PakPassion Debate : Misbah-ul-Haq's coaching ability (Major vs Hadi Rizvi)

[MenInG]

The topic has got a lot of interest over the last few months but lets see what [MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION], [MENTION=139075]Hadi Rizvi[/MENTION] can bring to the table.

The floor is now open to the debatees - rest of us can wait until end of the debate to add our views

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

[MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION]

Since you support Misbah, I think it's only logical if you make the opening statement on Misbah's coaching ability.

 

[Major]

Ok let start with how Misbah was made coach.

First of all, it was not Misbah who requested PCB he wanted to coach. It was the PCB who approached Misbah.
Job advertisement is a dramaybaazi that needs to be done at official level. This is something i learned in my HRM course that companies are required by law to give out a job advertisement, but who they hire is their choice.

Now as for Misbah being Islamabad's coach, like i said above, Misbah was approached by Misbah not the other way around. Thus, Misbah had the status Qou and can place any demand, PCB accepted it because they were desperate in having PCB. Misbah won the negotiation. It might had been a bluff by Misbah to be honest, but PCB got played there.

Than 2nd thing comes is whether he falls under the caoching advertisement requirements.

He has level 2 coaching, plus the advertisement also stated

"with a minimum 3 years of working experience in a similar cricketing role with elite cricketers, national or international teams.

It added that Test/International Cricketers would be preferred, however, first class cricketers having more than 10 years' experience may also apply. Candidates can apply by latest 23rd August 2019."

Misbah has played for Pakistan as Captain, the captain works alot with the coaches, so that also comes underneath it.


Now as Misbah's coaching abilities.

Look in cricket, Coaches dont play that much of a role. All they need to do is make the players follow a coaching plan, they set the criteria of what is acceptable level of fitness, performance and merit, and the players have to respect that. Thats about it.

In cricket coaches dont transform players overnight. Each player has 8 different coaches from club level to district, region, firstclass, List A, T20 and Ramazan T20s.

Coaches jobs are usually more related to building team strategies, picking the players, making team plans and ensuring that the captain is leading the team correctly. A captains boss is the coach.

Heres a qoute from Imran Khan on coaches in cricket.

"I think too much time and effort is spent and wasted on who the coach should be. Coaches basically have very limited ability to help a team and I don't understand this obsession with coaches, because basically Australia was not the best team because of their coach, they were the best team because they were a great team and they had a good domestic cricket structure which kept on throwing up good players and they had a good quality captain."

"If a coach was such a big thing then Zimbabwe or Bangladesh or one of the other weaker teams could just have a good coach and he could transform the team. It cannot work like that. Yes, a captain can play a major role but not a coach. I always find that people do not understand that cricket is perhaps the only game that needs leadership and that needs a captain who needs to be a leader."

"In no other sport other than cricket does a captain have such an important role and they keep on confusing cricket with football. Then you have coaches trying to justify their salaries by having computers and other technical gadgets and trying to look useful. Which coach has really made that much difference? As far as I am concerned, yes a coach who is very bright who understands the game and understands different strategies can help the captain. But more than that if the captain is useless, whatever the coach does, he can't do anything as the coach cannot go on the field and play the game on behalf of the captain. It's the captain who matters, not the coach."

https://www.pakpassion.net/literatu...in-who-matters-not-the-coachq-imran-khan.html

I would make a point here however. There are teams where the coaches have more pwoer in the dressing room and there are teams where the captain has more power.

Plus, this Misbah thing is the not the first time it ever happened. Intikhab Alam was the coach of the World T20 2009 team and i think Mananger back in 1992.
Mike Hesson didnt have play international cricket or had any major coaching experiences yet he coached New Zealand. ANd than there is Ravi Shastri of India

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

First of all I'd like to thank the mods for giving me this opportunity.

I would like to say straight away that the opening statement was surprisingly irrelevant to the chosen topic. I was assuming that we were here to discuss the coaching abilities and not the hiring process or the importance of a coach in cricket. I feel that [MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] has gone way off-topic rather than addressing the issue head-on.

I do want to add, however, that Misbah being on the panel that chose Mickey's fate and then going on to become Chief Selector and Head Coach SCREAMS conflict of interest.
However, that is not the debate at hand.

