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[PICTURES] Who is the most complete batter of the Fab four?

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According to me its Smith. We all know what he does in tests but even in Odi he can win you games. He can hit the big shot rotate strike when required and can finish of games (scored 104* vs sa and guided ozz to victory from 98/5 to 270. Here is an intesting stat since battingin top order he averages 55 compared to 20 before that . He can score in big games and he has also scored a 100 in t20.Hasnt played a lot of t20s as a batter (approx 6 to 7 innings ) and has scored a 90 and 68 in them. Has got an outstanding coversion rate. Joe root cannot hit the big shots. Kohli cant play on sporting wickets and as we all know is a choker in odis.
Your thoughts?
 
kohli:

one of the top 3 odi batsman of all time
a world class test batsman
best t20 batsman of all time

smith:

comfortably the best test batsman in the world
a world class odi batsman
a good t20 batsman

root:

a world class test batsman
a world class odi batsman
a good t20 batsman

kane:

a world class test batsman
a world class odi batsman
a good t20 batsman

the answer to this question is kohli easily. he is the only batsman among the four who is a certified legend already (in limited overs).
 
[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

Thori khul ke tareef hojae :kohli:
 
Smith. Miles ahead as a Test player and won his country an ODI World Cup with a 100 in SF and unbeaten 50+ in Finals. Easily the best batsman of this generation.
 
[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION]

Drop hokar dubara se catch pakarwane wali abilities ki. :kohli:
 
Stop saying kohli is ATG in odis we all know which attacks he scored against.3rd string aussie attack and lost all games no dominant world cup .no century in eng.
 
Smith is the best in the test but he isn't the most complete.
 
Kohli is king only against sl and ban and 3rd string attacks on roads.Sharma is a. better player than him in odis
 
Leo23 said:
kohli:

one of the top 3 odi batsman of all time
a world class test batsman
best t20 batsman of all time

smith:

comfortably the best test batsman in the world
a world class odi batsman
a good t20 batsman

root:

a world class test batsman
a world class odi batsman
a good t20 batsman

kane:

a world class test batsman
a world class odi batsman
a good t20 batsman

the answer to this question is kohli easily. he is the only batsman among the four who is a certified legend already (in limited overs).
Click to expand...

Of course you would say Kohli xD
 
Kohli the new choker of world cricket akin to Ab, amla, entire sa team of pakpassion.net
 
This question is easy to answer. Only one batsman has been on top in all formats. Different formats require different skill sets.
 
Steven Smith is the most complete. Kohli cannot play the moving ball to save his life, Kane isn't a free-flowing player and Root is having trouble getting those big scores.
 
Kohli is probably more naturally gifted than the other three put together. It's just questionable as to whether he will prove this theory with a sufficient level of achievement on the pitch. He really should be averaging over 60 in all formats.
 
James said:
Kohli is probably more naturally gifted than the other three put together. It's just questionable as to whether he will prove this theory with a sufficient level of achievement on the pitch. He really should be averaging over 60 in all formats.
Click to expand...

He did average 50+ in all formats, but taking it to 60 in all formats will be too much.
 
Kohli has a better overall game, is more naturally blessed. More complete or allround game - sheer excellence in three formats is no joke. Technical angle, Smith is the best so far. Root can't make tall scores outside home.
 
Root is the only batsman who is not weak in any format. Smith's weaker format is T20s, Kohli's is test. Root is among top 3 in all formats. Note that complete batsman does not mean best batsman.
 
The_Odd_One said:
Root is the only batsman who is not weak in any format. Smith's weaker format is T20s, Kohli's is test. Root is among top 3 in all formats. Note that complete batsman does not mean best batsman.
Click to expand...
Smith averages 30 in t20s despite playing most of them as a bowler
 
James said:
Kohli is probably more naturally gifted than the other three put together. It's just questionable as to whether he will prove this theory with a sufficient level of achievement on the pitch. He really should be averaging over 60 in all formats.
Click to expand...

Don't think Kohli is that talented. He has a superior temperament in LOI and a good enough one in tests (but has to do a lot more in tests).

I can totally see McGrath mercilessly bullying Kohli.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Don't think Kohli is that talented. He has a superior temperament in LOI and a good enough one in tests (but has to do a lot more in tests).

