Pakistan's reluctance to play proper specialist spinners in ODI Cricket

[Savak]

We had the worst spin bowling attack in the 2023 ODI WC where our failure to take wickets and curtail the runs in the middle overs was brutally exposed.

We have some success in ODI Cricket against South Africa and Zimbabwe where Suffiyan Muqeem looks like a promising middle overs wicket taking prospect but our team think tank felt that relying on the useless Abrar and two run controlling part time spin options in Salman Ali Agha, Khusdil was the best way to go rather than having wicket taking options in the middle.

The lack of educated decision making and defensiveness which prevails in our Cricketing eco system is frustrating beyond limits.

 

[Hyder]

Everyone who is not in the team looks million dollars.

First it was usama mir
Then why we are benching abrar so long
Then sufyan and so on

Reality is we dont exactly have great spinners and we can't really fit in 4 genuine bowlers and then trust agha to bowl 10 overs every game?

Ideally we d have shadab nawaz agha but those two messed up and idk what happened to their bowling.

Fact is we dont even have any spinner better than imad wasim rn
He was more useful for team than these sole spinners without any spin or fielding or batting

 

[Aqib_mustafa]

We had the worst spin bowling attack in the 2023 ODI WC where our failure to take wickets and curtail the runs in the middle overs was brutally exposed.

We have some success in ODI Cricket against South Africa and Zimbabwe where Suffiyan Muqeem looks like a promising middle overs wicket taking prospect but our team think tank felt that relying on the useless Abrar and two run controlling part time spin options in Salman Ali Agha, Khusdil was the best way to go rather than having wicket taking options in the middle.

The lack of educated decision making and defensiveness which prevails in our Cricketing eco system is frustrating beyond limits.

Do you guys ever get happy it was aqib who introduced spin pitches in pakistan he was the one who selected sufiyan but since pak cant have both abrar and sufiyan aqib made the right decision to leave sufiyan so instead of crying read aqib mind he is genious at work.

 

[Aqib_mustafa]

Everyone who is not in the team looks million dollars.

First it was usama mir
Then why we are benching abrar so long
Then sufyan and so on

Reality is we dont exactly have great spinners and we can't really fit in 4 genuine bowlers and then trust agha to bowl 10 overs every game?

Ideally we d have shadab nawaz agha but those two messed up and idk what happened to their bowling.

Fact is we dont even have any spinner better than imad wasim rn
He was more useful for team than these sole spinners without any spin or fielding or batting

Bro dont you think aqib could have fit both sufiyan and abrar?

 

[Savak]

Do you guys ever get happy it was aqib who introduced spin pitches in pakistan he was the one who selected sufiyan but since pak cant have both abrar and sufiyan aqib made the right decision to leave sufiyan so instead of crying read aqib mind he is genious at work.

Suffiyan is a better option than Abrar who cannot even get wickets on a spinning pitch to save his life.

 

[Hyder]

Bro dont you think aqib could have fit both sufiyan and abrar?

No. You cant play 2 specialist spinners in your eleven when they can't hold bat unless u have hardik pandya level fast bowling all rounders

 

[Hyder]

Suffiyan is a better option than Abrar who cannot even get wickets on a spinning pitch to save his life.

Abrar never looked like taking a wicket but i dont think sufyan would ve done something better here. He is undercooked as of now

 

[Aqib_mustafa]

Suffiyan is a better option than Abrar who cannot even get wickets on a spinning pitch to save his life.

Suffiyan is a better option than Abrar who cannot even get wickets on a spinning pitch to save his life.

If i remember right it was abrar who bowled better than sufiyan in odis and didn't sufiyan went to cleaners in one of the t20 if i remember right he went over 60 runs vs south africa he was bowling like shadab.

 

[Savak]

Abrar never looked like taking a wicket but i dont think sufyan would ve done something better here. He is undercooked as of now

Undercooked yes but thats the beauty of Pakistan Cricket. The likes of Fakhar, Shadab, Hassan Ali were also undercooked in the 2017 CT. Pakistan has this wierd knack of sticking with under performing experienced players and being reluctant to try rookies and Pakistan used to exciting in the 80's and 90's for the manner in which they would through young inexperienced rookies out there in International Cricket.

 

[Savak]

If i remember right it was abrar who bowled better than sufiyan in odis and didn't sufiyan went to cleaners in one of the t20 if i remember right he went over 60 runs vs south africa he was bowling like shadab.

Suffiyan played a vital role in the 3rd ODI against South Africa where he wrapped up the tail. The same tail led South Africa to victory in the first test where they carted Abbas, Naseem, Jamal all around the park. Suffiyan wrecked Zimbabwe with a 5 wicket haul whereas Abrar didn't even look threatening.

Point is you have to select attacking wicket taking spinners in ODI Cricket. Wickets in the Middle overs are what will make or break games.

 

[Aqib_mustafa]

Undercooked yes but thats the beauty of Pakistan Cricket. The likes of Fakhar, Shadab, Hassan Ali were also undercooked in the 2017 CT. Pakistan has this wierd knack of sticking with under performing experienced players and being reluctant to try rookies and Pakistan used to exciting in the 80's and 90's for the manner in which they would through young inexperienced rookies out there in International Cricket.

But you should be happy at least pak got rid full tosser shadab and usama atleast abrar is a proper spinner pitches in pak are road so atleast he is containing batsmen i know you want to have sufiyan sajid trust me sajid would have gone for plenty sajid even goes for lot of runs in spin pitches.

 

[khyberlion]

The sooner the drama of Abrar comes to an end the better.

 

[Kianig89]

There is no complete spinner in Pakistan for ODis , we have tried East West everybody

Usama Mir, Zahid Mehmood, Sufyan, Abrar

The bits & pieces

Imad, Nawaz, Shadab, Ifti, Khusdil,

 

[Markhor]

It's always tricky creating the right balance. When the bowling suffers, we all want another specialist bowler. When the batting suffers, we want more batting depth.

Ultimately a compromise must be made somewhere.