So let's wind the clocks back to 2015. Waqar is our head coach and Misbah is captain for CWC2015. Shehzad and Umar are still in the team based off "potential/talent" rather than performances and our bowling lineup is full of nobodies (in LOIs) like Ehsan Adil, Sohail Khan, Rahat Ali and Yasir Shah. Basically one of the weakest PAK WC squad ever. We all know how that WC turned out. Got blown away by WI and barely scraped past Zimbabwe to reach QFs. I have given this painful reminder just to show you guys that our leadership group back then i.e, Waqar/Misbah duo failed spectacularly at the biggest stage and selected TTFs and "talented" players.

Fast forward to the present and it's clear we haven't learned a thing. Misbah is now head coach and chief selector while Waqar is the bowling coach. The results so far indicate exactly what could've been predicted judging from this duo's previous endeavours.
ODI and Test series victories against minnows (SL and BAN) aside, a humiliating tour of Australia ensued where we took teenaged kids to bowl against men that too Down Under. Even if we forgive those results based on similar past tours, how do we get past the 3-0 drubbing against a SL B team where, mind you, the selections did include Shehzad and Umar Akmal. Every single press conference, Misbah said that he's promoting aggressive batting in the batsmen yet somehow, most of the batsmen seemed to be too scared to open up and play their shots. The usual calm Misbah was found wanting even in front of press with jabs and sarcasm aplenty not befitting a professional.

Pathetic, inconsistent selections, no visible improvement in mindsets, no clear vision for any tournament and most importantly, the typically Pakistani aggressive flair and passion is clearly absent with players playing within themselves and trying to stay in their comfort zones.

I see very dark days ahead for Pakistan Cricket with Misbah at the reins.

 

[Major]

Those are not irrelevant points, those points are often bought inforward when ever him as a caoch is being discussed.

Yes, Misbah was on the panel. But it was not decided at that point who the coach would be. Misbah being decided as coach was done during the last 2 weeks of coach selection. Infact, he was the last one to apply for the role.

2015 World Cup was not a failure because of player selection. That doesnt have anything to do with this topic, but chalo i will say that:
The selection of Younis Khan was done due to Media, and Umar Akmal got selected due to his references in PMLN. SOhaib Maqsood was a bust. The bowling line up of Sohail, Ehan and Rahat was a very good pace attack on Australian pitches. We made it to the quaters.
Yasir Shah had to be picked, as ICC had banned AJmal and Hafeez.

You talk about Sri Lanka and Bangladesh being minnows, ok so what do you want Misbah to do? to just lose against them? WHen ever misbah gets discussed the criticism isn't his abilities, its his personality that people have a problem with that you lot critisize him. You out of no where mentioned the Sri Lanka and Bangladesh series and made sure to call that a minnow win.

As for Australia, what options did we have in the bowling attack? Wahab and Amir retired. Hasan Ali was injured. Imran Khan had to be added just for the experience. I remember when Abbas was not played in the first test and alot of criticism was placed. He played the next match did nothing

I agree, Umar AKmal and Shezad selection was a bad one during his coaching.

the typically Pakistani aggressive flair

lol this is such a made up thing.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

It doesn't matter WHEN Misbah was decided as head coach. What matter is that he ousted Mickey and then became head coach himself regardless of when he applied for it. Even a child will cry "conflict of interest" at that.

If the bowling lineup of Ehsan, Rahat and Sohail was a very good pace attack (lmao) why didn't they play together for a large number of matches. Clearly everyone knew that it was a pathetic bowling attack and they all were immediately replaced as soon as Amir was available.

SL lost an ODI series to Zimbabwe and have been consistently poor in LOIs. How are they not a minnow side? BAN has always been minnows and they still are no matter what anyone thinks or says. Their results are still pretty ordinary and they have a non-existent bowling attack.

Is your standard that low that a win against these 2 sides is to be considered a big achievement for a cricket team?
And where do I even start with the 3-0 humiliation by SL B team made up of nobodies? Are you really that much of a blind Misbah fan?

As for Australia, our selection was all over the place. Why did we take a teenager there? Naseem did nothing of note there. Imran Khan's selection out of nowhere whereas there were better domestic performer available. Similarly, Fawad Alam was ignored despite a mountain of runs.

