[PICTURES] How effective will Naseem Shah be on the tour of New Zealand?

[Rana]

Irony.

Did Pakistan say they have launched a ripe Dale Steyn into Test Cricket at the age of 16? If yes, let us know.

 

[Mesozoic]

Did Pakistan say they have launched a ripe Dale Steyn into Test Cricket at the age of 16? If yes, let us know.

When did I say they did? Why are you shifting the posts now? You're the one that said Naseem is not far behind Archer using his inflated stats against SL and Ban C at home.

Now that I've shown you the reality where your golden boy has club level stats against top teams, you're getting emotional...

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I would play a 5 man attack with shadab being a batting all rounder plus fahim and 3 quicks if we are to have success it has to be with the faster men

fahim hasn't done himself any favors though. No improvement in either batting or bowling

 

[Rana]

When did I say they did? Why are you shifting the posts now? You're the one that said Naseem is not far behind Archer using his inflated stats against SL and Ban C at home.

Now that I've shown you the reality where your golden boy has club level stats against top teams, you're getting emotional...

Test cricket is Test cricket. What was stopping Archer to inflate his stats at home against 6th ranked Pakistan who only have one or two proper batsmen at this level? The wickets Naseem took against Sri Lanka were of batsmen who have played plenty of Test cricket. At liberty with reality as usual

 

[Ashmal]

When did I say they did? Why are you shifting the posts now? You're the one that said Naseem is not far behind Archer using his inflated stats against SL and Ban C at home.

Now that I've shown you the reality where your golden boy has club level stats against top teams, you're getting emotional...

Well Jofra might be better than a 20 year old.

But he hasn't really set the world alight in tests....avgs 48 in away games.

 

[Mesozoic]

Test cricket is Test cricket. What was stopping Archer to inflate his stats at home against 6th ranked Pakistan who only have one or two proper batsmen at this level? The wickets Naseem took against Sri Lanka were of batsmen who have played plenty of Test cricket. At liberty with reality as usual

Archer won't lose sleep over not performing against Pak and WI as he has proven himself against top teams like Australia and won a world cup for his team.

Naseem's SL and Ban C bullying might have carried a bit more weight had he not averaged close to 70 in the only two tough series' he has played in.

 

[Rana]

Archer won't lose sleep over not performing against Pak and WI as he has proven himself against top teams like Australia and won a world cup for his team.

Naseem's SL and Ban C bullying might have carried a bit more weight had he not averaged close to 70 in the only two tough series' he has played in.

A poster rightly pointed out that you cannot disregard Naseem's performance against England in that series as Archer was equally below par. As a matter of fact, Naseem in his brief spell (1st year in Test cricket at the age of 16-17) has not done terribly bad in comparison to world class emerging pace bowlers, the list that included Archer, Nortje and Joseph.

Ive said it time and time again, you are at liberty with reality. By all means troll, but do not expose your filthy hatered with pathetic arguments such as Archer has performed against Australia so he wont lose sleep if he doesnt perform well against West Indies and Pakistan, both sides who could have stolen a Test series victory against England last summer due to Archer going missing.

 

[Mercurial]

He has more chance of impressing on NZ tour mainly due to green pitches there.

 

[TeymurBlake]

He has time on his hand does Naseem. He probably should have been given a run in the QeA Trophy for about 2 seasons at least. Ehsan Adil and Sameen Gul would have been better options, maybe even Amir.

 

[shamaan]

fahim hasn't done himself any favors though. No improvement in either batting or bowling

But he stil can do the monkeys work eith abbas and shaheen and naseem to rotate quick.fast spells

 

[shamaan]

Archer won't lose sleep over not performing against Pak and WI as he has proven himself against top teams like Australia and won a world cup for his team.

Naseem's SL and Ban C bullying might have carried a bit more weight had he not averaged close to 70 in the only two tough series' he has played in.

Archer is not on the same level as bumra or cummings.archer is on the same level as naseem or even below

 

[Mamoon]

Archer is not on the same level as bumra or cummings.archer is on the same level as naseem or even below

What has Naseem achieved to be considered better or even at the same level as Archer?

 

[Xoib]

Naseem will eventually be the leader of Pak attack or Co leader with Shaeen in 2-3 years that's how much I rate him but I would like him Hasnain and Rauf to play the Shaheen games and the best performer plays the test as 3rd seamer

 

[naseem]

Against decent (top 5) teams....

Joffra Archer

30 wickets @ 27 (7 games)

Naseem Shah

4 wickets @ 69 (4 games)


Yes. He's not anywhere near Jofra nor he's 7 years younger.

Going by your logic actually he is 7 years older than Archer and is playing 12 years of first class cricket..

What more can we expect from a hyp0cryte

 

[naseem]

What has Naseem achieved to be considered better or even at the same level as Archer?

What will u do when he will actually achieve ......

 

[Mamoon]

What will u do when he will actually achieve ......

If he does achieve as much or more than Archer, I will have no problem in acknowledging that he is better.

However, before pigs fly and the sun rises from the west, what has Naseem done now which makes you say that he is better than Archer?

 

[Thunderbolt14]

If he does achieve as much or more than Archer, I will have no problem in acknowledging that he is better.