Didn't see today's game live but with Rauf injured and neither Hasnain or Faheem convincing as third seamers, then you'd think another spinner on a slow, two paced pitch would've helped.

 

[Rana]

How about Pakistan’s reluctance to actually bat like a men’s side in international white ball cricket??

 

[Savak]

It's always tricky creating the right balance. When the bowling suffers, we all want another specialist bowler. When the batting suffers, we want more batting depth.

Ultimately a compromise must be made somewhere.

Didn't see today's game live but with Rauf injured and neither Hasnain or Faheem convincing as third seamers, then you'd think another spinner on a slow, two paced pitch would've helped.

Sajid and Nauman can bat and not complete tail enders. They are also going to be effective with the ball if there is some turn in the pitch for them. They will provide wicket taking options in the middle which our bowling lacks.

 

[Markhor]

Sajid and Nauman can bat and not complete tail enders. They are also going to be effective with the ball if there is some turn in the pitch for them. They will provide wicket taking options in the middle which our bowling lacks.

The question is how will Pakistani pitches behave under ICC supervision ?

Will it be a flat deck like the South Africa game or the slower surface in this final ?

Even in England in CT17, there was a two paced pitch in the Cardiff SF so any squad must be able to cover all eventualities.

 

[Aqib_mustafa]

The question is how will Pakistani pitches behave under ICC supervision ?

Will it be a flat deck like the South Africa game or the slower surface in this final ?

Even in England in CT17, there was a two paced pitch in the Cardiff SF so any squad must be able to cover all eventualities.

But i asked you one thing why cant pak play both sufiyan and abrar instead of playing 3 pacers why not 2 pacers any logic in this?

 

[Markhor]

But i asked you one thing why cant pak play both sufiyan and abrar instead of playing 3 pacers why not 2 pacers any logic in this?

Pakistan team management and logic doesn't usually go together.

I don't understand why they dropped Sufyan Muqeem having only played one ODI. Unfortunately our selectors have a habit of picking players and binning them just as quickly without giving them a proper opportunity.

 

[topspin]

I'm appalled that dead players like Khushdil and Faheem have been preferred to a specialist batsmen and spinner. I would've picked Aamer Jamal over Faheem and Sajid Khan over Khushdil.

 

[FearlessRoar]

In ODIs you need at least two specialist spinners who have control over their variations and length. Salman Ali Agha and Khushdil Shah are not reliable options, someone like Hardik Pandya can easily smash them for towering sixes.

As for Abrar Ahmed I don’t even feel like he’s a proper spinner. I just don’t understand where spinners like Saeed Ajmal and Saqlain Mushtaq have disappeared. IMO Sajid Khan and Noman Ali look much more threatening and I’m sure they can give batters a tough time, especially in the death overs of ODIs.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

I'm appalled that dead players like Khushdil and Faheem have been preferred to a specialist batsmen and spinner. I would've picked Aamer Jamal over Faheem and Sajid Khan over Khushdil.

sajid cant be ur finisher we need someone who can bat as well so i think in a worst case secenario they could have picked Shadab... he took 3 wickets againt Afghanistan tonight in a warmup game.

 

[topspin]

sajid cant be ur finisher we need someone who can bat as well so i think in a worst case secenario they could have picked Shadab... he took 3 wickets againt Afghanistan tonight in a warmup game.

Bro Pakistan doesn't have a finisher. If we did, he would have walked into this team with his eyes closed. This is why we have to resort t specialists.

I don't like Shadab because he is a Misbah product but he's much better pick than Faheem and Khushdil.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Bro Pakistan doesn't have a finisher. If we did, he would have walked into this team with his eyes closed. This is why we have to resort t specialists.

I don't like Shadab because he is a Misbah product but he's much better pick than Faheem and Khushdil.

yeah that is why i said in a worst case scenario we can pick him because Faheem and Khushdil are just wasting 2 spots in pak team nothing else...

Pata nahi konsi parchi hai in dono k pas!

 

[Hyder]

But you should be happy at least pak got rid full tosser shadab and usama atleast abrar is a proper spinner pitches in pak are road so atleast he is containing batsmen i know you want to have sufiyan sajid trust me sajid would have gone for plenty sajid even goes for lot of runs in spin pitches.

Usama mir wont do any worse than abrar on these pitches
Abrar just doesnt look like taking wickets

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan ahs made a blunder by picking Faheem/hasnain instead of a proper spinner. We are 1 spinner short in the event and things are gonna go worse as soon as the event starts. We have nowhere left to go then.

 

[Nasty Naz]

They have selected one specialist spinner in the squad but should have selected another one for sure.

Personally, I feel like lack of allrounders is the biggest reason for odd selections & imbalance on this team. You have your 3 pacers that are sure to play no matter what (Shaheen/Naseem/Rauf) and one specialist spinner in Abrar. Now, unless its an absolute turning track you are likely not going to drop one of those pacers to select another specialist spinner and it means going with a pace allrounder that are kinda just average in all honesty. Considering they have mostly just OK batsmen, going with only 6 batsmen & 5 proper bowlers leave you far too thin on the batting side.

For a while Pakistan had spin allrounders in Imad/Shadab/Nawaz who helped close off some of that imbalance because of weak pace allrounders that Pakistan have had since Razzaq but Shadab/Nawaz bowling have dropped drastically in recent times. Nowadays, you look at the team and nearly all the players are one dimensional while you see teams like NZ having the ability to legitimately use 7 while maintaining batting depth. It's a huge bonus that Pakistan simply do not have. This entire run of ODI's Pakistan have played recently, it was all 4 bowlers + part timers (Salman & Saim) and after losing Saim, the bowling options were depleted even further and hence, you couldn't simply replace the opener with another bowler because more bowling options were required.

I think the coach/selectors likely wanted more left handers in the lineup too as Pakistan lineup is always mostly right handed and one dimensional. It all just comes back to lack of options and some of the intriguing players they do have like Minhas are really young and generally teams prefer experienced players for tournaments.

