Pakistani cricketers fixing again! - A reflection of society?

[Yossarian]

Generation after generation, Pakistan cricket cannot seem to shed the curse of fixing. From Salim & co, to the Trio, to now Sharjeel, the pattern is the same - no matter what the penalty imposed, neither life bans (Salim Malik), nor prison sentences (the Trio) appear to make any difference whatsoever.

It makes one wonder whether fixing in cricket can ever be eradicated considering that bribery and corruption within Pakistani society has reached such proportions that it's seen as the norm.

Furthermore, contrary to opinion, I don't believe this has anything to do with education, or the lack of it. Neither Salim Malik nor Salman Butt were uneducated.

Think about it. In society at large, there's not much point in bribing those at the bottom of society, since there's not much that they could offer in return. Similarly, they don't have the financial means to indulge in any meaningful acts of bribery and corruption.

Bribery and corruption are the domain of the wealthy middle and upper classes. Not only do they have the means, but they also have more to gain by giving/taking bribes and indulging in corrupt practices.

Similarly, bribery in cricket is the the domain of those at the top of the cricket pyramid. There's not much to gain by bribing some local club player playing in a local league club match. Consider that in contrast to the many $millions that could be made by getting a top international player to fix just a few deliveries in a big, internationally televised match.

Sad to say, but unless those at the top of Pakistani society, ie the wealthy and middle/professional classes, change their ways, then corruption in cricket as well as in Pakistani society at large will never be eradicated.

But why would the wealthy, middle, professional classes change their ways when they are the main beneficiaries of the current prevailing endemic corruption in Pakistan?

That's why corruption in cricket will never be too far away in a country like Pakistan.

 

[Rayyman]

Guys like Misbah, Azhar, Shafiq and Imad aren't corrupt.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Yes, Misbah is not a reflection of Pakistanis, only some fixers are.

 

[Pakistanian]

Let's not jump the gun too soon, you're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. We're nobody to indict anybody.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's a valid question but I am now wondering which society we are talking about. There was a thread raised where it was suggested that religious extremism had become the project of Pakistan's society, so how do we align this with bribery and corruption being a blight raised by the same society?

It seems Pakistan has the worst of both worlds according to our esteemed posters.

 

[enkidu_]

Yes. Look at our politicians, the more they become criminals, the more votes they get. Pakistan is not interested in progress or socialism. Liberty is heavier for them than chains, and dignity is perhaps too cheap of a commodity.

 

[Yossarian]

Yes, Misbah is not a reflection of Pakistanis, only some fixers are.

Guys like Misbah, Azhar, Shafiq and Imad aren't corrupt.

Not on the cricket field perhaps. But can you be a 100% sure as regards their's and their families business, financial or tax dealings? Besides, it doesn't require every single member of a group to be corrupt in order for that group to be considered rife with corruption.

 

[Yossarian]

Let's not jump the gun too soon, you're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. We're nobody to indict anybody.

So you think that the perception of Pakistan being riddled with corruption is a false perception?

 

[Yossarian]

It's a valid question but I am now wondering which society we are talking about. There was a thread raised where it was suggested that religious extremism had become the project of Pakistan's society, so how do we align this with bribery and corruption being a blight raised by the same society?

It seems Pakistan has the worst of both worlds according to our esteemed posters.

The society where the maulvis stand in the mosques and give sermons on the virtues of honesty and integrity, but as soon as a few notes are waved in their face it all goes out of the window. A society where the maulvis preach that Islam means peace, demands honesty and integrity, advocates the welfare of the poor and needy, encourages fairness and equality, and yet the same maulvis shout slogans and raise demonstrations in support of murderers, the same maulvis who praise the killing of innocents, even innocent fellow citizens, if they happen to follow a slightly different version of the same faith as themselves.

And the same society where where vast sections of it lap up all of the above and follow like lemmings.

 

[Zahid87]

Pakistani society has a lot of problems, I grant you, and I am a major critic of them.

