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Searching for Pakistan's Middle Overs Magician: Spin Bowling Dilemma in the World Cup

Cricket Warrior said:
I dont think babar would be comfortable with the inclusion of Immad Wasim into the team.
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Indeed, but for the betterment of the team, they need to move on
One cannot ignore the way Imad is playing in the CPL
 
Cricket Warrior said:
yeah in t20 matches they both were not looking comfortable together, just a 1 hand shake and away!
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That’s besides the point, they got together and played happily for the country. Unless something else has happened, there is no reason to believe that their feud has reignited
 
If we can find 3 decent top order batsmen and 2 decent middle order batmens we probably wouldn't need a spinner who can bat abit
 
Enough of this BS of Babar will not be comfortable with the inclusion of X, Y, Z. This is the Pakistani team, not his baap ka team. He should be told the same.
 
Savak said:
Enough of this BS of Babar will not be comfortable with the inclusion of X, Y, Z. This is the Pakistani team, not his baap ka team. He should be told the same.
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Who told you that is the prime reason Imad is not being included?
Maybe him not having played an LA match in 16 months could be the reason.
I believe both Imad and Babar are professional enough to set their differences aside for Pak Cricket.

Imad would be an upgrade over Agha for no.5/6 spot.
 
shamaan said:
Abrar and Imad should be considered for the world Cup squad.
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Abrar is very likely to be in the team. Not sure, how effective he would be in the World Cup considering he has only played 12 List A matches till date.
 
hassan918 said:
Abrar is very likely to be in the team. Not sure, how effective he would be in the World Cup considering he has only played 12 List A matches till date.
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He doesn't bowl half trackers pluss he has some mystery.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Abrar is massively overrated on this forum
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to some extent yes. He is slow in the air

Plus, Pakistan cant have 3 leggies in the squad, and Usama Mir has done nothing wrong to be dropped.

Abrar can only come if we drop shadab and keep nawaz
 
Not picking abrar will be a huge mistake. He could be the Trump card because oppositions haven't played him yet. Remember what he did to England when they faced him in his first test.
He can have the Ajantha Mendis effect
 
Inzamam-ul-Haq speaking to the press:

Q: Considering the spin conditions of India, can you elaborate on the combination of the team you have selected?

IuH: Pakistan team has been playing with this combination for the past year. I did not want to tweak the combination a lot. We have kept Abrar [Ahmed] in the reserves, in case there is any need. I did not want to make too many changes. The three spinners [Shadab Khan, Usama Mir and Mohammad Nawaz] have been with the team and are good players. They need to work harder to be effective in the middle overs, as it is very important for the spinners to play their role in the middle overs.
 
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From what I know, an all rounder is someone who can bat AND bowl. In Pakistan's case, we have traditionally labelled players who excel at one department and perform average to decent in the other as all rounders. When did this definition change to players who can neither bat not bowl?

How many more decades do we need to snap out of the ballerina syndrome and select players based on stats, not on looks
Shadab Batting average - 26.21 Bowling average - 32.80
Nawaz Batting average - 18.05 Bowling average - 32.10
 
I think that Iftikhar should be given more overs to bowl and instead of having a spin all rounder, Saud Shakeel should be included in the team.

No need to have both Nawaz and Shadab in the playing XI, select any one of them.
 
why are we playing these fake allrounders and thinking that we got spinners playing in XI...shaddy is rubbish, the guy can't pitch the ball properly every other over he is bowling full tosses and half trackers while on the other hand, there is this pindi boy Nawaz...who just bowls straight... pakistan just needs to give chance to a proper spinner eg zafar gohar or abrar. who cares if he can score run one in 50 innings or not...look at the other teams there play proper spinners eg. sodhi, zampa,kuldeep,adil rasheed, teekshana or maharaj...why cant we play a specialist.

i don't rate mir that high if hope he gets 3 or 4 games in this wc so he gets exposed...pct is picking players on t20 performances these guys are used to giving 6 7 runs per over.

if you can't take a wicket then at least contain but our so called spinners can't even do that
 
If only we had a proper spinner we wouldn't be playing trundlers in India
 
Justcrazy said:
Pakistan do not want proper spinner , they want someone who can bat.

Even Bob Woolmer had same mindset , he used Afridi and Malik as his spinners , not selecting proper spin options.
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This is true and I remember these discussions at the time but shohaib Malik of 2000-2004 was as good as saqlain but could bat and was a tremendous fielder.