Selectors did themselves no favour though. While the fans would have complained about any squad selected but if simple moves like Shadab being selected over Faheem & selecting another opener over one of Saud/KG/Tayyab who are similar types of players, they could have saved themselves a lot of headache. At the end of the day, it's a middling team that has to click on all cylinders to be good and that's not something that happens often.

 

[Marooned]

Abrar deserves more time.

This is our problem as fans. We want everyone out the moment they have a bad game. That's not how teams are built.

Abrar is bowling too quick rn. That's what he needs to fix. He will come good.

 

[Justcrazy]

They have selected one specialist spinner in the squad but should have selected another one for sure.

Personally, I feel like lack of allrounders is the biggest reason for odd selections & imbalance on this team. You have your 3 pacers that are sure to play no matter what (Shaheen/Naseem/Rauf) and one specialist spinner in Abrar. Now, unless its an absolute turning track you are likely not going to drop one of those pacers to select another specialist spinner and it means going with a pace allrounder that are kinda just average in all honesty. Considering they have mostly just OK batsmen, going with only 6 batsmen & 5 proper bowlers leave you far too thin on the batting side.

For a while Pakistan had spin allrounders in Imad/Shadab/Nawaz who helped close off some of that imbalance because of weak pace allrounders that Pakistan have had since Razzaq but Shadab/Nawaz bowling have dropped drastically in recent times. Nowadays, you look at the team and nearly all the players are one dimensional while you see teams like NZ having the ability to legitimately use 7 while maintaining batting depth. It's a huge bonus that Pakistan simply do not have. This entire run of ODI's Pakistan have played recently, it was all 4 bowlers + part timers (Salman & Saim) and after losing Saim, the bowling options were depleted even further and hence, you couldn't simply replace the opener with another bowler because more bowling options were required.

I think the coach/selectors likely wanted more left handers in the lineup too as Pakistan lineup is always mostly right handed and one dimensional. It all just comes back to lack of options and some of the intriguing players they do have like Minhas are really young and generally teams prefer experienced players for tournaments.

Selectors did themselves no favour though. While the fans would have complained about any squad selected but if simple moves like Shadab being selected over Faheem & selecting another opener over one of Saud/KG/Tayyab who are similar types of players, they could have saved themselves a lot of headache. At the end of the day, it's a middling team that has to click on all cylinders to be good and that's not something that happens often.

I agree with you. But Pakistan need to find a way out of this.

Fakhar , Saim , Saud should have been told to improve bowling , so that they can bowl 3 - 4 overs a game.

Three pacers are a must , why not improve there batting a bit. I understand that this is not 100 % effective , but will improve the results a little bit.

 

[Justcrazy]

Abrar deserves more time.

This is our problem as fans. We want everyone out the moment they have a bad game. That's not how teams are built.

Abrar is bowling too quick rn. That's what he needs to fix. He will come good.

He will be hammered , he is not a conventional spinner. His days are over.

 

[RidiculousMan]

There is no complete spinner in Pakistan for ODis , we have tried East West everybody

Usama Mir, Zahid Mehmood, Sufyan, Abrar

The bits & pieces

Imad, Nawaz, Shadab, Ifti, Khusdil,

Our fans talk as if Warne and Murli are waiting at home for a chance.

 

[RidiculousMan]

Abrar deserves more time.

This is our problem as fans. We want everyone out the moment they have a bad game. That's not how teams are built.

Abrar is bowling too quick rn. That's what he needs to fix. He will come good.

Most sensible post in this thread

 

[Energy]

I'm assuming the choice was between Shadab, Abrar and Usama. Abrar is the most suitable amongst them.

 

[Farabi]

Pakistan’s downfall is a case of analysis paralysis—overthinking.

It’s fitting that New Zealand's off-spinners, GlennP and M Bracewell, along with left-arm orthodox Santner, dominated Pakistan twice on pitches where the Champions Trophy will be held.

I won’t name names—every chaiwala, truck driver, and plumber knows who the two best Pakistani spinners are, one an off-spinner and the other a slow left-arm bowler.

Yet, we failed to gamble and take a chance on the right horses.
We will continue to see essays by people like
@Major , arguing that only wrist spinners and mystery bowlers thrive in white ball.

The irony is unmistakable.

 

[sweep_shot]

Pakistan’s downfall is a case of analysis paralysis—overthinking.

It’s fitting that New Zealand's off-spinners, GlennP and M Bracewell, along with left-arm orthodox Santner, dominated Pakistan twice on pitches where the Champions Trophy will be held.

I won’t name names—every chaiwala, truck driver, and plumber knows who the two best Pakistani spinners are, one an off-spinner and the other a slow left-arm bowler.

Yet, we failed to gamble and take a chance on the right horses.
We will continue to see essays by people like
@Major , arguing that only wrist spinners and mystery bowlers thrive in white ball.

The irony is unmistakable.

Sajid and Noman should play ODI. I agree.

 

[Farabi]

Sajid and Noman should play ODI. I agree.

Their batting is also not any worse than Faheem and Khusdil, who are frankly pathetic. Nauman and Sajid actually bat decently against spin. They would have added so much balance to this side.

 

[sweep_shot]

Their batting is also not any worse than Faheem and Khusdil, who are frankly pathetic. Nauman and Sajid actually bat decently against spin. They would have added so much balance to this side.

Sajid can hit big. Noman can bat too.

Agree fully.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Pakistan’s downfall is a case of analysis paralysis—overthinking.

It’s fitting that New Zealand's off-spinners, GlennP and M Bracewell, along with left-arm orthodox Santner, dominated Pakistan twice on pitches where the Champions Trophy will be held.

I won’t name names—every chaiwala, truck driver, and plumber knows who the two best Pakistani spinners are, one an off-spinner and the other a slow left-arm bowler.

Yet, we failed to gamble and take a chance on the right horses.
We will continue to see essays by people like
@Major , arguing that only wrist spinners and mystery bowlers thrive in white ball.

The irony is unmistakable.