I can totally see McGrath mercilessly bullying Kohli.
Click to expand...

He is not astute about shot selection for the ball moving away. Apart from that, he does not really have any temperamental issues or major flaws. I dont see McGrath bullying him mercilessly on modern Oz pitches or Indian wickets, anymore than he did to the previous generation Indian batsmen. McGrath is a great bowler, he would trouble any batsman. But not Kohli in particular on modern wickets.
 
I'd say Steve Smith is the most complete batsman for now.

Kohli will take the mantle in 2-3 years.

He's already GOAT T20I batsman and an ATG ODI batsman.

That's remarkable at his age but Test cricket is something he has to continue to work on but he's getting there.
 
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IndianWillow said:
He is not astute about shot selection for the ball moving away. Apart from that, he does not really have any temperamental issues or major flaws. I dont see McGrath bullying him mercilessly on modern Oz pitches or Indian wickets, anymore than he did to the previous generation Indian batsmen. McGrath is a great bowler, he would trouble any batsman. But not Kohli in particular on modern wickets.
Click to expand...

McGrath's greatest strengths and Kohli's greatest weaknesses coincide. Outside off stump channel bowling.

Also Kohli has periods where he can score runs at will and not score at all. McGrath is a master at prodding and poking you till he finds a weakness and then exploits it to the fullest.

Never said he would trouble only Kohli. He would win against all fab 4 of this era but would trouble Kohli the most due to aforementioned reasons. Modern Aussie pitches are awful but McGrath would cause some real troubles in 90s Aussie pitches and Asian pitches where he will get the ball to jag around.
 
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kingusama92 said:
I'd say Steve Smith is the most complete batsman for now.

Kohli will take the mantle in 2-3 years.

He's already GOAT T20I batsman and an ATG ODI batsman.

That's remarkable at his age but Test cricket is something he has to continue to work on but he's getting there.
Click to expand...

Others are not even ATG in T20 or ODI.

In tests, only Steve Smith is closest to ATG.

So Kohli is more complete.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Others are not even ATG in T20 or ODI.

In tests, only Steve Smith is closest to ATG.

So Kohli is more complete.
Click to expand...

It's definitely close.

I suppose it comes down to which format you rate higher. Smith's dominance in Test cricket is remarkable.
 
IndianWillow said:
He is not astute about shot selection for the ball moving away. Apart from that, he does not really have any temperamental issues or major flaws. I dont see McGrath bullying him mercilessly on modern Oz pitches or Indian wickets, anymore than he did to the previous generation Indian batsmen. McGrath is a great bowler, he would trouble any batsman. But not Kohli in particular on modern wickets.
Click to expand...

Apart from well know off stump weakness, I have also seen kohli not that good in facing well directed short balls. I know he has scored in Australia but he does not look sound and that is a difference between a good and very good batsman.He is not balanced while pulling. Very good batsman scores despite the weakness.

BTW McGrath will bully kohli day in and day out. No doubts. :))
 
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Across all formats - it has to be Kohli and slightly behind him, Smith.

However, Kohli is the best in ODI's follwed by Williamson

In Tests - Smith is miles ahead.

In T20's - it also has to be Kohli
 
kingusama92 said:
It's definitely close.

I suppose it comes down to which format you rate higher. Smith's dominance in Test cricket is remarkable.
Click to expand...

True but he's a non entity in T20I and I think has an awful record outside Aus in ODIs.

Kohli himself hasn't done that badly in tests. Averages good against SA facing Steyn, Philander, Morkel....averages some crazy number facing Hazlewood, Starc and Johnson in Aus.

Add his insane 4 clutch knocks in T20I all in knockout games (2014 and 2016 World T20), CT finals knock, ridiculous ODI chases, one crazy madcap Adelaide test match chase on a spitting turner where he almost broke a 100 year old record smashing Aussie bowlers at 85 SR...and the picture kind of becomes very clear.
 
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None from the mentioned four. ABDV is a complete batsman. From the mentioned Root comes close to it. But something gets me feel he is going to seriously under achieve in his career.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
True but he's a non entity in T20I and I think has an awful record outside Aus in ODIs.