It's very clear that Misbah is not capable of either of the jobs assigned to him.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

[MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION]
Waiting for your reply.

Otherwise [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] consider the above as my ending statement.

 

[MenInG]

The debate is now open for all to add their comments.

You can also add your votes to the poll about who won this debate.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

Major is completely right. Hadi rizvi is basing his rage off a stupid t20 series when no one gives a hoot about bolstering T20 games.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Pre-face: There was definitely conflict of interest, but my comments are about ability and purely ability.

Misbah won 1/1 ODI series and 2/3 test series, lost 2/3 T20 series. I don’t look at T20s to gauge coaching performance. The one test series we lost was in Australia.

Using these metrics and given that he’s new to the job, I’m ready to give him some time in the job. How we perform in the England Tests will be the defining moment of his coaching career and will tell us once and for all whether he should be in this position or not.

I still maintain that he’s made some blunders (Mohammad Irfan, Umar Akmal, Ahmed Shehzad) and other decisions he was forced to make (test bowling attack in australia was the best we could do with amir and wahab out and Abbas injured for the first test).

However, I only want what’s best for Pakistan cricket and I know that a few mistakes (a good number of which were in T20) don’t define a coach. He’s a smart guy, and I hope he can come good

 

[CleverSir]

A point that always keeps getting made is that somehow Misbah alone decided to not renew Mickey Arthur's contract. It was a committee not a one man show of Misbah that made that decision. That isn't a valid argument against Misbah that he kicked out Mickey to get the job for himself. If they really wanted to keep Mickey the other members of the committee could have.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

A point that always keeps getting made is that somehow Misbah alone decided to not renew Mickey Arthur's contract. It was a committee not a one man show of Misbah that made that decision. That isn't a valid argument against Misbah that he kicked out Mickey to get the job for himself. If they really wanted to keep Mickey the other members of the committee could have.

Yeah it was a 5-0 vote

 

[ahmedzee]

I fully agree with Hadi Rizvi here. We know Major to be very biased against those who criticize Misbah.
Back to topic, rightfully so, and numerous time as mentioned by me on this forum, Misbah has instilled defeatist and defensive mentality in Pakistan limited overs cricket. Let me take back to when he was the ODi captain. He has lost plenty of games to so may times, whitewashed time and again, and it all came down to one weakness, batting slow. Misbah started this trend where you can scam others to think you are a great batsman by batting slow and scoring a 50 at 60SR, while the rest of the team succumbs to the high scoring rate and get out. In the end you are left with batsman with quick 30s and 40s and one Misbah with a 70 odd runs with 60SR. This followed by captaincy, which was a result of his test captaincy which I admit was successful. But based on test cricket he was allowed to captain Pakistan in ODI and it showed his lack of capability in attacking the opposition (batting wise and captaincy wise).

After the horrific 2015 WC, we were left with a team that was #9 in ranking in ODIs.

Fast forward to 2019, where Misbah is a selector and coach. As a selector he has been totally clueless, bringing back TTF like Akmal and Shahzad, and changing the already proven winning formula in T20. He has chnaged 6-7 players every single time he has selected a T20 team. Unfortunately I have started to see again the defeatist mindset in players thanks to this proven failure coaching staff.

quoting Hadi here, indeed dark days ahead for Pakistan cricket.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Its way too early to judge Misbah's performance as a coach. I do believe, however, that a coach's role in cricket is vastly overrated.The coach's role is merely providing guidance and support. The captain's role is far more important when developing and implementing strategy.

I am slightly in favor of Misbah as a coach over someone foreign. Misbah is well educated and has played modern cricket. He also understand's the culture and commands respect of the players.

I feel foreign coaches have a difficult time adjusting with Pakistani culture and quite frankly there is a significant language barrier. I also believe this barrier at times leads to preferential treatment of players who have a stronger grasp of English. Personally, and this is strictly my opinion, Imad Wasim benefited significantly from this under Mickey Arthur's era.

I definitely think that of the options available from domestic coaches, Misbah stands out far above the others because of his experience and educational background.

 

[Square Drive]

Safe to say [MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] flopped this debate. Man wasn't even able to formulate a reply in response to [MENTION=139075]Hadi Rizvi[/MENTION], who comfortably won this debate.