There is a reason why Nathan Lyon is not a viable spin choice for Australia. He is like gazillion better than either of the spinners you have mentioned. Same reason why Prabath Jayasuriya is not a one day bowler but Theekshana is. Same reason why Taijul Islam is not the spin choice for bangladesh. Ashwin who has the highest wickets in world T20 history for India couldnt' find a spot in 2024 world T20 squad. People know how to massacre these under prepared specialists in LOIs. Heck even on those turning tracks Sajid was going at 4.20 an over (since turning tracks were implemented)

 

[Farabi]

There is a reason why Nathan Lyon is not a viable spin choice for Australia. He is like gazillion better than either of the spinners you have mentioned. Same reason why Prabath Jayasuriya is not a one day bowler but Theekshana is. Same reason why Taijul Islam is not the spin choice for bangladesh. Ashwin who has the highest wickets in world T20 history for India couldnt' find a spot in 2024 world T20 squad. People know how to massacre these under prepared specialists in LOIs. Heck even on those turning tracks Sajid was going at 4.20 an over (since turning tracks were implemented)

If we’re already getting “massacred”, why not try better spin options instead of gambling on players like Khushdil and Faheem A?
Ashwin and Lyon were given many chances, so why not give quality spinners a chance?

M Bracewell has shown off-spinners can succeed, and Glenn Phillips is doing fine. India’s bringing in W Sundar, and left-arm spinners are thriving too.

Sri Lanka has plenty of spin options, but we’re still stuck. P Jayasuriya has still played 2 ODIs, but these 2 haven’t played a single one!

 

[jnaveen1980]

If we’re already getting “massacred”, why not try better spin options instead of gambling on players like Khushdil and Faheem A?
Ashwin and Lyon were given many chances, so why not give quality spinners a chance?

M Bracewell has shown off-spinners can succeed, and Glenn Phillips is doing fine. India’s bringing in W Sundar, and left-arm spinners are thriving too.

Sri Lanka has plenty of spin options, but we’re still stuck. P Jayasuriya has still played 2 ODIs, but these 2 haven’t played a single one!

The thing is PHilips bowling is a bonus. Bracewell is a semi all rounder. He has a couple of ODI centuries. You think PHilips would have played but for his batting/fielding? Not a chance. Ajaz patel is NZ's frontline spinner not Santner in Tests. Unless they are significantly good batsmen and outstanding in any short format T20Is/T20s or LIst As it will be a massive gamble.

 

[Major]

Pakistan’s downfall is a case of analysis paralysis—overthinking.

It’s fitting that New Zealand's off-spinners, GlennP and M Bracewell, along with left-arm orthodox Santner, dominated Pakistan twice on pitches where the Champions Trophy will be held.

I won’t name names—every chaiwala, truck driver, and plumber knows who the two best Pakistani spinners are, one an off-spinner and the other a slow left-arm bowler.

Yet, we failed to gamble and take a chance on the right horses.
We will continue to see essays by people like
@Major , arguing that only wrist spinners and mystery bowlers thrive in white ball.

The irony is unmistakable.

Sajid and nouman are not proper bowlers for odi cricket.

For gods sake look st Sajids List A avg and wixkets

 

[RyanRyan10]

Give Abrar a full tournament before writing him off

 

[Savak]

Give Abrar a full tournament before writing him off

Abrar has had many chances now. He's played full test matches for Pakistan. Look at his bowling statistics after his debut first innings. He's been out bowled by Nauman, Sajid on the most spin friendly bowling conditions. He doesn't get edges, he doesn't get lbws, he consistently bowls at a slow pace.

The guy is very over rated and the only mystery about him is his consistent selection and backing.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Abrar has had many chances now. He's played full test matches for Pakistan. Look at his bowling statistics after his debut first innings. He's been out bowled by Nauman, Sajid on the most spin friendly bowling conditions. He doesn't get edges, he doesn't get lbws, he consistently bowls at a slow pace.

The guy is very over rated and the only mystery about him is his consistent selection and backing.

He has been poor in tests but has done well in the limited opportunities he has received in the limited formats. The thread is about ODIs.

 

[Farabi]

The thing is PHilips bowling is a bonus. Bracewell is a semi all rounder. He has a couple of ODI centuries. You think PHilips would have played but for his batting/fielding? Not a chance. Ajaz patel is NZ's frontline spinner not Santner in Tests. Unless they are significantly good batsmen and outstanding in any short format T20Is/T20s or LIst As it will be a massive gamble.

Sajid and nouman are not proper bowlers for odi cricket.

For gods sake look st Sajids List A avg and wixkets

Let’s debunk several of these myths one by one.

1. The initial arguments by @Major bowling type Off spinners and Left Arm Orthodox don’t have a role in ODIs.

Obviously a rubbish argument. The data clearly shows that off spinners and specially left arm orthodox have a role today in white ball if they have the chops.


2. NZ spinners are all rounders and offer something with the bat but Sajid/Nauman don’t.

Sajid Khan’s list A batting average is 27 and Nauman’s is 15. This is comparable to W Sundar, Santner, Maharaj. Also, how much batting are Khusdil and F Ashraf giving you? Clearly, not much more and that was their competition.


3. The new argument brought forward by @Major that Sajid and Nauman are not good ODI bowlers because of their List A stats.

Bowling List A average of some Off Spinners and Left Arm Orthdox bowlers:
M Santner 34
Sajid Khan 37
Nauman Ali 29
K Maharaj 30
Axar 30
Bracewell 35
W Sundar 31
G Philips 42
R Jadeja 34

We can keep churning. Just don’t waste time here. 1 of Sajid or Nauman was an obvious choice in this team.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Let’s debunk several of these myths one by one.

1. The initial arguments by @Major bowling type Off spinners and Left Arm Orthodox don’t have a role in ODIs.

Obviously a rubbish argument. The data clearly shows that off spinners and specially left arm orthodox have a role today in white ball if they have the chops.


2. NZ spinners are all rounders and offer something with the bat but Sajid/Nauman don’t.

Sajid Khan’s list A batting average is 27 and Nauman’s is 15. This is comparable to W Sundar, Santner, Maharaj. Also, how much batting are Khusdil and F Ashraf giving you? Clearly, not much more and that was their competition.