But fixing is not limited to Pakistan. Greed is a human trait.

Players from all countries have indulged in fixing at some level. I know this is something which I can't substantiate, but having spoken to people who have more knowledge in these matters, its something which I now believe to the case.

It just so happens that Pakistani players have been caught, and that too recently.

 

[Yossarian]

Pakistani society has a lot of problems, I grant you, and I am a major critic of them.

But fixing is not limited to Pakistan. Greed is a human trait.

Players from all countries have indulged in fixing at some level. I know this is something which I can't substantiate, but having spoken to people who have more knowledge in these matters, its something which I now believe to the case.

It just so happens that Pakistani players have been caught, and that too recently.

So just because others also fix justifies Pakistanis fixing, and Pakistan as a society being riddled with corruption? Who cares why others fix. The thread is discussing why Pakistani cricketers fix and why it would be difficult to eradicate in a society such as Pakistan.

 

[Zahid87]

So just because others also fix justifies Pakistanis fixing, and Pakistan as a society being riddled with corruption? Who cares why others fix. The thread is discussing why Pakistani cricketers fix and why it would be difficult to eradicate in a society such as Pakistan.

Not justifying the Pakistani players fixing at all. Just pointing out that fixing is not an exclusively Pakistani epidemic, and therefore its not a case of simply saying that its a reflection of society.

There is a principal reason as to why any player will fix, which is greed. A chance to make a great sum of money by doing no extra work, and knowing you will be able to get away with it. This holds true for Pakistan, and other countries as well.

The fact that so many Pakistanis have been caught may act as a slight deterrent - but until the people near the top of the nexus get caught, and by that not just those on the betting end, but officials who have been corrupted and encourage fixing for their own means, nothing much will change.

 

[Yossarian]

Not justifying the Pakistani players fixing at all. Just pointing out that fixing is not an exclusively Pakistani epidemic, and therefore its not a case of simply saying that its a reflection of society.

There is a principal reason as to why any player will fix, which is greed. A chance to make a great sum of money by doing no extra work, and knowing you will be able to get away with it. This holds true for Pakistan, and other countries as well.

The fact that so many Pakistanis have been caught may act as a slight deterrent - but until the people near the top of the nexus get caught, and by that not just those on the betting end, but officials who have been corrupted and encourage fixing for their own means, nothing much will change.

Nothing will change until the culture of the country changes. A child growing up in a wealthy middle class family in Pakistan, seeing their adult family members and their friends all benefitting from corrupt practices, will not see corruption as being wrong, they will grow up regarding it as being normal, almost as their birth right to get things done to their benefit, and knowing that even if they were caught, simply indulging in more corruption, bribing the right people, means that no action will be taken against them.

And then if some go on to become top cricketers (Salman Butt, Salim Malik), they are prone to revert to the habits that that they've grown up with, especially if/when there are financial inducements to do so, and very little chance of getting caught (or so they believe).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Nothing will change until the culture of the country changes. A child growing up in a wealthy middle class family in Pakistan, seeing their adult family members and their friends all benefitting from corrupt practices, will not see corruption as being wrong, they will grow up regarding it as being normal, almost as their birth right to get things done to their benefit, and knowing that even if they were caught, simply indulging in more corruption, bribing the right people, means that no action will be taken against them.

And then if some go on to become top cricketers (Salman Butt, Salim Malik), they are prone to revert to the habits that that they've grown up with, especially if/when there are financial inducements to do so, and very little chance of getting caught (or so they believe).

Culture doesn't change by itself, this is a point I have made repeatedly again and again on these forums having seen both sides of the coin as I'm sure you have in your travels around the world. Why do you think following a natural disaster like a hurricane, law and order breaks down, even in a modern first world nation like the USA? Why do we have investigative tax law bodies and strict enforcement in the UK, and also super smart accountants who will sniff out loopholes for mega rich clients to save paying those same taxes?