Kohli himself hasn't done that badly in tests. Averages good against SA facing Steyn, Philander, Morkel....averages some crazy number facing Hazlewood, Starc and Johnson in Aus.

Add his insane 4 clutch knocks in T20I all in knockout games (2014 and 2016 World T20), CT finals knock, ridiculous ODI chases, one crazy madcap Adelaide test match chase on a spitting turner where he almost broke a 100 year old record smashing Aussie bowlers at 85 SR...and the picture kind of becomes very clear.
Click to expand...

Kohli failed abysmally in England only and scored heavily in other outside tours.

I also think he is very suspect against swing because he likes to feel for the ball and doesn't leave many balls. Most of his dismissals against outswing are balls not even on fourth stump line.

He plays one day shots in tests which will not work in swinging conditions.

In the previous sa tour most of our batsman including kohli left balls beautifully and scored against straight balls.

I hope he has improved in that aspect.
 
Pollack said:
None from the mentioned four. ABDV is a complete batsman. From the mentioned Root comes close to it. But something gets me feel he is going to seriously under achieve in his career.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. As an all round player abd is better than all of them.

He doesn't have much weakness like kohli and other three are not even in conversation with regard to abd as all-round players
 
IndianWillow said:
Kohli has a better overall game, is more naturally blessed. More complete or allround game - sheer excellence in three formats is no joke. Technical angle, Smith is the best so far. Root can't make tall scores outside home.
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Kane is the best technically by far. Smith and Root have relatively poor techniques...Smith is downright ugly. Kohli is a flat track bully in Tests.
 
in terms of pure talent i would say that root is the best of the lot. he is probably the most natural batsman in the game today

but kohli's mental game is at a different level

root with kohli's mentality or kohli with root's talent would be SCARY
 
IMO, Fab 4 has been miscounted. There 3 batsmen who can claim to be the best in the game with emphasis on Test cricket:

Smith
Williamson
Root

Kohli is not at the class of those 3 yet and I suspect never will be. He is a limited overs beast only.
 
Shutdown Corner said:
IMO, Fab 4 has been miscounted. There 3 batsmen who can claim to be the best in the game with emphasis on Test cricket:

Smith
Williamson
Root

Kohli is not at the class of those 3 yet and I suspect never will be. He is a limited overs beast only.
Click to expand...

Smith is way ahead of all in tests. The other three has so many chinks in their test resume and other two r not that better than kohli as they also need to prove a lot outside of their home.

In odis it is not even a contest with kohli miles above the rest.
 
I'd say Steve Smith. Has got big scores all over the world
 
Shutdown Corner said:
IMO, Fab 4 has been miscounted. There 3 batsmen who can claim to be the best in the game with emphasis on Test cricket:

Smith
Williamson
Root

Kohli is not at the class of those 3 yet and I suspect never will be. He is a limited overs beast only.
Click to expand...

Why exactly? Looking at their careers so far, Kohli has outperformed Williamson and Root in tests.
 
Root is the most complete batsman here,he can perfectly adapt his game according to the formats perfectly

Smith is the most effective though
 
if all formats are weighed equally :- kohli
if performance in test is rated more:- Smith
 
Kohli is number one ODI and T20 batsman and on number 6 in tests. Smith is number 1 in test, and not in top 10 in limited over cricket.

And people criticize Kohli not performing well in test. LOL

ICC ranking doesn't show whole picture but it tells you consistency.
 
cricketworm said:
Kohli is number one ODI and T20 batsman and on number 6 in tests. Smith is number 1 in test, and not in top 10 in limited over cricket.

And people criticize Kohli not performing well in test. LOL

ICC ranking doesn't show whole picture but it tells you consistency.
Click to expand...

ICC ranking may not be perfect at any time, but you have to be in top 3 rank in all formats at different times. If you can't do that at any time then simply means that you don't have a top game for all formats.
 
Sachin136 said:
Why exactly? Looking at their careers so far, Kohli has outperformed Williamson and Root in tests.
Click to expand...

I believe Kohli only scores on flat pitches vs the other 3. Dont know about Root, but Williamson has scored runs everywhere along with Smith. Root and Kohli are behind in that department. I might be wrong, but my guesstimate is Kohli is well behind Smith and Williamson, if not Root.