However, before pigs fly and the sun rises from the west, what has Naseem done now which makes you say that he is better than Archer?

When’s the last time you admitted you were wrong?

 

[Mamoon]

When’s the last time you admitted you were wrong?

I don’t know. When you are rarely wrong you don’t keep track.

 

[Mesozoic]

Archer is not on the same level as bumra or cummings.archer is on the same level as naseem or even below

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Mesozoic]

Going by your logic actually he is 7 years older than Archer and is playing 12 years of first class cricket..

What more can we expect from a hyp0cryte

So Naseem is better than or is as good as Archer because........... he's 7 years younger than him and has less first class experience.

Whatta logic.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I don’t know. When you are rarely wrong you don’t keep track.

I would imagine it’s the opposite, when you’re rarely wrong the wrong ones would stick out like a sore thumb.

I’m relatively new to this forum, but I’m curious what your initial predictions were about Babar, Shaheen, and as of January 2017 what your expectation of Pakistan’s chances were in the Champions Trophy.

You must have been right about all of those?

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

I would imagine it’s the opposite, when you’re rarely wrong the wrong ones would stick out like a sore thumb.

I’m relatively new to this forum, but I’m curious what your initial predictions were about Babar, Shaheen, and as of January 2017 what your expectation of Pakistan’s chances were in the Champions Trophy.

You must have been right about all of those?

Hahaha...he thought Shaheen was a lost cause and had regressed alarmingly after he was pummelled in the England odi's last year.

He also forecasted whitewashes in all our test tours to england in the last 4 years.

He made a prediction that Amir will never pick a 5 for which he did against Australia; even though i dont rate it.

He predicted Sohaib Maqsood as the next great batsman to come out of Pakistan in 2013.

He backed Azhar Ali to be a very good odi opener, in the mould of Ian Bell around 2015.

These are just a few from the top of my head.

He was right about Babar all along though, so i will give him that.

 

[Varun]

I mentioned this before as well. There will always be one or two anti Pakistan posters who will nitpick a reason to tell you Naseem isn’t developing well as a pace bowler. So sad, picking on a 17 year old

He's probably not 17 though.

 

[Xoib]

He's probably not 17 though.

He is also not 22-23 either as some suggest he is inmost likely hood 19-20 and for that age group he is ahead of the curve

Pakistan made the.mistake of picking him couple of years early but now he is here I believe with right handling he can go far.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Rather than analyzing Naseem Shah's performance alone, why not analyze the Pakistan bowling attack which could be used for test matches:

Faheem Ashraf - could have been a good player if management developed him correctly, but at the moment, don't see him being a wicket-taking option. That being said, I still think that if the management can work with him on line and length, and make him into an all-rounder Abbas, he might still be useful. Also need to work on his batting.

Mohammad Abbas - exceptionally good in UAE but yet to prove himself on other tracks in my opinion. Has lost pace and is easily destroyed when batsmen step outside their creases. However, he does get some seam movement with the new ball and is pinpoint accurate. But come to the older ball, I find him very easy to negotiate for batsmen, allowing singles and putting pressure back on the bowling.

Sohail Khan - doubt that he can bowl more than one good spell due to fitness. Old as well, so not a good future prospect. Haven't seen much of his batting, so pointless to talk about that.

Naseem Shah - very young and raw, despite what most people think, I believe that he does not have the skills to be a 3rd seamer outside Asia. My most notable observation is that he is unable to swing the new ball, and once he gets smacked for a boundary or two, he loses his line and length. On top of that, he doesn't bowl too many overs, so it puts pressure on Shaheen and the other pacers. I think that Naseem should learn skills with the old ball rather than the new ball. In test matches, Pakistan has nobody who can get a reverse swing or even look threatening with an older ball. Shaheen should be developed as a new ball bowler and Naseem with the old ball.

Shaheen Afridi - probably the best fast-bowler in Pakistan at the moment. Tall, gets bounce and swing, dream prospect. Needs to just use the yorker and bouncer a bit more in my opinion, but also needs to try and learn some old ball skills.

Yasir Shah - despite that 7-wicket haul in England, I don't see any point in playing him in test matches. Has a bowling average of almost 30 despite playing 40 or so matches, and is becoming older. There is no need for a full-time spinner in New Zealand unless it's Warne. He's a tailender with the bat so I don't back him to play the test matches.

Shadab Khan - young, has potential, can bat and bowl. That being said, I don't want him to become a solitary batting all-rounder, I want him to work on his bowling and try and hold the Pakistan spin attack overseas. I think that he needs to work on bowling in the right areas and keeping his overs tight.

Zafar Gohar - similar to Shadab, but a much better test match bowler in my opinion. Though Shadab is the better batsman, I think that it wouldn't hurt to play Zafar Gohar as he is reliable with the ball and bat. Could also bowl a decent amount of overs if needed.

Pakistan seriously needs to think about the combination they play for the test matches, considering the opposition, pitches, weather, and all the related factors. On paper, I think that the best bowling attack that Pakistan can play is: Shaheen, Abbas, Faheem, Naseem. Haris Sohail and Fawad Alam can contribute some overs of part-time spin.

 

[Rana]

He's probably not 17 though.

