[PICTURES/VIDEOS] Babar Azam’s failures against India

[VForVendetta]

Nadal and Djokovic?

Babar is Aisam-ul-Haq or whatever his name was if Kohli is Nadal.

Babar is simply not in the same league as Kohli. Never was and never will be. The quicker you accept it the less painful it will be.

Kohli belongs in the upper pantheons of batting greats like Sir Viv, Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting. The greats among greats.

Babar is several notches below that league. He is in the category of batsmen like Yousuf, Clarke, Mahela etc. A world class batsman but nothing more than that.

@Mamoon Man that's too extreme don't you think? I mean Qureshi was always a jobber in tennis world for God's sake, even in his prime. The man couldn't even achieve what Sanya Mirza was able to achieve. He should always be respected for what he did as he allowed extra exposure for his country, since up until his arrival entire world used to think outside India no one plays tennis In Subcontinent, even though that's remotely not true. Since the days of Sampras/Agassi tennis had a huge following in this part of the world.
I think the true analogy would be Murrey vs Novak. Murrey once upon a time was seen as a huge deal & British media used to forcefully add him with the other three & dub them as "fab four " "big four" or something like that. Even though for more rational fans it was painfully obvious while he was very good he simply wasn't good enough to be at other three guy's level.
Babar is the Murrey of his generation, his game. His media & fans hype him over the moon because for the longest period Pakistan waited for a decent all format batsman. Just like how British people & media for decades waited for a decent singles male player. Babar scores many inconsequential runs against minnows & other second tier attacks, but goes missing at major tournaments against top teams. Murrey used to dominante non grandslam majors, but come grandslams the dude used to reach semis & finals & miserably job to the big three. Babar is always forcefully compared with the fab four+ Rohit & his fangirls always predict how it's only a matter of time before he will eclipse them all. Murrey was always forcefully compared with the three & even his fangirls also used to predict & warn how it was only a matter of time before he eclipses them all. Former Pakistani cricketers remain very cautious while criticizing Babar as they don't want to get vilified by toxic fanbase & social media. Ex tennis legends also used to be very careful while commenting on Murrey since they didn't want to deal with the wrath of British media or the fangirls. Both are cult figures & result of desperation of their respective country. Murrey ended up as a footnote in tennis history, let's where Babar ends up after his career.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Are you certain about that? Based on last 1 year's performance can he still claim to be the premier #3 odi batsman in the world? Kohli in this same period has been more prolific, consistent & most significantly impactful.

yes, and thats during what is supposed to be Kholi's declining times. all i remember is Babar scoring against second string NZ in ODIs in summer. There is no way he is hte best number 3, not until Kholi retires

 

[Bhaijaan]

The ball was very near to body for a late cut, it was a misjudgment from babar.


View attachment 137653

Had the tendency of getting clean bowled vs Bharat

 

[nish_mate]

Had the tendency of getting clean bowled vs Bharat

Or getting bounced out, come on against vegetarian Indian Medium trundlers....

 

[heddie19]

It's funny I remember Babar played a really useful knock against New Zealand in the 2019 world cup when we had lost 1 or 2 early wickets. It was basically him and Haris Sohail who helped up steady the ship.

Mind you, it was a low scoring total (sub 250's) and we chased it in the final over. But there was something in the pitch for the bowlers which made the knock impressive. If I recall, he played spin pretty well that day.

I remember thinking that he was mentally much stronger than his cousin Umar Akmal (doesn't take much) and thought it was was an indication of his ability to absorb pressure. I guess I was wrong.

As for Kohli, there is no comparison. Superior hands down. One of the best CHOKERS in his peak.

Now it makes sense.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Chill. In future, Babar will have many more opportunities to perform against India. And i am sure someday he will avail them.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Now it makes sense.

If Kohli is a choker and an ATG, then Babar is a speck of dust next to his name.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Chill. In future, Babar will have many more opportunities to perform against India. And i am sure someday he will avail them.

He already availed a bit of it, because 50 runs which he scored recently will remain his highest score against India till next encounter.

 

[jnaveen1980]

INdia vs Pakistan last 6 years in ODIs Since Jan, 01, 2017 CT win. Look at the averages from both sides against each other. Babar and Rohit have played the highest against each other. 8 matches each. Look where he stands. Pandya, Dhawan, KL Rahul have all done better than him forget about Kohli/Rohit. Why are we jumping ahead everyone comparing directly with Kohli?

 

[160KPH]

Babar Fans in this thread: Babar has scored more runs and has had better tournament results recently and Kohli has been the world’s biggest choker in knockout matches throughout his whole career

Kohli Fans in this thread: : We love his vibe he’s so alpha Babar can not tie his laces

 

[Nikhil_cric]

INdia vs Pakistan last 6 years in ODIs Since Jan, 01, 2017 CT win. Look at the averages from both sides against each other. Babar and Rohit have played the highest against each other. 8 matches each. Look where he stands. Pandya, Dhawan, KL Rahul have all done better than him forget about Kohli/Rohit. Why are we jumping ahead everyone comparing directly with Kohli?

This actually shows that even Kohli is overrated somewhat. Hitman is the real monster.

Absolutely dominant and the true alpha in IND - PAK matches .

 

[jnaveen1980]

This actually shows that even Kohli is overrated somewhat. Hitman is the real monster.

Absolutely dominant and the true alpha in IND - PAK matches .

One of the glaring aspect in this stat is strike rate of pakistan batsmen. Shockingly average.

 

[Hitman]

If Kohli is a choker and an ATG, then Babar is a speck of dust next to his name.

True! Kohli has the heart of a lion.

 

[160KPH]

One of the glaring aspect in this stat is strike rate of pakistan batsmen. Shockingly average.

No doubt about it, but a win in a final in an ICC tournament is worth way more than any group stage match is. I would rather have the trophy win than all 8 of the next ODI’s played.

 

[160KPH]

INdia vs Pakistan last 6 years in ODIs Since Jan, 01, 2017 CT win. Look at the averages from both sides against each other. Babar and Rohit have played the highest against each other. 8 matches each. Look where he stands. Pandya, Dhawan, KL Rahul have all done better than him forget about Kohli/Rohit. Why are we jumping ahead everyone comparing directly with Kohli?

The reason we compare is because when it mattered most and the back was against the wall in the final of an ICC tournament, Babar Azam scored more than as Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, and Dohni put together.

We could care less about some group stage games, especially considering in some of those same tournaments, we went further in the tournament than your team did anyway.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The reason we compare is because when it mattered most and the back was against the wall in the final of an ICC tournament, Babar Azam scored more than as Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, and Dohni put together.

We could care less about some group stage games, especially considering in some of those same tournaments, we went further in the tournament than your team did anyway.

That was more like Fakar zaman and Amir show. You are attributing that win to Babar just for argument sake. Sure you can live on that one innings from 2017. So Pandya outscoring Babar means Pandya > Babar?

 

[BouncerGuy]

Babar's performance against India is way below par to be very honest. Babar has smashed all other teams but his gameplay against India is still missing. He is a quality quality batter but not the top tier one yet.

 

[160KPH]

That was more like Fakar zaman and Amir show. You are attributing that win to Babar just for argument sake. Sure you can live on that one innings from 2017. So Pandya outscoring Babar means Pandya > Babar?

For the record, I think Rohit and Kohli are both better than Babar. I just think the pendulum has swung too far the other way and Babar is now being massively underrated. Makes no sense to me to fault Babar’s record against one single team - India - while also not considering how massively Rohit and Kohli failed in the most important match in the last 10 years that Pakistan and India have played. I mean Kohli literally threw his wicket away on two consecutive balls! And the balls were not even that impressive.

 

[jnaveen1980]

No doubt about it, but a win in a final in an ICC tournament is worth way more than any group stage match is. I would rather have the trophy win than all 8 of the next ODI’s played.

Filter-coping ICC tournament-final from 6years back. Don't tell me you didn't care about losses in Asia cup.

 

[160KPH]

Filter-coping ICC tournament-final from 6years back. Don't tell me you didn't care about losses in Asia cup.