I have come up with 5 parameters for measuring players, with all 5 given equal weight:

Overall average
Average in alien* conditions
Average relative to the all time average
avg based on opposition bowling strength
4th innings average

* as opposed to simply overseas average
 
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I love Joe Root and Kohli as batsmen but I still don't think they can match the ability of AB Devilliers and Kevin Pietersen when it comes to adapting to the requirements of the format.

AB and KP are absolute beasts with the bat when they unleash in limited overs cricket. Both are accomplished Tes batsmen as well. I don't think the fab 4 guys can match the monstrosity of AB and KP in limited overs
 
Shutdown Corner said:
I believe Kohli only scores on flat pitches vs the other 3. Dont know about Root, but Williamson has scored runs everywhere along with Smith.
Click to expand...

If we are not going with logic of all wickets are flat if Kohli scores then,

Kohli averages higher than Kane in Aus, NZ, SA, SL & IND. That's 5 big test venues.

Kane averages higher than Kohli in Zim, BD, WI, UAE and Eng. That's another 5 test venues. Here Kohli played 1 inning in BD and zero in Zim.

Take you pick. Kane averaging 30, 35 and 21 in three big test venues( Eng, Ind and SA) clearly says that he hasn't scored everywhere.
 
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Buffet said:
If we are not going with logic of all wickets are flat if Kohli scores then,

Kohli averages higher than Kane in Aus, NZ, SA, SL & IND. That's 5 big test venues.

Kane averages higher than Kohli in Zim, BD, WI, UAE and Eng. That's another 5 test venues. Here Kohli played 1 inning in BD and zero in Zim.

Take you pick. Kane averaging 30, 35 and 21 in three big test venues( Eng, Ind and SA) clearly says that he hasn't scored everywhere.
Click to expand...

Thats an oversimplification without a more detailed - and time consuming - analysis. Fortunately, I enjoy spending excessive amounts of time doing just that. For example, Wellington is a very flat pitch and Colombo's PSO and RPS tend to be more sporting. Perth and Brisbane are probably not as flat as Sydney or Melbourne and so on.

So why don't we do something.

I have a database of all Test matches since after the 2015 World Cup. I can tell you the average runs per wicket (you can also get that from cricinfo easily), but I can also give you the average first innings score of all Tests played in the last 2+ years. I can also give you a standard deviation for first or second innings score.

Test match scores should be normally distributed (over time), and we know that 68% of samples in a normal distribution fall within +/- 1 standard deviation. That means that scores that are more than 1 standard deviation above the mean represent the top 16% of scores ie the 84th percentile. Lets define those scores as determining a "flat" wicket.

If thats fair, we can then go back over the careers of the big 4 and see who stands where. Its probably an excercise that would take a few hours, but would settle the debate without doubt.
 
Between Smith and Kohli.

Give the edge to Smith as he's won his team a WC and is a level above the rest in Tests.
 
Aman said:
Between Smith and Kohli.

Give the edge to Smith as he's won his team a WC and is a level above the rest in Tests.
Click to expand...

How much weight to LOIs carry? If they are weighted equally than Kohli wins because he is simply too far ahead of the competition in ODIs and T20Is.
 
Shutdown Corner said:
How much weight to LOIs carry? If they are weighted equally than Kohli wins because he is simply too far ahead of the competition in ODIs and T20Is.
Click to expand...

Smith actually had a fantastic WC last time around while Kohli pulled off the most embarrassing choke-job of all time. Forget about "too far ahead", he might not even be the best ODI batsman depending on how much importance one gives to WC KO matches.
 
Bilal7 said:
Smith actually had a fantastic WC last time around while Kohli pulled off the most embarrassing choke-job of all time. Forget about "too far ahead", he might not even be the best ODI batsman depending on how much importance one gives to WC KO matches.
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You would definitely have to give WC knock matches more weight. But you have to remembe that is not an entire career. Kohli will play 350 ODIs when he retires with maybe 20-30 of those being KO matches. 10% of the games can carry 30% weight but not more than that.