He is, he isn’t..how can anyone know? Have they been there with him for the last 20 years or so his life to verify this? Was it Mamoon who loves abusing this officially underage kid?

 

[Varun]

He is, he isn’t..how can anyone know? Have they been there with him for the last 20 years or so his life to verify this? Was it Mamoon who loves abusing this officially underage kid?

Look at any under-19 World Cup tournament - they look like kids holding a bat and ball.

Then look at Naseem Shah who is younger than the average age going around in that tournament.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Sohail Khan is not unfit. Go look at his recent pictures. He is actually very fit.

He has some issues with injuries.

 

[Rana]

Look at any under-19 World Cup tournament - they look like kids holding a bat and ball.

Then look at Naseem Shah who is younger than the average age going around in that tournament.

I’m not disagreeing with conspiracy theorists and arm chair age experts! He may well be 25 for all I know. But we have an official age and a legal document (passport) on which he is 17. Unless you have a level birth certificate that proves he is older than 18, you cannot even dream of touching him in most developed countries without a Child Welfare officer present. Yet people on this forum have casually abused him and targeted him with hate. That’s my simple point.

Those people who abused this underage kid should never be able to obtain a visa to the west. We need to keep our children safe!

 

[MenInG]

His age is not under discussion here.

 

[Xoib]

Look at any under-19 World Cup tournament - they look like kids holding a bat and ball.

Then look at Naseem Shah who is younger than the average age going around in that tournament.

Facially or even physically he does not look older then many players in U 19 wc. Its definetley not a case of rashid Khan here

 

[tyron_woodley]

Facially or even physically he does not look older then many players in U 19 wc. Its definetley not a case of rashid Khan here

Yep. He is max 20. Probably 2 or 3 years older than his actual age. C'mon the dude looks real young. Lol.

Shaheen too. I doubt Shaheen is a day older than 20.

 

[choudhary6964]

Naseem is here to stay for a long time people can hate him all they want he is very talented and will pick up lots of Wickets.He has potential to succeed he has pace already the fastest Pacer in Asia and he has skills he will come good he has bright future ahead of him

 

[Khan12]

When’s the last time you admitted you were wrong?

Let's not forget Haris and babar were mental midgets too.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

But he stil can do the monkeys work eith abbas and shaheen and naseem to rotate quick.fast spells

I wish we could have had someone like Jacob Oram, Scott Styris or even Bopara.
Nz had a plethora of dibbly dobblers in 90s and 2000s who could easily do the job of a 5th bowler to give main guys a rest.
Fahim merely takes the spot there and his batting ability is only an imaginary "tasalli" we give ourselves.

 

[kingusama92]

Look at any under-19 World Cup tournament - they look like kids holding a bat and ball.

Then look at Naseem Shah who is younger than the average age going around in that tournament.

Naseem can easily pass for 17. Looks like a baby.

He's no more than 19-20 in real.

 

[Third Man]

I’m not disagreeing with conspiracy theorists and arm chair age experts! He may well be 25 for all I know. But we have an official age and a legal document (passport) on which he is 17. Unless you have a level birth certificate that proves he is older than 18, you cannot even dream of touching him in most developed countries without a Child Welfare officer present. Yet people on this forum have casually abused him and targeted him with hate. That’s my simple point.

Those people who abused this underage kid should never be able to obtain a visa to the west. We need to keep our children safe!

I'm a fan of Nasim, but enough of this "official" and "legal" age thing. Age is not just a number on a document, it's a real thing. And no, Naseem is not 17. You're just acting blind. You probably think Iftikhar is 30, too.

 

[Third Man]

On topic though, I'm predicting he'll do better than the England tour. For me, he needs to get the energy in his runup back. In England he had a lackluster run-up. Liked his runup against Australia A.

 

[shamaan]

I wish we could have had someone like Jacob Oram, Scott Styris or even Bopara.
Nz had a plethora of dibbly dobblers in 90s and 2000s who could easily do the job of a 5th bowler to give main guys a rest.
Fahim merely takes the spot there and his batting ability is only an imaginary "tasalli" we give ourselves.

I no what you mean it's either fahim or we go with yasir or an extra batter I would go with fahim as the 4th seamer

 

[Indiafan]

I mentioned this before as well. There will always be one or two anti Pakistan posters who will nitpick a reason to tell you Naseem isn’t developing well as a pace bowler. So sad, picking on a 17 year old

You know he is not 17. There is factual and pictorial proof he is not 17. Depsite that when you keep insisting he is 17, as if everyone else in the world are fools, then people will also call it out and want to nitpick

The only USP you guys seem to be hyping is his age and not skills and when that age seems to be built on falsehood, how else do you think people will react?

 

[Indiafan]

His age is not under discussion here.

Why not? When every post starts with, but he is only only 17, but he is so young and will develop, what replies should be given to that without mentioning his age? If not for age he would be compared to Musa who people call ordinary and nit be hyped as some prodigy like he is being now

You cannot have it both ways, hype someone only becaue of their young age rather than acheivement, and when that age is questioned, talk about that not being the point

Every single hype I have seen from him is only been because of his age, youngest to do this, only a teen, etc

 

[kingusama92]

The only USP you guys seem to be hyping is his age and not skills and when that age seems to be built on falsehood, how else do you think people will react?

