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Potential pace-bowling options to partner the exciting duo of Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah?

ethan hunt

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Caught some glimpses of the test in Pindi and have been thoroughly impressed by the young duo of Shaheen and Naseem.

I think Pakistan have a couple of gems in the form of those two .

140 plus young quickies with good wrist actions and seam presentation.
If they keep working hard they can be as good as anyone. Both have ample pace and the ability to move the bowl at such a young age.

Let us be honest though . Abbas, it seems is pretty much done at this level . the pace he is currently bowling along with the visible lack of zip will not work for him.

What are the options moving forward ?

Imran butt the top scorer rates Haris Rauf as the toughest pacer to face in the local circuit .

Should we invest in Rauf ?? Sameen Gul is another option .
 
Who ever it is, i would like to them to be a handy number 8 bat. Our tail is too long and never wags...
 
Pakistan doesnt need 1 , pakistan needs at least three more fast bowlers. These are young guys and they are bound to get unfit or lose form.

ehsan adil and sameen gul are three very good bowlers and should be given chances.

haris rauf is also good but unfortunately this years qae wickets were so docile that he couldnt do much.
 
Amad butt has good figures for an all rounder , averages 24 with both bat and ball. He is tall as well.

Amir yamin is more than a handy batsman and can swing the ball around. Averages almost 40 with the bat and 26 with the ball.

These guys can be used as third seamers.
 
1st change would look at Rauf Adil Gul...potentially Husnain - we should focus on it being a right hander.

Yamin and Butt could be good option for 7, if a 4th option is wanted, 8 needs to be a spinner, followed by the 3 quicks.
 
I think Sameen Gul had the best average after Naseem and Shinwari in the ongoing FC tournament. I think he should be tried. An A-team tour would have certainly helped in this regard.
 
Shaheen is the complete package, whilst Naseem Shah has the pace to take the wickets out of the equation.

I agree with the OP, that the third pace bowler certainly shouldn't be Abbas, but we need a bowler who has the same style i.e. provide control and be effective in utilising the new ball.

Personally, I would go for Ehsan Adil. At 26, I still think he has a lot to offer for Pakistan in red ball cricket, in the short to medium term. I was very disappointed to see him not even make the squad for the Australia tour but with Misbah in charge, the selections will always suffer from the lack of flexibility in his thinking.

My second choice would be Sameen Gul, however he certainly isn't anywhere near 20 years of age. These Afghan and KWP origin cricketers ought to know that if you're going to age fudge, at least make it believable because in this case it is comparable to Rashid Khan with his concealment of his true age.
 
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Abbass should be no way near Pakistan team after this test. If he could not be successful in these conditions, he cannot be anywhere. His pace is further down and he is not moving the ball that much. That happens when you lie about age, you act and play like 35 year old at stated age of 29. Reminds me of Razzaq.
 
Shaheen is the complete package, whilst Naseem Shah has the pace to take the wickets out of the equation.

I agree with the OP, that the third pace bowler certainly shouldn't be Abbas, but we need a bowler who has the same style i.e. provide control and be effective in utilising the new ball.

Personally, I would go for Ehsan Adil. At 26, I still think he has a lot to offer for Pakistan in red ball cricket, in the short to medium term. I was very disappointed to see him not even make the squad for the Australia tour but with Misbah in charge, the selections will always suffer from the lack of flexibility in his thinking.

My second choice would be Sameen Gul, however he certainly isn't anywhere near 20 years of age. These Afghan and KWP origin cricketers ought to know that if you're going to age fudge, at least make it believable because in this case it is comparable to Rashid Khan with his concealment of his true age.

I agree, lets not read too much on stats in QeA trophy. Ehsan Adil and Sameen are both young and tall and can only get better playing international cricket , they are good options.
 
Both are the future and class apart. I just hope they work hard on their fitness and remain fit. Ideally someone with bit of experience could have been handy alongside them and could have guided them as well, however, its a luxury we dont have at he moment.

-> Firstly I think as we are moving towards young pacers, its high time to have atleast 1 decent all rounder in the team who is good enough to take wickets and share the workload. Aamir Yamin and Imad Wasim are the highest averaging all rounder with bat and their bowling while not really penetrative for test level but still good enough as a 5th bowler. Not to forget Collin De Grandhome plays as an all rounder for NZ which is a successful test side. I dont mind Faheem, Amad etc but they are bowling all rounders would need another bowling all rounder in the lineup at no 8 to maintain balance.

-> Assuming Shaheen and Naseem share the new ball, I think someone like Ehsan Adil can be tried as he can ball the older ball as well though his style of bowling is a bit like Shaheen, tall and high arm action which might increase variety to the attack but would still be a decent addition to have.