3. The new argument brought forward by @Major that Sajid and Nauman are not good ODI bowlers because of their List A stats.

Bowling List A average of some Off Spinners and Left Arm Orthdox bowlers:
M Santner 34
Sajid Khan 37
Nauman Ali 29
K Maharaj 30
Axar 30
Bracewell 35
W Sundar 31
G Philips 42
R Jadeja 34

We can keep churning. Just don’t waste time here. 1 of Sajid or Nauman was an obvious choice in this team.

I have seen Sajid Khan bat. He is nowhere close to NZ all-rounders like Philips and Rachin. About Santner, he can be a rank tailender and still play for NZ. He is that good a defensive LOI bowler that can adapt to various surfaces across the world. His batting and fielding is a bonus. Sajid Khan doesn't fall under any category. Never proved to be an X factor with balls like Rashid Khan, Samuel Badri, et al at any level. Simply using Cricinfo stats will not reveal anything. He is extremely limited. Can easily be shut down at the international level. He is no Hafeez, Malik, or Afridi. He is no Saqlain either.

Your literal List A comparison with other bowlers from other countries without factoring in what kind of pitches they played on, at what age they played, and what kind of opponents they played against will give you a false picture. Also, India doesn't pick players using List A stats. Axar, and Sundar all came into the side through IPL. Sundar made his test debut at the Gabba without having much first-class experience proved to be the deciding factor in winning the Test. He had a higher ceiling even as an under-19 player. Axar came into the side through IPL. He improved his batting significantly. Then he became a regular for the ODI side.

Other than Cricinfo stats (At least a couple of dozen Indians may have better List A stats than Jadeja/Axar) you need to see them do something at the top level in LOI format.

If your lineup is Naseem Shah, SHaheen, Haris, Nauman, and Sajid batting from 7 to 11 that is like 5 lower order batsmen who could all get out in 3 or 4 overs on a given day. As it is Pakistan has a poor batting line up. If anything they have to focus on strengthening their batting.

 

[moghul]

This is the most ridiculous team selection i have seen for a long time . Aqib is just trying to be different for the sake of it and at the cost of Pakistan cricket. First he got overboard with spinning track for tests and ended up at the bottom after losing even to WI and now on the other extreme in CT. Almost no genuine spinner in the team .

 

[jnaveen1980]

This is the most ridiculous team selection i have seen for a long time . Aqib is just trying to be different for the sake of it and at the cost of Pakistan cricket. First he got overboard with spinning track for tests and ended up at the bottom after losing even to WI and now on the other extreme in CT. Almost no genuine spinner in the team .

I don't think Pakistan has quality spinners like Afghanistan.

 

[moghul]

I don't think Pakistan has quality spinners like Afghanistan.

No need to bring Afghanistan in every conversation , I'm talking about whatever good spinners we have available. Anyone of them would have been better than this pathetic player Faheem Ashraf . Any one of Osama, Muqim, Sajid Khan , Noman would have been better.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Hot take: Zafar Gohar is the best spinner Pakistan has produced for the past decade and I'll die on this hill lol.

 

[jnaveen1980]

No need to bring Afghanistan in every conversation , I'm talking about whatever good spinners we have available. Anyone of them would have been better than this pathetic player Faheem Ashraf . Any one of Osama, Muqim, Sajid Khan , Noman would have been better.

Have these guys done well in any T20 leagues to support your claim? I mean for long periods. It is a hot-hand fallacy. These guys did well on turning tracks (after not making an impression for so long on true wickets) and will suddenly be the best on true wickets in a shorter format.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan is not reluctant to play proper spinner. It is actually the reluctance to play the guys who deserve the most. From which angle Khushdil deserved a chance???

 

[Justcrazy]

I have seen Sajid Khan bat. He is nowhere close to NZ all-rounders like Philips and Rachin. About Santner, he can be a rank tailender and still play for NZ. He is that good a defensive LOI bowler that can adapt to various surfaces across the world. His batting and fielding is a bonus. Sajid Khan doesn't fall under any category. Never proved to be an X factor with balls like Rashid Khan, Samuel Badri, et al at any level. Simply using Cricinfo stats will not reveal anything. He is extremely limited. Can easily be shut down at the international level. He is no Hafeez, Malik, or Afridi. He is no Saqlain either.

Your literal List A comparison with other bowlers from other countries without factoring in what kind of pitches they played on, at what age they played, and what kind of opponents they played against will give you a false picture. Also, India doesn't pick players using List A stats. Axar, and Sundar all came into the side through IPL. Sundar made his test debut at the Gabba without having much first-class experience proved to be the deciding factor in winning the Test. He had a higher ceiling even as an under-19 player. Axar came into the side through IPL. He improved his batting significantly. Then he became a regular for the ODI side.

Other than Cricinfo stats (At least a couple of dozen Indians may have better List A stats than Jadeja/Axar) you need to see them do something at the top level in LOI format.

If your lineup is Naseem Shah, SHaheen, Haris, Nauman, and Sajid batting from 7 to 11 that is like 5 lower order batsmen who could all get out in 3 or 4 overs on a given day. As it is Pakistan has a poor batting line up. If anything they have to focus on strengthening their batting.

The last point you made regarding 7 to 11 is right. But if suppose they do not play sajid and Noman , still with 3 pacers and abrar the batting becomes thin.

Now , if you play Khusdil that also is not adding to batting much , because he clearly is a slogger , not a competent bat like Axar , Sundar or Glen .

Pakistan has this issue , because they have not experimented with different players in different situations , against weaker oppositions.

They could have tried to develop fakhar , saud etc into part time bowlers , but did not pay attention.

Now they are in a big mess , because Usama , Shadab , Nawaz etc are not in there radar , and Imad also not playing.