It's just a matter of scale. Who wouldn't want more money if they could find some way of getting it? Show me a country where there are no jails or police and I'll show you a culture where people are honest as pure white snow.

Pakistan, like a lot of third world countries has poor systems in place and it's too easy to get round the law. Fix that and you fix the culture. How you fix it when the government isn't accountable is another question.

 

[Yossarian]

Culture doesn't change by itself, this is a point I have made repeatedly again and again on these forums having seen both sides of the coin as I'm sure you have in your travels around the world. Why do you think following a natural disaster like a hurricane, law and order breaks down, even in a modern first world nation like the USA? Why do we have investigative tax law bodies and strict enforcement in the UK, and also super smart accountants who will sniff out loopholes for mega rich clients to save paying those same taxes?

It's just a matter of scale. Who wouldn't want more money if they could find some way of getting it? Show me a country where there are no jails or police and I'll show you a culture where people are honest as pure white snow.

Pakistan, like a lot of third world countries has poor systems in place and it's too easy to get round the law. Fix that and you fix the culture. How you fix it when the government isn't accountable is another question.

True. What surprises me is when some desis, especially from the older generations, seem to be of the opinion that non-desis aren't family centric as themselves. From my observations, if anything it's quite the opposite. In my opinion, desis are far more likely to 'stab family members in the back' (in terms of property, financial matters, family matters ..etc) as compared with non-desis. But the biggest difference of all is in the fact that desis make a far bigger show of their religious piousness, and hence their hypocricy is far more starkly visible when their actions contradict what they preach.

 

[Yossarian]

^^ to add:
For example, the way the cricketers are always showing their piousness by invoking the name of Allah, when their actions convey the exact opposite.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

True. What surprises me is when some desis, especially from the older generations, seem to be of the opinion that non-desis aren't family centric as themselves. From my observations, if anything it's quite the opposite. In my opinion, desis are far more likely to 'stab family members in the back' (in terms of property, financial matters, family matters ..etc) as compared with non-desis. But the biggest difference of all is in the fact that desis make a far bigger show of their religious piousness, and hence their hypocricy is far more starkly visible when their actions contradict what they preach.

This is because in a country where religion is seen as a badge of honour, it also doubles as a handy cover if you do really want to play the system. Then also, because there is a fusion of religious practices in Pakistan ranging from ultra orthodox Wahabis/Shias to the superstitious horoscope stuff that probably has origins in Hinduism then really anything goes.

In any case, the law should be the law and it needs to be enforced on everyone, whether you wear a burka or a cross. Corruption doesn't have a religion, and it could be argued, neither should the law.

 

[Yossarian]

This is because in a country where religion is seen as a badge of honour, it also doubles as a handy cover if you do really want to play the system. Then also, because there is a fusion of religious practices in Pakistan ranging from ultra orthodox Wahabis/Shias to the superstitious horoscope stuff that probably has origins in Hinduism then really anything goes.

In any case, the law should be the law and it needs to be enforced on everyone, whether you wear a burka or a cross. Corruption doesn't have a religion, and it could be argued, neither should the law.

Desis publicly proclaiming their religious piousness has become the equivalent of store assistants in the U.S.A. telling every departing customer, even those who have been irate with them and are leaving dissatisfied, to "Have a nice day!"

 

[TahirFan]

Match fixing is also rife in South Africa. Hansie, Bodi and a host of other players. Religion was a way of life for Hansie and Bodi. Bodi was referred to as '5 times namazi'.. Namazi is a termed by South African Muslims who involved in regular prayers

 

[PakLFC]

Cricket and Politics in Pakistan go hand in hand. The corrupt attitude of politicians is contagious. With most of our players being uneducated they will always be vulnerable to selling their loyalties for some money. They see it as easy money in particular if they don't have a long career at international level.

 

[Syed1]

Pakistan has plenty of good people too. The problem is that the corrupt have been ruling us ever since Liaqat Ali Khan was assassinated. We have not had ONE single ruler who got the job on merit and was unanimously accepted as a man of character and pristine caliber.