-> Sameen Gul on the other hand likes the new ball so unless we want Naseem to go first change Sameen can be difficult to fit in though Sameen provides more conventional swing bowling from the fuller length kind of skills which can be a decent variety to have considering our struggles with new ball in recent times.

-> Mohammad Hasnain has showed exceptional progress in last couple of months in terms of his fitness, seam position and direction. If he keeps on working like that he will be putting his hand up for test call by the next season or two.

-> Haris Rauf does have a lot of skills, If he is interested in longer formats he can be really good in terms of variety and early swing with the new ball.

So these are the few names I can think of going forward alongside Abbas if he can get it to atleast early 130s which he did on his good days otherwise he can play in his kind of conditions. However, more importantly we need a proper all rounder or two in the test lineup.
 
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I really like Muhammad Husnain. If he can learn to reverse swing, he can be really good with the older ball with his speeds. He needs more experience though, like a season of first class at least. This attack is really inexperienced.

Sameen Gul is not as exciting but he is also a good option as he has the experience since he has been playing for few seasons now and have come through the system from under 19 days.
 
I would for the experienced Ehsan Adil who's the right age and can keep things tight. And agreed with what Titan said, a batting all rounder that can help share the workload would be nice.
 
Hasnian is the real deal he needs to pay first class first...and also all of these need to work on fielding and batting ..we cant afford the worse tail in the world
 
Both are excited prospects, I am though more impressed with Naseem, a potential 155+ kph bowler, who are pretty rare these days.
 
Hasnain or Sameen seem like the obvious choices. Shinwari or Ehsan Adil can also be decent picks.
 
Shaheen and Naseem should not be over used at this stage play the. 60-70 percent of the time ask Amir and wahab to take back retirement and cover for these two atleast 30-40% of the time
 
The plan is for Hasnain to be the 3rd seamer, but he needs a lot of work yet to make him a Test bowler.

It could be a few years before he is anywhere near ready.
 
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They could be next Wasim and Waqar combo in the making.. I really like Shaheen..saw him for first time u19 WC against us and straightaway knew he was gonna play international given Pakistani love for left armers and he was very good. Also from whatever I saw till now Shaheen treats naseem like younger brother and I have observed he tries to help him a lot.this is unlike Waseem and Waqar who brought lot of infighting in your team in the 90’s.
Just need to find a seamer who can swing the bowl and a decent spinner plus 2-3 solid batsmen to help them out and get Pakistani cricket back on track. Then this team captained by Babar in future hopefully can challenge any team anywhere.
 
They could be next Wasim and Waqar combo in the making.. I really like Shaheen..saw him for first time u19 WC against us and straightaway knew he was gonna play international given Pakistani love for left armers and he was very good. Also from whatever I saw till now Shaheen treats naseem like younger brother and I have observed he tries to help him a lot.this is unlike Waseem and Waqar who brought lot of infighting in your team in the 90’s.
Just need to find a seamer who can swing the bowl and a decent spinner plus 2-3 solid batsmen to help them out and get Pakistani cricket back on track. Then this team captained by Babar in future hopefully can challenge any team anywhere.

They are the same type of Bowles as the Ws too. Shaheen and Naseem seem to have a good friendship too.
 
Shan
Abid
Azhar
Babar
Asad
Rizwan
Shadab
Faheem/Yamin/Ammad
Afridi
Naseem
Shinwari
 
Both are excited prospects, I am though more impressed with Naseem, a potential 155+ kph bowler, who are pretty rare these days.
Naseem is not 155+ and probably never will be. He has steyn type pace 140-150 kph and such pace bowlers can have longer careers. he has to keep working on his skills and don’t worry about pace part much as that is natural for him
 
Hasnain can be the perfect 3rd seamer in that attack.

Lots of work needed but if he can improve and become a test class bowler it would be great

We will need a 4th Seamer like Amir Yamin to manage workload of Hasnain and Naseem in that case
 
It has to be someone that can build pressure.

Considering the options, I'd likely favor Ehsan Adil because he's tall, experienced, and seems to build up good pressure in FC cricket. In fact, he's sporting a very good economy rate for the kind of pitches that are on offer in Pakistan right now.

Shinwari/Abbas/Imran Khan aren't cut out for that role right now.
 
If this thread is about Test matches, then we need to understand that both Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah are Genuine Number Elevens.

One of Misbah's most grievous repeat errors is to go into Test matches with 4 Number Eleven batsmen.

You just can't do that in Test cricket. It's why his record outside Asia is so catastrophic.