I don’t care about Asia Cup - in fact I don’t even think it should be a tournament.

 

[jnaveen1980]

For the record, I think Rohit and Kohli are both better than Babar. I just think the pendulum has swung too far the other way and Babar is now being massively underrated. Makes no sense to me to fault Babar’s record against one single team - India - while also not considering how massively Rohit and Kohli failed in the most important match in the last 10 years that Pakistan and India have played. I mean Kohli literally threw his wicket away on two consecutive balls! And the balls were not even that impressive.

Same way India can say Ravi Shastri is a better all rounder than Imran khan because India won benson hedges final. As i said using this logic we can say Elliott > ABDV and so on and so forth. Your comparison should not be based on one match which you happened to win just because it suits you. It has to be across multiple encounters. You may pretend that group stage matches are not important in world cups and ICC tournaments. But they are. You probably know it too. You sure don't use his 48 runs to compare all the legends in the world cricket do you? Very reason you compare with these guys is because of the runs he accumulated against B string sides. Otherwise you would be comparing Fakar Zaman with Kohli not Babar.

 

[160KPH]

Same way India can say Ravi Shastri is a better all rounder than Imran khan because India won benson hedges final. As i said using this logic we can say Elliott > ABDV and so on and so forth. Your comparison should not be based on one match which you happened to win just because it suits you. It has to be across multiple encounters. You may pretend that group stage matches are not important in world cups and ICC tournaments. But they are. You probably know it too. You sure don't use his 48 runs to compare all the legends in the world cricket do you? Very reason you compare with these guys is because of the runs he accumulated against B string sides. Otherwise you would be comparing Fakar Zaman with Kohli not Babar.

The argument this thread is making Babar has performed badly against India and somehow that hurts his ranking. The argument I’m making is that he performed well when it mattered most and his record against India doesn’t matter that much for his overall ranking.

You guys are the ones saying his performances against one singular team are so important. I think overall record is more important - but of course performance in knockout matches is obviously the MOST important.

I already told you Babar is worse than Kohli or Rohit in ODI’s! I just don’t think performance against one team should be held so much against a player.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The argument this thread is making Babar has performed badly against India and somehow that hurts his ranking. The argument I’m making is that he performed well when it mattered most and his record against India doesn’t matter that much for his overall ranking.

You guys are the ones saying his performances against one singular team are so important. I think overall record is more important - but of course performance in knockout matches is obviously the MOST important.

I already told you Babar is worse than Kohli or Rohit in ODI’s! I just don’t think performance against one team should be held so much against a player.

I don't disagree performance against one team should not be used to judge a player. I am judging by his lack of dominating and intimidating game against any side. He just plays safely keeping his wicket as long as he can. A slightly lesser version of Amla. He is an accumulator. Not a dominating next-gen batsman. Gill already has two three-figure knocks that are faster than any of Babar's 100.

 

[VForVendetta]

INdia vs Pakistan last 6 years in ODIs Since Jan, 01, 2017 CT win. Look at the averages from both sides against each other. Babar and Rohit have played the highest against each other. 8 matches each. Look where he stands. Pandya, Dhawan, KL Rahul have all done better than him forget about Kohli/Rohit. Why are we jumping ahead everyone comparing directly with Kohli?

This list truly proves how significant Fakhar & Hafeez were in Pak's only victory post Misbah era. The list also attributes to the fact that Imam is a jobber & Pak has been carrying this dud for no reason other than pure nepotism. KL is the odd one, he is one guy who has been mercilessly bashed & bullied by both Pak & Ind fanbases as if he is the worst cricketer to ever represent a top team. There are some hilarious threads like KL vs Imam still floating around here. Babar stays where his intent deserves, number of sixes & strike rate are pretty much up his alley. He will improve the average in future & add few milestones, but the strike rate & number of sixes will remain as miserable as they are.

 

[jnaveen1980]

This list truly proves how significant Fakhar & Hafeez were in Pak's only victory post Misbah era. The list also attributes to the fact that Imam is a jobber & Pak has been carrying this dud for no reason other than pure nepotism. KL is the odd one, he is one guy who has been mercilessly bashed & bullied by both Pak & Ind fanbases as if he is the worst cricketer to ever represent a top team. There are some hilarious threads like KL vs Imam still floating around here. Babar stays where his intent deserves, number of sixes & strike rate are pretty much up his alley. He will improve the average in future & add few milestones, but the strike rate & number of sixes will remain as miserable as they are.

As far as i can remember Indian fans are always fearful of aggressive six hitters. Jayasuriya is probably the most hated guy. We were left helpless when he and Kalu added 42 runs in first 3 overs in 1996 world cup preliminary round. It demoralizes a fan. There was one match Ijaz Ahmed went nuts against INdia's mohanty kind of bowlers. Fakhar despite being inferior to guys like Anwar, had bigger stage presence when in form than Babar. Ofcourse he is rarely in form. I don't think Babar can ever play an innings like 193 from Fakhar.

 

[VForVendetta]

As far as i can remember Indian fans are always fearful of aggressive six hitters. Jayasuriya is probably the most hated guy. We were left helpless when he and Kalu added 42 runs in first 3 overs in 1996 world cup preliminary round. It demoralizes a fan. There was one match Ijaz Ahmed went nuts against INdia's mohanty kind of bowlers. Fakhar despite being inferior to guys like Anwar, had bigger stage presence when in form than Babar. Ofcourse he is rarely in form. I don't think Babar can ever play an innings like 193 from Fakhar.

No, he can't ever play an innings like that, he can't even think about playing something like that, it's one of those things which are beyond his wildest imaginations.
You are right about six hitters & aggressive players always haunting not just Indian fans but also the players themselves. From my lifetime, guys like Salim Malik, Anwar, Izaz, Inzy, Sohail, Afridi,Moin,Nazir,Razzak always had this extra impact & caused anxiety. Even Shoaib Malik during 04-09 made Indians restless as he would always somehow raise his game & overperform against India at that particular period. Fakhar is the only guy in the current unit who can create panic amongst Indians, the lights of Babar, Imam & Rizwan have little to no effect on them. I think Pandya & Kuldeep's remarks really made it crystal clear, even though there have been mixed responses & I see many Indians also not appreciating their words. But they just really confirmed the same things that many of us have saying already, the current Pak batsmen do not cause any worry because Indians know they are predictable & gutless.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

It is not just a test series here, it is an ODI WC + plus last 4 years across all formats.

That innings in 160 odd chase is nothing in the context of tournament. I rate Babar's and Rizwan's 50s higher than that innings.

First, Virat will perform in a useless match. He will make 160 look like 260 in t20 overs due to his tuk-tuk and then he needs a no-ball and a free hit in order to chase that already chasable target so that delusional fans like you start believing that that was something out of this world because it wasn't.

Babar has chased 200+ totals 4,5 times in his career in T20is and twice with centuries. How many times this dud has ever done that?

He kept avg boosting his entire t20i career that is why couldn't win a single t20 trophy, not even for his star-studded franchise. That too in his 15 years of IPL. Wow yaar. Amazing


You don't deserve anything intelligent because what you're trying to do is to bring me down to your IQ level which is in double digits at max and then beat me with your experience, you will get the type of replies you deserve.

A lone warrior like Babar must never be compared to a player who won his only 2 tournaments by sitting in the lap of Tendu, Gambhir and Dhawan. Rest are single digit runs in crucial knockouts, I am not even talking about WTC final scores yet.

You're right Babar isn't in the same league as statspadder Kohli because Babar's runs always make his team win but since he doesn't have a PR team or following as the Mr. Anushka Sharma has, fools like you believe otherwise.

Babar has never won a t20 wc either, kohli was top scorer in 3 different t20 wcs and was mott twice. And kohli has performed in every t20 wc knockout match

 

[Statpadder Inc]

The reason we compare is because when it mattered most and the back was against the wall in the final of an ICC tournament, Babar Azam scored more than as Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, and Dohni put together.

We could care less about some group stage games, especially considering in some of those same tournaments, we went further in the tournament than your team did anyway.

