Pakistani students to be allowed to study in IITs

[MIG]

Shame that our institutions cant produce quality grads at the rate IITs do.

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From the Times Of India online.....


IITs, IIMs open doors to Pakistan
URMI A GOSWAMI

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, APRIL 20, 2005 0921 AM ]

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NEW DELHI: In the name of peace and neighbourly ties, your child may have to compete harder for that elusive seat at the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) or the Indian Institute of Management (IIM). For, Pakistani students will soon be able to study at the IITs and IIMs.


This is a major reversal in policy as foreign students haven't been allowed to study at the IITs so far. In fact, despite being among institutes with global recognition, the IITs and IIMs have never been part of any of the education roadshows organised by either EdCIL (Education Consultants India) or UGC-FICCI.

The idea being that as state-run institutions, funded substantially by the government, Indian students should have the first dibs on IIT/IIM education .

The suggestion was made by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during his meetings with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.

Sources say the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) is keen on seeing the proposal go through.

Pakistani students would have to appear for the IIT-JEE (IIT's joint entrance exam) and the CAT (IIM's common admission test).

A measure of the interest in opening up the country's premier engineering and management institutions is the fact that the government will consider devising a separate exam for the Pakistani candidates...

...in the event that they can not appear for the IIT-JEE or CAT.

The ministry of human resources development, which the administrative ministry for these two institutions, will begin talks with the PMO shortly. Talks would determine modalities of the admission, the percentage of seats to be set aside for Pakistani students and the fee structure.

Admission to the IITs and IIMs are extremely competitive, with students working hard to crack the exams. In the case of the seven IITs, there are some 3000-odd seats up for grabs, while the six IIMs take in some 1300-odd students every year. More than two lakh students appear for the IITs while one lakh compete for the IIMs.

What is not clear is if this will mark the beginning of opening up of these highly-prized government-funded institutions to foreigners. Or will the Pakistani students be accorded a special favour?

 

[Officer Barbrady]

I think we should go a step further and import Indian professors for our under-staffed universities.

 

[Napa]

Shame that our institutions cant produce quality grads at the rate IITs do.

=========
From the Times Of India online.....


IITs, IIMs open doors to Pakistan
URMI A GOSWAMI

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, APRIL 20, 2005 0921 AM ]

Sign into earnIndiatimes points

NEW DELHI: In the name of peace and neighbourly ties, your child may have to compete harder for that elusive seat at the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) or the Indian Institute of Management (IIM). For, Pakistani students will soon be able to study at the IITs and IIMs.

This would have been an order of magnitude improvement in relations between the two countries if this had happened.

This is a major reversal in policy as foreign students haven't been allowed to study at the IITs so far.

This is incorrect. I distinctly remember Bangladeshi and Palestinian fellow students. What may be true is that foreign students were not allowed to appear from the JEE.

Sources say the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) is keen on seeing the proposal go through.

Pakistani students would have to appear for the IIT-JEE (IIT's joint entrance exam) and the CAT (IIM's common admission test).

A measure of the interest in opening up the country's premier engineering and management institutions is the fact that the government will consider devising a separate exam for the Pakistani candidates...

...in the event that they can not appear for the IIT-JEE or CAT.

Shouldn't have been hard to have centers in Pakistan.

I think we should go a step further and import Indian professors for our under-staffed universities.

The success of the IITs is more due to the quality of the students rather than the quality of the professors. There are a few exceptional professors, but many are quite ordinary.

 

[JaDed]

Wow we were so close to friendship back then.. 16 years ago my goodness

 

[cricketjoshila]

India allows BD, Nepalese,Bhutanese,Maldivian, Afghans and Tibetans in govt medical and engineering colleges.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I've worked with rejects from IITs who came to study in the UK.

These guys are absolute machines and the most dedicated engineers I have ever met. They eat sleep and breathe engineering and are constantly learning and pushing the boundaries of what is achievable in projects.

It makes me wonder what the guys who actually got into IITs are like.

 

[Buffet]

I've worked with rejects from IITs who came to study in the UK.

These guys are absolute machines and the most dedicated engineers I have ever met. They eat sleep and breathe engineering and are constantly learning and pushing the boundaries of what is achievable in projects.

It makes me wonder what the guys who actually got into IITs are like.