Look at what you now have in place for when the day comes that Misbah is replaced by a qualified and competent Chief Selector:

NUMBER 7: Shadab Khan (leg-spinning all-rounder)

NUMBER 8: REQUIRE PACE BOWLING ALL-ROUNDER - only current option is Faheem Ashraf

NUMBER 9:
a) In Asia - off-spinner who can bat (?????Sajid Khan)
b) Outside Asia - quick bowler EITHER taller than 6'2 OR minimum 6'0 but faster than 140K who can average over 20 as a Test batsman. (Amad Butt?)

NUMBER 10 who can't bat
Shaheen Shah Afridi who is 6'6 tall and bowls 135+

NUMBER 11 who can't bat
Naseem Shah who is 5'9 tall and bowls 140+

The point is, there's no vacancy for Mohammad Hasnain or Sameen Gul or Ehsan Adil unless they massively improve their batting.

Their batting is actually more relevant to this thread than their bowling is.
 
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They could be next Wasim and Waqar combo in the making.. I really like Shaheen..saw him for first time u19 WC against us and straightaway knew he was gonna play international given Pakistani love for left armers and he was very good. Also from whatever I saw till now Shaheen treats naseem like younger brother and I have observed he tries to help him a lot.this is unlike Waseem and Waqar who brought lot of infighting in your team in the 90’s.
Just need to find a seamer who can swing the bowl and a decent spinner plus 2-3 solid batsmen to help them out and get Pakistani cricket back on track. Then this team captained by Babar in future hopefully can challenge any team anywhere.

Both are Pathan kids and supporting each other. When you have similar background and mother tongue, you enjoy each other's company and its easy to develop a friendship bond.
 
If this thread is about Test matches, then we need to understand that both Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah are Genuine Number Elevens.

One of Misbah's most grievous repeat errors is to go into Test matches with 4 Number Eleven batsmen.

You just can't do that in Test cricket. It's why his record outside Asia is so catastrophic.

Look at what you now have in place for when the day comes that Misbah is replaced by a qualified and competent Chief Selector:

NUMBER 7: Shadab Khan (leg-spinning all-rounder)

NUMBER 8: REQUIRE PACE BOWLING ALL-ROUNDER - only current option is Faheem Ashraf

NUMBER 9:
a) In Asia - off-spinner who can bat (?????Sajid Khan)
b) Outside Asia - quick bowler EITHER taller than 6'2 OR minimum 6'0 but faster than 140K who can average over 20 as a Test batsman. (Amad Butt?)

NUMBER 10 who can't bat
Shaheen Shah Afridi who is 6'6 tall and bowls 135+

NUMBER 11 who can't bat
Naseem Shah who is 5'9 tall and bowls 140+

The point is, there's no vacancy for Mohammad Hasnain or Sameen Gul or Ehsan Adil unless they massively improve their batting.

Their batting is actually more relevant to this thread than their bowling is.
So you are recommending 3 bits and pieces players in playing 11. Sorry it won't work
 
Both are Pathan kids and supporting each other. When you have similar background and mother tongue, you enjoy each other's company and its easy to develop a friendship bond.

Yeah, Wasim was from Gilgit and Waqar from Karachi.
 
Both have potential, but just like PCB selectors, fans too have fetish for lanky skiddy kids.

The two together have played a few matches, took a total of 3 wickets in the last test that was lost by 17 wickets in a ground that’s haven for fast bowlers. And now in a historic domestic match, played on tailor-made pitch against a lowly-ranked team that just landed and is cooped up in hotel rooms when not in stadium; the two have got a sum total of 4 wickets over two days. And this is their best outing till date. Pakistan is lucky that bad weather will probably help them draw this match. Pakistan is in no position to win.

My larger point is that these kids are too young and have lots to prove. They look good in odd ball or two and can even get Smith/Kohli on a random day but they will be smashed all around by most batsmen in the world on most days. They should be playing under-19 or under-21. They need to partner better bowlers who can mentor them; not other way around. They are not even close to world class level.

Pakistan famed inventory of fast bowlers can’t be so empty that they have to depend on these raw half-baked kids.
 
So you are recommending 3 bits and pieces players in playing 11. Sorry it won't work
I don't consider that a bits and pieces thing.

Consider Pakistan's 1989-1990 attack at Melbourne - it was probably the best one they've ever had.

There is a sliding scale of batting ability from Imran Khan (who was a medium pacer by then) to Wasim Akram (who hit a century in the next Test) to Mushtaq Ahmed to Waqar Younis to Aaqib Javed.

Not the Misbah style Four Number Elevens.

Now jump forward to New Zealand's attack in Australia.

1. Nobody thinks that Mitchell Santner is the best spinner in the country.

2. Nobody thinks that Colin de Grandhomme is a better fast bowler than Matt Henry.

But they already have Ferguson and Wagner who can't bat and Southee who is just a slogger. The spinner needs to be competent, but his runs with the bat are more important than his bowling. Similarly, de Grandhomme is there so that 230-5 does not quickly collapse to 260 all out in the way that Misbah's endlessly long tails do.
 