A wc match will always have more value than a champions Trophy match. West Indies and new Zealand won a champions Trophy during the era of peak Australia, but no one remembers it. And India crushing pak in 2019, lead to them being knocked out in the group stage itself

 

[160KPH]

A wc match will always have more value than a champions Trophy match. West Indies and new Zealand won a champions Trophy during the era of peak Australia, but no one remembers it. And India crushing pak in 2019, lead to them being knocked out in the group stage itself

No one in the world would trade an ICC Champions Trophy where you beat your biggest rival just for a win in a World Cup group game. You think Afghanistan wouldn’t trade their win against England the other day for the ICC Champions trophy? We all know the answer.

 

[mominsaigol]

If Kohli is a choker and an ATG, then Babar is a speck of dust next to his name.

I don't get the whole kohli is a chocker but babar is a goat.

Kohli has a habit of failing as well as chocking, his horrible 50 of 42 coat India the game against England in 2022 semi final of the t20 Cup I agree.

But people are acting as if babar is some Ben Stokes legend. Babar vanished in Asia cup final and t20 world cup final lol, and his 39 of 34 was horrifically bad against Australia in the 2021 t20 semi final against Australia, we were a good 25 runs short because of Babar.

Kohli has just been in more semi's or finals them Babar because India is a gun team that consistently reaches semi's whereas the last time Pakistan even reached a world cup sf was in 2011, but babar has chocked in every game besides one semi final of the t20 2022 world cup he played against NZ.

3 tournaments babar has chocked, not failed, genuinely chocked lol.

 

[160KPH]

I don't get the whole kohli is a chocker nonsense but babar is a goat.

Kohli has a habit of failing as well as chocking, his horrible 50 of 42 coat India the game against England in 2022 semi final of the t20 Cup I agree.

But people are acting as if babar is some Ben Stokes legend. Babar vanished in Asia cup final and t20 world cup final lol, and his 39 of 34 was horrifically bad against Australia in the 2021 t20 semi final against Australia, we were a good 25 runs short because of Babar.

Kohli has just been in more semi's or finals them Babar because India is a gun team that consistently reaches semi's whereas the last time Pakistan even reached a world cup sf was in 2011, but babar has chocked in every game besides one semi final of the t20 2022 world cup he played against NZ.

3 tournaments babar has chocked, not failed, genuinely chocked lol.

It’s a different ball game when you talk about all formats. Kohli is legitimately good at T20 and doesn’t choke but he’s a massive choke artists in ODI knockouts. You can determine this by looking at what a player averages in normal matches compared to what they average in knockout matches. Kohli’s average is almost half of what he usually gets. Babar’s average in ODI knockouts is 84, but he has yet to play many so you can’t judge yet. The GOAT’s like Vivian Richard’s improve their stats during knockout games.

Kohli literally goes from averaging a legendary 57 for his career to an absolutely pathetic 28 in ODI knockout matches. Those just aren’t GOAT numbers. Also there’s a big sample size of 16 matches and even that small average is carried by some not ours.

He also failed in both ICC Test Championship Finals. Though that may just because he is absolutely horrid when playing in England - the birthplace of cricket. So in 2/3 formats he’s a massive failure when it matters the most: Sachin and Vivian would never have failed like this. Hell, Ricky Ponting didn’t fail like this.

 

[160KPH]

I don't get the whole kohli is a chocker nonsense but babar is a goat.

Kohli has a habit of failing as well as chocking, his horrible 50 of 42 coat India the game against England in 2022 semi final of the t20 Cup I agree.

But people are acting as if babar is some Ben Stokes legend. Babar vanished in Asia cup final and t20 world cup final lol, and his 39 of 34 was horrifically bad against Australia in the 2021 t20 semi final against Australia, we were a good 25 runs short because of Babar.

Kohli has just been in more semi's or finals them Babar because India is a gun team that consistently reaches semi's whereas the last time Pakistan even reached a world cup sf was in 2011, but babar has chocked in every game besides one semi final of the t20 2022 world cup he played against NZ.

3 tournaments babar has chocked, not failed, genuinely chocked lol.

For me, Babar is not a GOAT, but Kohli is certainly not a GOAT either.

The top tier is the Sachins and Vivian Richards.
The second tier is the Kohlis.
Babar is below that tier.

You just can’t be in the highest tier if you spent your whole career failing at the most important matches.

 

[pillionrider]

It’s a different ball game when you talk about all formats. Kohli is legitimately good at T20 and doesn’t choke but he’s a massive choke artists in ODI knockouts. You can determine this by looking at what a player averages in normal matches compared to what they average in knockout matches. Kohli’s average is almost half of what he usually gets. Babar’s average in ODI knockouts is 84, but he has yet to play many so you can’t judge yet. The GOAT’s like Vivian Richard’s improve their stats during knockout games.

Kohli literally goes from averaging a legendary 57 for his career to an absolutely pathetic 28 in ODI knockout matches. Those just aren’t GOAT numbers. Also there’s a big sample size of 16 matches and even that small average is carried by some not ours.

He also failed in both ICC Test Championship Finals. Though that may just because he is absolutely horrid when playing in England - the birthplace of cricket. So in 2/3 formats he’s a massive failure when it matters the most: Sachin and Vivian would never have failed like this. Hell, Ricky Ponting didn’t fail like this.

All that is fine, but I blame Pakistan for being such a pathetic team in ODIs. Had Pak been good enough to make the knockouts more often, Virat would have improved his record to GOAT levels

 

[160KPH]

All that is fine, but I blame Pakistan for being such a pathetic team in ODIs. Had Pak been good enough to make the knockouts more often, Virat would have improved his record to GOAT levels

Maybe Pakistani is purposefully stopping Kohli from entering the highest tier

 

[pillionrider]

Just checked Kohli's record in T20 knockouts. He has to be the greatest of GOATS.

5 knockouts.
S/R 152
Averaging 165

 

[mominsaigol]

For me, Babar is not a GOAT, but Kohli is certainly not a GOAT either.

The top tier is the Sachins and Vivian Richards.
The second tier is the Kohlis.
Babar is below that tier.

You just can’t be in the highest tier if you spent your whole career failing at the most important matches.

I agree with that to some extent kohli himself admitted he's Below Sachin.

As for viv, Thing is to be viv and Bradman you need to be the best player of your era by miles, Kohli wasn't the best by miles. De Villiers was superior to him in certain conditions, Rohit is superior to him as a tournament player atleast in odi and superior ro kohli in asian conditons only.

but kohli is still overall best of his era, some players are only marginally better then him in certain conditions or against certain opposition but not overall better when you look at everything. Besides viv and Bradman, I don't think anyone will reach that, Even pointing and some other players of sachin's era surpassed him in some certain conditions or settings but they weren't superior to him overall.

So he's still a goat lol, Babar isn't the best of his era at all nor is he superior in certain settings. How many odi knock outs has Babar even played for that 84? Only time I've seen Babar in a semi final and final was in ct 2017 where others outperformed him.

Where is this 84 metric coming from? That part I don't understand.

Kohli for me is a goat because theirs genuinely no one more complete then him, to argue that someone is better then him you need to take very biased specific examples to prove it, same with Sachin.

With babar it's easy to disprove him from even being top 5 or top 10 of his era lol.

 

[160KPH]

Just checked Kohli's record in T20 knockouts. He has to be the greatest of GOATS.

5 knockouts.
S/R 152
Averaging 165

GOAT T20 batsmen no doubt.

 

[160KPH]

Kohli for me is a goat because theirs genuinely no one more complete then him, to argue that someone is better then him you need to take very biased specific examples to prove it, same with Sachin.

It’s not specific examples, it’s literally the most important games of a person’s career. You guys all criticize Babar for scoring in “meaningless bilateral” but then make excuses for Kohli failing massively in the most important games you can ever play - all ODI knockouts and the Test Championship finals.

Also, GOAT means Greatest of All Time. There’s no argument for Kohli being the greatest of all time when Vivian Richards and Sachin are both way ahead of him in ODI and Test. Vivian Richards would absolutely dominated in T20’s if they were around when he was playing.