Why is it that these same Pakistanis when put into a system of merit offered in the West quickly rise to the top?

 

[Yossarian]

Cricket and Politics in Pakistan go hand in hand. The corrupt attitude of politicians is contagious. With most of our players being uneducated they will always be vulnerable to selling their loyalties for some money. They see it as easy money in particular if they don't have a long career at international level.

Being uneducated has nothing to do with it. In fact quite the opposite. Just look at Salman Butt and Salim Malik. They were not uneducated. And they were the national captains at the time.

As the OP says:

Think about it. In society at large, there's not much point in bribing those at the bottom of society, since there's not much that they could offer in return. Similarly, they don't have the financial means to indulge in any meaningful acts of bribery and corruption.

Bribery and corruption are the domain of the wealthy middle and upper classes. Not only do they have the means, but they also have more to gain by giving/taking bribes and indulging in corrupt practices.

Similarly, bribery in cricket is the the domain of those at the top of the cricket pyramid. There's not much to gain by bribing some local club player playing in a local league club match. Consider that in contrast to the many $millions that could be made by getting a top international player to fix just a few deliveries in a big, internationally televised match.
.

 

[Black Zero]

Correct observation. I also have an observation and it is this: you and DW44 are the true reflection of Pakistanis alhamdulillah.

in this case, I would say that reflection would be pretty blurry.

 

[PakLFC]

Being uneducated has nothing to do with it. In fact quite the opposite. Just look at Salman Butt and Salim Malik. They were not uneducated. And they were the national captains at the time.

As the OP says:

Uneducated players normally come from poorer families so are more vulnerable to selling out. This is not to suggest that those from supposed wealthier families won't be the same.

 

[Yossarian]

Uneducated players normally come from poorer families so are more vulnerable to selling out. This is not to suggest that those from supposed wealthier families won't be the same.

I'm glad you agree with the point I'm making and the whole gist of the thread title and the OP.

 

[last_knight]

Generation after generation, Pakistan cricket cannot seem to shed the curse of fixing. From Salim & co, to the Trio, to now Sharjeel, the pattern is the same - no matter what the penalty imposed, neither life bans (Salim Malik), nor prison sentences (the Trio) appear to make any difference whatsoever.

It makes one wonder whether fixing in cricket can ever be eradicated considering that bribery and corruption within Pakistani society has reached such proportions that it's seen as the norm.

Furthermore, contrary to opinion, I don't believe this has anything to do with education, or the lack of it. Neither Salim Malik nor Salman Butt were uneducated.

Think about it. In society at large, there's not much point in bribing those at the bottom of society, since there's not much that they could offer in return. Similarly, they don't have the financial means to indulge in any meaningful acts of bribery and corruption.

Bribery and corruption are the domain of the wealthy middle and upper classes. Not only do they have the means, but they also have more to gain by giving/taking bribes and indulging in corrupt practices.

Similarly, bribery in cricket is the the domain of those at the top of the cricket pyramid. There's not much to gain by bribing some local club player playing in a local league club match. Consider that in contrast to the many $millions that could be made by getting a top international player to fix just a few deliveries in a big, internationally televised match.

Sad to say, but unless those at the top of Pakistani society, ie the wealthy and middle/professional classes, change their ways, then corruption in cricket as well as in Pakistani society at large will never be eradicated.

But why would the wealthy, middle, professional classes change their ways when they are the main beneficiaries of the current prevailing endemic corruption in Pakistan?

That's why corruption in cricket will never be too far away in a country like Pakistan.

Fixing doesn't happen in a flash. International cricketers get frequent exposures to anti corruption stuff and it's almost impossible if we expect that fixing happens as a solo event.

This is a process of entrapment. Fixers befriend cricketers through an 'Asset' and then indulge you in some non-accountable thrillers that are not in Red Zone by law but still not-graceful. Fixers Mafia then gets you, through deception, into some Non-Cricket corruptions and reward you some handsome gifts and keep collecting blackmailing stuff against you. This takes alot of time.