They are pretty good, but it has not much to do with IIT. If you open an institute in Pakistan and take the top 1% of candidates with open and honest selection tests in Math/Physics/Chem at the national level then it is not surprising that those 1% will be good. That's what happens to get into IIT.

In my previous company, we were hiring around 40-50 engineers when building a new center in California and we even went to some IIT campuses in India to hire. Facilities and teachers have improved with more funding, but even in the early days, IIT's quality was based on the quality of students due to selection criteria.

I am not sure why Pakistan or other countries don't copy it. Not all hires from IITs are brilliant, but you at least get a basic assurance about level. It makes hiring easier. Having a bad hire is very costly for companies. The same thing can happen in Pakistan or any other country. One thing has to be ensured that no one can get into those colleges even if he/she is the son/daughter of the president of the country.

I am trivializing it a bit here because IITS are run autonomously and have a strong undergraduate program, but the main thing is who they allow joining.

 

[Buffet]

One thing stood out during interviews - pretty much every single student was poor or belonged to the middle class. It may have changed now, but we never encountered anyone from a wealthy family. I guess they won't have the motivation to work hard enough to make it there. There could be exceptions but just talking about the norm.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

They are pretty good, but it has not much to do with IIT. If you open an institute in Pakistan and take the top 1% of candidates with open and honest selection tests in Math/Physics/Chem at the national level then it is not surprising that those 1% will be good. That's what happens to get into IIT.

In my previous company, we were hiring around 40-50 engineers when building a new center in California and we even went to some IIT campuses in India to hire. Facilities and teachers have improved with more funding, but even in the early days, IIT's quality was based on the quality of students due to selection criteria.

I am not sure why Pakistan or other countries don't copy it. Not all hires from IITs are brilliant, but you at least get a basic assurance about level. It makes hiring easier. Having a bad hire is very costly for companies. The same thing can happen in Pakistan or any other country. One thing has to be ensured that no one can get into those colleges even if he/she is the son/daughter of the president of the country.

I am trivializing it a bit here because IITS are run autonomously and have a strong undergraduate program, but the main thing is who they allow joining.

I think the type of education in Pakistan is different.

In comparison to the UK for example you will see Pakistani students exposed to more advanced concepts at an earlier age but there is no real culture of trying to understand the theory behind them, the focus is mainly on rote memorisation and being able to recall the figures. I don't know if there is a focus on research papers or dissertations at BSC or MSC level, the focus seems to be on passing exams....I could be wrong on this perhaps a Pakistani uni student can confirm.

The Indian students I have met seem to be able to grasp concepts exceptionally quickly and are able to create new knowledge within the industries they work in. This makes them a major asset and their thirst for learning never seem to cease, from Engineering they do an MBA and become leaders in organisations at a rate much faster than Pakistanis. To me, it all stems down to an intellectual curiosity that is developed in the Indian education system versus mundane rote learning in Pakistan.

 

[Giannis]

I think the type of education in Pakistan is different.

In comparison to the UK for example you will see Pakistani students exposed to more advanced concepts at an earlier age but there is no real culture of trying to understand the theory behind them, the focus is mainly on rote memorisation and being able to recall the figures. I don't know if there is a focus on research papers or dissertations at BSC or MSC level, the focus seems to be on passing exams....I could be wrong on this perhaps a Pakistani uni student can confirm.

The Indian students I have met seem to be able to grasp concepts exceptionally quickly and are able to create new knowledge within the industries they work in. This makes them a major asset and their thirst for learning never seem to cease, from Engineering they do an MBA and become leaders in organisations at a rate much faster than Pakistanis. To me, it all stems down to an intellectual curiosity that is developed in the Indian education system versus mundane rote learning in Pakistan.

I don't think Pakistan is far behind India. I have a couple of cousins that studied at this engineering institute in Karachi, I can't recall the name but they ended up at FAANG companies in Europe, they say that school has a reputation of producing really good engineers.

 

[PakLFC]

All we produce is over religious zealots and madrassa's. Anyone who admits this is called an Indian.

 

[Napa]

One thing stood out during interviews - pretty much every single student was poor or belonged to the middle class. It may have changed now, but we never encountered anyone from a wealthy family. I guess they won't have the motivation to work hard enough to make it there. There could be exceptions but just talking about the norm.