Also you’re making my argument for me. ABD has better stats and played better in knockout rounds than Kohli ever did. The fact that you could make the argument ABD was better than Kohli shows how Kohli wasn’t even the most dominant in his era and can’t be considered GOAT.

 

[Saanji]

It’s not specific examples, it’s literally the most important games of a person’s career. You guys all criticize Babar for scoring in “meaningless bilateral” but then make excuses for Kohli failing massively in the most important games you can ever play - all ODI knockouts and the Test Championship finals.

Also, GOAT means Greatest of All Time. There’s no argument for Kohli being the greatest of all time when Vivian Richards and Sachin are both way ahead of him in ODI and Test. Vivian Richards would absolutely dominated in T20’s if they were around when he was playing.

Also you’re making my argument for me. ABD has better stats and played better in knockout rounds than Kohli ever did. The fact that you could make the argument ABD was better than Kohli shows how Kohli wasn’t even the most dominant in his era and can’t be considered GOAT.

Thread is about babar azam and primary discussion is about the kohli.
Enough said ..

 

[160KPH]

Thread is about babar azam and primary discussion is about the kohli.
Enough said ..

The thread was about how Babar Azam is bad for not playing that well against one opposition. I exposed the double standards for Kohli fans, and now you are emotional.

 

[RidiculousMan]

This maybe the first and last fifty of Babar's career against India.

The teams don't play bilateral against each other. Doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime soon as well.

Babar is probably going to face India only in big occasions like World Cup in ODI format. He may play a few or a couple more games depending on his retirement age. The pressure these games have, where Pakistan is almost always on the receiving end with neutral or Indian crowd support. It's highly unlikely for Babar to score a big match winning knock against India.

Maybe Champions Trophy 2025 would be that opportunity with home crowd and good batting pitches backing him.

Guess we'll find out in some years.

 

[mominsaigol]

It’s not specific examples, it’s literally the most important games of a person’s career. You guys all criticize Babar for scoring in “meaningless bilateral” but then make excuses for Kohli failing massively in the most important games you can ever play - all ODI knockouts and the Test Championship finals.

Also, GOAT means Greatest of All Time. There’s no argument for Kohli being the greatest of all time when Vivian Richards and Sachin are both way ahead of him in ODI and Test. Vivian Richards would absolutely dominated in T20’s if they were around when he was playing.

Also you’re making my argument for me. ABD has better stats and played better in knockout rounds than Kohli ever did. The fact that you could make the argument ABD was better than Kohli shows how Kohli wasn’t even the most dominant in his era and can’t be considered GOAT.

First of answer my question, where is this 84 coming from? I only remember seeing babar play in the semi final of ct and final. In which he was outperformed by hafeez, azhar and fakhar. He wasn't even present much in the England semi final. Which other odi finals or semi finals did he play? Explain where does that 84 exactly come from?

Secondly goat is used to describe proper true ATG's when used in context of cricket. Context is very very important and more important then meanings.

The word dying means close to death but if I say I'm dying of laughter it doesn't mean I'm close to death because I laughed. Don't ignore context and meaning in sentences. Secondly by your logic even viv and Sachin aren't goats, only Don Bradman is since their can only be one Greatest of all time not multiple if you take the meaning at full face value.

No I'm not, you're strawmanning me through and through and you know it. Their were players > Sachin in certain conditons in his era lol. Pointing can be considered greater in 2003 then sachin same way de Villiers can be considered better then kohli in world cup aspects,

That doesn't mean de Villiers is overall better nor pointing overall better. They don't come close lol even though both are goats (Yes understand the context of when people say goats)

I don't know what arguments people make but kohli is top 1 in his era with only a few people surpassing him in certain scenarios only, heck even viv was surpassed by sunny gavaskar in certain test scenarios but no one in their right mind would put sunny even in licking boots distance of viv, same way no one would claim babar is on par with kohli.

Babar isn't even top 10 batsmen of his era, Kohli is top 1 with very few players surpassing him in only certain conditions like rohit > Kphli as a tournament player but that argument can go both ways, as no one on the planet not even sachin is superior when it comes to kohli playing against Pakistan.

Certain scenarios mean nothing, it's all about overall player. Babar as far as I'm aware probably has his stats inflated because he went not out in the semi finals against England cricket 2017 scoring a winning boundary and less then 10 runs . Other then that, idk which semi finals or finals he played in odi lol, please enlighten me.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

It’s not specific examples, it’s literally the most important games of a person’s career. You guys all criticize Babar for scoring in “meaningless bilateral” but then make excuses for Kohli failing massively in the most important games you can ever play - all ODI knockouts and the Test Championship finals.

Also, GOAT means Greatest of All Time. There’s no argument for Kohli being the greatest of all time when Vivian Richards and Sachin are both way ahead of him in ODI and Test. Vivian Richards would absolutely dominated in T20’s if they were around when he was playing.

Also you’re making my argument for me. ABD has better stats and played better in knockout rounds than Kohli ever did. The fact that you could make the argument ABD was better than Kohli shows how Kohli wasn’t even the most dominant in his era and can’t be considered GOAT.

This is not how it works.

In cricket, there is the "average" and there is "impact". Two go side by side and one without the other is just as useless.

The performance in knockouts was added mostly by fans (not just for Kohli but for any other batsmen) to actually somehow make their players seem less than what their output was or make their output seem greater than what it was.

A classic case was of Hashim Amla. A stellar ODI career but no appreciable knockout performances. People wanted to label him ATG but he simply wasn't an ATG because he had no impact despite scoring 100s. But the only way to put his career down, people asked for performances in knockouts.

A reverse example is of Inzimam ul Haq. A great ODI player but nowhere near ATG. But people wanted to label him as some sort of ATG so they continuously threw the NZ semifinal in 1992 as a performance that includes him as best ever. But his overall career and average was well short of ATG.

These arbitrary "knockout performances" have been included to somehow overrate and underrate personal favorites.

The eyesight test still stands. And with that the law of average and impact.

No one can say with a straight face that Babar greater than Kohli or Rohit and no amount of stat padding or feasting on minnow and getting an average of even 70 will change that fact that Babar is a rung below those batsmen.

Babar is a great player but he is of Amla mould. No matter how many hundreds he hits, most of them will not be impactful as he simply doesn't have the gears to deliver an impactful hundred (Of course, I can argue he does have the gears, but is seflish so doesn't use them until he gets to his 100, but you get my point). Babar's impact can be gauged from the fact that he chased 371 and ended up with a useless 100 and Pakistan at 330 runs. Babar's ceiling is even less than that of Rohit as he cannot even hit one 200 in ODIs while Rohit alone has 3 with an imperious 264 that Babar probably couldn't reach if he bats twice in the same innings.

Kohli is an ATG ODI player regardless of what he has done in knockouts and when he walks to the crease people know if he scores a century, India will definitely win the game. All his iconic knocks are with high degree of impact. His 183, his T20 performance vs Rauf, all of them point to his greatness. He will end up an ODI ATG regardless of whether he performs in this World Cup or not.

But let me tell you something. There is another term in cricket which is called "being soft."

Babar is "soft" and "Kohli 'is not and this is a critical point to consider.

This is exactly what they used to put Kohli down in Tests and T20s and he managed to overcome all those obstacles because of his sheer desire and willpower and "wanting to be the best". They said he cannot play in England, and he came back and improved. They said he cannot play in Australia and he beat them in their own backyard. They said he cannot play T20I and he has the best performance in T20 Knockouts by a batsmen.

Kohli is simply not soft. He will go down with a fight. You want him to prove himself in a knockout. That will also happen in this World Cup at some point. Simply because the guy knows what it takes to excel. Infact, there is greater chance of an iconic Kohli knock somewhere in the World Cup than Babar chasing any 300 plus score and leading his team to victory. Even Rizwan has better claims than Babar Azam for that.

This is not a diatribe against Babar.

But I have to repeat every time, there is no shame in Babar being second best to Kohli and Rohit.