Naseem's performances in FC cricket are the reason he's hyped. Not because of his age.

Even if he's 19-20 now, Naseem remains an excellent prospect.

 

[Indiafan]

Naseem's performances in FC cricket are the reason he's hyped. Not because of his age.

Even if he's 19-20 now, Naseem remains an excellent prospect.

They hype people see is only about his age currently. Also its easy to outperform your peers when you are older and more developed physically and mentally

There is a reason no one questions Afridi who is currently one of the best young bowlers in the world

Look at Rashid Khan, his age is obviously fake but becuase he shows actual performance, people stopped talking about his age and talk about his actual performances. Once Naseen actually performs he won't be questioned.

But currently everything seems to be, he is very young with a lot of performance

 

[Thunderbolt14]

You know he is not 17. There is factual and pictorial proof he is not 17. Depsite that when you keep insisting he is 17, as if everyone else in the world are fools, then people will also call it out and want to nitpick

The only USP you guys seem to be hyping is his age and not skills and when that age seems to be built on falsehood, how else do you think people will react?

He has fantastic skills for a 20 year old, even a 22 year old. So you are right, he is probably not 17, but even if he is 19 or 20 it does not matter. He already has a Test five-fer and a hattrick, and was one of the few fast bowlers (whether 16 years old or 30) who actually looked like taking wickets in First Class last season. He had two successive bad away tours, yet still walked away with the wicket of one of the Fab 4, twice (Joe Root, out for 42 and 29).

So yes, he did not have a breakthrough English season but he remains a highly rated prospect. Our entire lineup is struggling because we barely have a first and second pacer, so expecting the third pacer to come in and dominate is an unrealistic set of expectations that even overhyping-prone Pakistan fans choose not to have.

Anyone who has watched him bowl as a genuine and neutral fan of fast bowling knows he is potentially special. Skill-wise. Not age-wise. That is all.

 

[kingusama92]

They hype people see is only about his age currently. Also its easy to outperform your peers when you are older and more developed physically and mentally

There is a reason no one questions Afridi who is currently one of the best young bowlers in the world

Look at Rashid Khan, his age is obviously fake but becuase he shows actual performance, people stopped talking about his age and talk about his actual performances. Once Naseen actually performs he won't be questioned.

But currently everything seems to be, he is very young with a lot of performance

How was Naseem older and more physically developed than everyone in domestic cricket? Naseem was doing well at the highest level of Pakistan's domestic ranks.

That is India's equivalent of the Ranji Trophy.

Yes, Naseem needs to perform consistently in international cricket, but young prospects (and yes he's still young whether he's 17 or even 21) are often rated by their skill at the domestic level. The age debate shouldn't take away from what he did before getting selected.

He was making some of the best FC batsmen look silly. Yorkers, bouncers, pace, and swing both ways. This is a world-class prospect without a doubt.

If the same bowler was 23-24, I would still be raving about him. The fact he's 17-20 (whatever floats people's boat) just makes it even better.

 

[andy0204]

Not sure about Naseem but Shaheen will love this kind of surfaces where there is spongy bounce.

 

[Ashmal]

They hype people see is only about his age currently. Also its easy to outperform your peers when you are older and more developed physically and mentally

Yeah got you...he outperformed everyone in first class cricket because he was clearly the oldest among them...lol

He may not be 17 but he's certainly not a 25 year old which many experts here would like us to believe.

He's in the 19-20 range age-wise and there are not many 19 year olds in the world with a test hattrick and a test 5-fer so that explains the hype he got.

Some fans did overhype him, he's not a finished product by any means but he has shown enough glimpses of his talent and will only improve in future.

 

[Ellipsism]

Let's not forget Haris and babar were mental midgets too.

Jason Roy succeeding in the Ashes was another mighty prediction of his.

 

[Xoib]

Jason Roy succeeding in the Ashes was another mighty prediction of his.

Yeah if somebody can keep track I am sure his success fail ratio if prediction is no better then 20-80 but I guess you got to give him credit he does put his neck on the line which is not easy to do.

 

[Rana]

You know he is not 17. There is factual and pictorial proof he is not 17. Depsite that when you keep insisting he is 17, as if everyone else in the world are fools, then people will also call it out and want to nitpick

The only USP you guys seem to be hyping is his age and not skills and when that age seems to be built on falsehood, how else do you think people will react?

His age should not matter regardless, his official documents say he is 17 years old. If you try anything with him where anyone below the age of 18 is considered underage, you will be in massive, massive trouble with the police regardless of how you apparently can prove to the police that he is 20-21 through web forums.

So let’s not go there in the first place. He is 17, that’s what his official documents say. Whatever his age, he has played as many Tests as Archer, Nortje, Joseph and maybe a few other express pace bowlers who I have missed our. He hasn’t done too bad in comparison to these big names of world cricket

 

[MenInG]

The obsession with his age!

This thread is NOT about his age.

 

[Kroll]

He'll have to perform as he's already failed in 2 overseas tours otherwise there will be calls to get discarded. This is why I feel he's been brought in too early as the test arena is no place to practice your skills if you're not quite ready.

Every spot in the test team should be well earned. But in fairness, we have seen Naseem's spot isn't the only one that has been highly dubious.