My batch was quite uniform, it was almost entirely middle class, children of government servants and other professionals, or small businessmen. If you travelled from the US to hire them, their attire would probably have seem shabby and they may have looked that they belonged to poor families.

Can't remember anyone from a poor family in my batch, unfortunately it needed a certain culture of education in the family and a bit (not a lot) of money to be spent on the coaching services to succeed in the entrance exam. It may be different now, and the number of students admitted has also increased significantly.

 

[mustang]

I've worked with rejects from IITs who came to study in the UK.

These guys are absolute machines and the most dedicated engineers I have ever met. They eat sleep and breathe engineering and are constantly learning and pushing the boundaries of what is achievable in projects.

It makes me wonder what the guys who actually got into IITs are like.

All we produce is over religious zealots and madrassa's. Anyone who admits this is called an Indian.

I believe that there are 2 components to creating a smart+productive population - nature and nurture.

Nature = the genetic component corresponding to intellect present at an equal percentage among all population sets. We can assume that 1% of every population is blessed with this genetic lottery.

Nurture = the conducive environment created for a population set to capture and enhance their intellect.

The interesting part IMO is that nurture plays a far more important role than just nature meaning - if the nurture component is higher, than a population set outperforms another population set with higher nature component but with a lower nurture component (all other things being equal).

In simple terms - Knowledge Output = (Nature)*(Nurture)

The issue for Pakistan is that even though the nature part is consistent with all other population sets (say 1% being high IQ), the nurture is abysmally low and thus the overall output is also low. Statements like "Pakistanis are not far behind" or "Pakistanis are also intelligent" while true, do not show the full picture. As in every population set, there are some exceptionally smart people (say 0.01%) who excel even when their "Nurture" variable is very low. Showcasing such instances and claiming "we are also intelligent" (though giving a feel good factor) does not show the full picture.

It is a sad case really because with a population of 200+ Million, the 1% "Nature" group of Pakistan has great potential but they get destroyed by the pretty bad "Nurture" ecosystem.

 

[Giannis]

I believe that there are 2 components to creating a smart+productive population - nature and nurture.

Nature = the genetic component corresponding to intellect present at an equal percentage among all population sets. We can assume that 1% of every population is blessed with this genetic lottery.

Nurture = the conducive environment created for a population set to capture and enhance their intellect.

The interesting part IMO is that nurture plays a far more important role than just nature meaning - if the nurture component is higher, than a population set outperforms another population set with higher nature component but with a lower nurture component (all other things being equal).

In simple terms - Knowledge Output = (Nature)*(Nurture)

The issue for Pakistan is that even though the nature part is consistent with all other population sets (say 1% being high IQ), the nurture is abysmally low and thus the overall output is also low. Statements like "Pakistanis are not far behind" or "Pakistanis are also intelligent" while true, do not show the full picture. As in every population set, there are some exceptionally smart people (say 0.01%) who excel even when their "Nurture" variable is very low. Showcasing such instances and claiming "we are also intelligent" (though giving a feel good factor) does not show the full picture.

It is a sad case really because with a population of 200+ Million, the 1% "Nature" group of Pakistan has great potential but they get destroyed by the pretty bad "Nurture" ecosystem.

Well then India's output must be atrocious as tens of thousands of engineers mean nothing when it comes from a country of 1.4 billion people. Not one major electronics company, automakers or tech company (FAANG level) was founded by an Indian nor based in India. That's a shame cause when South Korea and Japan were at India's level of development like ~ 40-50 years back they had household name brands worldwide, they must have an inherently better nurture system.

 

[mustang]

Well then India's output must be atrocious as tens of thousands of engineers mean nothing when it comes from a country of 1.4 billion people. Not one major electronics company, automakers or tech company (FAANG level) was founded by an Indian nor based in India. That's a shame cause when South Korea and Japan were at India's level of development like ~ 40-50 years back they had household name brands worldwide, they must have an inherently better nurture system.

The basis of your assumption is wrong, maybe because you are more focused on cheap point scoring as opposed to understanding my actual point. Perhaps you are so addicted to a feel good factor by putting another country down because you see nothing positive about your own? I'm digressing here and this can introduce a new can of pointless worms that are unrelated for this thread. If you did not intend this way and my assumption is wrong, then my apologies. I do not intend to take a dig at you unnecessarily but I'm just feeling compelled to call it out.

Let's stay on topic here ...