Afridi of 1996-2000 was almost as good as Mushtaq but could bat up the order.

In all instances the first thing that Woolmer would have considered is who can take wickets and be a containing/run making option. In almost every facet you can think of the Hafeez, saqlain, Afridi option was superior to the mushy-saqlain option (when you consider razzaq, Mahmood) as allrounders alongside fast bowlers.

Now the story is different. You need genuine wicket takers and there isn’t even one in this team so you have to go back to specialist 4 bowlers. At least a specialist spinner can be a containing/wicket taking option. Problem is the 3 bad balls- 3 good balls of our specialist spinners just doesn’t work right now.
 
Abid Z said:
This is true and I remember these discussions at the time but shohaib Malik of 2000-2004 was as good as saqlain but could bat and was a tremendous fielder.

Afridi of 1996-2000 was almost as good as Mushtaq but could bat up the order.

In all instances the first thing that Woolmer would have considered is who can take wickets and be a containing/run making option. In almost every facet you can think of the Hafeez, saqlain, Afridi option was superior to the mushy-saqlain option (when you consider razzaq, Mahmood) as allrounders alongside fast bowlers.

Now the story is different. You need genuine wicket takers and there isn’t even one in this team so you have to go back to specialist 4 bowlers. At least a specialist spinner can be a containing/wicket taking option. Problem is the 3 bad balls- 3 good balls of our specialist spinners just doesn’t work right now.
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In OD it was okay to have spin bowling all rounders , but one should have at least one specialist spinner in The squad.

Also , in Tests Bob did the same. First time pakistan lost in UAE was against Lanka , where Harris sohail picked a wickets , but Mickey refused to play a specialist spinner. How can you not play a specialist spinner in UAE , where Pakistan was unbeaten , with spinners dominating.
 
For God sakes for once please babar, just remove sheddy, use the concussion excuse, bring abrar in.

We have no spin 😭😭
 
asfandyar said:
From what I know, an all rounder is someone who can bat AND bowl. In Pakistan's case, we have traditionally labelled players who excel at one department and perform average to decent in the other as all rounders. When did this definition change to players who can neither bat not bowl?

How many more decades do we need to snap out of the ballerina syndrome and select players based on stats, not on looks
Shadab Batting average - 26.21 Bowling average - 32.80
Nawaz Batting average - 18.05 Bowling average - 32.10
Click to expand...
I think we have the opposite problem and we need to select players on big match performances and impact. Shadabs stats are decent but they are probably padded against small teams. Same with imam and same with Babar to an extent.

We need to select players that have what it takes to make impact under pressure. Guys like Abdullah and Shaheen were selected without stats on the eye test.
 
zarak said:
I think we have the opposite problem and we need to select players on big match performances and impact. Shadabs stats are decent but they are probably padded against small teams. Same with imam and same with Babar to an extent.

We need to select players that have what it takes to make impact under pressure. Guys like Abdullah and Shaheen were selected without stats on the eye test.
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That's the norm in Pakistan. Indians, on the other hand, prioritize data and then shortlist using the eye test. Abdullah was already excelling in FC and doing ok in T20s, and I hope he does not replicate his List A performance in ODIs. Here are two excerpts on Shaheen's debut from articles on various websites:

www.icc-cricket.com

Cricket News | ICC

Official source of ICC Cricket news, highlights, match reports, commentary, live scores, fixtures, videos and photos. Top stories, team rankings and more.
www.icc-cricket.com www.icc-cricket.com
Afridi, Pakistan's highest wicket-taker in the ICC Under 19 Cricket World Cup 2018 in New Zealand, was blooded into the T20I squad during the home series against the Windies and will now potentially make his ODI debut as well.
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www.espncricinfo.com