 

[Xoib]

He'll have to perform as he's already failed in 2 overseas tours otherwise there will be calls to get discarded. This is why I feel he's been brought in too early as the test arena is no place to practice your skills if you're not quite ready.

Every spot in the test team should be well earned. But in fairness, we have seen Naseem's spot isn't the only one that has been highly dubious.

Yeah blame the management for it they got an extremely raw albeit very talented guy to fill in a 3 seamer role in a 4 bowler attack which includes another 20yr old rookie

 

[MMHS]

The obsession with his age!

This thread is NOT about his age.

This thread indeed is not about age, rather performance and apart from few trolls no one brought his age here either. I have two detailed post here on that topic without mentioning age. The problem, what we are told here is - if he performs -it’s talent; if he doesn’t it’s because of age or lack of it. Age or not, from “20 wickets at 20, if someone ends up with 3 wickets at 70”, normal people won’t swallow rubbish excuses, mostly build around .... again his age.

For example, I see two sets of forecasted numbers around Naseem: 80-100 wickets in 20 Tests, from 17 in 7 ... take an average, 90 of 20 means 73 wickets in 13 Tests or 5.62/Test - that was beyond Dennis Lille at his prime. Now, if you challenge that - there again comes age. Another data point is - “398 Test wickets” - add 17.... that should take past the magic number of 414 .... this is built again on the potential, based on age - because the guy who took 414 wickets officially started at similar age, but took a 10for on his second Test in New Zealand and a 5for at MCG, before turning 19 - don’t think unless you are an absolute idiot or thinking others to be one, you will ever come to quote these numbers.

I think the best way to deal is what certain English doctor, settled in Australia is doing - that’ll make your job easier for sure.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Naseem Shah's effectiveness will depend on how he is used. For example, under Azhar Ali's captaincy, he was not given a defined role, just told to try and get a wicket by some miracle which unfortunately never happened.

So if Babar sees the potential in Naseem, he'd operate him in short bursts of quick short-pitched bowling against the New Zealand players. That's where I find Naseem the most effective, with less height than Shaheen, the ball can at least skid at a more dangerous angle towards batsmen. Waqar Younis needs to work on Naseem becoming an old ball bowler.

That being said, I doubt that this level of competency will be shown, given the disastrous first test match in England.

 

[Rana]

Mohammad Asif

23 Tests, 106 wickets @24. This is also after he went wicketless in his first Test in Australia, and he also played some Test matches in Pakistan against India where he went wicketless for plenty.

It is a good model to look up to once you start finding your groove. The 5fers, 4fers and the 10 wicket per match games will come as well. I’m sure he will have the chance to pick up 18-25 wickets against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka in a 3 match series.

 

[Rana]

Right now I think the PCB are happy to allow Naseem to continue developing himself at this level because they know full well that he will be a 5-10 wicket per match bowler anytime soon. This is the art of development. Not sure people have the patience to wait for it

 

[saeed5646]

Pretty bumpable thread .From hype bridge to extreme criticism for such a young cricketer

 

[Rana]

Anrich Nortje

Age: 26 years 337 days
Tests: 6
Wickets: 19
Economy: 3.82
Average: 35.1
strike rate: 55.1

Alzari Joseph

Age: 23
Matches: 11
Economy: 3.28
Wickets: 28
Average: 35.8
Strike rate: 66.5

Naseem Shah

Age: 17
Matches: 7
Economy:3.45
Wickets: 17
Average: 34.8
Strike rate:60.4

Jofra Archer

Age: 25
Matches: 11
Wickets: 38
Average: 31.1
Economy: 2.95
Srike rate: 63.1

Shaheen Afridi

Age: 20
Matches: 11
Wickets: 35
Average: 31.3
Economy: 3.18
Strike rate: 59.1

Will be very interesting to see who stands where 10 years from now.

 

[Local.Dada]

There is no grey area among Pakistani fans, someone is an ATG or a hack and nothing in between

Here is my honest take on Naseem Shah

Positives
Young guy (despite age debate still young) bowls 140+ and has some skills

Belongs at the international level and can only go up from here.

Can overlook Eng and Aus performances because it’s his first tour.

Now since we got those away

Here is why it is ridiculous to compare him with Archer or other established cricketers

Doesn’t have the stamina to last a competitive test match.

Still a long learning curve.

Hasn’t done anything outstanding or eye catching at the big level. Hattrick against Bangladesh D or SL C doesn’t count.

Very Raw. Look at guys like Starc,Cummins,Archer etc field. Even Bumrah or Shami who are not a natural athletes improved his fielding by leaps and bounds.

So it is ridiculous to compare him with anyone at this point apart from other young countrymen of his like Musa or Dilbar or whatever.

 

[Ashmal]

There is no grey area among Pakistani fans, someone is an ATG or a hack and nothing in between

Here is my honest take on Naseem Shah

Positives
Young guy (despite age debate still young) bowls 140+ and has some skills

Belongs at the international level and can only go up from here.

Can overlook Eng and Aus performances because it’s his first tour.

Now since we got those away

Here is why it is ridiculous to compare him with Archer or other established cricketers

Doesn’t have the stamina to last a competitive test match.

Still a long learning curve.