If this thread is about Test matches, then we need to understand that both Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah are Genuine Number Elevens.

One of Misbah's most grievous repeat errors is to go into Test matches with 4 Number Eleven batsmen.

You just can't do that in Test cricket. It's why his record outside Asia is so catastrophic.

Look at what you now have in place for when the day comes that Misbah is replaced by a qualified and competent Chief Selector:

NUMBER 7: Shadab Khan (leg-spinning all-rounder)

NUMBER 8: REQUIRE PACE BOWLING ALL-ROUNDER - only current option is Faheem Ashraf

NUMBER 9:
a) In Asia - off-spinner who can bat (?????Sajid Khan)
b) Outside Asia - quick bowler EITHER taller than 6'2 OR minimum 6'0 but faster than 140K who can average over 20 as a Test batsman. (Amad Butt?)

NUMBER 10 who can't bat
Shaheen Shah Afridi who is 6'6 tall and bowls 135+

NUMBER 11 who can't bat
Naseem Shah who is 5'9 tall and bowls 140+

The point is, there's no vacancy for Mohammad Hasnain or Sameen Gul or Ehsan Adil unless they massively improve their batting.

Their batting is actually more relevant to this thread than their bowling is.

Man you have only two infatuations , age and height
 
Both have potential, but just like PCB selectors, fans too have fetish for lanky skiddy kids.

The two together have played a few matches, took a total of 3 wickets in the last test that was lost by 17 wickets in a ground that’s haven for fast bowlers. And now in a historic domestic match, played on tailor-made pitch against a lowly-ranked team that just landed and is cooped up in hotel rooms when not in stadium; the two have got a sum total of 4 wickets over two days. And this is their best outing till date. Pakistan is lucky that bad weather will probably help them draw this match. Pakistan is in no position to win.

My larger point is that these kids are too young and have lots to prove. They look good in odd ball or two and can even get Smith/Kohli on a random day but they will be smashed all around by most batsmen in the world on most days. They should be playing under-19 or under-21. They need to partner better bowlers who can mentor them; not other way around. They are not even close to world class level.

Pakistan famed inventory of fast bowlers can’t be so empty that they have to depend on these raw half-baked kids.
I largely agree, but Shaheen and Naseem are at quite different stages in their development.

Shaheen Shah Afridi is already ready to be a Test match bowler. He can maintain pressure with a stifling line and length, and while he needs to develop his command of seam and swing he would already be an automatic starter in every Test team in the world except perhaps for Australia.

Naseem Shah is a phenomenally gifted young bowler, but his lack of height is going to require him to be in the Top Three Most Accurate Test Quick Bowlers In The World for him to ever have success at international level. That requires incredible amounts of practice, and he simply isn't even close to getting there now. He may never get there.

Waqar started off exactly the same as Naseem Shah. There is footage on YouTube of him bowling at the MCG in his second Test in 1989-90 and it's almost identical to Naseem Shah now. He was pacy and sensational to watch, but he couldn't maintain pressure on the batsman.

It took Waqar a year in county cricket at Surrey to go from being a sensational prospect to being a sensational bowler. And that's because he bowled 500 overs against decent batsmen with a Reader ball on decent wickets.
 
Yeah, Wasim was from Gilgit and Waqar from Karachi.

This has more to do with personalities.. Wasim and Waqar became superstars and probably their team mates also took sides.. man you can produce a good Bollywood masala movie on their rivalry
 
Man you have only two infatuations , age and height
Three.

Speed.

I am not interested in any fast bowler who can't bowl a minimum average speed of 135K. A Mohammad Asif comes up every 60 years.

I'm no different to the Australian selectors. Look at the team standing for the national anthems - their fast bowlers are 6'6, 6'5 and 6'4 and bowl median speeds of 143, 137 and 141.
 
I feel we have the bowler 1 and 2 but the rest are only good to be the 4th pacer in the team.

1. Shinwari: I like that he is hardworking but with his height, his wrist position and his consistency, he is just going to be slightly better than Wahab Riaz. Maybe can be persisted as the 3rd pacer until we find someone better. With one change in tests, he can reverse it at least.

2. Hasnain: Very promising so far. However, I am scared about his action. When he tries to bowl quicker, he has a visible bend in the elbow, much like Shabbir Ahmed. Also his stamina is not there yet for test cricket. Good for T20s but that may just destroy his bowling.

3. Rauf: I have heard bad things about his attitude but that apart, he seems to have the yorkers going for him which sadly have been missing from our bowlers. I am unsure about his Test cricket stamina. Good for T20 or ODIs.