 

[Farabi]

I have seen Sajid Khan bat. He is nowhere close to NZ all-rounders like Philips and Rachin. About Santner, he can be a rank tailender and still play for NZ. He is that good a defensive LOI bowler that can adapt to various surfaces across the world. His batting and fielding is a bonus. Sajid Khan doesn't fall under any category. Never proved to be an X factor with balls like Rashid Khan, Samuel Badri, et al at any level. Simply using Cricinfo stats will not reveal anything. He is extremely limited. Can easily be shut down at the international level. He is no Hafeez, Malik, or Afridi. He is no Saqlain either.

Your literal List A comparison with other bowlers from other countries without factoring in what kind of pitches they played on, at what age they played, and what kind of opponents they played against will give you a false picture. Also, India doesn't pick players using List A stats. Axar, and Sundar all came into the side through IPL. Sundar made his test debut at the Gabba without having much first-class experience proved to be the deciding factor in winning the Test. He had a higher ceiling even as an under-19 player. Axar came into the side through IPL. He improved his batting significantly. Then he became a regular for the ODI side.

Other than Cricinfo stats (At least a couple of dozen Indians may have better List A stats than Jadeja/Axar) you need to see them do something at the top level in LOI format.

If your lineup is Naseem Shah, SHaheen, Haris, Nauman, and Sajid batting from 7 to 11 that is like 5 lower order batsmen who could all get out in 3 or 4 overs on a given day. As it is Pakistan has a poor batting line up. If anything they have to focus on strengthening their batting.

You’re writing absolute essays but still missing the point. There is no sane world in which a team willingly gambles on F Ashraf and Khusdil Shah over Nauman Ali and Sajid Khan. It’s literally a waste of everyone’s time.

 

[Farabi]

No need to bring Afghanistan in every conversation , I'm talking about whatever good spinners we have available. Any one of them would have been better than this pathetic player Faheem Ashraf . Any one of Osama, Muqim, Sajid Khan , Noman would have been better.

Exactly. @jnaveen1980 and @Major are writing novels on why not to gamble on Sajid or Nauman, but say nothing about the trash currently at display in the name of spin bowling. NZ and SA batters were licking their lips.
We know sajid and nauman aren’t a silver bullet either, but at least there is/was hope there that their bowling might come good.
Then they say Agha is already an off spinner, but he doesn’t touch the ball when Sajid K is playing. This says everything you need to know about these bogus arguments.

 

[Farabi]

The last point you made regarding 7 to 11 is right. But if suppose they do not play sajid and Noman , still with 3 pacers and abrar the batting becomes thin.

Now , if you play Khusdil that also is not adding to batting much , because he clearly is a slogger , not a competent bat like Axar , Sundar or Glen .

Pakistan has this issue , because they have not experimented with different players in different situations , against weaker oppositions.

They could have tried to develop fakhar , saud etc into part time bowlers , but did not pay attention.

Now they are in a big mess , because Usama , Shadab , Nawaz etc are not in there radar , and Imad also not playing.

Exactly. They will never. Repeat. Never learn to reason around real trade-offs.
First, no one said Sajid and Nauman Both should play in the 11. @jnaveen1980 just slipped that one in.
Second, I can bet my arm and a leg that Sajid/Nauman’s batting is better than Faheem/Khusdil’s.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You’re writing absolute essays but still missing the point. There is no sane world in which a team willingly gambles on F Ashraf and Khusdil Shah over Nauman Ali and Sajid Khan. It’s literally a waste of everyone’s time.

I am not speaking for their inclusion. I am just telling where PCB is coming from. They probably can go with specialist batsmen who can bowl a few overs. Pakistan has no spinners like Rashid khan, Kuldeep yadav, zampa. They will just need some filler overs. i remember Imad wasim opening the bowling in 2017 CT. None of the spinners Pak had were world class. Shadab, Hafeez, Malik.

 

[Justcrazy]

Exactly. They will never. Repeat. Never learn to reason around real trade-offs.
First, no one said Sajid and Nauman Both should play in the 11. @jnaveen1980 just slipped that one in.
Second, I can bet my arm and a leg that Sajid/Nauman’s batting is better than Faheem/Khusdil’s.

On Paper Khushdil and Faheem are better batter , but when it comes to match situations both have failed. They just do not give confidence when chasing like Axar , Sundar , Santher etc give.

I think in the Tri series , Pakistan could have tried Sajid or Noman , who ever looks better with bat in the nets for couple of games. Pakistan wasted the Tri Series where they stuck to same batting order.

 

[Farabi]

I am not speaking for their inclusion. I am just telling where PCB is coming from. They probably can go with specialist batsmen who can bowl a few overs. Pakistan has no spinners like Rashid khan, Kuldeep yadav, zampa. They will just need some filler overs. i remember Imad wasim opening the bowling in 2017 CT. None of the spinners Pak had were world class. Shadab, Hafeez, Malik.

Precisely my point.

Here’s what it could have been

5 batters
No6: Agha Salman
No7: Sajid instead of Khusdil S
No8: Nauman Ali instead of Abrar Ahmed
3 pacers

With this combo, Sajid and Nauman together offer as much with the bat as Abrar and Khusdil do as a combo. So you hardly lose much batting wise.

Pakistan now has quality 20 overs of spin + 10 overs from Agha. And still has 30 overs of pace. Sounds like a REAL bowling unit on UAE/Pakistani pitches.

 

[Farabi]

On Paper Khushdil and Faheem are better batter , but when it comes to match situations both have failed. They just do not give confidence when chasing like Axar , Sundar , Santher etc give.

I think in the Tri series , Pakistan could have tried Sajid or Noman , who ever looks better with bat in the nets for couple of games. Pakistan wasted the Tri Series where they stuck to same batting order.

Yup. Either way it was a gamble. It’s about who you wanted to gamble on.
I would have gambled on Sajid and Nauman Ali, because they have proven some mettle at test level. Faheem A and Khusdil are nothing players who can never win Pakistan a test match in their dreams.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Precisely my point.

Here’s what it could have been

5 batters
No6: Agha Salman
No7: Sajid instead of Khusdil S
No8: Nauman Ali instead of Abrar Ahmed
3 pacers

With this combo, Sajid and Nauman together offer as much with the bat as Abrar and Khusdil do as a combo. So you hardly lose much batting wise.