Uncapped Shaheen Afridi, Saad Ali in Pakistan squad for NZ tests

Mohammad Amir was left out again, while Fakhar Zaman and Shadab Khan were rested for the first two Tests against New Zealand
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com
In all, Afridi has played only two first-class games, taking 11 wickets at an average of 17.27. He was in excellent form, though, in the ODIs against New Zealand, claiming back-to-back four-wicket hauls.
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asfandyar said:
That's the norm in Pakistan. Indians, on the other hand, prioritize data and then shortlist using the eye test. Abdullah was already excelling in FC and doing ok in T20s, and I hope he does not replicate his List A performance in ODIs. Here are two excerpts on Shaheen's debut from articles on various websites:

www.icc-cricket.com

Cricket News | ICC

Official source of ICC Cricket news, highlights, match reports, commentary, live scores, fixtures, videos and photos. Top stories, team rankings and more.
www.icc-cricket.com www.icc-cricket.com


www.espncricinfo.com

Uncapped Shaheen Afridi, Saad Ali in Pakistan squad for NZ tests

Mohammad Amir was left out again, while Fakhar Zaman and Shadab Khan were rested for the first two Tests against New Zealand
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com
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Brother I don't get your point regarding Abdullah and Shaheen. Are you saying they were selected on stats?

Both played only two first-class games before being selected. Shaheen was selected based on the u19 world cup and his first two first class games. When Abdullah Shafique made his test debut he had played 1-2 firstclass games. Both selections were not stat based and both turned out to be good.

Stats work well when the system is good. For example when first class cricket in Pakistan was being played on green tops, Hammad Azam had the best bowling average, however he is hardly a club level bowler. In my opinion the eye test works well in Pakistan but I do agree that stats are useful when the structure is good can be useful.
 
zarak said:
Brother I don't get your point regarding Abdullah and Shaheen. Are you saying they were selected on stats?

Both played only two first-class games before being selected. Shaheen was selected based on the u19 world cup and his first two first class games. When Abdullah Shafique made his test debut he had played 1-2 firstclass games. Both selections were not stat based and both turned out to be good.

Stats work well when the system is good. For example when first class cricket in Pakistan was being played on green tops, Hammad Azam had the best bowling average, however he is hardly a club level bowler. In my opinion the eye test works well in Pakistan but I do agree that stats are useful when the structure is good can be useful.
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No. I'm just saying they had decent performances under their belt already. In Pakistan, we often see players persisted because they look beautiful. The worst instance is that of Asad Shafiq in ODIs who managed to play 60 matches at an average of under 25.

My point is: systems work through data. Our haphazard approach is selection is what makes Pakistan so "unpredictable", and retaining that tag after two decades is not a compliment. Hammad Azam had good FC stats, but mediocre List A ones. He was selected as a pace all-rounder, and we still don't have many going around in the domestics.

I have two questions:
1) what do you prioritize? Data or eye test?
2) who is better at eye test? A seasoned ex-player who had loads of natural talent or a technical analyst?
 
Surely, just surely Pakistan have a better spin somewhere than the tournament top wicket taker Adam Zampa, I can't get my head around the fact Adam Zampa is the highest wicket taker in this World Cup and Pakistan struggle to find a bowler who can bowl 6 deliveries on a testing line and length without going for 6-8 RPO.
 
asfandyar said:
No. I'm just saying they had decent performances under their belt already. In Pakistan, we often see players persisted because they look beautiful. The worst instance is that of Asad Shafiq in ODIs who managed to play 60 matches at an average of under 25.

My point is: systems work through data. Our haphazard approach is selection is what makes Pakistan so "unpredictable", and retaining that tag after two decades is not a compliment. Hammad Azam had good FC stats, but mediocre List A ones. He was selected as a pace all-rounder, and we still don't have many going around in the domestics.

I have two questions:
1) what do you prioritize? Data or eye test?
2) who is better at eye test? A seasoned ex-player who had loads of natural talent or a technical analysis
Click to expand...
I would use good quality stats to filter out top performers. Number of runs and average is not good enough. If someone can develop stats that can factor conditions and strength of opposition bowling attack it would be ideal.

After filtering stats I would do the eye tests. I feel certain ex players have good eyes. In Pakistan, Mohammad Hafeez is someone who has a good eye for talent.
 
zarak said:
I would use good quality stats to filter out top performers. Number of runs and average is not good enough. If someone can develop stats that can factor conditions and strength of opposition bowling attack it would be ideal.

After filtering stats I would do the eye tests. I feel certain ex players have good eyes. In Pakistan, Mohammad Hafeez is someone who has a good eye for talent.
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That is EXACTLY what I would have done. A system can be developed (and should have been developed by PCB) that factors in other players' performances (100, 150 and 200 in the same match means batting pitch, both teams getting bowled out for under 200 = bowling pitch).
 
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