4. Musa: Hardworking but very short. Good for T20.

5. Sameen: Deserves a chance for us to make a proper assessment.
 
If this thread is about Test matches, then we need to understand that both Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah are Genuine Number Elevens.

One of Misbah's most grievous repeat errors is to go into Test matches with 4 Number Eleven batsmen.

You just can't do that in Test cricket. It's why his record outside Asia is so catastrophic.

Look at what you now have in place for when the day comes that Misbah is replaced by a qualified and competent Chief Selector:

NUMBER 7: Shadab Khan (leg-spinning all-rounder)

NUMBER 8: REQUIRE PACE BOWLING ALL-ROUNDER - only current option is Faheem Ashraf

NUMBER 9:
a) In Asia - off-spinner who can bat (?????Sajid Khan)
b) Outside Asia - quick bowler EITHER taller than 6'2 OR minimum 6'0 but faster than 140K who can average over 20 as a Test batsman. (Amad Butt?)

NUMBER 10 who can't bat
Shaheen Shah Afridi who is 6'6 tall and bowls 135+

NUMBER 11 who can't bat
Naseem Shah who is 5'9 tall and bowls 140+

The point is, there's no vacancy for Mohammad Hasnain or Sameen Gul or Ehsan Adil unless they massively improve their batting.

Their batting is actually more relevant to this thread than their bowling is.

Theoretically I agree, practically NO.

Cricket being a 200+ years old English game, still quite conventional - there are basically two philosophies around when it comes to bowling picks/combination. One is the English philosophy, other one is Aussie thought process.

Before explaining both, lets look at some of the ground rules/conditions behind the history. Cricket in England is played in summer, with lots of rain and long, long days, with day temperature/humidity being quite comfortable, air a bit moist as well. In such conditions, often the English tracks are lash green, a bit soft and compact - these wickets helped medium pacers, offered lot more purchase off the wicket and in air. Negative side is, it often took out spinners for most part of the game and it kept bonded for several days. Add to that long summer days, in English counties, 150-160 overs/day was quite common, which demanded extreme work load for bowlers.

Aussies were totally different - hot, dry summer days under scorching sun, hardly any moisture in air; scratched, rock hard surface, large boundaries (because same grounds are used for Aussie rules). And, historically Aussies played cricket hard - they played shorter days (max 90-100 overs/day) but prolonged the game by days (timeless games; 6-7 days long FC games...) - the idea was that bowlers will give everything while playing and come back recharged next day.

For such playing conditions, the two philosophies were born - English Counties (FC teams are actually reflection of National team - when IND used to play 4 spinners, Mumbai had five in their Ranji team, Gavaskar opening the bowling!!!) opted for lots of such all-rounders you have mentioned here; because on favorable conditions, these average bowlers could extract some life from the wicket - bonus was their contribution with bat. And, it was essential to share the work load of 150 overs/day by 6-7 bowlers, 3-4 of them being all-rounders.

Australia was opposite - whoever is picked to bowl, has to make it for the bowling merit first, regardless of batting skills. On those uncompromising conditions, those 20-30 extra runs batting contribution was always useless, if your bowler doesn't make it on bowling merit - medium pacers or part-time spinners will be slaughtered on those rock beds. And, in AUS you'll always have to give it 100 - short, but intense work load in every days. You can manage the daily workload with just 4 bowlers, if all four has the skills and endurance.

So, Aussies always tried the other way - they picked best 4 bowlers and tried to extract as many runs possible from them; while they picked couple of batsmen, who were decent FC level bowlers, just to be used as odd change bowlers, often as a surprise element. For that reason, we have seen several Australian cricketers over the years, who are master of one trade and handy in other one. I can name at least 20 AUS bowlers who would have walked into any other contemporary team as bowler, but could contribute with bat - take a pick - Spofforth, Jimmy Mathews, Hugh Trumble, Vic Saunders, Ranji Horden, Ted McDonald, O'Reilly, IW Johnson, Lille, McDermott, Warne, Lee, Gillespee, Johnson, Cummins, Starc... some were better than mare contribution - George Giffen, Monty Noble, Jack Gregory, Kieth Miller, Benaud, Davidson, Gilmore...... Opposite of the spectrum are Warwick Armstrong, McCartny, Stan McCabe, Bobby Simpson, Doug Walters, Greg Chappell, Steve Waugh, Mark Waugh, Daimen Martyn, Michel Clarke .... even Steve Smith bowls part-time leggi.... Each of those players could have made almost any team of their time for their stronger suit - RK Miller, probably for both!!!