Pakistan now has quality 20 overs of spin + 10 overs from Agha. And still has 30 overs of pace. Sounds like a REAL bowling unit on UAE/Pakistani pitches.

basically you want to replace a mediocre structure with another mediocre strucutre. Tail is long in both cases. Given the form and fickle nature of Pakistan batting you are looking at sub 200 total mostly. 20 quality overs is pure imagination given that one is 38 years old and another one is 32 years old. If they are that good they would have done something at some level. Until these under prepared pitches were rolled out they were nobodies.

 

[khyberlion]

I have seen Sajid Khan bat. He is nowhere close to NZ all-rounders like Philips and Rachin. About Santner, he can be a rank tailender and still play for NZ. He is that good a defensive LOI bowler that can adapt to various surfaces across the world. His batting and fielding is a bonus. Sajid Khan doesn't fall under any category. Never proved to be an X factor with balls like Rashid Khan, Samuel Badri, et al at any level. Simply using Cricinfo stats will not reveal anything. He is extremely limited. Can easily be shut down at the international level. He is no Hafeez, Malik, or Afridi. He is no Saqlain either.

Your literal List A comparison with other bowlers from other countries without factoring in what kind of pitches they played on, at what age they played, and what kind of opponents they played against will give you a false picture. Also, India doesn't pick players using List A stats. Axar, and Sundar all came into the side through IPL. Sundar made his test debut at the Gabba without having much first-class experience proved to be the deciding factor in winning the Test. He had a higher ceiling even as an under-19 player. Axar came into the side through IPL. He improved his batting significantly. Then he became a regular for the ODI side.

Other than Cricinfo stats (At least a couple of dozen Indians may have better List A stats than Jadeja/Axar) you need to see them do something at the top level in LOI format.

If your lineup is Naseem Shah, SHaheen, Haris, Nauman, and Sajid batting from 7 to 11 that is like 5 lower order batsmen who could all get out in 3 or 4 overs on a given day. As it is Pakistan has a poor batting line up. If anything they have to focus on strengthening their batting.

We already have a long tail and with Sajid and Nauman it will make it even longer. Both are decent no 9s at best. Nothing more. Sajid and Nauman don't even get picked in domestic teams for List A. They have performed on custom made pitches and now people think they are a must.

 

[Justcrazy]

Yup. Either way it was a gamble. It’s about who you wanted to gamble on.
I would have gambled on Sajid and Nauman Ali, because they have proven some mettle at test level. Faheem A and Khusdil are nothing players who can never win Pakistan a test match in their dreams.

I think with Noman and Sajid in the side , the bowling would have been more potent. If you have proper conventional wicket taking spinners in middle , even smaller totals can be made challenging.

 

[Justcrazy]

basically you want to replace a mediocre structure with another mediocre strucutre. Tail is long in both cases. Given the form and fickle nature of Pakistan batting you are looking at sub 200 total mostly. 20 quality overs is pure imagination given that one is 38 years old and another one is 32 years old. If they are that good they would have done something at some level. Until these under prepared pitches were rolled out they were nobodies.

To be blunt honest , you have to sacrifice either batting or bowling. Pakistan do not have allrounders like Stokes or Pandya or jadeja in Pakistan.

 

[jnaveen1980]

To be blunt honest , you have to sacrifice either batting or bowling. Pakistan do not have allrounders like Stokes or Pandya or jadeja in Pakistan.

Problem is assumption that these two guys as some sort of LOI wizards. They might do worse than them in all honesty. You never know. Then you are left with 5 tailenders and a fragile top/middle order. Only guys like Zampa, Theekshana, Shamsi, Kuldeep, Adil Rashid are played purely as bowlers. If you notice this list 4 of them are wrist spinners. Pakistan has no wrist spinners in their arsenal. Just finger spinners. Theekshana although an offie has more tricks up his sleeves. Almost all finger spinners are either batting all rounders (Maxwell, Markram, PHilips..) or bowling all rounders (Jadeja, Axar, Santner, Bracewell..). Maharaja may be an exception. But he is used selectively in some safe period of the innings.

 

[Justcrazy]

Problem is assumption that these two guys as some sort of LOI wizards. They might do worse than them in all honesty. You never know. Then you are left with 5 tailenders and a fragile top/middle order. Only guys like Zampa, Theekshana, Shamsi, Kuldeep, Adil Rashid are played purely as bowlers. If you notice this list 4 of them are wrist spinners. Pakistan has no wrist spinners in their arsenal. Just finger spinners. Theekshana although an offie has more tricks up his sleeves. Almost all finger spinners are either batting all rounders (Maxwell, Markram, PHilips..) or bowling all rounders (Jadeja, Axar, Santner, Bracewell..). Maharaja may be an exception. But he is used selectively in some safe period of the innings.

The main point is that Pakistan cannot balance the XI with this squad.

Best option is to rely upon Aga Salman , Kamran , Khusdil and Faheem for 20 overs , and play 3 genuine bowlers.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The main point is that Pakistan cannot balance the XI with this squad.

Best option is to rely upon Aga Salman , Kamran , Khusdil and Faheem for 20 overs , and play 3 genuine bowlers.

Yes it is very hard to balance their squad. If i were them i would stack up the batting line up. Bowlers will be thrashed around anyway. They don't have X factor bowlers. They should use Saud and Salman for 10 overs. one specialist spinner. Their specialist spinners are only specialists on paper. They are much closer to part timers than specialists. THey probably could have gone with someone like Shadab. I say like Shadab. Not shadab. Another thing is all 3 fast bowlers from Pakistan are susceptible to injury. They can break down any time. You will need filler overs then. That is probably why Faheem is on.

 

[Major]

Exactly. @jnaveen1980 and @Major are writing novels on why not to gamble on Sajid or Nauman, but say nothing about the trash currently at display in the name of spin bowling. NZ and SA batters were licking their lips.
We know sajid and nauman aren’t a silver bullet either, but at least there is/was hope there that their bowling might come good.
Then they say Agha is already an off spinner, but he doesn’t touch the ball when Sajid K is playing. This says everything you need to know about these bogus arguments.