Not many batsmen in the world are better than them. I have to count them on my fingers to find them.

But Babar fans be like, 60 average, consistency and that means best in the world.

 

[pillionrider]

First of answer my question, where is this 84 coming from? I only remember seeing babar play in the semi final of ct and final. In which he was outperformed by hafeez, azhar and fakhar. He wasn't even present much in the England semi final. Which other odi finals or semi finals did he play? Explain where does that 84 exactly come from?

It's the CT 17 semis and finals. It's from sample size of literally two.

Semis he came in at 118/1 chasing 212 and scored 38* (45)
Final - came in at 128/1 and scored 46 (52)

84 divided by 1 = 84

 

[jnaveen1980]

This is not how it works.

In cricket, there is the "average" and there is "impact". Two go side by side and one without the other is just as useless.

The performance in knockouts was added mostly by fans (not just for Kohli but for any other batsmen) to actually somehow make their players seem less than what their output was or make their output seem greater than what it was.

A classic case was of Hashim Amla. A stellar ODI career but no appreciable knockout performances. People wanted to label him ATG but he simply wasn't an ATG because he had no impact despite scoring 100s. But the only way to put his career down, people asked for performances in knockouts.

A reverse example is of Inzimam ul Haq. A great ODI player but nowhere near ATG. But people wanted to label him as some sort of ATG so they continuously threw the NZ semifinal in 1992 as a performance that includes him as best ever. But his overall career and average was well short of ATG.

These arbitrary "knockout performances" have been included to somehow overrate and underrate personal favorites.

The eyesight test still stands. And with that the law of average and impact.

No one can say with a straight face that Babar greater than Kohli or Rohit and no amount of stat padding or feasting on minnow and getting an average of even 70 will change that fact that Babar is a rung below those batsmen.

Babar is a great player but he is of Amla mould. No matter how many hundreds he hits, most of them will not be impactful as he simply doesn't have the gears to deliver an impactful hundred (Of course, I can argue he does have the gears, but is seflish so doesn't use them until he gets to his 100, but you get my point). Babar's impact can be gauged from the fact that he chased 371 and ended up with a useless 100 and Pakistan at 330 runs. Babar's ceiling is even less than that of Rohit as he cannot even hit one 200 in ODIs while Rohit alone has 3 with an imperious 264 that Babar probably couldn't reach if he bats twice in the same innings.

Kohli is an ATG ODI player regardless of what he has done in knockouts and when he walks to the crease people know if he scores a century, India will definitely win the game. All his iconic knocks are with high degree of impact. His 183, his T20 performance vs Rauf, all of them point to his greatness. He will end up an ODI ATG regardless of whether he performs in this World Cup or not.

But let me tell you something. There is another term in cricket which is called "being soft." This is exactly what they used to put Kohli down in Tests and T20s and he managed to overcome all those obstacles because of his sheer desire and willpower and "wanting to be the best". They said he cannot play in England, and he came back and improved. They said he cannot play in Australia and he beat them in their own backyard. They said he cannot play T20I and he has the best performance in T20 Knockouts by a batsmen.

Kohli is simply not soft. He will go down with a fight. You want him to prove himself in a knockout. That will also happen in this World Cup at some point. Simply because the guy knows what it takes to excel. Infact, there is greater chance of an iconic Kohli knock somewhere in the World Cup than Babar chasing any 300 plus score and leading his team to victory. Even Rizwan has better claims than Babar Azam for that.

This is not a diatribe against Babar.

But I have to repeat every time, there is no shame in Babar being second best to Kohli and Rohit.

Not many batsmen in the world are better than them. I have to count them on my fingers to find them.

But Babar fans be like, 60 average, consistency and that means best in the world.

Imam and Babar have played against top sides 53 matches. Apart from strike rate they are more or less the same. If anything Imam ul haq has hit more sixes than him

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Imam and Babar have played against top sides 53 matches. Apart from strike rate they are more or less the same. If anything Imam ul haq has hit more sixes than him

Iman has more sixes because Imam gets criticized more and more is asked of him because of two reasons.

1. People believe he was a nepotistic selection. So he has to prove himself harder than other 10 players on the pitch that his selection was based on merit and not relationships (dislcaimer : I am not saying it was or it wasn't).


2. Babar can get away with any style of play because people believe he is some sort of Kohli level batsmen. Even if Babar plays at an 80 average, people have excuses like difficult pitch, quality of bowling, he will cover up ground later. If Imam plays at 80 SR, he is an antique era opener, he is useless, he is parchi etc. Babar has had so much leverage in his entire career that if any other batsmen was given this much leverage, there would have been a drastic improvement.


Imam has to hit 6s, has to bat at SR of 100 and hit a 100 every odd game to justify his place in the side.

Babar can come in at 3, jay walk the entire innings and score 100 of 87 balls every 4 or 5 games and crowd will go goo goo and gaa gaa as if Babar is next coming of Lara or something.

 

[mominsaigol]

It's the CT 17 semis and finals. It's from sample size of literally two.

Semis he came in at 118/1 chasing 212 and scored 38* (45)
Final - came in at 128/1 and scored 46 (52)

84 divided by 1 = 84

Yh so it's not exactly a metric for claiming babar is some GOAT pressure performer

 

[160KPH]

Yh so it's not exactly a metric for claiming babar is some GOAT pressure performer lol.

This is what I said in my original post:

“Babar’s average in ODI knockouts is 84, but he has yet to play many so you can’t judge yet.”

On the other hand this is what I said about Kohli:

“Kohli literally goes from averaging a legendary 57 for his career to an absolutely pathetic 28 in ODI knockout matches. Those just aren’t GOAT numbers. Also there’s a big sample size of 16 matches and even that small average is carried by some not ours.”

Also literally in the next post I said:

For me, Babar is not a GOAT, but Kohli is certainly not a GOAT either.

The top tier is the Sachins and Vivian Richards.
The second tier is the Kohlis.
Babar is below that tier.

You just can’t be in the highest tier if you spent your whole career failing at the most important matches.

 

[160KPH]

@mominsaigol I quite literally said the exact opposite of what you’re claiming I said..

 

[VForVendetta]

Iman has more sixes because Imam gets criticized more and more is asked of him because of two reasons.

1. People believe he was a nepotistic selection. So he has to prove himself harder than other 10 players on the pitch that his selection was based on merit and not relationships (dislcaimer : I am not saying it was or it wasn't).


2. Babar can get away with any style of play because people believe he is some sort of Kohli level batsmen. Even if Babar plays at an 80 average, people have excuses like difficult pitch, quality of bowling, he will cover up ground later. If Imam plays at 80 SR, he is an antique era opener, he is useless, he is parchi etc. Babar has had so much leverage in his entire career that if any other batsmen was given this much leverage, there would have been a drastic improvement.


Imam has to hit 6s, has to bat at SR of 100 and hit a 100 every odd game to justify his place in the side.

Babar can come in at 3, jay walk the entire innings and score 100 of 87 balls every 4 or 5 games and crowd will go goo goo and gaa gaa as if Babar is next coming of Lara or something.

But the problem is, does Imam really try? When was the last time he had a knock of 50+ with strike rate over 100? Forget 100 when was the last time it was over 90 while scoring a 50? When was the last time he hit a sixer? If the guy was genuine & really wanted to improve himself then he wouldn't show such audacity by claiming to open "Parchi brand" or something like that. The way he talks in front of media, the way he interacts at socail media gives us an image of an entitled diva who thinks he is good enough & doesn't need to improve. The reason the guy thinks like that is because the team has a horrible laughable culture where they celebrate every mediocre milestone. His uncle & best mate are running the show, everytime he scores a plodding 50, the team cuts a cake. Seriously why would he even try to improve in such minnow minded environment?

 

[mominsaigol]

@mominsaigol I quite literally said the exact opposite of what you’re claiming I said..

Ik what you said, when did I say you're saying babar > Kohli? Ik you're comparing kohli not being a goat due to a metric performance but it simply does not work like that.