Hasn’t done anything outstanding or eye catching at the big level. Hattrick against Bangladesh D or SL C doesn’t count.

Very Raw. Look at guys like Starc,Cummins,Archer etc field. Even Bumrah or Shami who are not a natural athletes improved his fielding by leaps and bounds.

So it is ridiculous to compare him with anyone at this point apart from other young countrymen of his like Musa or Dilbar or whatever.

I agree with most of your points.

But a test hattrick is a great achievement regardless of the opposition strength especially for a 19-year old.

Btw, that 5-fer was against a full-strength SL batting line-up.

Naseem has high potential and has shown enough glimpses of his talent in his first season.

But he's very raw at the moment and has to learn on the job. Ideally, he should have been selected after 2 years of first-class experience.

 

[sharmaji]

Can't we just leave his age? Maybe he is 17 or maybe not. How does that matter? He is a good bowler, tremendous potential, gets good swing and is fast. That's more than enough for him to succeed. And my money is on him to succeed, he will do well in test matches.

I feel that in England he was playing either too safe (too many outside off stump deliveries) or too aggressive (too many short balls) but never got the length right. If he can get his length right in NZ early on, it's going to be huge challenge for Kane Williamson and Co.

On a side note, many catches of his bowling were dropped during the Eng tour. Pak would do better if they improve their slip fielding. That would encourage the kid too.

 

[Local.Dada]

I agree with most of your points.

But a test hattrick is a great achievement regardless of the opposition strength especially for a 19-year old.

Btw, that 5-fer was against a full-strength SL batting line-up.

Naseem has high potential and has shown enough glimpses of his talent in his first season.

But he's very raw at the moment and has to learn on the job. Ideally, he should have been selected after 2 years of first-class experience.

Sure Hattrick is Hattrick and you can only bash what is in front of you. Should have articulated it better. The achievement is great at any level but that is being thrown around as evidence to show he is as good as Cummins,Archer,Bumrah,Starc etc which is what I find funny. The talent is definitely there.

He is still a work in progress. In fact so is Shaheen Afridi who is at least a couple of notches above Naseem in terms of being ready.

 

[Rana]

Current Active Fast bowlers with excellent 20 match wicket rates:

1. Pat Cummins: 95.2

2. Kagiso Rabada: 91.6

3. Jasprit Bumrah: 97.1

4. Trent Boult: 79.7

5. Mitchel Starc: 85.1

6. Niel Wagner: 85.8

 

[Rana]

This thread indeed is not about age, rather performance and apart from few trolls no one brought his age here either. I have two detailed post here on that topic without mentioning age. The problem, what we are told here is - if he performs -it’s talent; if he doesn’t it’s because of age or lack of it. Age or not, from “20 wickets at 20, if someone ends up with 3 wickets at 70”, normal people won’t swallow rubbish excuses, mostly build around .... again his age.

For example, I see two sets of forecasted numbers around Naseem: 80-100 wickets in 20 Tests, from 17 in 7 ... take an average, 90 of 20 means 73 wickets in 13 Tests or 5.62/Test - that was beyond Dennis Lille at his prime. Now, if you challenge that - there again comes age. Another data point is - “398 Test wickets” - add 17.... that should take past the magic number of 414 .... this is built again on the potential, based on age - because the guy who took 414 wickets officially started at similar age, but took a 10for on his second Test in New Zealand and a 5for at MCG, before turning 19 - don’t think unless you are an absolute idiot or thinking others to be one, you will ever come to quote these numbers.

I think the best way to deal is what certain English doctor, settled in Australia is doing - that’ll make your job easier for sure.

See current stats of bowlers who are near or around the 80-100 Test wickets per 20 Tests. InshAllah Shaheen and Naseem will also be following this rate as long as they are taken good care of by PCB management.

Also, If Waqar Younis cannot get this work rate out of them, then it is clear where Pakistan are wasting their resources. The ability of he bowlers do not look Questionable in all honesty.

 

[Local.Dada]

See current stats of bowlers who are near or around the 80-100 Test wickets per 20 Tests. InshAllah Shaheen and Naseem will also be following this rate as long as they are taken good care of by PCB management.

Also, If Waqar Younis cannot get this work rate out of them, then it is clear where Pakistan are wasting their resources. The ability of he bowlers do not look Questionable in all honesty.

First Pakistan bowlers should focus on getting all 20 wickets in a test in bowling friendly conditions like SENA before going too far ahead on their individual great stats.

Indian bowling alone took 70 wickets in one test series in Australia last tour and one innings was not even completed.

Pakistan- total 13 wickets in 2019, 33 wickets in 2016 playing 1 test more than India combined



Also some of those wickets were from parttimers like Azhar Ali,Harris Sohail etc.

 

[Rana]

First Pakistan bowlers should focus on getting all 20 wickets in a test in bowling friendly conditions like SENA before going too far ahead on their individual great stats.

Indian bowling alone took 70 wickets in one test series in Australia last tour and one innings was not even completed.

Pakistan- total 13 wickets in 2019, 33 wickets in 2016 playing 1 test more than India combined



Also some of those wickets were from parttimers like Azhar Ali,Harris Sohail etc.