Misbah's appointment has been a farce. His fangirls can try all they want to prove otherwise, but nothing will change the fact.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Safe to say [MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] flopped this debate. Man wasn't even able to formulate a reply in response to [MENTION=139075]Hadi Rizvi[/MENTION], who comfortably won this debate.

Misbah's appointment has been a farce. His fangirls can try all they want to prove otherwise, but nothing will change the fact.

Not a Misbah 'fangirl' by any stretch of the imagination but Misbah has only been coach for some 6 months. How can any reasonable person judge performance in such a short period of time?

 

[Square Drive]

Not a Misbah 'fangirl' by any stretch of the imagination but Misbah has only been coach for some 6 months. How can any reasonable person judge performance in such a short period of time?

He sat on the same committee that ousted the previous coach.

If you think that's fine, I can't help you.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

He sat on the same committee that ousted the previous coach.

If you think that's fine, I can't help you.

Agreed — what are your thoughts on his abilities?

 

[Square Drive]

Agreed — what are your thoughts on his abilities?

Honestly don't have very high hopes. He's been given too much a responsibility at the same time, and too soon. He starts making cheap, smart comments when the media gives him some stick which I find quite pathetic to be honest.

Nonetheless, his stint thus far has been very brief and while some of his selections have been poor, he's overall not done too bad in his dual role, albeit against some of the easier sides.

How we fare against England and NZ away (should the games go through) will tell us a lot more. I personally don't have a lot of hope from him. He's also the batting coach and I'm not sure he possesses the tactical nous for that. His coaching abilities is what I'm more skeptical about, because his selections so far have been alright (Akmal, Shehzad, Irfan aside - but atleast the chapter on those guys seems to have been permanently closed now) considering he had the small boots of Inzi to fill. He's willing to give young guys a go and I'm hopefuly Haider and Zafar will soon come into the fold under him as well. But this Azhar-Misbah combo seems to be very defensive, and I'm hoping he doesn't instill the same mentality within Babar who seems set to be named ODI captain now as well.

Nonetheless, for Pakistan's sake I hope he does well and the team thrives under him.

 

[Gayle_Force]

He sat on the same committee that ousted the previous coach.

If you think that's fine, I can't help you.

Topic is about his abilities not how he got in.

I doubt Misbah has the power himself to fire the existing coach and make himself the replacement. That decision absolutely came from higher authorities.

 

[Square Drive]

Topic is about his abilities not how he got in.

I doubt Misbah has the power himself to fire the existing coach and make himself the replacement. That decision absolutely came from higher authorities.

You're free to live in cloud cuckoo land and believe that he wasn't on that committee. It's a known fact that he voted on that committee, but you're free to believe otherwise if that makes things easier for you.

As far as his abilities are concerned, I'm always going to judge someone harshly if the manner in which they got inducted was corrupt. Nonetheless, I have given my thoughts on that in the post above.

 

[Gayle_Force]

You're free to live in cloud cuckoo land and believe that he wasn't on that committee. It's a known fact that he voted on that committee, but you're free to believe otherwise if that makes things easier for you.

As far as his abilities are concerned, I'm always going to judge someone harshly if the manner in which they got inducted was corrupt. Nonetheless, I have given my thoughts on that in the post above.

Never said he wasnt on the committee but he wasnt judge, jury, and executioner that he single handily made that decision. There were other people on the committee and if you think that Misbah has enough power in the PCB to fire a coach and hire himself than i dont know if it is me or you who is living in 'cloud cukoo land'.

 

[Square Drive]

Never said he wasnt on the committee but he wasnt judge, jury, and executioner that he single handily made that decision. There were other people on the committee and if you think that Misbah has enough power in the PCB to fire a coach and hire himself than i dont know if it is me or you who is living in 'cloud cukoo land'.

Doesn't matter if he single handedly made the decision or not. He had a say and more importantly a vote, which influenced it significantly.

At the end of the day, corruption is corruption regardless of the degree of it.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Doesn't matter if he single handedly made the decision or not. He had a say and more importantly a vote, which influenced it significantly.

At the end of the day, corruption is corruption regardless of the degree of it.

Did he appoint himself to the committee? If not than how is it corruption?

