopped going crazy after players when Sohaib Maqsood and Haris Sohail turned out to be failiures.
 
Farabi said:
Several posters are saying drop Saud Shakeel and Abdullah Shafique as well.
What are your thoughts?

So far:
Abdullah, 39 average in 21 games.
Saud, 53 average in 14 games.
Click to expand...
Dropping Saud is madness. He is a quality Test batsman who should average around 45-50 in his career. Pakistan doesn’t have the luxury of discarding prolific batsmen like him because of some made up filter like soft runs etc. it doesn’t mean anything.

Abdullah has done OK. Not great but not terrible. He has earned a few more Tests but he should not be made to feel that he is indispensable.
 
Devadwal said:
So if pindi pitch is turning out to be flat than Pakistan should win the next test with same playing eleven . right?

Pitch and toss both played more than 50 % part in pakistan win.
Click to expand...
When margin is 150 runs in a relatively low scoring game you can't say toss played much of a role
 
Everything played a role. It's not always a single factor contributing to the win. I don't think Pakistan played exceptionally well. It was more of England facing good quality spin assisted by the pitch and not applying. Also England lacked here as they now believe they can be agressive and take the game on by that strategy. The shot of Stokes is an example of this. He was playing well and could have threatened with some assistance from other end.

I also agree that Babar and Shaheen had been poor for long time and dropping them was good. Maybe even drop Abdullah and try anyone else. I don't agree that dropping Rizwan is needed as some are pointing out as he continues to be a good keeper-bat. However it could be worth having Agha come before Rizwan given his current form.

Also the pacers are not world class so Pakistan should stop even thinking about preparing fast tracks. Going with 4 pacers was absolutely trash strategy. Any other team is capable of getting out their batters on lower scores.
 
None of the above

It was the removal of Babar and Shaheen that made the difference.

Mindset is a powerful force.
 
I think credit goes to the industrial fans, hopefully they have boarded the train to Rawalpindi
 
Pakistan played on the same pitch and won. It was using home series advantage which we seem to have forgot how to do. On top of that, the team had 6 of the top domestic performers in the lineup. Value FC cricket, these guys know what they’re doing. Noman has toiled in domestics working on his craft, and you can see what experience does.
 
Suleiman said:
Babar Azam being sent to the Himalayas to train for his comeback arc.
Click to expand...

He will rise from the Lazarus Pit, cometh Babar Al Ghul; this version will mean business.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Just to make sure this is a winning strategy irrespective of toss, Pakistan should make the same sorta pitch and choose to bowl first this time.
 
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