If you were able to understand those novels you still wont be stuck with the same thing.

As always, new fans thinking that the guy who wasnt selected was the best option but not knowing why he wasnt selected.

 

[Farabi]

If you were able to understand those novels you still wont be stuck with the same thing.

As always, new fans thinking that the guy who wasnt selected was the best option but not knowing why he wasnt selected.

Now let’s not get presumptive. I am watching cricket since late 90s.

 

[Farabi]

We already have a long tail and with Sajid and Nauman it will make it even longer. Both are decent no 9s at best. Nothing more. Sajid and Nauman don't even get picked in domestic teams for List A. They have performed on custom made pitches and now people think they are a must.

Are you saying Faheem and Khusdil as a combo offer more with the bat?

 

[Farabi]

Problem is assumption that these two guys as some sort of LOI wizards. They might do worse than them in all honesty. You never know. Then you are left with 5 tailenders and a fragile top/middle order. Only guys like Zampa, Theekshana, Shamsi, Kuldeep, Adil Rashid are played purely as bowlers. If you notice this list 4 of them are wrist spinners. Pakistan has no wrist spinners in their arsenal. Just finger spinners. Theekshana although an offie has more tricks up his sleeves. Almost all finger spinners are either batting all rounders (Maxwell, Markram, PHilips..) or bowling all rounders (Jadeja, Axar, Santner, Bracewell..). Maharaja may be an exception. But he is used selectively in some safe period of the innings.

Yes, you yourself said “Maharaj is an exception”. He’s pretty effective. Why can’t Nauman Ali do that role for us?

 

[Farabi]

I think with Noman and Sajid in the side , the bowling would have been more potent. If you have proper conventional wicket taking spinners in middle , even smaller totals can be made challenging.

This is the cricketing brains that are usually missing. We are getting one tracked analysis from @khyberlion @Major and @jnaveen1980
Instead of theoretical analysis, look at the alternatives. Khusdil Shah, Faheem Ashraf and Abrar are not second coming of Kallis.
If we replaced them with Sajid and Nauman, we don’t lose much on the batting tail, but we gain a lot in bowling where we can apply the squeeze on the opposition teams in the middle and defend smaller totals.
current strategy is negative as you’re trying to extend tail with nothing players Khusdil, Faheem Ashraf and you’re getting mediocre spin bowling.

 

[Farabi]

basically you want to replace a mediocre structure with another mediocre strucutre. Tail is long in both cases. Given the form and fickle nature of Pakistan batting you are looking at sub 200 total mostly. 20 quality overs is pure imagination given that one is 38 years old and another one is 32 years old. If they are that good they would have done something at some level. Until these under prepared pitches were rolled out they were nobodies.

Yes. You don’t lose on batting but gain on the bowling.
Now you’re blaming age. Man common? lol Age doesn’t matter. Results matter. Spinners mature later anyway.

 

[Major]

Now let’s not get presumptive. I am watching cricket since late 90s.

if you are wathcing cricket since 90s and still dont understand spin bowling, than i dont need to say more.

 

[Major]

This is the cricketing brains that are usually missing. We are getting one tracked analysis from @khyberlion @Major and @jnaveen1980
Instead of theoretical analysis, look at the alternatives. Khusdil S, F Ashraf and Abrar are not second coming of Kallis.
If we replaced them with Sajid and Nauman, we don’t lose much on the batting tail, but we gain a lot in bowling where we can apply the squeeze on the opposition teams in the middle and defend smaller totals.
current strategy is negative as you’re trying to extend tail with nothing players Khusdil, F Ashraf and you’re getting mediocre spin bowling.

So you have issue with everyone giving you an Analysis, but you who has watched cricket since the 90s cant providde an analysis on Sajid khan or Noman Ali

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yes, you yourself said “Maharaj is an exception”. He’s pretty effective. Why can’t Nauman Ali do that role for us?

He was introduced to LOI format in his mid 20s. He is not getting his feet wet at the age of 38. He has gained substantial experience by playing franchisee leagues, international LOIs. He knows how to react to various situations when batsmen go after him. That is why i asked if they have done anything notable in this format at league level. List A stats can be massively skewed.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yes. You don’t lose on batting but gain on the bowling.
Now you’re blaming age. Man common? lol Age doesn’t matter. Results matter. Spinners mature later anyway.

If they are world class LOI spinners we would have known already. Have they played for shaheens any time? If they are not even considered good enough for that team how can you push them for main team? Wouldn't you want to Test them if they are good enough at some level? So far the only proof is their boat load of wickets on doctored pitches.

 

[jnaveen1980]

One of the biggest advantage for guys like LYon, Prabath is they don't play LOIs, leagues. Batmsen will get more familiar against you and start thrashing you even in Tests. Guys like Ashwin, Jadeja who have been playing IPL for 14 years played for various franchisees. Batsmen got used to them in the nets. It takes a sting out of your bowling when batsmen are more familiar. If these two guys get exposed at this level , Pakistan will lose the Test home advantage as well.

 

[khyberlion]

Are you saying Faheem and Khusdil as a combo offer more with the bat?

Both of them are far better batsmens then Sajid and Nauman. You can't be serious. Sajid Khan has 1 list A 50 and you want him at 7? Kushdil has multiple centuries. Are you saying both Sajid and Nauman are better batsmen?

 

[khyberlion]

This is the cricketing brains that are usually missing. We are getting one tracked analysis from @khyberlion @Major and @jnaveen1980
Instead of theoretical analysis, look at the alternatives. Khusdil Shah, Faheem Ashraf and Abrar are not second coming of Kallis.
If we replaced them with Sajid and Nauman, we don’t lose much on the batting tail, but we gain a lot in bowling where we can apply the squeeze on the opposition teams in the middle and defend smaller totals.
current strategy is negative as you’re trying to extend tail with nothing players Khusdil, Faheem Ashraf and you’re getting mediocre spin bowling.

If those guys are so good why do they never get picked for domestic teams for List A games?