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Pakistan's lower-order batting depth only second to England?

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cricketerB94

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Following is Pakistan's probable XI that will start in the world cup:

Fakhar
Imam
Babar
Hafeez/Haris
Sarfraz
Malik/Asif
Imad
Shadab
Wahab
Hasan
Amir

If we look at the batting depth, we have Wahab, Hasan and Amir coming at 9, 10 and 11 who have some match winning performances with the bat. Wahab - in 2015 world cup against Zimbabwe, Hasan - against Sri Lanka, Amir - against Sri Lanka in Champions Trophy 2017.

With this batting depth, will we see more fluent batting from Pakistan - like England - or will it be the same batting which we call selfish batting at the end of the day?
 
If the pitch is a road then pak batting max capacity is 280

Anything in the pitch then its 220/240
 
Wahab, Hasan have minimal ability with bat with averages of 13 each. Amir is a tad better but in no way can be considered reliable with the bat.

Imad and Shadab at numbers 7 and 8 are worse than their counterparts from major teams.
 
The actual problem is that Pakistan top order is as reliable as the bottom 3.
 
Grunge101 said:
Wahab, Hasan have minimal ability with bat with averages of 13 each. Amir is a tad better but in no way can be considered reliable with the bat.

Imad and Shadab at numbers 7 and 8 are worse than their counterparts from major teams.
Click to expand...

Amir has good defence as compared to Wahab and Hasan Ali. We have already seen that vs NZ (Pre-Ban) , Vs England (2016) and Vs SL ( CT).


However in terms of hitting capability Hasan has more to offer than Wahab. But arrogance is the only problem which comes between Hasan and success. He needs to get over it.
 
cricketerB94 said:
Following is Pakistan's probable XI that will start in the world cup:

Fakhar
Imam
Babar
Hafeez/Haris
Sarfraz
Malik/Asif
Imad
Shadab
Wahab
Hasan
Amir

If we look at the batting depth, we have Wahab, Hasan and Amir coming at 9, 10 and 11 who have some match winning performances with the bat. Wahab - in 2015 world cup against Zimbabwe, Hasan - against Sri Lanka, Amir - against Sri Lanka in Champions Trophy 2017.

With this batting depth, will we see more fluent batting from Pakistan - like England - or will it be the same batting which we call selfish batting at the end of the day?
Click to expand...

Still can't win against afghanistan with this legendary batting line up what a shame
 
Maliq_Mudasir said:
Amir has good defence as compared to Wahab and Hasan Ali. We have already seen that vs NZ (Pre-Ban) , Vs England (2016) and Vs SL ( CT).


However in terms of hitting capability Hasan has more to offer than Wahab. But arrogance is the only problem which comes between Hasan and success. He needs to get over it.
Click to expand...
They will come handy once in 50 times if you will depend your tailenders to win matches then get ready for 49 match losing streak
 
Indeed batting depth can be our strength but our bigger weakness is the insipid bowling which on paper looks good but in reality its badly average our bowlers need to find the rhythm seamers in particular
 
Good on papers. Not in reality.

Pakistan can save their wickets but can't chase.
 
Quite a odd thread from usual trend of past few days

Indeed Pakistan do have strong tail need few thing to get fixed we will be good to go.
 
Mohammad zuber said:
Still can't win against afghanistan with this legendary batting line up what a shame
Click to expand...

Won against them in the asia cup. Will annihilate them in the group stage match. It's a win for afg in a warm up match. Is that how big minnows afg are??? They're celebrating a WARM UP MATCH VICTORY. LOL.
 
Ronaldo7 said:
Won against them in the asia cup. Will annihilate them in the group stage match. It's a win for afg in a warm up match. Is that how big minnows afg are??? They're celebrating a WARM UP MATCH VICTORY. LOL.
Click to expand...
In last over with huffing and puffing with their main 11
 
Pakistan actually have a ‘good’ batting line up going into the World Cup.

They are not ‘great’ but they are NR bad or average at all.

And yes Malik/Hafeez/Sarfraz right now look at par or even better than Shankar/Jadhav/Dhoni

India’s top 3 is at par or better than any country.
 
Just checked this thread wasn't an old one which had been bumped from years ago.

Nope it's new. My god the levels of delusion on here. :91:
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Just checked this thread wasn't an old one which had been bumped from years ago.

Nope it's new. My god the levels of delusion on here. :91:
Click to expand...

Agreed, people are expecting miracles from malik, hafeez etc.. who have been failures for over 15 years. Delusion of highest order.
 