The tournament metric was used to simply downplay some cricketers like kohli but overhype other cricketers like inzi.

You could say the same for Tendulkar. He literally vanishes in world cup finals which is the most important match of your entire career. More then semi, more then anything.

He vanished in 2003 and in 2011, besides his 2003 knock against Pakistan against a end of the line burnt out wasim and waqar and the Sri lanka match losing century in 1996, what has he done?

Shpuld we start using that metric and call Tendulkar a terrible player? Because he always left India in the 2 most important match of their entire career?

The tournament metric is nonsense. You're free to have your opinion but everyone knows full well kohli is the best player of his era, same with viv and Sachin and Bradman.

Minus Bradman everyone else has had one or 2 players outperform in certain scenarios like de Villiers > Kohli, Pointing > Tendulkar, but it doesn't change them being overall better.

If kohli is not a goat then no one from this era is. And if your context is greatest of all time, then their can only be one and only Bradman fits that.

I read fully well, it's just people get defensive when certain arguments get exposed so they keep backtracking or acting like certain argumentative events didn't occur lol

 

[VForVendetta]

“Kohli literally goes from averaging a legendary 57 for his career to an absolutely pathetic 28 in ODI knockout matches. Those just aren’t GOAT numbers. Also there’s a big sample size of 16 matches and even that small average is carried by some not ours.”

Hey, don't want to interfere between you & Momin. You guys carry on whatever you are doing. I just had a little query, if you would be kind enough to answer that. Like the bold parts elude, from where does that sample size come from? By my count, Kohli has played 10 odi knockout matches so far, 6 in world cup, 4 in champions trophy, where do the rest come from? If you take asia cup into account then it makes 11. How did you reach to 16?

 

[mominsaigol]

Hey, don't want to interfere between you & Momin. You guys carry on whatever you are doing. I just had a little query, if you would be kind enough to answer that. Like the bold parts elude, from where does that sample size come from? By my count, Kohli has played 10 odi knockout matches so far, 6 in world cup, 4 in champions trophy, where do the rest come from? If you take asia cup into account then it makes 11. How did you reach to 16?

I checked kohli's avg. He averages 51 in all his 16 knockout stages he's ever played, which include wtc, odi and t20 and Asia cup.

As for the 11 odi stages he averages 40, if you remove Asia cup then 34 in the 10, his odi wc record may be poor compared to other records but he's never falled Below 30

 

[VForVendetta]

I checked kohli's avg. He averages 51 in all his 16 knockout stages he's ever played, which include wtc, odi and t20 and Asia cup.

As for the 11 odi stages he averages 40, if you remove Asia cup then 34 in the 10, his odi wc record may be poor compared to other records but he's never falled Below 30

So from where do the Babar fans get these random numbers like 16 matches & 28 averages. He is not the first guy I have seen throwing those numbers, other Babar fans also use this whenever they want to diss Kohli. Per my knowledge, Kohli has taken part in 10 odi knockout matches, if you include Asia cup, then it's 12. But since he didn't have to bat in the latest final, so we can count 11 innings which is what I mentioned in the previous post. I didn't even check his numbers on those matches, so don't know how much he averages. But my query is how did they reach to this imaginary 16 matches where in reality he played 12 & batted in 11?

 

[Saanji]

So from where do the Babar fans get these random numbers like 16 matches & 28 averages. He is not the first guy I have seen throwing those numbers, other Babar fans also use this whenever they want to diss Kohli. Per my knowledge, Kohli has taken part in 10 odi knockout matches, if you include Asia cup, then it's 12. But since he didn't have to bat in the latest final, so we can count 11 innings which is what I mentioned in the previous post. I didn't even check his numbers on those matches, so don't know how much he averages. But my query is how did they reach to this imaginary 16 matches where in reality he played 12 & batted in 11?

You have to put another layer of filter. Use the steps:
1. Identify where all kohli has failed
2. Is there a pattern possible.? Yes.
3. Goto cricinfo statsguru and use those filters.
4. Is average below 40?
5. No ? Then use more filters to bring down average below 40.
6. Keep repeating till average can be brought as low as possible
6. Success

 

[VForVendetta]

I checked kohli's avg. He averages 51 in all his 16 knockout stages he's ever played, which include wtc, odi and t20 and Asia cup.

As for the 11 odi stages he averages 40, if you remove Asia cup then 34 in the 10, his odi wc record may be poor compared to other records but he's never falled Below 30

Actually if you include all of the 50 wc, t20 wc, ct, wtc & ac knock out matches then he has played 19 matches in total where he batted in 20 innings. It goes like this :
50 wc : 6 matches, 6 innings
t20 wc : 4 matches, 4 innings
ct : 4 matches, 4 innings
wtc : 2 matches, 4 innings
50 asia cup : 2 matches, 1 innings
t20 asia cup : 1 match, 1 innings

 

[mominsaigol]

So from where do the Babar fans get these random numbers like 16 matches & 28 averages. He is not the first guy I have seen throwing those numbers, other Babar fans also use this whenever they want to diss Kohli. Per my knowledge, Kohli has taken part in 10 odi knockout matches, if you include Asia cup, then it's 12. But since he didn't have to bat in the latest final, so we can count 11 innings which is what I mentioned in the previous post. I didn't even check his numbers on those matches, so don't know how much he averages. But my query is how did they reach to this imaginary 16 matches where in reality he played 12 & batted in 11?

Idk all the numbers exactly either tbf, I hate the stats arguments in general, it's a poor metric to determine the caliber of a player overall, amd people just abuse the metric beyond belief.

For people they love they'll single out certain metrics to make them seem as over achievers, in the case of kohli they'll invent new metrics to try to make it seem kohli is bad at certain moments and they'll hope the other person doesn't use Google.

Idk all of kohli's metrics but I do know the moment he said babar averages 84 in knockout stages, a massive piece of the puzzle was missing

 

[mominsaigol]

So from where do the Babar fans get these random numbers like 16 matches & 28 averages. He is not the first guy I have seen throwing those numbers, other Babar fans also use this whenever they want to diss Kohli. Per my knowledge, Kohli has taken part in 10 odi knockout matches, if you include Asia cup, then it's 12. But since he didn't have to bat in the latest final, so we can count 11 innings which is what I mentioned in the previous post. I didn't even check his numbers on those matches, so don't know how much he averages. But my query is how did they reach to this imaginary 16 matches where in reality he played 12 & batted in 11?

Uhh, they probably make up numbers and hope the other person doesn't Google search ig.

Either that or some shady site is telling them otherwise and they don't check credible sites like cricinfo

 

[VForVendetta]

Uhh, they probably make up numbers and hope the other person doesn't Google search ig.

Either that or some shady site is telling them otherwise and they don't check credible sites like cricinfo

It would be very unfortunate if they make up those numbers, specially in this age where within seconds you can verify anything.

 

[mominsaigol]

It would be very unfortunate if they make up those numbers, specially in this age where within seconds you can verify anything.

That is true but let's be honest, do most people bother checking?

He used that argument against me and I didn't notice it until you told me lol. I just noticed the babar azam statistic.

That was ironically the only argument I was slightly stuck on , the others I countered. But now that you told, that argument wasn't even an argument at all, just a lie lol.

 

[topspin]

But the problem is, does Imam really try? When was the last time he had a knock of 50+ with strike rate over 100? Forget 100 when was the last time it was over 90 while scoring a 50? When was the last time he hit a sixer? If the guy was genuine & really wanted to improve himself then he wouldn't show such audacity by claiming to open "Parchi brand" or something like that. The way he talks in front of media, the way he interacts at socail media gives us an image of an entitled diva who thinks he is good enough & doesn't need to improve. The reason the guy thinks like that is because the team has a horrible laughable culture where they celebrate every mediocre milestone. His uncle & best mate are running the show, everytime he scores a plodding 50, the team cuts a cake. Seriously why would he even try to improve in such minnow minded environment?

Spot on. Do you remember when he once said "I'm automatic selection". That tells you all you need to know about his attitude. This is one of the main reasons why I can't stand him. Even top class players don't come out with such statements.