In contrast, I can name at least 50 English cricketers, very good all-rounders at County level, unfortunately bits & pieces at the top level. Most cases these all-rounders are/were very similar to your picks - good bowlers in favorable conditions, and decent batsman. But, their downfall was mainly because of short-fall in their bowling skills, which was exposed once they are out of their tailor made English wickets, under English summer sky. That's one reason, off all cricket records, I value the achievements of Sir Jack Hobbs as highest - in contemporary cricket, on those uncovered English wickets, what he did for years, decades after decades was simply unparalleled, arguably better than a certain 99.94 ....

Now, the suggestion you are giving for PAK team would have worked perfectly in English tours till 1990s, may be even now - but trust me, with "all-rounders" like Shadab & Faheem ..... PAK will definitely lose by an innings to some single Aussie batsman one day!!!! And, in history of the game, I don't think there are more than 7-8 players batting at 9 and averaging over 20, for fast bowlers it's probably even lower - Wasim, Hadlee (hardly batted at 9), Marshall, Berbie, Lee, Vaas and probably (not sure - he made a 76 at 9) Srinath. May be few odd names as well but, if I put a filter of 1000 runs - it probably will come to 3-4 names - Wasim, Broad, Marshall, Lee may be ....... if PAK's No. 9 can match any of those simply with ball, I guess everyone will take that with both hands, without batting contribution.

I am sorry for the long post, but this thread is about PAK's future fast bowlers - not for combination or all-rounders. I had to write this epic not to derail this thread, rather to keep focus on the burning issue - skilled fast bowlers for future. Lets discuss on that, we may discuss the combination in some other thread. Personally, I won't mind if PAK can find 4 pacers like McGrath, WY, Walsh & Bumrah - I'll disregard their batting contribution and play all four, with WY happy at No. 8
 
I don't consider that a bits and pieces thing.

Consider Pakistan's 1989-1990 attack at Melbourne - it was probably the best one they've ever had.

There is a sliding scale of batting ability from Imran Khan (who was a medium pacer by then) to Wasim Akram (who hit a century in the next Test) to Mushtaq Ahmed to Waqar Younis to Aaqib Javed.

Not the Misbah style Four Number Elevens.

Now jump forward to New Zealand's attack in Australia.

1. Nobody thinks that Mitchell Santner is the best spinner in the country.

2. Nobody thinks that Colin de Grandhomme is a better fast bowler than Matt Henry.

But they already have Ferguson and Wagner who can't bat and Southee who is just a slogger. The spinner needs to be competent, but his runs with the bat are more important than his bowling. Similarly, de Grandhomme is there so that 230-5 does not quickly collapse to 260 all out in the way that Misbah's endlessly long tails do.

Wrong example - please don't use this one. In that Test, two different class of players were playing - one had 21 players with Imran, Border, Javed, Alderman, Steve, Boon, Jones, Hughes, WY ..... other class had one player - Wasim Akram. You had seen that Test I believe, and his bowling; I don't think it was his batting that was key there - even if had he batted at No. 22, I believe he would have been the MoM for that Test.

Other 3 were worse batsman that time than what Shaheen or Abbas is now - Shaeen at least can swing bat, and Abbas has a good forward defense. Before going to Counties, WY was a batting rabbit, and Aquib at rat .....

I don't think Mushi played in that Test - he debuted at Adelaide :). Qadir was supposed to play, but he was injured, so Tauseef (?) played - but again, Abdul Qadir wasn't picked for his batting contribution, rather, he could bowl a bit as well.

The problem that PAK now facing is that, their bowlers are lazy, have taken their PAK cap as granted - otherwise Amir, Wahab, Gul, Yasir, Sohail.... had enough skills & potential to be a 18-19 average Test batsman. And, that's what is critical in a Test team - batting contribution from automatic choice bowlers; not other way - pick bowlers for their batting.
 
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Theoretically I agree, practically NO.

Cricket being a 200+ years old English game, still quite conventional - there are basically two philosophies around when it comes to bowling picks/combination. One is the English philosophy, other one is Aussie thought process.

Before explaining both, lets look at some of the ground rules/conditions behind the history. Cricket in England is played in summer, with lots of rain and long, long days, with day temperature/humidity being quite comfortable, air a bit moist as well. In such conditions, often the English tracks are lash green, a bit soft and compact - these wickets helped medium pacers, offered lot more purchase off the wicket and in air. Negative side is, it often took out spinners for most part of the game and it kept bonded for several days. Add to that long summer days, in English counties, 150-160 overs/day was quite common, which demanded extreme work load for bowlers.

Aussies were totally different - hot, dry summer days under scorching sun, hardly any moisture in air; scratched, rock hard surface, large boundaries (because same grounds are used for Aussie rules). And, historically Aussies played cricket hard - they played shorter days (max 90-100 overs/day) but prolonged the game by days (timeless games; 6-7 days long FC games...) - the idea was that bowlers will give everything while playing and come back recharged next day.