As far as I know he was appointed by management to be part of the committee and than management appointed him coach. In both cases the decision came from up top.

Unless you are suggesting that he bribed the management? that is the only way his appointment can be corrupt.

 

[Kroll]

Posters saying Misbah needs time lol. Why should he get time when he neither earned the position or deserved it.

Also, have we got time to waste by letting Misbah learn the ropes? He's already wasted significant time by bringing back TTFs Akmal and Shehzad and then he brought kids to bowl against men out in Australia.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Posters saying Misbah needs time lol. Why should he get time when he neither earned the position or deserved it.

Also, have we got time to waste by letting Misbah learn the ropes? He's already wasted significant time by bringing back TTFs Akmal and Shehzad and then he brought kids to bowl against men out in Australia.

Yea because Pakistan turned into world beaters in the first 6 months under Mickey Arthur or his predecessors. Also you are criticizing him simultaneously for both bringing back TTFs and bringing in new blood? that is quite a contradiction haha. What else can he do?

Not saying Misbah is the greatest mind out there but he should be given time now that he is in the position.

 

[Snowflake]

Even if Hadi Rizvi hadn't responded in this thread, he still would've won this debate.

The list of Misbah's atrocious decisions is never-ending! His lack of player development during his reign as captain speaks volumes of his capabilities as someone who can be entrusted with a coaching job. The guy literally sucked the blood out of our ODI team and left it in shambles and here we are talking about his coaching skills?

Apart from not having an iota of coaching experience, Misbah solidified all the fears when we brought back Shehzad and Umar, sent an inexperienced team to Australia but then didn't have the spine to stick with it for the following easier challenges.

Misbah has been more harmful to the Pakistan team than the entire spot fixing scandal. You can recover from the loss of players but you can never recover from the loss of your spirit. Misbah killed the soul of this team through his extremely uninspiring deadpan captaincy and is going to make sure there are no chances of a revival with him at the helm as coach and CS.

 

[Syed1]

Please appoint me the CEO of your company, I may not have skills, education, knowledge or experience for the job but please appoint me and give me time.




Ikhees toppon ki salaami for certain folks

 

[Snowflake]

Please appoint me the CEO of your company, I may not have skills, education, knowledge or experience for the job but please appoint me and give me time.




Ikhees toppon ki salaami for certain folks

Also, I did horribly at my previous job

 

[Gayle_Force]

Even if Hadi Rizvi hadn't responded in this thread, he still would've won this debate.

The list of Misbah's atrocious decisions is never-ending! His lack of player development during his reign as captain speaks volumes of his capabilities as someone who can be entrusted with a coaching job. The guy literally sucked the blood out of our ODI team and left it in shambles and here we are talking about his coaching skills?

Apart from not having an iota of coaching experience, Misbah solidified all the fears when we brought back Shehzad and Umar, sent an inexperienced team to Australia but then didn't have the spine to stick with it for the following easier challenges.

Misbah has been more harmful to the Pakistan team than the entire spot fixing scandal. You can recover from the loss of players but you can never recover from the loss of your spirit. Misbah killed the soul of this team through his extremely uninspiring deadpan captaincy and is going to make sure there are no chances of a revival with him at the helm as coach and CS.

Yet stats indicate the he is Pakistan's most successful test captain (Yes, even better than Imran Khan). Must have been doing something right.

 

[Kroll]

Yea because Pakistan turned into world beaters in the first 6 months under Mickey Arthur or his predecessors. Also you are criticizing him simultaneously for both bringing back TTFs and bringing in new blood? that is quite a contradiction haha. What else can he do?

Not saying Misbah is the greatest mind out there but he should be given time now that he is in the position.

How is it a contradiction? Not bringing in TTFs, doesn't give you a free license to blunder and just chuck in anybody. Granted Wahab and Amir's retirements didn't help but Misbah bungled big time especially with the Musa selection.

 

[Gayle_Force]

How is it a contradiction? Not bringing in TTFs, doesn't give you a free license to blunder and just chuck in anybody. Granted Wahab and Amir's retirements didn't help but Misbah bungled big time especially with the Musa selection.

Again what options did he have when your two premier fast bowlers retire last minute? Does he bring back Sohail Khan or Anwar Ali. Than you would be accusing him of bringing back TTFs.