Tendulkar was also a choker in WC Finals but that doesn't mean he was a bad ODI batsmen. He was very good, just still overrated. He was also a 4th innings choker in Tests. Again doesn't mean he was a bad Test batsmen, just that he was not much better (if at all) than the other greats of his time.
 
Shutdown Corner said:
You would definitely have to give WC knock matches more weight. But you have to remembe that is not an entire career. Kohli will play 350 ODIs when he retires with maybe 20-30 of those being KO matches. 10% of the games can carry 30% weight but not more than that.

Tendulkar was also a choker in WC Finals but that doesn't mean he was a bad ODI batsmen. He was very good, just still overrated. He was also a 4th innings choker in Tests. Again doesn't mean he was a bad Test batsmen, just that he was not much better (if at all) than the other greats of his time.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I also believe the same. WC KO matches are not the be all, end all. The entire ODI career of a player should be taken into account.
 
Shutdown Corner said:
Thats an oversimplification without a more detailed - and time consuming - analysis. Fortunately, I enjoy spending excessive amounts of time doing just that. For example, Wellington is a very flat pitch and Colombo's PSO and RPS tend to be more sporting. Perth and Brisbane are probably not as flat as Sydney or Melbourne and so on.

So why don't we do something.

I have a database of all Test matches since after the 2015 World Cup. I can tell you the average runs per wicket (you can also get that from cricinfo easily), but I can also give you the average first innings score of all Tests played in the last 2+ years. I can also give you a standard deviation for first or second innings score.

Test match scores should be normally distributed (over time), and we know that 68% of samples in a normal distribution fall within +/- 1 standard deviation. That means that scores that are more than 1 standard deviation above the mean represent the top 16% of scores ie the 84th percentile. Lets define those scores as determining a "flat" wicket.

If thats fair, we can then go back over the careers of the big 4 and see who stands where. Its probably an excercise that would take a few hours, but would settle the debate without doubt.
Click to expand...

You don't have to spend hours to say that Smith is far ahead of other 3 in the test format. You also don't have to do all the analysis if you have seen many knocks by all these batsmen. Kane hasn't done anything which Kohli has not done and I am a huge fan of Kane to start with.
 
Buffet said:
You don't have to spend hours to say that Smith is far ahead of other 3 in the test format. You also don't have to do all the analysis if you have seen many knocks by all these batsmen. Kane hasn't done anything which Kohli has not done and I am a huge fan of Kane to start with.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what that means. Is it a case of "it doesn't matter what the numbers say I am going to stick to my beliefs?" I would hope not. If the numbers prove Kohli is as good as Kane or better, I don't see the reason to not believe in it.

What I am saying is I'm going to do the analysis regardless and of course post the results in this thread.
 
Shutdown Corner said:
I'm not sure what that means. Is it a case of "it doesn't matter what the numbers say I am going to stick to my beliefs?" I would hope not. If the numbers prove Kohli is as good as Kane or better, I don't see the reason to not believe in it.

What I am saying is I'm going to do the analysis regardless and of course post the results in this thread.
Click to expand...

You can do the analysis. I didn't want you to do that due to me saying so.
 
Kohli is a huge in odi tournaments even in CT final he was looking very nervous. In his short stay he played and missed 3 to 4 balls and got out twice. Kohli is the king of bilaterals against sl and aus b attack
 
Between Smith and Kohli both are easily the best in tests and ODIs.
Kane lacks a gear or two to be great in ODIs and Smith is comfortably better in tests he would be the 4th with Root in 3rd at the moment.
 
Smith is clearly a tier above the three.

Now between the other three, its close.

If I recall, kohli's best knocks were Adelaide in 2015 and Mumbai vs England in 2016. These two series are also the ones he dominated.

Kane had a great knock in UAE although BMac played a better knock and recently he played a really great knock vs SA at home. Apart from that, I don't remember much of him barring that series he dominated in Australia. Someone can help me here with his great knocks.

Root again has no. of series defining performance at home Vs likes of Aus,Pak,SA and Ind but away I just could recall a hundred in SA where Broad was the real match winner with the bowl.Ashes this year can really elevate him if he gets big hundreds there.

Think its basically same of the three.Apart from that its basically a matter of preference.

Obviously kohli wins hands down in Lois.
 
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