If we play Riaz, Amir and Hasan Ali then yes we have batting down to 11. But their primary job is bowling which I have very little hope in them.
 
The quality of England lower order is far superior to Pakistan.

Haassan , Aamir , Wahab are no mugs with the bat , but are not consistent enough.
 
Pakistan have lost 11 consecutive games its so scary that I doubt they've made agame plan that whether to chase do they know whatr are WI strength and how to contain WI batsman and do they remember the golden words thay "catches win matches" :gibbs
 
People are missing one thing here.

Plunkett who bats at 9 or 10 for England is a better hitter of the ball than anyone in Pakistan's squad barring Fakhar perhaps.
 
cricketerB94 said:
Following is Pakistan's probable XI that will start in the world cup:

Fakhar
Imam
Babar
Hafeez/Haris
Sarfraz
Malik/Asif
Imad
Shadab
Wahab
Hasan
Amir

If we look at the batting depth, we have Wahab, Hasan and Amir coming at 9, 10 and 11 who have some match winning performances with the bat. Wahab - in 2015 world cup against Zimbabwe, Hasan - against Sri Lanka, Amir - against Sri Lanka in Champions Trophy 2017.

With this batting depth, will we see more fluent batting from Pakistan - like England - or will it be the same batting which we call selfish batting at the end of the day?
Click to expand...

are you serious ?
 
More like 4th, I think Windies and Australians have better depth. Definitely much better than India's.
 
Wahab and Amir aren't reliable batters. Also Hasan Ali seems to be a decent hitter but doesn't have a decent defence or consistency.
 
This thread has nothing to do with Pakistan's recent form - everyone knows that.

This thread has nothing to do with the quality of Pakistan's batsmen - everyone knows that.

Let me make the purpose of this thread more clear. The purpose of this thread is to discuss:

i)- Pakistan's batting depth
ii)- Its comparison with previous Pakistan teams
iii)- Its comparison with other current teams
iv)- Can Pakistan's batsmen take advantage of batting depth like England batsmen do?

We have not seen this batting depth in previous matches as Pakistan XI was accomodating 2 of Shaheen, Junaid, Shinwari and Hasnain in most of their matches. So the probable batting depth in world cup has nothing to do with Pakistan's recent form.

I don't remember any Pakistan team which have this much batting depth. I remember in last world cup 2015, Pakistan XI had Wahab at number 8 and then a long tail at 9, 10 and 11 (Yasir/Sohail, Rahat and Irfan).

If comparing the probable Pakistan's team batting depth with other teams, I see only England above Pakistan because of the quality of their tailenders as they can hit hard. But other teams do not have this much batting depth. For this, I have a question. If your team is 7 wickets down, 40 runs required off 50 balls and No.9, 10 and 11 are batting for your team, which 9, 10 and 11 will give you a hope to win:

Eng: Archer, Rashid, Wood/Plunkett
Ind: Kuldeep/Shami, Chahal, Bumrah
NZ: Boult, Ferguson, Sodhi
SAF: Rabada, Ngidi, Tahir
Aus: Cummins, Lyon, Zampa
Pak: Wahab, Hasan, Amir
Ban: Mehidy, Mustafiz, Rubel
SRL: J Mendis, Lakmal, Malinga
WIN: Thomas, Gabriel, Cottrell
Afg: Mujeeb, Dawlat, Hamid

I will pick Pakistan's trio because all of them have a couple of 50s in ODIs.

Now comes the real question - what do a team gain by batting depth?

England have the answers for it - Every batsman in top 6 can play fluently without taking much care of anchoring the innings, they have only Root to do this. But if we look at Pakistan's batsmen, every batsman starts anchoring the innings whenever a wicket falls around him. There is a big difference in the quality of batsmen but the lack of quality should not take away the fluency from the batsmen.
 
What an embarrassing thread. We barely struggle to make 260 yesterday, the same team which England ruined today.
 
cricketerB94 said:
This thread has nothing to do with Pakistan's recent form - everyone knows that.

This thread has nothing to do with the quality of Pakistan's batsmen - everyone knows that.

Let me make the purpose of this thread more clear. The purpose of this thread is to discuss:

i)- Pakistan's batting depth
ii)- Its comparison with previous Pakistan teams
iii)- Its comparison with other current teams
iv)- Can Pakistan's batsmen take advantage of batting depth like England batsmen do?