Yes, no one is denying this. I have simply laid out goals that I hope Naseem/Shaheen follow and Waqar Younis as the bowling coach to aim for. Because this is Test cricket, these are two young and talented Fast bowlers who can clearly bowl at this level (Considering their economy rates), and a top class bowling coach would look for this from his spearheads.

 

[Local.Dada]

Yes, no one is denying this. I have simply laid out goals that I hope Naseem/Shaheen follow and Waqar Younis as the bowling coach to aim for. Because this is Test cricket, these are two young and talented Fast bowlers who can clearly bowl at this level (Considering their economy rates), and a top class bowling coach would look for this from his spearheads.

I am sure it’s self explanatory that bowlers should go for most wickets with the best economy/strike rate. It is not a new innovative goal to give someone.

If someone is good enough they will automatically have those stats.

Bowling coach is there to fix issues or give a plan based on conditions/ opposition. Now how good someone is at that makes them a good coach.

Saying say someone should take 50 wickets in 10
Tests is not exactly what you would call a goal it is called wishful thinking and you don’t need a certified or qualified coach to do that.

I want Paddikal to break the highest test score and Siraj/Saini to pick all 20 wickets in a game. That is not exactly called coaching.

 

[MMHS]

See current stats of bowlers who are near or around the 80-100 Test wickets per 20 Tests. InshAllah Shaheen and Naseem will also be following this rate as long as they are taken good care of by PCB management.

Also, If Waqar Younis cannot get this work rate out of them, then it is clear where Pakistan are wasting their resources. The ability of he bowlers do not look Questionable in all honesty.

It'll be a bit harsh for WY as well if his bowlers don't achieve some esteemed targets set by passionate fans in a cricket forum.

Again, I tell you a story. Long back, I was chosen for a week long corporate training, conducted by some world famous trainers, professors from IMA Ahmedabad, NU of Singapore & one guy from BCG. To qualify for that, it took me to go through few hours of qualifiers as the expenses would be sponsored.

Now, first morning we went there in our best suits and the American guy came in his shorts & T-shirt. His starting was dramatic -

"... guys & girls, you are the chosen one, be proud of it and you have got the best of the best here to share knowledge with you........ However, there is a catch in every coaching - give an ironsmith a piece of rot iron, he can make a sword out of it as long is there is some iron in it, may be depending on the skills of ironsmith, the sharpness of the sword will vary. But, bring the best ironsmith in world and give him a piece of wood, be sandal wood, he won't make a pencil cutter out of it - because iron is iron and wood is wood. It's your chance young people to identify where you belong - iron or wood"

Not everything can be dumped over Misbah & WY's head - you'll be fooling yourself only, trust me. If PAK needs Coaching staff to restrict ZIM below 278 from 22/3, then there is something more into it than WY's coaching - try to accept that, may be one day next PAK pacer indeed will reach 300 wickets on his 60th Test.

 

[Rana]

It'll be a bit harsh for WY as well if his bowlers don't achieve some esteemed targets set by passionate fans in a cricket forum.

Again, I tell you a story. Long back, I was chosen for a week long corporate training, conducted by some world famous trainers, professors from IMA Ahmedabad, NU of Singapore & one guy from BCG. To qualify for that, it took me to go through few hours of qualifiers as the expenses would be sponsored.

Now, first morning we went there in our best suits and the American guy came in his shorts & T-shirt. His starting was dramatic -

"... guys & girls, you are the chosen one, be proud of it and you have got the best of the best here to share knowledge with you........ However, there is a catch in every coaching - give an ironsmith a piece of rot iron, he can make a sword out of it as long is there is some iron in it, may be depending on the skills of ironsmith, the sharpness of the sword will vary. But, bring the best ironsmith in world and give him a piece of wood, be sandal wood, he won't make a pencil cutter out of it - because iron is iron and wood is wood. It's your chance young people to identify where you belong - iron or wood"

Not everything can be dumped over Misbah & WY's head - you'll be fooling yourself only, trust me. If PAK needs Coaching staff to restrict ZIM below 278 from 22/3, then there is something more into it than WY's coaching - try to accept that, may be one day next PAK pacer indeed will reach 300 wickets on his 60th Test.

WY shouldn’t be chopped because of Passionate fans? You yourself posted our wicket tally for 3 away Test series. And there is nothing to write about with those performances. The Same Waqar Younis was questioning Multans decision to swap a 38 year old Irfan with a 30 year old Junaid Khan. This is the bowling coach of Pakistan. I mean who cares if a 38 year old Zombie is replaced by a 30 year old bowler?

The other point is, why call us fans delusional for believing we have great fast bowlers in Naseem and Shaheen, but then also think we are too harsh when we expect them to very soon start going at the same rate as Cummins, Bumrah and Starc? So we are apparently delusional for rating them this high but now are too harsh to not expect them to do this well?

I think England have the same expectations of Archer to also develop into the bowler who will take 85-95 wickets in 20 Test matches, and so should South Africa with Nortje.

 

[Iddy]

Correct post. To win in SENA you need balance. A batting all-rounder who can support and aid the bowlers by giving them ample rest to charge up.

Ashraf will be handy even if he isn't that good on the whole. He adds value because he can do both. his job will just be to contain and provide rest for the key bowlers

Sorry but whilst Ashraf is an okay bowler he cannot bat in any format. Should not be playing in any format for Pakistan. He has already had too many chances!