Actual Match-Spot Fixing becomes much much later, after Mafia has completed 'Entrapment'. At a point When you cant deny.So its not a rush of blood thing. More than reflecting the society, it reflects the Mafia Network.

Every cricketer knows the calculation of Reward with fixing and without fixing and relevant risks. Everyone knows the potential financial gain over a span of career is many folds greater than what it could be with Fixing rewards yet players indulge into fixing. It's not about ther Stupidity or greed, it's not about their societies, religions or education. Mostly, almost always, it's about ENTRAPMENT, more or less in the way I described above and the list of such players includes names from DIFFERENT countries, Religions and Academic/Socio-Economic Status.

 

[PakLFC]

I'm glad you agree with the point I'm making and the whole gist of the thread title and the OP.

My main point is that poor and uneducated players are easy to trap. It is an easy point to understand that you can not deny.

 

[Napa]

The society where the maulvis stand in the mosques and give sermons on the virtues of honesty and integrity, but as soon as a few notes are waved in their face it all goes out of the window.

There is an inverse relationship between the intensity of religion in the public space and honesty in the public space. This is an empirical observation. If anyone disagrees with this they should provide counter examples from the real world.

 

[imrankhannsu]

First ask yourself, do these cheating idiots reflect how you and your family are?

 

[Pure Evil]

I am sure the OP wont be happy if we say young British Muslims joining ISIS is a reflection of British Muslim society. But then he wont mind generalizing Pakistani society.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I personally wouldn't use fixing in cricket as a reflection of Pakistani society. Although corruption is rife, selling out your country when you already earning good money isn't something which a lot of people would indulge in, it's foolish to say the least.

 

[srh]

OP keeps talking about corruption in wealthy upper and upper-middle classes but corruption is rife in lower-middle and lower classes as well in Pakistan.

 

[troodon]

OP keeps talking about corruption in wealthy upper and upper-middle classes but corruption is rife in lower-middle and lower classes as well in Pakistan.

Rich or Poor, Corruption does not know class/caste differences. Only the amount that changes hands varies.

 

[confused_amoeba]

I think it is a reflection of our society. Their is a different set of rules for the privileged class in our country where corruption is rampant. We simply do not have any law and order. Jut look at the current Panamagate scandal. Why would we expect cricketers to be any different from the rest of the population. I was also not in favor of Mohammed Amir coming back into the team. Examples like these only makes other players less cautious. In short, Pakistan cricket will never be able to cleanse itself unless we cleanse the culture of the whole country.

 

[Yossarian]

OP keeps talking about corruption in wealthy upper and upper-middle classes but corruption is rife in lower-middle and lower classes as well in Pakistan.

You either missed, or perhaps didn't understand, the followed section of the OP

Think about it. In society at large, there's not much point in bribing those at the bottom of society, since there's not much that they could offer in return. Similarly, they don't have the financial means to indulge in any meaningful acts of bribery and corruption.

Bribery and corruption are the domain of the wealthy middle and upper classes. Not only do they have the means, but they also have more to gain by giving/taking bribes and indulging in corrupt practices.

 

[Yossarian]

I think it is a reflection of our society. Their is a different set of rules for the privileged class in our country where corruption is rampant. We simply do not have any law and order. Jut look at the current Panamagate scandal. Why would we expect cricketers to be any different from the rest of the population. I was also not in favor of Mohammed Amir coming back into the team. Examples like these only makes other players less cautious. In short, Pakistan cricket will never be able to cleanse itself unless we cleanse the culture of the whole country.

Your user name may be 'confused', but your thinking is crystal clear!

 

[Yossarian]

I am sure the OP wont be happy if we say young British Muslims joining ISIS is a reflection of British Muslim society. But then he wont mind generalizing Pakistani society.