We have not seen this batting depth in previous matches as Pakistan XI was accomodating 2 of Shaheen, Junaid, Shinwari and Hasnain in most of their matches. So the probable batting depth in world cup has nothing to do with Pakistan's recent form.

I don't remember any Pakistan team which have this much batting depth. I remember in last world cup 2015, Pakistan XI had Wahab at number 8 and then a long tail at 9, 10 and 11 (Yasir/Sohail, Rahat and Irfan).

If comparing the probable Pakistan's team batting depth with other teams, I see only England above Pakistan because of the quality of their tailenders as they can hit hard. But other teams do not have this much batting depth. For this, I have a question. If your team is 7 wickets down, 40 runs required off 50 balls and No.9, 10 and 11 are batting for your team, which 9, 10 and 11 will give you a hope to win:

Eng: Archer, Rashid, Wood/Plunkett
Ind: Kuldeep/Shami, Chahal, Bumrah
NZ: Boult, Ferguson, Sodhi
SAF: Rabada, Ngidi, Tahir
Aus: Cummins, Lyon, Zampa
Pak: Wahab, Hasan, Amir
Ban: Mehidy, Mustafiz, Rubel
SRL: J Mendis, Lakmal, Malinga
WIN: Thomas, Gabriel, Cottrell
Afg: Mujeeb, Dawlat, Hamid

I will pick Pakistan's trio because all of them have a couple of 50s in ODIs.

Now comes the real question - what do a team gain by batting depth?

England have the answers for it - Every batsman in top 6 can play fluently without taking much care of anchoring the innings, they have only Root to do this. But if we look at Pakistan's batsmen, every batsman starts anchoring the innings whenever a wicket falls around him. There is a big difference in the quality of batsmen but the lack of quality should not take away the fluency from the batsmen.
Click to expand...

I have to say, before I thought you were just talking nonsense but looking at the 3 tailenders of all the teams, pak have potent tailenders.
Looking at the names given, pak have the second best tailenders after eng.
 
dhump said:
The actual problem is that Pakistan top order is as reliable as the bottom 3.
Click to expand...

How do you define reliability? As far as ODI run scoring is concerned, this is our best top 3 ever.

They even stack up quite well with their contemporaries in other teams.
 
Neither Pak batting nor bowling (seems the weakest link right now) is strong or consistent imo. Fielding and catching will always remain sloppy. It was the same story under Imran's captaincy as well. Besides no genuine batting all-rounder in the team. So lets be realistic about our chances. That said no one really thought that Pakistan would win the CT in 2017 or for that mater the WC in 1992! The best team does not always win these events.

If Pakistan don't quickly get their act together esp. their bowling, even supposedly weak teams like Windies and Sri Lanka can beat them on their day.

To qualify for the semis, Pakistan will have to beat Sri Lanka, Windies, Afghanistan (I expect them to beat Afghanistan in the real tournament) and Zimbabwe


PLUS at least two (or three esp. if weather ruins one of their games against the above teams) of the five stronger teams (Aus, Eng, India, NZ and RSA)

A tall order imo


Although everyone is saying England, Australia is the team to beat for me. With Smith and Warner back they look very strong indeed and they have a very good chance of winning the world cup and retaining their title. Besides the Aussies generally don't lose against England in big tournaments..
 
When will our fans ever learn? Reading this thread is just another head in hand moment :facepalm:. This will get bumped eternally by outsiders.
 
cricketerB94 said:
Following is Pakistan's probable XI that will start in the world cup:

Fakhar
Imam
Babar
Hafeez/Haris
Sarfraz
Malik/Asif
Imad
Shadab
Wahab
Hasan
Amir

If we look at the batting depth, we have Wahab, Hasan and Amir coming at 9, 10 and 11 who have some match winning performances with the bat. Wahab - in 2015 world cup against Zimbabwe, Hasan - against Sri Lanka, Amir - against Sri Lanka in Champions Trophy 2017.

With this batting depth, will we see more fluent batting from Pakistan - like England - or will it be the same batting which we call selfish batting at the end of the day?
Click to expand...

Nope Pakistan batting is no way near the Batting of NZ, India, Australia and of Course England. Wahab, Amir and Hasan can sometimes score a few runs and can hit a rare cameo. But are Tail enders for sure
 
Chokli said:
False.

We can score upwards of 350.
Click to expand...
Shouldn’t read into this meaningless bilateral v eng eng were experimenting pitches were roads.

World cup match has its own pressure & we knw pak batsman crap there pants the moment theres any hint of pressure so these 350s they were scoring will become 280.
 