 

[VForVendetta]

Idk all the numbers exactly either tbf, I hate the stats arguments in general, it's a poor metric to determine the caliber of a player overall, amd people just abuse the metric beyond belief.

For people they love they'll single out certain metrics to make them seem as over achievers, in the case of kohli they'll invent new metrics to try to make it seem kohli is bad at certain moments and they'll hope the other person doesn't use Google.

Idk all of kohli's metrics but I do know the moment he said babar averages 84 in knockout stages, a massive piece of the puzzle was missing

Regarding Babar, quite a few of his fans have tried to lecture me here on those two matches, like how "significant" his accumulating 30/40's were on those matches. So Fakhar & Hafeez who went berserk in both matches & completely unsettled Eng & Ind needed anchoring from Babar! As if Azhar's anchoring wasn't good enough. I have also been lectured about Babar's "impact" in the wc wins against SA & Eng. Imagine Pak scoring 350 with Hafeez scoring a 85 with strike rate of 135 & Sarfaraz getting a 50 of 125 sr. But you are giving credit to Babar for his 60 of 95 sr! Then in the SA match the only reason Pak crossed 300 was because Haris was on mood & made a 90 of 150+ sr. But, no it was due to Babar's anchoring 70 with some mediocre 85 sr! I mean there's no limit of delusions when it comes to certain fans. Context goes completely out of picture whenever he needs to be defended. In both matches Pak actually gained momentum when the guy was dismissed because he was going nowhere.

 

[mominsaigol]

Regarding Babar, quite a few of his fans have tried to lecture me here on those two matches, like how "significant" his accumulating 30/40's were on those matches. So Fakhar & Hafeez who went berserk in both matches & completely unsettled Eng & Ind needed anchoring from Babar! As if Azhar's anchoring wasn't good enough. I have also been lectured about Babar's "impact" in the wc wins against SA & Eng. Imagine Pak scoring 350 with Hafeez scoring a 85 with strike rate of 135 & Sarfaraz getting a 50 of 125 sr. But you are giving credit to Babar for his 60 of 95 sr! Then in the SA match the only reason Pak crossed 300 was because Haris was on mood & made a 90 of 150+ sr. But, no it was due to Babar's anchoring 70 with some mediocre 85 sr! I mean there's no limit of delusions when it comes to certain fans. Context goes completely out of picture whenever he needs to be defended. In both matches Pak actually gained momentum when the guy was dismissed because he was going nowhere.

Only match winnings innings babar has ever played is his innings against NZ in world cups and his innings against India in 2021 t20 world cup.

The NZ innings wasn't a bash, it was a slow as molasses innings but it was a good one cause he hung in their when wickets were falling and he needed to stay otherwise wed have lost.

The t20 India game was good but its the same as going on merry ways.

He's never actually attacked on gone after A string bowling attacks, only B strings.

He's always had hand holding from people like fakhar, Haris sohail even against Nepal he had hand holding from chacha lol, Babar didn't go Berserk until he already reached him 100, when in reality he could have easily tonked a 50 ball 100 if he wanted to . The curators made sure to make the pitch as non spin friendly as possible hence easy picking of medium pacers for babar.

 

[VForVendetta]

That is true but let's be honest, do most people bother checking?

He used that argument against me and I didn't notice it until you told me lol. I just noticed the babar azam statistic.

That was ironically the only argument I was slightly stuck on , the others I countered. But now that you told, that argument wasn't even an argument at all, just a lie lol.

I don't think you really need to check to confirm. We are talking about Babar, Kohli, Rohit or ABD, guys who have been pretty recent, have been featured for roughly about 10/15 years. Now if it was someone like Sachin /Lara, then yeah you need to check, since you have to go back as much as 30 years. The data I provided you regarding Kohli's knock out matches I literally gave you from my memory. Now if I want to check his numbers like average, sr then I will have to dig further.

 

[VForVendetta]

Spot on. Do you remember when he once said "I'm automatic selection". That tells you all you need to know about his attitude. This is one of the main reasons why I can't stand him. Even top class players don't come out with such statements.

Well at least the guy was honest, you gotta give him credit for that. His attitude will continue the same as long as his uncle & mate remain in charge.

 

[mominsaigol]

I don't think you really need to check to confirm. We are talking about Babar, Kohli, Rohit or ABD, guys who have been pretty recent, have been featured for roughly about 10/15 years. Now if it was someone like Sachin /Lara, then yeah you need to check, since you have to go back as much as 30 years. The data I provided you regarding Kohli's knock out matches I literally gave you from my memory. Now if I want to check his numbers like average, sr then I will have to dig further.

I already know kohli is a goat lol. He just shoved an 84 avg metric on me to prove why kohli is not a GOAT .

Truth is kohli is no 1 of his era. Cricketers only surpass him on certain metrics. Like you can argue de Villiers on his day is 100x more impactful, Rohit is better on Indian conditons etc.

But you can't claim that anyone is genuinely superior if yo look at their all time comparison vs Kohli, heck 2 can play at this game by this logic as no one in cricket history since the kohli era bullies Pakistan as much as he does .

As batting eras goes I've already said it we went from Bradman Era to Gary sobers era to viv era to Tendulkar era and then kohli's era.

Anyone who says we're living in the babar azam era, for real I wanna try the weed their smoking. Like genuinely I want to be that high atleast once in my pious not smoking and non drinking life if we ever reach the babar azam era

 

[VForVendetta]

Only match winnings innings babar has ever played is his innings against NZ in world cups and his innings against India in 2021 t20 world cup.

The NZ innings wasn't a bash, it was a slow as molasses innings but it was a good one cause he hung in their when wickets were falling and he needed to stay otherwise wed have lost.

The t20 India game was good but its the same as going on merry ways.

He's never actually attacked on gone after A string bowling attacks, only B strings.

He's always had hand holding from people like fakhar, Haris sohail even against Nepal he had hand holding from chacha lol, Babar didn't go Berserk until he already reached him 100, when in reality he could have easily tonked a 50 ball 100 if he wanted to . The curators made sure to make the pitch as non spin friendly as possible hence easy picking of medium pacers for babar.

I think you can honestly say from a neutral point of view, that so far he has played three innings in major tournaments which impacted the result. But none of them were the kind of innings which could potentially knock out the opposition from the matches. First thing first, coincidentally It was Shaheen in each of those matches who set up the chase with his brilliant bowling, other guys also did fine job.
In the wc match, it was Sohail who took the risks & always kept nr on check. That allowed Babar to take all the time in the world to reach to his milestones.
In the Ind match, Rizwan was the aggressor, like him or not you have to admit it. The way he dismantled Shami in that crucial 17th over, I am not sure Babar could ever muster to do that.
Finally in last year's semifinal despite a 100+ partnership & both friends reaching their milestones, they left at an uncertain juncture. They didn't kill the match, like the entire tournament, Shan & Haris had to do the rescue job.

 

[W63L35]

7 innings in 8 ODI? Where are the members of "Small Sample Hater Brigade" when you need them?

If we are trying to define Babar "The Batsman" Azam based on his average of 31 in 7 ODI innings in 8 matches, then how are we going to rate Salman Butt and Hafeez with 50+ average vs India?

View attachment 137838


On the same token, how are going to defined these batsmen because they scaored runs at a low average between Ind-Pak matches?




By the way, Kohli had a Babar-Azam-like average of average 33 vs Pakistan in his first 9 ODIs. Only one innings of 183 ... in other 8, the highest is 22*. Did that make Kohli any less of a batsman?

 

[W63L35]

Did not attach this screen shot to the above post.

If we are trying to define Babar "The Batsman" Azam based on his average of 31 in 7 ODI innings in 8 matches, then how are we going to rate Salman Butt and Hafeez with 50+ average vs India?

 

[Saanji]

Did not attach this screen shot to the above post.

If we are trying to define Babar "The Batsman" Azam based on his average of 31 in 7 ODI innings in 8 matches, then how are we going to rate Salman Butt and Hafeez with 50+ average vs India?