For such playing conditions, the two philosophies were born - English Counties (FC teams are actually reflection of National team - when IND used to play 4 spinners, Mumbai had five in their Ranji team, Gavaskar opening the bowling!!!) opted for lots of such all-rounders you have mentioned here; because on favorable conditions, these average bowlers could extract some life from the wicket - bonus was their contribution with bat. And, it was essential to share the work load of 150 overs/day by 6-7 bowlers, 3-4 of them being all-rounders.

Australia was opposite - whoever is picked to bowl, has to make it for the bowling merit first, regardless of batting skills. On those uncompromising conditions, those 20-30 extra runs batting contribution was always useless, if your bowler doesn't make it on bowling merit - medium pacers or part-time spinners will be slaughtered on those rock beds. And, in AUS you'll always have to give it 100 - short, but intense work load in every days. You can manage the daily workload with just 4 bowlers, if all four has the skills and endurance.

So, Aussies always tried the other way - they picked best 4 bowlers and tried to extract as many runs possible from them; while they picked couple of batsmen, who were decent FC level bowlers, just to be used as odd change bowlers, often as a surprise element. For that reason, we have seen several Australian cricketers over the years, who are master of one trade and handy in other one. I can name at least 20 AUS bowlers who would have walked into any other contemporary team as bowler, but could contribute with bat - take a pick - Spofforth, Jimmy Mathews, Hugh Trumble, Vic Saunders, Ranji Horden, Ted McDonald, O'Reilly, IW Johnson, Lille, McDermott, Warne, Lee, Gillespee, Johnson, Cummins, Starc... some were better than mare contribution - George Giffen, Monty Noble, Jack Gregory, Kieth Miller, Benaud, Davidson, Gilmore...... Opposite of the spectrum are Warwick Armstrong, McCartny, Stan McCabe, Bobby Simpson, Doug Walters, Greg Chappell, Steve Waugh, Mark Waugh, Daimen Martyn, Michel Clarke .... even Steve Smith bowls part-time leggi.... Each of those players could have made almost any team of their time for their stronger suit - RK Miller, probably for both!!!

In contrast, I can name at least 50 English cricketers, very good all-rounders at County level, unfortunately bits & pieces at the top level. Most cases these all-rounders are/were very similar to your picks - good bowlers in favorable conditions, and decent batsman. But, their downfall was mainly because of short-fall in their bowling skills, which was exposed once they are out of their tailor made English wickets, under English summer sky. That's one reason, off all cricket records, I value the achievements of Sir Jack Hobbs as highest - in contemporary cricket, on those uncovered English wickets, what he did for years, decades after decades was simply unparalleled, arguably better than a certain 99.94 ....

Now, the suggestion you are giving for PAK team would have worked perfectly in English tours till 1990s, may be even now - but trust me, with "all-rounders" like Shadab & Faheem ..... PAK will definitely lose by an innings to some single Aussie batsman one day!!!! And, in history of the game, I don't think there are more than 7-8 players batting at 9 and averaging over 20, for fast bowlers it's probably even lower - Wasim, Hadlee (hardly batted at 9), Marshall, Berbie, Lee, Vaas and probably (not sure - he made a 76 at 9) Srinath. May be few odd names as well but, if I put a filter of 1000 runs - it probably will come to 3-4 names - Wasim, Broad, Marshall, Lee may be ....... if PAK's No. 9 can match any of those simply with ball, I guess everyone will take that with both hands, without batting contribution.

I am sorry for the long post, but this thread is about PAK's future fast bowlers - not for combination or all-rounders. I had to write this epic not to derail this thread, rather to keep focus on the burning issue - skilled fast bowlers for future. Lets discuss on that, we may discuss the combination in some other thread. Personally, I won't mind if PAK can find 4 pacers like McGrath, WY, Walsh & Bumrah - I'll disregard their batting contribution and play all four, with WY happy at No. 8

Reading this post felt like watching an intriguing documentary. Excellent write-up as always.
 
[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] you should write a book the representation in most of your post with details is incredible.
 
Nice post [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

Do you not agree though that Santner and De Grandhomme are selected because in a five man attack, two need to be sound batsmen?

I don’t support useless all-rounders.

But I think that Shadab and Faheem are “good enough”.
 
Nice post [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

Do you not agree though that Santner and De Grandhomme are selected because in a five man attack, two need to be sound batsmen?

I don’t support useless all-rounders.

But I think that Shadab and Faheem are “good enough”.

Your last line is where you are wrong both of these guys are bad in all facets except shadab who is good at fielding
 
Nice post [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

Do you not agree though that Santner and De Grandhomme are selected because in a five man attack, two need to be sound batsmen?