AAli98 said:
If the pitch is a road then pak batting max capacity is 280

Anything in the pitch then its 220/240
Click to expand...

Not a big fan of Pakistani batting, but if they can make max 280 according to you, how do you explain the 3 scores in excess of 340 recently?
 
Provided Mickey and co have the guts to drop useless Malik and let Haris bat at 4 then i agree that our top order looks very solid. Based on averages it's clearly the best ODI top order Pakistan have had this century.

If Imam, Babar and Haris can get us to the 30th over for the loss of no more than 2 wickets then we should be aiming to add a further 160-200 runs from that point. The depth of Wahab and Hasan way down the order should allow everyone else to play with freedom knowing that these two could handle the final few overs should it come to that.
 
Last edited:
Itachi said:
Good on papers. Not in reality.

Pakistan can save their wickets but can't chase.
Click to expand...

You’re just extremely hurt over the fact that your tail is the worst in the world heck you were making fun of the chart that Afghanistan was second on the list in the best tails in world cricket. Today they proved it as their number 11 was striking the ball cleanly and added some good 20 runs to the total and we all saw how good your number 11 is yesterday. Not only good on paper Amir has a 73 against newzeland and Hasan has two fifty’s against newzeland and South Africa so they are good in reality unlike your Chris martins.
 
Last edited:
Maliq_Mudasir said:
Amir has good defence as compared to Wahab and Hasan Ali. We have already seen that vs NZ (Pre-Ban) , Vs England (2016) and Vs SL ( CT).


However in terms of hitting capability Hasan has more to offer than Wahab. But arrogance is the only problem which comes between Hasan and success. He needs to get over it.
Click to expand...

Only in Pakistan we can talk which tailender has better defense.
 
oqH6YK0.png


Going by stats, it's third after England and New Zealand (avg/SR combo).
 
Abdullah719 said:
Same stats (#8-11 since CWC15) SG version.

xXLFWRF.png
Click to expand...

Dear, do we have stats or something like that which team lose the most from winning position in last 5 years. This is the thing which Pakistan team carrying from Misbha's period and to me this is the most worrying thing.
 
Jeez the kind of optimistic threads you see on PakPassion these days you would have thought we are on the back of a 10 match winning streak not a losing streak. Perhaps I didn't get the memo but I am not very optimistic about our chances at the WC.
 
Syed1 said:
Jeez the kind of optimistic threads you see on PakPassion these days you would have thought we are on the back of a 10 match winning streak not a losing streak. Perhaps I didn't get the memo but I am not very optimistic about our chances at the WC.
Click to expand...

Chal nikal :sendoff

Streaks are made to be broken.
 
Abdullah719 said:
Same stats (#8-11 since CWC15) SG version.

xXLFWRF.png
Click to expand...

3 of Pak’s 50s are from Shadab Khan, he has also contributed to the overall average in recent times as he averages 29.

However just like our recent list of centuries most of the lower order contributions have been fruitless.

Most impactful ones I can remember are from Amir in CT 17 against Srl and Wahab’s against Zim in WC 2015.
 
Ronaldo7 said:
So are not included in the 8-11 stats...
Click to expand...

That person who posted those Stats should post the 50s.

I can remember Wahab 50 vs Bangladesh
Amirs 50 vs England in 2016 3rd ODI
Shadab 50 vs Sri Lanka in UAE
Hasan Ali 50 vs South Africa earlier this year
 
Chokli said:
That person who posted those Stats should post the 50s.

I can remember Wahab 50 vs Bangladesh
Amirs 50 vs England in 2016 3rd ODI
Shadab 50 vs Sri Lanka in UAE
Hasan Ali 50 vs South Africa earlier this year
Click to expand...

Wahab's 50 vs zim in the 2015 wc, which was a match winning 50.
Hasan ali 50 vs nz in nz
That's all I know
 
A bit off topic but does anyone else agree that Hasan Ali's bats sounds so freakin sweet!

If he shares his bats more often we are good for the semis.
 
Salman said:
A bit off topic but does anyone else agree that Hasan Ali's bats sounds so freakin sweet!

If he shares his bats more often we are good for the semis.
Click to expand...

Damn when he hits it jeez it’s just amazing true dat I agree with you
 
India's lower order is really poor. None of them can actually bat.
 
Syed1 said:
Jeez the kind of optimistic threads you see on PakPassion these days you would have thought we are on the back of a 10 match winning streak not a losing streak. Perhaps I didn't get the memo but I am not very optimistic about our chances at the WC.
Click to expand...