View attachment 137842

Butt hafeez and Malik were the last traumatic players for india.

 

[Farabi]

No, he can't ever play an innings like that, he can't even think about playing something like that, it's one of those things which are beyond his wildest imaginations.
You are right about six hitters & aggressive players always haunting not just Indian fans but also the players themselves. From my lifetime, guys like Salim Malik, Anwar, Izaz, Inzy, Sohail, Afridi,Moin,Nazir,Razzak always had this extra impact & caused anxiety. Even Shoaib Malik during 04-09 made Indians restless as he would always somehow raise his game & overperform against India at that particular period. Fakhar is the only guy in the current unit who can create panic amongst Indians, the lights of Babar, Imam & Rizwan have little to no effect on them. I think Pandya & Kuldeep's remarks really made it crystal clear, even though there have been mixed responses & I see many Indians also not appreciating their words. But they just really confirmed the same things that many of us have saying already, the current Pak batsmen do not cause any worry because Indians know they are predictable & gutless.

I can understand but this is a bit skewed due to a small sample size.
Players like Ijaz, Malik, Afridi and Nazir outperformed against India and played many many bilateral games.
I rate Imam, Babar and Rizwan much higher than each one of those guys , but they have simply underperformed against India SO FAR. Given enough time and chances, the perception will also update with it.
I was surprised you mentioned Rizwan. He seems to be hated quite a lot and has already played a role in defeating India in 2 T20s in past 2 years.

 

[Syed1]

1. He is overhyped
2. He started believing his own hype after smashing minnows
3. He is king of useless runs
4. What's the point of meaningless runs in bilateral when you can't do jack in world tournaments
5. Loves to play his friends, keeping his relationship with teammates over the need of the team
6. Is a weak character and not fit to be captain
7. An average joe of the street can play spin better than him

 

[heddie19]

Babar has never won a t20 wc either, kohli was top scorer in 3 different t20 wcs and was mott twice. And kohli has performed in every t20 wc knockout match

Babar was top run scorer in his first t20WC too that too as a captain

 

[heddie19]

GOAT T20 batsmen no doubt.

and 0 T20 trophies, no IPL even

 

[Devadwal]

This maybe the first and last fifty of Babar's career against India.

The teams don't play bilateral against each other. Doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime soon as well.

Babar is probably going to face India only in big occasions like World Cup in ODI format. He may play a few or a couple more games depending on his retirement age. The pressure these games have, where Pakistan is almost always on the receiving end with neutral or Indian crowd support. It's highly unlikely for Babar to score a big match winning knock against India.

Maybe Champions Trophy 2025 would be that opportunity with home crowd and good batting pitches backing him.

Guess we'll find out in some years.

You're forgetting that india - Pakistan will be face each other in CT and Asia cup also.

 

[Devadwal]

and 0 T20 trophies, no IPL even

Virat won a World Cup and a champion trophy .when Babar won a World Cup then came here .btw Virat is going to win 2nd world cup in just one month ,just wait and watch.

 

[160KPH]

@VForVendetta @mominsaigol you both are either lacking in the most basic English reading skills as well as computer skills or you are both being purposefully dishonest. The English skill issues is no problem, English is not my first language either, but being a liar is truly dishonorable.

Ik what you said, when did I say you're saying babar > Kohli? Ik you're comparing kohli not being a goat due to a metric performance but it simply does not work like that.

The tournament metric was used to simply downplay some cricketers like kohli but overhype other cricketers like inzi.

You could say the same for Tendulkar. He literally vanishes in world cup finals which is the most important match of your entire career. More then semi, more then anything.

He vanished in 2003 and in 2011, besides his 2003 knock against Pakistan against a end of the line burnt out wasim and waqar and the Sri lanka match losing century in 1996, what has he done?

Shpuld we start using that metric and call Tendulkar a terrible player? Because he always left India in the 2 most important match of their entire career?

The tournament metric is nonsense. You're free to have your opinion but everyone knows full well kohli is the best player of his era, same with viv and Sachin and Bradman.

Minus Bradman everyone else has had one or 2 players outperform in certain scenarios like de Villiers > Kohli, Pointing > Tendulkar, but it doesn't change them being overall better.

If kohli is not a goat then no one from this era is. And if your context is greatest of all time, then their can only be one and only Bradman fits that.

I read fully well, it's just people get defensive when certain arguments get exposed so they keep backtracking or acting like certain argumentative events didn't occur lol

Firstly, I am going to assume you have never played athletics at any high level. In every sport there are players who are good in the regular season and then fail during the playoffs when it matters most and none of them are considered GOATs. Michael Jordan would not be a GOAT if he lost in the finals, Tom Brady would not be a GOAT if he failed in the playoffs, etc. This is not some made up statistic. You pick and choose for who 'meaningless bilaterals' matter. And for Kohli you excuse the most important matches purposefully.

Uhh, they probably make up numbers and hope the other person doesn't Google search ig.

Either that or some shady site is telling them otherwise and they don't check credible sites like cricinfo

It would be very unfortunate if they make up those numbers, specially in this age where within seconds you can verify anything.

That is true but let's be honest, do most people bother checking?

He used that argument against me and I didn't notice it until you told me lol. I just noticed the babar azam statistic.

That was ironically the only argument I was slightly stuck on , the others I countered. But now that you told, that argument wasn't even an argument at all, just a lie lol.

Absolutely embarrassing for the both of you considering it takes about 2 seconds to search and you are either too lazy or too stupid to do even that.



But, I would expect nothing less from Kamran and Umar Akmal fanboys

I already know kohli is a goat lol. He just shoved an 84 avg metric on me to prove why kohli is not a GOAT .

I do not understand why you are continuing to lie when proven wrong on multiple occasions. Here are my exact words:

Babar’s average in ODI knockouts is 84, but he has yet to play many so you can’t judge yet. The GOAT’s like Vivian Richard’s improve their stats during knockout games.

I literally simply stated that a sample size of 2 matches is way too small to make any judgments. And that's why I said Vivian and Sachin are a tier above, because they performed in knockout matches while Kohli failed.

You have to put another layer of filter. Use the steps:
1. Identify where all kohli has failed
2. Is there a pattern possible.? Yes.
3. Goto cricinfo statsguru and use those filters.
4. Is average below 40?
5. No ? Then use more filters to bring down average below 40.
6. Keep repeating till average can be brought as low as possible
6. Success

You realize that is literally what was done to Babar in this thread right? Or can you not see the irony? The original post filtered stats and managed to discover that India does not have that high of an average against Babar and then used that to say that Babar is overrated. However, in this thread you Kohli fanboys are saying that Kohli being a massive failure in knockout matches does not matter.

 

[160KPH]

Virat won a World Cup and a champion trophy .when Babar won a World Cup then came here .btw Virat is going to win 2nd world cup in just one month ,just wait and watch.

He was carried by a stacked batting lineup, that's why Sachin is GOAT tier and Kohli isn't. And you won't win a 2nd World Cup because we all have seen you choke horribly on many occasions after the group stage, particularly against New Zealand.

 

[160KPH]

Babar was top run scorer in his first t20WC too that too as a captain

When Babar scores runs: It is meaningless bilateral series and the runs are 'soft'
When Kohli spends 15 years failing at all knockout matches: That doesn't matter! Look how good he is in bilateral series!

 

[160KPH]

7 innings in 8 ODI? Where are the members of "Small Sample Hater Brigade" when you need them?

If we are trying to define Babar "The Batsman" Azam based on his average of 31 in 7 ODI innings in 8 matches, then how are we going to rate Salman Butt and Hafeez with 50+ average vs India?

View attachment 137838


On the same token, how are going to defined these batsmen because they scaored runs at a low average between Ind-Pak matches?

View attachment 137839


By the way, Kohli had a Babar-Azam-like average of average 33 vs Pakistan in his first 9 ODIs. Only one innings of 183 ... in other 8, the highest is 22*. Did that make Kohli any less of a batsman?

View attachment 137841

This is one of the best posts I have seen as it so badly exposes the double standard at play.