I don’t support useless all-rounders.

But I think that Shadab and Faheem are “good enough”.
Santner is NZ best spinner irrespective of his batting.
 
Naseem and shaheen opening bowling should be playing when fit

Harris Rauf,sameen gull,husnain and shinwari

And all rounders ammad butt,amir yamin ,ashraf if he improves batting
 
Naseem Shah needs to prove himself.

After Australia tour and now his decent spell so far in the Test against SL, I can safely say Shaheen is the leader of our bowling attack. He is the only bowler who fits in the playing XI of every format.

I would prefer a bowling all rounder (Fahim or Amad or Hammad or even Yamin) and a spin all rounder (Sajid or Nawaz or Shadab) at 9 and 10.
 
Naseem Shah needs to prove himself.

After Australia tour and now his decent spell so far in the Test against SL, I can safely say Shaheen is the leader of our bowling attack. He is the only bowler who fits in the playing XI of every format.

I would prefer a bowling all rounder (Fahim or Amad or Hammad or even Yamin) and a spin all rounder (Sajid or Nawaz or Shadab) at 9 and 10.

Great news the 20 year old got even younger today, Rameez is now saying he is 16.
 
Naseem has a lot to prove. I don’t think he’s ready for test cricket yet
 
Shaheen Afridi opening the bowling with Arshad Iqbal. Naseem Shah as first change. Overseas, 4th seamer is Amad Butt. That is a quality 4 man pace attack.
 
It's exactly the problem I observed when I was next to him in the hotel lobby in Adelaide three weeks ago.

He's too short. He is incredibly talented, but he's too short to be a fast bowler - he is always going to leak runs when the ball goes soft.
 
It's exactly the problem I observed when I was next to him in the hotel lobby in Adelaide three weeks ago.

He's too short. He is incredibly talented, but he's too short to be a fast bowler - he is always going to leak runs when the ball goes soft.

Ok He should quit playing cricket as he’s too short
 
It's exactly the problem I observed when I was next to him in the hotel lobby in Adelaide three weeks ago.

He's too short. He is incredibly talented, but he's too short to be a fast bowler - he is always going to leak runs when the ball goes soft.

Didn’t you also say he could barely walk?
 
At this point Naseem Shah needs to get going to be a proper help for Shaheen - Others can follow later.
 
Naseem Shah needs a lot of work on his lengths. Needs to go back to domestic for a lot of hard work.
 
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Would like to see Sameen Gul given a chance.
Also have option of giving Hassnain a go.
Harris Rauf was bowling at 148km/h for Melbourne Stars.I believe Rauf,Hasnain and Sameen should part of Pakistan team.They have the pace.If the cany swing the ball and bowl yorkers at will then they will be very good bowlers.
 
It's exactly the problem I observed when I was next to him in the hotel lobby in Adelaide three weeks ago.

He's too short. He is incredibly talented, but he's too short to be a fast bowler - he is always going to leak runs when the ball goes soft.

Do you know what his height might be? Are we talking 5'10"?
 
And to think some people were critising Naseem. Lol
You just have to watch him bowl.
ON TOPIC : Haris Rauf should be a shoe in for the limited overs side.
 
And to think some people were critising Naseem. Lol
You just have to watch him bowl.
ON TOPIC : Haris Rauf should be a shoe in for the limited overs side.

Naseem is the best talent since Amir. IA he stays fit, doesn't fall into the trappings of a celebrity lifestyle and stays away from Ind bookies. We have a gem
 
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I am not sure why my post was deleted but Naseem is the best talent since Amir. IA he stays fit, doesn't fall into the trappings of a celebrity lifestyle and stays away from Ind bookies. We have a gem

He bowls 143 kph bowl after bowl that too in test cricket effortlessly with a bolt upright seam all at a very young age.
I agree about him being the best talent after Amir
Pakistani fans are just too emotional.
 
He bowls 143 kph bowl after bowl that too in test cricket effortlessly with a bolt upright seam all at a very young age.
I agree about him being the best talent after Amir
Pakistani fans are just too emotional.

I had seen little of him until this series bar the cliipngs on YouTube and like many I was weary of him because of his height but he bowis a heavy ball and has a high action. And Unlike Hasnain, he has a great seam. Patience is the need of the hour.
 
Naseem is pretty awful at the moment

Hope you and the others who called for Naseem to be sent back to domestic have learnt your lesson and stop coming up with such knee jerk reactions. Pathetic how there is zero patience from so called fans.
 
Naseem needs to bowl fuller and into the wicket. Yhe field coach should work with the players standing in slips and gully. Whatever flies into the slips Pakistani fielders drop 70% of the chances.
 
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