Well it is actually the case, to some extent anyway. Otherwise why would someone born and bred in the UK go and join something like ISIS. It's the maulvis in the mosques, and the parents trying to recreate Pakistan in the areas of the UK where they live, that leaves these imbecilles prone to being brainwashed by the likes of ISIS.

As far as generalising Pakistani society as being rife with corruption is concerned, Pakistanis living in Pakistan do that far more than Pakistanis living outside Pakistan. They obviously have more knowledge of ground realities.

 

[Yossarian]

First ask yourself, do these cheating idiots reflect how you and your family are?

I don't live in Pakistan. I live in a beautiful little village, where everyone knows everyone and the people are friendly, on the outskirts of a small town in a very pleasant, crime free part of England. And the village club cricketers would rather die first than be accused of dodgy practices on the cricket field.

 

[Madplayer]

Your user name may be 'confused', but your thinking is crystal clear!

Because he agrees with you?

On a serious note every generalization is wrong (is that a generalization?). I think most people just want to get the maximum benefits while staying within the legal limits but when some of them take that one extra leap and cross over the fence and still get away with it, the others want to join in. If somebody is getting an unfair advantage and getting away with it, others would see it fair to emulate him. once you start its hard to stop. It's still wrong mind you.

 

[Yossarian]

Because he agrees with you?

Errr.....yes!

On a serious note every generalization is wrong (is that a generalization?). I think most people just want to get the maximum benefits while staying within the legal limits but when some of them take that one extra leap and cross over the fence and still get away with it, the others want to join in. If somebody is getting an unfair advantage and getting away with it, others would see it fair to emulate him. once you start its hard to stop. It's still wrong mind you.

A friend (as it happens, a Saudi friend) once said the following:

If after doing 'wrong', you feel bad about doing that 'wrong', feel ashamed about it, then (hopefully) you'll feel ashamed again the next time you're thinking about and/or doing the same 'wrong'. And if that feeling of shame continues, then at some point (hopefully) it will get you to change your ways, and stop you from doing the same 'wrong'.

Conversely, if after doing 'wrong', you think you've 'won' and start bragging to your friends as to how you were so clever in getting what you wanted by evading the rules, not getting caught, etc, then next time, you'll need to do a bigger 'wrong' in order to maintain those bragging rights. And thus you'll never stop. Exactly like drug addition where you need a bigger and bigger dose to get the same high.

When it comes to bribery and corruption, vast sections of Pakistan's professional, wealthy and middle classes fall in the latter, and not former, of the above categories.

 

[Pakpak]

Errr.....yes!

A friend (as it happens, a Saudi friend) once said the following:

If after doing 'wrong', you feel bad about doing that 'wrong', feel ashamed about it, then (hopefully) you'll feel ashamed again the next time you're thinking about and/or doing the same 'wrong'. And if that feeling of shame continues, then at some point (hopefully) it will get you to change your ways, and stop you from doing the same 'wrong'.

Conversely, if after doing 'wrong', you think you've 'won' and start bragging to your friends as to how you were so clever in getting what you wanted by evading the rules, not getting caught, etc, then next time, you'll need to do a bigger 'wrong' in order to maintain those bragging rights. And thus you'll never stop. Exactly like drug addition where you need a bigger and bigger dose to get the same high.

When it comes to bribery and corruption, vast sections of Pakistan's professional, wealthy and middle classes fall in the latter, and not former, of the above categories.

Look at this forum, people will bash sportsmen for cheating and fixing yet support PMLN and PPP (and no Mamoon, its not just you, a couple more examples here). Then you have people who will still vote for said parties even after admitting they're corrupt.

Our society supports and always has supported corruption and cheating. Just the way it is.

 

[Yossarian]

Look at this forum, people will bash sportsmen for cheating and fixing yet support PMLN and PPP (and no Mamoon, its not just you, a couple more examples here). Then you have people who will still vote for said parties even after admitting they're corrupt.

Our society supports and always has supported corruption and cheating. Just the way it is.