 

[Junaids]

Can we just be brutally honest about what Naseem Shah is?

He is not a 17 year old who is a fully-developed Test bowler.

He is a supremely gifted 19 year old with decent pace and a beautiful action, but who is very raw and not yet the finished article.

He is 12 months behind Shaheen Shah Afridi in his development, but also his short height means that, like Waqar Younis, he will always be hittable in places like Australia.

 

[ethan hunt]

People going after naseem must realise that Babar averaged single figures on his first tour to Australia and sat on the bench for his PSL side islamabad, he is now one of the best around.
Naseem has the attributes like pace. Action, seam position and an outswinger. Irrespective of age whether it be 17 or 19 he is already the fastest bowler in Asia in terms of average pace. Control of length will come with a little more experience.
No need for extreme volatile reactions. He never asked to be hyped. The guy will deliver. Ill be dissapointed if he doesnt fulfill his potential.

 

[Usman]

Anrich Nortje

Age: 26 years 337 days
Tests: 6
Wickets: 19
Economy: 3.82
Average: 35.1
strike rate: 55.1

Alzari Joseph

Age: 23
Matches: 11
Economy: 3.28
Wickets: 28
Average: 35.8
Strike rate: 66.5

Naseem Shah

Age: 17
Matches: 7
Economy:3.45
Wickets: 17
Average: 34.8
Strike rate:60.4

Jofra Archer

Age: 25
Matches: 11
Wickets: 38
Average: 31.1
Economy: 2.95
Srike rate: 63.1

Shaheen Afridi

Age: 20
Matches: 11
Wickets: 35
Average: 31.3
Economy: 3.18
Strike rate: 59.1

Will be very interesting to see who stands where 10 years from now.

Since there is a lot of focus on age in this thread, I thought I'd correct one. Shaheen is 21 and not 20. How do I know? He told me himself.

Back to Naseem, I think he has it in him to be really successful. He just needs to stay disciplined with his line and length. Keep hitting those lengths ball after ball in test cricket. I feel like sometimes there are too many "hit me" balls and he needs to work on being patient.

 

[Rana]

Since there is a lot of focus on age in this thread, I thought I'd correct one. Shaheen is 21 and not 20. How do I know? He told me himself.

Back to Naseem, I think he has it in him to be really successful. He just needs to stay disciplined with his line and length. Keep hitting those lengths ball after ball in test cricket. I feel like sometimes there are too many "hit me" balls and he needs to work on being patient.

Fair enough Usman bhai, do you recon these two boys can go at the same rate as Cummins, Starc and Rabada once they find their groove in Tests? Is Waqar Younis the man to make them that type of bowler?

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Hopefully this NZ tour is a break through tour for Naseem. Sometimes you need only one overseas tour to click and it sets you up to be great of the game.
Ganguly is perfect example, discarded in 1992, came back strong in 1996 in England.
He needs to be given confidence and aggressive field settings. Tell the lad to just let it rip.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Can we just be brutally honest about what Naseem Shah is?

He is not a 17 year old who is a fully-developed Test bowler.

He is a supremely gifted 19 year old with decent pace and a beautiful action, but who is very raw and not yet the finished article.

He is 12 months behind Shaheen Shah Afridi in his development, but also his short height means that, like Waqar Younis, he will always be hittable in places like Australia.

hats fine. he can still excel elsewhere apart from australia. I agree with you regarding height in australia and believe it or not also new zealand. Height matters in these 2 countries not so much because of the lift it offers via bounce. Its more due to a stamina issue.

For a short bowler its so much harder to extract variable bounce from aussie and n.z pitches because he has to constantly pitch it in with full effort. Whereas tall bowlers around 6'2 + dont need to put in as much effort to bang it in as they get decent lift of their higher arm action.
Shorter bowlers therefore will get fatigued quicker as they have to work so much harder to produce the same bounce and lift off the surface in australia and n.z. This is the truth.

Vice versa for bowlers in sub continent where being shorter actually helps as its easier to bowl yorkers and their height is conducive to being able to produce reverse swing. Also being shorter allows them to bowl a more skiddish length.

This wont work in australia and n.z unless you have good yorkers, full length balls an high arm action like bumrah.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Hopefully this NZ tour is a break through tour for Naseem. Sometimes you need only one overseas tour to click and it sets you up to be great of the game.
Ganguly is perfect example, discarded in 1992, came back strong in 1996 in England.
He needs to be given confidence and aggressive field settings. Tell the lad to just let it rip.

height issue for naseem in n.z man. See post above. naseem will be more dangerous in sub continent.

 

[Khan12]

Jason Roy succeeding in the Ashes was another mighty prediction of his.

Lol. I remember that his test career has ended there as expected tbh. He was looking as good as Sehwag out there in SENA offcourse.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Lol. I remember that his test career has ended there as expected tbh. He was looking as good as Sehwag out there in SENA offcourse.

bro that hack trash would get exposed in odi too very soon. he is so overrated. jason roy and all their little hacks will get exposed badly in 2023. Stokes is a legit ATG beast though. root is class. rest are all hacks in their odi team.