My point about the nature and nurture is only for the knowledge capital churned out from the population set of a national entity. It has nothing to do with the quantity+quality of entrepreneurial initiatives within a nation because those depend on easier availability of lower cost of capital combined with a transparent & quick legal system with low bureaucracy.

So ...

Knowledge Output = (Nature)*(Nurture)

Entrepreneurial Output = (Knowledge Output)*(Lower Cost of Capital)*(Easier Access to Capital)*(Legal Transparency)*(Lower Bureaucracy)

Entrepreneurial Output above can be intra-company innovation or new company.

While India has a high Knowledge Output, it really sucks in the other components. Hence you can observe two things ...

1. Indians excelling out of this Knowledge Capital seek avenues outside of India, thus you also see a higher number of Indians excelling in leadership roles in global firms outside of India

2. The few Indians who do excel out of their Knowledge Capital and stay in India seek to circumvent the legal/capital mess by registering their firm as a Singapore entity. Singapore, as we know has much better legal system (with low bureaucracy) and thus attracts more investors into a company (more investors = lower cost of capital).

The countries you mentioned (Japan, South Korea) excel not just in Knowledge Capital but also on the capital access and legal components, and thus they have better entrepreneurial output. When you are comparing them to a place like India you are thus not looking at the complete picture and are comparing apples to oranges. If you compare only Knowledge Capital then one can say that India does go toe-toe with the likes of Japan and South Korea.

 

[JaDed]

The documentary on IIT in Netflix should give a clear idea to everyone how pressuring IITs can be for students, the only good thing about IITs is meritocracy because you have to crack the exam(you can’t get in by influence) same with IIMs.

 

[Napa]

That's a shame cause when South Korea and Japan were at India's level of development like ~ 40-50 years back they had household name brands worldwide, they must have an inherently better nurture system.

India lost about 45 years due to Gandhi-Nehru socialism. During that time the Indian universities did keep producing brilliant students but they had to go abroad to succeed, like Khosla the co-founder of Sun Microsystems.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I don't think Pakistan is far behind India. I have a couple of cousins that studied at this engineering institute in Karachi, I can't recall the name but they ended up at FAANG companies in Europe, they say that school has a reputation of producing really good engineers.

Its probably a similar case to cricket where we through up the odd talent that breaks through despite the system rather than because of it.

 

[Major]

I think the type of education in Pakistan is different.

In comparison to the UK for example you will see Pakistani students exposed to more advanced concepts at an earlier age but there is no real culture of trying to understand the theory behind them, the focus is mainly on rote memorisation and being able to recall the figures. I don't know if there is a focus on research papers or dissertations at BSC or MSC level, the focus seems to be on passing exams....I could be wrong on this perhaps a Pakistani uni student can confirm.

The Indian students I have met seem to be able to grasp concepts exceptionally quickly and are able to create new knowledge within the industries they work in. This makes them a major asset and their thirst for learning never seem to cease, from Engineering they do an MBA and become leaders in organisations at a rate much faster than Pakistanis. To me, it all stems down to an intellectual curiosity that is developed in the Indian education system versus mundane rote learning in Pakistan.

Though I have studied Business, but what i saw in our uni education system was, teachers and so called professors would reject theories of different theorist. Majority of them think theories mean nothing when infact its based on research.

The research courses we did had in our business education, there were 1-2 courses and even in that students had copied and pasted the past research papers and had not done their own. Many students did not know what they meant and the teacher would just grade them and students goal would be to pass.

I dont know about the pure sciences though, maybe the things are better there. FAST i heard was quite strict in its marking.

Alot of problem in our education system is the FSC and metric model where cramming and memorization is thought.
For example, our teacher told us that about the round table conference, he had asked his teacher why was this done on a round table. The teacher first angry punished him for asking a question and than went on to say round table conference in Pakistan history was basically a guy sitting in the middle with a rotating chair while dealling with all the representatives in a round table. The teacher told us that later in life as he studied Pakistani history more he figured the b.s he was thought.


While proper education reforms are needed, but one thing i really despise about these IITs are that competitive selection. Becuase to get into such unis or programs, a whole industry than gets made where competative exams are held for selection and for those exams an academy industry comes into existence. The academies give false promises and only 1 percent or 0.5 percent of the students from those acadmies actually get in. 99% who pay the academy fees get nothing in return except for knowledge on how to pass a competitive exam.