And that's why it will never be rooted out, both in cricket and society at large, since, as per the OP, cricketers are simply the reflection of the wider society.

For it to be rooted out, those who benefit from it (the receivers of bribes, as well as the givers) first have to admit that it's wrong, have to feel ashamed about it every time they involve themselves in corrupt practices.

Furthermore, since that's not likely to occur due to benefiting from corruption, there is no incentive from them to stop. And also since the professional, wealthy and middle classes, between them, control all the power, they will ensure that they will never be caught, and if caught, they will never be punished.

Hence, not only is there no incentive for them to stop, there is also no deterrence that will make the professional, wealthy and middle classes fear the consequences.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's nothing to do with society, it's about law enforcement. Where the law is rigorously enforced society has to fall in line whether it likes it or not. Try removing laws and jails from the US or the UK and let's see how long society remains honest and corruption free.

 

[Madplayer]

Errr.....yes!

A friend (as it happens, a Saudi friend) once said the following:

If after doing 'wrong', you feel bad about doing that 'wrong', feel ashamed about it, then (hopefully) you'll feel ashamed again the next time you're thinking about and/or doing the same 'wrong'. And if that feeling of shame continues, then at some point (hopefully) it will get you to change your ways, and stop you from doing the same 'wrong'.

Conversely, if after doing 'wrong', you think you've 'won' and start bragging to your friends as to how you were so clever in getting what you wanted by evading the rules, not getting caught, etc, then next time, you'll need to do a bigger 'wrong' in order to maintain those bragging rights. And thus you'll never stop. Exactly like drug addition where you need a bigger and bigger dose to get the same high.

When it comes to bribery and corruption, vast sections of Pakistan's professional, wealthy and middle classes fall in the latter, and not former, of the above categories.

Your saudi friend has basically explained a hadith to you.

The question is how has the society become like this? It can't be that so many people are born corrupt. Surely they see and observe whats going on around them. People getting away with corruption, building big houses , owning luxurious cars. This is unintended grooming of the people. They internalize it gradually to a point where they feel people owe them something everytime they do their job. But how has this change in such a big section of the population come about? Imo its lack of fear of being caught. Where there is lack of fear of being caught, its more a matter of getting an opportunity than choice. Put an American in such a system and there is a good chance that he will be corrupt once he gets an opportunity. Can't generalize again but there is good chance.

Imo Vigilance departments have to be made stronger. Unfortunately what we see is that the people appointed to catch the corrupt are corrupt themselves. If they start now, It will take a long time, a very long time to change things on ground.

 

[Yossarian]

It's nothing to do with society, it's about law enforcement. Where the law is rigorously enforced society has to fall in line whether it likes it or not. Try removing laws and jails from the US or the UK and let's see how long society remains honest and corruption free.

The question is how has the society become like this? It can't be that so many people are born corrupt. Surely they see and observe whats going on around them. People getting away with corruption, building big houses , owning luxurious cars. This is unintended grooming of the people. They internalize it gradually to a point where they feel people owe them something everytime they do their job. But how has this change in such a big section of the population come about? Imo its lack of fear of being caught. Where there is lack of fear of being caught, its more a matter of getting an opportunity than choice. Put an American in such a system and there is a good chance that he will be corrupt once he gets an opportunity. Can't generalize again but there is good chance.

Imo Vigilance departments have to be made stronger. Unfortunately what we see is that the people appointed to catch the corrupt are corrupt themselves. If they start now, It will take a long time, a very long time to change things on ground.

......... And also since the professional, wealthy and middle classes, between them, control all the power, they will ensure that they will never be caught, and if caught, they will never be punished.

Hence, not only is there no incentive for them to stop, there is also no deterrence that will make the professional, wealthy and middle classes fear the consequences.

Basically, we're all reading from the same page. Perhaps because none of us are from those sections of the wealthy, middle classes who benefit the most from this rampant corruption? (I'm certainly not from the wealthy middle classes. I have humble beginnings )

But then again I might be wrong?