Optimistic threads are about the batting. In almost every metric, our batting has seriously improved over the past 3-4 years.

Sadly the bowling plummeted at the same time.
 
Abdullah719 said:
Optimistic threads are about the batting. In almost every metric, our batting has seriously improved over the past 3-4 years.

Sadly the bowling plummeted at the same time.
Click to expand...

Pakistan has started hitting 300 runs when other teams are now blasting 400s. That is the point which OP has missed.
 
Abdullah719 said:
Optimistic threads are about the batting. In almost every metric, our batting has seriously improved over the past 3-4 years.

Sadly the bowling plummeted at the same time.
Click to expand...

The law of compensation is real. If something doesnt follow the law, then its an anomaly.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Pakistan has started hitting 300 runs when other teams are now blasting 400s. That is the point which OP has missed.
Click to expand...

The OP is focused on the lower order performances, and by the stats added above, Pakistan has the 4th-best average and 3rd best strike-rate.

It is correct to say that we are behind the top teams in terms of overall batting, but the gap has narrowed quite a lot over the past few years. Whereas with bowling, the opposite occurred.
 
I think, OP is right. May be only adjustment he needs to do is to put just one word as qualifier in his statement- “statistically” - it’ll make perfect.
 
giri26 said:
India's lower order is really poor. None of them can actually bat.
Click to expand...

Which is why they need Jadeja batting at 8. Their best spinners are Kuldeep and Chahal, but I think they can afford to drop the latter to make way for Jaddu.
 
cricketInsight said:
How do you define reliability? As far as ODI run scoring is concerned, this is our best top 3 ever.

They even stack up quite well with their contemporaries in other teams.
Click to expand...

As far as reliability is concerned, one of them is mostly over aggressive swinging at everything (relying primarily on hand and eye coordination) type player and other two are comparatively slow for modern day ODI cricket. I can imagine Babar and Imam to score runs but not sure if those runs will be useful to win matches or boost their respective averages not that they play for themselves just that they are limited currently.
 
The problem I have with this list it doesn't reflect the lower order of these teams at present, since it's an overview of the last 4 years.

For e.g. WI are ranked in the middle of the list but barring England, they bat deeper than all the other sides on that list.

Braithwaite and Nurse scored 45 runs in just 25 balls, batting at 9 and 10 respectively.
 
topspin said:
The problem I have with this list it doesn't reflect the lower order of these teams at present, since it's an overview of the last 4 years.

For e.g. WI are ranked in the middle of the list but barring England, they bat deeper than all the other sides on that list.

Braithwaite and Nurse scored 45 runs in just 25 balls, batting at 9 and 10 respectively.
Click to expand...

It was a warmup match and they could have even played the backup opener at number 11. In an actual match they will have Nurse coming at 8. With only one of Braithwate or Russell playing and batting at 7.
 
Abdullah719 said:
The OP is focused on the lower order performances, and by the stats added above, Pakistan has the 4th-best average and 3rd best strike-rate.

It is correct to say that we are behind the top teams in terms of overall batting, but the gap has narrowed quite a lot over the past few years. Whereas with bowling, the opposite occurred.
Click to expand...

The lower order isn't contributing to many match winning efforts as far as I can see, so it's a meaningless stat. Otherwise why would we be complaining we don't have batsmen who are finishers?
 
India just needs lower order batsman who can stick around with top order. We don't even have that let alone scoring 40 runs 25 balls. Their mere survival itself is a big question mark. But they are best bowlers in the side that India cannot afford to drop. Indian top order can't bowl. India is in a worse possible situation. Lot of things have to go right so that India doesn't depend on lower order at all.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Don't think they should do that.
Click to expand...

Then you will have to bat B.Kumar at number 8, which destroys the balance of the team.

The difference in Chahal and Jadeja with the ball is not significant, however looking at the gulf in class with the bat justifies the exclusion of the former in favour of the latter.
 
Syed1 said:
It was a warmup match and they could have even played the backup opener at number 11. In an actual match they will have Nurse coming at 8. With only one of Braithwate or Russell playing and batting at 7.
Click to expand...

I expect the following XI with Nurse coming in at 9, so batting depth wise, they're still the second best (after England).

Chris Gayle
Evin Lewis
Shai Hope(Wk)
Darren Bravo
Shimron Hetmyer
Jason Holder(C)
Andre Russell
Carlos Brathwaithe
Ashely Nurse
Kemar Roach
Sheldon Cotrell
 
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