The south Asian culture of competition in education is very very very toxic.

I believe your grades in highschool should be enough for getting into a uni, so that if students are to compete than it should be in educatiion they are already getting. Not some entrance test that wastes further time and creates toxic environement.

 

[Major]

All we produce is over religious zealots and madrassa's. Anyone who admits this is called an Indian.

We dont celebrate education. People dont value uni education here.

I remember in Canada how people really valued uni education etc. In Pakistan people dont even care. Infact, i remember the day i passed my final exam is the day one of my sibling also got married. My relatives cared more about that than me getting 16 years of education .

Even our unis have a culture of Highschool. Our unis are like the American Highschool where wearing goood clothes, driving good cars to class means you are cool.

Very a schoolbag is considered an embarrassment here and most students prefer to hold a register in their hand.

I think its the culture of education that has become here that needs to be fixed.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

The basis of your assumption is wrong, maybe because you are more focused on cheap point scoring as opposed to understanding my actual point. Perhaps you are so addicted to a feel good factor by putting another country down because you see nothing positive about your own? I'm digressing here and this can introduce a new can of pointless worms that are unrelated for this thread. If you did not intend this way and my assumption is wrong, then my apologies. I do not intend to take a dig at you unnecessarily but I'm just feeling compelled to call it out.

Let's stay on topic here ...

My point about the nature and nurture is only for the knowledge capital churned out from the population set of a national entity. It has nothing to do with the quantity+quality of entrepreneurial initiatives within a nation because those depend on easier availability of lower cost of capital combined with a transparent & quick legal system with low bureaucracy.

So ...

Knowledge Output = (Nature)*(Nurture)

Entrepreneurial Output = (Knowledge Output)*(Lower Cost of Capital)*(Easier Access to Capital)*(Legal Transparency)*(Lower Bureaucracy)

Entrepreneurial Output above can be intra-company innovation or new company.

While India has a high Knowledge Output, it really sucks in the other components. Hence you can observe two things ...

1. Indians excelling out of this Knowledge Capital seek avenues outside of India, thus you also see a higher number of Indians excelling in leadership roles in global firms outside of India

2. The few Indians who do excel out of their Knowledge Capital and stay in India seek to circumvent the legal/capital mess by registering their firm as a Singapore entity. Singapore, as we know has much better legal system (with low bureaucracy) and thus attracts more investors into a company (more investors = lower cost of capital).

The countries you mentioned (Japan, South Korea) excel not just in Knowledge Capital but also on the capital access and legal components, and thus they have better entrepreneurial output. When you are comparing them to a place like India you are thus not looking at the complete picture and are comparing apples to oranges. If you compare only Knowledge Capital then one can say that India does go toe-toe with the likes of Japan and South Korea.

Interesting enough, only a few weeks ago, I was having a conversation with a Physician who is an MD and double Fellow in Human Psychology and Psychiatry. A well known doctor in USA.

And he said the same exact thing about LGBT in young and growing kids.
Natured and nurtured.

There is a very minor group of LGBT that is natured (born with it) - and there is a very large group who gets nurtured depending on the environment and support they get from their demographics and surroundings.
At least, the theory is, this larger group of nurtured LGBTs would actually remain straight homosexuals if they were brought up in different social atmosphere.

 

[mustang]

Interesting enough, only a few weeks ago, I was having a conversation with a Physician who is an MD and double Fellow in Human Psychology and Psychiatry. A well known doctor in USA.

And he said the same exact thing about LGBT in young and growing kids.
Natured and nurtured.

There is a very minor group of LGBT that is natured (born with it) - and there is a very large group who gets nurtured depending on the environment and support they get from their demographics and surroundings.
At least, the theory is, this larger group of nurtured LGBTs would actually remain straight homosexuals if they were brought up in different social atmosphere.

I do not know much about the psychology ad psychiatry aspects (certainly not to the level of your MD friend). I'm personally a bit skeptical that the nurture component would be so huge to effect a change in sexual orientation or sexuality. But of course, I'm happy to exchange more thoughts and possibly also learn from your points.

Perhaps we can discuss this in another thread? This thread being more focused on the efficacy of education institutions - I want to make sure this is not creating a digression from the core discussion point of this thread (especially given the sensitive nature of the point you had raised).